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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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  • 2 weeks later...

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Cragga the Eighty Third.6015" said:The worst fractal experience I've ever had (again, this was Tier 1, bear that in mind) started when the 'leader' informed us that he was running a DPS meter and didn't want any of us slacking off spamming the '1' key.

Should have left immediately. It takes a special kind of noob to run a dps meter in T1s to threaten people with kicks.

DPS meters don't work in T1, actually spamming 1 would likely have higher dps, and the mobs are dead 1-2 skills into a rotation, so spam 1 or spam randomly wasting cooldowns.

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  • 3 years later...
On 12/30/2018 at 4:39 PM, Evellynn Capone.6584 said:

This Thread is a Never Ending Story.

The elitism is coming again, like a black cloud that consumes and destroys one's daily reset completion times.

It used to be general brainwashed meta elitism.

Then after power creep, people calmed down a bit and began accepting the presence of slightly altered builds so long as everyone had DWD, the comp was right, and people were showing that they knew mechanics.

But lately a new trend of what I call "bored elitism" is beginning to surface. It would seem that people are getting bored now that power creep has made T4 CMs too easy and are looking for reasons to tweak groups in weird unnecessary experimental ways that aren't even meta listed, for what they believe will be some kind of slight DPS enhancement.

Twice in the past week I have encountered CM groups where one person is trying to organize 5 players for what he believes will be a "more efficient DPS clear" by suggesting that players alter build structures, traits, skills, even weapons, or even someone's class because his class is listed as 1k less benchmark than some other class. If the people don't swap and do exactly as the elite theory-craft suggests, they get vote kicked.

All the while I'm thinking: "Why in the hell are these people concerned with taking an extra 10-15 minutes to organize something that theoretically may enhance group DPS by some slight margin of 1% to 2%?" I mean seriously though, with the power creep, these T4 CMs aren't exactly difficult anymore for one thing. For another thing, tagging an extra 15 minute organize time onto an already 45 minute run is obnoxious, especially when finding that one super specific build at best would lower the 45 minute run down to maybe 42 minutes, if the theory craft even works. The only thing I can think of is that people are getting bored and looking for reasons to "feel" elite again.

What I think is happening is that people become addicted to being able to "feel" elite. It's a way to get their daily ego high. When a game becomes too easy and the large majority of players are able to complete the most difficult content, mediocre players become not that different than elite players and elite players become not so different than mediocre players, during the LFG process that is. Elite players begin to miss that "feeling" of having a real reason to segregate themselves off from the mediocre so they can stand amongst a small demographic of existing player base and say: "We are the ones who are the best, and it matters because only the best can complete this content." When content gets too easy, there is no reason to do this anymore because at say 99 CM, having a mediocre Firebrand over an elite Firebrand makes no difference other than maybe a slight drop or increase in DPS value that may speed up or slow down a run by a couple of minutes. It no longer matters the difference of a fast or slow run or completion in general. So players begin looking for reasons to segregate, to draw lines, to place themselves on the other side of the fence to be able to claim "we are the best" because the game is only fun if they are getting that ego high.

This is now being delivered in the form of strange highly unnecessary party time organizations in T4 CMs that wastes a lot more time than it saves. I get it, I really do. People are bored and looking for ways to tweak T4 CM fractal groups. Sounds like a fun idea to be honest with you. But is it necessary? No it is not, T4 CMs are easy nowadays. Is it saving time? No, it really isn't when you go 10+ minutes deep into extra organize vote kick times. Is public LFG the right place to be doing this? <- Right here is the real question. In my opinion, this kind of elite number crunching theory craft would be more properly placed amongst a guild's organizational efforts. In my opinion, public LFG is more a place for general party formation like: "Ok we got the QB, Alac, 3x DPS, everyone has DWD, let's do it and get it done".  In my opinion, public LFG is an inefficient platform for forming super experimental top speed clear time formations.

There are more and more groups leaning towards this kind of unnecessary organize time. I say that public LFG is the wrong place for this because even if they accept me into their groups, I just want to get my fractals done for the night in 45 minutes. I do not value or appreciate the extra 15+ minute wait times that kick my completion times up to 60+ minutes, just so a couple of guys in the group can feel self-gratifying ego highs as they see DPS benchmarks go up 1k.

~ Just a PSA of where fractal elitism is today.

 

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51 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Twice in the past week I have encountered CM groups where one person is trying to organize 5 players for what he believes will be a "more efficient DPS clear" by suggesting that players alter build structures, traits, skills, even weapons, or even someone's class because his class is listed as 1k less benchmark than some other class. If the people don't swap and do exactly as the elite theory-craft suggests, they get vote kicked.

Very curious wording... 
Suggesting build change is now elitism?
Also... how can 1 person kick people who don't want to adjust without voting majority?

54 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

What I think is happening is that people become addicted to being able to "feel" elite. It's a way to get their daily ego high.

What I think is happening is that you are trying to spin a different story because you got kicked a people of times from CM groups. 

55 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

having a mediocre Firebrand over an elite Firebrand makes no difference other than maybe a slight drop or increase in DPS value that may speed up or slow down a run by a couple of minutes.

Some people run CMs + T4s every single day. This 10-20 min you do not care about is something they would. The "elite firebrand" may bring double the dps of the mediocre one. 

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57 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

And the answer to that is use your friend/guild list when you got enough people on it that run fractals form the party of 5 from there and go do it.

I get where you're coming from but I feel like it's kind of backwards.

When I want to perform God tier speed clears, I do it with static groups, filled with players whom I know will want to cooperate, whom I know will be able to keep up. This is much easier to organize with guild/contacts list.

When I want to just get my fractals done for the night, I use the public LFG because my statics aren't online and I want to form a party quickly and just get it done.

I think that the very large majority of players would agree that this is generally how it goes.

Keep in mind I am not referencing the general expectations of "Seeking an all DWD with Quick/Alac/DPS". No, this new "bored elitism" is coming with really unusual strict ideas born purely of theory craft. It's just kind of weird man. It's akin to if I wanted to map clear Core Tyria and I was attempting to form some kind of meta-squad for maximum clear. <- This would be really cool to see in a stream. But to actually put something together like that, it would be way easier with guild/contact list or even formation or in-stream event organization. Trying to do that through the LFG, would be naively silly and disappointing for the players who wanted to join the clear who were not allowed. It would be a douchey thing to do, sort of like going to a public park and posting a "community run event" and then telling some people they weren't allowed to participate because they weren't amongst the top 3% fastest runners in town.

Which brings me to the final point, probably most important point, which is that if you are going to seek such strange elite formation through the LFG, make sure the LFG post details what you are doing, otherwise people assume the group is a general "Seeking all DWD with Quick/Alac/DPS" when that is essentially what it is labeled as. And also, it is always rude to join other people's LFGs and try hard to turn it into bored elitism, even though the LFG was originally labeled "Seeking all DWD with Quick/Alac/DPS" or possibly even lower expectations such as "CMs just know mechanics".

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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44 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Suggesting build change is now elitism?

If you are correcting an obvious flaw in someone's build, that's one thing, and not always falling under elitism. It really depends on how you deliver that suggestion or how you force it and if you are going to vote kick someone over it or not. That's all general elitism. I am not talking about general elitism. I am talking about bored elitism, which is what happens when elitists start trying to get more elite than other elitists. It's like elitists amongst elitists, elitism on top of elitism. When players are getting assy over someone standing 20 range from the center of the party during tidal bargains instead of being 0 range from the center of the party, or when someone doesn't perform a skip quickly enough.

At that point, I don't see how anyone could argue to justify such ridiculous expectations & behavior while public LFGing. I mean, it's a public LFG man, if they are seriously seeking God tier performance, they may want to consider a stronger platform for organization.

Honestly I'm getting tired of joining groups and waiting around for 10-15 minutes while they attempt to find that perfect 5th, all the while I'm realizing "I'd be half done with this night's fractals if I had just joined the lower req group". There has been quite a few times in the last month that I've waited like that and then decided to leave the group to join a different group because they were just wasting too much time.

It's w/e man. If it's your thing, cool. But it isn't my thing.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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2 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If you are correcting an obvious flaw in someone's build, that's one thing, and not always falling under elitism. It really depends on how you deliver that suggestion or how you force it and if you are going to vote kick someone over it or not. That's all general elitism. I am not talking about general elitism. I am talking about bored elitism, which is what happens when elitists start trying to get more elite than other elitists. It's like elitists amongst elitists, elitism on top of elitism. When players are getting assy over someone standing 20 range from the center of the party during tidal bargains instead of being 0 range from the center of the party, or when someone doesn't perform a skip quickly enough.

At that point, I don't see how anyone could argue to justify such ridiculous expectations & behavior while LFGing. I mean, it's a public LFG man, come on now.

Could you give me an example for what build would they look for in the LFG? What does take 10-15min to organize specifically? 

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I've been doing CMs+T4 for months now and this has literally never ever happened to me. Seems like a weird coincidence for you I guess. No one has ever suggested I tweak my meta scourge build or swap to a more DPSy class or anything. People just clear the content and I do the dps im roughly supposed to and then no one ever complains.

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I don’t see why it matters if they’re doing it for a group that they created. It’s within their right to dictate requirements for it just as it’s within others rights to reject them and not join. As always, if you have an issue with someone’s requirements, you can always create your own group. 

I’ll also point out that this elitism, which you are applying to anyone that doesn’t follow your own standard on how they should act, existed well before raids. Of course labeling it as raid elitism, rather than just elitism, does make use of the negative connotations that some people have against raids in order to artificially bolster your position. 

Edited by mythical.6315
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19 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

I’ll also point out that this elitism, which you are applying to anyone that doesn’t follow your own standard on how they should act, existed well before raids. 

 

Time machine back to 2012/2013 looking at the dungeon LFG (the one outisde of the game as well as in game once added):

- AC p1-3, no necro, no ranger

- CoF p1, 10k ap, no necro, no ranger

- HoW p2, 4 warrior, 1 mesmer

- CoF p1+2, exp, 5k ap, ping gear

 

Yup, no elitism before raids there. /s

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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46 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Woah those dailies are real hard man 😕 I guess they are right in doing that...

If they want to spend the extra time to increase their chances of having a smooth run then that’s their choice. If you disagree with it then you’re more than welcome to create your own group. 

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14 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Woah those dailies are real hard man 😕 I guess they are right in doing that...

Yes, they are sooo hard that instead of creating your own party, you gonna post someones lfg and whine on forum. As Mythical said, you are free to create your own just as they have right to create their reqs. I would actually rather join them than join no kp run that will get me stuck on Thaumanova ooze or somewhere else. Live and let live.

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2 hours ago, Biziut.3594 said:

Yes, they are sooo hard that instead of creating your own party, you gonna post someones lfg and whine on forum. As Mythical said, you are free to create your own just as they have right to create their reqs. I would actually rather join them than join no kp run that will get me stuck on Thaumanova ooze or somewhere else. Live and let live.

I've joined daily runs, every day for an year and a half now, I've probably had like 10 runs total that were not smooth and the group died (most often, once in the entire run).

I don't post it to whine, I post it to laugh at the mentality of "high end pve players". But I guess you need all the help you can get with... hard endgame content.

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26 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I've joined daily runs, every day for an year and a half now, I've probably had like 10 runs total that were not smooth and the group died (most often, once in the entire run).

I don't post it to whine, I post it to laugh at the mentality of "high end pve players". But I guess you need all the help you can get with... hard endgame content.

Just to be clear here.

 

Are you making fun of people who are choosing to play the game a way they enjoy and are laughing at them because they could just do it the way you would want them doing it / the way you do it because you never have bad runs and it's easy for you...in a thread about the " raid over elite" being the ones who are toxic? 

 

 

Edited by Sigmoid.7082
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2 minutes ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Are you making fun of people who are choosing to play the game a way they enjoy

I'm laughing because I've seen every iteration of "prove that you've done this / you are overgeared for this otherwise you are not getting in" you can think of in WoW.  Gear score, achievements, titles, items, previous guilds, screenshots and so on. Yet the best groups I've ran with were the most chill ones.

Try to spin this as "enjoying the game" and "you don't have to do this" all you want, the LFG requirements are coming from wanting to be done as soon as possible, as easily as possible. No problem with "15K UFE CM ..." or "1000 LI wing X" groups (cause I'm not a pve sweat). But when you see this in IBS strikes or daily fractals it starts getting absurd.

Anyhow this is how this looks to me from "outside". It makes me think of all the guilds going over your build and asking "but why didn't you take the talent that increases your HPS by 0.05% instead of ...". It gives me a really strong feeling of "no thanks, pass on going through all that again".  Seeing how they are adding a trainer mode to raids, doesn't look like I'm alone in that.

The reactions are gold too, makes me want to have nothing to do with your average GW2 pve players even more.

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31 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I'm laughing because I've seen every iteration of "prove that you've done this / you are overgeared for this otherwise you are not getting in" you can think of in WoW.  Gear score, achievements, titles, items, previous guilds, screenshots and so on. Yet the best groups I've ran with were the most chill ones.

Try to spin this as "enjoying the game" and "you don't have to do this" all you want, the LFG requirements are coming from wanting to be done as soon as possible, as easily as possible. No problem with "15K UFE CM ..." or "1000 LI wing X" groups (cause I'm not a pve sweat). But when you see this in IBS strikes or daily fractals it starts getting absurd.

Anyhow this is how this looks to me from "outside". It makes me think of all the guilds going over your build and asking "but why didn't you take the talent that increases your HPS by 0.05% instead of ...". It gives me a really strong feeling of "no thanks, pass on going through all that again".  Seeing how they are adding a trainer mode to raids, doesn't look like I'm alone in that.

The reactions are gold too, makes me want to have nothing to do with your average GW2 pve players even more.

Less than 1% of the playerbase actually has more than 15k UFE. The sad truth is that "your average" gw2 player is too bad to get that far. You say you've got no problem with people asking for 15k UFE but you call them PvE sweats. It's not 0,05% difference in dps. Your average gw2 player will do like 5k dps, while someone with 50k UFE might do 50-60k burst. Then 2 - 2,5min fight turns into 5-10min. And sometimes you won't even be able to clear it at all. 
If "the best groups" you've ran with are so chill I dare you to share logs with us 😉

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