Damage multipliers should not stack multiplicatively. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Damage multipliers should not stack multiplicatively.

Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Madisonlee.9641Madisonlee.9641 Member ✭✭✭

    I respect the OP's opinion but my personal opinion is that huge numbers are fun and without them the game would be a lot more boring

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is this a veiled nerf Revenant thread or change how damage modifiers work?

    Because I honestly can't believe people are complaining about Revenant's but then again, this is the pvp forum and I don't expect much nowadays.

  • Luna.6203Luna.6203 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    Haha ! Pwned by potato class!

    if you think these are high numbers you should meet my deadeye! =)

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    they did change the damage reduction they might change the Damage multipliers
    but i dont think any time time soon
    Anet is so slow with the PvP
    next year may be

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the game needs caps in its competitive modes. not just for damage either.

    Te lazla otstra.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    It s just pure luck. The rev had 25 stack might AND he had the 2 beasts boons AND you had 25 stack vuln.

    Maybe classes shouldn't be able to stack that much damage mods in 4s?

    The rev had 0 boons at 0:15, with his first boons at 0:16. He had 20 might in addition to fury when he began Unrelenting Assault at 0:20. Worth pointing out that I only had 18 vuln when I was hit not 25, and that I was using a Paladin's Amulet so it's not like I didn't have any toughness.

    Next time don t chase off point I guess....

    Why shouldn't I? I had the option of engaging the Mesmer or the Rev. My class can't do kitten against a Mesmer, but I can do something against a rev. Moreover I knew from previous experience that the rev wasn't particularly good and that I could best him easily, a assumption that was quickly confirmed by I was besting him up until he pressed 3 on his keyboard and deleted me from existence.

    The entire reason I made this thread is because I essentially got robbed because I had no way to expect that a skill that normally doesn't exceed 6k damage would hit me for 17k. This isn't a problem exclusive to revenant either. I've seen 12k Warrior GS3, 4k engi rifle autos, literally everything soulbeast does. The damage formulation in this game is fundamentally broken.

    Hmm.. I've never ever seen an a engi rifle auto exceed 2500 with might and vuln in PvP. I think that's not a skill you would lump in a "scaling out of control" pile.

    Source: Hipshot god

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Someone needs to brush up on current PvP patch notes, Fury only gives 3 Might when traited...js and Risposting shadows works similar to other skills that do the similar things ie remove movement impairing conditions(the majority of movement skills remove movement impairing conditions FYI) and restoring a resource on top of evading and stun break... js

    Some people need to get their information straight, before suggesting things.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I suggested this a couple months ago in general discussion, the thread was removed.

    Damage modifiers should stack additively, not multiplicatively

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Someone needs to brush up on current PvP patch notes, Fury only gives 3 Might when traited...js and Risposting shadows works similar to other skills that do the similar things ie remove movement impairing conditions(the majority of movement skills remove movement impairing conditions FYI) and restoring a resource on top of evading and stun break... js

    Some people need to get their information straight, before suggesting things.

    First of all ....if you wanna play the "lololol get your facts straigth"-card, you should know that fury only gives 2 stacks of might in pvp.
    Secondly, Notoriety is still very much meta on revs and gives 3 mighstacks on shiro-skill use.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    Edit: nvm, brain not function

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Someone needs to brush up on current PvP patch notes, Fury only gives 3 Might when traited...js and Risposting shadows works similar to other skills that do the similar things ie remove movement impairing conditions(the majority of movement skills remove movement impairing conditions FYI) and restoring a resource on top of evading and stun break... js

    Some people need to get their information straight, before suggesting things.

    First of all ....if you wanna play the "lololol get your facts straigth"-card, you should know that fury only gives 2 stacks of might in pvp.
    Secondly, Notoriety is still very much meta on revs and gives 3 mighstacks on shiro-skill use.

    Oh darn a typo on my phone, but yes I forgot to account for Notoriety so you got me there, but doesn’t change the fact that skill functions similar to almost every other movement but removing movement impairing effects and right now Weaver has one of the most defensive builds that can still burst people down quite effectively if the player knows what they are doing.

    So let’s get this straight you are saying a skill that only when heavily traited to add 5 might, that costs almost half of the classes resource which can take away from being able to utilize other skills both weapon and utility, which no other class has to deal with.

    And let’s not forget baseline the skill does nothing all that different compared to other similar skills, and can be locked out of even using it just by using other skills... it’s almost like players have to evaluate classes as a whole and not cherry pick things in a vacuum or something.... js

  • @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Riposting Shadows is Shiro's signature skill from GW1. It's disgustingly powerful and a callback to the actual legend. I think that it should be powerful, but the ability of the Revenant to stack so many boons that buff the damage to insane levels without any real game play investment (like blasting might for example) as a passive is what should be looked at and adjusted in PvP specifically.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lothefallen.7081 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Riposting Shadows is Shiro's signature skill from GW1. It's disgustingly powerful and a callback to the actual legend. I think that it should be powerful, but the ability of the Revenant to stack so many boons that buff the damage to insane levels without any real game play investment (like blasting might for example) as a passive is what should be looked at and adjusted in PvP specifically.

    It’s almost like they should shave Notoriety for PvP only, instead of nerfing 1 skill, since the trait seems to be the issue for RS being so strong.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Someone needs to brush up on current PvP patch notes, Fury only gives 3 Might when traited...js and Risposting shadows works similar to other skills that do the similar things ie remove movement impairing conditions(the majority of movement skills remove movement impairing conditions FYI) and restoring a resource on top of evading and stun break... js

    Some people need to get their information straight, before suggesting things.

    First of all ....if you wanna play the "lololol get your facts straigth"-card, you should know that fury only gives 2 stacks of might in pvp.
    Secondly, Notoriety is still very much meta on revs and gives 3 mighstacks on shiro-skill use.

    Oh darn a typo on my phone, but yes I forgot to account for Notoriety so you got me there, but doesn’t change the fact that skill functions similar to almost every other movement but removing movement impairing effects and right now Weaver has one of the most defensive builds that can still burst people down quite effectively if the player knows what they are doing.

    So let’s get this straight you are saying a skill that only when heavily traited to add 5 might, that costs almost half of the classes resource which can take away from being able to utilize other skills both weapon and utility, which no other class has to deal with.

    And let’s not forget baseline the skill does nothing all that different compared to other similar skills, and can be locked out of even using it just by using other skills... it’s almost like players have to evaluate classes as a whole and not cherry pick things in a vacuum or something.... js

    Im not cherry picking. Notoriety for instance is extremely powerful regardless of what skill you use (might being 33% more effective).
    Its not that uncommon the see a revenant chain RS into dodge into Rs into dodge. And they still regen enough energy to throw in a staff 3 at some point.

    And for your weaver comparison....Yes, its good defense, but I have to dedicate all of my traits to defense and cant turn around and just "burst people down" on freaking water attunement....which is very much "cherry picking in a vacuum" on your part. Js

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Someone needs to brush up on current PvP patch notes, Fury only gives 3 Might when traited...js and Risposting shadows works similar to other skills that do the similar things ie remove movement impairing conditions(the majority of movement skills remove movement impairing conditions FYI) and restoring a resource on top of evading and stun break... js

    Some people need to get their information straight, before suggesting things.

    First of all ....if you wanna play the "lololol get your facts straigth"-card, you should know that fury only gives 2 stacks of might in pvp.
    Secondly, Notoriety is still very much meta on revs and gives 3 mighstacks on shiro-skill use.

    Oh darn a typo on my phone, but yes I forgot to account for Notoriety so you got me there, but doesn’t change the fact that skill functions similar to almost every other movement but removing movement impairing effects and right now Weaver has one of the most defensive builds that can still burst people down quite effectively if the player knows what they are doing.

    So let’s get this straight you are saying a skill that only when heavily traited to add 5 might, that costs almost half of the classes resource which can take away from being able to utilize other skills both weapon and utility, which no other class has to deal with.

    And let’s not forget baseline the skill does nothing all that different compared to other similar skills, and can be locked out of even using it just by using other skills... it’s almost like players have to evaluate classes as a whole and not cherry pick things in a vacuum or something.... js

    Im not cherry picking. Notoriety for instance is extremely powerful regardless of what skill you use (might being 33% more effective).
    Its not that uncommon the see a revenant chain RS into dodge into Rs into dodge. And they still regen enough energy to throw in a staff 3 at some point.

    And for your weaver comparison....Yes, its good defense, but I have to dedicate all of my traits to defense and cant turn around and just "burst people down" on freaking water attunement....which is very much "cherry picking in a vacuum" on your part. Js

    Oh geeze the current Weaver build in PvP is great defense and great burst, and lulz at can’t burst in water... it’s not like Weaver doesn’t have access to other attumejts/attunement combos that can’t burst, again cherry picking.

    And again using the the RS especially Twice in a row locks Revenant from using almost every skill except AA or forcing them to Legend Swap which isn’t always ideal, and one more time, if Revs use almost any other skills or in a different legend guess what no RS up due to lack of energy. Again have to look at the class as a whole instead of cherry picking inna vacuum.

    The issue isn’t RS it’s Notoriety, so the smart thing to do is shave Notoriety’s might gain slightly in PvP.

  • lothefallen.7081lothefallen.7081 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
    It’s almost like they should shave Notoriety for PvP only, instead of nerfing 1 skill, since the trait seems to be the issue for RS being so strong.

    Passive game play can be fun if it's not something that over-centralizes the need to counter with class or sigil specific features like boon ripping. In order to adequately handle this Rev build and keep it from decimating in team fights, you basically have to focus boon rip and even then it's still very powerful. Not all classes have access to reliable boon rip to handle passive elements of a class. It creates game play situations that aren't engaging and show that there's a selfish element to the class design since devs seem to care more about how OP they can make a class feel to the player to get that dopamine pumping rather than how it influences the game as a whole. No class should be able to stack might that high with no assistance from other classes while smoking a cigar and involving more passive gameplay elements than active ones.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lothefallen.7081 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
    It’s almost like they should shave Notoriety for PvP only, instead of nerfing 1 skill, since the trait seems to be the issue for RS being so strong.

    Passive game play can be fun if it's not something that over-centralizes the need to counter with class or sigil specific features like boon ripping. In order to adequately handle this Rev build and keep it from decimating in team fights, you basically have to focus boon rip and even then it's still very powerful. Not all classes have access to reliable boon rip to handle passive elements of a class. It creates game play situations that aren't engaging and show that there's a selfish element to the class design since devs seem to care more about how OP they can make a class feel to the player to get that dopamine pumping rather than how it influences the game as a whole. No class should be able to stack might that high with no assistance from other classes while smoking a cigar involving passive gameplay elements more than active ones.

    Again read what I said, it might help I said shave the might generation, let’s repeat that one more time, shave the might generation of Notoriety, and every class in PvP does have access to boon rip through sigils, if boons are such an issue it would be smart for people having issues with booms to run those, now this doesn’t even take into account 3 classes with the best boon rip in game, or the fact that any class can easily generate 25 might with the Sigil, Runes and inherent traits and skills those classes have, fyi Rev isn’t the only class that can easily generate 25 might by itself.

    And technically it’s not passive gameplay since you have to use specific active skills to utilize those traits js.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    You got hit for 17k from a S3. S3 is highly telegraphed and doesn't hit all the damage instantly. There are other skills in the game on other classes that can do twice this damage instantly and in many cases from stealth with no telegraph or animation at all. You had enough endurance for an evade, but didn't use it.

    TL;DR you got outplayed.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Someone needs to brush up on current PvP patch notes, Fury only gives 3 Might when traited...js and Risposting shadows works similar to other skills that do the similar things ie remove movement impairing conditions(the majority of movement skills remove movement impairing conditions FYI) and restoring a resource on top of evading and stun break... js

    Some people need to get their information straight, before suggesting things.

    First of all ....if you wanna play the "lololol get your facts straigth"-card, you should know that fury only gives 2 stacks of might in pvp.
    Secondly, Notoriety is still very much meta on revs and gives 3 mighstacks on shiro-skill use.

    Oh darn a typo on my phone, but yes I forgot to account for Notoriety so you got me there, but doesn’t change the fact that skill functions similar to almost every other movement but removing movement impairing effects and right now Weaver has one of the most defensive builds that can still burst people down quite effectively if the player knows what they are doing.

    So let’s get this straight you are saying a skill that only when heavily traited to add 5 might, that costs almost half of the classes resource which can take away from being able to utilize other skills both weapon and utility, which no other class has to deal with.

    And let’s not forget baseline the skill does nothing all that different compared to other similar skills, and can be locked out of even using it just by using other skills... it’s almost like players have to evaluate classes as a whole and not cherry pick things in a vacuum or something.... js

    Im not cherry picking. Notoriety for instance is extremely powerful regardless of what skill you use (might being 33% more effective).
    Its not that uncommon the see a revenant chain RS into dodge into Rs into dodge. And they still regen enough energy to throw in a staff 3 at some point.

    And for your weaver comparison....Yes, its good defense, but I have to dedicate all of my traits to defense and cant turn around and just "burst people down" on freaking water attunement....which is very much "cherry picking in a vacuum" on your part. Js

    Oh geeze the current Weaver build in PvP is great defense and great burst, and lulz at can’t burst in water... it’s not like Weaver doesn’t have access to other attumejts/attunement combos that can’t burst, again cherry picking.

    And again using the the RS especially Twice in a row locks Revenant from using almost every skill except AA or forcing them to Legend Swap which isn’t always ideal, and one more time, if Revs use almost any other skills or in a different legend guess what no RS up due to lack of energy. Again have to look at the class as a whole instead of cherry picking inna vacuum.

    The issue isn’t RS it’s Notoriety, so the smart thing to do is shave Notoriety’s might gain slightly in PvP.

    Funny that you say that Rev has to give up its ability to counterpressure when they want to chain RS' but still make an argument for weaver being able to "burst" their targets.

    Anyhow...to get somewhat back on track.
    I said nerfing RS was 1 of 2 options. Im fine with nerfing their dmg mods and offensive boon accessibility as well.
    And (this time at least) I have to agree that Notoriety is one of the main offenders.
    But not only because it produces might as a byproduct, but also because it makes might in general more effective (40 power per stack is pretty neat).

    Personally I would prefer it tho, if Rev simply was forced to take up actual defenses.
    Shield is pretty nice ever since the buffs it received. Retribution traitline also doesn't look bad (at least on paper).
    But nobody uses those tools, since their full PVE-dps specs still gives them reasonably good defenses.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Someone needs to brush up on current PvP patch notes, Fury only gives 3 Might when traited...js and Risposting shadows works similar to other skills that do the similar things ie remove movement impairing conditions(the majority of movement skills remove movement impairing conditions FYI) and restoring a resource on top of evading and stun break... js

    Some people need to get their information straight, before suggesting things.

    First of all ....if you wanna play the "lololol get your facts straigth"-card, you should know that fury only gives 2 stacks of might in pvp.
    Secondly, Notoriety is still very much meta on revs and gives 3 mighstacks on shiro-skill use.

    Oh darn a typo on my phone, but yes I forgot to account for Notoriety so you got me there, but doesn’t change the fact that skill functions similar to almost every other movement but removing movement impairing effects and right now Weaver has one of the most defensive builds that can still burst people down quite effectively if the player knows what they are doing.

    So let’s get this straight you are saying a skill that only when heavily traited to add 5 might, that costs almost half of the classes resource which can take away from being able to utilize other skills both weapon and utility, which no other class has to deal with.

    And let’s not forget baseline the skill does nothing all that different compared to other similar skills, and can be locked out of even using it just by using other skills... it’s almost like players have to evaluate classes as a whole and not cherry pick things in a vacuum or something.... js

    Im not cherry picking. Notoriety for instance is extremely powerful regardless of what skill you use (might being 33% more effective).
    Its not that uncommon the see a revenant chain RS into dodge into Rs into dodge. And they still regen enough energy to throw in a staff 3 at some point.

    And for your weaver comparison....Yes, its good defense, but I have to dedicate all of my traits to defense and cant turn around and just "burst people down" on freaking water attunement....which is very much "cherry picking in a vacuum" on your part. Js

    Oh geeze the current Weaver build in PvP is great defense and great burst, and lulz at can’t burst in water... it’s not like Weaver doesn’t have access to other attumejts/attunement combos that can’t burst, again cherry picking.

    And again using the the RS especially Twice in a row locks Revenant from using almost every skill except AA or forcing them to Legend Swap which isn’t always ideal, and one more time, if Revs use almost any other skills or in a different legend guess what no RS up due to lack of energy. Again have to look at the class as a whole instead of cherry picking inna vacuum.

    The issue isn’t RS it’s Notoriety, so the smart thing to do is shave Notoriety’s might gain slightly in PvP.

    Funny that you say that Rev has to give up its ability to counterpressure when they want to chain RS' but still make an argument for weaver being able to "burst" their targets.

    Anyhow...to get somewhat back on track.
    I said nerfing RS was 1 of 2 options. Im fine with nerfing their dmg mods and offensive boon accessibility as well.
    And (this time at least) I have to agree that Notoriety is one of the main offenders.
    But not only because it produces might as a byproduct, but also because it makes might in general more effective (40 power per stack is pretty neat).

    Personally I would prefer it tho, if Rev simply was forced to take up actual defenses.
    Shield is pretty nice ever since the buffs it received. Retribution traitline also doesn't look bad (at least on paper).
    But nobody uses those tools, since their full PVE-dps specs still gives them reasonably good defenses.

    For one Revs inherent design locks them out of doing things, ie can’t access utility skills if they use a weapon skill or two, or vice versa at all times, something that Weaver doesn’t have to worry about since, you know because Weavers utilities and weapon skills are tied to the exact same resource pool so weavers can be defensive and offensive at the same time, they aren’t sacrificing anything for their great survivability and great burst, smh.

    Oh I wish Rev had more meaningful Defenses for PvP, but because of Revs inherent design the defenses they have mean next to nothing in sPvP, which means they have to go all in damage wise if they are going to be useful.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
    weavers can be defensive and offensive at the same time, they aren’t sacrificing anything for their great survivability and great burst, smh.

    Ye....this conversation is pointless.
    Sry for wasting everyones time.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:
    weavers can be defensive and offensive at the same time, they aren’t sacrificing anything for their great survivability and great burst, smh.


    Ye....this conversation is pointless.
    Sry for wasting everyones time.

    People that know how to properly use the class understand that nothing is actually sacrificed, since you know using a skill doesn’t lock them out of using others, let’s not forget Weaver gets dual attunements which shore up the weakness of the individual attunements... it’s clear to see when people don’t know how to properly evaluate classes or know how to properly use their class.

  • JayAction.9056JayAction.9056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    You can do that on weaver. Just because YOU can’t doesnt mean it’s not possible.

    OP got destroyed by trash REV playing zerk amulet because he’s horrible.

    OP had a dodge, all utility skills and his heal still available btw. Kind of embarrassing of you to post this. You spam your 3 skill in panic and eat like 6 attacks from somebody playing berserker amulet with nothing done in that time period.

    What did you expect?

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A power reaper complaining about getting wrecked in a 1v1 by a power build is a bit ironic considering what a power reaper can do with its pbaoe cleave to multiple foes in its radius. Note how Soul Spiral doesn't split its damage between targets like Unrelenting Assault.

    What many people who ask for this cant seem to math out is the fact that the difference in multiplied vs additive is like 20% on the extreme side with ALL the multipliers setup for the scenario. The obvious exception is Soul Beast with 40% and 50% damage modifiers.

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    I suggested this a couple months ago in general discussion, the thread was removed.

    Damage modifiers should stack additively, not multiplicatively

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/748290

    And the dishonesty continues...It wasn't removed. After showing how little you understood the math behind damage multipliers you just kept on going and people lost interest trying to debate/teach you.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @witcher.3197 said:
    You died while having enough endurance to dodge. Rev damage is crazy but this was your fault. Had you placed weakness on him after dodging sword 3 you would've probably won.

    And that was after using a CC while blinded.. misplaycity

    AND you had enough time to heal but you chose to attack for no reason. L2P

    I've only got exactly 2 evades as a necro and rev sword3 is typically not worth burning a extremely precious dodge charge on. Yeah sure looking back with hindsight knowing that the sword3 would do 17k damage makes it obvious that it should have been dodged, but in the moment where you don't know that the skill is going to hit for almost 3 times as much damage as it typically would it's not a bad play.

    I was also aware that he blinded me when I casting RS5, but I was more interested in seeing if I could bait a dodge, plus I wanted the chill field down.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    You got hit for 17k from a S3. S3 is highly telegraphed and doesn't hit all the damage instantly. There are other skills in the game on other classes that can do twice this damage instantly and in many cases from stealth with no telegraph or animation at all. You had enough endurance for an evade, but didn't use it.

    TL;DR you got outplayed.

    I'm sorry I didn't realize I needed to blow my precious dodge charge on a skill that almost never does more than 6k.

    Survival in this game is heavily reliant on being able to anticipate what is worth a dodge and what isn't worth a dodge. When you have skills that arbitrarily do three times the damage they would normally simply because the stars aligned it undermines this, you end up destroying the ability of the player to read the fight becuase of arcane modifiers causing wild deltas

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Eugchriss.2046 said:
    It s just pure luck. The rev had 25 stack might AND he had the 2 beasts boons AND you had 25 stack vuln.

    Maybe classes shouldn't be able to stack that much damage mods in 4s?

    The rev had 0 boons at 0:15, with his first boons at 0:16. He had 20 might in addition to fury when he began Unrelenting Assault at 0:20. Worth pointing out that I only had 18 vuln when I was hit not 25, and that I was using a Paladin's Amulet so it's not like I didn't have any toughness.

    Next time don t chase off point I guess....

    Why shouldn't I? I had the option of engaging the Mesmer or the Rev. My class can't do kitten against a Mesmer, but I can do something against a rev. Moreover I knew from previous experience that the rev wasn't particularly good and that I could best him easily, a assumption that was quickly confirmed by I was besting him up until he pressed 3 on his keyboard and deleted me from existence.

    The entire reason I made this thread is because I essentially got robbed because I had no way to expect that a skill that normally doesn't exceed 6k damage would hit me for 17k. This isn't a problem exclusive to revenant either. I've seen 12k Warrior GS3, 4k engi rifle autos, literally everything soulbeast does. The damage formulation in this game is fundamentally broken.

    Hmm.. I've never ever seen an a engi rifle auto exceed 2500 with might and vuln in PvP. I think that's not a skill you would lump in a "scaling out of control" pile.

    Source: Hipshot god

    Question: If I didn't have the video that is in the OP, would you have believed me when if I said that my paladin's reaper got hit for 17k by Unrelenting Assault? I would guess not, because 17k is a pretty absurd number for that skill. Yet it obviously did happen. I have 100% been hit by a 4k rifle auto before and you just have to take my word on it. Yeah it's not something that happens all the time, but it happens and it's gamebreaking when it does.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Madisonlee.9641 said:
    I respect the OP's opinion but my personal opinion is that huge numbers are fun and without them the game would be a lot more boring

    It would also be alot more balanced.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

    I saw the clip a couple of days ago and it was silly ye. Tho to be completely honest idk if i prefer them stacking additively or simply being much harder to stack and require team effort to do so. Which one would you prefer?

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

    I dont think so tbh.
    Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

    some quick napkin-maffs:

    Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%
    Targeted Destruction: 7%
    Ferocious Aggression: 7%
    Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)
    Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

    So additively those would be 40%.
    Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

    Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.
    So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

    Please correct me if im wrong here.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

    I dont think so tbh.
    Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

    some quick napkin-maffs:

    Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%
    Targeted Destruction: 7%
    Ferocious Aggression: 7%
    Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)
    Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

    So additively those would be 40%.
    Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

    Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.
    So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

    Please correct me if im wrong here.

    Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

    I dont think so tbh.
    Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

    some quick napkin-maffs:

    Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%
    Targeted Destruction: 7%
    Ferocious Aggression: 7%
    Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)
    Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

    So additively those would be 40%.
    Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

    Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.
    So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

    Please correct me if im wrong here.

    Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

    You also didn't account for vulnerability, (18 stacks in the vid) nor for damage modifiers from runes (such strength runes or scholar runes)

    If you do you get and additive of 63% (ferocity not included) and a multiplicative of 81%. Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive and 366% multiplicative.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Friends i agree with the OP. Part of guilt on some of the ridiculous numbers we have seen on the soulbeast is the amount of small percentage damage buffs (not Sicem as that one is merely around 25% in PvP)

    Still in my opinion this would be a good long term solution as it would be much easier to manage the increased damage. It can be as easy as just change the +5% to damage to +5% to power or ferocity.

    Just keep in mind i don't think this would solve the one shot builds but IMO it would make the one-shot skills more manageable.

  • rev in love.8439rev in love.8439 Member ✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

    I do not know why, but I have to rectify your irony, I just play REV and I can prove it to you, I've tried all the damage constructions and the 3 of the sword. You should ALWAYS dodge it if you are alone vs rev, 5x 1.5 ~ 2k is the damage that He usually does unrelenting assault. And you had things to counteract it ... I'm surprised you do not scream nerf backstab 18 ~ 20k from stealth ... What I think is absurd is your version of "that sword 3 is not a skill that has to dodge" oks show your ltp needed :)

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rev in love.8439 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

    I do not know why, but I have to rectify your irony, I just play REV and I can prove it to you, I've tried all the damage constructions and the 3 of the sword. You should ALWAYS dodge it if you are alone vs rev, 5x 1.5 ~ 2k is the damage that He usually does unrelenting assault. And you had things to counteract it ... I'm surprised you do not scream nerf backstab 18 ~ 20k from stealth ... What I think is absurd is your version of "that sword 3 is not a skill that has to dodge" oks show your ltp needed :)

    Certain people cry Nerf whenever they lose to anything, a quick perusal of posts shows this, nothing ever changes, certain people never see themselves as being the issue or hold themselves accountable for poor play/lack of skill, it’s always some outside factor that is the problem and needs to be nerfed.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rev in love.8439 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    Traits that increase outgoing damage should stack additively in order to eliminate the runaway damage numbers that certain builds have.

    I do not know why, but I have to rectify your irony, I just play REV and I can prove it to you, I've tried all the damage constructions and the 3 of the sword. You should ALWAYS dodge it if you are alone vs rev, 5x 1.5 ~ 2k is the damage that He usually does unrelenting assault. And you had things to counteract it ... I'm surprised you do not scream nerf backstab 18 ~ 20k from stealth ... What I think is absurd is your version of "that sword 3 is not a skill that has to dodge" oks show your ltp needed :)

    I dont think his issue is the skill rather how much dmg mods can scale it off the charts.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How do damage reduction work though? Do they stack multiplicatively as well?

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @MyPuppy.8970 said:
    How do damage reduction work though? Do they stack multiplicatively as well?

    Yep, some stacked additively while other multiplicatively but got changed to multiplicative due to unintended stacking which allowed to reduce almost all damage taken, ie Rite Of the Great Dwarf was changed from additive.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

    I dont think so tbh.
    Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

    some quick napkin-maffs:

    Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%
    Targeted Destruction: 7%
    Ferocious Aggression: 7%
    Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)
    Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

    So additively those would be 40%.
    Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

    Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.
    So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

    Please correct me if im wrong here.

    Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

    You also didn't account for vulnerability, (18 stacks in the vid) nor for damage modifiers from runes (such strength runes or scholar runes)

    If you do you get and additive of 63% (ferocity not included) and a multiplicative of 81%. Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive and 366% multiplicative.

    Imo it's kind of iffy to include vuln stacks in this calc, since its application and maintenance (in relevant quantities) are very situation- and MU-dependant. Fair point on the rune tho....can throw in another 1.05 mod for strength runes (since i dont think scholar runes are good on rev).

    Also what do you mean by "Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive..."?

    Edit: Nvm. I assume you meant 265% and that was a typo.
    But ...so you want ferocity to stack additively with dmg modifiers as well?
    Cause that would be a huge nerf to all powerspecs in general.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

    I dont think so tbh.
    Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

    some quick napkin-maffs:

    Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%
    Targeted Destruction: 7%
    Ferocious Aggression: 7%
    Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)
    Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

    So additively those would be 40%.
    Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

    Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.
    So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

    Please correct me if im wrong here.

    Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

    You also didn't account for vulnerability, (18 stacks in the vid) nor for damage modifiers from runes (such strength runes or scholar runes)

    If you do you get and additive of 63% (ferocity not included) and a multiplicative of 81%. Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive and 366% multiplicative.

    Imo it's kind of iffy to include vuln stacks in this calc, since its application and maintenance (in relevant quantities) are very situation- and MU-dependant. Fair point on the rune tho....can throw in another 1.05 mod for strength runes (since i dont think scholar runes are good on rev).

    Also what do you mean by "Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive..."?

    Edit: Nvm. I assume you meant 265% and that was a typo.
    But ...so you want ferocity to stack additively with dmg modifiers as well?
    Cause that would be a huge nerf to all powerspecs in general.

    I used a ferocity value of 2.02 with a rune modifier of 1.05 which would be equal to a Scholar + Marauder setup.

    No 165% is the correct value. I did typo in that it should have been 267% for the multiplicative. So it's 165% damage gain vs 267% damage gain. The actual modifiers are 2.65 and 3.67 but do remember that a modifier of 1.0 means no damage change, for clarity I chopped off 1.0 so that the percentage is only the percentage gained. In other words simply switching from additive damage modifiers to multiplicative modifiers resulted in 102% more damage output.

    My concern is that I want to bring the damage delta for skills down, not for just rev but for everyone. For example as a necro I often get frustrated by the insane delta on how much damage Ghastly Claws does. I've seen everything from 3k (no crits and no mods) to 13k+ (stars aligned) thus meaning the skill has a damage range of negligible to instant win. This is not conductive to a good experience when I can't trust on my burst skills to burst and can't trust my opponents filler skills to actually do filler damage.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Madisonlee.9641 said:
    I respect the OP's opinion but my personal opinion is that huge numbers are fun and without them the game would be a lot more boring

    I agree with Madison.

    Additionally, a few points I'd like to make:

    1. There are a lot of classes that require the damage to stack in the way that it currently does now or they wouldn't be viable at all. In other words, all competitive balance in the game is designed around the way damage multiplies and if anet were to change that, they'd need to seriously overhaul every class with that change or it would break the game in ways that will take years for current patching speeds to fix.
    2. The game is currently already another bunker wars meta, even within this high dps meta. Changing multiplicative damage stacking will seal the deal on a game meta where players are unable to kill each other. That's gonna get real boring, real fast.
    3. Hey I'm not saying changes couldn't be made, but it's important to identify the real problem here, and that problem in my opinion is not the way damage stacks, but rather power creep in general. Things were fine for 6 years up until recently when every class suddenly began vomiting 25 stacks of might, quickness, and every other boon in game with nearly 100% uptimes.
  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Zenix.6198 said:
    While im not opposed to OPs idea, I think the problems with revs insane burst go much deeper than just the dmg modifiers or even the 25 might and perma fury (=which should be freaking nerfed as well).

    Revs have been playing more or less the exact same build with the exact same playstyle since HoT release.
    And when I look at their go-to traitlines, I can't help but to see it as the rev-equivalent of a fire/air weaver.
    There is absolutely 0 defense in their trait choices.
    Anet has continuously buffed dwarf stance and the retribution traitline and yet people just dont use them.

    So personally I see two ways to "fix" Rev.
    First: Nerf literally every "gain might"-, "gain fury"- and dmg modifier trait to a level that can be dealt with.
    OR
    Second: Take the nerfbat to the Shiro-stance, specifically "Riposting Shadows" and "Phase Traversal".

    Riposting Shadows is such an obnoxiously powerfull skill, that legit makes me wonder if the Devs have even realized how hard it carries the spec.
    Read its skilldescription. It's disgustingly stacked.

    It clears movement impairing conditions, breaks stun, is a 600 range backwards evade, gives endurance and gives you fury and therefor 5 mighstacks if you traited correctly.
    All that on a ~6 second CD if you take the energy cost/regeneration ratio into account.
    And Phase Traversal is in a similar boat.

    If RS would actually be nerfed to give "just" the 600 range backwards evade with movement impairing condition clear (and they can keep the stun break for all I care), maybe they would actually have to drop some damage and take proper defensive traits or stances.

    If I cant take full PVE dps traits on my weaver without getting absolutely demolished, why can Revs do just that?

    Wouldnt making dmg buffs additive be a direct nerf to rev's dmg output and as a result rev would look for maybe more tankyness to offset the risks for the increased ttk?

    I dont think so tbh.
    Like, if we multiply all the dmg mods with each other (for revenant), the extra dmg we get in comparison to an additive stack is very insignificant.

    some quick napkin-maffs:

    Vicious Laceration: (3x) 3 = 9%
    Targeted Destruction: 7%
    Ferocious Aggression: 7%
    Reinforced Potency: ~4% (assuming 4 boons as a realistic value)
    Forceful Persistence: 13% (just assuming max value cause Im lazy atm)

    So additively those would be 40%.
    Multiplicatively those would be: 1.07x1.09x1.07x1.04x1.13 = 46.6%

    Unless this is wrong, it doesn't seem like that much of an issue.
    So instead of getting hit for 17k, you would instead be hit for ~16k.

    Please correct me if im wrong here.

    Edit: Okay, so If you add crit dmg as an additional modifier (and rev crits basically all the time), you get to about 11% more dmg with a multiplicative stack instead of an additive stack. Which is a bit more substantial

    You also didn't account for vulnerability, (18 stacks in the vid) nor for damage modifiers from runes (such strength runes or scholar runes)

    If you do you get and additive of 63% (ferocity not included) and a multiplicative of 81%. Including ferocity in that number gets 165% additive and 366% multiplicative.

    so if you use you are all weaklings no crit at all. which could save your life

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11, 2019

    If this thread is about damage modifiers then you should know Elementalists have a lot of damage modifiers too.
    Not sure why people would want that nerfed, but im also assuming people thought about things in the overall picture before they posted.

    If the thread is about Rev and nerfing Rev then I cant say much, rather see the damage on ranger toned down.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    You basically stood still and let him use everything he had on you and you're crying about him doing too much damage? What?
    This is a good lesson why you should use your dodges and not facetank anyone.

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    You basically stood still and let him use everything he had on you and you're crying about him doing too much damage? What?
    This is a good lesson why you should use your dodges and not facetank anyone.

    and you are basically a troll
    why the reaper is the one who have to dodge every time ( if you watch the video he did dodge once and die before dodge a second time)
    how about why the rev never dodge he ate the entire reaper burst why he get to survive without dodge and face tank any reaper( but you still tell the reaper you dodge)

    this logic that just dodge is just a troll
    you dont get to tell a necro dodge he have nothing but dodge every necro know that
    aside from build that have use dodge as a dps or a utility to decrease CD or heat in the last season i played i never ever saw a rev , core guard or boonbeast dodging any thing in 1v1 because they know that they can face tank a reaper and in the end they are the one who gona win

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