Balance: What is your TOP priority? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance: What is your TOP priority?

Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

Which of the following, if you could choose ONLY ONE to ‘perfectly’ balance, what would it be?

Balance: What is your TOP priority? 137 votes

Balanced Population over time zone and ‘world’
37% 51 votes
Each class (not spec) has an equal representation in Zergs
20% 28 votes
Balanced for 1 v 1 where each class (not spec) has an equally viable roaming build and skill alone determines a 1 v 1
20% 28 votes
Other
21% 30 votes
<1

Comments

  • TamX.1870TamX.1870 Member ✭✭✭

    I really don't see much issues, if classes are not equal in zergs or roaming. You can make one class to take part to zergs, and another class to go roaming. It does not hurt if you have few choices, thought. It would also not hurt that those classes are different, and that no class can dominate entirely: for example, you would have necro-only WvW (roamers would all be necros, zergs would be full-necro-zergballs etc), or that you would have one class that dominates roaming and the same class is needed in larger amounts in zergs, too. It's in the end a thin line here, of course, but anyways.

    If the battle zone could be balanced so that there is enough action at all scales (solo roaming, small groups, zergs) at majority of hours, that would be pretty good. Expecting of course that there is some class diversity in compositions.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think population alone is the wrong way to think about balancing coverage. Balanced coverage is not just about having exactly the same number of people on each side in every timezone, it's about having the same number of competent players on each side in every timezone. The problem is that there are very very few competent players left playing the game in any timezone anywhere. They tend to want to play with other competent players and not have to carry and who can blame them?

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    The first option is an impossibility - you cannot force players to play at certain times.
    The second option is an inconvenience that will feed toxicity to insane levels - equal representation would mean class limitations and restrictions.
    The third option is a complete fantasy - skill alone can never decide anything in an RPG with classes and dozens of skills because that goes against the principle of an RPG with classes and having dozens of skills.

    So... other? :/

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Necro can roam and does not have kill me first invisible tag on his head.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @Shining One.1635 said:
    I'll never understand this mindset. What's the fun in running over 50 unskilled players with your 50 skilled players? When I played games (admittedly a different genre) competitively at a higher level, we'd spread the talent around so the matchups were more balanced and fun.

    I can't speak for everyone who's been playing this game as long as I have.

    My personal explanation is that I just don't have the time or patience to try to teach someone relatively new or inexperienced or just badly taught by someone else everything I know about the game after years of experience and thousands upon thousands of fights.

    I also happen to think that there are some things about this game that simply cannot be taught, they can only be learned through thousands of hours of trial and error and dedicated reflection and examination outside of the game.

    I'm not personally willing to sacrifice my satisfaction of the game on a daily basis for the possibility that it might make a matchup more balanced. In my view, the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high and too time consuming at this point to be realistically possible.

    If you're asking why the experienced guilds don't transfer all over the place the answer is simple: no one wants to have to try to carry an entire server by themselves. We recently tried it and it sucks let me tell you.

  • @Israel.7056 said:

    @Shining One.1635 said:
    I'll never understand this mindset. What's the fun in running over 50 unskilled players with your 50 skilled players? When I played games (admittedly a different genre) competitively at a higher level, we'd spread the talent around so the matchups were more balanced and fun.

    I can't speak for everyone who's been playing this game as long as I have.

    My personal explanation is that I just don't have the time or patience to try to teach someone relatively new or inexperienced or just badly taught by someone else everything I know about the game after years of experience and thousands upon thousands of fights.

    I also happen to think that there are some things about this game that simply cannot be taught, they can only be learned through thousands of hours of trial and error and dedicated reflection and examination outside of the game.

    I'm not personally willing to sacrifice my satisfaction of the game on a daily basis for the possibility that it might make a matchup more balanced. In my view, the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high and too time consuming at this point to be realistically possible.

    If you're asking why the experienced guilds don't transfer all over the place the answer is simple: no one wants to have to try to carry an entire server by themselves. We recently tried it and it sucks let me tell you.

    And this is why WvW has suffered to what it is now from the beginning. Players who learned fast and "got good" gravitated to each other and developed this very mindset that their time is too precious to spend teaching recruits. Once you recruit and absorb all of the talent you become the dominant force. Its only a matter of time after that point that you conquer everything. What you have won by conquering over 6 years is a stale game mode. And you have only yourselves to blame for it. Enjoy siege-ing down your walls and gates and dpsing down your npcs.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Shining One.1635 said:
    I'll never understand this mindset. What's the fun in running over 50 unskilled players with your 50 skilled players? When I played games (admittedly a different genre) competitively at a higher level, we'd spread the talent around so the matchups were more balanced and fun.

    I can't speak for everyone who's been playing this game as long as I have.

    My personal explanation is that I just don't have the time or patience to try to teach someone relatively new or inexperienced or just badly taught by someone else everything I know about the game after years of experience and thousands upon thousands of fights.

    I also happen to think that there are some things about this game that simply cannot be taught, they can only be learned through thousands of hours of trial and error and dedicated reflection and examination outside of the game.

    I'm not personally willing to sacrifice my satisfaction of the game on a daily basis for the possibility that it might make a matchup more balanced. In my view, the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high and too time consuming at this point to be realistically possible.

    If you're asking why the experienced guilds don't transfer all over the place the answer is simple: no one wants to have to try to carry an entire server by themselves. We recently tried it and it sucks let me tell you.

    And this is why WvW has suffered to what it is now from the beginning. Players who learned fast and "got good" gravitated to each other and developed this very mindset that their time is too precious to spend teaching recruits. Once you recruit and absorb all of the talent you become the dominant force. Its only a matter of time after that point that you conquer everything. What you have won by conquering over 6 years is a stale game mode. And you have only yourselves to blame for it. Enjoy siege-ing down your walls and gates and dpsing down your npcs.

    I don't think he likes to siege, and kills npcs.

    D:

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  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Shining One.1635 said:
    I'll never understand this mindset. What's the fun in running over 50 unskilled players with your 50 skilled players? When I played games (admittedly a different genre) competitively at a higher level, we'd spread the talent around so the matchups were more balanced and fun.

    I can't speak for everyone who's been playing this game as long as I have.

    My personal explanation is that I just don't have the time or patience to try to teach someone relatively new or inexperienced or just badly taught by someone else everything I know about the game after years of experience and thousands upon thousands of fights.

    I also happen to think that there are some things about this game that simply cannot be taught, they can only be learned through thousands of hours of trial and error and dedicated reflection and examination outside of the game.

    I'm not personally willing to sacrifice my satisfaction of the game on a daily basis for the possibility that it might make a matchup more balanced. In my view, the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high and too time consuming at this point to be realistically possible.

    If you're asking why the experienced guilds don't transfer all over the place the answer is simple: no one wants to have to try to carry an entire server by themselves. We recently tried it and it sucks let me tell you.

    And this is why WvW has suffered to what it is now from the beginning. Players who learned fast and "got good" gravitated to each other and developed this very mindset that their time is too precious to spend teaching recruits. Once you recruit and absorb all of the talent you become the dominant force. Its only a matter of time after that point that you conquer everything. What you have won by conquering over 6 years is a stale game mode. And you have only yourselves to blame for it. Enjoy siege-ing down your walls and gates and dpsing down your npcs.

    Well first of all my time is too precious to spend teaching recruits but that doesn't mean everyone at my level of experience or greater feels that way. Some people really enjoy teaching novices.

    Secondly I got to where I am by showing up and playing for years and I made friends along the way. It wasn't some concerted 6 year effort to consolidate talent it has been me showing up consistently to play with my friends. I could not know along the way who was going to be around at the six year mark and who wouldn't be. I just played with people I liked just like everyone else.

    Thirdly I do not find gw2 to be stale. If I did I wouldn't be playing the game anymore. As long as there are people to fight and I'm still having fun playing I'll keep showing up to play.

  • @Israel.7056 said:
    I think population alone is the wrong way to think about balancing coverage. Balanced coverage is not just about having exactly the same number of people on each side in every timezone, it's about having the same number of competent players on each side in every timezone. The problem is that there are very very few competent players left playing the game in any timezone anywhere. They tend to want to play with other competent players and not have to carry and who can blame them?

    Do you think the incompetent players enjoy being steamrolled? Do you think they will keep returning to WvW to let you steamroll over them? Surely you can see where this has and continues to head towards. You say "They want to play with other competent players and not have to carry" which means to me that they share your feeling that they don't want to use their precious time to help them. Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Shining One.1635 said:
    I'll never understand this mindset. What's the fun in running over 50 unskilled players with your 50 skilled players? When I played games (admittedly a different genre) competitively at a higher level, we'd spread the talent around so the matchups were more balanced and fun.

    I can't speak for everyone who's been playing this game as long as I have.

    My personal explanation is that I just don't have the time or patience to try to teach someone relatively new or inexperienced or just badly taught by someone else everything I know about the game after years of experience and thousands upon thousands of fights.

    I also happen to think that there are some things about this game that simply cannot be taught, they can only be learned through thousands of hours of trial and error and dedicated reflection and examination outside of the game.

    I'm not personally willing to sacrifice my satisfaction of the game on a daily basis for the possibility that it might make a matchup more balanced. In my view, the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high and too time consuming at this point to be realistically possible.

    If you're asking why the experienced guilds don't transfer all over the place the answer is simple: no one wants to have to try to carry an entire server by themselves. We recently tried it and it sucks let me tell you.

    And this is why WvW has suffered to what it is now from the beginning. Players who learned fast and "got good" gravitated to each other and developed this very mindset that their time is too precious to spend teaching recruits. Once you recruit and absorb all of the talent you become the dominant force. Its only a matter of time after that point that you conquer everything. What you have won by conquering over 6 years is a stale game mode. And you have only yourselves to blame for it. Enjoy siege-ing down your walls and gates and dpsing down your npcs.

    Just that most people don't want to learn, as you know it's kinda hard and it takes 3+ months to be palatable for non-casual guilds and 6+ months for top ones. I've only had a few people actually go though whole process and therefor succeed. That goes for 1 year casuals of WvWers and totally new WvWers, as for the ones familiar with usual pug WvW need some brain reprogramming to remove bad habits.

    As for top priority. Even if only 1 class is played, but the gameplay is fun than i'll take it. Now it simply isn't. Since PoF release, we've been playing oneshot meta and bad pugs were playing pirateship as always.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    My main priority is to create engaging gameplay. Not just "hammer up" or "hammer down" a skill. Regardless of nerfs or buffs, the tendency is to make all skills much more dull. The worst part is people don't actually change their gameplay.

    Create a game that people want to actually play. All else is meaningless without that.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    Do you think the incompetent players enjoy being steamrolled?

    Do you think I enjoy trying to carry incompetent players? Why does their enjoyment of the game matter more than mine?

    Do you think they will keep returning to WvW to let you steamroll over them?

    I mean...yeah because they can blob up and steamroll they can play defensive and build siege. They have options.

    Surely you can see where this has and continues to head towards.

    Everything that has a beginning has an end, Neo.

    Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

    Sad that it's so simple and yet so many people are still so bad at it somehow?

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @Israel.7056 said:

    Sad that it's so simple and yet so many people are still so bad at it somehow?

    Extremely. But expected. The game doesn't really force people to get better especially in wvw since one can get carried. What's worse is the high variance in WvW which really doesn't give people proper feedback. Like people will win 30 vs 15 and think whatever they're running is awesome.

    It only gets worse when the game changes. People will refuse to change their ways, and just chalk it up to something. This is a game where if someone wants to learn, they can easily reach a level of competency that is higher than that of "veterans" that may have played for years but still manage to 0-push (die before the fight even starts) every single time due to this complacency.

    I mean, it's not specific to Gw2, but I've just noticed it more here. Even with myself; I'm just so insanely horrible outside of WvW (not that I'm good in it either) that I'm just wondering "wow, even noobs have an excuse; how does this guy fail jumps when it's not even a jumping puzzle!?"

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    WvW just fits really oddly into the game gw2 has become, by that I mean it's pve.
    You can play the majority of this game by spamming 1, not knowing a thing about build synergy (or selecting traits) or even being aware of your hero panel. They try pvp, they're automatically matched with others of similar competence, in general the game doesn't even let on that there's things they've missed.. Until they come to WvW where they're hit with every inadequacy like a blast from a fire hose.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

    If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn?

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  • @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

    If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn?

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing.

    ...And somebody told us we sucked too.
    Welcome to the internet!

    Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

    A LOT of people are too lazy to learn. Sometimes they even have the gall to complain to other customers, like they were NPC's here for their convenience, without doing so much as a Google search. As you say the games' indeed long in the tooth, the media is there free for perusal.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

    If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn?

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

    I spent a lot of time teaching in EOTM back in the day because I found it a good way to get people interested in real WvW. I enjoyed answering questions, trying to figure out how to deal with guilds like [HK], [SF], [ND], etc. and fighting against the odds when we were outnumbered with 10 people against 100. What was most rewarding though was when players I recognized as previously being pugs started to try commanding themselves, I started seeing them in real WvW or when it was visibly noticable that my squad was starting to fall in line with my teachings. I'm not saying I was the sole reason some of these people improved, but I am saying it felt good when I had an impact, especially all the times I got whispers after a match from people thanking me for the excitement.

    That's just the positive side of it though. I was driven away from doing this because far more often the pugs were too lazy to try or listen and I was starting to lose my patients more often. No matter how many times or ways I might explain something to some people, they would continue to ignore it. And then you have the kinds of players that are clearly still learning yet think they're better than everyone else and constantly bringing down group morale by harassing commanders. Or best of all, the amount of players I might lose if there was any sign of a challenge. Sure you could argue, "well it's EOTM, they're PvE'ers" but it really isn't much different than real WvW. You get maybe 2 or 3 more tries in real WvW but if you lose or have to play defensive there's a good chance a lot of players are going to kitten off to do their own thing.

    I would love to continue commanding and teaching but because of the overwhelming amount of players that have the learning capacity of a toaster oven, it just doesn't feel worth it. And honestly, people berate commanders a whole lot more than commanders berate pugs in my experience. There are always a handful of commanders on every server that like to blame their pugs for everything but the pugs are the same every where. If you're not a superstar or being supported by your guild, prepare to be screamed at for every mistake.

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  • TokenG.7863TokenG.7863 Member ✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing.

    ...And somebody told us we sucked too.
    Welcome to the internet!

    Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

    A LOT of people are too lazy to learn. Sometimes they even have the gall to complain to other customers, like they were NPC's here for their convenience, without doing so much as a Google search. As you say the games' indeed long in the tooth, the media is there free for perusal.

    So what's the solution? Is there one at this point. Just let it die ? How does someone balance a game around a players's skill level if there isn't even a metric there for that. Or just ball as many veterans as you can into an alliance and just go out and kick the teeth out of everything that isn't even a challenge. I'm genuinely interested in how thats going to turn out. Maybe they could put wvw on a queue system like pvp and eotm is and build teams on the fly for several hour time periods. Perhaps when alliances come out, they can claim time slots/days to queue their guilds for rally times.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @LetoII.3782 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing.

    ...And somebody told us we sucked too.
    Welcome to the internet!

    Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

    A LOT of people are too lazy to learn. Sometimes they even have the gall to complain to other customers, like they were NPC's here for their convenience, without doing so much as a Google search. As you say the games' indeed long in the tooth, the media is there free for perusal.

    So what's the solution? Is there one at this point. Just let it die ? How does someone balance a game around a players's skill level if there isn't even a metric there for that. Or just ball as many veterans as you can into an alliance and just go out and kick the teeth out of everything that isn't even a challenge. I'm genuinely interested in how thats going to turn out.

    I don't ball as many veterans as possible into one group as I can <,< Most of us don't, there's only 2 +30 veteran guilds left on NA. In fact, just last week we adopted a new player who'd watched a few minutes of youtube.. That's how low standards are.. Just being self reliant enough to ask his computer a question that's been answered a million times by people, already, was enough to stand out. And dominating in WvW Zerg fights is about a very small number of people in that Zerg actually doing what they're supposed to

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019

    Realized I should vote.
    Most of the game is invested in minimal effort. As the least effort team-wise is a team of one, most of WvW is played as duel-within-a-group. Yes, zergs are dominant but they're also becoming rare as popular commanders fade out and aren't replaced. So as far as I see it, the future of WvW is going to be large masses of pugs aimlessly wandering around.. And with that will come a strong presence of whatever the best 1v1 spec is.

    People that know me like the op might think I'd prioritize time zones, but I don't feel this is a balance issue so much as a design flaw... There's 20 million Australians, there's 500 million people in the western hemisphere. Of course the Aussies can't fill a system designed for the population of the US and Brazil, and they were given no incentive to try. Such being the case, there was no time zone balance to begin with, and any attempt by Anet to offer such feature will be new ground.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    The basis of skilled PvP (and indeed good PvP) is competition, WvW fails miserably at that, which is why most of what few actual competent players there were left long ago when it became abundantly clear that WvW was not meaningfully supported, let alone things like GvG.

    Only PvE bads pat themselves on the back for beating players who have way less experience or have different priorities like playing what they find fun (especially in a game where playing whatever is the current cheese makes up such a large proportion of "skill") or even more tragic getting excited about beating some guy who it turns out is 70.

    There is nothing more amusing in GW2 than the irony of being on TS/Discord (or watching a stream) where some guy is calling the group or individual they just beat terrible, oblivious to the reality that in 2018 more than ever WvW is trash tier PvP and if they were even vaguely decent they would be off playing a skilled, competitive PvP game, not pseudo PvP for PvE players.

    As for the OP and balance, that is simply more delusion, WvW has never been remotely balanced for the simple reason it is not a priority for Anet, nor considered a serious game mode.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    There is nothing more amusing in GW2 than the irony of being on TS/Discord (or watching a stream) where some guy is calling the group or individual they just beat terrible, oblivious to the reality that in 2018 more than ever WvW is trash tier PvP and if they were even vaguely decent they would be off playing a skilled, competitive PvP game, not pseudo PvP for PvE players.

    This is about as good as it gets for an MMORPG.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

    If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn?

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

    I don't think what is lacking are people willing to teach... Much on contrary: I think what is lacking are people willing to learn.

    Also, where you think us, veterans, learned how to play if there was no one to teach back then? Hell, in 2013 I was running around in WvW in a Clerics/Magi shout guardian in a dead server down in T8 with no one to teach me how to build properly... Ironically, shout guardian ended up becoming the backbone of WvW for many years. Was I a genius for thinking about how to make a decent build to help my team? I don't think so. I just decided to actually read what my skills/traits do and test them in the field. Most of those new people today don't seen to be able to do that.

    "Oh the game is old. No one got time for that." Well, then we can say don't have time to teach these people. The fact that the game is old make it even easier for someone with half brain do a quick research in the internet and find a decent build. Didn't like it? Modify it to fit your playstyle. They have all the cards, they just don't want to play it.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Sylosi.6503 said:
    There is nothing more amusing in GW2 than the irony of being on TS/Discord (or watching a stream) where some guy is calling the group or individual they just beat terrible, oblivious to the reality that in 2018 more than ever WvW is trash tier PvP and if they were even vaguely decent they would be off playing a skilled, competitive PvP game, not pseudo PvP for PvE players.

    This is about as good as it gets for an MMORPG.

    Yeah people keep saying that, but nobody will share which game it is.
    I thought it was kinda funny seeing Mithril Warhammers active in the Crowfall alpha. Those guys are so set on the perfect mmo that they haven't actually played one in a decade. Seems kinda like saving yourself for the perfect girl into your 40's

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

    If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn?

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

    I don't think what is lacking are people willing to teach... Much on contrary: I think what is lacking are people willing to learn.

    Also, where you think us, veterans, learned how to play if there was no one to teach back then? Hell, in 2013 I was running around in WvW in a Clerics/Magi shout guardian in a dead server down in T8 with no one to teach me how to build properly... Ironically, shout guardian ended up becoming the backbone of WvW for many years. Was I a genius for thinking about how to make a decent build to help my team? I don't think so. I just decided to actually read what my skills/traits do and test them in the field. Most of those new people today don't seen to be able to do that.

    "Oh the game is old. No one got time for that." Well, then we can say don't have time to teach these people. The fact that the game is old make it even easier for someone with half brain do a quick research in the internet and find a decent build. Didn't like it? Modify it to fit your playstyle. They have all the cards, they just don't want to play it.

    Where us veterans learned how to play was never a question. It's what can we do for this game mode to help it rather than kitten and moan about it. But I guess it doesn't matter; apparently we all still suck because all of the real OGs who were any good have already quit playing and gone someplace else.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

    If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn?

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

    I don't think what is lacking are people willing to teach... Much on contrary: I think what is lacking are people willing to learn.

    Also, where you think us, veterans, learned how to play if there was no one to teach back then? Hell, in 2013 I was running around in WvW in a Clerics/Magi shout guardian in a dead server down in T8 with no one to teach me how to build properly... Ironically, shout guardian ended up becoming the backbone of WvW for many years. Was I a genius for thinking about how to make a decent build to help my team? I don't think so. I just decided to actually read what my skills/traits do and test them in the field. Most of those new people today don't seen to be able to do that.

    "Oh the game is old. No one got time for that." Well, then we can say don't have time to teach these people. The fact that the game is old make it even easier for someone with half brain do a quick research in the internet and find a decent build. Didn't like it? Modify it to fit your playstyle. They have all the cards, they just don't want to play it.

    Where us veterans learned how to play was never a question. It's what can we do for this game mode to help it rather than kitten and moan about it. But I guess it doesn't matter; apparently we all still suck because all of the real OGs who were any good have already quit playing and gone someplace else.

    If there were people interested in learning, I would gladly teach them. But no, you tell people that what they are doing is wrong and tell them what they need to change and they all groan and moan about how they wanna play their way and I'm tryharding... Most of these people don't want to learn. They want to be carried by the better players instead of improving themselves.

    So no, I'm not wasting time with people who don't want to learn. I already do enough of this in real life (as it is my job) to do that on my entertaiment time...

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I voted other - and that is a PvP Amulet/Sigil/Rune system implimentation for what is a PvP mode.

    You can't even talk balance until people can't min-max down to the last single attribute point. And until some stat combos that are terrible for PvP (looking at you Trailblazer) are restricted or removed from WvW.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Stop forcibly link players by guessing future activities with past data while keeping the kitten transfer cost so low.

    We could start with transfer cost...?

    Power > Condition

  • Please transfer to Sorrows Furnace so you can teach me and carry me. Maybe we can become a real server again!

    As for the balance I don’t like any of the options above. I would just like them to focus on keeping power creep in check and try to find a way to improve unused skills and traits to improve build diversity. It seems like most professions are using the same subset of skills and traits since there aren’t any competitive alternatives.

    I would also like it if they didn’t use elite specs to sell new expansions. It’s been pretty obvious that they nerf the previous specializations with each expansion. I doubt this will ever happen but it would be nice.

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Celestial Herald & Power Reaper

  • As for population balance, it would be funny if ArenaNet counters the most over stacked alliance by grouping them with the worst players possible. Give them all of the rally bots and noobs to make it a fair match up!

    Server: Sorrow's Furnace
    Guilds: [DOA] Descendants Of Ascalon, [LOOT] Legendary Order Of Thieves
    Characters: Black Hooded S\D Thief, Celestial Herald & Power Reaper

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    I voted other - and that is a PvP Amulet/Sigil/Rune system implimentation for what is a PvP mode.

    You can't even talk balance until people can't min-max down to the last single attribute point. And until some stat combos that are terrible for PvP (looking at you Trailblazer) are restricted or removed from WvW.

    This is an interesting point. I wonder if they were to restrict all of the "Pure" dps stats and "pure" defense stats if this would make the game more balanced. Less extremes, more middle.

    I personally think the powercreep and speed of play has ruined WvW. It is beyond hope of improvement, imo.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭

    "the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high" . . . fix the . . . uhmm

    Pretty sure, WvW doesn't work like that, and was never designed with the idea in mind, that casuals are a burden.

    Let's face the circle of doom: big scale mode without skill-based matchmaking
    -> above-average player complains about casuals
    -> semi-pro complains about the above-average player, and casuals
    -> pro complains about the semi-pro, above-average player, and casuals
    -> uber pro complains about everyone . . . and, consequently, quits the game, because no one's there, with enough "competence" to play with
    -> now, since the uber pro is gone, the pro complains about everyone . . . and, consequently, quits the game, because no one's there, with enough "competence" to play with
    -> etc.

    Teaching players would just bring back the pro's, that would bring back the uber pro's, and complaining would start again. Wanna break the circle of doom? Stop complaining about "incompetent" players. (Though, teaching the ones that are willing to get taught, is still a welcome option, of course ;) )

  • This game has always been non-competitive and promotes bad sportsmanship. Ever since release the best tactic has been staff 1 guardian braindead zergs. The game is not balanced by Arenanet and the players who play this game love it. There is no sportsmanship because the whole game has always been about transfer to the winning server to win. Arenanet encourages this because it makes them money.

    Changing your build to the most overpowered skills and traits every patch is skill in GW2. If your class gets nerfed most people would be better off just rerolling to the most overpowered class that hasn't been nerfed that patch. Instead of practicing just try to get the classes that kill you nerfed that's the GW2 way. Don't forget to buy the next expansion because they will nerf the old elite specs to force people to use the new ones. More power creep so instead of 1v1ing we can just 1shot each other.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again when everybody else has quit this game all that's left will be the trolls and gankers. What happens when the next expansion comes out and Arenanet adds more power creep to the game? Players only complain if they can't kill somebody. Nobody cares if they 1-hit others because people are biased and subjective. True objective balance is impossible because the human race is competitive and vengeful.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    I voted other - and that is a PvP Amulet/Sigil/Rune system implimentation for what is a PvP mode.

    You can't even talk balance until people can't min-max down to the last single attribute point. And until some stat combos that are terrible for PvP (looking at you Trailblazer) are restricted or removed from WvW.

    I guess the thought would be that the 1 v 1 matchups would be more balanced?

    Or what, with the amulet system, would it impact as far as ‘balance’?

  • TokenG.7863TokenG.7863 Member ✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    Granted, there's not too terribly much to learn in WvW. Dodge, bomb, use survival skills to stay up. Stay on tag. Class meta changes every 6 months or so, so everyone changes the way they play according to that. Kinda sad.

    If WvW is so simple as you put, why these players continue to be incompetent when there is so little to learn?

    Because so many don't want to teach. They would rather berate and troll new players about how bad they suck when they start out. Everybody sucked on their first week playing. Players come in to wvw usually not ready for what they meet, especially this late in the game. They don't know to look for stab or invulns on targets before they mash a button. Or what traits or gear to take to survive. Most of that takes some guidance to figure out. Some people are just too lazy and don't have any inclination to learn.

    I don't think what is lacking are people willing to teach... Much on contrary: I think what is lacking are people willing to learn.

    Also, where you think us, veterans, learned how to play if there was no one to teach back then? Hell, in 2013 I was running around in WvW in a Clerics/Magi shout guardian in a dead server down in T8 with no one to teach me how to build properly... Ironically, shout guardian ended up becoming the backbone of WvW for many years. Was I a genius for thinking about how to make a decent build to help my team? I don't think so. I just decided to actually read what my skills/traits do and test them in the field. Most of those new people today don't seen to be able to do that.

    "Oh the game is old. No one got time for that." Well, then we can say don't have time to teach these people. The fact that the game is old make it even easier for someone with half brain do a quick research in the internet and find a decent build. Didn't like it? Modify it to fit your playstyle. They have all the cards, they just don't want to play it.

    Where us veterans learned how to play was never a question. It's what can we do for this game mode to help it rather than kitten and moan about it. But I guess it doesn't matter; apparently we all still suck because all of the real OGs who were any good have already quit playing and gone someplace else.

    If there were people interested in learning, I would gladly teach them. But no, you tell people that what they are doing is wrong and tell them what they need to change and they all groan and moan about how they wanna play their way and I'm tryharding... Most of these people don't want to learn. They want to be carried by the better players instead of improving themselves.

    So no, I'm not wasting time with people who don't want to learn. I already do enough of this in real life (as it is my job) to do that on my entertaiment time...

    Yes, that is the mentality that I'm speaking about. There are some who willingly accept new people and take them in to teach them. There are the other who don't want to waste their "entertainment time" playing with people who aren't on their level. Yes, I realize that just like in RL, there are people who want to leach off of others and not put in the work. But what you put in is what you get out. Nothing comes for free. I'm just making the statement that so many people complain about the game mode being dead and irreversible but there are also so many who want to do nothing to help alleviate some of the symptom. I'm just drawing this off of the idea that skilled competition is desired more over player load balance. But you need load balance in order to make skilled competition fair.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    "the cost of trying to fix the competence gap is simply too high" . . . fix the . . . uhmm

    Pretty sure, WvW doesn't work like that, and was never designed with the idea in mind, that casuals are a burden.

    Let's face the circle of doom: big scale mode without skill-based matchmaking
    -> above-average player complains about casuals
    -> semi-pro complains about the above-average player, and casuals
    -> pro complains about the semi-pro, above-average player, and casuals
    -> uber pro complains about everyone . . . and, consequently, quits the game, because no one's there, with enough "competence" to play with
    -> now, since the uber pro is gone, the pro complains about everyone . . . and, consequently, quits the game, because no one's there, with enough "competence" to play with
    -> etc.

    Teaching players would just bring back the pro's, that would bring back the uber pro's, and complaining would start again. Wanna break the circle of doom? Stop complaining about "incompetent" players. (Though, teaching the ones that are willing to get taught, is still a welcome option, of course ;) )

    The point im making is that balancing servers coverage based on numbers alone with no consideration of competence will not necessarily create more balanced weekly matchups because the competence gap that exists between the "casuals" and the "hardcore" crowd is immense and always slowly increasing.

    They may not have designed the game mode with the intent that the "casuals" would one day be at a severe disadvantage against the more dedicated "hardcore" players but it's happened anyways as it always does.

    This situation exists and will continue to exist whether we talk about it or not. I think it's better to talk about it and risk hurting some feels in the process.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019

    @Israel.7056 said:
    The point im making is that balancing servers coverage based on numbers alone with no consideration of competence will not necessarily create more balanced weekly matchups because the competence gap that exists between the "casuals" and the "hardcore" crowd is immense and always slowly increasing.

    As I understood it, this is already on the list.

    "World Creation builds teams so they have similar predicted participation, skill,..."

    Though, I dont know, how they want to define and determine this "skill".

    Feb. 08:

    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    World Creation builds teams so they have similar predicted participation, skill, coverage, and language. Team assignment moves players onto teams by calculating the contribution value of a player and using that calculation to distribute players fairly. We plan to track stats like play hours in WvW, commander time and squad size, time of day, and participation levels. The exact stats have yet to be determined and we are open to suggestions of other stats to use in this system. This new system will expand upon the current calculation that uses play hours for linking.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/26547/world-restructuring/p1

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @enkidu.5937 said:
    Though, I dont know, how they want to define and determine this "skill".

    Experience is quantifiable, though I don't know how thorough their metrics are per player.

    Measuring relative skill is something that takes a more hands on evaluative approach. You cannot know just how good someone is by the number of hours they've played or the number of keeps they've taken or whatever statistic one wishes to look at though I suppose one can make some reasonable assumptions.

  • Tinnel.4369Tinnel.4369 Member ✭✭✭

    Other: Finding a game invested in its competitive modes.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The first chose anet cant control you simply cant make ppl play when you want them the player will play when they want to.
    Classes are not balanced for 1v1 at all.

  • I think the restructure will help in this. In the end if they have to set alliance caps small enough that only 30 or 40 ppl fit in them to achieve balance then I guess that's what it'll have to be. If the problem is that there aren't enough skilled opponents to fight outside of your friends, then they might force you to fight your friends.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TokenG.7863 said:
    I think the restructure will help in this. In the end if they have to set alliance caps small enough that only 30 or 40 ppl fit in them to achieve balance then I guess that's what it'll have to be. If the problem is that there aren't enough skilled opponents to fight outside of your friends, then they might force you to fight your friends.

    Depends on what that means in practice.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭

    No more zone blobs.

  • Optimator.3589Optimator.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    Make PPK worth more and PPT worth less. Counterbalance the night-cappers and the fight-dodging back-cappers.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • SloRules.3560SloRules.3560 Member ✭✭✭

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Make PPK worth more and PPT worth less. Counterbalance the night-cappers and the fight-dodging back-cappers.

    That's just bad.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Optimator.3589 said:
    Make PPK worth more and PPT worth less. Counterbalance the night-cappers and the fight-dodging back-cappers.

    One hundred percent agree tbh but I guess that's what alliances are supposed to do.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I always thought it would be an interesting idea for upgraded structures to be worth fewer points and the paper/easy to cap stuff to be worth more. I know that's kind of skewed, but the paper stuff is easier to flip and harder to defend.

    Alternatively, granting points for a successful defense based on the number of opposing attackers was also a thought that went through my head. Of course that would further favor more upgraded structures. Something like this would probably make the most sense in a system where objectives are all worth the same points regardless of tier.

    I know its a pipedream, but I voted for each class having better representation in large group fights.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

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