"Condi builds are easier to play" and the widely accepted truth of how and why. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

"Condi builds are easier to play" and the widely accepted truth of how and why.

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  • Sampson.2403Sampson.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    Lol at everyone who is saying that condi mirage isn't busted. For 95% ot the player base, mirage is busted for sure and thats why i play it xD.

    Power mirage was busted too before the recent confounding suggestion nerf. Oof those were the days, loved that build.

    For the other 5% of the player base (the elite players) they're on another level and their world of what's busted is completely different which is why they say mirage isnt OP.

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    The viability/strength of anything in the PvP area of the game can change extremely quickly and easily if you adjust how much telegraph it has.

    I don't think that anyone is complaining that this or that has too much damage so much as the meta consists entirely of ensuring your opponent can react as little as possible to what you're doing - hence mirage, Steal, and the relevance of Quickness.

    Small example. What if Mesmers didn't count as a clone for Shatters anymore, and that damage was moved over to their clones? Same damage, no more instant cast on part of the damage.

    Of course, the lackluster information provided by the combat log and death recap certainly contribute. As a general rule, I despise FPS games, but I can at least acknowledge they did one thing right - kill cams. Glorious concept.

    Hell, the combat log won't even tell me what I got CC'ed by...and eles STILL have to deal with the stupid 'Mist form dealt 20k damage'...????? Ridiculous.

  • Fail to avoid a power attack, instant chunk of health gone.
    Fail to avoid giant red AOE circles on the ground (scourge) or clones running towards you (mesmer), etc., you can still cleanse or pop resistance/invuln and let the condis tick, avoiding most or all damage.
    But condi is easier to play (do damage with)? Really?

    How often do the only two viable condi builds in sPvP take the top damage stat? Anecdotally, I usually see that going to warriors, thieves, and engineers (holosmith)--all power builds.

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 1, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fail to avoid a power attack, instant chunk of health gone.
    Fail to avoid giant red AOE circles on the ground (scourge) or clones running towards you (mesmer), etc., you can still cleanse or pop resistance/invuln and let the condis tick, avoiding most or all damage.
    But condi is easier to play (do damage with)? Really?

    How often do the only two viable condi builds in sPvP take the top damage stat? Anecdotally, I usually see that going to warriors, thieves, and engineers (holosmith)--all power builds.

    Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run DPS warrior or thief, my bets that he won't be above 1000 after 150-200 games. Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run scourge and to directly go mid and spam AoE's, my bets he will be around 1100-1200 after 150-200 games.

    People aren't saying condi is easier to play than DPS generally. People say condi is easier because it's much more complicated to deal with conditions from a 5v5 point of view than dealing with physical damage.

  • @Abazigal.3679

    The most frequent complaints, in this thread at least, seem to be that "condi is easier" because:

    • They have less obvious animations
    • Cover conditions can give primary conditions more chance to stick

    What is so readily forgotten, it seems, is the damage over time nature of condition damage. This means that builds that rely almost exclusively on conditions for dealing damage must have some way to make them (1) land, and (2) stick. These requirements are basically addressed by the two common complaints above.

    People forget, or worse, ignore, the ample, arguably overtuned, condition cleanse and resistance in the game, which completely negate condition damage, on top of evades and invulnerabilities that negate all types of damage. Direct damage, by contrast, only has one chance to be avoided, and that's at initial application. It can be mitigated by toughness and boons, but so long as it connects, it will do decent damage--instantly.

    So according to the complainers: Relying entirely on the chance that some of one's condition application survives dodges, evades, resistance, reflection, boon conversion, and cleanse, to eventually shave off some of an opponent's health over time (during which they are still free to fight back or run), is "easy mode". But going around spamming physical strikes or projectiles that do instant damage is not.

    The fact there are only two viable condi builds that stand a chance of keeping up with the far more numerous power builds speaks for itself. Condi is not inherently easier. If anything, its damage is more negatable. Those complaining about it just need to figure that out.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    At this point I do have to agree that conditions in general aren't exactly the issue, I do think they need to take another look at some of the Condition stats that are too tanky while still letting condis melt opponents (trailblazer and other hybrid setups), but all in all my personal issue, as was iterated on by Grimjack, is that Mirage has way, way too many sustain/survival options that make them difficult enough to kill already while being able to still apply these conditions. This is true for their power builds as well.

    Typically even if you do get an opportunity to land a CC on them, through timing around their evades/dodges and stunbreaks then they will still just pop Mirage Cloak and evade for the duration of the CC. Thats...not appropriate functionality for how this game works. You should feel rewarded for actually landing a CC and the Mirage should feel punished for having their skills played around but that simply is not the case right now and that needs to be looked at. Keep Mirage Cloak, fine, but don't let Mirages use it while CC'd. That is all I'd ask.

  • @Abazigal.3679 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fail to avoid a power attack, instant chunk of health gone.
    Fail to avoid giant red AOE circles on the ground (scourge) or clones running towards you (mesmer), etc., you can still cleanse or pop resistance/invuln and let the condis tick, avoiding most or all damage.
    But condi is easier to play (do damage with)? Really?

    How often do the only two viable condi builds in sPvP take the top damage stat? Anecdotally, I usually see that going to warriors, thieves, and engineers (holosmith)--all power builds.

    Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run DPS warrior or thief, my bets that he won't be above 1000 after 150-200 games. Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run scourge and to directly go mid and spam AoE's, my bets he will be around 1100-1200 after 150-200 games.

    People aren't saying condi is easier to play than DPS generally. People say condi is easier because it's much more complicated to deal with conditions from a 5v5 point of view than dealing with physical damage.

    Most bronzers don't even know what a condi cleanse is though. So of course they aren't going to do well against it. They don't even know what the conditions are! These are ranking below our lovely botters. I mean, really.

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    So they are easier to play but not viable. Got it...

    I think the peoblem is that the game has only these type of players left.

    Condi right now is much worse than power. Only 2 condi builds are meta.

    Easier or harder not much difference, nor does that difference make any difference.

    Its not like condi scourge is meta because its easy.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players.

    It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves.

    Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

    Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.
    Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap
    Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.
    Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault.

    Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

    All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations
    Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities
    Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

    TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

    Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2.

    Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself?

    Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs.

    It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op.

    Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land .

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players.

    It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves.

    Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

    Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.
    Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap
    Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.
    Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault.

    Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

    All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations
    Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities
    Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

    TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

    Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2.

    Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself?

    Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs.

    It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op.

    Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land .

    You realize being easy to play and being overpowered are two extremely different concepts right?

    You are literally attacking my post for a point I wasn't even making.

    Chill the f*** out and reflect on your life choices.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2019

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    I think part of the problem is that the only viable condi builds are also the worst offenders as far as spam. Mirage, thief, and necro tend to have the most spamming as far as condis go. Other classes that could do condi (engineer, warrior, guardian, ranger, ele) simply are not viable in higher tiers because it's super easy to cleanse/counter them. Plague signet on necro alone invalidates a lot of other condi builds.

    I still play condi engi. Given the amount of cleanse in the game, I basically have to land my risky melee medium-cooldown burst 5 or 6 times in a fight to kill most classes. They only have to land their power burst once.

    THEN I have to wait for the condi to tick while they have another opportunity to counterattack.

    AND I can't even run tanky stats like dire/trailblazer to make up for this disadvantage.

    AND I am super vulnerable to Necro staff 4, the transfer signet, the transfer trait, etc.

    AND I can't make any damage stick at all if there is a support class cleansing everyone in addition to players' personal cleanse (which is already high).

    It's pretty stacked in favour of power right now .. at least from my perspective.

    Yep, and these problems stem back for a long time. I ran condi engineer pre-HoT, and even then a decent necro could end me no problem. It is way worse now, since classes are stacking tons of cleanse or resistance. At least back then, resistance and cleanses were much rarer/less effective.

    Classes that are the worst offenders as far as condi spam (mirage, thief, scourge) are making this kind of insane cleansing necessary, which pushes out all other condi builds.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Once again this debate pop out on the forum and once again the same arguments are made with people in favour of condi build taking the long oversused emotianal stance playing the well known victim card...why do people insist of using the same arguments to support their claims instead than use actual facts? Could it be that there are no facts to support claims like the one in the OP?

    The first question which pop into my mind everytime I see these type of threads is : Why do you like condi this bad? , there must be an actual reason beyond this choice and for me really the answer is clear : Playstyle, below I will list the reasons I believe why people love the condi playstyle in GW2, I am using actual facts and if somebody disagree with them I'd love to know why.

    1) Passive Playstyle

    • Playing a condi build in GW2 allows the user to enter a passive stance by forcing the opponent to take the initiative otherwise they'd die easily, the condi user can afford to play the "waiting game" , approach the game from a "fire and forget" point of view , the most simplistic tactic

    2) Complete lack of counter condis/boons
    -There are condi dimishing the dmg ratio of power builds ( weakness ) but there is nothing for condis , there are boons who diminish the efficacy of power build and they are available in ample supply for every class (protection/regen) . boons like 'retaliation' straight out dmg back the attacker...again there is nothing that works against condi builds : condi player can keep launching attacks without ever worrying to check their bar or what boons the enemy has ....yeah we have 'resistance' but this boon not only comes in a scarce quantity but can be also easily stripped

    3) No base line stat that reduce dmg from condis

    • If I build a toughness tank ..I automatically counterplay the vast majority of power builds, some become semi-redudant....what can I use against condis? I either have condi clear off CD or I die, simple as that

    4) Insta cast aoe attacks, range AA

    • the application of condis: it's instant , it's aoe and it's on low CD ..finally several low CD skills apply several condis on the same target , on the other hand the vast majority of condi clears skill/trait only deal with 1-2 condis and most time they will deal with the less threatening ones and here we go back to point 1 : "the waiting game" ,.

    5) Some condis do too much and are too readily available

    -Confusion : punish the enemy for any action - tick dmg over time - stack in intensity for massive dmg spikes and mesmers can easily keep up to 10 stacks at any given time with zero effort

    -Torment : same as confusion only it punishes the enemy for moving, again mesmer can stack this condition quite reliably and together with confusion

    -Chill : increase CD , slow movements

    These 3 condis in particular do too much and can be too easily reapplied

    -Conclusion-

    With all that said and done, what else there would be to say? ...ha yes...let me add a comment from the now departed @Jon Peters, after the condi update in Jan 2015.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3awv25/things_we_know_jon_peters/

    The thread was on the official forum but for some reason it has been removed...but anyway do condi players really wish to keep up with the conversation? I mean condis were updated with PvE in mind and they ended up ruining PvP/WvW ....yes condi builds are way easier to play than power, just gave you the raw facts, I'd love to see condi players to argue against them

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:
    People say they don't have enough cleanse precisely because they don't dodge the applications. It's like saying you don't have enough armor because you repeatedly take direct damage to the face without trying to avoid it.

    And I think the reason why this is the case is simple; most players don't know which skills that apply damaging conditions actually hit hard because they don't pay attention to where the stacks come from. They just notice them once they're already stacked up, and by then, it's probably too late.

    Ok..so I must dodge this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Axes_of_Symmetry...then this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jaunt...then this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chaos_Storm or eat the shatter once I am chilled and ohh..meantime I need to dodge also the confusion shatters and ambush https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Imaginary_Axes...now let me count all the dodges so far..1...2...4...5...6....jesus christ..yeah you said to dodge all the application of condis like I'd dodge a GS f1...good thing then that..I don't need 5+ dodges to avoid death against a warrior...I love how condi players keep up with the hyperboles...

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

    "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

    -lesser smite 20s CD traited
    -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited
    -Smite condi is 16 CD
    - CoP is 32s CD traited
    - RF is 84s CD
    -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

    How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players.

    It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves.

    Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

    Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.
    Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap
    Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.
    Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault.

    Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

    All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations
    Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities
    Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

    TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

    Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2.

    Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself?

    Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs.

    It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op.

    Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land .

    You realize being easy to play and being overpowered are two extremely different concepts right?

    You are literally attacking my post for a point I wasn't even making.

    Chill the f*** out and reflect on your life choices.

    If you think scourge is easy to play on a high level... Well there's no helping then.
    But mindlessly spamming shade abilities, will make you loose 100% of the fights against good players. Also you have to be very good at positioning,
    And if you don't have a firebrand that's holding hands with you all the time, you will have a very hard time and don't think scourge is easy to play.

    I know many players that think, scourge is easy to play, faceroll, but when they meet another scourge/firebrand combo, with a good scourge that doesn't mindlessly spam, they always loose.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

    "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

    -lesser smite 20s CD traited
    -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited
    -Smite condi is 16 CD
    - CoP is 32s CD traited
    - RF is 84s CD
    -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

    How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

    Long enough depending on skill. I'm not just some random pleb that has come to that conclusion either.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

    "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

    -lesser smite 20s CD traited
    -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited
    -Smite condi is 16 CD
    - CoP is 32s CD traited
    - RF is 84s CD
    -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

    How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

    Long enough depending on skill. I'm not just some random pleb that has come to that conclusion either.

    It seems that you judge professions based on how you fare against them 1v1...isn't that the basis of a biased opinion?

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    And in team fights its even harder to keep up the condis.

    You have a real problem with condi. Did something really dramatic hapoen to you?

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    And you big essay Arheundel.6451. wow. You a politician or something?

    Can you say what you said without considering mesmer and necro? Like does your opinion change about condi at all?

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

    "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

    -lesser smite 20s CD traited
    -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited
    -Smite condi is 16 CD
    - CoP is 32s CD traited
    - RF is 84s CD
    -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

    How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

    You want them to be immune?? Lol

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    [...]...why do people insist of using the same arguments to support their claims instead than use actual facts? [...]

    Why do you do it?

    1) Passive Playstyle

    • Playing a condi build in GW2 allows the user to enter a passive stance by forcing the opponent to take the initiative otherwise they'd die easily, the condi user can afford to play the "waiting game" , approach the game from a "fire and forget" point of view , the most simplistic tactic

    Power is even more "fire and forget" because once the dmg is dealt, there is no way for the enemy to undo it. This can go as far as straight oneshots. Meanwhile for condi builds landing hard hitting skills alone means nothing, because the dmg might just get cleansed or outhealed, so constant reapplication of condis is mandatory. And this requires the player to do something - or with other words "to be active".

    2) Complete lack of counter condis/boons
    -There are condi dimishing the dmg ratio of power builds ( weakness ) but there is nothing for condis , there are boons who diminish the efficacy of power build and they are available in ample supply for every class (protection/regen) . boons like 'retaliation' straight out dmg back the attacker...again there is nothing that works against condi builds : condi player can keep launching attacks without ever worrying to check their bar or what boons the enemy has ....yeah we have 'resistance' but this boon not only comes in a scarce quantity but can be also easily stripped

    Retaliation is stronger on power builds, but not stronger against power builds, because the dmg scales with the power of the source, so this boon provides an advantage for power builds actually. Weakness and protection are usually stronger vs Power. Resistance is stronger vs Condi. Yes, the latter is less common, but also way more powerful - even weakness and protection together don't come close to 100% dmg reduction. Boonstrip is irrelevant for this argument, because it is not that common - unlike condi remove to counter weakness - and affects all boons (otherwise you might aswell note that protection and retaliation are easily removed).

    3) No base line stat that reduce dmg from condis

    • If I build a toughness tank ..I automatically counterplay the vast majority of power builds, some become semi-redudant....what can I use against condis? I either have condi clear off CD or I die, simple as that

    Toughness alone doesn't counter power builds. It reduces their dmg, but doesn't negate it. If you don't use additional defensive means, you are going to die, no matter how much toughness you stack. Just like cleanses reduce the dmg of condi builds but aren't (and shouldn't be!) your only defense. And that reduction can be much greater than the dmg reduction from toughness if utilized well. Additionally healing is more effective vs condi, because the dmg over time nature of condition damage grants more time for healing to do work, so to some extent healing power could be considered an anti condi stat.

    4) Insta cast aoe attacks, range AA

    • the application of condis: it's instant , it's aoe and it's on low CD ..finally several low CD skills apply several condis on the same target , on the other hand the vast majority of condi clears skill/trait only deal with 1-2 condis and most time they will deal with the less threatening ones and here we go back to point 1 : "the waiting game" ,.

    Condi skills are not in general aoe/instant/low casttime/low CD/ranged/whatever. Power skills are not always telegraphed/single target/long cd/melee/ ... The fact that most meta builds are power indicates that power skills are on average better than condi skills. There might be some exceptions, but those don't represent a general rule.

    5) Some condis do too much and are too readily available

    -Confusion : punish the enemy for any action - tick dmg over time - stack in intensity for massive dmg spikes and mesmers can easily keep up to 10 stacks at any given time with zero effort

    -Torment : same as confusion only it punishes the enemy for moving, again mesmer can stack this condition quite reliably and together with confusion

    -Chill : increase CD , slow movements

    These 3 condis in particular do too much and can be too easily reapplied

    Torment and confusion only do one thing - damage. That dmg can sometimes be reduced even without using any cooldowns - by not spamming skills or running arround like a headless chicken. Additionally those conditions are aviable in significant amounts only to a few classes.

    Chill doesn't deal dmg and therefore is utilized by power builds just as well. In fact current meta condi builds (mirage, scourge) have little to no chill application unlike some common power builds.

    Also many power skills do more than one thing.

    [....] yes condi builds are way easier to play than power, just gave you the raw facts, I'd love to see condi players to argue against them

    Done (by a mostly "power player" btw)

    Also to answer your initial question "why people like condi builds". They add variety, which makes the game more interresting.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It sounds like certain people are conflating "condi builds" with "condi mirage".

    That's not surprising, since condi mesmer is basically the only viable condi build at the moment. However, there are a ton of other condi builds that would love to be playable.. just to list a few:

    condi ranger
    condi engi
    condi revenant
    condi guard
    etc.

    Those are NOT passive playstyle builds. Generally they take even more risk, having lower range, taking longer to deal damage, and with similar amounts of defense compared to their power counterparts. On top of that, there is TONS of cleanse out there nullifying their burst all day.

  • Amaranthe.3578Amaranthe.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Way too long. Nobody is going to read all of that.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Just going to bring up my previous essay about condition damage for speed. Condition Cleanses are seriously overtuned at this point because they've been in an arms race against two builds with the most cover and damaging conditions in the game rather than being balanced around the 1-3 condition damage spread of the other condition damage builds that could potentially be run.

    "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

    -lesser smite 20s CD traited
    -Virtue of resolve is 25s CD traited
    -Smite condi is 16 CD
    - CoP is 32s CD traited
    - RF is 84s CD
    -There is no second virtue of resolve as guardians take Glacial heart...

    How long do you think a guard can keep up with the barrage of condis?...Even a condi weaver would eventually win

    Long enough depending on skill. I'm not just some random pleb that has come to that conclusion either.

    It seems that you judge professions based on how you fare against them 1v1...isn't that the basis of a biased opinion?

    No? I never said Core Guardian was over powered. I just said they can kill a condition mirage fairly comfortably. I think it fits into the meta in a nice way and doesn't feel too dominant, has interesting strengths and weaknesses. I'm only picking on Core Guardian because it's on the extreme end of condition cleansing but almost every class now is loaded with enough condition cleanses to make anything that's not a condition mirage or scourge completely nonviable.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:

    @Abazigal.3679 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Fail to avoid a power attack, instant chunk of health gone.
    Fail to avoid giant red AOE circles on the ground (scourge) or clones running towards you (mesmer), etc., you can still cleanse or pop resistance/invuln and let the condis tick, avoiding most or all damage.
    But condi is easier to play (do damage with)? Really?

    How often do the only two viable condi builds in sPvP take the top damage stat? Anecdotally, I usually see that going to warriors, thieves, and engineers (holosmith)--all power builds.

    Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run DPS warrior or thief, my bets that he won't be above 1000 after 150-200 games. Ask someone that never played PvP in bronze to run scourge and to directly go mid and spam AoE's, my bets he will be around 1100-1200 after 150-200 games.

    People aren't saying condi is easier to play than DPS generally. People say condi is easier because it's much more complicated to deal with conditions from a 5v5 point of view than dealing with physical damage.

    Most bronzers don't even know what a condi cleanse is though. So of course they aren't going to do well against it. They don't even know what the conditions are! These are ranking below our lovely botters. I mean, really.

    That's also because there are close to no counters generally to condi spamming, and because the true counter is usually to have 5 teammates that know how to play against condis. I've lost many games against 2 terrible scourges because we had players that simply had no idea how to handle these builds.

    Even supposed skills to counter conditions aren't working well. Berserker Stance as an example. In theory, you would believe the skill will make you immune to conditions for x seconds, but in pratic, everyone knows how it work.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    [...]...why do people insist of using the same arguments to support their claims instead than use actual facts? [...]

    Why do you do it?

    Power is even more "fire and forget" because once the dmg is dealt, there is no way for the enemy to undo it. This can go as far as straight oneshots. Meanwhile for condi builds landing hard hitting skills alone means nothing, because the dmg might just get cleansed or outhealed, so constant reapplication of condis is mandatory. And this requires the player to do something - or with other words "to be active".

    Firee and forget? Sure..I take any class and I can recollect from your burst in no time from 20% Hp I go back to 100% easy peazy, what are you talking about? enemy can't undo direct dmg?..with an ele you do 1 dodge and you're back to full HP

    Retaliation is stronger on power builds, but not stronger against power builds, because the dmg scales with the power of the source, so this boon provides an advantage for power builds actually. Weakness and protection are usually stronger vs Power. Resistance is stronger vs Condi. Yes, the latter is less common, but also way more powerful - even weakness and protection together don't come close to 100% dmg reduction. Boonstrip is irrelevant for this argument, because it is not that common - unlike condi remove to counter weakness - and affects all boons (otherwise you might aswell note that protection and retaliation are easily removed).

    >

    And your point is? You basically repeated my same sentence.....

    Toughness alone doesn't counter power builds. It reduces their dmg, but doesn't negate it. If you don't use additional defensive means, you are going to die, no matter how much toughness you stack. Just like cleanses reduce the dmg of condi builds but aren't (and shouldn't be!) your only defense. And that reduction can be much greater than the dmg reduction from toughness if utilized well. Additionally healing is more effective vs condi, because the dmg over time nature of condition damage grants more time for healing to do work, so to some extent healing power could be considered an anti condi stat.

    Playing semantic? yeah obviously toughness doesn't hardcounter power...it reduces it, what stat again reduce condi dmg?

    Condi skills are not in general aoe/instant/low casttime/low CD/ranged/whatever. Power skills are not always telegraphed/single target/long cd/melee/ ... The fact that most meta builds are power indicates that power skills are on average better than condi skills. There might be some exceptions, but those don't represent a general rule.

    Other classes haven't got eazy mode condi build like necro and mesmer...they play what they can

    Torment and confusion only do one thing - damage. That dmg can sometimes be reduced even without using any cooldowns - by not spamming skills or running arround like a headless chicken. Additionally those conditions are aviable in significant amounts only to a few classes.

    Chill doesn't deal dmg and therefore is utilized by power builds just as well. In fact current meta condi builds (mirage, scourge) have little to no chill application unlike some common power builds.

    Also many power skills do more than one thing.

    No power spec punishes you for moving or using a skill and...you suggest people not to move or do anything at all to "neutralise" the effects of torment and confusion, nice move

    Done (by a mostly "power player" btw)

    Also to answer your initial question "why people like condi builds". They add variety, which makes the game more interresting.

    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2019

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players.

    It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves.

    Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

    Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.
    Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap
    Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.
    Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault.

    Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

    All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations
    Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities
    Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

    TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

    Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2.

    Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself?

    Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs.

    It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op.

    Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land .

    You realize being easy to play and being overpowered are two extremely different concepts right?

    You are literally attacking my post for a point I wasn't even making.

    Chill the f*** out and reflect on your life choices.

    Condis need to hurt and for slow damage to work everyone, and that means mirage and scourge need to be nerfed., and then those classes need to have sustain and duration in their builds to have their sustain not be sacrificed while doing condi dmg slowly, which means scourge will need to be buffed in a way that it doesnt have to sacrifice too much dmg in condi so it can slowly kill people, and have the survivability to land a kill slowly.You would need conditions to be a lot longer, and bleeds would either have to be in a bit more quantity over burns so it can hurt, or it would have to be reworked in some way that something else is included, such as stamina is being lost while bleeding.

    Right now, having slow condi dmg is practically useless, because everyone can 1 shot you with burst that is doing 20 to 30k dmg, even reaper can practically one shot people if you cc someone like a warr which has a lot of health, and just spam 1 and 3.

    Scourge can put out a bit of burn and torment with torch, and some poison and bleeds with wand, but not nearly enough to kill someone before you die. Also, keep in mind that boon corrupt is putting out a lot of condis as well, since you are corrupting boons into conditions as scourge, and you have fairly high amount of it.

    I swear nobody will be happy until the opposite class of theirs is completely useless and can only stand still and take dmg and die, making the game pointless for the opposite class.

    People been whining about necros, eles, thieves, warriors, mesmers etc.

    Look at the nerfs to thieves, they are getting nerfed to death because of deadeye.
    Look at how people are still crying for more nerfs to chrono and mirage even if they already got nerfed, and they want mesmers to be completely useless.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    So necro and mesmer are the problem. Its not like wvw has huge problems with large zergs of condi engis running around.

    You think condi is easier to play thats fine its your opinion. Tryig to explain to you thats its not like that is a waste of time. You want immunity to condi.

    Just think about power right now it the meta. You have so much counter to it as you say and yet its still hits like a truck with great sustain.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    the devs already stated that necro had the highest win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    One of the highest =/= the highest. That was also a direct reference to reaper which classically plays power builds. Condi reaper hasn't been a thing for many many months.
    This is the exact quote:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    To put things in perspective, Reaper had one of the highest win-rates and play-rates in ranked last season.

    There is also a reason that most scourge in WvW play hybrid or power now and will soon enough be a shift that they wont be a majority zerg makeup.

    Your posts just circles back around to "condi is a problem because of necro and mesmer" when in fact conditions overall are in a fairly weak state compared to power and those two builds are what you do not like.

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭

    Reading the last posts, i indeed agree that the question is more likely " Are condis easier to play " or " Are scourge and mirage easier to play " . That's clearly the second point to me.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

  • Zero.3871Zero.3871 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    it seems you are on your own crusade. when People Posting SCREENSHOOTS of 30k+ hits from maul or 10k+ AA from LB where is this Twisted by words? People arguing with Facts they collect ingame. they also arguing against necros, mesmers, Warriors, …. with different meanings and Facts. if someone post such Facts you can start to discuss These.

    for example if someone said he got hit by necro lesser spinal shivers for 8 k, it got discussed and the result was that anet nerfed a passive offensive proc because it didnt had any telling/counterplay. now it is more for boonhate less for dmg/less punishing for the enemy.

    same for warrior FC. People made screenshoots of massive hits from FC while this skill is proovable also applying heal, boons while denying a lot of dmg. result of that discussion. anet nerfed this skills dmg. now its mainly a defensive skill. where are this Things bias? it got dicussed and it seems this skill did too much at once.

    i could bring examples for nearly every class.

    and now People are arguing About massive Bursts by rangers while this class still has Access to invulns, dodges, blocks for good Sustain + mobility. it seems too much in ONE build. we will see the results….

    and also this thread. the Claim that condi builds are easier than power builds came up 2 years ago when condi meta came up after some condi buffs anet did that days so that condi builds had same dmg AND burst potential like power builds but with 1000 toughness more in stats.
    but nowadays a lot of condi cleanses got implemented to the game since that time, while burst potential of condi got heavily nerfed. so it seems that power and condi are evenly easy to Play. i dont know what here is Twisted by words or biased.

    the only one that biased Statements was you, by changing @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 Statement to something he never said.

  • Slow damage in a game mode about point capture with points attributed per unit time will never work. You're asking for a power only meta.

  • Slow damage over time that can be 100% resisted, cleansed, or simply minimized by exercising self-control (torment and confusion) is somehow easier to play than instant, potentially 1-shot direct damage? There are literally two viable condi builds in the game, the rest being power. Why is this even up for debate?

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful.

    Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game.

    There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Slow damage over time that can be 100% resisted, cleansed, or simply minimized by exercising self-control (torment and confusion) is somehow easier to play than instant, potentially 1-shot direct damage? There are literally two viable condi builds in the game, the rest being power. Why is this even up for debate?

    Everybody would be running a condi spec if they had something like this for their class:

    Can we see a video of you playing this "easY" one shot power build?....

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful.

    Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game.

    There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design.

    Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon....

  • schloumou.3982schloumou.3982 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    Condi builds are indeed mechanically easier to play than power builds. Let's take a look at a reference point of historically popular condi builds vs. their power ounterparts:

    Condi Engineers - Terribly inefficient, but easier to play because its kit is just one big burn burst macro. Outside of that, dodge roll and position correctly.

    -Trevor Boyer.6524

    Hey, may i use this as chatover in vids?

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful.

    Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game.

    There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design.

    Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon....

    I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful.

    Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game.

    There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design.

    Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon....

    I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah.

    You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful.

    Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game.

    There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design.

    Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon....

    I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah.

    You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere

    Reaper is more of a melee ranged character than a aoe spamming guy like scourge, besides, we had our dmg nerfed and our sustain recently, and on top of that if you cc them and dmg them their shroud disappears in seconds and you get soul barbs which is a indicator screaming attack me now my shroud is down and im easy picking because i cannot get into shroud no more.

    Without sustain outside of shroud and a baby sitter they are instantly dead.

    The reason why its dead is simple 2 health bars versus infinite aegis invulns and evade spam vs 2 health bar, the invulns aegis and evade spam wins hands down.

    If you cannot get out of a area because you keep being cced, it doesnt matter, especially since classes nowadays can almost instantly burst you down, which is why soulbeast must take a hit.

    Reapers took a hit, scourge took a hit, warriors really took a hit with full counter, so tell me, why should soulbeast be immune to nerfs?

    Give me a good reason explain the reason why soulbeast technically shouldnt be nerfed with explanation on abilities dmg and how it works.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful.

    Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game.

    There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design.

    Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon....

    I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah.

    You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere

    Reaper is more of a melee ranged character than a aoe spamming guy like scourge, besides, we had our dmg nerfed and our sustain recently, and on top of that if you cc them and dmg them their shroud disappears in seconds and you get soul barbs which is a indicator screaming attack me now my shroud is down and im easy picking because i cannot get into shroud no more.

    Without sustain outside of shroud and a baby sitter they are instantly dead.

    The reason why its dead is simple 2 health bars versus infinite aegis invulns and evade spam vs 2 health bar, the invulns aegis and evade spam wins hands down.

    If you cannot get out of a area because you keep being cced, it doesnt matter, especially since classes nowadays can almost instantly burst you down, which is why soulbeast must take a hit.

    Reapers took a hit, scourge took a hit, warriors really took a hit with full counter, so tell me, why should soulbeast be immune to nerfs?

    Give me a good reason explain the reason why soulbeast technically shouldnt be nerfed with explanation on abilities dmg and how it works.

    Ranger receives nerfs all the times..like last patch applied nerfs and ofc these are not the class destroying nerfs you necro are looking for. What exactly are you looking for? A ranged designed class that does no relevant damage from range so that you can F1-F5 faceroll this class too like you do with the rest?

    -X player : can't counter necro at melee range

    -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob

    Player X bring cleanse

    -Necro player : too much cleanse in game

    -X player : can't counter necro at melee range

    -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob ..or avoid our aoe spam

    -X player: how can I avoid melee aoe spam while keeping pressure at melee range?

    -Necro player : go range you noob

    • X players : goes range

    -Necro player : too much damage from range

    • X player: drop the mouse and uninstall the game

    Necro community since 2012

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful.

    Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game.

    There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design.

    Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon....

    I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah.

    You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere

    Reaper is more of a melee ranged character than a aoe spamming guy like scourge, besides, we had our dmg nerfed and our sustain recently, and on top of that if you cc them and dmg them their shroud disappears in seconds and you get soul barbs which is a indicator screaming attack me now my shroud is down and im easy picking because i cannot get into shroud no more.

    Without sustain outside of shroud and a baby sitter they are instantly dead.

    The reason why its dead is simple 2 health bars versus infinite aegis invulns and evade spam vs 2 health bar, the invulns aegis and evade spam wins hands down.

    If you cannot get out of a area because you keep being cced, it doesnt matter, especially since classes nowadays can almost instantly burst you down, which is why soulbeast must take a hit.

    Reapers took a hit, scourge took a hit, warriors really took a hit with full counter, so tell me, why should soulbeast be immune to nerfs?

    Give me a good reason explain the reason why soulbeast technically shouldnt be nerfed with explanation on abilities dmg and how it works.

    Ranger receives nerfs all the times..like last patch applied nerfs and ofc these are not the class destroying nerfs you necro are looking for. What exactly are you looking for? A ranged designed class that does no relevant damage from range so that you can F1-F5 faceroll this class too like you do with the rest?

    -X player : can't counter necro at melee range

    -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob

    Player X bring cleanse

    -Necro player : too much cleanse in game

    -X player : can't counter necro at melee range

    -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob ..or avoid our aoe spam

    -X player: how can I avoid melee aoe spam while keeping pressure at melee range?

    -Necro player : go range you noob

    • X players : goes range

    -Necro player : too much damage from range

    • X player: drop the mouse and uninstall the game

    Necro community since 2012

    F1 to F5 thing is irrelevant like i said, because that is a scourge thing.

    Do you know the difference between reaper and scourge? it sounds like you are combining reaper and scourge abilities.

    That would be like lets say if someone made a stereotype about rangers where they go use the druid avatar healings while fused with their pet in soulbeast build, NO you cannot have soulbeast and druid spec abilities at the same time.

    The aoe spam from range? thats scourge not reaper. Each one has a different weakness, and im not asking for soulbeast to be gutted.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭

    Actually half meta power builds I fight have condi between 1st to 4th damage position in the death report while their owner had 0 condi damage amulet, is it normal ? :#

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    'It's so easy to tell a lie but a lie will never make the truth go away'

    'Duna RDRM GW2 Roaming Mesmer#3 Hybrid (fights in Na and back to eu ) CANCER'

    ( build included in video)

    -DUNA-mesmer-

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    OP is missing a critical part of why condi builds are considered low skill builds for low skill players.

    It's true that DOT isn't inherently any more easymode than normal direct damage. In fact it should even have more counterplay and be even more difficult to play in that regard. But it's not. Why? WELL BOOOOOIIIIII, to find that out you need to look at the skills themselves.

    Look at some of the best power skills in the meta:

    Photon forge - Holographic shockwave: Obvious animation on the holosmith. Huge telegraph. Animation locked during cast. Large windup.
    Whirling attack: Obvious animation, skillshot based, tell is in the weapon swap
    Shackling wave: Post-nerf even grandma can dodge this skills tell now.
    Whirling defense: Very obvious animation, requires you to sit in it to get the full damage. 99% of the time dying to this is entirely your own fault.

    Now lets look at some of the best condi skills in the meta:

    All shade skills: Zero cast time AoE abilities with indistinguishable animations
    Condi Mirage shatters: Zero cast time AoE abilities
    Necro staff: Low cast time ranged abilities with massive AoE

    TL;DR the problem with condi isn't condi. The problem is the overwhelming majority of condi abilities are huge AoE instant cast skills that allow you to play condi builds by just running to wherever enemies are and 12345ing. https://www.twitch.tv/bikzesnake/clip/ShySoftAirGuitarVoteNay?filter=clips&range=all&sort=time

    Yay we got the winner of the golden strawberry for being one of the the worst players in gw2.

    Dude. Do you even understand how scourge works, and what conditions it applies. Did you ever play it yourself?

    Good players didn't have a problem with killing scourges even before these 1bilion nerfs.

    It's even easier than ever to kill scourges. Sure. Some people stand on point in spvp, facetank get everything scourge throws at them, and then call scourge op.

    Do you even know which conditions scourge throws at you? And btw. Scourge has a 0.5 seconds casttime on shade(s) and the game even tells you, where they will land .

    You realize being easy to play and being overpowered are two extremely different concepts right?

    You are literally attacking my post for a point I wasn't even making.

    Chill the f*** out and reflect on your life choices.

    Condis need to hurt and for slow damage to work everyone, and that means mirage and scourge need to be nerfed., and then those classes need to have sustain and duration in their builds to have their sustain not be sacrificed while doing condi dmg slowly, which means scourge will need to be buffed in a way that it doesnt have to sacrifice too much dmg in condi so it can slowly kill people, and have the survivability to land a kill slowly.You would need conditions to be a lot longer, and bleeds would either have to be in a bit more quantity over burns so it can hurt, or it would have to be reworked in some way that something else is included, such as stamina is being lost while bleeding.

    Right now, having slow condi dmg is practically useless, because everyone can 1 shot you with burst that is doing 20 to 30k dmg, even reaper can practically one shot people if you cc someone like a warr which has a lot of health, and just spam 1 and 3.

    Scourge can put out a bit of burn and torment with torch, and some poison and bleeds with wand, but not nearly enough to kill someone before you die. Also, keep in mind that boon corrupt is putting out a lot of condis as well, since you are corrupting boons into conditions as scourge, and you have fairly high amount of it.

    I swear nobody will be happy until the opposite class of theirs is completely useless and can only stand still and take dmg and die, making the game pointless for the opposite class.

    People been whining about necros, eles, thieves, warriors, mesmers etc.

    Look at the nerfs to thieves, they are getting nerfed to death because of deadeye.
    Look at how people are still crying for more nerfs to chrono and mirage even if they already got nerfed, and they want mesmers to be completely useless.

    No. People don't want mesmers to be useless, but having condi-application without doing anything is a real problem.
    Last week I fought a Condi mirage in wvw. He was very bad and I killed him with my necro. Still, I got so many conditions, while he just ran away. Because you know, it's pretty hard to dodge every autoattack of those clones.

    Also. Let's take scourge in a 1v1. It's pretty kitten easy to kill it, if you know, which attacks you have to avoid.
    While it's still very strong in teamfights (guild groups and zergs), when you get your back carried by firebrands. While sadly, boonshare mesmer got almost deleted from wvw zergs.

    But even then, scourge dmg got gutted so hard, that you have to play very offensive stats, while having no defense on your own.

    There's always pros and cons. The real problem we have, is anet not doing any useful skillsplits.

    Let's stay with the necro/mesmer comparison:
    Mesmer is still the most used support in high-end pve (raids).
    While necro is mediocre at best. Being the worst DPS class you could take. There's actually 2 bosses, where necro is meta: sabetha and soulless horror. But you don't take the necro for their damage, you take them for free addcleave.
    And let's not talk about support scourge. It's still underwhelming, and not a good choice as a support for good groups.

    And then there's PvP modes. Ok let's actually speak about wvw. Where mesmer is one of the best roaming classes (together with thief and ranger), but it's not so good in zergs anymore. It's utilities still make it useable though, while necro is just very good in zergs, because it has a lot of cleave and boon corrupt (even though I think it might need a little bit more due to how easy it is to get boons for most classes).

    And I think, that's all because there is no proper skillsplit.
    And it's not, because skillsplit is hard to do, but because anet seems to not want to. Not want to make professions play different in every gamemode.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Axl.8924 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Zero.3871 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    People play condis because they're way easier to be succesful with...the devs already stated that necro had the highet win rate in pvp and wvw is swamped by necro..."add diversity" my behind

    anet said REAPER has ONE OF highest win rates (there still can be 3 or 4 classes with higher and still 10-15 with just a Little less winrate - so this Statement was nearly without any Content). and reaper got barely played with condi. so your whole Statement here just wrong and shows how uninformed you are.

    also wvw is far away from being "swamped" by necros. in small scale you see nearly no necro, and in zergs its just 20% of all classes (1 per Group).

    you are obviously VERY toxic and People like you sadly destroying any Chance for a constructive, good discussion.

    The quantity of players using necro in gw2 is simply staggering and this translate into an undending wave of complain threads from necro/mesmer main to maintain the status quo alongside the periodical ranger nerf thread , the only class that stand as the last bastion of hope for the remaining playerbase....I mean if you see a ranger nerf thread on the forum must be from a necro main most likely or mesmer in few occasions.

    What kind of discussion is to be expected on this forum? Bias and self-interest are quite visible and any attempt of reasoning is twisted by word play , mockering and insults

    Personally i think you are being silly. If every other class takes hits and balanced, why should rangers be excluded if they need to be balanced? if anything, it sounds like you are a ranger main who is afraid of having your elite spec forced to become more skillful.

    Having a single class with tons of sustain and damage of top dps kind, is not good for the game.

    There is a reason why pvp is dying in this game, and its because having a class hard counter you to the point where you have zero chance to win is not fun. I hope ANET balances so that there is some chance to win versus another class regardless of being hard countered, so that you can out skill your opponent, now that would be good design.

    Tons of sustain?...Ranger survives the most by being at range and that something not going away anytime soon....

    I have seen soulbeast play, any idea how much as a reaper i would love to have the kinda mobility and sustain you have while im on reaper? yeah.

    You only have to give up all the aoe spam frenzy and see how that work for you it's easy really...oh wait you want to keep all the aoe spamm while getting mobility and sustain on top..sure I can't wait for you telling me that necro has no aoe dmg and it's the weakest class in the game , bottom tier everywhere

    Reaper is more of a melee ranged character than a aoe spamming guy like scourge, besides, we had our dmg nerfed and our sustain recently, and on top of that if you cc them and dmg them their shroud disappears in seconds and you get soul barbs which is a indicator screaming attack me now my shroud is down and im easy picking because i cannot get into shroud no more.

    Without sustain outside of shroud and a baby sitter they are instantly dead.

    The reason why its dead is simple 2 health bars versus infinite aegis invulns and evade spam vs 2 health bar, the invulns aegis and evade spam wins hands down.

    If you cannot get out of a area because you keep being cced, it doesnt matter, especially since classes nowadays can almost instantly burst you down, which is why soulbeast must take a hit.

    Reapers took a hit, scourge took a hit, warriors really took a hit with full counter, so tell me, why should soulbeast be immune to nerfs?

    Give me a good reason explain the reason why soulbeast technically shouldnt be nerfed with explanation on abilities dmg and how it works.

    Ranger receives nerfs all the times..like last patch applied nerfs and ofc these are not the class destroying nerfs you necro are looking for. What exactly are you looking for? A ranged designed class that does no relevant damage from range so that you can F1-F5 faceroll this class too like you do with the rest?

    -X player : can't counter necro at melee range

    -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob

    Player X bring cleanse

    -Necro player : too much cleanse in game

    -X player : can't counter necro at melee range

    -Necro player : bring cleanse you noob ..or avoid our aoe spam

    -X player: how can I avoid melee aoe spam while keeping pressure at melee range?

    -Necro player : go range you noob

    • X players : goes range

    -Necro player : too much damage from range

    • X player: drop the mouse and uninstall the game

    Necro community since 2012

    Really funny. While ranger also received a hard buff, necro only received nerfs last patch.

    And I'm not saying necro needs to be best at everything, that would be annoying to play.

    But you have to admit, that ranger damage is a bit over the top right now, doing 5-8, sometimes even 10k dmg with 1500 range autoattacks is a little bit too much and takes no actual skill.

    I'm really looking forward to a game, where skill actually matters, but thats sadly not the case for gw2 (at least not in most situations).

    Well we fought yesterday as a guild group of 24people against zone blobs with 60 people and we still won, that might have to do with us being better than our opponents, or maybe our builds just fit better together, than builds of random people in public zergs

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