Let actual skilled PvPers redesign PvP with a dev. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Let actual skilled PvPers redesign PvP with a dev.

Chasind.3128Chasind.3128 Member ✭✭✭

what would you do to 'help' the dev in charge of PvP redesign this game mode?
You can't delete classes, or over nerf to unplayable in medium and higher ranks (like ele) because you dislike fighting against them.

<1

Comments

  • Chasind.3128Chasind.3128 Member ✭✭✭

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    So, punish skilled players? Sometimes it takes a very skilled player or 'pro' player to see all that is wrong and it CAN work. PvPers want new players, but not rank to be handed out like what casuals want.

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chasind.3128 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    So, punish skilled players? Sometimes it takes a very skilled player or 'pro' player to see all that is wrong and it CAN work. PvPers want new players, but not rank to be handed out like what casuals want.

    We already tried this, and this current situation is the result.

    Time for a new plan, time to casual it up.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chasind.3128 said:
    what would you do to 'help' the dev in charge of PvP redesign this game mode?
    You can't delete classes, or over nerf to unplayable in medium and higher ranks (like ele) because you dislike fighting against them.

    That's what people want. This is actually the result of balancing around casuals. Classes People dont like to play against. Removed from the competitive environment. Welcome to casual wars 2

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Only if they have some kind of personal attachment to it. Since it isn't their job, they would be volunteers and there would be no real consequences for them if they majorly screw things up.

    Like if they do a poor job, their accounts get banned. That would add some personal investment to doing a good job. There needs to be some pressure to do a good job and a gaurentee that they'll be impartial (which is part of doing a good job).

    Balance is best done when the developers follow on their own development vision and don't take the players into too much consideration. Players are fickle and tend to be very biased towards what they play. Of course, players can serve to find bugs or exceedingly broken mechanics. But players are liable to jump on something and call it OP more than anything, especially players on a game's forums. That isn't just GW2, most game forums are like this.

    No. I wouldn't trust the so-called 'expert playerbase' to this. Sure, they occasionally have good ideas. But player suggestions in a game are the equivalent to fan-fiction for a literary universe. You don't want the writers drawing from them as a pool for ideas, most of the time. Even if someone is great at dissecting and analysing a product, that doesn't mean they are good at producing or refining one.

    If a fan of GW2 happens to have the educational credentials and/or experience to be an expert on MMO balance, I'd encourage them to apply for a job at Anet instead.

    Or maybe get the person who is in charge of Mesmer balance, and make them in charge of all profession balance. Since Mesmer has always been in a pretty good spot for PvE, PvP, and WvWvW, I can only assume that the person who balances Mesmer knows their stuff.

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    You're basically asking for every single class in this game to be like condi mirage.

  • Bashi.8902Bashi.8902 Member ✭✭✭

    Just let boyce, Obindo, Sindrener, Helseth and Zan rebalance the game tbh.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    There is always bias from devs who design specific classes as well as top player mains. So it’s not as helpful as you think.

    Casuals on the other hand shouldn’t get a say either, if you don’t know how to dodge shatters, backstabs, snipes and deal with things like Moa and Rampage or pick your flavour of anything similar..... Then they really shouldn’t be saying something is OP until they unscrub.

    We need Sakurai.

  • A PTR/PTS where everyone can influence the game would be much better in my opinion. Not all, but a small loud minority of top players finding success in the meta are the first to jump into arguments on why their class and the meta are fine, L2P. Similarly pretty much every individual person in the game has some sort of class bias, myself included. Taking ideas and feedback from everyone from the top to bottom of the ladder would eliminate that problem, and that's how most other games balance their competitive modes.

    Remove Ranked DuoQ pls&ty

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    @Apolo.5942 said:

    @Chasind.3128 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    So, punish skilled players? Sometimes it takes a very skilled player or 'pro' player to see all that is wrong and it CAN work. PvPers want new players, but not rank to be handed out like what casuals want.

    We already tried this, and this current situation is the result.

    Time for a new plan, time to casual it up.

    Actually this is what we currently have or haven't you noticed damage is so high and easy that a lobotomised monkey can kill people now by spamming skills?

    What we need is people to give honest feedback, if they think everything is too much SAY SO! Instead we have the degenerates in the ele forum screaming "BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS!!" when really they should be screaming for everything to be nerfed down including weaver sustain. The worst part is they know kitten well that asking for buffs will lead to more power creep, they know it's bad, they know the right call are nerfs to everything, they just make excuses saying "It'll never happen" or "It's too hard to nerf everything" or "It's easier to just buff a few things to be competitive".

    You see it in a lot of forums btw but ele is the worst atm.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭

    Send out a questionaire to the 30 players with the highest combined years of playing and games played on both EU and NA, ask a series of focus questions and leave a large area for personal insights. Compare the results, everywhere that people agree on being a problem should be looked at.

    Then actually implement those changes without personal bias and complementary buffs.

  • Aza.2105Aza.2105 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    Easy fix. Let the one and only person working on pvp part time go and re hire all of the gw1 pvp team. Sit back wait for HoH, GVG, Team Arena, Random Arena, and Alliance battles.

    Then watch hordes of players come to play.

    Now this is a solution I can stand behind. What the hell happened to the GW1 pvp team? And I wonder if they could salvage GW2 pvp?

  • Ziggityzog.7389Ziggityzog.7389 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    They got released from duty when they laughed at the concept of circlequest.

    Hey lets make a map this big |..............................................................................................................| but only 3 spots the size of |....| matter.

    Those who disagreed were purged.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:

    @Chasind.3128 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    So, punish skilled players? Sometimes it takes a very skilled player or 'pro' player to see all that is wrong and it CAN work. PvPers want new players, but not rank to be handed out like what casuals want.

    We already tried this, and this current situation is the result.

    Time for a new plan, time to casual it up.

    Actually this is what we currently have or haven't you noticed damage is so high and easy that a lobotomised monkey can kill people now by spamming skills?

    What we need is people to give honest feedback, if they think everything is too much SAY SO! Instead we have the degenerates in the ele forum screaming "BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS!!" when really they should be screaming for everything to be nerfed down including weaver sustain. The worst part is they know kitten well that asking for buffs will lead to more power creep, they know it's bad, they know the right call are nerfs to everything, they just make excuses saying "It'll never happen" or "It's too hard to nerf everything" or "It's easier to just buff a few things to be competitive".

    You see it in a lot of forums btw but ele is the worst atm.

    Hold on...

    I get called a delusional troll, nab and bronze lord scrub who need to L2P when I ask for nerfs on other professions, I get banned from the forums for setting up threads asking for healthy nerfs because all the carebears jump to my throat to protect their braindead kitten whichever class it is

    I get called a degenerate for asking instead for buffs on the classes I like to play and accused of promoting powercreep

    I tell you what, I'll just go naked in the map and wait there to be killed just to make everybody happy.....

    The truth is this is not the kind of community you can talk about sportmanship and healthy competition , the majority of players here wants to get rewarded for skills they don't have and this whole game is set up in that way for them so...let's stop the whiteknighting....and let's put everybody on the same perceived powercreep level.

    If only one profession can be partially succesfull with running on a point and press buttons randomly then every bird will flock to that profession, it has been so for years now since March 2013 with mesmer and thief rework....yeah it was the time of the HS spammers and clone burst..the game only got worst from there, so I don't know what skill you're talking about in GW2...I come from GW1 , from a time where the devs were actually in charge of balance and not worried about....I'll let the video below do the talk

    I will leave this video so that you may finally understand how "balance" work in MMOs these days and why people should stop trying to hold the candle and let everybody take a slice of the fun cake

    Steve Jobs Interview Product People should get promoted Over Sales Marketing People

    P.S Yeah I will keep asking for buffs on ele..and I will stop doing that when they will seriously start nerfing the kitten out of condi/boon spam - stealth burst and 1200 range insta kill BS...until then have a nice day

    Yup, that about nails it down right there.

    Maybe instead of posting about what we demand to be fixed, we should mention what we would be willing to purchase if it was implemented.

  • Solidaris.5423Solidaris.5423 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    There is a tiny tiny problem with this. It is just a really small one but really! How do you identify a skilled player?

    Matches won? They could have been carried by the four others or they could have won because someone in their team has done the right decisions
    Number of Top Stats? There can be players in a match who has no Top Stats at the end but had done a greater job than the player who has 3
    Average rank? Again they might have been lucky with the matchmaking and get people they were able to click with or carried by.
    Number of YouTube subscribers or Twitch viewers? All I need to do for that is screech non-stop and whine to get publicity. I am not saying everyone does that but that can get high viewership easily :)
    **Voted by the community for it? ** Then we would get people whining about casuals choosing the skilled players who are not really skilled in their eyes.

    Of course you can identify a bad player easily but identifying a skilled one is difficult because a player may look skilled in one match but then he looks average in the next

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    That's basically like saying the goverment of a state should only consist out of average dumb ppl to make average dumb laws that fit the average dumb citizen.

    GG to your neck-beard-ignorance.

    Also Gw2 is not a hard game where you have to "play a simphony on your keyboard" to be decent.

  • Handing control to immature, self-centered, self-important kids who, for almost all of them, got identified at one point or another in their GW2 career as cheaters is a great idea. I don't see what could possibly go wrong.

    (Note: this post uses humour.)

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I guess people are forgetting that there’s pve/raids in this game.

  • Khalisto.5780Khalisto.5780 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    Dota balance is made 80% over the pro scene statistics 20% casual. Game has achieved some good balance, of course dota is a 100% pvp game and has their team fully committed to the game. But pros do get listened.

    As balance for casual, you can see the warrior overnerfed because ppl cant stop hitting a bubbled guy. And overall this would lead to noob friendly builds and punish the more skilled ones, as these builds often are more rewarding if played well.

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @dominik.9721 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    That's basically like saying the goverment of a state should only consist out of average dumb ppl to make average dumb laws that fit the average dumb citizen.

    Yes, otherwise known as Democracy, the best form of government ever invented.

    Also, people wake the f up, in no way a system based around reacting to different, some time instant and mostly unreadable animations, to trigger 1-2 invulnerabilities is considered casual. Its the split second reaction game, this has "pro" written all over it.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ziggityzog.7389 said:
    Easy fix. Let the one and only person working on pvp part time go and re hire all of the gw1 pvp team. Sit back wait for HoH, GVG, Team Arena, Random Arena, and Alliance battles.

    Then watch hordes of players come to play.

    This.
    I already said multiple times, get Izzy on charge of all balance. If something gets smiter's booned who cares as long as it is for the best overall.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:

    @Chasind.3128 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    So, punish skilled players? Sometimes it takes a very skilled player or 'pro' player to see all that is wrong and it CAN work. PvPers want new players, but not rank to be handed out like what casuals want.

    We already tried this, and this current situation is the result.

    Time for a new plan, time to casual it up.

    Actually this is what we currently have or haven't you noticed damage is so high and easy that a lobotomised monkey can kill people now by spamming skills?

    What we need is people to give honest feedback, if they think everything is too much SAY SO! Instead we have the degenerates in the ele forum screaming "BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS!!" when really they should be screaming for everything to be nerfed down including weaver sustain. The worst part is they know kitten well that asking for buffs will lead to more power creep, they know it's bad, they know the right call are nerfs to everything, they just make excuses saying "It'll never happen" or "It's too hard to nerf everything" or "It's easier to just buff a few things to be competitive".

    You see it in a lot of forums btw but ele is the worst atm.

    Hold on...

    I get called a delusional troll, nab and bronze lord scrub who need to L2P when I ask for nerfs on other professions, I get banned from the forums for setting up threads asking for healthy nerfs because all the carebears jump to my throat to protect their braindead kitten whichever class it is

    I get called a degenerate for asking instead for buffs on the classes I like to play and accused of promoting powercreep

    I tell you what, I'll just go naked in the map and wait there to be killed just to make everybody happy.....

    The truth is this is not the kind of community you can talk about sportmanship and healthy competition , the majority of players here wants to get rewarded for skills they don't have and this whole game is set up in that way for them so...let's stop the whiteknighting....and let's put everybody on the same perceived powercreep level.

    If only one profession can be partially succesfull with running on a point and press buttons randomly then every bird will flock to that profession, it has been so for years now since March 2013 with mesmer and thief rework....yeah it was the time of the HS spammers and clone burst..the game only got worst from there, so I don't know what skill you're talking about in GW2...I come from GW1 , from a time where the devs were actually in charge of balance and not worried about....I'll let the video below do the talk

    I will leave this video so that you may finally understand how "balance" work in MMOs these days and why people should stop trying to hold the candle and let everybody take a slice of the fun cake

    Steve Jobs Interview Product People should get promoted Over Sales Marketing People

    P.S Yeah I will keep asking for buffs on ele..and I will stop doing that when they will seriously start nerfing the kitten out of condi/boon spam - stealth burst and 1200 range insta kill BS...until then have a nice day

    Nice video. If you believe in having a better product give feedback that indicates so and be honest about it. If you believe that the right way is "nerfing the kitten out of condi/boon spam - stealth burst and 1200 range insta kill BS" then ask for that instead of buffs, that's what I'm saying.

    Besides I wasn't referring to you, when pushed you admit that the problem is everything overperforming but I'm sure you can think of the people I was referring to.

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

    how do you decide whos a good player ?

    Cause a lot of the high elo people are garbage. I can tell cus i actually stayed legendary for the last several months while soloing unlike 95% (quite literally a real number) of the people that sit in legendary. There's too much delusions going around

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Apolo.5942 said:

    @dominik.9721 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    That's basically like saying the goverment of a state should only consist out of average dumb ppl to make average dumb laws that fit the average dumb citizen.

    Yes, otherwise known as Democracy, the best form of government ever invented.

    Also, people wake the f up, in no way a system based around reacting to different, some time instant and mostly unreadable animations, to trigger 1-2 invulnerabilities is considered casual. Its the split second reaction game, this has "pro" written all over it.

    Democracy means that citizens have a right to vote/determine, not that you shouldn't make usage of the knowledge of everyone who is smarter than average.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:

    @Chasind.3128 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    So, punish skilled players? Sometimes it takes a very skilled player or 'pro' player to see all that is wrong and it CAN work. PvPers want new players, but not rank to be handed out like what casuals want.

    We already tried this, and this current situation is the result.

    Time for a new plan, time to casual it up.

    Actually this is what we currently have or haven't you noticed damage is so high and easy that a lobotomised monkey can kill people now by spamming skills?

    What we need is people to give honest feedback, if they think everything is too much SAY SO! Instead we have the degenerates in the ele forum screaming "BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS!!" when really they should be screaming for everything to be nerfed down including weaver sustain. The worst part is they know kitten well that asking for buffs will lead to more power creep, they know it's bad, they know the right call are nerfs to everything, they just make excuses saying "It'll never happen" or "It's too hard to nerf everything" or "It's easier to just buff a few things to be competitive".

    You see it in a lot of forums btw but ele is the worst atm.

    Hold on...

    I get called a delusional troll, nab and bronze lord scrub who need to L2P when I ask for nerfs on other professions, I get banned from the forums for setting up threads asking for healthy nerfs because all the carebears jump to my throat to protect their braindead kitten whichever class it is

    I get called a degenerate for asking instead for buffs on the classes I like to play and accused of promoting powercreep

    I tell you what, I'll just go naked in the map and wait there to be killed just to make everybody happy.....

    The truth is this is not the kind of community you can talk about sportmanship and healthy competition , the majority of players here wants to get rewarded for skills they don't have and this whole game is set up in that way for them so...let's stop the whiteknighting....and let's put everybody on the same perceived powercreep level.

    If only one profession can be partially succesfull with running on a point and press buttons randomly then every bird will flock to that profession, it has been so for years now since March 2013 with mesmer and thief rework....yeah it was the time of the HS spammers and clone burst..the game only got worst from there, so I don't know what skill you're talking about in GW2...I come from GW1 , from a time where the devs were actually in charge of balance and not worried about....I'll let the video below do the talk

    I will leave this video so that you may finally understand how "balance" work in MMOs these days and why people should stop trying to hold the candle and let everybody take a slice of the fun cake

    Steve Jobs Interview Product People should get promoted Over Sales Marketing People

    P.S Yeah I will keep asking for buffs on ele..and I will stop doing that when they will seriously start nerfing the kitten out of condi/boon spam - stealth burst and 1200 range insta kill BS...until then have a nice day

    Nice video. If you believe in having a better product give feedback that indicates so and be honest about it. If you believe that the right way is "nerfing the kitten out of condi/boon spam - stealth burst and 1200 range insta kill BS" then ask for that instead of buffs, that's what I'm saying.

    Besides I wasn't referring to you, when pushed you admit that the problem is everything overperforming but I'm sure you can think of the people I was referring to.

    I would also like to add this in reference to steve jobs video

  • Solidaris.5423Solidaris.5423 Member ✭✭✭

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    how do you decide whos a good player ?

    Cause a lot of the high elo people are garbage. I can tell cus i actually stayed legendary for the last several months while soloing unlike 95% (quite literally a real number) of the people that sit in legendary. There's too much delusions going around

    This is what I am asking as well. But I doubt the know-it-alls here can answer that to be honest. Not to mention a real pro player will never refer to themselves as pro players not because they are humble but because they are reasonable and know that there are others out there who have knowledge what they do not have.

  • I"m not for the idea of "letting pros" cause they mostly play one class only.
    BUT I really thing that the devs need to get more efficient ways of feedback cause when we look at POF spec developpement , we can hear devs saying the big kitten spec were weaver in term of time , effort and complexity. We all know that SPEC was a failure in design (maybe reliable to the core spec not really weaver) while other specs (mirage) were not that invested in ... it was just an interesting idea in term of lore (you know mirage... in the desert ... there you go you got the idea)

    For me , it shows the lack of realism and impact it could have in the game so they really need to improve their understanding of the consequences around the developpement and the balance. Getting feedback they themselves ask for ... and not on the forum but on a bunch of people sample specifically. We all know the topics here are not consider enough.

    First: they should determine at anet's if their community is that important that they let their communication staff say so.
    Then : they should determine the type of feedback that would be the most efficient.
    Finally : Select several players - individuals - influencers that could provide a good feedback on pre-defined questions/topic about a specific aspect of the game.

    Thanks for the attention to my pointless argue there !

  • @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:

    @Chasind.3128 said:

    @Apolo.5942 said:
    For god sakes NO, basemen dwellers with no jobs "pros", complained and complained and that got us the blow you up meta.

    Design around average players NOT "pros", assume most players either can not or are not willing to learn to play a simphony on their keyboard to play this game.

    So, punish skilled players? Sometimes it takes a very skilled player or 'pro' player to see all that is wrong and it CAN work. PvPers want new players, but not rank to be handed out like what casuals want.

    We already tried this, and this current situation is the result.

    Time for a new plan, time to casual it up.

    Actually this is what we currently have or haven't you noticed damage is so high and easy that a lobotomised monkey can kill people now by spamming skills?

    What we need is people to give honest feedback, if they think everything is too much SAY SO! Instead we have the degenerates in the ele forum screaming "BUFFS BUFFS BUFFS!!" when really they should be screaming for everything to be nerfed down including weaver sustain. The worst part is they know kitten well that asking for buffs will lead to more power creep, they know it's bad, they know the right call are nerfs to everything, they just make excuses saying "It'll never happen" or "It's too hard to nerf everything" or "It's easier to just buff a few things to be competitive".

    You see it in a lot of forums btw but ele is the worst atm.

    Hold on...

    I get called a delusional troll, nab and bronze lord scrub who need to L2P when I ask for nerfs on other professions, I get banned from the forums for setting up threads asking for healthy nerfs because all the carebears jump to my throat to protect their braindead kitten whichever class it is

    I get called a degenerate for asking instead for buffs on the classes I like to play and accused of promoting powercreep

    I tell you what, I'll just go naked in the map and wait there to be killed just to make everybody happy.....

    The truth is this is not the kind of community you can talk about sportmanship and healthy competition , the majority of players here wants to get rewarded for skills they don't have and this whole game is set up in that way for them so...let's stop the whiteknighting....and let's put everybody on the same perceived powercreep level.

    If only one profession can be partially succesfull with running on a point and press buttons randomly then every bird will flock to that profession, it has been so for years now since March 2013 with mesmer and thief rework....yeah it was the time of the HS spammers and clone burst..the game only got worst from there, so I don't know what skill you're talking about in GW2...I come from GW1 , from a time where the devs were actually in charge of balance and not worried about....I'll let the video below do the talk

    I will leave this video so that you may finally understand how "balance" work in MMOs these days and why people should stop trying to hold the candle and let everybody take a slice of the fun cake

    Steve Jobs Interview Product People should get promoted Over Sales Marketing People

    P.S Yeah I will keep asking for buffs on ele..and I will stop doing that when they will seriously start nerfing the kitten out of condi/boon spam - stealth burst and 1200 range insta kill BS...until then have a nice day

    that video is great, really simplifies a growing problem with gaming companies atm, especially AAA now that the curtain has been pulled away

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Players will always be biased toward their favourite profession. Be they "pro" or not.

    Just make the PvE minigames which are PvP in disguised open from the PvP lobby. Make these minigames count toward PvP reward and you'll get both PvP diversity and some PvP gamemodes balanced since those minigame aren't affected by profession's balance.

    Competing against other players is "PvP". Be it in conquest matchs or races, be it in team or solo. sPvP is rotting because there is no diversity, while in fact the game is full of PvP content but it's locked in PvE. How hard could it be to put a NPC in the PvP lobby that allow you to:

    • Enter various races (zephyrite, mounted races...) on various maps
    • Give access to solo PvP games (survival at southsun, crab toss)
    • Give access to team based game (snowball mayhem, dragonball arena, aspect arena)

    Base the next x-pack on mobs transformation and open up the polymock arena where you'll just fight/race against other while transformed with the least amount possible of skill/trait variation between player so that nobody get carried by it's profession. After all, if there is no profession there is no balance issue. And if there is gamemode diversity there is no boredom.

  • Ario.8964Ario.8964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solidaris.5423 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    how do you decide whos a good player ?

    Cause a lot of the high elo people are garbage. I can tell cus i actually stayed legendary for the last several months while soloing unlike 95% (quite literally a real number) of the people that sit in legendary. There's too much delusions going around

    This is what I am asking as well. But I doubt the know-it-alls here can answer that to be honest. Not to mention a real pro player will never refer to themselves as pro players not because they are humble but because they are reasonable and know that there are others out there who have knowledge what they do not have.

    A good start may be gathering up people who are well- known multiclassers. Yes, they may still have some bias towards their mains but generally people who play multiple classes end up with a bit less overbearing of a bias and they have a better insight as to what each interaction between classes is like. It's not a perfect solution of course, but it's a start. After that, you could gather up well- known mains of each class to get some more in depth knowledge pooled for each of the classes, establish that the point of the balancing is to nerf the powercreep and let the devs and players work their magic. In order to gather up the players for this, you could have each of the multiclassers that you gathered up previously list out maybe 5 or 6 players they know of from each class that have a good knowledge of the class and it's interactions in the meta (not necessarily the most skilled), take the common ones into the pool, and have everyone discuss with devs what the concerns are, and how to address them in a mediated environment with a pre- established end goal.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Yea, no...
    We in this mess because of top players..

    They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

    Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

    So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

    Not really... The aftermath you speak of is nothing more than a side effect of neglect after the top tier players trashed this game internationally on stage then continued to exploit the system in every way possible, no matter how many times Anet tried to fix it, the same top players exploited it..

    I don't blame Anet for abandoning this game mode, simple cause and effect that anyone mature could easily understand.
    So you are correct, the game now caters to casuals.

    Funny how you say "you are wrong" when you agreed with me without realizing.
    Cause and effect, I posted the cause and you posted the effect, pretty simple stuff.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    sKiLled pLaYers cOmpLaiNeD aNd tHat'S wHy tHe gAmE bLoWs!

    Just kidding.. maybe we ought to acknowledge that ArenaNet has full discretion what feedback to weight more heavily when balancing their game. ArenaNet balance changes seem to often take very little feedback into account overall.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Solidaris.5423Solidaris.5423 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ario.8964 said:

    @Solidaris.5423 said:

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    how do you decide whos a good player ?

    Cause a lot of the high elo people are garbage. I can tell cus i actually stayed legendary for the last several months while soloing unlike 95% (quite literally a real number) of the people that sit in legendary. There's too much delusions going around

    This is what I am asking as well. But I doubt the know-it-alls here can answer that to be honest. Not to mention a real pro player will never refer to themselves as pro players not because they are humble but because they are reasonable and know that there are others out there who have knowledge what they do not have.

    A good start may be gathering up people who are well- known multiclassers. Yes, they may still have some bias towards their mains but generally people who play multiple classes end up with a bit less overbearing of a bias and they have a better insight as to what each interaction between classes is like. It's not a perfect solution of course, but it's a start. After that, you could gather up well- known mains of each class to get some more in depth knowledge pooled for each of the classes, establish that the point of the balancing is to nerf the powercreep and let the devs and players work their magic. In order to gather up the players for this, you could have each of the multiclassers that you gathered up previously list out maybe 5 or 6 players they know of from each class that have a good knowledge of the class and it's interactions in the meta (not necessarily the most skilled), take the common ones into the pool, and have everyone discuss with devs what the concerns are, and how to address them in a mediated environment with a pre- established end goal.

    Thanks for your answer but the question is still open in my eyes which is HOW DO YOU CHOOSE THEM? With this I mean what statistics would consider those players be good at their class? What would make them be better than anyone else in the crowd?
    Why would A be better than B. Yes A has more of X statistics but B has more of Y statistics. But X and Y statistics have the same value so why was A chosen as a pro player for this while B was ignored?

    As I mentioned before you can tell a bad player easily but a good player is difficult to recognize and you cannot find any statistics which cannot be argued to be the bad way of choosing these people.
    This is the biggest obstacle with this whole idea. You cannot find a way to choose these players without finding weakness(es) to it.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Yea, no...
    We in this mess because of top players..

    They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

    Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

    So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

    Not really... The aftermath you speak of is nothing more than a side effect of neglect after the top tier players trashed this game internationally on stage then continued to exploit the system in every way possible, no matter how many times Anet tried to fix it, the same top players exploited it..

    I don't blame Anet for abandoning this game mode, simple cause and effect that anyone mature could easily understand.
    So you are correct, the game now caters to casuals.

    Funny how you say "you are wrong" when you agreed with me without realizing.
    Cause and effect, I posted the cause and you posted the effect, pretty simple stuff.

    You think i agreed on top players trashing the game mode? No, but keep your delusions to yourself.
    When did we ever make a joke of the game at ESL? Why on earth would playing your alts to the top not be allowed?

    Example being, I have rank 1 on my account, am I suddenly not allowed to queue on my alt accounts to get other titles?

    Wintrading do you even know what it is? And PvP has been dead longer than any of this occured, after worlds 2016 they gave up because all the people pushing for PvP left for Amazon and that meant Anet put PvP to the side, neither of those 2 reasons you just gave even existed back then.

    So no, you are wrong.

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Yea, no...
    We in this mess because of top players..

    They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

    Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

    So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

    Not really... The aftermath you speak of is nothing more than a side effect of neglect after the top tier players trashed this game internationally on stage then continued to exploit the system in every way possible, no matter how many times Anet tried to fix it, the same top players exploited it..

    I don't blame Anet for abandoning this game mode, simple cause and effect that anyone mature could easily understand.
    So you are correct, the game now caters to casuals.

    Funny how you say "you are wrong" when you agreed with me without realizing.
    Cause and effect, I posted the cause and you posted the effect, pretty simple stuff.

    You think i agreed on top players trashing the game mode? No, but keep your delusions to yourself.
    When did we ever make a joke of the game at ESL? Why on earth would playing your alts to the top not be allowed?

    Example being, I have rank 1 on my account, am I suddenly not allowed to queue on my alt accounts to get other titles?

    Wintrading do you even know what it is? And PvP has been dead longer than any of this occured, after worlds 2016 they gave up because all the people pushing for PvP left for Amazon and that meant Anet put PvP to the side, neither of those 2 reasons you just gave even existed back then.

    So no, you are wrong.

    Yes, you did.. Lol
    Also if you are going to use words like delusional then perhaps its best not to use it in that sentence where you imply that top players farming lower levels on alts is healthy for the game and its players, because that is delusional, even more so if we were to think about all the players who deserve a top 250 spot but got pushed out because players have thier mains and alts up there.

    As I said earlier, cause and effect is simple to understand if you're mature enough and your insults, strawmans and manners have shown where you sit in that spectrum.

    Now just to give you the benefit of doubt here and to give you an exit from that hole, Ive been around since the start and my comment was a past tense comment reflected back onto token systems and ESL times hency why your comment about the game being catered to casuals now is also correct.. Cause and Effect.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    Apologies if I come off as dry or blunt.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bluri.2653 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Yea, no...
    We in this mess because of top players..

    They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

    Actually you are wrong, PoF balance is an aftermath after leaving ESL and serious PvP Competition where devs do not feel the pressure to fix broken stuff because they don't care to uphold a standard good enough for serious PvP/ESL, this means they cater towards the casuals.

    So in other words, you casuals are to" blame" for the lack of proper balance which makes people quit :)

    Not really... The aftermath you speak of is nothing more than a side effect of neglect after the top tier players trashed this game internationally on stage then continued to exploit the system in every way possible, no matter how many times Anet tried to fix it, the same top players exploited it..

    I don't blame Anet for abandoning this game mode, simple cause and effect that anyone mature could easily understand.
    So you are correct, the game now caters to casuals.

    Funny how you say "you are wrong" when you agreed with me without realizing.
    Cause and effect, I posted the cause and you posted the effect, pretty simple stuff.

    You think i agreed on top players trashing the game mode? No, but keep your delusions to yourself.
    When did we ever make a joke of the game at ESL? Why on earth would playing your alts to the top not be allowed?

    Example being, I have rank 1 on my account, am I suddenly not allowed to queue on my alt accounts to get other titles?

    Wintrading do you even know what it is? And PvP has been dead longer than any of this occured, after worlds 2016 they gave up because all the people pushing for PvP left for Amazon and that meant Anet put PvP to the side, neither of those 2 reasons you just gave even existed back then.

    So no, you are wrong.

    Yes, you did.. Lol
    Also if you are going to use words like delusional then perhaps its best not to use it in that sentence where you imply that top players farming lower levels on alts is healthy for the game and its players, because that is delusional, even more so if we were to think about all the players who deserve a top 250 spot but got pushed out because players have thier mains and alts up there.

    As I said earlier, cause and effect is simple to understand if you're mature enough and your insults, strawmans and manners have shown where you sit in that spectrum.

    Now just to give you the benefit of doubt here and to give you an exit from that hole, Ive been around since the start and my comment was a past tense comment reflected back onto token systems and ESL times hency why your comment about the game being catered to casuals now is also correct.. Cause and Effect.

    My alt is equally as high rated as my main, how are we farming "low levels"? If I want several of my accounts to have a top spot how is that any harm or supposed to not be allowed lol? Mommy someone is better than me in this game and has several accounts and that makes me not be able to get top250 its unfair and not healthy!!!!

    All you do is talk around the questions I asked you.

    When did players make any joke out of ESL? What did "token system" have to do with ESL? Im assuming you are talking about paid tournaments back at launch?

    And lastly, the game was in its best state during ESL balancewise and populationwise, as soon as that vanished the game is dead.

    Honestly I don't even expect an answer from you because I can tell you have absolute no idea what you are talking about, you are just another casual who whines about people playing alts and throwing around the word wintrade without knowing anything about it, I bet you use wintrade as soon as a player just straight out afks.

    When the game was balanced around top players -> good balance and healthy population
    When the game is balanced around players like you -> garbage balance and dead population

    That's all there is to it and nothing else

    It's worth pointing out that when 5 D/D celementalists nearly won the ESL then proceeded to win 4 +1 SA thief to stealth rez the next week we saw a VERY fast patch to address elementalist. I think it was a week or two later we got the first nerfs, you might remember more accurately than me though.

    ESL, especially the weeklies were an excellent place to see how the top end and teams play. It showed what was capable with the class synergy and would show what classes were currently must have picks as well as must have stats.

    There is only one time I know of where pro players adversely affected balance and that was during the pro league chrono bunker days. I believe all the pro teams were asked if a balance patch should come out and risk changing the meta halfway through or to let it play out with the current state. I believe let it be was the common consensus. Either way pro players haven't affected 80% of the population because they almost never play with or interact with them.

    What I'm far more concerned about is ANet having a private discord to chat with popular streamers who haven't known the game from launch and so don't understand the subtlety that existed back then as well as having the years of experience on core to know when a small innocent change will turn a build into complete face roll. Fortunately I believe they don't ask about balance but I shudder to think what kind of clownfiesta we'd end up with if they did...oh wait.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @apharma.3741 said:
    There is only one time I know of where pro players adversely affected balance and that was during the pro league chrono bunker days. I believe all the pro teams were asked if a balance patch should come out and risk changing the meta halfway through or to let it play out with the current state. I believe let it be was the common consensus.

    There is just not a shred of truth behind this statement. All competent players took one look at HoT 2.0 versions of Rev and Chrono and their unanimous feedback to ArenaNet for PvP was:

    "Hotfix or suffer permanent consequences."

    ArenaNet slept on it, that was that. I mentioned before, but I'll say it again: ArenaNet is responsible for deciding what feedback is relevant, and whether to act based on feedback at all... (Commonly not the case)

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:
    There is only one time I know of where pro players adversely affected balance and that was during the pro league chrono bunker days. I believe all the pro teams were asked if a balance patch should come out and risk changing the meta halfway through or to let it play out with the current state. I believe let it be was the common consensus.

    There is just not a shred of truth behind this statement. All competent players took one look at HoT 2.0 versions of Rev and Chrono and their unanimous feedback to ArenaNet for PvP was:

    "Hotfix or suffer permanent consequences."

    ArenaNet slept on it, that was that. I mentioned before, but I'll say it again: ArenaNet is responsible for deciding what feedback is relevant, and whether to act based on feedback at all... (Commonly not the case)

    Tell that to Helseth then as I believe it was him that divulged the information. Vod was a long time ago so likely not there unless someone clipped it so if there's a mistake on my part I don't mind being corrected.

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Yea, no...
    We in this mess because of top players..

    They made a joke of the game at ESL and continue to plague the ranks with alts and win trading since then, they are a good chunk of the reason to the death of PVP.

    So this is completely wrong. ESL was the best for balance because it was in the public eye. People outside the gw2 community watched. If people see that only one or two professions are effective it will look boring and stagnant and people will not be interested in playing the game. That gives developers motivation to balance to make sure every profession is good. That is how you gain players. No one is going to be interested in trying PvP if their professions is garbage in it.

    To address your complaint about top players playing their alt accounts and taking up extra top 250 spots, again makes no sense. I will tell you why. Say there are 10 top players each with 2 accounts that are equally rated. that is 20 spots. Out of 250 that is only 13% of the spots. Your complaint is they are knocking people out of the top 250 but chances are the top 20 spots average rating and bottom 20 are not super close to each other. If you are good enough at PvP you should be able to get yourself into the middle of the ratings and secure a top 250 spot.

    If you are falling in and out of the bottom that just means you are doing the minimum to get into the top 250 which is your own fault and top players using more than one account literally has 0 bearing on you or anyone in that position.

    EDIT: you are essentially mad at pro players not being as lazy as you.

  • Patrick.2987Patrick.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    Easiest way to balance specs is probably to make pvp core specs only as they are not used in pve much i think and balance them for pvp. Would be way easier than balance with all the specs out there but still no one actually really cares to make a change, players won't put their effort in for it cause no rewards and devs won't because of a small playerbase and it would cost money and resources.

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Patrick.2987 said:
    Easiest way to balance specs is probably to make pvp core specs only as they are not used in pve much i think and balance them for pvp. Would be way easier than balance with all the specs out there but still no one actually really cares to make a change, players won't put their effort in for it cause no rewards and devs won't because of a small playerbase and it would cost money and resources.

    This is not a bad idea at all. But I like at gw1 with all the combos you could do with dual professions and all the variety there was and nothing ever seemed too over the top. In gw1 I usually felt whoever won the battle played it better. Now half the time I just go what the hell happened!?

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