Personal Issues with Storytelling after Living Story Season 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Personal Issues with Storytelling after Living Story Season 5

Note that everyone has a unique style of writing. I do believe that storytelling has improved since the first LS and Scarlet Briar. However, there are some long running concepts that I have issues with:

Warning this will be highly critical, but positive criticism is intended.

1.) On the Subject of Dragons:

Let me draw a comparison here between Gw2 Dragons and HP Lovercraft. When HP Lovecraft first created the cosmic horrors, he did so with the intention that they were not good or evil but simply just "different." The grand idea behind lovecraft's works were that cosmic horrors were supposed to be beyond human understanding. They simple go on with tasks and motives that are incomprehensible to us. While they don't really go out of there way to annihilate us, if we just happen to be under their foot when they are taking a step then we just get crushed. Humans are that small to them. In the beginning the Gw2 Dragons were supposed to be portrayed in the same way. They were supposed to be "forces of nature" whose thinking was supposed to be incomprehensible.

A long time ago when all of this was first created it would have been better to make the dragons and gods "distant powers" like the Aedra and Daedra from the Elder Scrolls. Instead of direct confrontation, the world simply deals with their fall out and tries to stay out of their way. This original concept was ruined a long time ago when dragons started being personified, which was a huge mistake. It started with Zhaitan, then Mordremoth, then Kralk. The problem is, when the dragons started becoming "villainous" and talking to the players they didn't have any personalities or motives modeled correctly. They are simply "generic evil bad guy voice."

There really is no difference between the voice and motives of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk. They have no personality and either should not have been personified in the first place (they could have remained mysterious) or their personalities should have been properly thought out and properly storyboarded.

2.) Metaphysical Jargon

Because the dragons were not well thought out motive and personality wise, along them comes all this crazy metaphysical jargon that is not the least bit interesting. There are still holes and confusion surrounding dragon energy, corruption, etc. There are no simple explanations of why dragons need to corrupt in the first place (which would be find if they were NOT personified and just remained mysterious eldritch horrors). I think this hurts the plot because 70% of the plot is trying to explain complex and overly convoluted fantasy physics rather than real plot development.

The whole "tyrian balance model" and "eternal alchemy of fancy glowing lights" is really not understood by anyone other than the behind the scenes plot writers. Nothing about these metaphysics is conveyed well and we just get pointless visions then additional plot points that assume we have the faintest idea of what this model means. Metaphyiscs being the primary driver for the plot is just... so anime and just plain bad these days.

The drivers for plots should be:
-Main villain's motivations such as flawed beliefs or a cause the audience can understand/relate to (e.g. see "thanos was never wrong")
-Inter-party relationships and human emotion
-Faction politics
-Major events caused by mysterious higher powers (e.g. gods, dragons, etc.) but the higher powers should not be the focal point. The focal point should be the strugglers.

I feel like all of this is going to end in some incomprehensible cloud of fantasy ideas that will be rivaling the end of Neon Genesis Evangelion -in which the creator is the only one that really gets what's really going on and why it wrapped up the way it did.

3.) Flat Characters with no Interplay between each other

Braham's 180 to complete jerk without even talking to the party about his mother's death? Rylocks pointless withholding of information from the party about how he became a revenant? I mean there are just so many pointless and not really well meshed motivations for dragon's watch characters that make them just flat and unlikable. They all seem like paper cutouts to drive a bigger plot forward. There are no set personalities. One day Braham can be a jerk and the next he is a gallant hero saving children with his mighty guardian shield. Develop SET personalities for characters that change as a direct result of BIG EVENTS and have them talk to us about those changes when they happen.

There is so much strangeness in behavior. I mean where was Kasmeer's total freak out and church girl breakdown after balth goes bad? Gwen pops in up in LS5 as a ghost aiding the group and says NOTHING to Logan Thackary while she is there? There is very little character development and really the only/most developed character is... Canach -who most people like and is tolerable because he actually makes sense (being a rogue who turned around to become a part of the "good guy" troupe while still maintaining his rough edges).

The most important take on this is that characters should react to certain events based on the PERSONALITY THEY ARE BUILT WITH THAT IS PROPERLY CONVEYED AND UNDERSTOOD BY THE AUDIENCE.

4.) Death is cheap in Tyria

It bother's me how little death matters with so many dead entities (Koss, Glint, Gwen, the Main Character themselves) dying and coming back in some form or another. Dead should mean dead. When you cheapen death and bring people back you really hurt long term plots and your ability to make impacts. I mean if a character dies and we go "oh they will just come back later" we might as well be in the comic book universe. The whole deal with the commander dying and coming back so easily just cheapens death as a whole, which is dangerous for any story because your audience just stops caring or feels no impact when people get knocked-off.

Generally I hate hate hate resurrection plots unless the sacrifice is astronomically great and felt across the central characters for the remainder of the story. Coming back from the end needs to always come with huge penalties that are unrecoverable. Better yet, if you kill someone in the story -make it meaningful and keep them dead. Bringing back anyone just cheapens their character unless its done for a really really good reason.

Comments

  • Knuckle Joe.7408Knuckle Joe.7408 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019

    The thing that bothered me the most of all is that Braham was able to whitstand and save us from what it looked like a hyper-charged, point blank blast from Kralka himself, and not only that, but it also was charged with the power of Mordremoth, Balthazar and Zhaitan while Aurene could not take one from a weakened Kralk. Srsly? Am I missing something or was that utter bull.

    I feel they needed to reverse these two instances to make it more believable. But still, Braham shielding us from a focused attack by an elder dragon with a simple guardian bubble seemed sloppy. Unless I'm missing something and Braham's the strongest tank in the entire GW2 universe.

    About elder dragons corrupting though, I think it has been stated elsewhere that all the elder dragons are actually at odds with each other. Each dragon wants all the magic in the world for himself. They could be potentially raising a massive army to attack other elder dragons and reign supreme. Zhaitan also used some of his minions for finding him powerful magic artifacts to consume and grow stronger.

  • NaiveBayes.2587NaiveBayes.2587 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019

    I also wish the dragons were less "human" in their behaviour but I also do remember in the early days of the game when the dragons presented as "forces of nature" and neither good nor evil a lot of people argued something along the lines of that they would not be good villains like those we saw in GW1 since they do not bring up any strong emotions from the players. Now at present we see the opposite complaint which just reinforces the idea that you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time and those with a complaint are the most vocal at those times.

  • lordhelmos.7623lordhelmos.7623 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019

    @NaiveBayes.2587 said:
    I also wish the dragons were less "human" in their behaviour but I also do remember in the early days of the game when the dragons presented as "forces of nature" and neither good nor evil a lot of people argued something along the lines of that they would not be good villains like those we saw in GW1 since they do not bring up any strong emotions from the players. Now at present we see the opposite complaint which just reinforces the idea that you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time and those with a complaint are the most vocal at those times.

    To be fair, either way is acceptable. However, if you are going to personify your villains you really need to plan their personality and motives. This wasn't really done at all with the dragons. If you look at the Elderscrolls, no one has an issue with how to the gods and daedra are portrayed because the groundwork done is so excellent.

    If you wanted to make the dragons impersonal and forces of nature, the dragons should not have been made such central figures to the story. Instead a strong cast of supporting villains should have been made to drive the plot and the actions of the dragons should have been just a backdrop force that causes events to happen. Example is in Skyrim where the central villain is Alduin, with supporting side quests such as the civil war where you have Tullius and Ulfric Stormcloak. The gods and Daedra are there, sometimes they interfere but they are not the "main plot."

    When players deal with the Daedra or gods, defeating them is completely out of the question. You don't go to a daedric shrine with the idea that "I'm going to defeat Hermaeus Mora today." You go there well knowing that your going to be pulled into a higher power conflict so far out of your control the best you can hope for is to not die and maybe come out as a little ant that has a tiny bit of this all powerful entity's favor. If the dragons were intended to be forces of nature, they should have been handled in the same way in which going into a conflict with a dragon would be "just survive the oncoming storm."

    If the dragons were intended to be personified they then needed to have clear goals, personality types, and demeanor. There could have been alot of good done here with scheming against the gods, deeper motives, or dragon vs dragon politics.

  • miriforst.1290miriforst.1290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019

    They started to write elder dragons like gods and gods like elder dragons. Balthazar might as well be an elder dragon with all the "I AM CONFLICT BWAHAHAHA" nonsense. And now kralkatorrik fears a world where everyone sings and dances and are happy without him. They kind of blend together into a gray, messy soup.

    I remember when the zaishen was the vigil of tyria. And when balthazar was honorable combat (in a game about killing stuff) with some pretty dark stuff added here and there. Its like having grenth show up wanting the entirety of tyria dead because "I AM DEATH!". Its strange considering they have tried to make abbadon more of a prometheus like figure and adding depth instead of removing it.

    Of course he could be written as a good villain given care, but everything from him being disguised as a creature who last swore revenge on countless generations and instantly showing how much of a bad guy he is by nuking majory first thing after being revealed as possibly being your god to using destroyer- i mean forged to kill youngli- i mean civilians is just there to reassure you how much of a 2d villain he is and how you shouldn't feel any conflict in immediately going god of war on him. Bonus point if taimi sneezes something convenient that makes your cause extra right and just so as to not make you character be filled with doubt or other complex emotions.

    If death is going to be cheap then fine, i want balthazar back. If that flying piece of cute merchandise material can come back next episode then a character that is a cornerstone in old lore should get a second chance too. And with that i would like a redemption arc, not to make balthy a good guy, but to make him a good character. I don't care if its just him talking to zafirah through his sword or whatever when we get that back.

    speaking of zafirah she is in my opinion a much needed character. Shes the only one who even seems to care about what you just did. I honestly felt like she expressed my thoughts and feeling on the whole balthazar mess better than my "still standing" commander ever did. She isn't a goody two shoes but neither is she mustache twirling. If anything she didn't even comment on you using balthazar's sword as bait and it seems she is jumping on the worship-aurene-train a little too fast. Only problem i have is that they didn't use her during POF and introduced us on opposing sides. The whole killing of kralkatorric does not need to be a black and white morality dilemma. There was an opportunity for the followers of balthazar to be devout followers who has doubt when a random teenage asura makes a u turn in regards to the elder dragons and who think they are saving the world (Balthazar included). They could be a misguided mirroring of the pact and the commander. But with the forged and balthazar it might as well have been dragon minions, and for the most part they act as such and boy do they know it. Even palawa joko is treated as more complex than one of the patron gods (the most relevant god to what we are doing) of humanity.

    -Purity of Purpose-
    P.S. You know, expert examination has worked this way since HOT release. You just updated the description.

    Also super speed does not stack, it overwrites. 5s + 1s=1s.

  • Tiny Doom.4380Tiny Doom.4380 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019

    Number 4 is the real issue, I think. No-one and nothing in GW2 is ever gone for good any more. Death in Tyria appears to mean so little now it's hard to see why anyone even gets upset about it, let alone has a complete grief-driven breakdown like Braham did. The current chapter rammed the "death doesn't mean anything" home to the point of farce: in the same episode that featured the (very well-done) emotional climax of the unexpected death of a major character, we also

    a) talked to a dwarf who made jokes about how the Player Character didn't need to be bothered by other characters being dead
    b) went to speak to a long-dead dwarf who made jokes about how boring it was being dead
    c) talked to the leader of an army of ghosts (dead people) fighting on our side
    d) had another army of Awakened (dead people) also fighting alongside us

    In past episodes we've talked to and interacted with any number of dead people. Eir, the previous holder of the Unexpected Major Character Death (Friendly) title, popped back in for a chat and to fight alongside us not long ago. The Player Character has even died and got better!

    With The Mists apparently being nothing more than a boring waiting room where everyone who ever died hangs around until everyone they ever knew turns up to hang around alongside them, it hardly seems likely anyone would care much one way or the other when a friend or relative stopped living. Well, not any more than you would if they moved to another country. One where you knew for sure you'd be moving in a few years anyway.

    The most scary thing I've seen in GW2 in relation to death is the Ghost Eater phenomenon, which doesn't seem to be well-explained in game. It poses a fascinating metaphysical question: if ghosts can "die", are they actually even"dead"?

    The whole thing is becoming increasingly ridiculous. It reminds me of nothing so much as Monty Python's Dead Parrot sketch - "He's not dead - he's gone to The Mists".

  • @Knuckle Joe.7408 said:
    The thing that bothered me the most of all is that Braham was able to whitstand and save us from what it looked like a hyper-charged, point blank blast from Kralka himself, and not only that, but it also was charged with the power of Mordremoth, Balthazar and Zhaitan while Aurene could not take one from a weakened Kralk. Srsly? Am I missing something or was that utter bull.

    I feel they needed to reverse these two instances to make it more believable. But still, Braham shielding us from a focused attack by an elder dragon with a simple guardian bubble seemed sloppy. Unless I'm missing something and Braham's the strongest tank in the entire GW2 universe.

    You missed the part where Aurene swooped in an strengthened Braham's shield I'm taking it. Just before the blast hits, Aurene flies in and puts in another barrier around herself and Braham's bubble.

    Braham didn't withstand that super-charged blast, he withstood what got past Aurene's shield. Pretty big difference, and in all honesty, defending against that blast probably left Aurene too drained to defend against the later blast, which she defended against with offense rather than a shield (resulting in her branding Kralk abit).

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is also heavily implied that Braham got some advice on how to protect against Brand attacks from the Djinn, given his interest in their methods of blocking it from previous content.

    Logging out forever.

  • lordhelmos.7623lordhelmos.7623 Member ✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019

    Steps on soap box

    Alright now that we have the problems identified well how do we fix them? Constructive criticism is simply complaining without positive feedback and ideas that back up on well, how things can be improved. So here we go:

    1.) Dead = Dead
    This is a major problem and the implications of dead people coming back so easily and so many "undead factions" driving the plot will make this hard to fix. What I would do is:
    A.) Anyone presently dead is not coming back.
    B.) For ghosts, undead factions, and etc. I would introduce plot elements that indicate that either these factions are on borrowed time. Or their existence is a torturous and unhappy one and they really want release to "true death." Any future instances of dead coming back will be handled very carefully, such as maybe someone did future planning like glint did before she died so she won't have to come back. Also any "resurrections" that occur will come back with drawbacks that are so devastating that "bringing someone back" would be out of the question unless absolutely 100% necessary. Any resurrection should come at great personal sacrifice to those involved and pose a huge moral dilemma of "ok guys do we really want to do this, I mean do we REALLY want to do this."

    2.) Flat and 2-Dimensional Characters
    Following the end of Living Story Ep. 5, considering the events that occurred this would be a great time to clear the board. Just like what happened with Destiny's Edge in the past, I would break up dragon's watch and start getting rid of a ton of uneeded characters. Many of the characters can just part silently with maybe a few lines of dialogue in the future of the game letting us know what happened to them. This is a good time to create new, likeable characters to populate into the player's story. New characters will be properly storyboarded as in:
    A.) A strong base personality type (e.g. rogue, manipulator, anti-hero, comic sidekick, etc.)
    B.) Strong and understandable motivations for their allegiances and actions
    C.) Scripted reactions to plot elements that directly correlate to their values
    The same consideration should be taken with the commander and their choices. For example, non-human characters being forced to take place in the shining blade death curse was just plain stupid. If your character was a charr you might have in-character gone "hell no" but the game doesnt even give you that choice.

    Here is an example of a properly modeled story character (major villain who lasts 1 LS story arc):
    Race/Class: Female Human, Thief
    Personality: Charming, calculating, and exhibits one sided devotion to the one she serves
    Major Introduction Event: Leads a raid into the priory deepvaults and steals a very very dangerous artifact. Player asked to help retrieve it.
    Motivations and Reasons for Actions: Was enslaved at a young age to separatists during the war with the charr. Was forced to work in mines, dig rare minerals and metals to help to arm human resistances that opposed the charr alliance. Was freed when a dragon attacked and wiped out her captors. Became fascinated with elder dragons and after discovering that they feed on magic, began stealing powerful artifacts as an offering to the dragons she is obsessed with.
    Ending Plot Arc: Does not understand that she is just an ant to the dragons, during her attempt to offer her stolen cache of magic artifacts to an elder dragon she becomes corrupted. Tragically defeated by the commander in a final battle and dies with the understanding that they dragons didn't even recognize her or what she was doing. She simply gathered enough magical power in one location to attract one due to its hunger and was corrupted as a result.

    3.) Simplify Metaphysics, provide dragons with motivations
    Metaphysics of Tyria NEED to be simplified. The Dragons are already personified so there is no going back. I would explain to players CLEARLY that Tyria works this way:

    A.) Tyria is a nexus in the mist, a place where magical energy gathers just like a black hole. As a result the planet is very rich in raw magical power.

    B.) The dragons are old and ancient creatures that are trying to ascend to the next level of existence (draconic ascension). The saw this black hold gathering power they need to consume to ascend and made the decision to basically camp Tyria until it gathers enough magical power from the mists for them to consume all at once and finally leave this world. So they came here, went to sleep and created champions to tend things while they waited. Every now and then they would wake up and consume everything to ensure that no civilizations interfered with their plans. They also divided themselves into aspects such as "plants/mind/death" to create balance between each other so they can ensure each of them gets enough magical food to ascend. Think of it as a gentleman's agreement. Zhaitan you get all the undead energy, I as mordremoth get all the plants.

    C.) The human gods came and messed everything up. The humans took the magical power at Artesian waters in Tyra for themselves, became gods and used that power to create their own realms. Dragons then woke up and went, oh kitten there isn't enough power left because it was all taken. The dragons began turning against each other and "branding/corrupting" everything they can to "claim" the magical power for themselves before the other dragons could. The gentleman's code is out the window because with the gods and the bloodstones sucking up all the magic they tried to hoard, they know not all of them are going to the next level.

    D.) Knowing they were the center of the problem, human gods fled to their respective realms to defend themselves and their powers, leaving Tyria at the mercy of the dragons.

    E.) Gods and dragons eventually at war. Alliances are made, some turn against each other. Lesser races are just trying to survive.

    F.) Major plot revelation when Dwayna comes to her senses and freely gives her divinity up to an elder dragon (maybe bubbles, who might actually be an ok dragon) so that it can ascend peacefully. She becomes mortal, the truth of the world and "eternal alchemy" is revealed. Not all gods and dragons are peaceful, there are grudges and self-interests. The story is not to be centered on this conflict, but the fallout and struggles of the mortal races caught in this chaos.

    G.) Goals fulfilled: Metaphysics explained simply, conflict created, dragons/gods understood, relationships/motivations understood. Scenario creates ample problems for the player to solve.

    Note that the "scope" of the players involvement in all this needs to be reduced. We should not be the end all be all trying to save the 100 multiverses. Just saving one town is enough. Just saving and helping the party members that we like the most is enough. Let the much bigger conflict unfold at a higher level, involving players in key points that take months or years to build up to. Players don't need to be the night king or Jon snow during the final battle every time. Just being a soldier with your own motivations is good enough.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13, 2019

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    There really is no difference between the voice and motives of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Kralk. They have no personality and either should not have been personified in the first place (they could have remained mysterious) or their personalities should have been properly thought out and properly storyboarded.

    First you complain they have too much personality. Then you complain they don't have enough.

    I would disagree that the three are the same, though. And the same goes for the other two Elder Dragons we know about. Each of them are fairly distinct in their personality, even if the means to their goal is ultimately "corrupt and kill civilizations".

    What they do is fairly similar. Why and how they do it, differs pretty greatly.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    There are no simple explanations of why dragons need to corrupt in the first place (which would be find if they were NOT personified and just remained mysterious eldritch horrors). I think this hurts the plot because 70% of the plot is trying to explain complex and overly convoluted fantasy physics rather than real plot development.

    The point is that the Elder Dragon's done need to corrupt. They chose to. If that hurts the plot, then I guess the plot's not for you.

    Personally speaking, I'd rather have a villain I can comprehend - not necessarily relate to or find reasonable, but can understand the personality existing - than to have a this effectivel yfaceless force to confront. ArenaNet tried that with Zhaitan, while giving underlying shows of a personality, and imo, those underlying shows are infinitely more interesting than "oh, it's some large powerful force of death we can kill".

    If the Elder Dragons were merely forces of nature out in the world that Tyrians had to survive, and not actually the target of the game, then go on with eldritch horrorification. But the main point of the Lovecraftian eldritch horror motif is that they cannot be harmed or lessened in any way.

    The very moment you oppose an eldritch horror with some realistic way of winning, it ceases to be an elditch horror. The Elder Dragons being elditch horrors ceased to be the moment we hear "Zhaitan is the main enemy of the initial release" back in 2009.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    The whole "tyrian balance model" and "eternal alchemy of fancy glowing lights" is really not understood by anyone other than the behind the scenes plot writers. Nothing about these metaphysics is conveyed well and we just get pointless visions then additional plot points that assume we have the faintest idea of what this model means. Metaphyiscs being the primary driver for the plot is just... so anime and just plain bad these days.

    It's actually pretty easy to understand at the moment. So long as the writers don't add asanine details it's in a good spot. Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean it isn't comprehensible.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    3.) Flat Characters with no Interplay between each other

    That was indeed an issue in HoT and Season 3. I don't think it's much of an issue in Season 4 though, not sure how it really relates to Season 5.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    I mean where was Kasmeer's total freak out and church girl breakdown after balth goes bad?

    Where was it? It was in Flashpoint, when she fell to the ground in disbelief then portaled out. It was also in Path of Fire's first and second act, pretty heavily pointed out, with how she kept on speaking about and to the priests of Kormir, and then Kormir herself.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    Gwen pops in up in LS5 as a ghost aiding the group and says NOTHING to Logan Thackary while she is there?

    Why would she? She has no relevance to her great, great grandchild. Logan doesn't need any words of advice. He's doing good, and she has no connection to him besides blood.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    4.) Death is cheap in Tyria

    It bother's me how little death matters with so many dead entities (Koss, Glint, Gwen, the Main Character themselves) dying and coming back in some form or another. Dead should mean dead. When you cheapen death and bring people back you really hurt long term plots and your ability to make impacts. I mean if a character dies and we go "oh they will just come back later" we might as well be in the comic book universe. The whole deal with the commander dying and coming back so easily just cheapens death as a whole, which is dangerous for any story because your audience just stops caring or feels no impact when people get knocked-off.

    Generally I hate hate hate resurrection plots unless the sacrifice is astronomically great and felt across the central characters for the remainder of the story. Coming back from the end needs to always come with huge penalties that are unrecoverable. Better yet, if you kill someone in the story -make it meaningful and keep them dead. Bringing back anyone just cheapens their character unless its done for a really really good reason.

    Death being considered "cheap" was why they made resurrection a lost art in the lore. Koss being undead is a bit different, in all honesty, and once he dies he's dead for good.

    Souls coming back from the afterlife, something unique to this plot because we're dealing with the afterlife is not going to be a long term thing. I think you're making a mountain out of a hill with this "death is cheap".

    I mean, we have a kitten festival where a guy who's been dead for 500 years returns annually to prank the living. In GW1, Mad King Thorn actually killed people just to resurrect the moments later. But that doesn't make the deaths of Tybalt, Glint, or Eir and less important. Because outside of that one festival, the ability of ghosts returning to Tyria from the Mists is practically "super special circumstances only" (which, btw, we're in).

    The Mists is literally the afterlife. Your complaint would be like claiming death is cheap in reality because we just confirmed heaven and hell exists. The end times in various beliefs has the souls of the dead returning to do xyz in the world. Does that make death cheap? Will it not matter if someone shoots you in the head tomorrow, because hey, there's a heaven.

    I don't think it does.

  • @lordhelmos.7623 said:

    1.) On the Subject of Dragons:

    Let me draw a comparison here between Gw2 Dragons and HP Lovercraft. When HP Lovecraft first created the cosmic horrors, he did so with the intention that they were not good or evil but simply just "different." The grand idea behind lovecraft's works were that cosmic horrors were supposed to be beyond human understanding. They simple go on with tasks and motives that are incomprehensible to us. While they don't really go out of there way to annihilate us, if we just happen to be under their foot when they are taking a step then we just get crushed. Humans are that small to them. In the beginning the Gw2 Dragons were supposed to be portrayed in the same way. They were supposed to be "forces of nature" whose thinking was supposed to be incomprehensible.

    I think that one difference might be that while Lovecraft's Great Old Ones were alien in the truest sense of the word, the ED's are (apparently) part of Tyria's peculiar magical ecosystem. At least, that's how I interpret "The Movement of the World". I was always rather hoping that the story would someday explore their true origins but I'm not sure that will ever happen.

    It seems to me that Anet has wavered a bit when it comes to defining the game's villain(s), and the story has suffered as a result. At first it was the dragons, then it was a mad Sylvari who turned out to be a servant of a dragon we had not heard of---and indeed, he never really seemed to fit in the draconic pantheon the way the others have. Of course, we know now that Mordy was shoehorned in to give the Sylvari an origin story. While the storytelling results were mixed, it certainly made playing through on a Sylvari character interesting.

    Then we had the double whammy: Killing the dragons is a bad idea, and now one of the gods wants to take out the rest of them. In the process of dealing with this we learn that we're not going to get any help in our fight against the rogue god, because the rest of them have left. It's just us and our new friend, a baby dragon whose "grandfather" we have to defend against the rogue god. And we prevail, although Gramps doesn't seem inclined to view us any more kindly because of this. Indeed, it seems we have to kill him anyway. And last week we saw how that ended. Is it any wonder our last line in the story is "I don't know"?

    Wherever the GW2 story goes next, it needs to get focused. If you don't have a good villain, you don't have a good story.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knuckle Joe.7408 said:
    The thing that bothered me the most of all is that Braham was able to whitstand and save us from what it looked like a hyper-charged, point blank blast from Kralka himself, and not only that, but it also was charged with the power of Mordremoth, Balthazar and Zhaitan while Aurene could not take one from a weakened Kralk. Srsly? Am I missing something or was that utter bull.

    Also Aurene is by far more "powered" them Braham, since se "absorbed" some magic from Balthy and Joko.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    About OP topic, i agree almost with 2 theres too many terminology, for many things that are sometimes different things and sometimes they are the same thing. in LS2 we talked almost "ley line energy", now theres "unbound magic" "dragon magic", "gods magic". sometimes it looks like Dragon Ball Z, where everything is "energy", and sometimes with Yuyu-Hakusho where one has "divine energy", "energy of monsters" and so on.

    Tannhauser Engineer(SoS) | Atlantean Sword | Khel the Undead

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    About OP topic, i agree almost with 2 theres too many terminology, for many things that are sometimes different things and sometimes they are the same thing. in LS2 we talked almost "ley line energy", now theres "unbound magic" "dragon magic", "gods magic". sometimes it looks like Dragon Ball Z, where everything is "energy", and sometimes with Yuyu-Hakusho where one has "divine energy", "energy of monsters" and so on.

    In all honesty, it just boils down to "magic from Tyria that corrupts" versus "magic from Tyria that doesn't corrupt" versus "magic not from Tyria".

    TL;DR there's three real types of magic, no more no less. The rest is just different states of those three, like liquid, solid, and gas states of water/ice/vapor.

  • lordhelmos.7623lordhelmos.7623 Member ✭✭
    edited January 14, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    About OP topic, i agree almost with 2 theres too many terminology, for many things that are sometimes different things and sometimes they are the same thing. in LS2 we talked almost "ley line energy", now theres "unbound magic" "dragon magic", "gods magic". sometimes it looks like Dragon Ball Z, where everything is "energy", and sometimes with Yuyu-Hakusho where one has "divine energy", "energy of monsters" and so on.

    In all honesty, it just boils down to "magic from Tyria that corrupts" versus "magic from Tyria that doesn't corrupt" versus "magic not from Tyria".

    TL;DR there's three real types of magic, no more no less. The rest is just different states of those three, like liquid, solid, and gas states of water/ice/vapor.

    Actually I don't think its that simple. Let's try to understand magic in guildwars 2 for a moment:

    1.) You have the mists, which all things are made of. Magic is a part of the mists. Magic/the mists exist in all things in creation.
    2.) Tyria is a nexus of mist energy, so naturally it accumulates alot of magic which is somehow drawn from the mists -the chaotic and unformed nebulas of all creation.
    3.) Magic seems to be usable to form mist energy into things. E.g., how the human gods took magic from Tyria and used it to forge their own realms.
    4.) Magic is like energy, mist is like matter.
    5.) Old human scholars attempted to classify magic into these domains (e.g. preservation)
    6.) Magic has veins and rivers that go through Tyria, think lifestream from final fantasy.
    7.) Dragons devour and corrupt magic when awake. Not sure what the purpose of corruption is if they simply want to eat magic. Its not like dragons eat their own minions so why would they waste food by corrupting it instead of eating it? Corruption generally makes no sense.
    8.) Dragons bleed magic back into the world when sleeping.
    9.) Dragons themselves categorize magic into several facets (plants, minds, etc.) which is different than the human domains and is probably more correct.
    10.) Bloodstones are artificial creations that trap magic, e.g. giant batteries.
    11.) This whole natural ecosystem of dragons waking up eating all magic and life, then leaking it back into the world is known as the Eternal Alchemy. Apparently this is just how things are and if you kill dragons you disrupt the natural order and possibly end the world due to chaotic and unchecked magic going out of control. Also in the eternal alchemy model why is the Pale Tree involved when all she is just a dragon champion spawned by Mordy? Again no sense.

    There is no "inside of Tyria magic" and "outside of Tyra magic." Magic is just magic, just like energy is energy regardless of where it comes from. Tyria just seems to be a magical gravity well that has a high concentration of it. Mists and magic seems related just like matter and energy but how each is created is not explored. Magic seems to come from the mists -or is related to it.

    All of this is generally overly convoluted. The model makes no sense, corruption makes no sense (again why corrupt if you eat?), the relationship between mists and magic makes no sense.

    Metaphysical fantasy is one of the biggest pitfalls in the genre and it is something you want to avoid at all costs. It's a deep rabbit hole where there is no end. Magical metaphysics should be explained with simple "rules" that don't need an elaborate Ph D. to understand. People coming into a fantasy world understand that there is at least some element of "suspending your belief."

    Trying to science magic is just... never a good idea. Magic is magic because its not fully understandable. It's a plot device for having cool mechanics that otherwise would be impossible with normal understood physics.

    Its's not important for something to make metaphysical sense but it has to make logical sense. Going too far down metaphysics makes logical sense harder to achieve. Look at Gw2 with a ton of scienced magic metaphysics but from a logical viewpoint. If I'm a dragon and I want to eat magic, why do I corrupt things instead? Why am I not eating my own minions?

    Make logical sense before you try to make metaphysical sense.

  • @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    1.) You have the mists, which all things are made of. Magic is a part of the mists. Magic/the mists exist in all things in creation.

    We don't know this, technically speaking. While magic exists in the Mists surrounding Tyria, does it exist elsewhere? There's no proof.

    A long while back, Angel McCoy made a comment on the forums stating that the human homeworld had so little magic in it, that humans finding magic in Tyria led them to believe that the Six Gods made said magic.

    2.) Tyria is a nexus of mist energy, so naturally it accumulates alot of magic which is somehow drawn from the mists -the chaotic and unformed nebulas of all creation.

    And where do you get this, exactly? The only context we have for "mist energy" is basically what Fractals are made out of and what powers revenant channeling abilities. Both of which are explicitly non-Tyria, which very much counters the notion that Tyria is a nexus of mist energy.

    The very fact that revenant magic is a brand new thing, actually indicates that prior to Heart of Thorns "mist magic" is so uncommon in Tyria that it was unknown to most people. Note: not all, as Exalted recognize the magic, and their knowledge comes from the Forgotten, but most.

    3.) Magic seems to be usable to form mist energy into things. E.g., how the human gods took magic from Tyria and used it to forge their own realms.

    This statement is 100% speculation. Nothing indicates that the Six forged the afterlifes, especially since the Spirit of the Wilds has some domain over them too; and nothing indicates that, outside manipulating the Bloodstone, the Six Gods took magic from Tyria. On top of that, see response to 2 about mist energy in Tyria.

    4.) Magic is like energy, mist is like matter.

    Technically the Mists is made of proto-matter which takes on a mist-like form, hence the name "The Mists".

    5.) Old human scholars attempted to classify magic into these domains (e.g. preservation)

    Because back then it was split into those domains. The Bloodstones were indeed divided by types of magic. But all this magic was ultimately "Tyrian magic". Hence my original statement: There are, by indication, three overarching types of magic. Beyond that is just just categorization of those overarching types.

    "Mist magic", "Ley energy", and "Dragon magic/draconic energy" are basically the highest taxonomy ranking for magic classification. And for all intents and purposes, it's the only one people really need to know.

    7.) Dragons devour and corrupt magic when awake. Not sure what the purpose of corruption is if they simply want to eat magic. Its not like dragons eat their own minions so why would they waste food by corrupting it instead of eating it? Corruption generally makes no sense.

    Because no Elder Dragon's goal is to devour magic. Devouring magic and spreading corruption is a means to an end. But this gets into an entirely different topic.

    Also, you seem to think that Elder Dragons eat magic as a food source. They don't.

    9.) Dragons themselves categorize magic into several facets (plants, minds, etc.) which is different than the human domains and is probably more correct.

    Given lore, it is no more correct or incorrect than having a subclass of the class reptilia being different than a subclass in the class mammalia in biology.

    11.) This whole natural ecosystem of dragons waking up eating all magic and life, then leaking it back into the world is known as the Eternal Alchemy. Apparently this is just how things are and if you kill dragons you disrupt the natural order and possibly end the world due to chaotic and unchecked magic going out of control. Also in the eternal alchemy model why is the Pale Tree involved when all she is just a dragon champion spawned by Mordy? Again no sense.

    Wrong.

    The Eternal Alchemy is the interconnections and purposes of all living things in the entire universe (if not multiverse).

    The function of six domains of influence and the regulation of magic is denoted as the Antikytheria, or for short, The All.

    The Eternal Alchemy deals with the universe, with all things; The All just deals with Tyria's systems.

    The Pale Tree isn't part of The All, by the way. You're likely mistaking Scarlet's drawing in Dry Top as a proper representation of The All when it's not. What's in the center is confirmed in Hidden Arcana to be Tyria itself, the world. The Pale Tree's only relation to The All is that it tried to prevent Scarlet from seeing it. It functioned as the gateway and barrier between a sylvari and witnessing The All. That's why she's involved in that vision from Omadd's Machine the Commander gets, which is just a repeat of Scarlet's vision.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    There is no "inside of Tyria magic" and "outside of Tyra magic." Magic is just magic, just like energy is energy regardless of where it comes from. Tyria just seems to be a magical gravity well that has a high concentration of it. Mists and magic seems related just like matter and energy but how each is created is not explored. Magic seems to come from the mists -or is related to it.

    Literally everything we know disagrees with this. Magic from the Mists has shown to be largely incorruptible by the Elder Dragons, for example. Some of it even counteracts corruption. Forgotten magic, and in turn the Exalted, Kormir's protective spell over Sun's Refuge, Divine Fire, etc. are all examples of "Mist energy" that counteracts Elder Dragon magic.

    This means that Tyrian magic != Mists magic. In the same way that reptiles != mammals.

    Also, nothing creates The Mists. It's the origin of all things, it is protomatter that makes anything else.

    And Tyrian magic seems to be a closed system, neither increasing nor decreasing. Never being created. It merely moves from being "in Tyria" to being "in dragons" or some other containment vessel, such as the Bloodstones.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    All of this is generally overly convoluted. The model makes no sense, corruption makes no sense (again why corrupt if you eat?), the relationship between mists and magic makes no sense.

    It's a categorization tree. "Magic" categorizes into three things (Ley energy, draconic energy, Mist energy), each then categorizes into a few other things, which categorizes once more, before being split into individual spells.

    You're problem seems to be that you're not seeing this tree of categorization, and think it's all on the same level, rather than being on different layers of different relations And a categorization tree is far from convoluted, let alone overly so.

    @lordhelmos.7623 said:
    Trying to science magic is just... never a good idea. Magic is magic because its not fully understandable. It's a plot device for having cool mechanics that otherwise would be impossible with normal understood physics.

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

    But the reverse holds true to:
    Any sufficiently studied magic is indistinguishable from technology.

    Magic is not magic because it is not fully understandable. Magic is such because it is not fully understood.

    But that's solely from the perspective of reality. In the perspective of fantasy, magic is simply an alternative to technology, understood or not. It is a means to defy the natural laws, just as technology is, it merely goes a different route.

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