Are the Elder Dragon's evil? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Are the Elder Dragon's evil?

I am trying to piece lore together and figure things out. I have been playing the game since launch off and on but only really started to get into it this year. One thing I've noticed in particular is that while I know the dragons go to sleep and awake. Are they trying to destroy the world? Why? Are they evil? Is it their only purpose?

Follow up question, I know that Glint was trying to take Kralks place, also Aurene is destined to do so. Would they become evil? What is their TRUE purpose.

Thanks in advance.

Comments

  • starhunter.6015starhunter.6015 Member ✭✭✭

    Evil no, it would be like saying that the erupting volcano was evil or the hurricane was evil. The Elder Dragons just don't see any of the races as much more then food or fodder. They eat and then sleep a natural cycle .
    Glint grew to understand humans and the other races, something that the ED's don't . So Glints idea is that a dragon raised understanding the races would have at least compassion and understanding making the new ED's more considerate of the other living beings.

  • no, they are not evil. They lack some requirements for being evil. They are as evil as a vulcanic eruption or a tornado. Forces of nature, catastrophic, but without intent.

    Also, they do not try to destroy the world. They are balancing it. For living beings, especially intelligent beings, that might be a bit traumatic.

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    Dragons on Tyria are magical creatures. Not only that, they have the ability to absorb ambient magic and use this to grow stronger.
    Larger dragons seem to be able to absorb more magic and at some point in the history of Tyria six dragons have become truly gigantic. These elder dragons serve the purpose of regulating the world's ambient magic. Too much of it would destabilize time and space, while too little would cause all spells to fail.

    Unfortunately, the elder dragons don't care about the civilizations of lesser beings. They awake, eat all the magic and go back to sleep.
    No one on Tyria knows how long this cycle has continued, but for the longest time no one has been able to challenge the elder dragons. Civilizations fell and once great races are reduced to savages, like the Jotunn or go extinct, like the Seers.
    As a rule of thumb, the more reliant on magic a civilization was the harder they fell, unless they could leave Tyria and escape the cycle, like the Mursaat, who were exterminated by a group of ascalonian heroes some 250 years ago.

    This system has been threatened in 1325, when the Pact killed Zhaitan. A surge of Magic awakened Mordremoth, who had to be put down Promordus and Jormag had a magical bout that put them back to sleep and Kralkatorrik has been supercharged by a Bloodstone.
    Now we need to fix that system, otherwise magic will threaten to corrupt our savefiles, so to speak.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    Some backstory tried to suggest they were incomprehensible and destructive forces of nature. But they've been given a fair bit of personality over time, and even from the beginning, they have evil personality traits (selfish gluttony, deliberate intent to control or kill others) or produce evil results -- physical and personality changes in their minions that are always called "corruption", never "transformation". Their minions, if they have any remnant of their old personality, have the parts that would be considered "evil", such as cruelty, hatred, and bloodlust. With Jormag and the Sons of Svanir, it actually seems to offer power in exchange for voluntary corruption, like a sort of demonic pact.

    A volcano erupts or a storm blows because of pressure and natural forces. They don't deliberately choose to aim rocks or winds at people, it just happens. So, yes, the Elder Dragons are evil. That said, they don't destroy the world, so much as they do a lot of damage to the natural world and destroy civilization. I don't think they really have a complicated goal, though, other than "eat magic, get full, go to sleep".

    Metaphorically, Glint's legacy represents the happy middle ground between "nature destroys civilization, producing mass death and endless misery" (dragon cycle) and "civilization triumphs over nature's cruelty, then foolishly destabilizes nature and self-destructs" (killing all the dragons). Basically, civilization finding a way to reach its goals within the constraints imposed by the need for ecological balance.

  • borgs.6103borgs.6103 Member ✭✭✭

    Objectively, no. Subjectively, yes. Do you consider lions and predators in general evil when they hunt and kill prey or attack humans?

    Hi.

  • They have blue-orange morality that is beyond the scope of our own. I think, they are incapable of comprehending what is good and what is evil (correct me on this) unlike the deities that are being revered by the humans of Tyria. Pretty much like the Eldritch Abominations in Lovecraftian literature.

    An unsavory fellow beloved by those of unsavory ilk.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Yes, they are evil, and have always been intended to be sapient beings.
    ...

    Each Elder Dragon is fully sapient, with their own methodology, their own actions, and their own personality which mirrors their domain. Only the undead can "live forever"; plants are a sustenance for all life, even carnivours; coldness freezes the weak, while the strong perseveres through the chill; fire easily destroys just about everything; and Kralkatorrik's crystals share the same resonance, thus becoming like himself.

    Intentional or not, ArenaNet created this curious mirror between persona, goal, and magical domain/corruption.

    Many of the dragons are also characterized in a way that is either in opposition to, or a subversion of, the culture of the race they are closest to geographically.

    Whereas humanity is the "spiritual" race which has the lion's share of ghosts, along with gods and their afterlife domains, Zhaitan offers an endless material existence of flesh and (to some extent) mind, but no "soul" or spark (plus, he squats on their most holy land and desecrates their gods' temples).

    Like the Sylvari, Mordremoth was the last of the Dragons to awaken, but he got very busy exploring Tyria. Mostly destroying whatever he found. Though, obviously the parallels with Mordremoth and Sylvari have an in-game explanation, as Mordremoth isn't so much a bad version of Sylvari as Sylvari are a better version of Mordrem.

    Jormag and the Jora/Svanir split in the Norn is obvious enough not to get into much detail over.

    Primordus and Kraalkatorik, well, the argument breaks down there. I guess you could argue that the nihilistic destruction Primordus represents is somehow in opposition to the all-encompassing, harmonious concept of the Eternal Alchemy, or that Primordus constructs his minions from rock similar to the way golems are built, but it's pretty thin. And I can't really think of any parallels between the greed and ego of Kraalkatorik and the rigid militarism of the Charr, unless Kraalkatorik actually did get Balthazarized. Well, I guess they do both have a tendency to destroy large chunks of terrain with magic that produces giant crystals.

  • starhunter.6015starhunter.6015 Member ✭✭✭

    Thanks for clearing up about the eat sleep cycle, the lack of magic really does make more sense.

  • @perilisk.1874 said:
    Well, I guess they do both have a tendency to destroy large chunks of terrain with magic that produces giant crystals.

    But can you count that as a connection between charr and Kralkatorrik when the only crystal-related lore of the charr comes from siphoning magic from Kralkatorrik?

    It'd be like relating asura and Primordus because the asura found Primordus, thought he was a statue, and built a city next to him. Or relating humans and Zhaitan for the same thing (minus statue). Similar with norn and Drakkar, though rather than building atop they avoided Drakkar as if the lake was cursed (which isn't that far off...).

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Well, I guess they do both have a tendency to destroy large chunks of terrain with magic that produces giant crystals.

    But can you count that as a connection between charr and Kralkatorrik when the only crystal-related lore of the charr comes from siphoning magic from Kralkatorrik?

    It'd be like relating asura and Primordus because the asura found Primordus, thought he was a statue, and built a city next to him. Or relating humans and Zhaitan for the same thing (minus statue). Similar with norn and Drakkar, though rather than building atop they avoided Drakkar as if the lake was cursed (which isn't that far off...).

    Huh, you learn something new every day. The searing cauldrons were tied to Kraalkatorik's energy?

  • @perilisk.1874 said:
    Huh, you learn something new every day. The searing cauldrons were tied to Kraalkatorik's energy?

    Not sure if it's been 100% confirmed, but it's been suggested to the point that it's more likely than "sylvari are dragon minions" ever seemed. I suppose they could still do a 180, though.

    But with the redesign of the Searing Crystals in GW2 to be purple like the brand, the Searing Effigy in CoF having the same purple flames as branded sometimes do, and the lore surrounding how the Flame Legion shamans got the various Searing Cauldrons (got the original Cauldron of Cataclysm from the titans which was "forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence", the others were enchanted by the shamans and the magic they used is stated to "predate even the titans").

  • just because a volcano can think does not make it evil. Were the germanic gods evil? They eradicated the ice giants (not many of them around today). The ice giants would probably think so, we do not.

    You might think an elder dragon is evil, because it tries to spread its influence, but from the POV of the dragon, he might actually a power of good and the 'victims' just ants under its boots. Do you cry if you step on an ant on your way to the kebab shop? Why should a dragon cry if he steps on some ants/human/charr/asura when he wants to feed? A whale kills tons of krill. Does that make the whale evil? The whale doesn't do any good, does it? Just trying to live, be more powerful than other whales to create more offspring. Evil? Don't think so.

    There is no absolute morality in this case. You might call them evil. They themselves would probably disagree - or agree to some degree or necessary evil.

    The human gods helped to drive the charr from Ascalon. Are the human gods evil? I am pretty sure the charr back than would have thought so.

    The dragons are neither good nor evil. They are necessary to keep the system stable, if they want to or not doesn't matter one bit. They are just a regulatory device in a complex system. They are as much evil as a computer opening a pressure valve to prevent an explosion. Those killed by the escaping steam might think the computer is evil. Or the valve is evil. But they are not. They just fullfill a necessary function to preserve the overall system. The ability to 'think' or being sapient does not matter in that regard.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    The dragons are neither good nor evil. They are necessary to keep the system stable, if they want to or not doesn't matter one bit. They are just a regulatory device in a complex system. They are as much evil as a computer opening a pressure valve to prevent an explosion. Those killed by the escaping steam might think the computer is evil. Or the valve is evil. But they are not. They just fullfill a necessary function to preserve the overall system. The ability to 'think' or being sapient does not matter in that regard.

    Doesn't it? It's one thing for the Order of Shadows to argue that we shouldn't kill Joko until we have a way to replace him. It's another for the Order of Shadows to use that to argue that Joko isn't evil. Whether or not the dragons are evil is a separate question from the consequences of killing them, and very much hinges on their sapience and intent.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Huh, you learn something new every day. The searing cauldrons were tied to Kraalkatorik's energy?

    Not sure if it's been 100% confirmed, but it's been suggested to the point that it's more likely than "sylvari are dragon minions" ever seemed. I suppose they could still do a 180, though.

    But with the redesign of the Searing Crystals in GW2 to be purple like the brand, the Searing Effigy in CoF having the same purple flames as branded sometimes do, and the lore surrounding how the Flame Legion shamans got the various Searing Cauldrons (got the original Cauldron of Cataclysm from the titans which was "forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence", the others were enchanted by the shamans and the magic they used is stated to "predate even the titans").

    But, on the other hand, ecology of the charr also suggests that some of the gods were in Tyria and hostile to the Charr ages before they ever brought humans to Tyria, plus it's claiming that those sleeping entities literally forged the cauldron (which sounds more like the Great Dwarf than an Elder Dragon, or Balthazar if Ecology is actually right about the gods). And it's bizarre for someone during present day Tyria to speak of "magic that predates the Titans" if they have a suspicion that it's actually dragon magic, since they could just say "dragon magic". Not to mention the Branded and Brandstorms are based on Air magic rather than Fire magic, excluding branded versions of things that naturally have fire attacks like Wyverns -- and the Searing ritual in Orr produced plain ol fire, not some dim purple-y quasi-fire.

    Bloodstone magic also predates the Titans, and in GW2 acts as a sort of spreading crystalline phenomenon that absorbs ambient magic and corrupts living things. Maybe bloodstones are made from kraalkatorik's blood (I bet Balthazar feels a bit silly going after scions now), or maybe it's just Arenanet sometimes recycles motifs.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    just because a volcano can think does not make it evil. Were the germanic gods evil? They eradicated the ice giants (not many of them around today). The ice giants would probably think so, we do not.

    In your example, the ice giants were, in large, an evil race. In many depictions at least.

    But you're right, just because a volcano can think doesn't make it evil. And the same goes for the Elder Dragons. It is the fact that they intentionally target others with malicious acts, fully aware of the consequences of their actions, that makes them evil.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    You might think an elder dragon is evil, because it tries to spread its influence, but from the POV of the dragon, he might actually a power of good and the 'victims' just ants under its boots. Do you cry if you step on an ant on your way to the kebab shop? Why should a dragon cry if he steps on some ants/human/charr/asura when he wants to feed? A whale kills tons of krill. Does that make the whale evil? The whale doesn't do any good, does it? Just trying to live, be more powerful than other whales to create more offspring. Evil? Don't think so.

    There is a difference between killing for survival, like that whale; killing out of ignorance, like most folks stepping on ants; and killing out of malice.

    The Elder Dragons, as proven by Kralkatorrik in Edge of Destiny, Jormag in Frostgorge Sound events, dialogue, and hero challenges, and by Mordremoth in Heart of Thorns, do not treat mortals as mere ants they happen to unsuspectedly step on. Nor do they need to corrupt entire civilizations to feed like a whale eating krill.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    The human gods helped to drive the charr from Ascalon. Are the human gods evil? I am pretty sure the charr back than would have thought so.

    The charr are also conquerers. Though I'd argue that humans were also conquerers at the time, and neither can be defined as good, but both with hints of black in their gray.

    But your argument would be proclaiming groups like the German kitten to "not be evil". Sure, they didn't view themselves as evil, per se, but that doesn't mean they're not so.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    The dragons are neither good nor evil. They are necessary to keep the system stable, if they want to or not doesn't matter one bit. They are just a regulatory device in a complex system. They are as much evil as a computer opening a pressure valve to prevent an explosion. Those killed by the escaping steam might think the computer is evil. Or the valve is evil. But they are not. They just fullfill a necessary function to preserve the overall system. The ability to 'think' or being sapient does not matter in that regard.

    False. The positions they hold are necessary, but the individuals, and their actions of corrupting individuals and destroying civilizations, are not necessary.

    The Pale Tree and Glint are two prime examples of the Elder Dragons' influence that isn't evil. They are just as sapient as the Elder Dragons, and though not as powerful, they are still holders of the same magic and capabilities as the Elder Dragons, just as any other dragon minion is. Yet neither one corrupts nor destroys their neighbors.

    And I would argue your computer example is a false equivalent. The computer is acting to prevent an explosion that, in such a situation, would likely cause far, far more harm and deaths than the few maimed and killed by the escaping steam. Most likely, the explosion would kill those harmed by the steam anyways. However, the Elder Dragons, while they may be unintentionally saving Tyria, have no interest in saving the world or its inhabitants. They are killing indiscriminately for their own selfish and often destructive desires.

    That is what makes the Elder Dragons evil. Maliciously harming others for the sake of the self.

    Your computer is not acting out of malice, but calculations of fulfilling "the good of the many over the needs of the few", and it is not acting for itself but for others.

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    But, on the other hand, ecology of the charr also suggests that some of the gods were in Tyria and hostile to the Charr ages before they ever brought humans to Tyria, plus it's claiming that those sleeping entities literally forged the cauldron (which sounds more like the Great Dwarf than an Elder Dragon, or Balthazar if Ecology is actually right about the gods).

    The Ecology of the Charr only states that there are legends about Melandru creating the world. Not much about them being around before humans (and besides, there were 300 years or so between humans being on the world and humans spreading through continental Tyria, so any "gods were around before charr interactions with humans" could be from that time period).

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    And it's bizarre for someone during present day Tyria to speak of "magic that predates the Titans" if they have a suspicion that it's actually dragon magic, since they could just say "dragon magic".

    It's painted as the Priory charr not really knowing the origin of the Searing crystals.

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Not to mention the Branded and Brandstorms are based on Air magic rather than Fire magic, excluding branded versions of things that naturally have fire attacks like Wyverns -- and the Searing ritual in Orr produced plain ol fire, not some dim purple-y quasi-fire.

    There's actually quite a number of fire involved with the Branded, Dragonbrand, Kralkatorrik, etc. For example, in the novel Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik created the Dragonbrand by breathing a golden gale of fire. When we see crystals falling from the sky in the Dragonbrand (and in Istan), such as when launched by the Shatterer in Blazeridge Steppes, they're surrounded by fire. On top of that, Glint's Zephyrite skills deal with the wind, lightning, and sun.

    Furthermore, there was lightning during the Searing - more so than fire, really, which just encircled the crystals.

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Bloodstone magic also predates the Titans, and in GW2 acts as a sort of spreading crystalline phenomenon that absorbs ambient magic and corrupts living things. Maybe bloodstones are made from kraalkatorik's blood (I bet Balthazar feels a bit silly going after scions now), or maybe it's just Arenanet sometimes recycles motifs.

    I wouldn't be so sure. The titans are repeatedly stated to be as old as the Forgotten in Nightfall, and in GW1, the Ancient Seer does say that the titans did not change "over the eons", suggesting that the titans were present in some capacity before the Seers' fall to the mursaat, which would place them as predating the Bloodstone - both origin stories of it, the false one and the true one.

    As for the Bloodstones coming from Kralkatorrik - unlikely. In "A Study in Gold" tablets, it is stated that the seers used "divine resources" to make the Bloodstone. Divine resources have, time and time again, shown to be counteractive to the Elder Dragons. It would also seem weird to house magic in dragon corruption, when the goal was to keep it away from such...

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I wouldn't be so sure. The titans are repeatedly stated to be as old as the Forgotten in Nightfall, and in GW1, the Ancient Seer does say that the titans did not change "over the eons", suggesting that the titans were present in some capacity before the Seers' fall to the mursaat, which would place them as predating the Bloodstone - both origin stories of it, the false one and the true one.

    The relationship between forgotten, titans, gods, and humans is all pretty murky. It all seems to come down to souls, and it's souls that seem the most resistant to dragon corruption. I'm starting to wonder if the forgotten found human souls (from Elsewhere) in the mists, and somehow discovered the energy they contained was a powerful weapon against draconic corruption. If they used them to develop Exalted and ascension rituals, then the gods could just be created as an advanced evolution of that science, with the purified dragon minions being an even later development, beings of both material and spiritual magic. The fact that the forgotten needed humans suggest that they themselves lack this spark (though humans ghostify far more than other races, regardless).

    It also suggests the gods may have initially brought humans to Tyria at the direction of the forgotten -- not for the glory of humanity or to save them from some calamity, but to ensure that Tyria and the mists surrounding Tyria were filled with an abundance of human souls to be used in the inevitable war against the dragons, or candidates to become exalted, or to people to empower the gods with their prayers, or something along those lines. Titans, like Forged, would just be a perversion of the same magic/science that created the exalted, as would bloodstones, soul batteries, and the eye of janthir. It's an ugly theory, but would explain some things.

    As for the Bloodstones coming from Kralkatorrik - unlikely. In "A Study in Gold" tablets, it is stated that the seers used "divine resources" to make the Bloodstone. Divine resources have, time and time again, shown to be counteractive to the Elder Dragons. It would also seem weird to house magic in dragon corruption, when the goal was to keep it away from such...

    Didn't mean it as a serious suggestion (because it really would make the PoF plot ridiculous), just showing that you can have some resemblance to dragon magic without it necessarily being dragon magic.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭

    The elder dragons are tied to the human gods in my opinion, as the humans gods are themselves tied to the natural cycle. The dragons represent the untamed raw Energy of the world, they each represent a different aspect or core principle of existence :

    -Zhaitan is death and stillness, time is slowed in his presence and his minions are "preserved" more than any other dragons in the sense that we deal with particularly ancient monsters still able to speak and remember their lives. His human god penchant is currently Grenth, and used to be Dhuum.
    -Mordremoth, his polar opposite is life, and evolution, constantly expanding and growing, with his minions mutating more than any other dragon minions. His human god penchant is Melandru, whom while she did not have a particular emphasis on the mind, is still represented as having a particularly strong control over nature.
    -Jormag is order, his preference for domination seems to only extend to humanoids, particularly the Norn, mirroring Dwayna's favor of Humans, as the goddess who brought them forward.
    -Primordus represent well... primal influences for lack of better word, as Jormag opposite, he seems to benefit from Chaos, as his destroyers seems to Simply run rampant and fulfill their destructive purpose. His human god reflection is Balthazar, whose sphere is war, and at his worse, carnage. His attack on Elona is only more methodical, but the destruction is very much the same.
    -Kralkatorik is a bit more complex, Konig above posted that he represent Greed, I'd tend to agree, but more specifically say his emphasis is on Envy. He doesn't seem to have a particularly destructive mindset, it just so happen that he is a living wasteland, and whatever grounds he move toward is irremediably corrupted. His "brand" (ha) of corruption Is rather energetic and flamboyant, but is not wild. He seems to be mirrored most by Lyssa, who is as resplendant, and yet just as vain as the dragon (The fact that her artifact is a mirror is probably not a random occurrence).
    -Then we have the Deep Sea Dragon, like his name implies hiding deeper in the sea, whom we know almost Nothing about. And strangely enough, while it does not exactly fit Kormir, it certainly fits her predecessor Abbadon, the god of Secrets.

    Kormir herself, as well as Grenth both are good example of how Gods, while extremely potent are not exactly Omnipotent. They can be replaced, in the sense that their sphere of influence and dominion can pass onto another, much like how when an Elder Dragon is slain, their Energy can be claimed by a substitute. From my understanding, Dragons represent the chaotic and wild Energy of the world, and Gods represent those same energies, but tamed (as dragons are asleep). When the dragons rise, the gods disappear, or are replaced by gods more aligned with Dragon mindsets. Kormir was forced to abandon her Library, but surprise, Abbadon minions started to take it over. Similarly Grenth influence waned, and Dhuum started to reappear and stir the Underworld. It's Worth noting that Balthazaar was in chains in the Mist while Primordus was waking up, and that he was rather weak until Primordus was forcibly put to sleep. When he was put to sleep, Balthazar was free to rampage Elona. It's currently unknown what effect the assimilation of Balthazar's magic by Aurene and Kralkatorik will have on Primordus, but I suspect he'll rise again soon.

    To make a long explanation shorter, the dragons are part of a dichotomy of Energy Balance. While they sleep, the gods rule, and magic is contained. While they wake, the gods are forced out, and magic goes rampant. The destruction of the world as seen in Omadd's machine is metaphorical in the sense that an unbalanced world would be torn apart by magic phenomenons (as it currently is, by Ley Line anomalies, but on a much larger and more destructive scale). The Energy they contain, and their sphere of influence is permanent. Thus Killing the Dragon of Death, or the God of Death does not disrupt Deadly energies, they're simply transfered to a suitable host that can contain them. The balance is essentially trying to preserve itself by staying inside the circuit. What changes is the number of nodes that constitute said circuit.

  • @Naxos.2503 said:
    The elder dragons are tied to the human gods in my opinion, as the humans gods are themselves tied to the natural cycle. The dragons represent the untamed raw Energy of the world, they each represent a different aspect or core principle of existence :

    People have tried to do this for so long, with it always pattering out before you can get halfway, that ArenaNet eventually put it and its incapability of making a complete connection between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons into the game. And last year, we got a direct, undeniable, debunk of that theory:

    @Jessica Price.1649 said:
    Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601

    Sorry, but that explanation has been thoroughly and fully denied.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    The relationship between forgotten, titans, gods, and humans is all pretty murky. It all seems to come down to souls, and it's souls that seem the most resistant to dragon corruption. I'm starting to wonder if the forgotten found human souls (from Elsewhere) in the mists, and somehow discovered the energy they contained was a powerful weapon against draconic corruption. If they used them to develop Exalted and ascension rituals, then the gods could just be created as an advanced evolution of that science, with the purified dragon minions being an even later development, beings of both material and spiritual magic. The fact that the forgotten needed humans suggest that they themselves lack this spark (though humans ghostify far more than other races, regardless).

    It also suggests the gods may have initially brought humans to Tyria at the direction of the forgotten -- not for the glory of humanity or to save them from some calamity, but to ensure that Tyria and the mists surrounding Tyria were filled with an abundance of human souls to be used in the inevitable war against the dragons, or candidates to become exalted, or to people to empower the gods with their prayers, or something along those lines. Titans, like Forged, would just be a perversion of the same magic/science that created the exalted, as would bloodstones, soul batteries, and the eye of janthir. It's an ugly theory, but would explain some things.

    Neither the Forgotten nor the Six Gods are native to Tyria - this is 100% confirmed and not murky at all. And everything we know suggests that they came from the same world that humanity did. The titans' origins aren't very murky either, as they're formed from tormented souls (with The Fury knowing a ritual to make them efficiently); Gorseval is likely a "naturally made" titan, all things considered.

    I would disagree that souls are most resistant to dragon corruption, for two reasons. Firstly, Zhaitan trapped souls in his most powerful risen; Jormag supposedly does the same, and (secondly) I recall reading that Jormag corrupts the soul. Given that Jormag is capable of consuming the Spirits of the Wild like he did Owl and planned to for Minotaur, it wouldn't be surprising.

    Besides that, why would a human soul be any different from, say, a charr soul, or a norn soul, or a kodan soul, or a mursaat or seer or dwarf soul? By all indication, there is no difference between a human soul and souls of other races. Even in the Domain of the Lost, we see no difference.

    On top of that, the Gods' magic has nothing to do with souls. Yet we see Divine Fire fear mordrem away in Season 2, and kill the supposedly unkillable Shadow of the Dragon; we see Kormir's protection prevent branding in Season 4; we see Balthazar, a mere former god, wade through an army of destroyers and stand in front of an Elder Dragon without any hindrance or his magic being consumed.

    And the Bloodstones weren't made by Forgotten or the Six, but by the Seers, who had no (known) dealing with the Six or humanity.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    Good or evil cannot exist independently. Something is good in relation with other thing. The same for evil. Pure good or pure evil are the attributes of gods (true gods). Unfortunately what the tyrians call "gods" are far from this.

    That means (in my opinion) that the dragons are not good nor evil. They are. The actions of the dragons are good for them. Being sentient intelligent beings, I cannot think they act against their own. On the other hand the actions of the dragons are evil for the other magic users. This making them to call the dragons as evil. I don't think the dragons are evil for birds / wild animals / low level life forms. They gather the magic. And the beings using magic suddenly started to call them evil.

    Let's see: The dragons are native from Tyria (some scholars think that even from the beginning of Tyria). The way they act is unchanged for eons. No matter what their own motivations are, this was the way the life (and the Tyria) evolved. Some races appeared and perished. Some races found shelter into the mist (the Mursaat). Some races still exists but regressed to the primitive state. No matter what happened, this was the way of Tyria from the very beginning.

    But now the humans arrived (intruders/foreigners from Tyria). And because the dragon actions are not on their liking, the dragons have now the label of evil. And the humans (as part of the Pact) tries now to change the way of the world. They are aware now that this way of action will eventually destroy Tyria. And still they consider themselves good and still the dragons are evil. WHAT?

    As we know (or as the ANet lore writers stated) the "gods" are not native from Tyria. They are also invaders / foreign insertion.
    If the statement is true, then no relation exists between the influence spheres of the dragons and the domains of the gods. Any resemblance is purely a result of the hazard.

    To summarize:

    • We have now a bunch of beings named gods who have no valid attribute for being gods (They are only powerful. But they also are mortal, unwise, cowards). And still ANet insists that this is a valid image of a god. And the "gods" (and theirs children - the humans) are considered good.
    • On the other hand we have the Elder Dragons. Ancient beings, existing from the very beginning of Tyria, true forces of nature, insanely powerful, keeping the Tyria in existence. They are called evil.
  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    Good is what favors your side and victory on your terms. Evil is whatever opposes you. You see yourself as superior, and your goals justify themselves in the light of your own ego. If others want to call that evil from their viewpoint, then so be it.

    Real villains of history often had some awareness of how others perceived their "evil" and took care to manage that perception to their advantage.

    To give an example from the game, of Mad King Thorn actually isn't "mad" at all. He is certainly narcissistic, sociopathic, and psychotic. But he isn't mentally disconnected from reality; he knows exactly what he did and is doing and how it's perceived by others, and he revels in it. Others call him mad and evil, and he's happy to embrace those titles and use the fear inherent in them as a tool of power. In probable truth, he and Joko didn't get along simply because they were so much alike. But Joko was more politically astute in how he manipulated "history" and Elonian culture to make his subjects think he was "good", while Thorn got torches and pitchforks when his subjects finally got fed up. Thinking in terms of historic parallels, Thorn was Caligula; Joko was Stalin.

    Relating that to the Elder Dragons, they have goals which are actively inimical to pretty much all other life on Tyria. To their targets and victims, they are evil. But to them as figurative forces of nature, their goals as justified simply by their own existence. They would probably call us evil for standing in their way, if they cared about such petty moral perceptions at all. Which to our perception, that impersonal amorality is possibly the greatest evil of all; to do what you do for its own sake, and simply not care. To steal a line from Jarvis, some beings just want to watch the world burn...

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭

    Regarding the human gods, there is much still left unanswered in the lore, but it's become pretty obvious since the content reveals of PoF that #1 the human gods aren't all they're cracked up to be, and #2 there are still many questions left unanswered.

    • Balthazar had a half-brother, Menzies. Who were their parents? Orrian scrolls mention Balthazar having a father without naming him. Were they gods all along, or mortals who grew to godhood in some manner? Are all the gods like that?
    • Several, if not all of the gods, had predecessors in their positions, and in all known cases those successions came about by defeat and assumption of power. Kormir was a mortal became a goddess by defeating Abbadon, who succeeded the semi-mythical "Arachnia" in some manner before coming to Tyria as a god. Grenth was a half-god, son of Dwayna and Malchor, who defeated and succeeded Dhuum. It has been implied that Balthazar took his power from some older pre-Tyrian deity.

    So clearly, there is much more to the gods' history than we know, and much less to their apparent position relative to the Elder Dragons. Though their inability to defeat the Elder Dragons is likely more a matter of circumstance than power. The gods are probably powerful enough to kill the Elder Dragons (after all, we mere mortals killed two) but the Elder Dragons hold the "fail deadly" trump card of being inherently tied to Tyria's magic, so their deaths would destroy Tyria. Like a terrorist holding a grenade; you could shoot him, but then he would drop the grenade. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:
    The elder dragons are tied to the human gods in my opinion, as the humans gods are themselves tied to the natural cycle. The dragons represent the untamed raw Energy of the world, they each represent a different aspect or core principle of existence :

    People have tried to do this for so long, with it always pattering out before you can get halfway, that ArenaNet eventually put it and its incapability of making a complete connection between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons into the game. And last year, we got a direct, undeniable, debunk of that theory:

    @Jessica Price.1649 said:
    Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601

    Sorry, but that explanation has been thoroughly and fully denied.

    While they may be from elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily means they are not tied to the energies themselves though, that was essentially what I pointed out. As was shown in Path of Fire, god and dragon energies can mix, meaning they can tap within the same pool of Energy. They are tied to the world, just as the dragons are, so much so that when Gods influence wane over certain dominions, the place is not destroyed, but Simply "changes hands", much like how the dragons Energy do.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I messed up and lost my post, so I'll keep it brief this time, especially since it's all off topic.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Neither the Forgotten nor the Six Gods are native to Tyria - this is 100% confirmed and not murky at all. And everything we know suggests that they came from the same world that humanity did.

    I think this was retconned away, since forgotten have been on Tyria since the last elder dragon rise 10000 years ago.

    I would disagree that souls are most resistant to dragon corruption, for two reasons. Firstly, Zhaitan trapped souls in his most powerful risen; Jormag supposedly does the same, and (secondly) I recall reading that Jormag corrupts the soul. Given that Jormag is capable of consuming the Spirits of the Wild like he did Owl and planned to for Minotaur, it wouldn't be surprising.

    Trapped is not the same as corrupted, though. They're basically themselves once freed from their prison of flesh. Jormag seems to corrupt souls the old fashioned way (temptation), and we don't know if SotW are the same thing as souls.

    Besides that, why would a human soul be any different from, say, a charr soul, or a norn soul, or a kodan soul, or a mursaat or seer or dwarf soul? By all indication, there is no difference between a human soul and souls of other races. Even in the Domain of the Lost, we see no difference.

    Why wouldn't it be? Norn are strong, Asura are smart, and humans are spiritual. It's their thing. Their racial abilities are prayers. That said, it might not be humans generally that mattered to the forgotten, but only the Chosen, and humans are just more likely to be born Chosen. Humans aren't native to Tyria, which sets them apart from the others you list, and could explain the difference -- be it that they evolved without a dragon cycle, the lifestream can't absorb them well so they go to the Mists, whatever.

    On top of that, the Gods' magic has nothing to do with souls.

    They're served by elevated ghosts like Sunspears and Reapers, or by twisted and enslaved souls like Titans and Forged, they manage realms where souls congregate, they can consume souls like demons, and they're more associated with social concepts of ensouled beings (like beauty or war) rather than natural concepts like shadow or owls or fire. Their magic has much to do with souls.

    And the Bloodstones weren't made by Forgotten or the Six, but by the Seers, who had no (known) dealing with the Six or humanity.

    The forgotten, mursaat, and seers worked together against the dragons (initially, anyway) and seemed to draw from a common pool of knowledge that they developed in different ways, one focused on spirits and the Mists.

    Spectral agony and infusion, enchanted armor and jade constructs (and exalted), the eye of janthir and ascension rituals, soul batteries and bloodstones.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Regarding the human gods, there is much still left unanswered in the lore, but it's become pretty obvious since the content reveals of PoF that #1 the human gods aren't all they're cracked up to be, and #2 there are still many questions left unanswered.

    • Balthazar had a half-brother, Menzies. Who were their parents? Orrian scrolls mention Balthazar having a father without naming him. Were they gods all along, or mortals who grew to godhood in some manner? Are all the gods like that?
    • Several, if not all of the gods, had predecessors in their positions, and in all known cases those successions came about by defeat and assumption of power. Kormir was a mortal became a goddess by defeating Abbadon, who succeeded the semi-mythical "Arachnia" in some manner before coming to Tyria as a god. Grenth was a half-god, son of Dwayna and Malchor, who defeated and succeeded Dhuum. It has been implied that Balthazar took his power from some older pre-Tyrian deity.

    So clearly, there is much more to the gods' history than we know, and much less to their apparent position relative to the Elder Dragons. Though their inability to defeat the Elder Dragons is likely more a matter of circumstance than power. The gods are probably powerful enough to kill the Elder Dragons (after all, we mere mortals killed two) but the Elder Dragons hold the "fail deadly" trump card of being inherently tied to Tyria's magic, so their deaths would destroy Tyria. Like a terrorist holding a grenade; you could shoot him, but then he would drop the grenade. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

    Not quite sure what you mean by "not being all they're cracked up to be", if anything they're confirmed to very much be all that they're cracked up to be. (IE: The use of their powers in combat turning an ocean to desert)

    That said you are correct that in a conflict between the Gods and the Elder Dragons, the Gods would likely win, the only reason they do not fight is because the Gods know that killing the Dragons destroys Tyria and if something goes wrong and one of them dies, Tyria is also destroyed (Abaddon dying was going to destroy Tyria if Kormir did not absorb his energy, and Dragons cannot absorb Divine magic).

    It taking one God dying to destroy the planet compared to it taking three Dragons dying to end up with the same result should tell people all they need to know.

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Naxos.2503 said:
    The elder dragons are tied to the human gods in my opinion, as the humans gods are themselves tied to the natural cycle. The dragons represent the untamed raw Energy of the world, they each represent a different aspect or core principle of existence :

    People have tried to do this for so long, with it always pattering out before you can get halfway, that ArenaNet eventually put it and its incapability of making a complete connection between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons into the game. And last year, we got a direct, undeniable, debunk of that theory:

    @Jessica Price.1649 said:
    Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601

    Sorry, but that explanation has been thoroughly and fully denied.

    While they may be from elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily means they are not tied to the energies themselves though, that was essentially what I pointed out. As was shown in Path of Fire, god and dragon energies can mix, meaning they can tap within the same pool of Energy. They are tied to the world, just as the dragons are, so much so that when Gods influence wane over certain dominions, the place is not destroyed, but Simply "changes hands", much like how the dragons Energy do.

    God and Dragon energies cannot mix, the former appears to repel the latter and cannot be corrupted. If you're thinking about Balthazar being able to absorb Dragon magic, he no longer had any 'God' magic as that was stripped from him by the others.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    God and Dragon energies cannot mix, the former appears to repel the latter and cannot be corrupted. If you're thinking about Balthazar being able to absorb Dragon >magic, he no longer had any 'God' magic as that was stripped from him by the others.

    Didn't he still reignite Rytlock's sword post emprisonement though ? In my book, that means he still had godly powers, just very little of it.
    I think mostly, both gods and dragons draw from the same magic currents, they just cannot draw from it at the same time. I dont think the gods appearing during the dragons slumber, and disappearing when the dragons wake is certainly not a coincidence. What changes is the magic flow switching to different nodes during that point, as the elder dragons absorb the magic of the world.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Originally I would have said no but now i'm not so sure..

    Since Mordremoth the dragons certainly seem like they have a higher level of consciousness and comprehension than just being natural forces such as a Tsunami or Volcano..
    It definitely feels like they destroy and enslave intentionally.
    Glint planned to usurp one of the dragons suggesting that they could be peaceful or that their roles could be handled without destruction if the dragons willed it yet choose not to.

    I think it's safe to say that the Dragons do not see value in the lives of lesser beings and each of them probably think of itself as a god or at the very least thee most dominant being on Tyria.
    With that in mind I would lean more to saying yeah the Dragons are at least in some way evil.. from our perspective at least.

  • Naxos.2503Naxos.2503 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Originally I would have said no but now i'm not so sure..

    Since Mordremoth the dragons certainly seem like they have a higher level of consciousness and comprehension than just being natural forces such as a Tsunami or Volcano..
    It definitely feels like they destroy and enslave intentionally.
    Glint planned to usurp one of the dragons suggesting that they could be peaceful or that their roles could be handled without destruction if the dragons willed it yet choose not to.

    I think it's safe to say that the Dragons do not see value in the lives of lesser beings and each of them probably think of itself as a god or at the very least thee most dominant being on Tyria.
    With that in mind I would lean more to saying yeah the Dragons are at least in some way evil.. from our perspective at least.

    They represent the more chaotic side of the world's Energy, untamed magical power, which they abuse, I think.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @Naxos.2503 said:
    While they may be from elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily means they are not tied to the energies themselves though, that was essentially what I pointed out. As was shown in Path of Fire, god and dragon energies can mix, meaning they can tap within the same pool of Energy. They are tied to the world, just as the dragons are, so much so that when Gods influence wane over certain dominions, the place is not destroyed, but Simply "changes hands", much like how the dragons Energy do.

    Except that, like I said in my first comment, the attempts to compare the Six Gods' domains to the Elder Dragons' domains fall short halfway through.

    1. First off, Grenth as being god of death and ice relates to two Elder Dragons. Yet at the same time, Dhuum has no relation to ice, just death.
    2. Despite your claim, Jormag is not about order and on top of that, Kormir is order, not Dwayna.
    3. Your comparison has Zhaitan, Primordus, Mordremoth, and Jormag being "similarities", while Kralkatirrik is "opposite" of Lyssa. Breaking your convention right off the bat.
    4. There is nothing secretive about the Deep Sea Dragon's domain, ArenaNet just wants to keep it mysterious, and there's nothing at all linking the tentacled dragon who corrupts water with Kormir. With Abaddon, sure, but just like how Grenth has ice even before ascension to godhood, and Dhuum never does, the secondary domains seem interchangable between generations - air for dwayna, earth for Melandru, beauty for Lyssa, fire for Balthazar are all things that appear to be dependent on the personality of the god, and not the god's magic.

    Above all this, the gods were gods when they arrived on Tyria. Their magic is wholly alien to the world, just as the gods themselves are. The closest relation the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons may have, is that the Six Gods might have been The All bearers of their homeworld that got destroyed.

    Furthermore, Path of Fire does not show that god and dragon energies can mix. If you forgot, Balthazar lost all his god magic. A former god may be able to steal magic from the Elder Dragons, but nothing shows that an Elder Dragon can steal magic from a true god. Kralkatorrik and Aurene merely ate the magic Balthazar took from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag.

    In fact, the opposite is frequently shown.

    • Divine Fire in Season 2 fearing mordrem away and killing the supposedly unkillable Shadow of the Dragon.
    • Balthazar, even as a former god, wading through an army of destroyers and walking up to an Elder Dragon, with enough time to create barriers before turning on Taimi's Machine that paralyzed the Elder Dragon, with no harm done to him or his magic.
    • Sun's Refuge being protected from the Branded's invasions from the Rifts while Kormir's protection spell is up.
    • The Djinn using the remnants of Abaddon's magic in the sand to create their defenses against the Dragonbrand and its corruption.

    We see four straight up cases of the Six Gods magic counteracting the Elder Dragon's corruption and minions. We see zero cases of them properly mixing.

    Add in the Exalted's immunity to corruption, and the Forgotten's magic to counteract mental corruption - as the Forgotten have been servants of the Six longer than they've been on Tyria - and we got five cases of this non-Tyrian magic counteracting Tyrian magic.

    The Six Gods have no innate connection to Tyria. It's why they can so easily abandon the place.

    @Naxos.2503 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    God and Dragon energies cannot mix, the former appears to repel the latter and cannot be corrupted. If you're thinking about Balthazar being able to absorb Dragon >magic, he no longer had any 'God' magic as that was stripped from him by the others.

    Didn't he still reignite Rytlock's sword post emprisonement though ? In my book, that means he still had godly powers, just very little of it.
    I think mostly, both gods and dragons draw from the same magic currents, they just cannot draw from it at the same time. I dont think the gods appearing during the dragons slumber, and disappearing when the dragons wake is certainly not a coincidence. What changes is the magic flow switching to different nodes during that point, as the elder dragons absorb the magic of the world.

    He still had power, yes, but he was no longer a god. This is a major plot point of Balthazar's actions throughout Season 3 and Path of Fire. He was stripped of his divinity and his power, left with only a very little strength left, to the point that when Rytlock met him in the Mists, Rytlock thought he was a lost soul.

    But for all we know, his power to reignite Sohothin came from the fact he stole Sohothin's magic since it was right next to him. We do not know how Sohothin's flame was extinguished.

    I really think you need to replay Season 3 and Path of Fire, since that is pretty much THE main reason behind the plot. Balthazar was stripped of his divinity, so he sought to steal magic from the Bloodstones and Elder Dragons so that he could take his revenge against the gods.

    All the same, it's been completely confirmed the Six Gods and Elder Dragons' magic are completely different. The Elder Dragon's magic comes from Tyria. The Six Gods' magic comes from elsewhere. There is no direct or distant relation between the two.

    As for the Six Gods arriving while the dragons slept and leaving when they woke - keep in mind that they left a thousand years before the Elder Dragons woke up. And they did so because of their war with Abaddon. They left the Mists near Tyria when the Elder Dragons woke up because, as Kormir explained in Facing the Truth, there would be no real victory in fighting the Elder Dragons - either the gods lost and the gods' volatile released magic would destroy the world (as it nearly did with Abaddon's death), or the dragons lost and The All's imbalance would destroy the world.

    And we're not even fully certain the Six Gods arrived while the dragons slept. The Forgotten came from The Mists just as the Six Gods did, but we do not know whether the Six were first (as GW1 unreliable narrator lore leads us to believe) or the Forgotten were first (as some Priory unreliable narrators lead us to believe - but Warden Illyra has been wrong before in her Arah path). And even if the Forgotten were first, we do not know with certainty that all or any the Elder Dragons were asleep when the Six arrived.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Neither the Forgotten nor the Six Gods are native to Tyria - this is 100% confirmed and not murky at all. And everything we know suggests that they came from the same world that humanity did.

    I think this was retconned away, since forgotten have been on Tyria since the last elder dragon rise 10000 years ago.

    Not retconned. Forgotten came from the Mists.

    There's also conflicting time periods for the last dragonrise. While there is the whole "Gigatnicus Lupicus were wiped out by them" there's also several mentions - mainly pertaining to the Forgotten and Glint - that states 3,000 years ago. For example:

    Glint: I remember only fragments from the days before the Forgotten performed their ritual on me.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystalline_Memories#In_Glint.27s_Lair

    Which is a nod back to older lore:

    Eir Stegalkin: Ancient, wise, powerful. She had the gift of prophecy and the burden of three thousand years of memories. She warned us about dragons taking over the world. They feast, she said, on all life.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Return_to_Camp_Resolve#After_talking_with_Logan

    Which itself is a nod back to older lore from Edge of Destiny (Chapter 26: Seeking the Sanctum):

    "I am Glint, Keeper of the Flameseeker Prophecies, Protector of the Forgotten, Foe of the Lich Lord, and Downfall of the Titans! Three thousand years ago, I was set here as a guardian of the world. Three hundred years ago, I welcomed heroes such as yourselves, hailing them as the Chosen who would destroy the titans and save the world."

    Which is where the "Glint lied about her identity" that is itself is a nod back to lore from GW1, about Glint and the Forgotten being 3,000 years old.

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    Besides that, why would a human soul be any different from, say, a charr soul, or a norn soul, or a kodan soul, or a mursaat or seer or dwarf soul? By all indication, there is no difference between a human soul and souls of other races. Even in the Domain of the Lost, we see no difference.

    Why wouldn't it be? Norn are strong, Asura are smart, and humans are spiritual. It's their thing. Their racial abilities are prayers. That said, it might not be humans generally that mattered to the forgotten, but only the Chosen, and humans are just more likely to be born Chosen. Humans aren't native to Tyria, which sets them apart from the others you list, and could explain the difference -- be it that they evolved without a dragon cycle, the lifestream can't absorb them well so they go to the Mists, whatever.

    I wouldn't really claim humans are more spiritual than norn. I mean, norn are pretty kitten devout to the Spirits of the Wild. They're just devout in a different way - they don't think that the Spirits of the Wild will actually intervene if prayed to, while humans for a long time did think such of their gods (because the Six did intervene in ye olde days).

    Above that, many humans have been losing faith in their gods. It's one of their GW2 themes compared to GW1, where there's far less devoutness in the race than ever before. So I would disagree completely with the idea that "humans are the spiritual race" idea. Originally, humans were meant to be "the race with history" during the development of GW2. That they would be the ones who have the most access to the accurate history of the world of the five playable races. But then they decided to retcon 70% of GW1's historical lore.

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    On top of that, the Gods' magic has nothing to do with souls.

    They're served by elevated ghosts like Sunspears and Reapers, or by twisted and enslaved souls like Titans and Forged, they manage realms where souls congregate, they can consume souls like demons, and they're more associated with social concepts of ensouled beings (like beauty or war) rather than natural concepts like shadow or owls or fire. Their magic has much to do with souls.

    They are capable of manipulating souls, but their magic does not have a foundation of souls. The elevated ghosts' job is the run the afterlife, you wouldn't have mortals doing that since they, y'know, die off. Titans are not confirmed to be directly related by the Six, but instead it's suggested that Dhuum merely made use of breeding them - no different than Rragar Maneater breeding Fleshreavers and Oozes. Forged were literally modifications of Exalted, which stem from Forgotten magic, not god magic (and even then, we got hints in Season 3 that the Exalted and Enchanted Armor - as well as Jade Constructs and other ancient spells - were likely formed from a coalition of mursaat, Seer, Forgotten, jotun, and dwarven magic, thus the similarities between all these ancient races' spells, like both mursaat and seers floating).

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    And the Bloodstones weren't made by Forgotten or the Six, but by the Seers, who had no (known) dealing with the Six or humanity.

    The forgotten, mursaat, and seers worked together against the dragons (initially, anyway) and seemed to draw from a common pool of knowledge that they developed in different ways, one focused on spirits and the Mists.

    Spectral agony and infusion, enchanted armor and jade constructs (and exalted), the eye of janthir and ascension rituals, soul batteries and bloodstones.

    I don't really see the connection between Enchanted armor, Jade constructs, Eye of Janthir, Ascension (if the latter two were at all involved with the sharing of knowledge) to souls or the Mists. Nor would the mursaat and seer's floating abilities. Plus, the mursaat never shared the spectral agony or their Mists traversal - it's one of the things that made the alliance fall apart - as brought up in Arah.

    And Bloodstones similarly have no connection to souls and Mists, besides the fact that when modified by the mursaat and connected to soul batteries, the Bloodstones were used as a transference device of souls. But this is more due to the mursaat tampering thousands of years later, and not the initial magic involved.

    But even then, none of that has to do with the Six Gods.

  • Edelweiss.4261Edelweiss.4261 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd say the only "evil" dragon would be Mordremoth as it acted quite differently than would a natural phenomena as we were lead to believe elder dragons were. It acted out of arrogance and malice, so I'd say it was evil.

  • Ronin.7381Ronin.7381 Member ✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @starhunter.6015 said:
    Evil no, it would be like saying that the erupting volcano was evil or the hurricane was evil. The Elder Dragons just don't see any of the races as much more then food or fodder. They eat and then sleep a natural cycle .

    Sadly, this isn't the direction they stuck with. Ever since HoT, they've humanized the Elder Dragons and made them fallible. Where as prior to launch of Guild Wars 2, we were told that Elder Dragons were "Forces of Nature." The concept of a beast that cares little for those it comes into contact with because they're too small, always apealed to me. But unfortunately, the novel with Destiny's Edge, had given Kralk a personality - a purpose. With the recent LW Episode, they've done more in this regard - further departing from that original concept. It's a shame really but the story making our player characters the BGDH kind of demands it.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    There is the saying that power corrupts

    As I heard it(0):

    Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    It's a commentary, in origin, on political power and the consequences of statecraft rather than magical power, but applies, by extension, in situations that are "like" politics, many of which are called "something-or-other politics". Notable among them, obviously, is "corporate" or "office" politics. We accuse CEOs and the like of being corrupted by the power that their CEO-ness and/or the success of their companies give them, and a frequently-cited example (rightly or wrongly(1)) is the abandonment of the ideals expressed in "Don't be evil".

    It is, therefore, of marginal relevance to the question of corruption of lesser beings (Risen, Mordrem, etc.) by the Elder Dragons, but very much can be applied to the dragons themselves.

    (0) Wikiquote attributes it to "John Emerich Edward Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton, KCVO DL", more often known just as "Lord Acton". The larger context of the quote is:

    Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it.

    TIL: It's part of a larger critique on the question of papal infallibility, one that includes the assertion that we should hold all people, high or low, to the same moral standards, and especially not excuse evil done by the high-placed merely because they are high-placed.

    (1) That's a topic for another day, another forum, and another case of beer.

    @Biff.5312 said:
    Exercise your whimsy.

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:
    Regarding the human gods, there is much still left unanswered in the lore, but it's become pretty obvious since the content reveals of PoF that #1 the human gods aren't all they're cracked up to be, and #2 there are still many questions left unanswered.

    • Balthazar had a half-brother, Menzies. Who were their parents? Orrian scrolls mention Balthazar having a father without naming him. Were they gods all along, or mortals who grew to godhood in some manner? Are all the gods like that?
    • Several, if not all of the gods, had predecessors in their positions, and in all known cases those successions came about by defeat and assumption of power. Kormir was a mortal became a goddess by defeating Abbadon, who succeeded the semi-mythical "Arachnia" in some manner before coming to Tyria as a god. Grenth was a half-god, son of Dwayna and Malchor, who defeated and succeeded Dhuum. It has been implied that Balthazar took his power from some older pre-Tyrian deity.

    So clearly, there is much more to the gods' history than we know, and much less to their apparent position relative to the Elder Dragons. Though their inability to defeat the Elder Dragons is likely more a matter of circumstance than power. The gods are probably powerful enough to kill the Elder Dragons (after all, we mere mortals killed two) but the Elder Dragons hold the "fail deadly" trump card of being inherently tied to Tyria's magic, so their deaths would destroy Tyria. Like a terrorist holding a grenade; you could shoot him, but then he would drop the grenade. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

    I think the questions on the origins of the gods' homeland is very interesting, especially considering it feels like that would have been the theme of the cancelled _Utopia _campaign for GW1. For those of you unaware, _Utopia_ would have taken place in the Mists themselves, and would have included on an expanded pantheon, like Dwayna's father appearing. While I imagine most of Utopia isn't canon anymore, its very interesting, since at some point ANet did seem to have the Human Gods' homelands in mind in the narrative.

    Makes me wonder if they'll ever return to it, you know?

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    evil is just a matter of perspective

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Yes, they are evil. Not due to what they are (Elder Dragons) but their own individual personalities.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019

    @AzureNightmare.3914 said:

    Makes me wonder if they'll ever return to it, you know?

    My own theory is that the original home of humans and their gods doesn't exist anymore; they migrated to Tyria when their original home was destroyed. Perhaps by the very same kind of vast magical conflicts we are fighting in Tyria now. I also have an idea that the human gods were all originally humans, and the destruction of humanity's original home is at least partly how the human gods became gods in the first place.

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