Breakdown of mesmer defenses, and why it's absurd. - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Breakdown of mesmer defenses, and why it's absurd.

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  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi Mirage is not OP in PvP.

    It's the most OP spec the game has ever seen in WvW due to 3 things:

    • overpowered energy sigil (mirage benefits more than every other spec from endurance as the latter directly boosts the spec mechanic: a dodge lasts longer than on other specs (0.75s vs. 1s), the spec can attack while dodging, dodging gives increased utility on weapons)
    • overpowered endurance food (reason: see above!)
    • trailblazer/dire (it can apply a lot more pressure and do a lot more misplays until it needs to disengage)

    None of the mentioned things is available in PvP.

    Excuse me ,sir . What about DE and no malice oneshots w/o a warning?:d
    Also last time I had to play wvw without staff (viper armor) its been not OP as soulbeast/holos xD

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well ANet balanced deadeyes in a weird way: they become revealed almost everywhere. At least in EU their number decreased greatly.

    S/D core thief is the new thing here. They are all over the place. Can't kill you when you run some toughness and keep moving to avoid sword2 spam, but can't be killed either. I think that's okay. I always said: specs with unlimited mobility shouldn't be able to kill anything (at least when the target is not a complete idiot standing still waiting for the burst).

  • UfoCoffee.2084UfoCoffee.2084 Member ✭✭✭

    People have just given up and joined the mesmer brigade it seems. 4 mirage in most games I've played lately. Fun times.....

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi Mirage is not OP in PvP.

    It's the most OP spec the game has ever seen in WvW due to 3 things:

    • overpowered energy sigil (mirage benefits more than every other spec from endurance as the latter directly boosts the spec mechanic: a dodge lasts longer than on other specs (0.75s vs. 1s), the spec can attack while dodging, dodging gives increased utility on weapons)
    • overpowered endurance food (reason: see above!)
    • trailblazer/dire (it can apply a lot more pressure and do a lot more misplays until it needs to disengage)

    None of the mentioned things is available in PvP.

    Energy Sigils and Adventure runes are still a thing in sPvP..

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi Mirage is not OP in PvP.

    It's the most OP spec the game has ever seen in WvW due to 3 things:

    • overpowered energy sigil (mirage benefits more than every other spec from endurance as the latter directly boosts the spec mechanic: a dodge lasts longer than on other specs (0.75s vs. 1s), the spec can attack while dodging, dodging gives increased utility on weapons)
    • overpowered endurance food (reason: see above!)
    • trailblazer/dire (it can apply a lot more pressure and do a lot more misplays until it needs to disengage)

    None of the mentioned things is available in PvP.

    Energy Sigils and Adventure runes are still a thing in sPvP..

    They don't give the same amount of energy between the two game modes.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi Mirage is not OP in PvP.

    It's the most OP spec the game has ever seen in WvW due to 3 things:

    • overpowered energy sigil (mirage benefits more than every other spec from endurance as the latter directly boosts the spec mechanic: a dodge lasts longer than on other specs (0.75s vs. 1s), the spec can attack while dodging, dodging gives increased utility on weapons)
    • overpowered endurance food (reason: see above!)
    • trailblazer/dire (it can apply a lot more pressure and do a lot more misplays until it needs to disengage)

    None of the mentioned things is available in PvP.

    That doesn't even come close to what soulbeast is in WvW, you thought it was hard to kill in PvP? Well how's about 30s CD buffed dolyak stance and moa stance still 25s. You literally can't kill it at anything like equal skill with anything but DE one shot. Even mirage can't keep up with it and apply enough conditions to kill it now sword isn't used in a condi build.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi Mirage is not OP in PvP.

    It's the most OP spec the game has ever seen in WvW due to 3 things:

    • overpowered energy sigil (mirage benefits more than every other spec from endurance as the latter directly boosts the spec mechanic: a dodge lasts longer than on other specs (0.75s vs. 1s), the spec can attack while dodging, dodging gives increased utility on weapons)
    • overpowered endurance food (reason: see above!)
    • trailblazer/dire (it can apply a lot more pressure and do a lot more misplays until it needs to disengage)

    None of the mentioned things is available in PvP.

    Energy Sigils and Adventure runes are still a thing in sPvP..

    They don't give the same amount of energy between the two game modes.

    This. The energy gain of the rune and the sigil is cut in half in PvP (50% <> 25%). This and the missing +40% endurance gain food make a difference. Addressing the dodges due to nerfing vigor uptime was the correct idea in general, but it's almost irrelevant in WvW, because the sigil, rune and food have such a huge effect.

    WvW Side Note (as this is the PvP section): introducing superior cleansing options (sigil of cleansing = 3 condis) was also a good idea to adress these broken builds without doing specific spec nerfs (pretty smart when you think about it), but condi mirage is still a bit too forgiving in WvW. I can kill the ones below my skill level because they usually mess up after bombing me for a minute or so. That's why I would not say condi mirage is still a noob spec, but the decent ones are still immortal while doing too much damage (and they all run the whole set of sigil, food and rune).

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi Mirage is not OP in PvP.

    It's the most OP spec the game has ever seen in WvW due to 3 things:

    • overpowered energy sigil (mirage benefits more than every other spec from endurance as the latter directly boosts the spec mechanic: a dodge lasts longer than on other specs (0.75s vs. 1s), the spec can attack while dodging, dodging gives increased utility on weapons)
    • overpowered endurance food (reason: see above!)
    • trailblazer/dire (it can apply a lot more pressure and do a lot more misplays until it needs to disengage)

    None of the mentioned things is available in PvP.

    Energy Sigils and Adventure runes are still a thing in sPvP..

    They don't give the same amount of energy between the two game modes.

    This. The energy gain of the rune and the sigil is cut in half in PvP (50% <> 25%). This and the missing +40% endurance gain food make a difference. Addressing the dodges due to nerfing vigor uptime was the correct idea in general, but it's almost irrelevant in WvW, because the sigil, rune and food have such a huge effect.

    WvW Side Note (as this is the PvP section): introducing superior cleansing options (sigil of cleansing = 3 condis) was also a good idea to adress these broken builds without doing specific spec nerfs (pretty smart when you think about it), but condi mirage is still a bit to forgiving in WvW. I can kill the ones below my skill level, so I would not say condi mirage is still a noob spec, but the decent ones are still immortal while doing too much damage.

    Double cleansing will pretty much make you immune to almost all condition builds in WvW assuming you have another source. I run energy, cleansing on my rev and I don't fear any condition builds really, the power builds are far more lethal in WvW. You can get hit for half to all of your health from a lot of attacks and they're very spammable, you need perma protection and 2.8k+ armour otherwise you might as well be running full zerk because you'll die in the same amount of time.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Whilst current axe Mirage condi output is too oppressive and needs to be addressed, simply listing defence options (which can't actually all be in the same build) and then concluding something is "absurd" is, in itself, a bit absurd (there's loads of inaccuracies in the OP too). We've seen all this before - if you list every defence that even a single build can have, loads of builds looks broken (which they possibly all are but that's a whole different issue). It's just for other classes, it will be less evades and more blocks plus persistent healing and stability options.

    Honestly, it's just that condi output from the axe build. Power Mirage struggles to be as effective despite having access to the same defensive capabilities, which is a good indicator of this.

    Read the op, the exact build listed (with options for even more) is capable of everything listed under it.

    Power Mirage is just as strong as condi, able to nuke anyone from stealth 100-0. It's just a tiny bit harder to play and isn't as forgiving to new mesmers.

    Okay lets read OP together :

    scepter+focus or pistol. focus takes desperate decoy, pistol takes duelist's discipline.

    Focus ...focus...focus? Focus... Did he say focus ?

    I did say focus!

    5 blinds which are essentially 5 1s invuln frames

    New level of bs and absurd . It seems someone doesnt understand that deny only 1 attack and multiple attacking abilities wouldnt care about it ... How this can be 1s invul even ? Melee blind =/= invul from all range ,from every player and for 1 second. Lets meme train go on

    1s blind on most classes is the same as a 1s invuln. and since all of them are instant, you can use them to deny every big hit coming at you in melee range. Why a trait this strong doesn't have a cooldown is beyond me. how about every time necro goes into shroud it blinds 240 radius? Every burst skill applies blind? every ranger pet attack? every time an ele swaps attunements? Every time an engineer uses a toolbelt skill?

    any of those sound reasonable to blind with no icd? no? crazy, it's like it's a bad mechanic that should be removed.

    1s invuln on dodge with 100% vigor uptime

    It is an evade . There is no 100% vigor uptime ,its not cuccsmith or s/d thief that get 8s on every evade and he have waaaaaaaaaaaay more evades than everyone

    It is not an evade because ground effects don't interrupt it. you can run through warding lines, spectral wall, etc while using mirage cloak. The only difference between it and an invuln is that conditions continue to tick on you while it's active

    invuln on f4, 1-4s + 1-4 mirrors for an additional 1-4s.

    Who use it ? Why wouldnt you swap to chaos to reset such OP trait with the new trait? So imba , but still isn't used .(that distort recharge is abit absurd but w/e )

    Did you not look at the build, or do you not understand what desert distortion does? each of the clones you shatter for f4 distortion (which also grants mirage cloak with this trait, for some unknowable reason) becomes a mirage mirror. When touched, each grants you 1s of mirage cloak- which is a 1s invuln. 3 clones=4s distortion followed by 3 1s mirage cloaks. so i guess i'm wrong, it's a max of 7s of invuln that allows you to, and improves, attacks during it

    2 target breaks, at absolute worst 1s of people trying to see which is the real mesmer out of the pile of clones

    I see ambush only or there more target breaks? Or you mean stealth?Clones...they are limited and not a problem to see real mesmer,the only problem is how people rendered like DE with invisible DJ or laser from scepter 3 is invisible and all you see are big numbers instead of the animation

    Again, not 100% sure you even know how to play mesmer at this point. axes of symmetry and illusionary ambush.

    minimum 2 stealths, both instant. 3 with decoy, also instant. breaks target again.

    Stealth always broke target, nerf stealth

    brings our total to 4-5 target breaks

    scepter block, 4.75s CD

    Agree, lets nerf scepter to hell (im not joking)

    focus or pistol disable, diversion x1-4, torch disable, mantra disable x2 if chosen. hope you can upkeep stab 100% of the time!

    You are just listing every possible daze (and only 1 stun from pistol) .What was the point ?
    P.S Why are you emphasize on blinds from BD while eveyone running perma reflect ? Where is the riot to remove it entirely or at least set cd to 10 seconds ? Permanent immunity to projectiles without any effort, how about no ?

    You're right, why are there two master tier traits in dueling better than anyone else's grandmaster tier traits? mesmers can either take bd and win every match against a melee opponent, or take evasive mirror and win every match against ranged opponents?

    To answer your original post: Each of the defenses listed are available in that build, and it does make the build look broken. I'm glad you can see that and agree!

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    whoever is in charge of balance needs to be fired and replaced with someone that gives a kitten about the players. every fight with a mirage is a matter of staying alive for 20s while you are completely powerless to fight back, then they just run and reset at will. in 30s it starts all over again. this is obviously not fun to play against.

    While I agree with all the above you said. I absolutely don't with that specific part.

    Let me explain , the balancing team can only tweeks numbers : shorten that , increase CD this. They aren't allowed to even change a trait or just have to "ask for it" with the developper that designed the spec or bigger autority instance.

    All the "issues" you've listed are design issues. There for they come out of the developpers responsability ... not the balancing team. The balancing team is (was actually since the restructure) doing what they can with what they are allowed to do.

    If the guy that developped the mirage SPEC says , no I don't want the Dodge while stun to be removed on mirage... then it won't be removed or even touched.

    Thank you for the clarification. do you know if the balance team is able to place an icd on traits? because they can certainly do that and have chosen not to

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Whilst current axe Mirage condi output is too oppressive and needs to be addressed, simply listing defence options (which can't actually all be in the same build) and then concluding something is "absurd" is, in itself, a bit absurd (there's loads of inaccuracies in the OP too). We've seen all this before - if you list every defence that even a single build can have, loads of builds looks broken (which they possibly all are but that's a whole different issue). It's just for other classes, it will be less evades and more blocks plus persistent healing and stability options.

    Honestly, it's just that condi output from the axe build. Power Mirage struggles to be as effective despite having access to the same defensive capabilities, which is a good indicator of this.

    Read the op, the exact build listed (with options for even more) is capable of everything listed under it.

    Power Mirage is just as strong as condi, able to nuke anyone from stealth 100-0. It's just a tiny bit harder to play and isn't as forgiving to new mesmers.

    Okay lets read OP together :

    scepter+focus or pistol. focus takes desperate decoy, pistol takes duelist's discipline.

    Focus ...focus...focus? Focus... Did he say focus ?

    I did say focus!

    5 blinds which are essentially 5 1s invuln frames

    New level of bs and absurd . It seems someone doesnt understand that deny only 1 attack and multiple attacking abilities wouldnt care about it ... How this can be 1s invul even ? Melee blind =/= invul from all range ,from every player and for 1 second. Lets meme train go on

    1s blind on most classes is the same as a 1s invuln. and since all of them are instant, you can use them to deny every big hit coming at you in melee range. Why a trait this strong doesn't have a cooldown is beyond me. how about every time necro goes into shroud it blinds 240 radius? Every burst skill applies blind? every ranger pet attack? every time an ele swaps attunements? Every time an engineer uses a toolbelt skill?

    any of those sound reasonable to blind with no icd? no? crazy, it's like it's a bad mechanic that should be removed.

    They do techinically have a CD
    The CD is tied to shatters.
    And melee range.
    I don't know of anyone that would spam shatters one after the other just for the blind. Now Ineptitude.
    THAT needs to have an ICD.

    1s invuln on dodge with 100% vigor uptime

    It is an evade . There is no 100% vigor uptime ,its not cuccsmith or s/d thief that get 8s on every evade and he have waaaaaaaaaaaay more evades than everyone

    It is not an evade because ground effects don't interrupt it. you can run through warding lines, spectral wall, etc while using mirage cloak. The only difference between it and an invuln is that conditions continue to tick on you while it's active

    This claim is false. I just tested this. It is an Evade. You will be stopped by line of warding AND spectral ring. Tested both of them.
    Their is also no such thing as 100% vigor uptime as both sources of vigor have been nerfed to have short almost negligable durations.

    focus or pistol disable, diversion x1-4, torch disable, mantra disable x2 if chosen. hope you can upkeep stab 100% of the time!

    You are just listing every possible daze (and only 1 stun from pistol) .What was the point ?
    P.S Why are you emphasize on blinds from BD while eveyone running perma reflect ? Where is the riot to remove it entirely or at least set cd to 10 seconds ? Permanent immunity to projectiles without any effort, how about no ?

    Everything on that list could be one or more of these.
    Dodged, blocked, reflected, or blinded.

    Also...Focus?!
    torch or pistol would be much better in slot.
    with a staff or for power GS

    Focus would be great in an actual team comp I guess? But then you are relegated to team fighting.

    You're right, why are there two master tier traits in dueling better than anyone else's grandmaster tier traits? mesmers can either take bd and win every match against a melee opponent, or take evasive mirror and win every match against ranged opponents?

    To answer your original post: Each of the defenses listed are available in that build, and it does make the build look broken. I'm glad you can see that and agree!

    Both can't be run simultaniously is what he was getting at.
    Instead of doing a blanket list of possibilities it would have been better to pick one complete build.
    So far the post is just hypotheticals combining 5-6 utilities into one build. It's unrealistic, and unfortunately not enough people seem to know that. It's why Anet would be better ignoring this section all together and hiring people that have a better understanding of the system through experience.
    Also why would you NOT run blink?
    That has been a staple utility since release.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i never saw any of these mesmer l2p "pros" on anything else

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    Thief is my obsession.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    quietly filing nails

    Don't mind me, I'm just gonna count all the times where the articulated point of [Mirage has too much damage mitigation for the damage it can do on condi specs] is met by deflections to semantics arguments or cherry picking of non critical elements of how the premise was presented instead of actually arguing that the current state of its mitigation is balanced.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    quietly filing nails

    Don't mind me, I'm just gonna count all the times where the articulated point of [Mirage has too much damage mitigation for the damage it can do on condi specs] is met by deflections to semantics arguments or cherry picking of non critical elements of how the premise was presented instead of actually arguing that the current state of its mitigation is balanced.

    I agree condition mesmer is far too strong, it does too much damage (also scepter builds) but lets not pretend that every other class isn't doing far too much damage for how it traits either.

    I mean go through current builds and count how many take a damage trait line other than the elite. There's Rev, Mirage, Thief and Scourge. Honorable mention to Core guard but when picking 3 out of 5 traits it's very difficult to get a build that doesn't pick a damage trait line.

    I'm sure someone else will be eagerly rubbing their hands to post "but the elite spec is a damage spec! OMEGALUL!!" - Yeah OK so it's a damage spec, why is it that it not only brings damage but far too much in utility and survivability at the same time?

    Maybe these elite specs need a good looking at. Where they decide what the trait line is supposed to be, damage, support, defence etc. Then differentiate the traits and skills from there so you'd have power, condition, hybrid damage options and for support buffing, healing, damage mitigation as flavours etc.

    It's like this meme:

    "On a separate note, we've also reduced the power of mirages in PvP in order to lower their burst damage. We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." So they nerfed the charges on jaunt a defensive skill and barely touched the damage of mirage at all while in previous patches nerfing vigor uptime and defences.

    ANet is Anet.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Whilst current axe Mirage condi output is too oppressive and needs to be addressed, simply listing defence options (which can't actually all be in the same build) and then concluding something is "absurd" is, in itself, a bit absurd (there's loads of inaccuracies in the OP too). We've seen all this before - if you list every defence that even a single build can have, loads of builds looks broken (which they possibly all are but that's a whole different issue). It's just for other classes, it will be less evades and more blocks plus persistent healing and stability options.

    Honestly, it's just that condi output from the axe build. Power Mirage struggles to be as effective despite having access to the same defensive capabilities, which is a good indicator of this.

    Read the op, the exact build listed (with options for even more) is capable of everything listed under it.

    Power Mirage is just as strong as condi, able to nuke anyone from stealth 100-0. It's just a tiny bit harder to play and isn't as forgiving to new mesmers.

    Okay lets read OP together :

    scepter+focus or pistol. focus takes desperate decoy, pistol takes duelist's discipline.

    Focus ...focus...focus? Focus... Did he say focus ?

    I did say focus!

    5 blinds which are essentially 5 1s invuln frames

    New level of bs and absurd . It seems someone doesnt understand that deny only 1 attack and multiple attacking abilities wouldnt care about it ... How this can be 1s invul even ? Melee blind =/= invul from all range ,from every player and for 1 second. Lets meme train go on

    1s blind on most classes is the same as a 1s invuln. and since all of them are instant, you can use them to deny every big hit coming at you in melee range. Why a trait this strong doesn't have a cooldown is beyond me. how about every time necro goes into shroud it blinds 240 radius? Every burst skill applies blind? every ranger pet attack? every time an ele swaps attunements? Every time an engineer uses a toolbelt skill?

    any of those sound reasonable to blind with no icd? no? crazy, it's like it's a bad mechanic that should be removed.

    They do techinically have a CD
    The CD is tied to shatters.
    And melee range.
    I don't know of anyone that would spam shatters one after the other just for the blind. Now Ineptitude.
    THAT needs to have an ICD.

    1s invuln on dodge with 100% vigor uptime

    It is an evade . There is no 100% vigor uptime ,its not cuccsmith or s/d thief that get 8s on every evade and he have waaaaaaaaaaaay more evades than everyone

    It is not an evade because ground effects don't interrupt it. you can run through warding lines, spectral wall, etc while using mirage cloak. The only difference between it and an invuln is that conditions continue to tick on you while it's active

    This claim is false. I just tested this. It is an Evade. You will be stopped by line of warding AND spectral ring. Tested both of them.
    Their is also no such thing as 100% vigor uptime as both sources of vigor have been nerfed to have short almost negligable durations.

    focus or pistol disable, diversion x1-4, torch disable, mantra disable x2 if chosen. hope you can upkeep stab 100% of the time!

    You are just listing every possible daze (and only 1 stun from pistol) .What was the point ?
    P.S Why are you emphasize on blinds from BD while eveyone running perma reflect ? Where is the riot to remove it entirely or at least set cd to 10 seconds ? Permanent immunity to projectiles without any effort, how about no ?

    Everything on that list could be one or more of these.
    Dodged, blocked, reflected, or blinded.

    Also...Focus?!
    torch or pistol would be much better in slot.
    with a staff or for power GS

    Focus would be great in an actual team comp I guess? But then you are relegated to team fighting.

    You're right, why are there two master tier traits in dueling better than anyone else's grandmaster tier traits? mesmers can either take bd and win every match against a melee opponent, or take evasive mirror and win every match against ranged opponents?

    To answer your original post: Each of the defenses listed are available in that build, and it does make the build look broken. I'm glad you can see that and agree!

    Both can't be run simultaniously is what he was getting at.
    Instead of doing a blanket list of possibilities it would have been better to pick one complete build.
    So far the post is just hypotheticals combining 5-6 utilities into one build. It's unrealistic, and unfortunately not enough people seem to know that. It's why Anet would be better ignoring this section all together and hiring people that have a better understanding of the system through experience.
    Also why would you NOT run blink?
    That has been a staple utility since release.

    Take a look at the build, or read above. Everything listed is in that build, with options for even more.

    Try and land a melee cc on a mirage. Unless they're kitten awful, you cant. Evade, target break, or blind shuts down melee hard. Fun fact, you could take blink with that build too so you can get in melee range on any ranged attacker too for the same result, there's an open utility slot for it.

  • tinyreborn.1938tinyreborn.1938 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @tinyreborn.1938 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Whilst current axe Mirage condi output is too oppressive and needs to be addressed, simply listing defence options (which can't actually all be in the same build) and then concluding something is "absurd" is, in itself, a bit absurd (there's loads of inaccuracies in the OP too). We've seen all this before - if you list every defence that even a single build can have, loads of builds looks broken (which they possibly all are but that's a whole different issue). It's just for other classes, it will be less evades and more blocks plus persistent healing and stability options.

    Honestly, it's just that condi output from the axe build. Power Mirage struggles to be as effective despite having access to the same defensive capabilities, which is a good indicator of this.

    Read the op, the exact build listed (with options for even more) is capable of everything listed under it.

    Power Mirage is just as strong as condi, able to nuke anyone from stealth 100-0. It's just a tiny bit harder to play and isn't as forgiving to new mesmers.

    Okay lets read OP together :

    scepter+focus or pistol. focus takes desperate decoy, pistol takes duelist's discipline.

    Focus ...focus...focus? Focus... Did he say focus ?

    I did say focus!

    I still say :uninstall .

    5 blinds which are essentially 5 1s invuln frames

    New level of bs and absurd . It seems someone doesnt understand that deny only 1 attack and multiple attacking abilities wouldnt care about it ... How this can be 1s invul even ? Melee blind =/= invul from all range ,from every player and for 1 second. Lets meme train go on

    The most bs claims ever seen after 10000 range mirage thrusts nonstop . P/d thieves are god fo 1x1 because they infinite spammable shadowstop that make them invulnerable constantly! And blind well on necro make his entire team invulnerable for 5 seconds ,just as gs4 while he capture points! NERF NECRO MORE ! /s
    You gotta stop, you just looking even worse each time you try to interpret blind as 1s invul ,omegalul

    1s blind on most classes is the same as a 1s invuln. and since all of them are instant, you can use them to deny every big hit coming at you in melee range. Why a trait this strong doesn't have a cooldown is beyond me. how about every time necro goes into shroud it blinds 240 radius? Every burst skill applies blind? every ranger pet attack? every time an ele swaps attunements? Every time an engineer uses a toolbelt skill?

    See above.

    any of those sound reasonable to blind with no icd? no? crazy, it's like it's a bad mechanic that should be removed.

    Thief can spam it w/o cd , mesmer is not . Look at cooldowns may be?

    1s invuln on dodge with 100% vigor uptime

    It is an evade . There is no 100% vigor uptime ,its not cuccsmith or s/d thief that get 8s on every evade and he have waaaaaaaaaaaay more evades than everyone

    It is not an evade because ground effects don't interrupt it. you can run through warding lines, spectral wall, etc while using mirage cloak. The only difference between it and an invuln is that conditions continue to tick on you while it's

    Thats a lie . Know your facts before making a thread and spit bs out of your mouth. (second part is true because its just an evade)

    invuln on f4, 1-4s + 1-4 mirrors for an additional 1-4s.

    Who use it ? Why wouldnt you swap to chaos to reset such OP trait with the new trait? So imba , but still isn't used .(that distort recharge is abit absurd but w/e )

    Did you not look at the build, or do you not understand what desert distortion does? each of the clones you shatter for f4 distortion (which also grants mirage cloak with this trait, for some unknowable reason) becomes a mirage mirror. When touched, each grants you 1s of mirage cloak- which is a 1s invuln. 3 clones=4s distortion followed by 3 1s mirage cloaks. so i guess i'm wrong, it's a max of 7s of invuln that allows you to, and improves, attacks during it

    1. u still confuse invul and evade . 2 its not THAT op as you trying to make it look .3 you missing the axe trait. 4 i know how does it work and why I wouldnt ever pick that trait. 5 you didnt get what I said when mentioned chaos and brand new OP trait... thats sad ,really

    2 target breaks, at absolute worst 1s of people trying to see which is the real mesmer out of the pile of clones

    I see ambush only or there more target breaks? Or you mean stealth?Clones...they are limited and not a problem to see real mesmer,the only problem is how people rendered like DE with invisible DJ or laser from scepter 3 is invisible and all you see are big numbers instead of the animation

    Again, not 100% sure you even know how to play mesmer at this point. axes of symmetry and illusionary ambush.

    That I havent seen axe in that weird website is your fault tho, I was shocked by your complaints about worst mesmer offhand eksdee

    minimum 2 stealths, both instant. 3 with decoy, also instant. breaks target again.

    Stealth always broke target, nerf stealth

    brings our total to 4-5 target breaks

    What a surprise...you cant target what you cant see... You can remove stealth from the game entirely but thief fanboys will cry (rangers too) . I'm convienced MIRAGE doesnt need stealth at all.

    scepter block, 4.75s CD

    Agree, lets nerf scepter to hell (im not joking)

    focus or pistol disable, diversion x1-4, torch disable, mantra disable x2 if chosen. hope you can upkeep stab 100% of the time!

    You are just listing every possible daze (and only 1 stun from pistol) .What was the point ?
    P.S Why are you emphasize on blinds from BD while eveyone running perma reflect ? Where is the riot to remove it entirely or at least set cd to 10 seconds ? Permanent immunity to projectiles without any effort, how about no ?

    You're right, why are there two master tier traits in dueling better than anyone else's grandmaster tier traits? mesmers can either take bd and win every match against a melee opponent, or take evasive mirror and win every match against ranged opponents?

    To answer your original post: Each of the defenses listed are available in that build, and it does make the build look broken. I'm glad you can see that and agree!

    I agree on the certain things if you didnt notice ,not signed for every bs you say

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:
    My main gripe is that mirage can dodge AFTER being cc'd or stunned. I'm not talking about elusive mind. I'm talking about evading AFTER I land my longer cooldown Magnet to follow up with Pry Bar or Blowtorch or whatever and not spending a stun break or other long cooldown skill to get that effect.

    How am I ever supposed to land a CC-burst combo on a mirage if they can counter it with a dodge on a shorter cooldown?

    Dodging while cc'd is an extremely powerful effect. It allows low skilled mirages to make up for bad play by dodging after making mistakes in the first place.

    It breaks one of the unwritten rules of GW2 pvp combat. That is: If you get CC'd you spend a stunbreak or eat the follow up damage. That's how it works for every other class in the game. Stunbreaks are on long cooldowns (like, 30s+) and take up precious skill slots. Dodges recharge really quickly (like, sub-10s, especially with vigor/traits/etc) and do not take up a skill slot.

    Thieves can remove condis with their dash trait on daredevil, but then we get a debuff. Do mesmers have the same debuff?

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    My main gripe is that mirage can dodge AFTER being cc'd or stunned. I'm not talking about elusive mind. I'm talking about evading AFTER I land my longer cooldown Magnet to follow up with Pry Bar or Blowtorch or whatever and not spending a stun break or other long cooldown skill to get that effect.

    How am I ever supposed to land a CC-burst combo on a mirage if they can counter it with a dodge on a shorter cooldown?

    Dodging while cc'd is an extremely powerful effect. It allows low skilled mirages to make up for bad play by dodging after making mistakes in the first place.

    It breaks one of the unwritten rules of GW2 pvp combat. That is: If you get CC'd you spend a stunbreak or eat the follow up damage. That's how it works for every other class in the game. Stunbreaks are on long cooldowns (like, 30s+) and take up precious skill slots. Dodges recharge really quickly (like, sub-10s, especially with vigor/traits/etc) and do not take up a skill slot.

    Thieves can remove condis with their dash trait on daredevil, but then we get a debuff. Do mesmers have the same debuff?

    The one dodge trait that allows mirage to remove condi also has a debuff. See elusive mind

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    My main gripe is that mirage can dodge AFTER being cc'd or stunned. I'm not talking about elusive mind. I'm talking about evading AFTER I land my longer cooldown Magnet to follow up with Pry Bar or Blowtorch or whatever and not spending a stun break or other long cooldown skill to get that effect.

    How am I ever supposed to land a CC-burst combo on a mirage if they can counter it with a dodge on a shorter cooldown?

    Dodging while cc'd is an extremely powerful effect. It allows low skilled mirages to make up for bad play by dodging after making mistakes in the first place.

    It breaks one of the unwritten rules of GW2 pvp combat. That is: If you get CC'd you spend a stunbreak or eat the follow up damage. That's how it works for every other class in the game. Stunbreaks are on long cooldowns (like, 30s+) and take up precious skill slots. Dodges recharge really quickly (like, sub-10s, especially with vigor/traits/etc) and do not take up a skill slot.

    Thieves can remove condis with their dash trait on daredevil, but then we get a debuff. Do mesmers have the same debuff?

    The one dodge trait that allows mirage to remove condi also has a debuff. See elusive mind

    Okay, I was just making sure because it just seems stuff that thief got then people cried for nerfs got added to mesmer and is now being called for nerfs again. Which makes sense. Thieves could literally not be locked down with Dash. But it just seems Anet keeps repeating their mistakes. Another huge issue is stealth on dodge again for both professions.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    quietly filing nails

    Don't mind me, I'm just gonna count all the times where the articulated point of [Mirage has too much damage mitigation for the damage it can do on condi specs] is met by deflections to semantics arguments or cherry picking of non critical elements of how the premise was presented instead of actually arguing that the current state of its mitigation is balanced.

    I agree condition mesmer is far too strong, it does too much damage (also scepter builds) but lets not pretend that every other class isn't doing far too much damage for how it traits either.

    I mean go through current builds and count how many take a damage trait line other than the elite. There's Rev, Mirage, Thief and Scourge. Honorable mention to Core guard but when picking 3 out of 5 traits it's very difficult to get a build that doesn't pick a damage trait line.

    I'm sure someone else will be eagerly rubbing their hands to post "but the elite spec is a damage spec! OMEGALUL!!" - Yeah OK so it's a damage spec, why is it that it not only brings damage but far too much in utility and survivability at the same time?

    Maybe these elite specs need a good looking at. Where they decide what the trait line is supposed to be, damage, support, defence etc. Then differentiate the traits and skills from there so you'd have power, condition, hybrid damage options and for support buffing, healing, damage mitigation as flavours etc.

    It's like this meme:

    "On a separate note, we've also reduced the power of mirages in PvP in order to lower their burst damage. We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." So they nerfed the charges on jaunt a defensive skill and barely touched the damage of mirage at all while in previous patches nerfing vigor uptime and defences.

    ANet is Anet.

    Kek, go take a look at warrior metabuild, it literally runs 3 dmg traitlines with almost every dmg multiplier they can get their hands on just to do atleast some dmg

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    My main gripe is that mirage can dodge AFTER being cc'd or stunned. I'm not talking about elusive mind. I'm talking about evading AFTER I land my longer cooldown Magnet to follow up with Pry Bar or Blowtorch or whatever and not spending a stun break or other long cooldown skill to get that effect.

    How am I ever supposed to land a CC-burst combo on a mirage if they can counter it with a dodge on a shorter cooldown?

    Dodging while cc'd is an extremely powerful effect. It allows low skilled mirages to make up for bad play by dodging after making mistakes in the first place.

    It breaks one of the unwritten rules of GW2 pvp combat. That is: If you get CC'd you spend a stunbreak or eat the follow up damage. That's how it works for every other class in the game. Stunbreaks are on long cooldowns (like, 30s+) and take up precious skill slots. Dodges recharge really quickly (like, sub-10s, especially with vigor/traits/etc) and do not take up a skill slot.

    Thieves can remove condis with their dash trait on daredevil, but then we get a debuff. Do mesmers have the same debuff?

    The one dodge trait that allows mirage to remove condi also has a debuff. See elusive mind

    Okay, I was just making sure because it just seems stuff that thief got then people cried for nerfs got added to mesmer and is now being called for nerfs again. Which makes sense. Thieves could literally not be locked down with Dash. But it just seems Anet keeps repeating their mistakes. Another huge issue is stealth on dodge again for both professions.

    Hey, I'd just like to mention to make sure you understand, Elusive Mind does not give a debuff unless the mesmer breaks stun/hard CC, which is at baseline less punishing than the debuff given to thieves that procs on being crippled, chilled or immobilized. These condis are more prevalent and more disposable than hard CC in rotation.
    Not that Elusive Mind is a problem because of this, since the mirage can still dodge while stunned whether they take the trait or not, but yknow.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RedShark.9548 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    quietly filing nails

    Don't mind me, I'm just gonna count all the times where the articulated point of [Mirage has too much damage mitigation for the damage it can do on condi specs] is met by deflections to semantics arguments or cherry picking of non critical elements of how the premise was presented instead of actually arguing that the current state of its mitigation is balanced.

    I agree condition mesmer is far too strong, it does too much damage (also scepter builds) but lets not pretend that every other class isn't doing far too much damage for how it traits either.

    I mean go through current builds and count how many take a damage trait line other than the elite. There's Rev, Mirage, Thief and Scourge. Honorable mention to Core guard but when picking 3 out of 5 traits it's very difficult to get a build that doesn't pick a damage trait line.

    I'm sure someone else will be eagerly rubbing their hands to post "but the elite spec is a damage spec! OMEGALUL!!" - Yeah OK so it's a damage spec, why is it that it not only brings damage but far too much in utility and survivability at the same time?

    Maybe these elite specs need a good looking at. Where they decide what the trait line is supposed to be, damage, support, defence etc. Then differentiate the traits and skills from there so you'd have power, condition, hybrid damage options and for support buffing, healing, damage mitigation as flavours etc.

    It's like this meme:

    "On a separate note, we've also reduced the power of mirages in PvP in order to lower their burst damage. We want mirages to excel in longer combat engagements, but their burst damage was just too high." So they nerfed the charges on jaunt a defensive skill and barely touched the damage of mirage at all while in previous patches nerfing vigor uptime and defences.

    ANet is Anet.

    Kek, go take a look at warrior metabuild, it literally runs 3 dmg traitlines with almost every dmg multiplier they can get their hands on just to do atleast some dmg

    Lol people still running tramawar? Discipline isn't really a damage line, sure it has damage mods but almost no-one picks any except burst mastery but spellbreaker is anything but a damage trait line. Wars run splb, dis, def after the magebane nerf.

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    My main gripe is that mirage can dodge AFTER being cc'd or stunned. I'm not talking about elusive mind. I'm talking about evading AFTER I land my longer cooldown Magnet to follow up with Pry Bar or Blowtorch or whatever and not spending a stun break or other long cooldown skill to get that effect.

    How am I ever supposed to land a CC-burst combo on a mirage if they can counter it with a dodge on a shorter cooldown?

    Dodging while cc'd is an extremely powerful effect. It allows low skilled mirages to make up for bad play by dodging after making mistakes in the first place.

    It breaks one of the unwritten rules of GW2 pvp combat. That is: If you get CC'd you spend a stunbreak or eat the follow up damage. That's how it works for every other class in the game. Stunbreaks are on long cooldowns (like, 30s+) and take up precious skill slots. Dodges recharge really quickly (like, sub-10s, especially with vigor/traits/etc) and do not take up a skill slot.

    Thieves can remove condis with their dash trait on daredevil, but then we get a debuff. Do mesmers have the same debuff?

    The one dodge trait that allows mirage to remove condi also has a debuff. See elusive mind

    Okay, I was just making sure because it just seems stuff that thief got then people cried for nerfs got added to mesmer and is now being called for nerfs again. Which makes sense. Thieves could literally not be locked down with Dash. But it just seems Anet keeps repeating their mistakes. Another huge issue is stealth on dodge again for both professions.

    Hey, I'd just like to mention to make sure you understand, Elusive Mind does not give a debuff unless the mesmer breaks stun/hard CC, which is at baseline less punishing than the debuff given to thieves that procs on being crippled, chilled or immobilized. These condis are more prevalent and more disposable than hard CC in rotation.
    Not that Elusive Mind is a problem because of this, since the mirage can still dodge while stunned whether they take the trait or not, but yknow.

    Ah okay. I don't play mesmer so thanks for clearing that up.

  • At this rate mirage will be deleted before I even come close to gitting gud with it. :'(

    I've always avoided meta builds in order to not be too annoying with my mes. I really prefer discovering what works for me and not just copying the be all, end all builds.

    Now I kind of want Anet to just nerf the hell out of mes so I can at least play (casually) without feeling like everyone hates me. It isn't just on the forum but in game, even in unranked. If I overperform it's because I'm playing an OP class. If I underperform, I have no excuses and get ridiculed just the same.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:
    Condi Mirage is not OP in PvP.

    It's the most OP spec the game has ever seen in WvW due to 3 things:

    • overpowered energy sigil (mirage benefits more than every other spec from endurance as the latter directly boosts the spec mechanic: a dodge lasts longer than on other specs (0.75s vs. 1s), the spec can attack while dodging, dodging gives increased utility on weapons)
    • overpowered endurance food (reason: see above!)
    • trailblazer/dire (it can apply a lot more pressure and do a lot more misplays until it needs to disengage)

    None of the mentioned things is available in PvP.

    To add to your points, in WvW, condi mirage = the pre-nerfed chill Reaper on steroids.
    Back then Reapers could do 3 bleeds on chill and inflict huge stacks of bleed by chaining skills that did chill (I think the highest I saw was 40+ stacks of bleed but that was when the opponent just stood there and ate every combo the Reaper did).

    If condi Reapers were nerfed into oblivion (1 bleed on chill), then condi mirage should face a similar balance pass.

    Now, condi mirage are able to chain skills and easily inflict a continuous stream of torment and confusion, easily stacking 20+ confusion and 20+ torment and 10+ bleeds/burns and reapplying all these condis very frequently.

    IIRC, anet once said that the design philosophy behind condi dmg was for it to have a ramp up time. It was supposed to be Low-moderate damage that builds up over time if it is not cleansed, as opposed to power damage that was to be instant. (Which I suppose is a reason why stats like dire/trailblazers exist to enable a condi player to survive Long enough to ramp up the damage over time)

    The current state of condi dmg application across most classes however seems not to match the above philosophy of ramp up over time condi damage.

    Most classes (except Necro, Ele and Warrior) are instead able to chain skills and inflict large stacks of damaging conditions that does huge amount of near instantaneous damage over time. (Which makes stats like dire/trailblazers seem broken as the condi player is able to hit as hard and as fast as a power build but with even more defenses)

    The most OP burst has to belong to Mirage.

    Visit 🏴‍☠️ Eremite's WvW Necromancy Graveyard 🏴‍☠️

    CD -> TC -> Mag -> GOM -> AR -> JQ