Break the double druid habit - Alternative Healers and their perks — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Break the double druid habit - Alternative Healers and their perks

Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

Hey,

this thread only concerns comps with 2x boon support + 2x healer.

At least on EU, the double druid habit is something that really baffles me. On the one hand, squad commanders are looking for best in slot dps on all bosses, while on the other hand they are absolutely fine with bascially just wasting a slot with so much more capability than just giving fury, mediocre heals and mediocre cc.

Contrary to popular belief, one druid is more than capable enough to buff up fast and maintain 25 might on 10man. The only prerequisite for this is to have a full Celestial Avatar at the beginning of each fight. Thanks to the reworked Grace of the Land trait your CA skills gives 2 stacks of might for up to 24 seconds duration per skill/pulse. This means we need 13 skills or pulses to buff up 25 might if theres no other source for it. CA4 pulses 5 times, CA5 pulses 3 times, so thats already 16 stacks of might. You can quickdraw CA4 for another 5 which puts you over 25 might... or you can simply spam CA1 and CA2 on your squad for the rest.
So, a nice opening would look like this: start on staff, swap to x/wh for quickdraw wh5+wh4, do NOT wait for it to come of cooldown but instead go immediately into CA, use CA4, CA5, spam CA1 and CA2 until your weapon swap (and quickdraw!) comes off cooldown again, leave avatar, get a quickdraw proc again on wh5, swap to staff, swap to x/wh for quickdraw wh5+4, go CA etc. Its easy, theres TONS of leeway and Im really sorry to say this, but every monkey should be able to maintain 25 might on 10man on a harrier druid with this. It doesnt even matter if you quickdraw wh5 regularly. Its nice if you do it, but apart from opening, its not necessary in the least.
So, the argument that "I dont trust a pug druid to maintain 25 might alone" is invalid. You wouldnt keep a dps in your squad that only does <5k dps now would you? So why keep the equivalent of it as even 2 druids in your squad? Not just keep them, but actually PLAN your whole comp around such players? Isnt it rather prejudiced to kick that power reaper because he only reaches 14k instead of 16k on gorseval, but then keep the druids too unskilled to do something as easy as upkeep 25 might?

Sorry, but this had to be said. Now on to more productive things.

Who ARE the alternative contenders for that second "healer" slot? Theres quite a handful. They all fill a niche in terms extras they provide while bringing considerably more healing, cc and condi removal than a druid can bring.

(The builds nearly all use monk runes, you can replace them everywhere with water runes though, no worries)

Harrier Renegade
Build ->
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAW8nnXMnNSumzJRZzNlst5oSY38UJ4bOskFNlqVA4PIPymctJUFA-jxhXQBAY/BEq8zfq/0Qlg0T3gueCAh6iAQKA/GsB-e
Healing ->
On kalla keep your elite up until energy empty. For clutch situations you have your healskill (which also acts like resistance!) and staff4. As long as players are attacking, they get healed roughly 500-600 for each strike, no icd.
On ventari, move your table a tiny teensy bit around where your squad stands, everytime you move it, you heal. Natural Harmony is for the very big heals, Purifying Essence is a condi remove that heals considerably.
CC ->
Staff5 removes a big chunk of the cc bar, depending on hitbox size. Its instant and low cooldown, so you have it up pretty much for every cc phase. Additionally you have Darkrazor summon on kalla (600), but darkrazor isnt instant, it ticks with 100 per second. On ventari you can sacrifice your tablet for a knockback (150). With some practice you can use that knockback quite nicely on VG for seeker control or on Samarog to help push in rigom.
Extra ->
Now, the real reason this build is for me at least definitely meta in lfg squads, is quite simply that it can buff 10man 100% alacrity quite easily via Orders from Above with Righteous Rebel trait, without allies having to stack closely or stand in wells until they close. This also adds a certain flexibility to the rest of your comp. The chronos can remove WoR and bring Precog Well or mimic or DE or Feedback or whatever is best suited. And instead of having to search hours for that elusive tank chrono you can also just let the Renegade tank while bringing in a quickbrand or healbrand for quickness and fury. Healbrand in particular is easy to play as well, in contrast to chrono.

Harrier Firebrand
Build ->
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAS3umsADFBjlKCLz5pBgJAMB2Pntz6JA-jxhXQBIU5nueCANUJYouIAAY/B6pbwfq/QKA/GsB-e
Healing ->
Firebrand heals mainly through passive ticks and symbol healing ticks. The build gives out aegis every 10 seconds, with additional aegis on shield4 and possibly mace3 if you dont have to provide fury. For clutch situations F2 tome brings a ton of healing, and you can bring elite signet for even more of that. For condition heavy encounters you can bring Mantra of Lore or Purging Flames. Merciful Intervention is also quite powerful.
CC ->
Banish, F1 tome skill3 pull, axe 3 pull, Bane Signet or Hammer of Wisdom or even Sanctuary can be brought for cc, depending on whats needed.
Extra ->
This builds biggest strength is that it is very versatile. You can tank most encounters on it without any trouble (xera and vg mid are the exception), while also providing 5man 100% instant quickness. Mantras might need a bit getting used to, though this build overcaps by quite a lot on quickness, so if you dont hit all with your mantra everytime, its no big deal. You can either replace the chrono in your subgrp, if you have a renegade healer, or the chrono in your subgrp can drop WoA for something more useful. In terms of utility, you can reflect with Wall of Reflection and backup yourself with F3 tome skill3 if Wall failed on Matthias for example. You can bring GS for another pull on Sabetha. Push back seekers on VG, pull in adds on Gorse / Sloth / Xera. The sheer amount of aegis and stability this build can bring even surpasses that of chaos chrono in its best days. Im sure Ive forgotten something, but except for portals, healfb seems to have an answer to pretty much every problem. Fury? No problem, just use axe. Might? Scepter. Blocks? Mace. Stability? 10man SYG or F3 tome. You have to adapt the build quite a lot, but it also offers a lot of utility that way.

Harrier Tempest
Build ->
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQFAWn0XCVYi9XCOYCcYilSAj4CUBCAun116btwGAA-jxhXQBAY/BEq8je6AC1FAohKB9n6P66BAQKA/GsB-e
Healing ->
Staff variant heals through water attunement skills and auras. Scepter/warhorn variant only through scepter3 on water and auras.
CC ->
The cc of this build is rather limited. On staff you have only really Gust, Static Field is too unreliable. You can swap out Aftershock for a cc utility, ice bow for example offers 300 defiance bar dmg on skill5, earth shield 2x 150 on skill 3+4 etc. On Scepter/wh you have air4 and water4 instead of Gust. You can bring quite a lot of immobilize, but sadly, soft ccs stack in duration not intensity so its not very efficient.
Extra ->
With scepter/warhorn this build can buff 10man fury and might - if theres someone buffing the tempest fury and might to copy then with fire wh4. Both variants offer 10man protection via earth overload and quite a nice amount of frost aura, which reduced dmg on top of protection. In terms of raw healing, the staff build has currently the most sustained healing output, and it is quite "widespread" which definitely is a plus on encounters like matthias, that force you to spread out a lot. The staff build also can ranged-revive with Geyser, which is quite useful in squads with unexperienced players.

Barrier Scourge
Build ->
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJBIhaS0LweDW6GMKjATPgBQAQvnOUTqA-jBApA8bwG-e
Nope, not a mistake. There are several good and useful healscourge builds out there. Teapots Thinking Man Scourge for example, as a very strong barrier and rezz bot using magi gear and rune of mercy, imo the best build for carrying low tier/beginner raidsquads. Or a plaguedoctor variant thats useful for its epidemic on bosses with adds - as long as you have enough other condi dps applying the needed conditions. A harrier variant that can buff around 10might on 10man (never tried that one).
Healing ->
Well, not much. Healscourge works by preventing damage via barrier. The most important one is your F3 shade skill, that lets you give out a big barrier every 6-7 seconds.
CC ->
Flesh golem charge, warhorn 4, torch 5, spectral grasp. Fear and immobilizes as well.
Extra ->
Transfusion turns your F4 into an aoe revive skill. On activation you pull downed players in a radius of 600 to you and start reviving them. Transfusion pulses 9 times, that means theres only a few seconds between F4 uses that you dont pulse Transfusion. In the hands of an experienced player, the revive capabilities of this build together with barrier is incredibly strong. On the other hand, this build is unsuited to inexperienced players because they can not (yet) anticipated incoming damage properly, making barrier rather ineffective, and they might pull (accidentally ofc) downed players into oncoming mechanics instead of to safety.

Healscrapper is also a nice healing build though in current balance I wouldnt consider bringing it. Mind you, Im not saying its bad or useless, just.. it doesnt have the "extra" something other healers bring.

So, what to take from this now? Well, the era of 2 druids definitely is over. Done. No use clinging to it. Bringing 2 druids is like bringing 2 bannerwarriors. You wouldnt do that either, would you? I mean, it would still be viable and yet... no one even considers it.

<1

Comments

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hey,

    this thread only concerns comps with 2x boon support + 2x healer.

    At least on EU, the double druid habit is something that really baffles me. On the one hand, squad commanders are looking for best in slot dps on all bosses, while on the other hand they are absolutely fine with bascially just wasting a slot with so much more capability than just giving fury, mediocre heals and mediocre cc.

    Contrary to popular belief, one druid is more than capable enough to buff up fast and maintain 25 might on 10man. The only prerequisite for this is to have a full Celestial Avatar at the beginning of each fight. Thanks to the reworked Grace of the Land trait your CA skills gives 2 stacks of might for up to 24 seconds duration per skill/pulse. This means we need 13 skills or pulses to buff up 25 might if theres no other source for it. CA4 pulses 5 times, CA5 pulses 3 times, so thats already 16 stacks of might. You can quickdraw CA4 for another 5 which puts you over 25 might... or you can simply spam CA1 and CA2 on your squad for the rest.
    So, a nice opening would look like this: start on staff, swap to x/wh for quickdraw wh5+wh4, do NOT wait for it to come of cooldown but instead go immediately into CA, use CA4, CA5, spam CA1 and CA2 until your weapon swap (and quickdraw!) comes off cooldown again, leave avatar, get a quickdraw proc again on wh5, swap to staff, swap to x/wh for quickdraw wh5+4, go CA etc. Its easy, theres TONS of leeway and Im really sorry to say this, but every monkey should be able to maintain 25 might on 10man on a harrier druid with this. It doesnt even matter if you quickdraw wh5 regularly. Its nice if you do it, but apart from opening, its not necessary in the least.
    So, the argument that "I dont trust a pug druid to maintain 25 might alone" is invalid. You wouldnt keep a dps in your squad that only does <5k dps now would you? So why keep the equivalent of it as even 2 druids in your squad? Not just keep them, but actually PLAN your whole comp around such players? Isnt it rather prejudiced to kick that power reaper because he only reaches 14k instead of 16k on gorseval, but then keep the druids too unskilled to do something as easy as upkeep 25 might?

    Sorry, but this had to be said. Now on to more productive things.

    Who ARE the alternative contenders for that second "healer" slot? Theres quite a handful. They all fill a niche in terms extras they provide while bringing considerably more healing, cc and condi removal than a druid can bring.

    (The builds nearly all use monk runes, you can replace them everywhere with water runes though, no worries)

    Harrier Renegade
    Build ->
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAW8nnXMnNSumzJRZzNlst5oSY38UJ4bOskFNlqVA4PIPymctJUFA-jxhXQBAY/BEq8zfq/0Qlg0T3gueCAh6iAQKA/GsB-e
    Healing ->
    On kalla keep your elite up until energy empty. For clutch situations you have your healskill (which also acts like resistance!) and staff4. As long as players are attacking, they get healed roughly 500-600 for each strike, no icd.
    On ventari, move your table a tiny teensy bit around where your squad stands, everytime you move it, you heal. Natural Harmony is for the very big heals, Purifying Essence is a condi remove that heals considerably.
    CC ->
    Staff5 removes a big chunk of the cc bar, depending on hitbox size. Its instant and low cooldown, so you have it up pretty much for every cc phase. Additionally you have Darkrazor summon on kalla (600), but darkrazor isnt instant, it ticks with 100 per second. On ventari you can sacrifice your tablet for a knockback (150). With some practice you can use that knockback quite nicely on VG for seeker control or on Samarog to help push in rigom.
    Extra ->
    Now, the real reason this build is for me at least definitely meta in lfg squads, is quite simply that it can buff 10man 100% alacrity quite easily via Orders from Above with Righteous Rebel trait, without allies having to stack closely or stand in wells until they close. This also adds a certain flexibility to the rest of your comp. The chronos can remove WoR and bring Precog Well or mimic or DE or Feedback or whatever is best suited. And instead of having to search hours for that elusive tank chrono you can also just let the Renegade tank while bringing in a quickbrand or healbrand for quickness and fury. Healbrand in particular is easy to play as well, in contrast to chrono.

    Harrier Firebrand
    Build ->
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAS3umsADFBjlKCLz5pBgJAMB2Pntz6JA-jxhXQBIU5nueCANUJYouIAAY/B6pbwfq/QKA/GsB-e
    Healing ->
    Firebrand heals mainly through passive ticks and symbol healing ticks. The build gives out aegis every 10 seconds, with additional aegis on shield4 and possibly mace3 if you dont have to provide fury. For clutch situations F2 tome brings a ton of healing, and you can bring elite signet for even more of that. For condition heavy encounters you can bring Mantra of Lore or Purging Flames. Merciful Intervention is also quite powerful.
    CC ->
    Banish, F1 tome skill3 pull, axe 3 pull, Bane Signet or Hammer of Wisdom or even Sanctuary can be brought for cc, depending on whats needed.
    Extra ->
    This builds biggest strength is that it is very versatile. You can tank most encounters on it without any trouble (xera and vg mid are the exception), while also providing 5man 100% instant quickness. Mantras might need a bit getting used to, though this build overcaps by quite a lot on quickness, so if you dont hit all with your mantra everytime, its no big deal. You can either replace the chrono in your subgrp, if you have a renegade healer, or the chrono in your subgrp can drop WoA for something more useful. In terms of utility, you can reflect with Wall of Reflection and backup yourself with F3 tome skill3 if Wall failed on Matthias for example. You can bring GS for another pull on Sabetha. Push back seekers on VG, pull in adds on Gorse / Sloth / Xera. The sheer amount of aegis and stability this build can bring even surpasses that of chaos chrono in its best days. Im sure Ive forgotten something, but except for portals, healfb seems to have an answer to pretty much every problem. Fury? No problem, just use axe. Might? Scepter. Blocks? Mace. Stability? 10man SYG or F3 tome. You have to adapt the build quite a lot, but it also offers a lot of utility that way.

    Harrier Tempest
    Build ->
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQFAWn0XCVYi9XCOYCcYilSAj4CUBCAun116btwGAA-jxhXQBAY/BEq8je6AC1FAohKB9n6P66BAQKA/GsB-e
    Healing ->
    Staff variant heals through water attunement skills and auras. Scepter/warhorn variant only through scepter3 on water and auras.
    CC ->
    The cc of this build is rather limited. On staff you have only really Gust, Static Field is too unreliable. You can swap out Aftershock for a cc utility, ice bow for example offers 300 defiance bar dmg on skill5, earth shield 2x 150 on skill 3+4 etc. On Scepter/wh you have air4 and water4 instead of Gust. You can bring quite a lot of immobilize, but sadly, soft ccs stack in duration not intensity so its not very efficient.
    Extra ->
    With scepter/warhorn this build can buff 10man fury and might - if theres someone buffing the tempest fury and might to copy then with fire wh4. Both variants offer 10man protection via earth overload and quite a nice amount of frost aura, which reduced dmg on top of protection. In terms of raw healing, the staff build has currently the most sustained healing output, and it is quite "widespread" which definitely is a plus on encounters like matthias, that force you to spread out a lot. The staff build also can ranged-revive with Geyser, which is quite useful in squads with unexperienced players.

    Barrier Scourge
    Build ->
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQJBIhaS0LweDW6GMKjATPgBQAQvnOUTqA-jBApA8bwG-e
    Nope, not a mistake. There are several good and useful healscourge builds out there. Teapots Thinking Man Scourge for example, as a very strong barrier and rezz bot using magi gear and rune of mercy, imo the best build for carrying low tier/beginner raidsquads. Or a plaguedoctor variant thats useful for its epidemic on bosses with adds - as long as you have enough other condi dps applying the needed conditions. A harrier variant that can buff around 10might on 10man (never tried that one).
    Healing ->
    Well, not much. Healscourge works by preventing damage via barrier. The most important one is your F3 shade skill, that lets you give out a big barrier every 6-7 seconds.
    CC ->
    Flesh golem charge, warhorn 4, torch 5, spectral grasp. Fear and immobilizes as well.
    Extra ->
    Transfusion turns your F4 into an aoe revive skill. On activation you pull downed players in a radius of 600 to you and start reviving them. Transfusion pulses 9 times, that means theres only a few seconds between F4 uses that you dont pulse Transfusion. In the hands of an experienced player, the revive capabilities of this build together with barrier is incredibly strong. On the other hand, this build is unsuited to inexperienced players because they can not (yet) anticipated incoming damage properly, making barrier rather ineffective, and they might pull (accidentally ofc) downed players into oncoming mechanics instead of to safety.

    Healscrapper is also a nice healing build though in current balance I wouldnt consider bringing it. Mind you, Im not saying its bad or useless, just.. it doesnt have the "extra" something other healers bring.

    So, what to take from this now? Well, the era of 2 druids definitely is over. Done. No use clinging to it. Bringing 2 druids is like bringing 2 bannerwarriors. You wouldnt do that either, would you? I mean, it would still be viable and yet... no one even considers it.

    Era of dudu is over its the era of firebrands(sad change but all good things end eventually )i mean as main healer too :(

  • Doto.6357Doto.6357 Member ✭✭

    Kalla elite on renegade heals has no icd and with assassins presence I feel like it does more damage boosting than glyph of empowerment and frost spirit.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Such a second slot could and many cases should be considered a waste no matter which class you use for it. The most obvious choice, once people realized a single druid is able to maintain 25 Might, would be to not even have a second healer slot then. That is, if the issue is actually only about the Might.
    I don't deny that there better options than a second druid, all with their own benefits, not to mention most of them do provide decent might for at least their own party, but none of them are strictly needed unless you really struggle without the additional healing in which case anything is an improvement even the trusty second Druid.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Such a second slot could and many cases should be considered a waste no matter which class you use for it. The most obvious choice, once people realized a single druid is able to maintain 25 Might, would be to not even have a second healer slot then. That is, if the issue is actually only about the Might.
    I don't deny that there better options than a second druid, all with their own benefits, not to mention most of them do provide decent might for at least their own party, but none of them are strictly needed unless you really struggle without the additional healing in which case anything is an improvement even the trusty second Druid.

    Its nice that you think one healer should always be enough and people just need to "git gud" but please, not here.

    While I value any input, this thread is specifically tailored towards the most commonly used lfg squad comp -> 2x chrono, 2x healer (see first post).

    Minimalistic support comps are not suited for the majority of the raid playerbase, and they are in no way suited for lfg squads that are comprised of people that never played together and all have different skill-levels.

    Also, you are wrong. Even a shoutwarrior would be more of an improvement than a 2nd druid.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Such a second slot could and many cases should be considered a waste no matter which class you use for it. The most obvious choice, once people realized a single druid is able to maintain 25 Might, would be to not even have a second healer slot then. That is, if the issue is actually only about the Might.
    I don't deny that there better options than a second druid, all with their own benefits, not to mention most of them do provide decent might for at least their own party, but none of them are strictly needed unless you really struggle without the additional healing in which case anything is an improvement even the trusty second Druid.

    Its nice that you think one healer should always be enough and people just need to "git gud" but please, not here.

    While I value any input, this thread is specifically tailored towards the most commonly used lfg squad comp -> 2x chrono, 2x healer (see first post).

    Minimalistic support comps are not suited for the majority of the raid playerbase, and they are in no way suited for lfg squads that are comprised of people that never played together and all have different skill-levels.

    Also, you are wrong. Even a shoutwarrior would be more of an improvement than a 2nd druid.

    You seem to have misunderstood me there. Bring a second healer if you need one, "unless you really struggle without one" is what I said.
    Let me try again, you did say they insist on having a second Druid for the sole purpose of being able to provide 25 Might and then proceeded to go into a long explanation on about how one Druid is able to do it all by themselves. Guess you are telling Druids to "git gud" at providing Might then?
    Chuckles aside, you seem to greatly underestimate what a single Druid can do if you think they are close to useless in comparison with the other builds you mentioned, even more so as the second Druid would be free to run Lingering Light being the second healer. Unless you yourself think the second Druid needs to have GOTL even though one can provide all of the Might needed.
    And no, I am not saying there aren't better options if you need to have a second healer. I simply think it is a bit much to claim anything would be better. PuG commanders go with what they know and they always assume Druids (or anything really) to be mediocre and struggle at pretty much everything, including Might. Thus they insist on having both which is indeed silly.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • On Firebrand, is Stalwart Speed better than Weighty Terms?
    With Weighty Terms and Alacrity you can reduce the recharge time of your quickness mantra from 12 seconds to 7.68 seconds. The Mantra Charge gives more quickness than Stalwart Speed while only having a 0.68 seconds longer CD. So it should be better, no?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'd love to see more pugmanders being open-minded to druid + a different healer and hopefully it's just a matter of time and adjustment that we'll see more variants. At the moment we (just) have

    • stalled views
    • people with already geared druids
    • some very bad pocket heal druids (staff only, kinda useless pets, bad CA management, no usage of meaningful utilities & traits for certain encounters)

    The problem with the last point I made is: If your solo druid dies (I know shouldn't happen imho) and you have a different 2nd healer you'll most likely lack might, fury etc. and that's also a reason for pugmanders to take two of them because you'll never know.
    In my static (and I know of some others as well) we don't use double druid for the full clear and either have a solo druid for most of the bosses or another 2nd healer to achieve a smooth run.
    Let's see what the future will bring. I'm confident as I have been in pug squads that had scourge healers as well as revs, fbs and tempests in the past 2 months.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I'd love to see more pugmanders being open-minded to druid + a different healer and hopefully it's just a matter of time and adjustment that we'll see more variants. At the moment we (just) have

    • stalled views
    • people with already geared druids
    • some very bad pocket heal druids (staff only, kinda useless pets, bad CA management, no usage of meaningful utilities & traits for certain encounters)

    The problem with the last point I made is: If your solo druid dies (I know shouldn't happen imho) and you have a different 2nd healer you'll most likely lack might, fury etc. and that's also a reason for pugmanders to take two of them because you'll never know.
    In my static (and I know of some others as well) we don't use double druid for the full clear and either have a solo druid for most of the bosses or another 2nd healer to achieve a smooth run.
    Let's see what the future will bring. I'm confident as I have been in pug squads that had scourge healers as well as revs, fbs and tempests in the past 2 months.

    In future i suspect druid will be a memory

  • TamX.1870TamX.1870 Member ✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    In future i suspect druid will be a memory

    Druid is already only a distant memory in PvP side, so without balance patch it will be then obsoleted from all content :) Such a sad, just recently finally got harrier druid :)

  • Laila Lightness.8742Laila Lightness.8742 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @TamX.1870 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    In future i suspect druid will be a memory

    Druid is already only a distant memory in PvP side, so without balance patch it will be then obsoleted from all content :) Such a sad, just recently finally got harrier druid :)

    Yeah guardian will be god support of gw 2.it brings nearly all boons but alarcity to share (idk why anet saw chrono as issue and this as balanced ok) but druid is soon gone from game since no one will use it and support will be firebrand with dps renegade

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @TamX.1870 said:

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:
    In future i suspect druid will be a memory

    Druid is already only a distant memory in PvP side, so without balance patch it will be then obsoleted from all content :) Such a sad, just recently finally got harrier druid :)

    Yeah guardian will be god support of gw 2.it brings nearly all boons but alarcity to share (idk why anet saw chrono as issue and this as balanced ok) but druid is soon gone from game since no one will use it and support will be firebrand with dps renegade

    In your dreams. At the moment it is more likely that firebrand will get hit by a big nerf hammer before druid will be useless. Your one sentence comments won't change anything to that. :)

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Such a second slot could and many cases should be considered a waste no matter which class you use for it. The most obvious choice, once people realized a single druid is able to maintain 25 Might, would be to not even have a second healer slot then. That is, if the issue is actually only about the Might.
    I don't deny that there better options than a second druid, all with their own benefits, not to mention most of them do provide decent might for at least their own party, but none of them are strictly needed unless you really struggle without the additional healing in which case anything is an improvement even the trusty second Druid.

    Its nice that you think one healer should always be enough and people just need to "git gud" but please, not here.

    While I value any input, this thread is specifically tailored towards the most commonly used lfg squad comp -> 2x chrono, 2x healer (see first post).

    Minimalistic support comps are not suited for the majority of the raid playerbase, and they are in no way suited for lfg squads that are comprised of people that never played together and all have different skill-levels.

    Also, you are wrong. Even a shoutwarrior would be more of an improvement than a 2nd druid.

    You seem to have misunderstood me there. Bring a second healer if you need one, "unless you really struggle without one" is what I said.
    Let me try again, you did say they insist on having a second Druid for the sole purpose of being able to provide 25 Might and then proceeded to go into a long explanation on about how one Druid is able to do it all by themselves. Guess you are telling Druids to "git gud" at providing Might then?
    Chuckles aside, you seem to greatly underestimate what a single Druid can do if you think they are close to useless in comparison with the other builds you mentioned, even more so as the second Druid would be free to run Lingering Light being the second healer. Unless you yourself think the second Druid needs to have GOTL even though one can provide all of the Might needed.
    And no, I am not saying there aren't better options if you need to have a second healer. I simply think it is a bit much to claim anything would be better. PuG commanders go with what they know and they always assume Druids (or anything really) to be mediocre and struggle at pretty much everything, including Might. Thus they insist on having both which is indeed silly.

    No, Im not telling druids to "git gud", Im saying its so laughably easy that failing at it is a huge embarassement and should never be tolerated. Theres nothing, absolutely nothing, difficult about providing might, spirits and fury on a druid. Either you cant because your squad is so spread out that, and then its not your fault at all... and you cant change anything, or you are just plain afk. Yes, even a mediocre druid will be able to provide those things. The difference between a good druid and a mediocre druid is how good he can predict and cope with special situations... NOT how much might, spirit and fury uptime he can provide.
    Im not "underestimating" druid healing. Ive been a druid main since HoT release up until PoF. Lingering lights is a very bad joke, even Ancient Seeds has more use than a trait that makes your healing more overheal than it already is. The problem is NOT not enough healing on druid, the problem is that you are locked out of your healing in critical moments. Other healer builds do NOT have this problem and in addition bring certain extras that benefit your squad immensely.
    Tbh, I think you are just so stuck in your "2 druids is fine" spiel, that you dont even realize how slackening a second druid is compared to ALL alternatives.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    On Firebrand, is Stalwart Speed better than Weighty Terms?
    With Weighty Terms and Alacrity you can reduce the recharge time of your quickness mantra from 12 seconds to 7.68 seconds. The Mantra Charge gives more quickness than Stalwart Speed while only having a 0.68 seconds longer CD. So it should be better, no?

    You take stalwart speed because of the synergy with liberators vow, imo. On healbrand you can consider running weighty terms, quickness isnt an issue there anyway because you overcap it (boon duration is for other boons like protection, aegis, etc.). On quickbrand you'd have to test it, but from a first glance at it you dont get enough out of it to be able to run axe trait. You'd need more boon duration, which means firebrand runes, which means no renegade runes. Its probably about 3k less dps, but ofc you can try it :)

    @Laila Lightness.8742 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I'd love to see more pugmanders being open-minded to druid + a different healer and hopefully it's just a matter of time and adjustment that we'll see more variants. At the moment we (just) have

    • stalled views
    • people with already geared druids
    • some very bad pocket heal druids (staff only, kinda useless pets, bad CA management, no usage of meaningful utilities & traits for certain encounters)

    The problem with the last point I made is: If your solo druid dies (I know shouldn't happen imho) and you have a different 2nd healer you'll most likely lack might, fury etc. and that's also a reason for pugmanders to take two of them because you'll never know.
    In my static (and I know of some others as well) we don't use double druid for the full clear and either have a solo druid for most of the bosses or another 2nd healer to achieve a smooth run.
    Let's see what the future will bring. I'm confident as I have been in pug squads that had scourge healers as well as revs, fbs and tempests in the past 2 months.

    In future i suspect druid will be a memory

    I dont think so. Druid still brings with frostspirit a good offensive buff and is the only 10 man might stacker currently viable. The change to SoC made might-DE uninteresting because you drop too much dps now, herald has a HUGE ramp up time which isnt acceptable, and all other alternatives are 5 man. Not saying those cant be used, but 10man is usually easier to coordinate than having to search for 2x 5 man might stackers.

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I'd love to see more pugmanders being open-minded to druid + a different healer and hopefully it's just a matter of time and adjustment that we'll see more variants. At the moment we (just) have

    • stalled views
    • people with already geared druids
    • some very bad pocket heal druids (staff only, kinda useless pets, bad CA management, no usage of meaningful utilities & traits for certain encounters)

    The problem with the last point I made is: If your solo druid dies (I know shouldn't happen imho) and you have a different 2nd healer you'll most likely lack might, fury etc. and that's also a reason for pugmanders to take two of them because you'll never know.
    In my static (and I know of some others as well) we don't use double druid for the full clear and either have a solo druid for most of the bosses or another 2nd healer to achieve a smooth run.
    Let's see what the future will bring. I'm confident as I have been in pug squads that had scourge healers as well as revs, fbs and tempests in the past 2 months.

    For lfg squads its generally speaking way better to run with bannerwarrior and PS trait. You can throw on dumplings and already provide around 15+ might with food alone on that build. Thats your spare might buffer, if you really want to go and plan your comp around someone failing constantly. Then all mentioned healer builds offer varying degrees of 5-10man might output.

    Im sorry, but Im a bit sick of people making excuses for druids. You dont bring a third chrono "just in case" one of your chronos dies (or is bad), and nobody considers bringing a backup bannerwarrior "just in case" banners dont get placed. Quite a lot dps builds buff themselves fury and some might upon reaching a certain point, so imo, druid isnt quite as irreplacable and important as the raiding community tries to make him. If he dies, he dies. If he's afk staff healing, you kick him and get a better one.

    This "oh but we need a spare one" mentality is just so very very inefficient, and tbh insulting to mediocre to good druids.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My question when did Laila Lightness stop stomping into any druid theads want it gone, into trying to trick people they cared about druid all along?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    For lfg squads its generally speaking way better to run with bannerwarrior and PS trait. You can throw on dumplings and already provide around 15+ might with food alone on that build. Thats your spare might buffer, if you really want to go and plan your comp around someone failing constantly. Then all mentioned healer builds offer varying degrees of 5-10man might output.

    Yeah, but for that you have to implement that into the common pugmander brain. I doubt that there will be easy agreements within pug squads unless you don't specify it from the start to want a bs with ps trait. Again: Time will tell.

    Im sorry, but Im a bit sick of people making excuses for druids. You dont bring a third chrono "just in case" one of your chronos dies (or is bad), and nobody considers bringing a backup bannerwarrior "just in case" banners dont get placed. Quite a lot dps builds buff themselves fury and some might upon reaching a certain point, so imo, druid isnt quite as irreplacable and important as the raiding community tries to make him. If he dies, he dies. If he's afk staff healing, you kick him and get a better one.

    This "oh but we need a spare one" mentality is just so very very inefficient, and tbh insulting to mediocre to good druids.

    People don't make excuses for druids. The fact is: You don't need 2 healers so there isn't an absolute need to ask for a druid + xyz. It's just convenience as I mentioned before (ppl have druid geared and played them a lot). Same reason why people in fractals often ask for a "2dps + bs" instead of "2dps + bs or 3 dps". They are just used to it and the thing is: it works. 2 druids still work and it's no big deal to have both of them or a different healer if you want to kill bosses in pugs. It just doesn't matter although a different healer could bring some additional utility which is - again - not needed.
    Don't get me wrong, I said it in my post before: I'd love to see different variants. Just don't expect pugs to anticipate that fast. After the release of HoT people ran fractals with a meta from six months ago and it was horrible! I'm confident that we'll have a faster rethinking for raids.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    I would replace 1 druid with preaper at gorse. having double heal in general is a bad idea, makes it longer and puts more mechanics and kitten cc.
    i can understand double heal in certain hard bosses like matt,sh,dhuum, qadim only. for others it's scourge/temp/scrapper/fb since they give good buffs, condi cleanse on right and left and op heals. druid is just there for spirits, spotter, GoE and might. double druid really annoys me, gives no logic and wastes dps. and before anyone says "but safe safe" people shouldn't play raids if they want safe. just get good, and don't feed. i bet someone will tell me you need double heal at cairn vg and deimos. if the druid knows what to do and you have good dps you don't need it. whoever has low dps just kick. if you can't trust 1 druid to do all these, invite a 2nd druid and kick someone who's 1-2k lower cuz preaper or some meme spec then you have no idea what you're doing. better have the meme spec that the player knows how to play it and use it efficiently in all situations and actually carry people. if druid can't do things alone in easy bosses kick him, just like you would kick low dps who can't execute proper rotation. i would prefer 6 good preapers who do 13-15k at gorse than 7-12k weavers/de/holo/dd/dh/w.e and double druid. at least preapers can cc, survive, cleave, blind and they're cool bois :)

  • Deepcuts.9740Deepcuts.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    I see lots of hate towards Druids. But going so far as to wish Druids be a distant memory?
    A bit apocalyptic.
    When Druids will be gone and some other class takes their role, how long till that class is wished out of existence also?
    Don't wish others what you wouldn't wish for yourself.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:
    I would replace 1 druid with preaper at gorse. having double heal in general is a bad idea, makes it longer and puts more mechanics and kitten cc.
    i can understand double heal in certain hard bosses like matt,sh,dhuum, qadim only. for others it's scourge/temp/scrapper/fb since they give good buffs, condi cleanse on right and left and op heals. druid is just there for spirits, spotter, GoE and might. double druid really annoys me, gives no logic and wastes dps. and before anyone says "but safe safe" people shouldn't play raids if they want safe. just get good, and don't feed. i bet someone will tell me you need double heal at cairn vg and deimos. if the druid knows what to do and you have good dps you don't need it. whoever has low dps just kick. if you can't trust 1 druid to do all these, invite a 2nd druid and kick someone who's 1-2k lower cuz preaper or some meme spec then you have no idea what you're doing. better have the meme spec that the player knows how to play it and use it efficiently in all situations and actually carry people. if druid can't do things alone in easy bosses kick him, just like you would kick low dps who can't execute proper rotation. i would prefer 6 good preapers who do 13-15k at gorse than 7-12k weavers/de/holo/dd/dh/w.e and double druid. at least preapers can cc, survive, cleave, blind and they're cool bois :)

    K, will do that in my static. Oh wait, we are ten friends and for pugs your method won't work.

    If I (feel the) need to pug a boss my goal is to get the kill. I don't want to "snowcrows" any of my weekly kills and that's the same attitude of 99% of all other raiders in pug squads. People like "Omg double druid, i leave this is under my dignity." or "Are you kitten, a third heal on Matt?" and then leaving belong to the most trashy people I've met so far in raiding. There is no reason to leave or to call out anything. Get the kill with 10 men, leave and enjoy your reward. I'd rather take a 2nd druid to have a fast kill than debating 5-10 minutes in squad chat that this will destroy the speed run, resulting in taking one healer and finally wipe three times with worst case people leaving after those tries. This is far beyond intelligence.
    To all those people: Create your own squads, make it visible in the lfg and stop wasting time and your nerves (and of others). You have absolutely 0 rights to dictate stuff in other squads.
    It's well-known to many raiders out there that you don't need a 2nd healer but please you don't have to enlighten the raiding scene, you are as irrelevant as everyone else and you won't make things better if you trashtalk around.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • rabenpriester.7129rabenpriester.7129 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    People need to realize you can optimize for different scenarios and strengths and weaknesses of a group.

    PUGs: Just get the kill / wing. Just be extra safe.
    Static: Compromise between safe and fast, your guild leader should know the skill level of the group, how bored they are with the content, how fast they wanna go etc.
    Speedrun: If you want a challenge, go for it.
    PUG: If you want a challenge, state it in the LFG

    We can talk about it all we want, but at the end of the day, this problem will sort itself out.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:
    I would replace 1 druid with preaper at gorse. having double heal in general is a bad idea(...)

    That might be true, or not, but please do not discuss this here. This thread is explicitely for 2 healer comps

    As @rabenpriester.7129 quite nicely put, theres different basic concepts tailored to different expectations. LFG squads in general want a nice, safe, reasonably fast kill. 2 healer comps are tailored toward this end. The question isnt "can" you do it with 1 healer, but rather "do you want to".

    I pug a lot, on average 2-3 hours each day. The amount of players Id say that are good enough to go for a 1 druidhealer fullclear, is very small. Its not just the raw healing provided by a second healer, its also things like stability, aegis, and the amount of mechanics those 2nd healers do. Put succinctly, the second healer enables facetanking-golem-rotation-fixated dps players to feel like they are pros, when in truth, they are not even mediocre skilllevel.

    But then, why not make full use of this fact? Why not bring a second healer that actually really brings something additional to the squad? Why not use renegade healer to provide 10man instant 300 radius 100% alacrity, making your squad more flexible (chronos and firebrands can then provide quickness and blocks or dps)? Why not bring a tempest that can outheal nearly everything? Or a firebrand that can keep your squishy deadeyes alive and 100% scholar uptimed with aegis + stability? A scourge healer for auto-revive?

    Why, for the love of all, would you pick the worst healer for that second slot?

    From a druid perspective, even on desmina where you could remotely consider the possibility of a second druid for backup pushes, its not good. Two druids on desmina lfg squads means that the druid pushing cant focus on only giving might and pushing. Both druids have to give their best to keep everyone alive, while the pusher gets the added challenge of pushing golems out before some stray avatar3 or other stun interrupts the push. Its so much more easy if you have a real healer with you. You can focus on pushing, go into avatar every 20 seconds to refresh might, and generally have a way more relaxed -and safe- kill.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Such a second slot could and many cases should be considered a waste no matter which class you use for it. The most obvious choice, once people realized a single druid is able to maintain 25 Might, would be to not even have a second healer slot then. That is, if the issue is actually only about the Might.
    I don't deny that there better options than a second druid, all with their own benefits, not to mention most of them do provide decent might for at least their own party, but none of them are strictly needed unless you really struggle without the additional healing in which case anything is an improvement even the trusty second Druid.

    Its nice that you think one healer should always be enough and people just need to "git gud" but please, not here.

    While I value any input, this thread is specifically tailored towards the most commonly used lfg squad comp -> 2x chrono, 2x healer (see first post).

    Minimalistic support comps are not suited for the majority of the raid playerbase, and they are in no way suited for lfg squads that are comprised of people that never played together and all have different skill-levels.

    Also, you are wrong. Even a shoutwarrior would be more of an improvement than a 2nd druid.

    You seem to have misunderstood me there. Bring a second healer if you need one, "unless you really struggle without one" is what I said.
    Let me try again, you did say they insist on having a second Druid for the sole purpose of being able to provide 25 Might and then proceeded to go into a long explanation on about how one Druid is able to do it all by themselves. Guess you are telling Druids to "git gud" at providing Might then?
    Chuckles aside, you seem to greatly underestimate what a single Druid can do if you think they are close to useless in comparison with the other builds you mentioned, even more so as the second Druid would be free to run Lingering Light being the second healer. Unless you yourself think the second Druid needs to have GOTL even though one can provide all of the Might needed.
    And no, I am not saying there aren't better options if you need to have a second healer. I simply think it is a bit much to claim anything would be better. PuG commanders go with what they know and they always assume Druids (or anything really) to be mediocre and struggle at pretty much everything, including Might. Thus they insist on having both which is indeed silly.

    No, Im not telling druids to "git gud", Im saying its so laughably easy that failing at it is a huge embarassement and should never be tolerated. Theres nothing, absolutely nothing, difficult about providing might, spirits and fury on a druid. Either you cant because your squad is so spread out that, and then its not your fault at all... and you cant change anything, or you are just plain afk. Yes, even a mediocre druid will be able to provide those things. The difference between a good druid and a mediocre druid is how good he can predict and cope with special situations... NOT how much might, spirit and fury uptime he can provide.
    Im not "underestimating" druid healing. Ive been a druid main since HoT release up until PoF. Lingering lights is a very bad joke, even Ancient Seeds has more use than a trait that makes your healing more overheal than it already is. The problem is NOT not enough healing on druid, the problem is that you are locked out of your healing in critical moments. Other healer builds do NOT have this problem and in addition bring certain extras that benefit your squad immensely.
    Tbh, I think you are just so stuck in your "2 druids is fine" spiel, that you dont even realize how slackening a second druid is compared to ALL alternatives.

    Interesting comparison and assumption about the spiel I am supposed to be stuck on.
    What does make a Druid good? Now that is debatable. One could say what makes you good is to not struggle to solo heal and to be able to predict moments where your squad needs big healing to not be locked out of Avatar Form combined with providing the Might needed. Or one could take the route you did with your complaint about Might and put the blame on the squad as their movement or mistakes cause some of the downstates which is obviously never your fault. But of course that would be mean and me telling them to "git gud" again and we would have gone full circle...

    Your Banner Warrior comparison is a good one. A second warrior may be a waste, and no I wouldn't take one either, but the Discipline version does come quite close to the better DPS builds out there which makes it far less of a waste than you think, not unlike what you said about Druids.
    Which means having two druids is only slightly worse than having any other healer present. You are basically picking something that is slightly less of a waste than a second Druid but a waste nonetheless. Once again, have your Firebrand or Renengade with their unique benefits if you really need a second healer. I never said they aren't more useful than second Druid even if not to the crazy degree you make them out to be. You seem to be offended by the fact that I do not call them a complete waste.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    I would replace 1 druid with preaper at gorse. having double heal in general is a bad idea, makes it longer and puts more mechanics and kitten cc.
    i can understand double heal in certain hard bosses like matt,sh,dhuum, qadim only. for others it's scourge/temp/scrapper/fb since they give good buffs, condi cleanse on right and left and op heals. druid is just there for spirits, spotter, GoE and might. double druid really annoys me, gives no logic and wastes dps. and before anyone says "but safe safe" people shouldn't play raids if they want safe. just get good, and don't feed. i bet someone will tell me you need double heal at cairn vg and deimos. if the druid knows what to do and you have good dps you don't need it. whoever has low dps just kick. if you can't trust 1 druid to do all these, invite a 2nd druid and kick someone who's 1-2k lower cuz preaper or some meme spec then you have no idea what you're doing. better have the meme spec that the player knows how to play it and use it efficiently in all situations and actually carry people. if druid can't do things alone in easy bosses kick him, just like you would kick low dps who can't execute proper rotation. i would prefer 6 good preapers who do 13-15k at gorse than 7-12k weavers/de/holo/dd/dh/w.e and double druid. at least preapers can cc, survive, cleave, blind and they're cool bois :)

    K, will do that in my static. Oh wait, we are ten friends and for pugs your method won't work.

    If I (feel the) need to pug a boss my goal is to get the kill. I don't want to "snowcrows" any of my weekly kills and that's the same attitude of 99% of all other raiders in pug squads. People like "Omg double druid, i leave this is under my dignity." or "Are you kitten, a third heal on Matt?" and then leaving belong to the most trashy people I've met so far in raiding. There is no reason to leave or to call out anything. Get the kill with 10 men, leave and enjoy your reward. I'd rather take a 2nd druid to have a fast kill than debating 5-10 minutes in squad chat that this will destroy the speed run, resulting in taking one healer and finally wipe three times with worst case people leaving after those tries. This is far beyond intelligence.
    To all those people: Create your own squads, make it visible in the lfg and stop wasting time and your nerves (and of others). You have absolutely 0 rights to dictate stuff in other squads.
    It's well-known to many raiders out there that you don't need a 2nd healer but please you don't have to enlighten the raiding scene, you are as irrelevant as everyone else and you won't make things better if you trashtalk around.

    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid. people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better. what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Why bring that one healer which you already have and that cant add anything else to the squad?

    Well I would say that people do it because of the double druid times of HoT. Druids in HoT could heal for more but they also had an unique buff that was just straight broken. GotL was a straight damage boost that could hit 5 people so groups needed 2 of them to give the whole group enough GotL. Even after buffing it up to 10 man people brought in 2 druids for enough grace and to give everyone the spirits ( 10-man spirits were introduced after PoF release ), you were basically gimping your group if you replaced a druid with another healer. Also the other healer option back then were heal tempest and herald. Tempest just brought heals and geyser instead of good offensive buffs and herald was considered too finicky.

    We had this double druid stuff for a whole expansion, which made sure that people who wanted to heal geared up druids and since other potential healers were so rare that some people considered them myths, the idea of other healers being useful is coming to them very slowly. Its basically so engrained in peoples mind that its a very slow process to make them aware that other healers are really good. Even in static groups its basically a slow annoying proccess to get in another healing class. " Heal scourge isn't doing anything....Tempest is too much healing.... 1 Druid can't give 25 might to everyone... etc.etc"

    The only advantage a second druid brings is allowing the first druid to be a bit more flexible with his utility skills and some traits.

  • Rodrick.1942Rodrick.1942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

    Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

    Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

    Good point!

    He just doesn't understand that the topic isn't about his static or pug group. He didn't get we were talking about the whole raiding community and not the ones that can clear content as fast as possible including speed runners.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

    Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

    total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    also another solution. replace 2nd healer with banner warr healer with cc. you don't have to sacrifice a dps spot for banners, ea, cc. so you can have 6 dpsers.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

    Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

    total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

    All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

    Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

    total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

    All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

    for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

    Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

    total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

    All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

    for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

    Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

    Besides, if you are putting in a extra dps player, you are actually making it easier on the DPS as they can hit lower numbers with 7 people than when you have 6. So this whole convo about having a second healer is making it easy is just moot point. Having a extra healer and one less DPS just shift the issue from "not get hit often or die for lack of healing" to "hit harder or die to enrage".

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2019

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

    Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

    total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

    All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

    for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

    Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

    Besides, if you are putting in a extra dps player, you are actually making it easier on the DPS as they can hit lower numbers with 7 people than when you have 6. So this whole convo about having a second healer is making it easy is just moot point. Having a extra healer and one less DPS just shift the issue from "not get hit often or die for lack of healing" to "hit harder or die to enrage".

    Agreed completely. Additionally there are challenge motes for most of the bosses.
    It's ok to look for an extra challenge but the minority of players is seeking that in aforesaid content every week over and over again. Go low-manning or soloing stuff like we've seen from Sesshi or Roul (and others) in the past. In my opinion it's insane to put extra pressure on stuff you want to beat with others unless you don't want that extra challenge which is totally fine. You just need to look out for those groups or creating them by yourself. Still I don't advice trying to highjack a run-of-the-mill lfg that only wants to beat a boss and annoy them by your personal, in this case useless thoughts about the team composition.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Rodrick.1942 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

    That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

    people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

    Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

    what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

    I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

    people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

    Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

    total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

    All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

    for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

    Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

    Besides, if you are putting in a extra dps player, you are actually making it easier on the DPS as they can hit lower numbers with 7 people than when you have 6. So this whole convo about having a second healer is making it easy is just moot point. Having a extra healer and one less DPS just shift the issue from "not get hit often or die for lack of healing" to "hit harder or die to enrage".

    it won't increase the chance at all. it only increase the chance in like 3-4 bosses. everything else having a 2nd healer will just make it longer and face more mechanics. for single healer you don't take druid for the sake of healing but for the sake of might and other buffs. single druid also has roles as pusher, entangle etc.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:
    for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

    AND

    @Yonatan.5143 said:
    it won't increase the chance at all. it only increase the chance in like 3-4 bosses. everything else having a 2nd healer will just make it longer and face more mechanics. for single healer you don't take druid for the sake of healing but for the sake of might and other buffs. single druid also has roles as pusher, entangle etc.

    Completely irrelevant. This thread is about 2 healer+2 buffer comps, the currently most played comp in lfg squads. Please keep "but you dont need a second healer" out of this thread, this thread was NOT intended by me as a platform to discuss the comp itself. If you want to discuss that, please open a new thread and discuss it there.

    To make this clear, I dont want this discussion here because of very good reasons, those being:
    a) The majority of people posting stuff like "2 healers is a crutch, man up, git gud" cant even be bothered to sidestep dhuum marks and rely on second healers quite heavily in lfg squads.
    b) Its time to acknowledge that theres a sort of "lfg squad meta comp" with different goals from the SC/DnT/LN/Whatever speedclear comps. That meta needs to be discussed for lfg raiding to become even remotely enjoyable - and thereby raids more attractive, more accessible to newer / more casual players. And it needs to be discussed without trolls constantly harping in, telling everyone how bad they are just for considering a second healer.
    c) Without a baseline this thread will devolve in namecalling and people calling others toxic, elitist or bad. The comp is this baseline. If you dont like it, refrain from posting, this thread is NOT for you then.

    Again, this thread is for discussions about the second healer in a comp consisting off:
    2 healers
    2 buffers
    1 bannerwarrior
    5 DPS

    This thread is NOT for speedclears or lowman stuff, or the discussion of why speedclears and lowman stuff is "better" or "worse".

    idc. freedom of speech.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Henry.5713 said:
    Such a second slot could and many cases should be considered a waste no matter which class you use for it. The most obvious choice, once people realized a single druid is able to maintain 25 Might, would be to not even have a second healer slot then. That is, if the issue is actually only about the Might.
    I don't deny that there better options than a second druid, all with their own benefits, not to mention most of them do provide decent might for at least their own party, but none of them are strictly needed unless you really struggle without the additional healing in which case anything is an improvement even the trusty second Druid.

    Its nice that you think one healer should always be enough and people just need to "git gud" but please, not here.

    While I value any input, this thread is specifically tailored towards the most commonly used lfg squad comp -> 2x chrono, 2x healer (see first post).

    Minimalistic support comps are not suited for the majority of the raid playerbase, and they are in no way suited for lfg squads that are comprised of people that never played together and all have different skill-levels.

    Also, you are wrong. Even a shoutwarrior would be more of an improvement than a 2nd druid.

    You seem to have misunderstood me there. Bring a second healer if you need one, "unless you really struggle without one" is what I said.
    Let me try again, you did say they insist on having a second Druid for the sole purpose of being able to provide 25 Might and then proceeded to go into a long explanation on about how one Druid is able to do it all by themselves. Guess you are telling Druids to "git gud" at providing Might then?
    Chuckles aside, you seem to greatly underestimate what a single Druid can do if you think they are close to useless in comparison with the other builds you mentioned, even more so as the second Druid would be free to run Lingering Light being the second healer. Unless you yourself think the second Druid needs to have GOTL even though one can provide all of the Might needed.
    And no, I am not saying there aren't better options if you need to have a second healer. I simply think it is a bit much to claim anything would be better. PuG commanders go with what they know and they always assume Druids (or anything really) to be mediocre and struggle at pretty much everything, including Might. Thus they insist on having both which is indeed silly.

    No, Im not telling druids to "git gud", Im saying its so laughably easy that failing at it is a huge embarassement and should never be tolerated. Theres nothing, absolutely nothing, difficult about providing might, spirits and fury on a druid. Either you cant because your squad is so spread out that, and then its not your fault at all... and you cant change anything, or you are just plain afk. Yes, even a mediocre druid will be able to provide those things. The difference between a good druid and a mediocre druid is how good he can predict and cope with special situations... NOT how much might, spirit and fury uptime he can provide.
    Im not "underestimating" druid healing. Ive been a druid main since HoT release up until PoF. Lingering lights is a very bad joke, even Ancient Seeds has more use than a trait that makes your healing more overheal than it already is. The problem is NOT not enough healing on druid, the problem is that you are locked out of your healing in critical moments. Other healer builds do NOT have this problem and in addition bring certain extras that benefit your squad immensely.
    Tbh, I think you are just so stuck in your "2 druids is fine" spiel, that you dont even realize how slackening a second druid is compared to ALL alternatives.

    Interesting comparison and assumption about the spiel I am supposed to be stuck on.
    What does make a Druid good? Now that is debatable. One could say what makes you good is to not struggle to solo heal and to be able to predict moments where your squad needs big healing to not be locked out of Avatar Form combined with providing the Might needed. Or one could take the route you did with your complaint about Might and put the blame on the squad as their movement or mistakes cause some of the downstates which is obviously never your fault. But of course that would be mean and me telling them to "git gud" again and we would have gone full circle...

    Here's a few examples for you to think about.
    VG -> Outhealing greens. Before the first green even spawns you already have to use the "big heals" because dps players, especially dhs, like to stand in VG cleave, while other dps players - mainly DEs - get ported and loose 1/3 of their health everytime. You'd need constant about 3k healing but druid always has a gap where healing drops to only regen ticks.
    Gorseval -> Slow cc because dps havent found their cc buttons to smash. Theres a point, even if you do everything perfectly, have full avatar on beginning of the cc phase, that you run out of healing on a druid. "Good" druids can prolong this a bit with blasting a certain waterfield, but thats it. Slow to no cc gorseval shows you imo quite nicely the limitations of druid as a healer.
    Sabetha -> Karde and after phase. People stand in cannons, in Karde's flamethrower, turrets dont get focused. Kiting druid starts trying to heal more and maybe even places a few burning fields near the group, which ofc that DE is gonna stand in.
    Etc. Thats all things that I see on a daily basis in lfg raids. Did the druid do anything wrong? No. Healing on druid is designed to have this gap. To be burst healing and not constant healing. LFG squads however profit quite a lot from constant healing since you always have at least those players that just face tanks nearly every mechanic.
    Ofc you could kick those players that practically force you to run something with constant healing. But as a commander you got other stuff to do than go check after each try which player ate the most dmg, then evaluate if it was due to failed mechanics or something harmless like rezzing someone downed in poison while he got healed up. Thats the kind of thing I do for my static, but sure as hell not for lfg squads.
    As a lfg squad commander you learn to overlook stuff like that and just adapt your expectations - and your comp. At least good lfg squad commanders do that.
    Sadly theres quite a lot of copy&paste lfg commanders out there, that just take the most commonly used comp in speedclears, multiply supporters in it until they only need about 2 pulls per boss, and call that "meta". Hence this thread.

    VG - Green explosions can be water field blasted with the additional Cultivated Synergy buffed Glyth of Rejuvenation heal to back it up. Leaving you free to use your Avatar off cooldown to stack might and previde constant healing while it is up.
    Gorseval - Slow CC is a little tougher but you can handle it by using the same healing skill combination at first and only go into Avatar last second which gives you enough time. "Avatar 1 spam" even allows you to pinpoint target those outside of your own group going low.
    Funny you mention Gorseval. It is the one boss where I certainly take my Druid over any other build for this reason alone. Each their own, I guess.
    Sebetha - The flame thrower is easily predictable which allows you to have your Avatar or the healing blast combo ready. People eating every cannon hit and flames being placed badly is an issue but not one you can't handle by having blasts, the Glyth of Rejuvenation and Avatar ready. The trick is to not use them together. Be more conservative with your cooldowns.

    Just for the sake of a detailed discussion, any of these situations can be handled by a single Druid. I have been doing so for a very long time, including runs with training groups I have run with. Thus I would have to assume that I am either able to do more than two mediocre Druids combined or that you are overexaggerating a second Druid's (or even the first Druid's) uselessness when it comes to healing. Hell, it has become something like a running joke with my static squad that players outside of my group try to kill themselves on Gorseval retalitation while I make sure to stop them. A second Druid would have to do close to nothing to be as useless as you claim.

    But yes, this is about a second healer. And once again, I still do not say there aren't better options for a second healer. Firebrands and especially Renegades do pretty well in this regard. They allow you to spam your healing skills more freely while providing additional boons such as squad-wide alacrity or quickness as you mentioned. I fully agree with that. Trust me, I have played them (and support Scourge and Tempest) more than enough myself. All of them have their own weaknesses a Druid does not have. Some have more of them, some have less.
    That said, having to be the second healer... would I pick a Druid in most cases? No, obviously not. Most groups which suffer in terms of healing are at the level where they also suffer from a lack of Quickness or Alacrity which makes Firebrands or Renegades the prime builds to pick. Not to mention the additional group Might they provide. But do I think I would be useless if I played a second Druid? No, not even close.

    We can agree to disagree on this one. You are either talking about Druids who do close to nothing right or I am blinded by my own, I dare to say, rather good Druid play. Probably a little of both.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel like we are constantly talking past each other. My whole point was that upkeeping might, fury and spirits is so easy that really everyone can do it. If you cant deliver that, then you shouldnt be doing endcontent at all.
    This as answer to the "but what if the druid we have cant upkeep might" argument that gets put before me everytime I say any other healer is better as a second healer than druid.

    In no way am I saying that you need a second healer, for anything in gw2. But since most lfg squads like the idea of a second healer... then at least... PLEASE go for one of the other options since every other healer brings at least one additional thing that will speed up your kills, compared to 2nd druid.

    2x tank chrono, 2x druid is the worst comp you can run atm. :(

  • reapex.8546reapex.8546 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hey,

    this thread only concerns comps with 2x boon support + 2x healer.

    Harrier Renegade
    The chronos can remove WoR and bring Precog Well or mimic or DE or Feedback or whatever is best suited. And instead of having to search hours for that >elusive tank chrono you can also just let the Renegade tank while bringing in a quickbrand or healbrand for quickness and fury. Healbrand in particular is easy to >play as well, in contrast to chrono.

    Hi Yasi,

    1) What does DE stand for in reference to Chrono?
    You mention it with a Harrier Renegade.
    2) 10 Man Fury.
    FB Axe only supplies might to 5 people correct?
    I'm guessing one Chrono will use SOI on the fury they receive from the FB Healer then the 2nd chrono will use SOI to cover the other subgroup.
    Or did you have a different idea on how to apply 10 man fury, like Feel My Wraith?
    I also discovered Valor instead of Virtues can spam out fury. So, that's an alternative as well.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    @reapex.8546 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hey,

    this thread only concerns comps with 2x boon support + 2x healer.

    Harrier Renegade
    The chronos can remove WoR and bring Precog Well or mimic or DE or Feedback or whatever is best suited. And instead of having to search hours for that >elusive tank chrono you can also just let the Renegade tank while bringing in a quickbrand or healbrand for quickness and fury. Healbrand in particular is easy to >play as well, in contrast to chrono.

    Hi Yasi,

    1) What does DE stand for in reference to Chrono?
    You mention it with a Harrier Renegade.
    2) 10 Man Fury.
    FB Axe only supplies might to 5 people correct?
    I'm guessing one Chrono will use SOI on the fury they receive from the FB Healer then the 2nd chrono will use SOI to cover the other subgroup.
    Or did you have a different idea on how to apply 10 man fury, like Feel My Wraith?
    I also discovered Valor instead of Virtues can spam out fury. So, that's an alternative as well.

    1. Illusionary Disenchanter (phantasm)
    2. The thing about fury is, that you need to provide at the most 60% and thats if you have a diviners renegade. For all other builds its more like 40% overall or only cover 100% until boss reaches < 75% or only a starter fury to get them going. So for example any healer with 100% boon duration wouldnt even need to bring anything for fury for his subgrp, just picking up the discipline banner and using skill2 (and 3) regularly already does the trick. If you dont want to do that, then theres quite a lot of different possibilties, like elite shout on firebrand (depending on boonduration thats between 27-55%), or axe symbol (100%). Other builds like renegade healer or heal scourge have to resort to banner-shenanigans, but its honestly not a big problem. You usually have enough time for it - other than for example a chrono with its rather tight rotation to maximize dps.
    3. Trading Virtues for Valor means you loose the passive heal from f2 tome, tome cooldown reduce, longer retal duration and condi remove on f2 activation. You gain an extra aegis when you block something. In my opinion absolutely not worth it, and put succinctly, also not necessary. On most bosses you want to bring an axe anyway because the pull is quite nice on adds, and just swapping to it when fury runs out already is enough... you dont have to camp axe all the time. Btw axe fury is currently bugged and doesnt pulse around the symbol, but rather around the fb. Probably gonna get adressed next balance patch in 2 months or so.
    4. For might Id suggest bringing a druid anyway. So far druid is unsurpassed in that area. No other build can stack might as fast, as regularly and its on 10 people on top of that. Trying to get enough might together in squads without a druid is a bit of a nightmare. FB/Ren can do it with a core bannerwarrior running dumplings taking care of one grp and a harrier renegade with a diviners firebrand in the other grp. But thats something for statics, not really suited for lfg squads (yet?). That druid, btw, doesnt have to be heal... a viper condi druid is just as sufficient.
  • Grogba.6204Grogba.6204 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    @Draco.9480 said:

    idc. freedom of speech.

    You know what's ironic? Your attitude. Why? Because it is the number one reason why raids are not as popular as they could be and Teapot is absolutely right that people like you are killing off raids faster than any "Casul scum" ever could.

    I like raids but we have to face and accept reality. And that reality tells us that less than 10% of the players registered on GW2efficiency have even one Legendary Divination. Less than 10 pecent! And that is only from a website that is heavily skewed towards the more invested players in the first place and it is very likely that the number is even lower in total and Anet's metrics. If you check CM clear percentage it, too, is insanely low compared to the players playing the content. Nevermind those players doing the CMs accross multiple accounts or outright buying them.

    These numbers are concerning because in the end, you can continue to look down on players requiring more than one healer in raidcontent all you like but keep in mind that Anet has to make a profit from the content they design and developing content for a minority of a minority (the speedrun level/lowman crowd and benchmark creators) is simply put not sustainable.

    But sure, belittle Yasi, Vinceman and the others for improving the quality of life in PUG-raiding. If you want Anet to push out more raids and at a faster rate gatekeeping the content is the fastest way to accomplish the opposite.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Druid can blast a lot... a lot newbie druid doesn't do much skills combo .. but two water fields multiple blasts and with traits that reduce CD to get more blast.. these are on top of the regen.. druid can basically heal around the clock

    Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
    Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.

  • Draco.9480Draco.9480 Member ✭✭✭

    @Grogba.6204 said:

    @Draco.9480 said:

    idc. freedom of speech.

    You know what's ironic? Your attitude. Why? Because it is the number one reason why raids are not as popular as they could be and Teapot is absolutely right that people like you are killing off raids faster than any "Casul scum" ever could.

    I like raids but we have to face and accept reality. And that reality tells us that less than 10% of the players registered on GW2efficiency have even one Legendary Divination. Less than 10 pecent! And that is only from a website that is heavily skewed towards the more invested players in the first place and it is very likely that the number is even lower in total and Anet's metrics. If you check CM clear percentage it, too, is insanely low compared to the players playing the content. Nevermind those players doing the CMs accross multiple accounts or outright buying them.

    These numbers are concerning because in the end, you can continue to look down on players requiring more than one healer in raidcontent all you like but keep in mind that Anet has to make a profit from the content they design and developing content for a minority of a minority (the speedrun level/lowman crowd and benchmark creators) is simply put not sustainable.

    But sure, belittle Yasi, Vinceman and the others for improving the quality of life in PUG-raiding. If you want Anet to push out more raids and at a faster rate gatekeeping the content is the fastest way to accomplish the opposite.

    not my problem people can't play properly and use invalid builds/comps and feed to ai. so i'm not allowed to have freedom of speech cuz majority can't play raids? what kind of logic is that. if the truth hurts people then why play in mmorpg in the first place? it's the internet. deal with it. if you don't push players to be better, they won't be better. if it sets 'em off they'll never be better cuz being offended over people like me who "talk down" on people isn't an argument.

  • reapex.8546reapex.8546 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:

    @reapex.8546 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hey,

    this thread only concerns comps with 2x boon support + 2x healer.

    Harrier Renegade
    The chronos can remove WoR and bring Precog Well or mimic or DE or Feedback or whatever is best suited. And instead of having to search hours for that >elusive tank chrono you can also just let the Renegade tank while bringing in a quickbrand or healbrand for quickness and fury. Healbrand in particular is easy to >play as well, in contrast to chrono.

    Hi Yasi,

    1) What does DE stand for in reference to Chrono?
    You mention it with a Harrier Renegade.
    2) 10 Man Fury.
    FB Axe only supplies might to 5 people correct?
    I'm guessing one Chrono will use SOI on the fury they receive from the FB Healer then the 2nd chrono will use SOI to cover the other subgroup.
    Or did you have a different idea on how to apply 10 man fury, like Feel My Wraith?
    I also discovered Valor instead of Virtues can spam out fury. So, that's an alternative as well.

    1. Illusionary Disenchanter (phantasm)
    2. The thing about fury is, that you need to provide at the most 60% and thats if you have a diviners renegade. For all other builds its more like 40% overall or only cover 100% until boss reaches < 75% or only a starter fury to get them going. So for example any healer with 100% boon duration wouldnt even need to bring anything for fury for his subgrp, just picking up the discipline banner and using skill2 (and 3) regularly already does the trick. If you dont want to do that, then theres quite a lot of different possibilties, like elite shout on firebrand (depending on boonduration thats between 27-55%), or axe symbol (100%). Other builds like renegade healer or heal scourge have to resort to banner-shenanigans, but its honestly not a big problem. You usually have enough time for it - other than for example a chrono with its rather tight rotation to maximize dps.
    3. Trading Virtues for Valor means you loose the passive heal from f2 tome, tome cooldown reduce, longer retal duration and condi remove on f2 activation. You gain an extra aegis when you block something. In my opinion absolutely not worth it, and put succinctly, also not necessary. On most bosses you want to bring an axe anyway because the pull is quite nice on adds, and just swapping to it when fury runs out already is enough... you dont have to camp axe all the time. Btw axe fury is currently bugged and doesnt pulse around the symbol, but rather around the fb. Probably gonna get adressed next balance patch in 2 months or so.
    4. For might Id suggest bringing a druid anyway. So far druid is unsurpassed in that area. No other build can stack might as fast, as regularly and its on 10 people on top of that. Trying to get enough might together in squads without a druid is a bit of a nightmare. FB/Ren can do it with a core bannerwarrior running dumplings taking care of one grp and a harrier renegade with a diviners firebrand in the other grp. But thats something for statics, not really suited for lfg squads (yet?). That druid, btw, doesnt have to be heal... a viper condi druid is just as sufficient.

    1) Illusionary Disenchnater is DE? Thought that would be IDE. Thank you.
    2) Great info, its what I realized later on but I didn't think of the discipline banner, thank you.
    3) Yeah, I realized the symbol of vengeance was bug when I tested it. Hopefully, will get fixed soon.
    4) Yeah, a viper druid is an alternative.

    Thanks for the follow up :D

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

    Succeeding is not fun at all, on itself, imo. May be first time, may be even after the 2nd run (but much less), but what fun in routinely beating the same content 5-10 times in a row? That doesn't make sense. Good game generates fun while you play it, not only at the end. If you only have fun at the brief moment at the end of the long run - why do you even play it? It seems like you're doing a chore, and it's better to do chores IRL instead, preferable at a fixed $/hour rate. By ensuring you'll beat it, you are effectively killing the game aspect of it.

  • @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:
    Succeeding is not fun at all, on itself, imo. May be first time, may be even after the 2nd run (but much less), but what fun in routinely beating the same content 5-10 times in a row? That doesn't make sense. Good game generates fun while you play it, not only at the end. If you only have fun at the brief moment at the end of the long run - why do you even play it? It seems like you're doing a chore, and it's better to do chores IRL instead, preferable at a fixed $/hour rate. By ensuring you'll beat it, you are effectively killing the game aspect of it.

    Speak for yourself. If you're at the point where you already have several legendary pieces or 400+ Legendary Insights, then sure, who cares whether a boss dies, you're not doing it to beat them any more. But when you're still on the way there and every pug you join is a gamble whether their eminence the squad leader will debase themselves so far to take on someone like you who has only 100-200 LIs outside of a fruitless training raid, you're very happy to put better prospects towards beating the boss over 'teh challeng'.

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2019

    @GeraldBC.4927 said:
    If you're at the point where you already have several legendary pieces or 400+ Legendary Insights, then sure, who cares whether a boss dies, you're not doing it to beat them any more. But when you're still on the way there

    On the way where, sorry? And what is so special about that vague destination you want to sacrifice a fun of playing a game for it, and instead turn it into a chore? I really hope you're being paid for that hard work, with hard enough coin )) Otherwise I fail to see any reason in such decision. Getting anywhere in an online game like this one (not even a real cybersport kind of game, where you could get something from it, in the end; though, cybersports... meh, whatever :P ) is an utterly pointless achievement which brings literally nothing (even those digits on remote servers don't actually belong to you, if you'll check the EULA). Zero, nill. Only the game and fun it brings with it does matter, in the end, and chores are better done IRL, at a good $/hour rate.

    @GeraldBC.4927 said:
    and every pug you join is a gamble whether their eminence the squad leader will debase themselves so far to take on someone like you who has only 100-200 LIs outside of a fruitless training raid, you're very happy to put better prospects towards beating the boss over 'teh challeng'.

    I would say it's time to find a good, seemingly-minded people and play with them on constant basis instead. I would, if it wasn't a total inversion of the actual situation out there. It's much, much more likely you'll encounter a leader which is extremely toxic and demanding, and has the only goal of beating everything as fast as possible because he is obsessed with that "getting there" thing and can't waste a single extra minute to play the actual game and have some fun. But hey, if you indeed bump into groups doing it for fun and challenge on regular basis, be a good fella and send me their contacts. Because I'm having hard times finding any, actually ;)

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

    Succeeding is not fun at all, on itself, imo. May be first time, may be even after the 2nd run (but much less), but what fun in routinely beating the same content 5-10 times in a row? That doesn't make sense. Good game generates fun while you play it, not only at the end. If you only have fun at the brief moment at the end of the long run - why do you even play it? It seems like you're doing a chore, and it's better to do chores IRL instead, preferable at a fixed $/hour rate. By ensuring you'll beat it, you are effectively killing the game aspect of it.

    Succeeding is important for morale, the how is important as well. However, I really dont get the "a second healer makes all bosses trivial" argument. Because if you choose the right one, it wont, and most of the time - at least if you arent in a hardcore raiding guild - the right second healer actually means more squad dps.
    Take harrier renegade for example. It brings faster cc on a low cd, 10man alacrity, 10-25% kalla elite uptime on 10 man and AP for 5. All this while bringing also quite a lot of healing for ignoring mechanics.
    Firebrand, brings high scholar uptime thanks to the lots of small healing ticks + aegis, quickness for 5 man, etc.
    Healscourge brings vampiric aura for 5 and barrier on 10, again letting you ignore quite a lot of mechanics. Like heal rev it brings a lot of cc and extra utility. Sufficient epidemic on some boss encounters with plaguedoctors/marshal.

    Of course, theres a point where you wont need a second healer anymore - in a static.

    In LFG squads, the skill level is too varied, and the squad isnt well attuned.... its just not a static but 10 random players. You loose way more dps from not having 100% boon uptime, high scholar uptime, miscommunication as to where tank moves next (and when) and my favourite - slow cc, than you gain from one more dps player.

    Yes, in theory you'll never need a second healer. But in reality, it smooths discrepancies in communication, little personal mistakes and - how to put this delicately - its a utility slot for all those pesky mechanics every dps player thinks someone else should do because his dps is just way to important and precious.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

    Succeeding is not fun at all, on itself, imo. May be first time, may be even after the 2nd run (but much less), but what fun in routinely beating the same content 5-10 times in a row? That doesn't make sense. Good game generates fun while you play it, not only at the end. If you only have fun at the brief moment at the end of the long run - why do you even play it? It seems like you're doing a chore, and it's better to do chores IRL instead, preferable at a fixed $/hour rate. By ensuring you'll beat it, you are effectively killing the game aspect of it.

    Actually, using 2 healers is more natural or in tune with the games mechanics compared to 1 healer for 10 people. Even now a vast majority of abilities target only 5 people maximum, thus 1 sub group.

    The fact that Arenanet has opened up the ability and made it easier to solo heal raid content, mostly to free up dedicated spots to other roles, is still not any where near where one could say that the game is designed around 1 heal. Static groups or very skilled PUG groups might be able to improve their game play far enough to be able to break mechanics, most players do not though.

    Succeeding is fun because it is part of a process. The first boss kill will be the most rewarding for just about any player. Subsequent boss kills will feel less rewarding but even then there are distinctions between how well a run overall went. I think you are over emphasizing how important the success part of a boss kill is given how much effort and practice some people need to put in.

    At the same time, very high skilled players continue to try to find faster and more efficient ways to beat content. To most regular or less experienced players this might seem off too. Breaking content so hard that bosses die in 2 minutes or less. Then again, it's once again the journey and challenge to them on a higher level.

    To each their own.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2019

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @GeraldBC.4927 said:
    If you're at the point where you already have several legendary pieces or 400+ Legendary Insights, then sure, who cares whether a boss dies, you're not doing it to beat them any more. But when you're still on the way there

    On the way where, sorry? And what is so special about that vague destination you want to sacrifice a fun of playing a game for it, and instead turn it into a chore? I really hope you're being paid for that hard work, with hard enough coin )) Otherwise I fail to see any reason in such decision. Getting anywhere in an online game like this one (not even a real cybersport kind of game, where you could get something from it, in the end; though, cybersports... meh, whatever :P ) is an utterly pointless achievement which brings literally nothing (even those digits on remote servers don't actually belong to you, if you'll check the EULA). Zero, nill. Only the game and fun it brings with it does matter, in the end, and chores are better done IRL, at a good $/hour rate.

    @GeraldBC.4927 said:
    and every pug you join is a gamble whether their eminence the squad leader will debase themselves so far to take on someone like you who has only 100-200 LIs outside of a fruitless training raid, you're very happy to put better prospects towards beating the boss over 'teh challeng'.

    I would say it's time to find a good, seemingly-minded people and play with them on constant basis instead. I would, if it wasn't a total inversion of the actual situation out there. It's much, much more likely you'll encounter a leader which is extremely toxic and demanding, and has the only goal of beating everything as fast as possible because he is obsessed with that "getting there" thing and can't waste a single extra minute to play the actual game and have some fun. But hey, if you indeed bump into groups doing it for fun and challenge on regular basis, be a good fella and send me their contacts. Because I'm having hard times finding any, actually ;)

    See, the thing is... for some its fun to kill raidbosses in as challenging a way as possible. For others the fun lies in a smooth (and pleasant) kill. Just because your definition of fun is differently, doesnt mean others dont have fun. Just because someone rather prefers smooth kills over hectic-at-the-limit-to-wiping ones, doesnt mean that person sees raiding as a chore and is only there for the loot.

    But even if someone is only there for the loot, and derives all fun out of raiding only by killing bosses... thats not for you to judge tbh.

    Also, imo, you are having this quite mixed up. The norm is running 2 healers, and some players go for 1 druid healer for the extra challenge, or a (often only perceived) slightly swifter kill.