Episode 5: All or Nothing Trailer Discussion. - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Episode 5: All or Nothing Trailer Discussion.

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  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I still think ArenaNet are making a massive mistake if they're going to go the route of "Oh you needed MacGuffin all along" that we're going to recover in less than a single episode, most likely, the episode after we got that disastrous vision that specifically focused on allies, not MacGuffins.

    That could indicate that no matter our allies, we need some item, or power, that counters Kralkatorrik's insane AoE lightning breath. Which would be in line with the vision as well. Remember, visions are warnings as much as they are meant to inform. In this case bringing additional flies to the flamethrower just results in more burnt flies.
    However, if we can field some "dirty"tricks, we may be able to turn this around. That may include luring Kralky into an area where we can reflect his attacks back at him, finding areas where magic is far less powerful, forcing Kralkatorrik to bleed magic back into the environment, or just dropping a mountain onto the dragon to break his back.
    Because let's face it, if you got the vision that an assault on Kralkatorrik will fail, why would you go and assault him anyway?

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    You misunderstand. I'm not talking in universe reasoning or strategies, I'm talking narrative, out of universe reasoning. Why bother with the vision if it's not going to be at all impactful.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    You misunderstand. I'm not talking in universe reasoning or strategies, I'm talking narrative, out of universe reasoning. Why bother with the vision if it's not going to be at all impactful.

    because it is impactful, if it prevents the commander and Aurene from doing something incredible stupid?

  • @Arden.7480 said:

    so they risked everything for something they could have predicted?

    But if it was after Glint's death, then why didn't they help her and Destiny's Edge out to bring down Kralkatorrik?

    And where was Vlast, where were her crystal guardians/facets? No answer, it's largely an oversight of a third party writer, no doubt.

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I still think ArenaNet are making a massive mistake if they're going to go the route of "Oh you needed MacGuffin all along" that we're going to recover in less than a single episode, most likely, the episode after we got that disastrous vision that specifically focused on allies, not MacGuffins.

    I mean, technically we needed three mcguffins. A base safe from Kralk (Sun's Refuge), a means to track Kralk (Blish + Balthazar's sword + Blish's tracker), and a means to overcome Kralkatorrik's strength.

    Given the preview, the Brotherhood of the Dragon + Glint had more than one weapon made out of Kralkatorrik's blood. We'll have an upgradeable "Dragonsblood weapons", the same naming as the Dragonsblood Spear we destroyed. The dwarves also made the Sanguinary Blade out of Jormag's blood. So I suspect that one of the "means to overcome Kralkatorrik's strength" will be arming an army with weapons that resonate with Kralkatorrik's own frequency, thus becoming effective against branded and Kralkatorrik alike.

    That would be a huge advantage compared to just having one person (Aurene) who could deal harm to Kralkatorrik. That will spread Kralkatorrik's attention, at the very least, as anyone could harm him versus only one being can harm him.

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    You misunderstand. I'm not talking in universe reasoning or strategies, I'm talking narrative, out of universe reasoning. Why bother with the vision if it's not going to be at all impactful.

    It is impactful. Just because we find a way to make the vision not come to pass doesn't make it impactful.

    Right off the bat it's impactful because, as I said, it prevents the Commander and his allies from going after Kralkatorrik right away. This delay of needing to find some method to counteract Kralkatorrik's strength also gives Kralkatorrik time to get stronger.

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    Regarding Vlast's whereabouts during the battle against Kralk, Josso Essher states the following in the Book of Vlast where he also curiously believed that Glint had prophesized her own death: "When the Branded came, Glint sent Vlast away. She could feel Kralkatorrik coming to destroy her. She prophesized a great legacy, an important role for Vlast, and could not risk his death as well." Granted, the same book also curiously suggests that Vlast inspired generations of Elonians with his heroics even though Kralk has only been awake for a decade given the time of his rise while Destiny's Edge was active, so take that as you will.

    As for our ways of battling the Branded, Josso does give us something more concrete to work on as per his speech in Kesho:

    Josso Essher: Kralkatorrik's unique strength—its power to crystalize objects—is also its singular weakness.
    Josso Essher: Its creations share a fundamental resonance that connects them back to the crystal dragon and makes them vulnerable to each other.

    What makes the above tidbit interesting is a little side achievement called Crystal Attunement in Sun's Refuge regarding Naja studying crystal frequencies. As per her ambient dialogue:

    Naja: Such beautiful sounds, made by such terrible things...
    Naja: This sound... There's something intriguing about it. Musical. Lilting. Purposeful.
    Naja: I wonder what this would sound like in the Mists. How much can ghosts hear, anyway?
    Naja: Strange. A part of me rings like a bell when I hear the water running over these crystals.
    Naja: Wonder if you could make musical instruments from Brand crystals. If the Brand scar could sing like a harp.
    Naja: Hm. Wind would have to be right.

    Perhaps one of the keys to defeating Kralk will be using his own Brand and/or Branded against him in Tyria and the Mists (why would Naja just off-handedly wonder out loud what it would sound like in the Mists if not to foreshadow something now that Kralk is in the Mists?) with a resonance like a tuning fork creates sound when hit on a proper surface. It would be ironic for Kralk, the selfish dragon who desires to turn everything in his image and destroying what he can't have, to be disoriented and weakened by his very own Brand with the sweet sound of music before we face him in a final assault.

    Another cool but unlikely comeuppance would be if we somehow completed the Forgotten purification ritual on Kralk if Josso and co couldn't manage it (the wording seems to leave it ambiguous whether they successfully cast it or if Kralk killed them before they finished it). Even though as the originator of the corruption and being a selfish prude Kralk would not turn to the side of good, I'd love the karmic fate of the purification giving him a new mental frequency as he adjusts to the changed magic, and thus severing his connection to the hivemind of the already existing Branded. If that was feasible lorewise, it'd be fun to see the confused old school Branded panic (and mirror the Icebrood's reaction to Snaff severing the Dragonspawn's mental link to Icebrood hivemind in Edge of Destiny) and have Kralk end up being assaulted by tens of thousands of Branded who, due to different hivemind frequency, now view him as a foreign entity in their midst in a lovely twist. ;)

    I do hope that we'll find more allies to fight Kralk with. I've been waiting for Forged to return to the story to earn their redemption as tragic villains. Surely Zafirah must exist for more than just make us feel sympathy for Balthazar's priesthood; as a Balthy sympathizer she could be our emissary to the Forged, and we might finally meet the General of the Burning Forest who was mentioned in Devona's letters and who was sent south to prepare for Balthazar's arrival but who never showed up in PoF to my knowledge. I just don't want the Forged to suffer the fate of Mordrem Guard and be forgotten except for a side mention. Although seeing them in a raid would be nice, they still played a major part in the general pve experience, so they deserve a proper pve sendoff outside raids too. They're an army literally forged to take the fight to Kralk, so it'd be foolish on our part to ignore these perfect killing machines who, if they're like Exalted in the way they were created with Forgotten magics (as suggested in Kesho), should be immune to being corrupted and thus act as great frontline soldiers in our assault.

    As for visions of the future, it's curious that Snaff suggested in "Legacy" that Glint has a prophecy regarding Aurene AND us. Either she had this premonition before her death, or her prophetic abilities persist in her current existence in the Mists:

    Character name: No. She can't face Kralkatorrik alone. She isn't ready!
    Snaff: Not alone, Commander. Your fate is entwined with hers. The prophecy hinges on you both.

    What I hope is that Kralk is given his due in the narrative. He's been a mostly distant force and with not enough recent impact compared to Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Sure, he's caused trouble in the past to affect some characters, but as Commander we haven't really faced any personal losses beyond Blish and arguably Qais. To really hammer home Kralk as a dragon nemesis, he needs to do something vile that really rattles the Commander. I wonder if the promotional image for Ep5 showing a pensive Aurene next to Glint and Glint being referred to in the past tense in the trailer means that something will go horribly wrong in the episode and Glint will sacrifice herself, this time dying for good. While it would be sad to see her die a second death despite not getting to interact with her that much, it would show Kralk as an even more menacing figure and hammer home how Aurene really is our last hope when even her mother's spirit can't guide her or us anymore. If that happens, though, I'd love to see one tearful scene between Glint, Vlast and Aurene so our scion can say proper farewells to her family before facing grandpa in a later battle.

    The mention of Dragonsblood weapons set, the existence of that area of Deldrimor Front for the episode, and Caithe reappearing makes me curious. At the end of Edge of Destiny Caithe was shown gathering Kralkatorrik's crystallized blood for a reason, and these crystals could be used to fashion new weapons akin to Dragonsblood Spear we destroyed, or even another powerstone laurel like the one Snaff fashioned, especially if Snaff's ghost and/or Zojja help us finish it with Taimi's assistance to try the same "mind control" tactic on Kralk again. What's also interesting is the idea if Dragonsblood Spear has ties to another weapon tied to dragons, namely the Sanguinary Blade which just so happens to also be known as Dragon's Blood Blade and has mysterious origins apart from its brief possession by Stone Summit in the past.

    If Thunderhead Peaks lets us explore Marhan's Grotto and we learn more about the Brotherhood of the Dragon, what if Marhan, the legendary dwarven weaponsmith, is retroactively revealed as a member of the Brotherhood who crafted both Sanguinary Blade and Dragonsblood Spear as per Glint's instructions? While the GW1 description for the grotto mentions axes in particular, there's still enough leeway there:

    Once, Dwarves from all over the Shiverpeaks made the trek here to barter with Marhan the Mighty, a weaponsmith who was reputed for making the best axes in all the land. After he passed into the Great Forge, this grotto was named in his honor.

    Perhaps to best Kralk, we need not only unusual allies like Forged but also a powerstone laurel, new Dragonsblood weapons, turning the Brand and Branded into a kind of tuning fork to disorient Kralk with the resonance, and use a Forgotten purification ritual to sever Kralk's connection to Branded hivemind, all of which would hopefully leave him vulnerable enough for the final blow by Ep6?

    However, before any of that is to happen, there's one thing I'd love Kralk to do to truly turn his Mists trip into a memorable one. What if he's learned of the existence of the Rift and the Hall of Heroes within which, as per GW1 and wvw lore, has the access point to all realms of the multiverse and time itself? Kralk would not only threaten to ravage our Mists but the entire multiverse and all that was, is, and will be. The Hall of Heroes already exists as a mostly finished asset with a map in GW2.dat before it was removed late in development due to lack of meaningful content for it, but adding a few Branded crystals there would make it suitable for a final battle location as it already looks rather ruined. Just imagine the craziness of witnessing our Kralkatorrik Prime in the hall trying to reach the nexus of the multiverse while we see crystallized reflections of alt Tyria Kralkatorriks battling their realm's version of the Commander and trying to reach their side of the nexus at the same time. How would the Kralks react to the revelation of multiple versions of himself existing? Would he seek to destroy his alts to become The One, or avoid them out of worry that all Kralk powers match at this point as the timeline is the same (e.g. Snaff has died in each alt Tyria) in all multiverse versions of Tyria? What about a temporary alliance so we'd witness a flight of Kralkatorriks and we'd join forces with other realms' Commanders in a mind-twisting battle in the Mists for the grand finale? This would be such a golden opportunity to nudge at wvw and old GW1 lore and leave a lasting impression on players to up Kralk's threat level.

    While I find most of the following unlikely, I'd personally love to see many of the past, slain heroes and villains join our side as ghosts out of necessity to prevent all reality from being destroyed. Imagine fighting alongside the likes of Snaff, Eir, Omadd, our mentors, Apatia, Tonn, Trahearne, Demmi, Caudecus, Kudu, Gaheron Baelfire, Faolain, Scarlet, Devona, Oluwa Eranko, Olori Ogun, Lonai, Varesh, maybe even find if Balthazar's spirit survived his demise somehow unless he was fully absorbed by the two dragons etc. While this would risk diminishing the impact of their deaths, it'd be justified in this case due to the reality-bending actions of Kralk and ghosts being displaced in the Mists. To spice things up, add in inevitable villain betrayals as I imagine at least Gaheron would want another shot at coming back to life after we foiled his scheme in Citadel of Flame explorable's Magg path. It'd be a finale worth remembering and be a truly nice callback to our trials and tribulations in personal story and past expansions and seasons to bring things full circle as we wrap up Destiny's Edge storyline with Kralk's defeat. :)

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    Some details that got my attention:

    1) There is a bristleback in the trailer, that is native only to the warm climate, doesn't look like it's like this chunk from Maguuma in Jahai, it's fully branded, which makes me very suspicious and I wonder how it got to the mountains. How did Kralkatorrik managed to brand something that doesn't belong to this climate. One bristleback got lost and climbed the mountains high? No, I don't think so, and I have no idea how it got there, none, can Kralkatorrik move the species all across the world, not even being close to them?

    2) There is Kito during the PC's speech standing in front of Rox. Haven't appeared since he informed us about the unusual order that the Inquest got from his man, and there is also a very suspicious thing about him, because Zaeim said that he was told Kito and the Commander defeated two Elder Dragons and Balthazar together. I thought he was secretly Joko's spy or something, but now I don't know who he really is. Also he promised he would help us to rescue Zaeim, but he didn't come, and it's a wonder the PC didn't point it out.

    EDIT: He actually appeared in Jahai as heart, and the Commander seems very annoyed about him:

    Kito: We're under attack! Get squads to the entrances!
    PC: I want to buy something real quick.
    Kito: Now? Did you not hear me? We're under attack!
    PC: Yes, we are. Now show me the goods.

    3) The screen goes blur, then white, and then is blacking when Kralkatorrik looks angrily at us - can mean just nothing, but I believe there will be PC's Death 2.0, but not only the Commander will die, but everyone else, and Aurene too. That's my most insane theory about this episode, and people on Reddit doesn't seem to like this idea, because it won't give the same surprise moment as in PoF etc etc. Meh, Kralk is SO powerful, INSANELY powerful than Balthazar, and he doesn't kill us? That'd be kind of weird, but I don't know if they will go this route again, because the PC's first death was kind of disappointing. That'd be insane, though... But I am divided about this speculation, because there is this slight sign that can happen something catastrophic, but will this be THAT catastrophic? I have no idea. We will soon find out, right? :)

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Some details that got my attention:

    1) There is a bristleback in the trailer, that is native only to the warm climate, doesn't look like it's like this chunk from Maguuma in Jahai, it's fully branded, which makes me very suspicious and I wonder how it got to the mountains. How did Kralkatorrik managed to brand something that doesn't belong to this climate. One bristleback got lost and climbed the mountains high? No, I don't think so, and I have no idea how it got there, none, can Kralkatorrik move the species all across the world, not even being close to them?

    Technically yes he can. It was established in Ep4 that the portals occur across Elona, and it's warping in parts of Orr and Maguuma's history too. We even get historical bits of Ascalon and the Shiverpeaks in Jahai momentarily during the Riftstalker events, which includes living beings from those regions (Flame Legion, raptors, etc.). It wouldn't be impossible for him to open portals across the world.

    Would have expected some Side Story event about it though, but the same team that does Side Stories does festivals, so they were busy with Freezie, I guess.

    @Arden.7480 said:
    2) There is Kito during the PC's speech standing in front of Rox. Haven't appeared since he informed us about the unusual order that the Inquest got from his man, and there is also a very suspicious thing about him, because Zaeim said that he was told Kito and the Commander defeated two Elder Dragons and Balthazar together. I thought he was secretly Joko's spy or something, but now I don't know who he really is. Also he promised he would help us to rescue Zaeim, but he didn't come, and it's a wonder the PC didn't point it out.

    EDIT: He actually appeared in Jahai as heart, and the Commander seems very annoyed about him:

    Kito: We're under attack! Get squads to the entrances!
    PC: I want to buy something real quick.
    Kito: Now? Did you not hear me? We're under attack!
    PC: Yes, we are. Now show me the goods.

    I doubt that dialogue has anything to do with the story. It seems more like a joke on players' insistence over things, and a means to keep the vendor from being inaccessible during that frequently reoccurring event chain.

    And Kito did help us rescue Zaeim. He didn't need to come personally, because there was a Sunspear army allied with Rytlock and Canach and Aurene. If you haven't noticed, Kito is not a front-line fighter.

    3) The screen goes blur, then white, and then is blacking when Kralkatorrik looks angrily at us - can mean just nothing, but I believe there will be PC's Death 2.0, but not only the Commander will die, but everyone else, and Aurene too. That's my most insane theory about this episode, and people on Reddit doesn't seem to like this idea, because it won't give the same surprise moment as in PoF etc etc. Meh, Kralk is SO powerful, INSANELY powerful than Balthazar, and he doesn't kill us? That'd be kind of weird, but I don't know if they will go this route again, because the PC's first death was kind of disappointing. That'd be insane, though... But I am divided about this speculation, because there is this slight sign that can happen something catastrophic, but will this be THAT catastrophic? I have no idea. We will soon find out, right? :)

    The final scene was influenced by Godzilla 2014 movie, confirmed by one of the devs who made the trailer. Likely has no true meaning, it was just showing off Kralkatorrik's new model in an obscure (aka Godzilla 2014 Chinatown trailer scene) way.

    Killing the PC again would be silly - any repeating of narrative in short span is simply poor writing. It'd be redoing a plot point a second time, and Aurene's death would mean we fail and the world dies. ArenaNet does tend to have a "hero's actions worsen things" but they always solve the immediate problem. That said, I do expect some deaths, but I think the PC and Aurene are off limits for the sake of plot. That resurrection thing was meant to be a one time deal, after all.

  • @Kossage.9072 said:
    However, before any of that is to happen, there's one thing I'd love Kralk to do to truly turn his Mists trip into a memorable one. What if he's learned of the existence of the Rift and the Hall of Heroes within which, as per GW1 and wvw lore, has the access point to all realms of the multiverse and time itself? Kralk would not only threaten to ravage our Mists but the entire multiverse and all that was, is, and will be. The Hall of Heroes already exists as a mostly finished asset with a map in GW2.dat before it was removed late in development due to lack of meaningful content for it, but adding a few Branded crystals there would make it suitable for a final battle location as it already looks rather ruined.

    I really, really hope that they have the final battle with Kralkatorrik in the Hall of Heroes. I've wanted this since we saw the Dragonbrand ending at the Tomb of Primeval Kings back in 2010; us riding one of Glint's children in a final battle against Kralkatorrik in the "skies" above the Hall of Heroes.

    And that was before alternate Tyrias were brought into the lore via WvW, or we had a ruined Hall of Heroes or even Aurene.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    However, before any of that is to happen, there's one thing I'd love Kralk to do to truly turn his Mists trip into a memorable one. What if he's learned of the existence of the Rift and the Hall of Heroes within which, as per GW1 and wvw lore, has the access point to all realms of the multiverse and time itself? Kralk would not only threaten to ravage our Mists but the entire multiverse and all that was, is, and will be. The Hall of Heroes already exists as a mostly finished asset with a map in GW2.dat before it was removed late in development due to lack of meaningful content for it, but adding a few Branded crystals there would make it suitable for a final battle location as it already looks rather ruined.

    I really, really hope that they have the final battle with Kralkatorrik in the Hall of Heroes. I've wanted this since we saw the Dragonbrand ending at the Tomb of Primeval Kings back in 2010; us riding one of Glint's children in a final battle against Kralkatorrik in the "skies" above the Hall of Heroes.

    And that was before alternate Tyrias were brought into the lore via WvW, or we had a ruined Hall of Heroes or even Aurene.

    you mean this weird light in the mists? YAS pls!

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • I really hope the final battle includes Sunspears on Griffons. I mean, we have the Sunspear Sanctuary in Vabbi that has many Griffon nests, and Kitur said he wanted to train some new Sunspears and get griffon riding a thing again so they could have an edge against enemy ground forces.

    The player riding Aurene, Sunspears on griffons, Pact airships, an army of mooks on the ground, would be cool as hell.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    @Kossage.9072 said:
    As for our ways of battling the Branded, Josso does give us something more concrete to work on as per his speech in Kesho:

    Josso Essher: Kralkatorrik's unique strength—its power to crystalize objects—is also its singular weakness.
    Josso Essher: Its creations share a fundamental resonance that connects them back to the crystal dragon and makes them vulnerable to each other.

    What makes the above tidbit interesting is a little side achievement called Crystal Attunement in Sun's Refuge regarding Naja studying crystal frequencies. As per her ambient dialogue:

    Naja: Such beautiful sounds, made by such terrible things...
    Naja: This sound... There's something intriguing about it. Musical. Lilting. Purposeful.
    Naja: I wonder what this would sound like in the Mists. How much can ghosts hear, anyway?
    Naja: Strange. A part of me rings like a bell when I hear the water running over these crystals.
    Naja: Wonder if you could make musical instruments from Brand crystals. If the Brand scar could sing like a harp.
    Naja: Hm. Wind would have to be right.

    Perhaps one of the keys to defeating Kralk will be using his own Brand and/or Branded against him in Tyria and the Mists (why would Naja just off-handedly wonder out loud what it would sound like in the Mists if not to foreshadow something now that Kralk is in the Mists?) with a resonance like a tuning fork creates sound when hit on a proper surface. It would be ironic for Kralk, the selfish dragon who desires to turn everything in his image and destroying what he can't have, to be disoriented and weakened by his very own Brand with the sweet sound of music before we face him in a final assault.

    The Dredge are adept with sonic/vibrational weaponry. Episode 5 will be taking place in a region filled with Dredge...

  • Kossage.9072Kossage.9072 Member ✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    The Dredge are adept with sonic/vibrational weaponry. Episode 5 will be taking place in a region filled with Dredge...

    Yes! It would be pretty nice to meet old dredge allies from Frostgorge Sound (Rebel Isaak) and Sorrow's Embrace (Koptev and Rasolov) and see how they're faring. Although their revolution to topple the corrupt Moletariate didn't quite work in the long run despite War Minister Shukov's downfall as shown by dredge aligning with Scarlet and the Flame Legion in the Molten Alliance despite female dredge's protests a year later, perhaps the revolutionaries (and hopefully some female dredge too because I've long been waiting to meet them!) relocated elsewhere, claiming parts of Deldrimor Front for their collective to continue the revolution from there. I'd love to see such allied dredge work and improve on the late Barron and Fero's Psi-Lance which just so happens to resemble a tuning fork and was quite effective against the Risen in the reclamation of Claw Island. We could even try using a version of the late Vyascheslav's Sonic Vaporizer to both cause damage to Brand-infested areas and lure Branded to it. :)

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    I absolutely HATE dredge! I hate their machinery and locations, everything about them. And that's the only thing I actually hate about this episode... so far...

    I hope they will be just an addition, and any chapter wont be focused on them.

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    @Arden.7480 said:
    I absolutely HATE dredge! I hate their machinery and locations, everything about them. And that's the only thing I actually hate about this episode... so far...

    I hope they will be just an addition, and any chapter wont be focused on them.

    Dredge is a joke about the imaginary about the former Soviet Union in times of cold war.

    Would be fun and trollish if the key to kill Kralkatorrik is in the hands of a "slow" races like Dredge or Qaggans.

    About Dredge again, i agree the aestetics of their locations and stuff sucks a lot. the Dredge areas is the most boring stuff when im doing world map completion.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    What can I say? Seriously, a cool trailer, not showing too much or not enough. I'm satisfied, want to discover the map tomorrow.
    But agree about the fact of spookiness in the trailer: Kralk body or lieutenant one at the end was cool but apart that very flat. The only one that gave me shivers was the A bug in the system trailer which was speaking of asuras wearing black and red uniform and some awakened mummies. Here I don't know, the scenery looks beautiful apart that can't say anything. I'm expecting a more stunning trailer for the last episode.

    +++In creative mood. New Engie Elite spec' DONE, Housing DONE, New asuran expansion DONE, Designing a new lounge "current", New GameMode DONE

  • The
    map
    is
    massive

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Castigator.3470 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I still think ArenaNet are making a massive mistake if they're going to go the route of "Oh you needed MacGuffin all along" that we're going to recover in less than a single episode, most likely, the episode after we got that disastrous vision that specifically focused on allies, not MacGuffins.

    That could indicate that no matter our allies, we need some item, or power, that counters Kralkatorrik's insane AoE lightning breath. Which would be in line with the vision as well. Remember, visions are warnings as much as they are meant to inform. In this case bringing additional flies to the flamethrower just results in more burnt flies.
    However, if we can field some "dirty"tricks, we may be able to turn this around. That may include luring Kralky into an area where we can reflect his attacks back at him, finding areas where magic is far less powerful, forcing Kralkatorrik to bleed magic back into the environment, or just dropping a mountain onto the dragon to break his back.
    Because let's face it, if you got the vision that an assault on Kralkatorrik will fail, why would you go and assault him anyway?

    Arrogance?.. Pride?.. Faith?.. No choice?
    There are quite a few reasons to challenge the Dragon.. Glint, Snaff and Eir all pushed for this encounter to take place despite Aurines predictions.
    The commander and their allies too seem to think that the time is right and they can win this battle despite having no plan other than.. replace Kralk with Aurine.

    That's one of the biggest reasons I am both expecting and absolutely wanting this battle to be a complete disaster.
    We've killed 2 dragons so far with some making it up as we go solution to actually killing them.. for Mordremoth we literally came up with a plan right on his doorstep.. and Zhaitan was nothing more than look big dragon shoot it with canons till it dies..
    If Kralkatorrik falls by another random plan we pull out of our butts last minute from nowhere I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed.. I know I will be.

    I'm far more interested in loosing this fight and having living world 5 deal with the fallout of our futile assault on the dragon and recovering from the consequences whatever they are.
    Kralkatorrik already has a win over Destiny's Edge.. be nice to experience a similar defeat with Dragons Watch.
    After all.. nothing bigs up an elder Dragons threat level than loosing to one.. and Kralkatorrik definitely has the biggest baddest reputation out of all of them right now.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    and Zhaitan was nothing more than look big dragon shoot it with canons till it dies..

    Ignoring the entire Orr campaign where we cut it off from its food sources and intel gathering minions leaving it nearly powerless and blind before we fought it.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    The
    map
    is
    massive

    How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands?

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • @Fenom.9457 said:
    How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands?

    Several sites/groups were given permission by Anet to release videos of the content today, though they weren't given access to the final instance so no one knows how it ends.

    And no, the map doesn't touch the Desert Highlands. It does touch Labyrinthine cliffs though.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    and Zhaitan was nothing more than look big dragon shoot it with canons till it dies..

    Ignoring the entire Orr campaign where we cut it off from its food sources and intel gathering minions leaving it nearly powerless and blind before we fought it.

    Blind and hungry maybe but certainly not powerless.
    Zhaitan was unfortuantely the victim of time constraints and technical limitations.. all bravado but little threat which is why the entire fight was more or less kill minions and watch cutscenes.
    Many of us look back on Zhaitan with disappointment but forgive it due to the early days of the game and all that.

    Mordremoth on the other hand was far better handled mechanically, visually.. he really did feel like an Elder Dragon in the Dragon Stand Meta.
    But he was a little disappointing in the story mostly down to how we work out his weakness, formulate a plan and destroy him all in the final story instance while we've already started the final assault against him..
    That was just ridiculous.. and a lot of players criticized it.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands?

    Several sites/groups were given permission by Anet to release videos of the content today, though they weren't given access to the final instance so no one knows how it ends.

    And no, the map doesn't touch the Desert Highlands. It does touch Labyrinthine cliffs though.

    Uh oh, that gap between highlands and new map doesn’t look nearly big enough for another map... does it give anyone else incredibly intense OCD at the mere thought of not one day mapping every last inch of the map?

    Edit: also yeah, that’s fricking monstrous!

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • @Fenom.9457 said:
    Uh oh, that gap between highlands and new map doesn’t look nearly big enough for another map... does it give anyone else incredibly intense OCD at the mere thought of not one day mapping every last inch of the map?

    Edit: also yeah, that’s fricking monstrous!

    Doesn't bother me TBH. That ship sailed back at like launch or w/e.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    and Zhaitan was nothing more than look big dragon shoot it with canons till it dies..

    Ignoring the entire Orr campaign where we cut it off from its food sources and intel gathering minions leaving it nearly powerless and blind before we fought it.

    Blind and hungry maybe but certainly not powerless.
    Zhaitan was unfortuantely the victim of time constraints and technical limitations.. all bravado but little threat which is why the entire fight was more or less kill minions and watch cutscenes.
    Many of us look back on Zhaitan with disappointment but forgive it due to the early days of the game and all that.

    Mordremoth on the other hand was far better handled mechanically, visually.. he really did feel like an Elder Dragon in the Dragon Stand Meta.
    But he was a little disappointing in the story mostly down to how we work out his weakness, formulate a plan and destroy him all in the final story instance while we've already started the final assault against him..
    That was just ridiculous.. and a lot of players criticized it.

    I mean, "how well fed they are" for Elder Dragons is far more directly linked to how strong they are. It was more than just killing Eyes and Mouths though. We also cut off Zhaitan's connection to the five temples, each teeming with magic, as well as the Artesian Waters, which seems to be one of the strongest magical hotposts in Central Tyria. In addition to that, we learn in Arah Seer path that the Six Gods had weakened Zhaitan while it slept by siphoning magic from it to empower the Bloodstone when they shattered it into five pieces. On top of that, the weaponry used against Zhaitan was based off of Gorr's, Snaff's/Kudu's, and the Tequatl Megalaser research on Elder Dragon vulnerability, specifically focused towards risen/Zhaitan magic.

    I agree that the Zhaitan fight was disappointing, but in all honesty, other than Anet shoehorning in "unique weaknesses" later on and having to asspull a weakness for Zhaitan ("over-reliance on specialized minions caused a direct vulnerability to Zhaitan by killing said specialized minions") the fact Zhaitan was so weak actually was explained right away, both in the presentation up until, as well as in the immediate aftermath after. And that explanation wasn't too bad.

    Mordremoth's weakness and counterplanning presentation, I also agree, was horrible. That fight was more a win of luck than anything, as the Commander just rushed in without a plan and happened to rush in at the same time the Pact was futilely trying to kill Mordremoth.

    Hopefully ArenaNet learned from their mistake, but unless we're facing Kralkatorrik off in this episode, I don't think a loss is necessary or even a good thing. I mean, we already had two confrontations with Kralkatorrik where we lost in some manner - first at the end of Path of Fire, where our actions strengthened Kralkatorrik, and then at the end of episode 4 where we lost Blish.

    Given the trailer, I'm expecting another face-to-face confrontation with Kralkatorrik in this episode, but not as the main battle. And after four face-to-face meetings, having the main confrontation be a total loss would just be sour. It'd be like if we caught up to Balthazar during Beast of War, and he was scripted to win after all. We fought him four times already by that point, with a stalemate, a victory, and two losses, but still get forced to lose a third time. Would that honestly feel good to you?

    Sure as hell wouldn't to me. And I'm a fan of bittersweet stories where the hero dies in the end.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands?

    Several sites/groups were given permission by Anet to release videos of the content today, though they weren't given access to the final instance so no one knows how it ends.

    And no, the map doesn't touch the Desert Highlands. It does touch Labyrinthine cliffs though.

    Uh oh, that gap between highlands and new map doesn’t look nearly big enough for another map... does it give anyone else incredibly intense OCD at the mere thought of not one day mapping every last inch of the map?

    Edit: also yeah, that’s fricking monstrous!

    About as big of a gap as between Domain of Vabbi and... any other map, wouldn't you say?

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands?

    Several sites/groups were given permission by Anet to release videos of the content today, though they weren't given access to the final instance so no one knows how it ends.

    And no, the map doesn't touch the Desert Highlands. It does touch Labyrinthine cliffs though.

    Uh oh, that gap between highlands and new map doesn’t look nearly big enough for another map... does it give anyone else incredibly intense OCD at the mere thought of not one day mapping every last inch of the map?

    Edit: also yeah, that’s fricking monstrous!

    About as big of a gap as between Domain of Vabbi and... any other map, wouldn't you say?

    Hmm maybe so. I always wanted that gap around vabbi to be a raid map

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    and Zhaitan was nothing more than look big dragon shoot it with canons till it dies..

    Ignoring the entire Orr campaign where we cut it off from its food sources and intel gathering minions leaving it nearly powerless and blind before we fought it.

    Blind and hungry maybe but certainly not powerless.
    Zhaitan was unfortuantely the victim of time constraints and technical limitations.. all bravado but little threat which is why the entire fight was more or less kill minions and watch cutscenes.
    Many of us look back on Zhaitan with disappointment but forgive it due to the early days of the game and all that.

    Mordremoth on the other hand was far better handled mechanically, visually.. he really did feel like an Elder Dragon in the Dragon Stand Meta.
    But he was a little disappointing in the story mostly down to how we work out his weakness, formulate a plan and destroy him all in the final story instance while we've already started the final assault against him..
    That was just ridiculous.. and a lot of players criticized it.

    I mean, "how well fed they are" for Elder Dragons is far more directly linked to how strong they are. It was more than just killing Eyes and Mouths though. We also cut off Zhaitan's connection to the five temples, each teeming with magic, as well as the Artesian Waters, which seems to be one of the strongest magical hotposts in Central Tyria. In addition to that, we learn in Arah Seer path that the Six Gods had weakened Zhaitan while it slept by siphoning magic from it to empower the Bloodstone when they shattered it into five pieces. On top of that, the weaponry used against Zhaitan was based off of Gorr's, Snaff's/Kudu's, and the Tequatl Megalaser research on Elder Dragon vulnerability, specifically focused towards risen/Zhaitan magic.

    I agree that the Zhaitan fight was disappointing, but in all honesty, other than Anet shoehorning in "unique weaknesses" later on and having to asspull a weakness for Zhaitan ("over-reliance on specialized minions caused a direct vulnerability to Zhaitan by killing said specialized minions") the fact Zhaitan was so weak actually was explained right away, both in the presentation up until, as well as in the immediate aftermath after. And that explanation wasn't too bad.

    Mordremoth's weakness and counterplanning presentation, I also agree, was horrible. That fight was more a win of luck than anything, as the Commander just rushed in without a plan and happened to rush in at the same time the Pact was futilely trying to kill Mordremoth.

    Hopefully ArenaNet learned from their mistake, but unless we're facing Kralkatorrik off in this episode, I don't think a loss is necessary or even a good thing. I mean, we already had two confrontations with Kralkatorrik where we lost in some manner - first at the end of Path of Fire, where our actions strengthened Kralkatorrik, and then at the end of episode 4 where we lost Blish.

    Given the trailer, I'm expecting another face-to-face confrontation with Kralkatorrik in this episode, but not as the main battle. And after four face-to-face meetings, having the main confrontation be a total loss would just be sour. It'd be like if we caught up to Balthazar during Beast of War, and he was scripted to win after all. We fought him four times already by that point, with a stalemate, a victory, and two losses, but still get forced to lose a third time. Would that honestly feel good to you?

    Sure as hell wouldn't to me. And I'm a fan of bittersweet stories where the hero dies in the end.

    Well better than killing an Elder Dragon in the living world rather than an expansion.
    Should he fall here an now it diminishes the need for expanions in my opinion, they'll more or less be restricted to big mechanical additions rather than epic story conclusions as they should be.
    Killing dragons in living world pretty much gives me the impression that expansions are unnecessary and while it's good to have big epic story moments in the living world I've always felt that these moments are at their best when they set up expansions thus getting us players very exited about the upcoming expansion.
    Taking such important players off the field for expansion content such as Elder Dragons doesn't inspire much confidence as to this games lifespan.
    Many of us tend to feel that with 4 dragons remaining we've at least 4 expansions to look forward to in the future.. thus 4 new elite specs per class and 4 batches of new masteries, content dumps and maps etc but if they can be thrown out in the living world then that holds no weight any longer and makes us wonder after 7 years.. how much longer we'll get to enjoy new story content.
    What if 2 years from now all the dragons are gone.. and only 1 new expansion has been released.. that would be a colossal disappointment in my opinion.

    They need to be saved for expansions imo or the very concept of Elder dragons being the main antagonists and biggest threats in Gw2 is just wasted.

    There's much more potential in a loss right now than a win.
    The fallout of Kralkatorrik could be huge.. one example being Aurine being branded thus sending us seeking out the Forgotten finally bringing them to the world in order to bring Aurine back just like they did with her mother which was a huge moment in Guildwars History that we never got to witness and still holds a lot of mystery.
    A loss could also see us forced to flee the continent into Cantha or a new region entirely and open up so much potential there while we wait for Aurine to grow and develop the power she needs to defeat Kralkatorrik which will lead to an even bigger encounter with him later on in an expansion.

    If we kill him now we loose him forever as a threat and gain an Elder Dragon ally who could potentially act as our get out and win card every time we're in trouble.
    Either that or because she'll be OP and godlike she'll have to be written out such as going to sleep which will suck and deprive us of a popular character that still has so much to offer.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Where the hell id this thing? Should already be live

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    How do you know that? Does the art connect it to desert highlands?

    Several sites/groups were given permission by Anet to release videos of the content today, though they weren't given access to the final instance so no one knows how it ends.

    And no, the map doesn't touch the Desert Highlands. It does touch Labyrinthine cliffs though.

    wooooosh, if they did maintain the same scale as Mount Maelstron, this is gonna be massively big(i hope so). its seems twice the size of timberline falls.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Well better than killing an Elder Dragon in the living world rather than an expansion.
    Should he fall here an now it diminishes the need for expanions in my opinion, they'll more or less be restricted to big mechanical additions rather than epic story conclusions as they should be.
    Killing dragons in living world pretty much gives me the impression that expansions are unnecessary and while it's good to have big epic story moments in the living world I've always felt that these moments are at their best when they set up expansions thus getting us players very exited about the upcoming expansion.

    To be fair, ArenaNet never had interest in expansions. They wanted to do nothing but continuous Living World updates from the get go. They just didn't have a good system, and needed an expansion to reignite interest and income.

    And besides that, ArenaNet already confirmed months ago that "big events" won't be restricted to expansions anymore, starting with Season 4/5. So it's pretty much guaranteed that we'll kill Kralkatorrik before whenever expansion 3 is.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Many of us tend to feel that with 4 dragons remaining we've at least 4 expansions to look forward to in the future.. thus 4 new elite specs per class and 4 batches of new masteries, content dumps and maps etc but if they can be thrown out in the living world then that holds no weight any longer and makes us wonder after 7 years.. how much longer we'll get to enjoy new story content.

    You're the first I've ever seen suggest this. Most folks I've seen, in fact, stated they're tired of the "one dragon = one paid release" style since Mordremoth. And you're making it sound like the game cannot, and will not, have focuses other than the Elder Dragons. Despite the fact our previous expansion was about something other than an Elder Dragon.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    What if 2 years from now all the dragons are gone.. and only 1 new expansion has been released.. that would be a colossal disappointment in my opinion.

    Depends on how its done, in all honesty. Two years from now would mean Season 5 and, most likely, both expansion 3 and Season 6 are done (or nearly so). Expansion 4 could be on the horizon, and by "gone", it could simply mean "Primordus and Jormag are still asleep", meaning they could come back, but on top of that, with the game still going, we're doing new plots, not a constant return to Glint's Legacy over, and over, and over again as we deal with dragon, and dragon, and dragon again. And to me, that would be better than "one expansion for every elder dragon".

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The fallout of Kralkatorrik could be huge..

    The fallout of Kralkatorrik winning is a game over, pure and simple. The plot has been established to the point that if we do not kill Kralkatorrik ASAP, there is no living for anyone in the world. Not even fleeing to Cantha would be an option.

    Having us survive a crushing defeat to Kralkatorrik would undermine EVERYTHING about episode 4's revelations.

    And that would be worse than if we killed Kralkatorrik in All or Nothing.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Well better than killing an Elder Dragon in the living world rather than an expansion.
    Should he fall here an now it diminishes the need for expanions in my opinion, they'll more or less be restricted to big mechanical additions rather than epic story conclusions as they should be.
    Killing dragons in living world pretty much gives me the impression that expansions are unnecessary and while it's good to have big epic story moments in the living world I've always felt that these moments are at their best when they set up expansions thus getting us players very exited about the upcoming expansion.

    To be fair, ArenaNet never had interest in expansions. They wanted to do nothing but continuous Living World updates from the get go. They just didn't have a good system, and needed an expansion to reignite interest and income.

    Expansions are important for income but more importantly for big content dumps which is something this community has been asking for since HoT..
    One of the biggest complaints is that the expansions don't deliver enough content.
    Living world being free is great but Anet should take advantage of expansions for both financial gain and community demand.
    If there's one thing I see often is Gw2 fans wanting to support this game financially.. through gem store.. expansions.. hell I even see people literally asking for an optional sub fee.. seriously.

    And besides that, ArenaNet already confirmed months ago that "big events" won't be restricted to expansions anymore, starting with Season 4/5. So it's pretty much guaranteed that we'll kill Kralkatorrik before whenever expansion 3 is.

    True and we can have that although it's still smart to save certain antagonists deaths for expansions.
    Not so much because they can't do it in the living world but because it's a waste to do it in the living world.
    The dragons can and should be part of the living world and I for one would love to have multiple encounters with them.
    I would certainly have loved to have had a few scraps with Zhaitan and Mordremoth before finally putting them down.. and I don't mean just their minions but them too.
    Kralk has been delivering on this since Path of Fire and I've very much enjoyed each encounter with him directly even when not directly fighting him.. (escaping the mists was very fun)

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Many of us tend to feel that with 4 dragons remaining we've at least 4 expansions to look forward to in the future.. thus 4 new elite specs per class and 4 batches of new masteries, content dumps and maps etc but if they can be thrown out in the living world then that holds no weight any longer and makes us wonder after 7 years.. how much longer we'll get to enjoy new story content.

    You're the first I've ever seen suggest this. Most folks I've seen, in fact, stated they're tired of the "one dragon = one paid release" style since Mordremoth. And you're making it sound like the game cannot, and will not, have focuses other than the Elder Dragons. Despite the fact our previous expansion was about something other than an Elder Dragon.

    I've spoken to many others who feel a dragons death in the living world would be a waste.
    We can have many lesser antagonists as great villains for the living world.. just look at Joko.
    But an expansion doesn't need to focus on killing a dragon either like PoF didn't although Kralkatorrik was important to that story too.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    What if 2 years from now all the dragons are gone.. and only 1 new expansion has been released.. that would be a colossal disappointment in my opinion.

    Depends on how its done, in all honesty. Two years from now would mean Season 5 and, most likely, both expansion 3 and Season 6 are done (or nearly so). Expansion 4 could be on the horizon, and by "gone", it could simply mean "Primordus and Jormag are still asleep", meaning they could come back, but on top of that, with the game still going, we're doing new plots, not a constant return to Glint's Legacy over, and over, and over again as we deal with dragon, and dragon, and dragon again. And to me, that would be better than "one expansion for every elder dragon".

    I expect the third expansion will be out by then.. I highly doubt Anet will do another living world directly after season 6.. people will likely be asking why no expansion? if that's the case.
    The dragons can only die if they're replacable.. the story has made this very clear and Kralkatorrik is the only one we can even do that with right now.
    Glint's legacy will end with his death.. and I expect Primordus and Jormag are off the table right now because there is no plan to deal with them (the main reason why Kralkatorrik is the only one who's active)
    Glint is only related to one dragon as is Aurine so I am more than willing to bet that neither of them will be relevant when dealing with the other 3 dragons.
    I expect the Norn will be the main focus when we deal with Jormag.. and the Asura will be the main focus with Primordus (maybe Tengu too)
    Sea Dragon I expect will be saved for Canthan based content.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The fallout of Kralkatorrik could be huge..

    The fallout of Kralkatorrik winning is a game over, pure and simple. The plot has been established to the point that if we do not kill Kralkatorrik ASAP, there is no living for anyone in the world. Not even fleeing to Cantha would be an option.

    Having us survive a crushing defeat to Kralkatorrik would undermine EVERYTHING about episode 4's revelations.

    And that would be worse than if we killed Kralkatorrik in All or Nothing.

    Depends on how the new story content ends.. (I expect we both know by now but I don't want to spoil anything for anyone)
    This is my main point though.. the way they've bigged up Kralkatorrik has been fantastic and his threat level has been on an entirely different level to any of the other dragons.
    To loose with so much on the line is far more interesting than destroying him.
    Kralkatorrik has been potrayed as unstoppable and nothing will solidify that feeling more than suffering a massive defeat to him.
    That's the main reason I want to loose this battle and experience the many different consequences it could bring.
    One of the biggest being how our reputation could suffer and the commander is thrown into a world where instead of being praised and admired by most as we have been for the entire game since the personal story more or less.. we're now held responsible for failing and potentially dooming the world..
    Joko himself stated that we're not the hero the world thinks we are and in many way's we're the bad guy.
    It'll be good to see that come around and have many in the world feel the same way about us.. everyone loves a good redemption story right?
    And having suffered such a huge loss to Kralkatorrik and enduring the hardships of it.. it will make his eventual death all the more satisfying.
    That's why I want to loose.. and that's why I feel killing him now would be a waste.. there's so much more story potential if we loose this battle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Expansions are important for income but more importantly for big content dumps which is something this community has been asking for since HoT..
    One of the biggest complaints is that the expansions don't deliver enough content.
    Living world being free is great but Anet should take advantage of expansions for both financial gain and community demand.
    If there's one thing I see often is Gw2 fans wanting to support this game financially.. through gem store.. expansions.. hell I even see people literally asking for an optional sub fee.. seriously.

    Ironically enough, I feel confident in believing the content quantity is exactly why we're going from Season 4 to Season 5. And the plot demands going after Kralkatorrik now, even before they hyped him in A Star to Guide Us.

    All that to say, just because we may fell an Elder Dragon in a Living World episode, doesn't mean expansion become any less important or prominent in their plots.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not so much because they can't do it in the living world but because it's a waste to do it in the living world.

    See, I don't get this argument. Why is it a waste? You say "because it doesn't feel right". My only reaction is this. And never anything else.

    You say living world having big events would lessen expansions. But would you say HoT or PoF were lessened by the fact that a major player hub got totally wrecked in the living world? I would argue no.

    The idea seems to stem from the belief that the living world releases are "lesser" to an expansion. But as I see it, the only difference - especially now that ArenaNet is no longer nicely compacting the episodes with their own neat little tidy conclusion (just look at the ending of Episodes 4; technically 5 too) - is that an expansion allows you to play through the whole plot in one singular go, instead of forcing you to wait bit by bit.

    And to me, that's not reason enough to argue they are at all lesser.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    I expect the third expansion will be out by then.. I highly doubt Anet will do another living world directly after season 6.. people will likely be asking why no expansion? if that's the case.
    The dragons can only die if they're replacable.. the story has made this very clear and Kralkatorrik is the only one we can even do that with right now.
    Glint's legacy will end with his death.. and I expect Primordus and Jormag are off the table right now because there is no plan to deal with them (the main reason why Kralkatorrik is the only one who's active)
    Glint is only related to one dragon as is Aurine so I am more than willing to bet that neither of them will be relevant when dealing with the other 3 dragons.
    I expect the Norn will be the main focus when we deal with Jormag.. and the Asura will be the main focus with Primordus (maybe Tengu too)
    Sea Dragon I expect will be saved for Canthan based content.

    Well, I got multiple disagreements here, but this segment is off-topic. If you want to continue, feel free to PM me. I wouldn't mind tossing theories and interpretations and hopes and dreams back and forth.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Depends on how the new story content ends.. (I expect we both know by now but I don't want to spoil anything for anyone)
    This is my main point though.. the way they've bigged up Kralkatorrik has been fantastic and his threat level has been on an entirely different level to any of the other dragons.
    To loose with so much on the line is far more interesting than destroying him.
    Kralkatorrik has been potrayed as unstoppable and nothing will solidify that feeling more than suffering a massive defeat to him.
    That's the main reason I want to loose this battle and experience the many different consequences it could bring.
    One of the biggest being how our reputation could suffer and the commander is thrown into a world where instead of being praised and admired by most as we have been for the entire game since the personal story more or less.. we're now held responsible for failing and potentially dooming the world..
    Joko himself stated that we're not the hero the world thinks we are and in many way's we're the bad guy.
    It'll be good to see that come around and have many in the world feel the same way about us.. everyone loves a good redemption story right?
    And having suffered such a huge loss to Kralkatorrik and enduring the hardships of it.. it will make his eventual death all the more satisfying.
    That's why I want to loose.. and that's why I feel killing him now would be a waste.. there's so much more story potential if we loose this battle.

    I'll leave a link to this spoiler thread for my thoughts about the ending. But I don't consider it the loss you're wanting it to be per se, because I doubt we'll be seeing that "having to recover while Kralkatorrik rampages for an entire season and expansion". I am still 110% certain we'll kill him in the next episode (unless ArenaNet pulls a fast one and makes the season seven episodes long; if so, then we'll kill him in episode 7).

    Honestly, if ArenaNet were to leave Kralkatorrik gaining power for several episodes still, let alone an entire season an expansion, all for us to kill him, then the build up would be like the battle against Lonai in A Bug in the System - starts fun, becomes epic, then turns silly due to over-the-topness. It'd be like bringing in a world-ender, and killing him with a bb gun, because at that level of hyping him up, there should be nothing capable of stopping him short of reversing time itself (and by that point, Kralkatorrik would have no doubt reached the Rift and have access to all time and space anyways so even that wouldn't be possible).

    Also, Joko is a big kitten liar and his very reasoning for "why people so easily believed his taking credit for killing Elder Dragons" was total BS, as great as the voicing for the speech was. But his speech was just the recent in a long line of ArenaNet habituation "the hero saves the day and it's better than if the bad guys won, but the world is still worse off than where it was when the plot began, in large thanks to the hero's actions."

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not so much because they can't do it in the living world but because it's a waste to do it in the living world.

    See, I don't get this argument. Why is it a waste? You say "because it doesn't feel right". My only reaction is this. And never anything else.

    You say living world having big events would lessen expansions. But would you say HoT or PoF were lessened by the fact that a major player hub got totally wrecked in the living world? I would argue no.

    That's not what I said.. Living world can have big events and should have them.. but the death of something like an Elder Dragon or God is by far one of the biggest and most impactful things that can possibly happen in the game in terms of lore.
    These kinds of moments are so important that they both need and deserve to be as big and as epic as they possibly can be.. and I don't believe the living world is the right place for that.
    Do you think Dragons Stand could have been a living world release?.. or Vabbi and the final showdown with Balthazar?.. I'm going to say no.
    Joko's demise despite being great could have been even better if we'd actually had more of the moon fortress to explore.. I believe I even heard that the devs originally planned that location to be much bigger and more explorable but due to time constraints had to limit that area.
    Living world just has too many restrictions.. even now when it's better than it's ever been it is still restricted by time a lot more than expansions are.
    Should we ever fell a dragon in the living world it will never be big and as epic as it could have been in an expansion.. of that I firmly believe.
    But thankfully Gw2 has proven with Balthazar, Joko and Kralkatorrik that we can have multiple enjoyable encounters with these villains before putting them down so I am completely ok if not excited by having some of these encounters go badly and actually loosing them.

    The idea seems to stem from the belief that the living world releases are "lesser" to an expansion. But as I see it, the only difference - especially now that ArenaNet is no longer nicely compacting the episodes with their own neat little tidy conclusion (just look at the ending of Episodes 4; technically 5 too) - is that an expansion allows you to play through the whole plot in one singular go, instead of forcing you to wait bit by bit.

    And to me, that's not reason enough to argue they are at all lesser.

    Living world is far more time restricted than expansions.. sure we can have a chapter delayed every now and then and I do support the devs when they do this but overall this does make the living world lesser for it.
    I don't particularly like saying they are lesser though.. the living world has been phenominal these last few years specially compared to the first year but expansions are still better to have for those big content dumps and our continued support of this game.
    I don't enjoy waiting months for new content I literally complete on the day it's released.. and it's because most of us do this that new living world maps often end up with grind based rewards/content which were very common in season 2 and 3.
    Unbound Magic.. the various map currencies and Karma sinks.. these were not particularly recieved well after the first few maps and it made them feel quite grindy and the reward costs feel quite excessive.
    There's only so many times most can run the same events over and over before they start getting bored and wanting to leave and never come back to that map again.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Not so much because they can't do it in the living world but because it's a waste to do it in the living world.

    See, I don't get this argument. Why is it a waste? You say "because it doesn't feel right". My only reaction is this. And never anything else.

    You say living world having big events would lessen expansions. But would you say HoT or PoF were lessened by the fact that a major player hub got totally wrecked in the living world? I would argue no.

    That's not what I said.. Living world can have big events and should have them.. but the death of something like an Elder Dragon or God is by far one of the biggest and most impactful things that can possibly happen in the game in terms of lore.
    These kinds of moments are so important that they both need and deserve to be as big and as epic as they possibly can be.. and I don't believe the living world is the right place for that.

    As I said before.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Do you think Dragons Stand could have been a living world release?.. or Vabbi and the final showdown with Balthazar?.. I'm going to say no.

    I mean, Dragon's Stand was basically a lane variant of Silverwastes in design, and Vabbi has nothing special going for it, and of course I think the final confrontations that happen in those maps can be a living world release, so I'm going to give a full resounding yes.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Joko's demise despite being great could have been even better if we'd actually had more of the moon fortress to explore.. I believe I even heard that the devs originally planned that location to be much bigger and more explorable but due to time constraints had to limit that area.

    Did we play the same Episode 3? Joko's death was pathetically cliched and ultimately a gag death.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Living world just has too many restrictions.. even now when it's better than it's ever been it is still restricted by time a lot more than expansions are.

    The only restrictions it has, is time and duration. Expansions have that same issue, just a larger scale of it. I mean, HoT suffered from them completely. LW releases will from time to time, and sometimes they won't (like I'd argue Ep4 and 5 didn't seem to suffer from any restrictions), but the same will go towards expansions. What will prevent these restrictions from effecting releases is not the size of the release, but ArenaNet's scope for the release, and their planning capabilities.

    To the rest, we're just going in circles. Ultimately, like I said, it falls down to opinion. Not fact like you're presenting.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Do you think Dragons Stand could have been a living world release?.. or Vabbi and the final showdown with Balthazar?.. I'm going to say no.

    Judging by the latest episodes, sure. The final fight of episode five might have been easier mechanically than the last battle in PoF, but there was a lot more going on in the presentation. Expansions are basically clusters of LS content bundled with features they believe people will pay for (mounts, e-specs, etc.)

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Do you think Dragons Stand could have been a living world release?.. or Vabbi and the final showdown with Balthazar?.. I'm going to say no.

    I mean, Dragon's Stand was basically a lane variant of Silverwastes in design, and Vabbi has nothing special going for it, and of course I think the final confrontations that happen in those maps can be a living world release, so I'm going to give a full resounding yes.

    Significantly bigger than Silverwastes not to mention a significantly bigger and more complex boss at the end than a flower that you can't even attack directly.
    Sorry but the Vinewrath battle is nothing compared to Mordremoth.. sure there are similarities in the map design/concept but I firmly believe that a map like Dragonstand would never have been possible as a living world release back then... none of the HoT maps would have been possible as living world.
    PoF map designs are much simpler but there's not really that much you can do with a desert in all honesty.. thier size was far more important than their complexity due to mounts.
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Joko's demise despite being great could have been even better if we'd actually had more of the moon fortress to explore.. I believe I even heard that the devs originally planned that location to be much bigger and more explorable but due to time constraints had to limit that area.

    Did we play the same Episode 3? Joko's death was pathetically cliched and ultimately a gag death.

    They could have dragged him out longer by making us loose to him a few more times but I thought you didn't like that idea..
    Joko wasn't around for that long admittedly but he was fantastic.
    Sure he brought some comedy to the game but that's just who he is, his death was one of the best cutscene segments in the game thus far and final fight with him was pretty enjoyable as well.
    I think a lot of people would agree that they prefer him as a character over Balthazar or any of the other humanoid villians like Caudicus and Lazarus.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Living world just has too many restrictions.. even now when it's better than it's ever been it is still restricted by time a lot more than expansions are.

    The only restrictions it has, is time and duration. Expansions have that same issue, just a larger scale of it. I mean, HoT suffered from them completely. LW releases will from time to time, and sometimes they won't (like I'd argue Ep4 and 5 didn't seem to suffer from any restrictions), but the same will go towards expansions. What will prevent these restrictions from effecting releases is not the size of the release, but ArenaNet's scope for the release, and their planning capabilities.

    To the rest, we're just going in circles. Ultimately, like I said, it falls down to opinion. Not fact like you're presenting.

    Well Episode 5 took almost a whole month longer to release, part due to the holiday events but I expect they needed that extra development time considering the content we got (which was very good)
    The big difference between an expansion and living world is that up until an expansions release the entire expansion load of content can be tweaked and improved where needed before the release.
    Living world cannot once an episode has been released and the Moon Fortress is a good example of this.
    Fans asked if the devs would revisit the Gandara map and improve the meta event there and the explorable area of the moon fortress and I recall they said something like focusing on new content rather than going back and reworking disapointing elements of previous releases.
    It's a statement they regularly make when conversations about old content come up such as personal story and living world 1 reworks..
    Personally this is one of the biggest issues I have with the Gw2 dev teams and I find that attitude to be pretty disappointing in all honesty.
    I'm fine with having new content delayed if the benefit is fixing and improving old content from time to time.. I really dislike when older content feels abandoned just because the devs want to push something new out asap.
    Expansions are handled far better in this regard as there is a bigger time frame for improvements and fixes between the release of an expansion and the start of a new living world season.
    For the living world.. once a new chapter releases the previous one pretty much gets brushed aside like it doesn't really matter anymore and the devs rarely ever go back to that content again even if it has a lot of potential.
    Add to that due to the nature of a living world release no new release can force the player to return to a previous release's location and map.. I don't need to tell anyone that because of this a significantly large amount of iconic locations in the Guildwars Franchise have become utterly useless after being used only once..
    Thunderhead keep and the Forge, Sunspear refuge, Moon fortress, Gandara, Bloodstone Fen, Istan... We'll never be able to have new additional content in these iconic places because of the living world and how it works.. and that is severely disappointing to a huge fan like me.
    That does not apply in the same way to expansions which for every living world season before the next expanion new story content in said living world episodes can utalize any location in any of the expansion maps at any time.. we've seen this multiple times in Season 4 already because the developers know that everyone playing this living world content will need to have those expansion maps.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    Significantly bigger than Silverwastes not to mention a significantly bigger and more complex boss at the end than a flower that you can't even attack directly.
    Sorry but the Vinewrath battle is nothing compared to Mordremoth.. sure there are similarities in the map design/concept but I firmly believe that a map like Dragonstand would never have been possible as a living world release back then... none of the HoT maps would have been possible as living world.
    PoF map designs are much simpler but there's not really that much you can do with a desert in all honesty.. thier size was far more important than their complexity due to mounts.
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

    I agree that SW pales to DS, but Season 4 maps dwarf SW and are now on par with HoT and core maps in terms of size. Amala, Inquest Specimen Chamber, and Death-Branded Shatterer are all three more complex than Vinewrath and even Octovine and Chak Gerent.

    But SW proves that they can create a map that focuses almost solely on its meta while providing an episodic story. And that's what I was getting at.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    They could have dragged him out longer by making us loose to him a few more times but I thought you didn't like that idea..
    Joko wasn't around for that long admittedly but he was fantastic.
    Sure he brought some comedy to the game but that's just who he is, his death was one of the best cutscene segments in the game thus far and final fight with him was pretty enjoyable as well.
    I think a lot of people would agree that they prefer him as a character over Balthazar or any of the other humanoid villians like Caudicus and Lazarus.

    You got the opposite. I prefered he was the focus of all of Season 4's six episodes, and that we confronted him and lost or walked away thinking he was dead when he wasn't.

    But I was talking about his actual death. The "Aurene tackles him from an impossible location out of nowhere for a quick shock gag monologue-interrupting joke" death. A death that was very unbefitting Joko, especially after his "I won't fight you personally" speech in Rata Primus, where he... lures us into fighting him personally...

    All that, after utterly devastatingly destroying the build up about the Scarab Plague with the illogical BS of "it only infects humans, oh and the Commander is immune even if they're human".

    Fans asked if the devs would revisit the Gandara map and improve the meta event there and the explorable area of the moon fortress and I recall they said something like focusing on new content rather than going back and reworking disapointing elements of previous releases.
    It's a statement they regularly make when conversations about old content come up such as personal story and living world 1 reworks..
    Personally this is one of the biggest issues I have with the Gw2 dev teams and I find that attitude to be pretty disappointing in all honesty.

    This is an issue with the developer's philosophy, not big events being in the LW.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Significantly bigger than Silverwastes not to mention a significantly bigger and more complex boss at the end than a flower that you can't even attack directly.
    Sorry but the Vinewrath battle is nothing compared to Mordremoth.. sure there are similarities in the map design/concept but I firmly believe that a map like Dragonstand would never have been possible as a living world release back then... none of the HoT maps would have been possible as living world.
    PoF map designs are much simpler but there's not really that much you can do with a desert in all honesty.. thier size was far more important than their complexity due to mounts.
    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

    I agree that SW pales to DS, but Season 4 maps dwarf SW and are now on par with HoT and core maps in terms of size. Amala, Inquest Specimen Chamber, and Death-Branded Shatterer are all three more complex than Vinewrath and even Octovine and Chak Gerent.

    But SW proves that they can create a map that focuses almost solely on its meta while providing an episodic story. And that's what I was getting at.

    Yeah they can.. though with the map sizes growing so much it's probably not as easy to do it.
    Designing a large map around the same concept of pushing into one giant battle with a huge opponant is far more complicated than what we're currently getting in living world.
    Specially if that boss is to be largely animated which it will probably need to be.
    Death Branded Shatterer was great and all but it was just a reskin of the original model and reusing most if not all of the old models animations too.
    If they had had to create that world boss from scratch I expect it would have taken a lot longer to get that patch out.. or they might not have bothered putting the boss in at all.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    They could have dragged him out longer by making us loose to him a few more times but I thought you didn't like that idea..
    Joko wasn't around for that long admittedly but he was fantastic.
    Sure he brought some comedy to the game but that's just who he is, his death was one of the best cutscene segments in the game thus far and final fight with him was pretty enjoyable as well.
    I think a lot of people would agree that they prefer him as a character over Balthazar or any of the other humanoid villians like Caudicus and Lazarus.

    You got the opposite. I prefered he was the focus of all of Season 4's six episodes, and that we confronted him and lost or walked away thinking he was dead when he wasn't.

    I would have been ok with that as well.

    But I was talking about his actual death. The "Aurene tackles him from an impossible location out of nowhere for a quick shock gag monologue-interrupting joke" death. A death that was very unbefitting Joko, especially after his "I won't fight you personally" speech in Rata Primus, where he... lures us into fighting him personally...

    All that, after utterly devastatingly destroying the build up about the Scarab Plague with the illogical BS of "it only infects humans, oh and the Commander is immune even if they're human".

    She came in through the open windows behind him and ambushed him.
    I actually enjoyed that moment, Joko's final cutscene is one of the best in the game imo specially the speech up until his demise.
    Joko was many things.. and his joker-esque personality is what made him so entertaining.
    It's rather fitting his death was funny considering he was a comical villain in general.

    The commander was immune to it because we had died in PoF..
    Although the idea it only effects humans isn't that bad, considering his targets for unleashing the plague were mostly human targets (Elona, Kryta etc)
    Conquering the human kingdoms and reviving them into awakened would have been enough for Joko to have gained a dominant presence in Tyria and an army big enough to wipe out the Asura, Sylvari and Norn without much effort, and adding those races to his ranks as well would probably have been enough to wipe out the Charr too.

    Fans asked if the devs would revisit the Gandara map and improve the meta event there and the explorable area of the moon fortress and I recall they said something like focusing on new content rather than going back and reworking disapointing elements of previous releases.
    It's a statement they regularly make when conversations about old content come up such as personal story and living world 1 reworks..
    Personally this is one of the biggest issues I have with the Gw2 dev teams and I find that attitude to be pretty disappointing in all honesty.

    This is an issue with the developer's philosophy, not big events being in the LW.

    It's both.. as I said the Gandara meta could have been bigger and better if the devs had delayed the patch to get it done right which they should have done.
    But they didn't and now that part of the game will always be lacking as a result and the location could be regarded as wasted.

    If you ask me what the devs should be doing with living world maps is making the maps always availabe.. just the maps.
    By all means lock the story behind timed living world but when new maps are added they should be added to the core game for everyone to be able to access through a teleport to friend even if they don't have the living world chapter that introduced the map.
    If they did this then one of the living worlds biggest restrictions (only using a map location once for one living world release) wouldn't be a problem anymore and the developers could use any living world map location as many times as they wish for new story content which is something that's only done with expansion maps and core maps.. because those are the only ones the developers can guarantee people playing their current living world content have access to..
    They can't very well have a story instance in All or Nothing take us back to Jahai or Istan because they cannot guarantee that everyone playing All or Nothing has Daybreak and A Star to Guide us unlocked on their account.. and the last thing they want is people playing current content being locked out of the story because they missed a living world release a few months back.
    That is a big problem for them which is why they never re-use living world maps and it's one of the living worlds biggest restrictions in it's current form.
    Making just the maps available to everyone who owns the core game would fix that problem though.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    She came in through the open windows behind him and ambushed him.
    I actually enjoyed that moment, Joko's final cutscene is one of the best in the game imo specially the speech up until his demise.
    Joko was many things.. and his joker-esque personality is what made him so entertaining.
    It's rather fitting his death was funny considering he was a comical villain in general.

    The camera was literally facing those open windows. Her angle comes from the side, to our right, which is a big ol' wall with a bunch of tar. His death wasn't funny, it was a poor use of the sudden-death-during-speech gag, that wasn't really funny.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The commander was immune to it because we had died in PoF..
    Although the idea it only effects humans isn't that bad, considering his targets for unleashing the plague were mostly human targets (Elona, Kryta etc)
    Conquering the human kingdoms and reviving them into awakened would have been enough for Joko to have gained a dominant presence in Tyria and an army big enough to wipe out the Asura, Sylvari and Norn without much effort, and adding those races to his ranks as well would probably have been enough to wipe out the Charr too.

    The immunity coming out of literally freaking nowhere. Resurrection wasn't super rare centuries ago, there should have been a few that had been resurrected during the plague.

    And the idea the Scarab Plague, which are native parasitic insects in Elona, only being capable of incubating in a race that is foreign to the world, is bad. Firstly, how did they even evolve, let alone come out of nowhere. Secondly, no parasite is capable of incubating in only one species - some prefer one species over another, yes, but none are incapable of living off of only one species. Thirdly, and this is the worst part of it, devs confirmed that only humans were effected because they come from another world, so why are non-Elonian races like norn and asura also immune since they'd never get exposure?

    I can understand hylek and centaurs and harpies being immune. Hell, it'd make sense for Elonian humans to be immune as they could develop a resistance from Istan's previous exposure. I could even buy charr being immune due to the subtle hints of their presence in Elona in GW1 via the Awakened Defilers. But that argument being used and norn and asura being immune don't make any sense.

    Plus, it completely devastatingly destroyed all that build up with Joko having a plague that could wipe out all of Tyria and Elona if he wanted it to. It turned what was literally THE most horrific and devastating moments in GW's history, literally THE most devastating non-bacterial plague, and made it practically a non-threatening non-issue.

    Next, let's bring back the Afflicted and threaten to expose it to the heart of Lion's Arch, but oh, it only affects Canthan humans.

    It's both.. as I said the Gandara meta could have been bigger and better if the devs had delayed the patch to get it done right which they should have done.
    But they didn't and now that part of the game will always be lacking as a result and the location could be regarded as wasted.

    Except Episode 3 was delayed. It did get more time. But they didn't expand Gandara, not because of lack of time, but likely because they had no intention to expand it more than what we got.

    If you ask me what the devs should be doing with living world maps is making the maps always availabe.. just the maps.
    By all means lock the story behind timed living world but when new maps are added they should be added to the core game for everyone to be able to access through a teleport to friend even if they don't have the living world chapter that introduced the map.

    I agree. It's one of the better things from Season 2. Maps were available to all, and were expanded over time when need-be.

    Season 3 maps should all be available to those who own HoT, imo. And Season 4 maps available to all who own PoF. And the maps could be expanded when the story requests such.

    However, I do not think this at all is related to, or relevant with, killing massive villains like Kralkatorrik in the LW plots.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Plus, it completely devastatingly destroyed all that build up with Joko having a plague that could wipe out all of Tyria and Elona if he wanted it to. It turned what was literally THE most horrific and devastating moments in GW's history, literally THE most devastating non-bacterial plague, and made it practically a non-threatening non-issue.

    I mean, the beetles still voraciously killed non-humans. Ep 2 showed that, and PCs of any race take damage from them. They just weren't as successful at reproducing. Technically, it means they're a threat to anyone in an area populated by humans.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    I think I cracked this "out of nowhere bit".

    Aurene can use a stealth mode, remember her in Precocious Aurene?

    Also Caithe must have taught her some stealthy and sneaky tricks, because as the commander says: Caithe raised her.

    Seek, and you shall find.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    She came in through the open windows behind him and ambushed him.
    I actually enjoyed that moment, Joko's final cutscene is one of the best in the game imo specially the speech up until his demise.
    Joko was many things.. and his joker-esque personality is what made him so entertaining.
    It's rather fitting his death was funny considering he was a comical villain in general.

    The camera was literally facing those open windows. Her angle comes from the side, to our right, which is a big ol' wall with a bunch of tar. His death wasn't funny, it was a poor use of the sudden-death-during-speech gag, that wasn't really funny.

    Each to their own there.. I personally found it funny for two reasons.
    1. I wasn't expecting it.
    2. I enjoy it when the bad guy dies in a horrible way ^^ and what better way to go than being ripped apart and eaten by a dragon.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The commander was immune to it because we had died in PoF..
    Although the idea it only effects humans isn't that bad, considering his targets for unleashing the plague were mostly human targets (Elona, Kryta etc)
    Conquering the human kingdoms and reviving them into awakened would have been enough for Joko to have gained a dominant presence in Tyria and an army big enough to wipe out the Asura, Sylvari and Norn without much effort, and adding those races to his ranks as well would probably have been enough to wipe out the Charr too.

    The immunity coming out of literally freaking nowhere. Resurrection wasn't super rare centuries ago, there should have been a few that had been resurrected during the plague.

    That was different.. that was people being revived by the living through magic bestowed by the gods.. that magic no longer exists and the gods have left the world.
    We came back through a different method.. apparently we're the only one who's done so.
    For the most part resurection is a mechanic not something to take too seriously in the lore.
    But if you want a reason as to why victims of the plague were not revived well the most likely reason is that their corpses still carried the plague scarabs and they would have died again and again each time they were revived not to mention those who revived them would likely have been infected too.
    The game explained our immunity through our death.. the scarabs don't infect the dead only the living which raises a few questions as to whether we are actually alive or some kind of undead.

    And the idea the Scarab Plague, which are native parasitic insects in Elona, only being capable of incubating in a race that is foreign to the world, is bad. Firstly, how did they even evolve, let alone come out of nowhere. Secondly, no parasite is capable of incubating in only one species - some prefer one species over another, yes, but none are incapable of living off of only one species. Thirdly, and this is the worst part of it, devs confirmed that only humans were effected because they come from another world, so why are non-Elonian races like norn and asura also immune since they'd never get exposure?

    Wish I could answer that but there is very little information about the original plague so unfortuantely it's all speculation.
    My best guess is that the plague isn't native to Tyria but rather something that was brought with the original humans, passed down and evolved over time or something from a foreign land that crossed into humans and became what it was or perhaps something that was artificially created by a namelss villain of the past..
    Suffice to say I cannot answer this.. nobody can until the developers create a more fleshed out backstory for it.

    Plus, it completely devastatingly destroyed all that build up with Joko having a plague that could wipe out all of Tyria and Elona if he wanted it to. It turned what was literally THE most horrific and devastating moments in GW's history, literally THE most devastating non-bacterial plague, and made it practically a non-threatening non-issue.

    >
    Well we stopped it.. sure it probably would have been a far more interesting story had Joko been successful and caused an epidemic but aside from massive amounts of dead NPC's we don't really care about that wouldn't have been worth doing tbh.
    Plagues are kinda dull as a big story tbh.. I much prefer unstopable monsters.

    Next, let's bring back the Afflicted and threaten to expose it to the heart of Lion's Arch, but oh, it only affects Canthan humans.

    The afflicted were not contagious nor were they a plague technically.. they were created, mutated into monsters by Shiro.
    I'd be glad to see them again in Guildwars but since Shiro is dead it's highly unlikely.

    It's both.. as I said the Gandara meta could have been bigger and better if the devs had delayed the patch to get it done right which they should have done.
    But they didn't and now that part of the game will always be lacking as a result and the location could be regarded as wasted.

    Except Episode 3 was delayed. It did get more time. But they didn't expand Gandara, not because of lack of time, but likely because they had no intention to expand it more than what we got.

    I'd put my money on time more than lack of intention.
    There's only so long they can delay a release.. and when it comes to a delay they have to give priority to what's most important.
    I doubt improving Meta events are at the top of that last.

  • @Teratus.2859 said:
    That was different.. that was people being revived by the living through magic bestowed by the gods.. that magic no longer exists and the gods have left the world.
    We came back through a different method.. apparently we're the only one who's done so.
    For the most part resurection is a mechanic not something to take too seriously in the lore.
    But if you want a reason as to why victims of the plague were not revived well the most likely reason is that their corpses still carried the plague scarabs and they would have died again and again each time they were revived not to mention those who revived them would likely have been infected too.
    The game explained our immunity through our death.. the scarabs don't infect the dead only the living which raises a few questions as to whether we are actually alive or some kind of undead.

    The way we resurrected sounds a lot like how Shiro resurrected, though in slightly different means, and sounds like how the Flame Legion planned on resurrecting Gaheron. It all dumbs down to "excess of life force to jumpstart living again". That's probably how the monk and ritualist spells worked too, even if different than "kill a demon who's been gorging on souls to release all that life force to imbue your corpse with life."

    I wasn't talking about the victims of the plague, btw, but rather people before the plague hit. Surely someone at somepoint in Istan was resurrected before the plague hit, if it was so common around GW1's time that the fact adventurers can mess up resurrection and be fine is canon lore (Droknar's Forge explorable area dialogue).

    And there was no need to explain our immunity at all, imo.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Well we stopped it.. sure it probably would have been a far more interesting story had Joko been successful and caused an epidemic but aside from massive amounts of dead NPC's we don't really care about that wouldn't have been worth doing tbh.
    Plagues are kinda dull as a big story tbh.. I much prefer unstopable monsters.

    We'd stop it regardless, I'm sure, if not just contain it to a singular small zone, but that doesn't mean the drama and impact of needing to stop it was destroyed by the fact that "oh, it's not that harmful after all".

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    The afflicted were not contagious nor were they a plague technically.. they were created, mutated into monsters by Shiro.
    I'd be glad to see them again in Guildwars but since Shiro is dead it's highly unlikely.

    Well, miasma was a thing that spread it. It was both, really.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    I wasn't talking about the victims of the plague, btw, but rather people before the plague hit. Surely someone at somepoint in Istan was resurrected before the plague hit, if it was so common around GW1's time that the fact adventurers can mess up resurrection and be fine is canon lore (Droknar's Forge explorable area dialogue).

    Who's to say they hadn't? We've never heard that everyone on Istan died, just that the population was spooked enough to abandon the island. In fact, didn't we learn about the fact that we were immune from either Nahlah or Dahlah? They'd have had to learn that from somewhere.

    Granted, all sorts of other bits of the expanded plague lore have issues, up to and including beetles being able to smell and recognize the Domain of the Lost.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

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