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Why do skilled roamers avoid fighting other skilled roamers?


EremiteAngel.9765

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@lodjur.1284 said:

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

Roaming's purpose is to kill players, taking objectives is a way to lure people out, if objectives are your primary goal you're doing something else (not meant as a bad thing just not the same thing).

in that case i am very often not roaming, but doing
something
else. you will hardly be able to tell the difference tho, as the difference is just my intention.

Then I guess you aren't, but the term generally doesn't refer to people who primarily cap small objectives (as their goal,while the goal for a roamer would be to find fights).

no, just taking objectives is not the goal. taking the objective from someone is the goal. so i like to take objectives that my opponent wants to protect. that doesnt have to inculde an actually fight tho. and i usually go for towers/keeps. camps are just for supplies and sentries to help me track opponents, i dont see how taking them would be anything worth a primary goal - its just too easy, like killing other players.

Well if you're talking keeps that's def not roaming. Playing objectives is the opposite of roaming. Especially if taking them doesn't lead to a fight.

Killing other players here generally means finding satisfying fights, that can be a 1v3 vs bads or an 1v1 with a good player or w/e else kinda PvP one finds fun, even if it's something not challenging like instabursting semi-afk people from stealth.

How is easy or not isn't really relevant to what it is, roaming is just a name for when you're very few people (max 2 maybe 3) and your goal is to find fights and you couldn't care less for the objectives/scoreboard.

thats what roaming is to you. but that i guess is a big issue on this forum, there is no definition of what roaming is, that everyone does agree on. that makes it very hard to discuss anything roaming related.

Well very few people refer to objective players really when talking roamers. Most discussions I see are related to the size of the group.if its just groupsize, then i am a roamer tho. even when playing for objectives.

I am not saying it's groupsize primarily. I am saying what people disagree on when it comes to roaming is generally groupsize.

However the vast majority of discussions I see come with the viewpoint that roaming is the opposite of playing for objectives.

i dont think opposite is the correct term for it, but i guess i understand your view.that explains why people are so upset with 'roaming balance', if you play by your own rules within a set mode you cant really expect it to be balanced around your rules.as said above the fight as such is nearly impossible to balance as it will mostly be decided by kiting ability/range advantage. now one can be upset about that, if that is the only thing you care for. but once you play for objectives, once you play for score regardless of groupsize, then the professions are much more balanced and mostly the population inbalance will be your issue. and you can 'win' in your goals despite losing a fight.

Yet quite a few people are just interested in having good fights and think the score is just a number they personally can't affect (to a relevant degree).

You must realize a lot of roamers don't even stomp but just cleave downs after winning fights because they just genuinely couldn't care less about the scoreboard. I am included in this category.

The problem is if there's no scoreboard/objectives etc there's noone to fight. But roaming balance doesn't have to be at odds with objective balance, the changes needed to the dominant classes in roaming could be compensated with changes that make them better at objective fighting (mostly more tankiness at the cost of mobility/range).

I can personally feel satisfied after losing a fight too if I got the opportunity to play well and did so (and it some degree mattered). However losing a fight after not getting the opportunity to actually play well is insanely frustrating in a way that makes you not wanna bother to continue posting while losing a fight when you had the opportunity to play well but didn't is frustrating in a completely different and much less exhausting way.

but dont you see that the only reason it is frustrating is because you only care about the fight and not about the reason to fight? the moment you priorize the objectives, you will approach fights differently and IMO as the professions are much more balanced that way it is less frustrating, wich usually results in more fun. having more tankiness at the cost of mobility / range will force you to approach objectives in a different way, you basically limit the diversity and options you have only to cater to people who ignore half of the mode they play.

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@lodjur.1284 said:Playing objectives is the opposite of roaming. Especially if taking them doesn't lead to a fight.

That's the thing with community defined rules. They can vary from person to person. I consider this roaming as long as you're doing it alone or with >5 friends. It only becomes havoc when you're deliberately trying to snipe undefended objectives.

Trying to take defended objectives, or soloing them, is still roaming to me in the sense that you're trying to pull fights and being a nuisance. I used to do this almost exclusively pre-HoT when I would roam on my trapper Ranger. Soloing towers/camps, destroying siege in towers/keeps and hanging around enemy spawns/keeps was how I roamed. I'm not sure what else that could be called because I've never heard of solo havoc and PPT roaming is pretty much another phrase for it.

@lodjur.1284 said:Yet quite a few people are just interested in having good fights and think the score is just a number they personally can't affect (to a relevant degree).

Also, @"MUDse.7623" might just do the same thing I used to do. It's not about the score, it's about being such a colossal pest that pugs will dedicate a small army to your presence when you become infamous enough. All someone needs to do is say "that ( guild tag/rank/profession here ) is at X tower again" and 10+ people will show up because they hate you.

After I stopped trying to solo towers, I became a sniper with Engi Magnet in zergs. I would pull everyone I could manage and would snipe commanders if I had permission from my own. I know lots of people hated it but that's the point. It makes them dedicate players to my presence and it becomes fun for them when they kill me. I don't care if they siege bury me, I have fun being annoying and I know when they finally murder me they're suddenly having fun too. This is a little different than roaming but, to me, a successful roamer is an annoying one. And that can be through various means such as stealing towers/camps, perma-contesting keeps, harassing spawns and forcing multiple players to waste a ton of time chasing you around.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

Roaming's purpose is to kill players, taking objectives is a way to lure people out, if objectives are your primary goal you're doing something else (not meant as a bad thing just not the same thing).

in that case i am very often not roaming, but doing
something
else. you will hardly be able to tell the difference tho, as the difference is just my intention.

Then I guess you aren't, but the term generally doesn't refer to people who primarily cap small objectives (as their goal,while the goal for a roamer would be to find fights).

no, just taking objectives is not the goal. taking the objective from someone is the goal. so i like to take objectives that my opponent wants to protect. that doesnt have to inculde an actually fight tho. and i usually go for towers/keeps. camps are just for supplies and sentries to help me track opponents, i dont see how taking them would be anything worth a primary goal - its just too easy, like killing other players.

Well if you're talking keeps that's def not roaming. Playing objectives is the opposite of roaming. Especially if taking them doesn't lead to a fight.

Killing other players here generally means finding satisfying fights, that can be a 1v3 vs bads or an 1v1 with a good player or w/e else kinda PvP one finds fun, even if it's something not challenging like instabursting semi-afk people from stealth.

How is easy or not isn't really relevant to what it is, roaming is just a name for when you're very few people (max 2 maybe 3) and your goal is to find fights and you couldn't care less for the objectives/scoreboard.

thats what roaming is to you. but that i guess is a big issue on this forum, there is no definition of what roaming is, that everyone does agree on. that makes it very hard to discuss anything roaming related.

Well very few people refer to objective players really when talking roamers. Most discussions I see are related to the size of the group.if its just groupsize, then i am a roamer tho. even when playing for objectives.

I am not saying it's groupsize primarily. I am saying what people disagree on when it comes to roaming is generally groupsize.

However the vast majority of discussions I see come with the viewpoint that roaming is the opposite of playing for objectives.

i dont think opposite is the correct term for it, but i guess i understand your view.that explains why people are so upset with 'roaming balance', if you play by your own rules within a set mode you cant really expect it to be balanced around your rules.as said above the fight as such is nearly impossible to balance as it will mostly be decided by kiting ability/range advantage. now one can be upset about that, if that is the only thing you care for. but once you play for objectives, once you play for score regardless of groupsize, then the professions are much more balanced and mostly the population inbalance will be your issue. and you can 'win' in your goals despite losing a fight.

Yet quite a few people are just interested in having good fights and think the score is just a number they personally can't affect (to a relevant degree).

You must realize a lot of roamers don't even stomp but just cleave downs after winning fights because they just genuinely couldn't care less about the scoreboard. I am included in this category.

The problem is if there's no scoreboard/objectives etc there's noone to fight. But roaming balance doesn't have to be at odds with objective balance, the changes needed to the dominant classes in roaming could be compensated with changes that make them better at objective fighting (mostly more tankiness at the cost of mobility/range).

I can personally feel satisfied after losing a fight too if I got the opportunity to play well and did so (and it some degree mattered). However losing a fight after not getting the opportunity to actually play well is insanely frustrating in a way that makes you not wanna bother to continue posting while losing a fight when you had the opportunity to play well but didn't is frustrating in a completely different and much less exhausting way.

but dont you see that the only reason it is frustrating is because you only care about the fight and not about the reason to fight? the moment you priorize the objectives, you will approach fights differently and IMO as the professions are much more balanced that way it is less frustrating, wich usually results in more fun. having more tankiness at the cost of mobility / range will force you to approach objectives in a different way, you basically limit the diversity and options you have only to cater to people who ignore half of the mode they play.

Well given that WvW doesn't actually reward you for "winning" with anything else than pride/satisfaction/fun it is a bit weird to say someone is playing it wrong. It's a gamemode where everyone sets their own goals kinda, it's not like there aren't quite a few roamers, even if it's ofc less than objective players.

To me the only fun part about wvw is having encounters where a combination of my build, my skill, my knowledge and my teamwork (when applicable) matters. This very often means taking towers or whatever, but I have lost many objectives and still imo won. Objective playing is just to me the opposite of this, I don't judge anyone for liking it, but I really can't stomach it.

Would changing this to some degree reduce build diversity, in some scenarios possibly, but it would also massively increase it in other scenarios. Roaming is dominated by these professions to an almost ridiculous degree, I don't by any means demand perfect balance, just something more balanced and less obnoxious than this 2-shot hit-n-run meta.

It's okay with me if the balance isn't great or even good, but no class should be able to pick all their encounters nor should any class have 5+ matchups that are in the 95/5 range. Nor should any class be able to disengage from basically every fight they lose without any risk.

TL;DR I can't find objectives fun and I want how I play to matter in more fights.

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@"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Playing objectives is the opposite of roaming. Especially if taking them doesn't lead to a fight.

That's the thing with community defined rules. They can vary from person to person. I consider this roaming as long as you're doing it alone or with >5 friends. It only becomes havoc when you're deliberately trying to snipe undefended objectives.

Trying to take defended objectives, or soloing them, is still roaming to me in the sense that you're trying to pull fights and being a nuisance. I used to do this almost exclusively pre-HoT when I would roam on my trapper Ranger. Soloing towers/camps, destroying siege in towers/keeps and hanging around enemy spawns/keeps was how I roamed. I'm not sure what else that could be called because I've never heard of solo havoc and PPT roaming is pretty much another phrase for it.

@lodjur.1284 said:Yet quite a few people are just interested in having good fights and think the score is just a number they personally can't affect (to a relevant degree).

Also, @"MUDse.7623" might just do the same thing I used to do. It's not about the score, it's about being such a colossal pest that pugs will dedicate a small army to your presence when you become infamous enough. All someone needs to do is say "that ( guild tag/rank/profession here ) is at X tower again" and 10+ people will show up because they hate you.

After I stopped trying to solo towers, I became a sniper with Engi Magnet in zergs. I would pull everyone I could manage and would snipe commanders if I had permission from my own. I know lots of people hated it but that's the point. It makes them dedicate players to my presence and it becomes fun for them when they kill me. I don't care if they siege bury me, I have fun being annoying and I know when they finally murder me they're suddenly having fun too. This is a little different than roaming but, to me, a successful roamer is an annoying one. And that can be through various means such as stealing towers/camps, perma-contesting keeps, harassing spawns and forcing multiple players to waste a ton of time chasing you around.

Imo to me you're basically describing the one person player version of a havoc group, you play the objectives by making people waste 5+ players chasing down 1 person. PPT roaming also works I suppose but then there's no term for the kinda roaming most people mean, which is quite different.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

Roaming's purpose is to kill players, taking objectives is a way to lure people out, if objectives are your primary goal you're doing something else (not meant as a bad thing just not the same thing).

in that case i am very often not roaming, but doing
something
else. you will hardly be able to tell the difference tho, as the difference is just my intention.

Then I guess you aren't, but the term generally doesn't refer to people who primarily cap small objectives (as their goal,while the goal for a roamer would be to find fights).

no, just taking objectives is not the goal. taking the objective from someone is the goal. so i like to take objectives that my opponent wants to protect. that doesnt have to inculde an actually fight tho. and i usually go for towers/keeps. camps are just for supplies and sentries to help me track opponents, i dont see how taking them would be anything worth a primary goal - its just too easy, like killing other players.

Well if you're talking keeps that's def not roaming. Playing objectives is the opposite of roaming. Especially if taking them doesn't lead to a fight.

Killing other players here generally means finding satisfying fights, that can be a 1v3 vs bads or an 1v1 with a good player or w/e else kinda PvP one finds fun, even if it's something not challenging like instabursting semi-afk people from stealth.

How is easy or not isn't really relevant to what it is, roaming is just a name for when you're very few people (max 2 maybe 3) and your goal is to find fights and you couldn't care less for the objectives/scoreboard.

thats what roaming is to you. but that i guess is a big issue on this forum, there is no definition of what roaming is, that everyone does agree on. that makes it very hard to discuss anything roaming related.

Well very few people refer to objective players really when talking roamers. Most discussions I see are related to the size of the group.if its just groupsize, then i am a roamer tho. even when playing for objectives.

I am not saying it's groupsize primarily. I am saying what people disagree on when it comes to roaming is generally groupsize.

However the vast majority of discussions I see come with the viewpoint that roaming is the opposite of playing for objectives.

i dont think opposite is the correct term for it, but i guess i understand your view.that explains why people are so upset with 'roaming balance', if you play by your own rules within a set mode you cant really expect it to be balanced around your rules.as said above the fight as such is nearly impossible to balance as it will mostly be decided by kiting ability/range advantage. now one can be upset about that, if that is the only thing you care for. but once you play for objectives, once you play for score regardless of groupsize, then the professions are much more balanced and mostly the population inbalance will be your issue. and you can 'win' in your goals despite losing a fight.

Yet quite a few people are just interested in having good fights and think the score is just a number they personally can't affect (to a relevant degree).

You must realize a lot of roamers don't even stomp but just cleave downs after winning fights because they just genuinely couldn't care less about the scoreboard. I am included in this category.

The problem is if there's no scoreboard/objectives etc there's noone to fight. But roaming balance doesn't have to be at odds with objective balance, the changes needed to the dominant classes in roaming could be compensated with changes that make them better at objective fighting (mostly more tankiness at the cost of mobility/range).

I can personally feel satisfied after losing a fight too if I got the opportunity to play well and did so (and it some degree mattered). However losing a fight after not getting the opportunity to actually play well is insanely frustrating in a way that makes you not wanna bother to continue posting while losing a fight when you had the opportunity to play well but didn't is frustrating in a completely different and much less exhausting way.

but dont you see that the only reason it is frustrating is because you only care about the fight and not about the reason to fight? the moment you priorize the objectives, you will approach fights differently and IMO as the professions are much more balanced that way it is less frustrating, wich usually results in more fun. having more tankiness at the cost of mobility / range will force you to approach objectives in a different way, you basically limit the diversity and options you have only to cater to people who ignore half of the mode they play.

Well given that WvW doesn't actually reward you for "winning" with anything else than pride/satisfaction/fun it is a bit weird to say someone is playing it wrong. It's a gamemode where everyone sets their own goals kinda, it's not like there aren't quite a few roamers, even if it's ofc less than objective players.

winning doesnt have to reward you for it to be the thing the game is balanced around.

the main reason winning cannot reward you is because of a dilemma situation with the population/coverage, it is nearly impossible to grant balanced coverage of these large teams wich would be required for a balanced match over 168 hours. yet reducing the match duration and making new 'balanced' teams for shorter matches (example 2 hours), would destroy too much of the community that has been build. maybe alliances is the first step to enable faster matches with balanced teams in the long run.

playing efficiently towards 'winning' the match has still more sense in it that running around looking for 'good' fights. because given what restrictions a fight has to be considered 'good' by many, they can be lucky if they get 1 per matchup. that doesnt mean that it is 'wrong' to only go for fights, i mean its your buisness, but IMO the chances that you enjoy that mode are much higher if you embrace all of it, just give it a try.

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@"EremiteAngel.9765" said:The roaming community is small and for veteran roamers, many of the above average roaming players and guilds are pretty much well known across all the servers.One trend I've been seeing though, while playing and watching live streams on twitch, is that skilled roamers avoid fighting each other a lot.They run around the map, bump into each other, recognize each other from guild tag, looks etc. and move pass or detour without fighting.Then when they encounter a pug who might just be a zergling or a less skilled roamer, they jump on them and stomp them into the ground and thump their chest howling in victory.

The vibe I get from skilled roamers who avoid fighting each other is like "Hey I know you're good and you know I'm good. So lets not risk fighting each other."Its like...why?!Isn't it more exciting to fight another skilled roamer than to stomp on a pug?

Question... what difference does it make what a person does, or does not do, when they log in to play? why are you asking us on the forums anyway? who knows what an individual streamer is thinking, so you could just ask them directly on their twitch streams right?

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@MUDse.7623 said:

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

Roaming's purpose is to kill players, taking objectives is a way to lure people out, if objectives are your primary goal you're doing something else (not meant as a bad thing just not the same thing).

in that case i am very often not roaming, but doing
something
else. you will hardly be able to tell the difference tho, as the difference is just my intention.

Then I guess you aren't, but the term generally doesn't refer to people who primarily cap small objectives (as their goal,while the goal for a roamer would be to find fights).

no, just taking objectives is not the goal. taking the objective from someone is the goal. so i like to take objectives that my opponent wants to protect. that doesnt have to inculde an actually fight tho. and i usually go for towers/keeps. camps are just for supplies and sentries to help me track opponents, i dont see how taking them would be anything worth a primary goal - its just too easy, like killing other players.

Well if you're talking keeps that's def not roaming. Playing objectives is the opposite of roaming. Especially if taking them doesn't lead to a fight.

Killing other players here generally means finding satisfying fights, that can be a 1v3 vs bads or an 1v1 with a good player or w/e else kinda PvP one finds fun, even if it's something not challenging like instabursting semi-afk people from stealth.

How is easy or not isn't really relevant to what it is, roaming is just a name for when you're very few people (max 2 maybe 3) and your goal is to find fights and you couldn't care less for the objectives/scoreboard.

thats what roaming is to you. but that i guess is a big issue on this forum, there is no definition of what roaming is, that everyone does agree on. that makes it very hard to discuss anything roaming related.

Well very few people refer to objective players really when talking roamers. Most discussions I see are related to the size of the group.if its just groupsize, then i am a roamer tho. even when playing for objectives.

I am not saying it's groupsize primarily. I am saying what people disagree on when it comes to roaming is generally groupsize.

However the vast majority of discussions I see come with the viewpoint that roaming is the opposite of playing for objectives.

i dont think opposite is the correct term for it, but i guess i understand your view.that explains why people are so upset with 'roaming balance', if you play by your own rules within a set mode you cant really expect it to be balanced around your rules.as said above the fight as such is nearly impossible to balance as it will mostly be decided by kiting ability/range advantage. now one can be upset about that, if that is the only thing you care for. but once you play for objectives, once you play for score regardless of groupsize, then the professions are much more balanced and mostly the population inbalance will be your issue. and you can 'win' in your goals despite losing a fight.

Yet quite a few people are just interested in having good fights and think the score is just a number they personally can't affect (to a relevant degree).

You must realize a lot of roamers don't even stomp but just cleave downs after winning fights because they just genuinely couldn't care less about the scoreboard. I am included in this category.

The problem is if there's no scoreboard/objectives etc there's noone to fight. But roaming balance doesn't have to be at odds with objective balance, the changes needed to the dominant classes in roaming could be compensated with changes that make them better at objective fighting (mostly more tankiness at the cost of mobility/range).

I can personally feel satisfied after losing a fight too if I got the opportunity to play well and did so (and it some degree mattered). However losing a fight after not getting the opportunity to actually play well is insanely frustrating in a way that makes you not wanna bother to continue posting while losing a fight when you had the opportunity to play well but didn't is frustrating in a completely different and much less exhausting way.

but dont you see that the only reason it is frustrating is because you only care about the fight and not about the reason to fight? the moment you priorize the objectives, you will approach fights differently and IMO as the professions are much more balanced that way it is less frustrating, wich usually results in more fun. having more tankiness at the cost of mobility / range will force you to approach objectives in a different way, you basically limit the diversity and options you have only to cater to people who ignore half of the mode they play.

Well given that WvW doesn't actually reward you for "winning" with anything else than pride/satisfaction/fun it is a bit weird to say someone is playing it wrong. It's a gamemode where everyone sets their own goals kinda, it's not like there aren't quite a few roamers, even if it's ofc less than objective players.

winning doesnt have to reward you for it to be the thing the game is balanced around.

I'd say the game isn't that balanced, every situation is heavily imbalanced, just in different directions, 10 wrongs doesn't make a right. Also WvW is basically PvE balance with half of the sPvP changes, saying it is balanced around anything (in WvW) is a pretty big stretch.

Even disregarding classes just by playing solo you're being inefficient, which imo isn't a problem.

the main reason winning cannot reward you is because of a dilemma situation with the population/coverage, it is nearly impossible to grant balanced coverage of these large teams wich would be required for a balanced match over 168 hours. yet reducing the match duration and making new 'balanced' teams for shorter matches (example 2 hours), would destroy too much of the community that has been build. maybe alliances is the first step to enable faster matches with balanced teams in the long run.

One of the many many many reasons I could never find caring about the score fun.

playing efficiently towards 'winning' the match has still more sense in it that running around looking for 'good' fights. because given what restrictions a fight has to be considered 'good' by many, they can be lucky if they get 1 per matchup. that doesnt mean that it is 'wrong' to only go for fights, i mean its your buisness, but IMO the chances that you enjoy that mode are much higher if you embrace all of it, just give it a try.

A very big problem with caring about winning a match has to do how little you contribute to it and how little control you have over it. It's also why the amount of fun I have drastically drops as soon as my group did exceeds five until I afk as it reaches 9 people. If you consider the match as your goal then you're playing with a few hundred strangers and at best contributing 1-2% and that'd be pretty extreme.

Another one is that it's just not challenging, or at least not in a "I can improve and get better at it" kinda way, it's mainly tedious and revolves very little about fighting, it's kinda like sPvP (where the optimal is to never have any challenging fights) which I loathe with a passion.

You can usually get in at least 2-3 decent fights an hour against most servers, bit less vs some. Varying ofc with time of day and so on.

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@"lodjur.1284" said:

playing efficiently towards 'winning' the match has still more sense in it that running around looking for 'good' fights. because given what restrictions a fight has to be considered 'good' by many, they can be lucky if they get 1 per matchup. that doesnt mean that it is 'wrong' to only go for fights, i mean its your buisness, but IMO the chances that you enjoy that mode are much higher if you embrace all of it, just give it a try.

A very big problem with caring about winning a match has to do how little you contribute to it and how little control you have over it. It's also why the amount of fun I have drastically drops as soon as my group did exceeds five until I afk as it reaches 9 people. If you consider the match as your goal then you're playing with a few hundred strangers and at best contributing 1-2% and that'd be pretty extreme.

you have little control over the actual outcome of a match but you have control over your personal contribution to it. i dont care if my server does win matches, but i do care if i did contribute or not.Another one is that it's just not challenging, or at least not in a "I can improve and get better at it" kinda way, it's mainly tedious and revolves very little about fighting, it's kinda like sPvP (where the optimal is to never have any challenging fights) which I loathe with a passion.

You can usually get in at least 2-3 decent fights an hour against most servers, bit less vs some. Varying ofc with time of day and so on.it is correct that it is optimal to never engage in a challanging fight, your performance in the fight as such is not what makes you win them mostly, its the selection of the encounters. but you surely can improve and get better at it. your infight performance is also a part of it but its just that: a part, not all. if it is challenging or not depends on both your opponents and the maximum you possibly could contribute. IMO fights alone are much less challenging as they are usually determined by build or envoiremental advantage, sure you can overcome build and envoiremental disadvantage with more 'skill', but is the fight really depending on your skill then or on your opponents lack of it? think about it. i dont think its 'challanging' to have the luck that my opponent is bad. it is more challanging to ensure getting many advantageous fights and obviously win them. an example: how do you see the difference between a bad and a good deadeye? everyone can run around on a deadeye and can have a really good k/d as the 'skill' requirement to avoid fights is minimal. yet bad deadeyes will be much more limited in the encounters they can choose as advantageous and then they actually have to engage in them and not be too afraid. most deadeyes i have seen are playing way too carefully without reason.

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@"lodjur.1284" said:You must realize a lot of roamers don't even stomp but just cleave downs after winning fights because they just genuinely couldn't care less about the scoreboard. I am included in this category.Eh that's often because roamers are usually still dangerous when downed. Trying to weigh in that with the act of roaming and how they view the scoreboard is pointless.

Anyway, we've already had this argument a million times. Everyones view on it is different. To me it's still very simple:

Any good roamer work like an interceptor - you got to actively stop the enemy movement and maintain control of the battlefield. Capping objectives, defending objectives, killing enemies solo, bringing reinforcements for smallscale, scouting, its all just a means to an end to engage the enemy before they engage you. Fail at any individual part and you fail at roaming.

And if you say "but wait, isnt that just... playing WvW?" then yes, you'd be correct. A roamer plays WvW, unlike a duelist that only got his eyes set on each individual fight while disregarding the war. For the question on when this roaming turns into zerging, it's equally simple: When you stop thinking.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:This pretty much right here is why the mode has turned into a meme joke (like the ANet attempt at eSports). The builds matter more than the skill levels. Cause Power Creep sells expansions.

Until WvW also uses the Pvp build system (or a variant) there will never be any attempt at balance.

I build to roam which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

You're confusing roamer builds with dueling builds, which are different things.Thats exactly what makes true duelling quite uninteresting. Some run pure duell builds, some run roaming builds. At least, with a duelling build you can make other roamers leave the map, or quit because of frustration, and then take the objectives for yourself xD

I guess, Anet designed WvW as a big-scale mode, where everyone can just jump in with his / her PvE-gear on (at least some ppl are doing this). So, I wouldn't expect Anet to introduce the PvP build system in WvW.

@lodjur.1284 said:Yet quite a few people are just interested in having good fights and think the score is just a number they personally can't affect (to a relevant degree).

You must realize a lot of roamers don't even stomp but just cleave downs after winning fights because they just genuinely couldn't care less about the scoreboard. I am included in this category.So, naturally, you are at an advantage with your duelling build vs. a true roaming build. How does that make duelling interesting? You ignore most of the objectives, a roamer has, and just focus on a 1vs1 build? So, you trade extra mobility, 1vsX capability, and some ppl also build flexibility for more 1vs1 skills. Mabye, these true duellers would get much more challenging fights, if they would use a roamer build, giving them the same 1vs1 handicaps the enemy roamer has.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

Roaming's purpose is to kill players, taking objectives is a way to lure people out, if objectives are your primary goal you're doing something else (not meant as a bad thing just not the same thing).

in that case i am very often not roaming, but doing
something
else. you will hardly be able to tell the difference tho, as the difference is just my intention.

Then I guess you aren't, but the term generally doesn't refer to people who primarily cap small objectives (as their goal,while the goal for a roamer would be to find fights).

I do not see the "goal" of a roamer as finding fights. I see it as objective based and information based. As example swords go up on a friendly tower or keep and I am roaming . I see it as my goal to get to that objective and ascertain the threat level so as to call in people as needed. If en-route to said objective I get involved with a long drawn out fight because I ran into someone on the way, I might get to that objective too late to prevent a flip.

The same is true of camps and especially when one has been upgraded to Speedy Yaks or some such so as to get an asset upgraded to the next tier as quickly as possible. When i note on the map that an enemy force is moving towards a given camp , I will try and get there first, raise the alarm and try to hold that position until allies arrive.

I will also often tail a zerg at the request of a commander on map so as to give details on numbers and the direction they are headed so that forces can be gathered to meet them. If a commander is flipping a keep with a force of 15 and I see a Zerg of 30 enemies headed from spawn towards that keep to defend it, I will raise the alarm. Oftimes a small group will break off from our group to engage and distract long enough for a flip to happen.

As a roamer I also take it on myself when using WPS to get closer to a camp I might want to flip to do things like reset siege in those places. Most of the roamers I am familiar with do the same types of things.

This does not mean I avoid all fights. In fact I look forward to those very few opportunities where I can engage in a 1v1. It only means I do not see this as priority.

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@enkidu.5937 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:This pretty much right here is why the mode has turned into a meme joke (like the ANet attempt at eSports).
The builds matter more than the skill levels.
Cause Power Creep sells expansions.

Until WvW also uses the Pvp build system (or a variant) there will never be any attempt at balance.

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

You're confusing
roamer
builds with
dueling
builds, which are different things.Thats exactly what makes true duelling quite uninteresting. Some run pure duell builds, some run roaming builds. At least, with a duelling build you can make other roamers leave the map, or quit because of frustration, and then take the objectives for yourself xD

I guess, Anet designed WvW as a big-scale mode,
where everyone can just jump in with his / her PvE-gear on (at least some ppl are doing this).
So, I wouldn't expect Anet to introduce the PvP build system in WvW.

Emphasis mine, just to point out, the use of PvE gear in WvW has been my biggest block to recruiting more players to the mode. They look at what it costs to gear up in even exotic of some of the meta types (Trailblazer, Commander, or Kitten Forbid Minstrel) and nope right out of the mode.

It's not really an issue for vets. We got the resources needed to gear up. But if we want new blood and the mode to not die, we either go for PvP build system or say kitten the economy to lower these prices.

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@enkidu.5937 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:This pretty much right here is why the mode has turned into a meme joke (like the ANet attempt at eSports).
The builds matter more than the skill levels.
Cause Power Creep sells expansions.

Until WvW also uses the Pvp build system (or a variant) there will never be any attempt at balance.

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

You're confusing
roamer
builds with
dueling
builds, which are different things.Thats exactly what makes true duelling quite uninteresting. Some run pure duell builds, some run roaming builds. At least, with a duelling build you can make other roamers leave the map, or quit because of frustration, and then take the objectives for yourself xD

There's basically no difference.

I guess, Anet designed WvW as a big-scale mode, where everyone can just jump in with his / her PvE-gear on (at least some ppl are doing this). So, I wouldn't expect Anet to introduce the PvP build system in WvW.

@lodjur.1284 said:Yet quite a few people are just interested in having good fights and think the score is just a number they personally can't affect (to a relevant degree).

You must realize a lot of roamers don't even stomp but just cleave downs after winning fights because they just genuinely couldn't care less about the scoreboard. I am included in this category.So, naturally, you are at an advantage with your duelling build vs. a true roaming build. How does that make duelling interesting? You ignore most of the objectives, a roamer has, and just focus on a 1vs1 build? So, you trade extra mobility, 1vsX capability, and some ppl also build flexibility for more 1vs1 skills. Mabye, these true duellers would get much more challenging fights, if they would use a roamer build, giving them the same 1vs1 handicaps the enemy roamer has.

I don't even know what you're on about but all the top tier dueling builds are stacked with multiple mobility skills FYI, which is incidentally the same as the roaming meta. I also don't know who said dueling is actually interesting, cause it sure wasn't me.

@babazhook.6805 said:

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

Roaming's purpose is to kill players, taking objectives is a way to lure people out, if objectives are your primary goal you're doing something else (not meant as a bad thing just not the same thing).

in that case i am very often not roaming, but doing
something
else. you will hardly be able to tell the difference tho, as the difference is just my intention.

Then I guess you aren't, but the term generally doesn't refer to people who primarily cap small objectives (as their goal,while the goal for a roamer would be to find fights).

I do not see the "goal" of a roamer as finding fights. I see it as objective based and information based. As example swords go up on a friendly tower or keep and I am roaming . I see it as my goal to get to that objective and ascertain the threat level so as to call in people as needed. If en-route to said objective I get involved with a long drawn out fight because I ran into someone on the way, I might get to that objective too late to prevent a flip.

The same is true of camps and especially when one has been upgraded to Speedy Yaks or some such so as to get an asset upgraded to the next tier as quickly as possible. When i note on the map that an enemy force is moving towards a given camp , I will try and get there first, raise the alarm and try to hold that position until allies arrive.

I will also often tail a zerg at the request of a commander on map so as to give details on numbers and the direction they are headed so that forces can be gathered to meet them. If a commander is flipping a keep with a force of 15 and I see a Zerg of 30 enemies headed from spawn towards that keep to defend it, I will raise the alarm. Oftimes a small group will break off from our group to engage and distract long enough for a flip to happen.

As a roamer I also take it on myself when using WPS to get closer to a camp I might want to flip to do things like reset siege in those places. Most of the roamers I am familiar with do the same types of things.

This does not mean I avoid all fights. In fact I look forward to those very few opportunities where I can engage in a 1v1. It only means I do not see this as priority.

That was an almost prefect description of scouting.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:You must realize a lot of roamers don't even stomp but just cleave downs after winning fights because they just genuinely couldn't care less about the scoreboard. I am included in this category.Eh that's often because roamers are usually still dangerous when downed. Trying to weigh in that with the act of roaming and how they view the scoreboard is pointless.

A downed player in 1v1 is mostly harmless, stomping gives score, cleaving doesn't. Stomping is just more effort.

Anyway, we've already had this argument a million times. Everyones view on it is different. To me it's still very simple:

Any good roamer work like an interceptor - you got to actively stop the enemy movement and maintain control of the battlefield. Capping objectives, defending objectives, killing enemies solo, bringing reinforcements for smallscale, scouting, its all just a means to an end to engage the enemy before they engage you. Fail at any individual part and you fail at roaming.

You're trying to make everything that isn't zerging into roaming, that's not the case.

And if you say "but wait, isnt that just... playing WvW?" then yes, you'd be correct. A roamer plays WvW, unlike a duelist that only got his eyes set on each individual fight while disregarding the war. For the question on when this roaming turns into zerging, it's equally simple: When you stop thinking.

Then you exclude a very big part of the roaming community. The only roamers I have met never cap objectives except as a way to lure people, same with defending, would rarely join someone they don't know in a fight, have never in their life called anything in map chat (scouting) and just couldn't care less about these things.

Nope dueling is a very specific kind of playing. It only contains 1v1s. Roaming is very often impromptu 1-3vX .

But roaming is a particular playstyle focused less around objectives.

"Roaming refers to the act of wandering or travelling freely and with no specific destination." would be the definition of the word, now ofc that could be a slightly different term in the game, but the general idea is the same, you have no particular destination in mind (objectives).

Zerging has to do exclusively with numbers, being brain afk is a consequence of that, not the other way around.

@MUDse.7623 said:

playing efficiently towards 'winning' the match has still more sense in it that running around looking for 'good' fights. because given what restrictions a fight has to be considered 'good' by many, they can be lucky if they get 1 per matchup. that doesnt mean that it is 'wrong' to only go for fights, i mean its your buisness, but IMO the chances that you enjoy that mode are much higher if you embrace all of it, just give it a try.

A very big problem with caring about winning a match has to do how little you contribute to it and how little control you have over it. It's also why the amount of fun I have drastically drops as soon as my group did exceeds five until I afk as it reaches 9 people. If you consider the match as your goal then you're playing with a few hundred strangers and at best contributing 1-2% and that'd be pretty extreme.

you have little control over the actual outcome of a match but you have control over your personal contribution to it. i dont care if my server does win matches, but i do care if i did contribute or not.Another one is that it's just not challenging, or at least not in a "I can improve and get better at it" kinda way, it's mainly tedious and revolves very little about fighting, it's kinda like sPvP (where the optimal is to never have any challenging fights) which I loathe with a passion.

You can usually get in at least 2-3 decent fights an hour against most servers, bit less vs some. Varying ofc with time of day and so on.it is correct that it is optimal to never engage in a challanging fight, your performance in the fight as such is not what makes you win them mostly, its the selection of the encounters. but you surely can improve and get better at it. your infight performance is also a part of it but its just that: a part, not all. if it is challenging or not depends on both your opponents and the maximum you possibly could contribute. IMO fights alone are much less challenging as they are usually determined by build or envoiremental advantage, sure you can overcome build and envoiremental disadvantage with more 'skill', but is the fight really depending on your skill then or on your opponents lack of it? think about it. i dont think its 'challanging' to have the luck that my opponent is bad. it is more challanging to ensure getting many advantageous fights and obviously win them. an example: how do you see the difference between a bad and a good deadeye? everyone can run around on a deadeye and can have a really good k/d as the 'skill' requirement to avoid fights is minimal. yet bad deadeyes will be much more limited in the encounters they can choose as advantageous and then they actually have to engage in them and not be too afraid. most deadeyes i have seen are playing way too carefully without reason.

Except you can have a fight that's challenging even if your opponents are terrible (when you're outnumbered). Winning these fights can be challenging and the result can depend on your skill, I have had fights vs multiple bad players where I after watching playback realize I misplaced and could have won, meaning I died cause of what I did.

Anyone can pick their battles, espec when you can just disengage if you turn out to be wrong. To me that's about as interesting as sieging.

To me at least, only the fights are actually interesting and that's the way everyone I play with also sees it. > @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:This pretty much right here is why the mode has turned into a meme joke (like the ANet attempt at eSports).
The builds matter more than the skill levels.
Cause Power Creep sells expansions.

Until WvW also uses the Pvp build system (or a variant) there will never be any attempt at balance.

I build to
roam
which means taking objectives and maybe killing players when I can. But I need to be confident of the kill, cause if I lose I have to run back to get the objectives again.

You're confusing
roamer
builds with
dueling
builds, which are different things.Thats exactly what makes true duelling quite uninteresting. Some run pure duell builds, some run roaming builds. At least, with a duelling build you can make other roamers leave the map, or quit because of frustration, and then take the objectives for yourself xD

I guess, Anet designed WvW as a big-scale mode,
where everyone can just jump in with his / her PvE-gear on (at least some ppl are doing this).
So, I wouldn't expect Anet to introduce the PvP build system in WvW.

Emphasis mine, just to point out, the use of PvE gear in WvW has been my biggest block to recruiting more players to the mode. They look at what it costs to gear up in
even exotic
of some of the meta types (Trailblazer, Commander, or Kitten Forbid Minstrel) and nope right out of the mode.

Commander isn't meta anywhere, least of all WvW.

It's not really an issue for vets. We got the resources needed to gear up. But if we want new blood and the mode to not die, we either go for PvP build system or say kitten the economy to lower these prices.

Prices are low, getting a full set of ascended Minstrel gear isn't nearly as expensive as you make it out to be, not that I am against cheaper ascended armor tvo. Not had anyone I tried recruiting to WvW or the game on general blocked by the gold cost of gear. Amulet system would kill WvW.

The only problems with the gearing system is how stupidly hard trinkets are to get for new players. Which could easily be fixed. They aren't a cost issue though.

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When you meet a person that can sustain dmg and not die straight away, those fights can go on for so long u can end up losing participation instead of gaining anything. Its usually better for your participation to run off and whack the next newbie in da face instead. And those 1vs3 are almost impossible due to not only having more players, but the downstate mechanics ontop of that, its like 9 times more tricky just because of that mech.

Competitive fights just isn't rewarding enough unfortunately.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

playing efficiently towards 'winning' the match has still more sense in it that running around looking for 'good' fights. because given what restrictions a fight has to be considered 'good' by many, they can be lucky if they get 1 per matchup. that doesnt mean that it is 'wrong' to only go for fights, i mean its your buisness, but IMO the chances that you enjoy that mode are much higher if you embrace all of it, just give it a try.

A very big problem with caring about winning a match has to do how little you contribute to it and how little control you have over it. It's also why the amount of fun I have drastically drops as soon as my group did exceeds five until I afk as it reaches 9 people. If you consider the match as your goal then you're playing with a few hundred strangers and at best contributing 1-2% and that'd be pretty extreme.

you have little control over the actual outcome of a match but you have control over your personal contribution to it. i dont care if my server does win matches, but i do care if i did contribute or not.Another one is that it's just not challenging, or at least not in a "I can improve and get better at it" kinda way, it's mainly tedious and revolves very little about fighting, it's kinda like sPvP (where the optimal is to never have any challenging fights) which I loathe with a passion.

You can usually get in at least 2-3 decent fights an hour against most servers, bit less vs some. Varying ofc with time of day and so on.it is correct that it is optimal to never engage in a challanging fight, your performance in the fight as such is not what makes you win them mostly, its the selection of the encounters. but you surely can improve and get better at it. your infight performance is also a part of it but its just that: a part, not all. if it is challenging or not depends on both your opponents and the maximum you possibly could contribute. IMO fights alone are much less challenging as they are usually determined by build or envoiremental advantage, sure you can overcome build and envoiremental disadvantage with more 'skill', but is the fight really depending on your skill then or on your opponents lack of it? think about it. i dont think its 'challanging' to have the luck that my opponent is bad. it is more challanging to ensure getting many advantageous fights and obviously win them. an example: how do you see the difference between a bad and a good deadeye? everyone can run around on a deadeye and can have a really good k/d as the 'skill' requirement to avoid fights is minimal. yet bad deadeyes will be much more limited in the encounters they can choose as advantageous and then they actually have to engage in them and not be too afraid. most deadeyes i have seen are playing way too carefully without reason.

Except you can have a fight that's challenging even if your opponents are terrible (when you're outnumbered). Winning these fights can be challenging and the result can depend on your skill, I have had fights vs multiple bad players where I after watching playback realize I misplaced and could have won, meaning I died cause of what I did.these fight as said depend mainly on them being bad, not you being good.Anyone can pick their battles, espec when you can just disengage if you turn out to be wrong. To me that's about as interesting as sieging.you cannot just disengage if you turn out to be wrong, that doesnt work in too many cases. mostly when you manage to disengage, you had that possibility in mind on engage so you made sure you still can disengage. but yes everyone can pick their fights, still sooo many people fail at it - wonder why..To me at least, only the fights are actually interesting and that's the way everyone I play with also sees it.thats good that you play with likeminded, doesnt make your view the only right one. you see plenty of people already answered that when they talk about roaming they do not have such a narrowminded view on it as you do, yet you still stand by your opinion to be the only true one. as 'everyone YOU play with' is of that opinion.
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If someone is being obnoxious and playing a high mobility class and disengages when he is losing I will definitely not bother engaging him again. There's a 9/10 chance said player will just disengage and go ooc to regen health and cds again and I will have even less life force for the next engagement. I'm not going to play along with that sort of behaviour. It's a complete waste of time. Which I don't want since if I'm in WvW I'm likely just there for reward ticks.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

playing efficiently towards 'winning' the match has still more sense in it that running around looking for 'good' fights. because given what restrictions a fight has to be considered 'good' by many, they can be lucky if they get 1 per matchup. that doesnt mean that it is 'wrong' to only go for fights, i mean its your buisness, but IMO the chances that you enjoy that mode are much higher if you embrace all of it, just give it a try.

A very big problem with caring about winning a match has to do how little you contribute to it and how little control you have over it. It's also why the amount of fun I have drastically drops as soon as my group did exceeds five until I afk as it reaches 9 people. If you consider the match as your goal then you're playing with a few hundred strangers and at best contributing 1-2% and that'd be pretty extreme.

you have little control over the actual outcome of a match but you have control over your personal contribution to it. i dont care if my server does win matches, but i do care if i did contribute or not.Another one is that it's just not challenging, or at least not in a "I can improve and get better at it" kinda way, it's mainly tedious and revolves very little about fighting, it's kinda like sPvP (where the optimal is to never have any challenging fights) which I loathe with a passion.

You can usually get in at least 2-3 decent fights an hour against most servers, bit less vs some. Varying ofc with time of day and so on.it is correct that it is optimal to never engage in a challanging fight, your performance in the fight as such is not what makes you win them mostly, its the selection of the encounters. but you surely can improve and get better at it. your infight performance is also a part of it but its just that: a part, not all. if it is challenging or not depends on both your opponents and the maximum you possibly could contribute. IMO fights alone are much less challenging as they are usually determined by build or envoiremental advantage, sure you can overcome build and envoiremental disadvantage with more 'skill', but is the fight really depending on your skill then or on your opponents lack of it? think about it. i dont think its 'challanging' to have the luck that my opponent is bad. it is more challanging to ensure getting many advantageous fights and obviously win them. an example: how do you see the difference between a bad and a good deadeye? everyone can run around on a deadeye and can have a really good k/d as the 'skill' requirement to avoid fights is minimal. yet bad deadeyes will be much more limited in the encounters they can choose as advantageous and then they actually have to engage in them and not be too afraid. most deadeyes i have seen are playing way too carefully without reason.

Except you can have a fight that's challenging even if your opponents are terrible (when you're outnumbered). Winning these fights can be challenging and the result can depend on your skill, I have had fights vs multiple bad players where I after watching playback realize I misplaced and could have won, meaning I died cause of what I did.these fight as said depend mainly on them being bad, not you being good

Bad and Good are subjective terms tho. That PvP in general (at least should) depend on the skill difference between you and your opponent(s) isn't really an argument here.

However a challenging fight does always depend on your own skill too. This is because it's a pretty broad term, it's just any fight you wouldn't have won if you had played slightly worse, or conversely would have won if you played slightly better. Now this can include winning an 1v3 against worse players, losing a close 1v1 to an evenly skilled player or any number of other scenarios.

Anyone can pick their battles, espec when you can just disengage if you turn out to be wrong. To me that's about as interesting as sieging.you cannot just disengage if you turn out to be wrong, that doesnt work in too many cases. mostly when you manage to disengage, you had that possibility in mind on engage so you made sure you still can disengage. but yes everyone can pick their fights, still sooo many people fail at it - wonder why..

You can on 3 classes, very easily except possibly against people playing these same 3 classes (but usually you can cause disengages are easier than chasing). You don't need to keep it in mind if you class has several long range teleports/leaps and possibly stealth.

Also you mention failing at choosing your fights. There isn't anything to fail at unless you're using a very narrow definition of what a correct fight to take is. For me personally, when I am solo, I engage in all fights where I could have a chance to win this includes 1v5s I quite often lose, because to me dying doesn't matter. The only things I actually avoid to engage are groups bigger than 7 (unless I happen to know they are very very bad/new players and it's in a good location), thieves/mesmers/rangers (if they look even remotely competent) and people I know (or kindaish).

The first category is quite simply because you never win 1v8s against even the most mediocre of players, no matter how good you play, which I guess isn't a problem.

The second category is because I already know exactly how they will play, they will first disengage then burst me and when that doesn't work they will disengage and burst again, they will repeat this ad nauseam. The only problem here is that they generally pick to engage in a fight with me, which I can't really do much about as these 3 classes have so much more mobility than anything else.

The last category is because with those people we both already know who will win a fight based on what we're playing (and how good the person is ofc) and neither of us would wanna end up 2+v1ing someone, therefore I only really fight people I know at dueling spots.

According to your definition I massively fail at picking my fights tho. Imo there's nothing to actually fail at.

To me at least, only the fights are actually interesting and that's the way everyone I play with also sees it.thats good that you play with likeminded, doesnt make your view the only right one. you see plenty of people already answered that when they talk about roaming they do not have such a narrowminded view on it as you do, yet you still stand by your opinion to be the only true one. as 'everyone YOU play with' is of that opinion.

You mean like the person who think that everything that isn't scouting or zerging is dueling?

I am not saying what I am doing is better, I am just saying what roaming is, frankly objective playing isn't really roaming, its more often just called scouting or could be called solo havoc. Trying to call me narrowminded for wanting a term used correctly is just silly, try keeping a higher debate level in the future please.

@babazhook.6805 said:

That was an almost prefect description of scouting.

Yours is a perfect description of DUELING. You can find fights on that central island or outside SMC walls in various locations .

Dueling is organized 1v1s

Roaming is generally a unorganized 1(or possibly 2-3)vX (which includes x=1). The differences are so many, for starters there's no clear start or finish to fights, if you die you're opponent won't let you ress, more people will prolly join in.

@Aktium.9506 said:If someone is being obnoxious and playing a high mobility class and disengages when he is losing I will definitely not bother engaging him again. There's a 9/10 chance said player will just disengage and go ooc to regen health and cds again and I will have even less life force for the next engagement. I'm not going to play along with that sort of behaviour. It's a complete waste of time. Which I don't want since if I'm in WvW I'm likely just there for reward ticks.

The problem isn't that you choose to re-engage them, but that they choose to re-engage you, sometimes 10+ times in a row. If they after disengaging wouldn't reengage me until I get bored/tilted enough to die, I wouldn't really mind.

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@lodjur.1284 said:

Anyone can pick their battles, espec when you can just disengage if you turn out to be wrong. To me that's about as interesting as sieging.you cannot just disengage if you turn out to be wrong, that doesnt work in too many cases. mostly when you manage to disengage, you had that possibility in mind on engage so you made sure you still can disengage. but yes everyone can pick their fights, still sooo many people fail at it - wonder why..

You can on 3 classes, very easily except possibly against people playing these same 3 classes (but usually you can cause disengages are easier than chasing). You don't need to keep it in mind if you class has several long range teleports/leaps and possibly stealth.

yes there are professions with the tools to disengage a fight. yet you still need them ready for a disengage and are not allowed to use them offensively if you think you might need to disengage. they do not have a magic 0 cost 'i am outta here' button.Also you mention failing at choosing your fights. There isn't anything to fail at unless you're using a very narrow definition of what a correct fight to take is. For me personally, when I am solo, I engage in all fights where I could have a chance to win this includes 1v5s I quite often lose, because to me dying doesn't matter. The only things I actually avoid to engage are groups bigger than 7 (unless I happen to know they are very very bad/new players and it's in a good location), thieves/mesmers/rangers (if they look even remotely competent) and people I know (or kindaish).

there is alot to fail. if you attack a group too big for you to be able to at least disengage again, you failed. if you waste alot of time trying to avoid a fight because you overestimate your opponents, you also failed. unless ofc you do not value your own contribution, then you can waste your time with waiting or dying pointlessly.The last category is because with those people we both already know who will win a fight based on what we're playing (and how good the person is ofc) and neither of us would wanna end up 2+v1ing someone, therefore I only really fight people I know at dueling spots.

According to your definition I massively fail at picking my fights tho. Imo there's nothing to actually fail at.thats correct IMO you probably fail at picking your fights. you already realised earlier that IMO picking a challanging fight is far from efficient. it might be what is fun to you and you might perform well in said fight, but from might point of view that is very bad as what i call a roamer.

To me at least, only the fights are actually interesting and that's the way everyone I play with also sees it.thats good that you play with likeminded, doesnt make your view the only right one. you see plenty of people already answered that when they talk about roaming they do not have such a narrowminded view on it as you do, yet you still stand by your opinion to be the only true one. as 'everyone YOU play with' is of that opinion.

You mean like the person who think that everything that isn't scouting or zerging is dueling?

I am not saying what I am doing is better, I am just saying what roaming is, frankly objective playing isn't really roaming, its more often just called scouting or could be called solo havoc. Trying to call me narrowminded for
wanting a term used correctly
is just silly, try keeping a higher debate level in the future please.exactly, you want us to use the term the way you think it is correct. why is it so difficult to apply a broader meaning to what 'roaming' is? and yes i do think myself a roamer and kind of feel a bit offended as you claim that whatever i am doing is not roaming, therefor i will call it narrowminded. during what i call roaming many people apply their focus on different things but trying to use a different word for the activities of every specific roamer would be a little much, dont you think? you just make it easy and say everyone playing like me is a roamer and the rest is doing 'something' but not roaming..
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I usually try fighting everyone except ppl I already dueled a lot. But when I see a Druid/Boonbeast/Chaos Mirage/Holo with utility buffs that cost over 1 gold/30 min. aka damage reduction/toughess potion etc I usually just cringe and walk away. Even if I beat them it would just take forever. Also tryhards like that usually +1 me soon anyway. I know winning is fun, but winning with custom offmeta builds is even more fun. Honestly the buildcrafting aspect is most exciting thing for me in gw2. Being a tryhard isn't worth it since you can pick your fights.

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@"Sylosi.6503" said:Because most WvW players who still play WvW on a frequent basis are basically PvE players at heart who use WvW as a substitute for a social life, rather than looking for good (challenging) PvP. No actual PvP player would put up with the pitiful quality of "PvP" in WvW where the majority of fights are not close in the slightest. (let's not even go into how infrequent fights are on top of that...)

I remember last time I watched Helseth stream (long ago), a bit after they let you queue for PvP from WvW, he went into WvW duelled a warrior, beat him, said "this is stupid, I can just kite him" and went back to PvP, that is the response of an actual PvP player to the "PvP" of WvW.

That's funny. I think it's the exact opposite way. Most PvP players are just too stupid to play.And loose fights in wvw even against not so good players.If you are looking for "good (challenging) PvP" gw2 is the wrong game for you.

Most people in PvP be like: haha, scourge is for noobs, I stand on a point and loose because I facetank everything. Instead of kiting or pressuring them from range.

And when they get into wvw, where the first challenge occurs in crafting a good build, they often choose pretty poorly.Because spvp makes you not flexible by having these stupid set stat amulets

Sure there's always exceptions. I met this spvp good player (the one with the crown) in wvw and spvp. He wrecked people in both modes with his daredevil (and people say thief is bad lol)He even killed people in 3v1 situations.

And then there players like another one I met, who showed me that he was top 100 in spvp, but he lost in wvw against an average roamer that even I with my necro could beat.

You can't just say that wvw isn't good PvP. It actually is. But you need to find these people that are as good as you are.

And there's actually a lot of players, that play wvw only. They just get into pve, when they want a legendary weapon or something else, like a skin.

Me myself am raiding pve 1-3 times a week, so 2-6hours. Rest of the time I'm in wvw. Which might be 2-3hours a day, if not more.

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@"Sylosi.6503" said:Because most WvW players who still play WvW on a frequent basis are basically PvE players at heart who use WvW as a substitute for a social life, rather than looking for good (challenging) PvP. No actual PvP player would put up with the pitiful quality of "PvP" in WvW where the majority of fights are not close in the slightest. (let's not even go into how infrequent fights are on top of that...)

I remember last time I watched Helseth stream (long ago), a bit after they let you queue for PvP from WvW, he went into WvW duelled a warrior, beat him, said "this is stupid, I can just kite him" and went back to PvP, that is the response of an actual PvP player to the "PvP" of WvW.

Rather WvW roamers don't wont to lose any more brain cells playing the same tiny conquest maps on a restricted amulet build system that requires you to be on a circle to win. In WvW you have huge maps, able to LOS, dont need to stand on a circle that the entire enemy team will bomb. They also have the ability to play a wider variety of builds. Its refreshing to come across players actually experimenting with diverse builds which is virtually impossible in PvP.

Im talking small scale roaming here not Zergs.

If there comes a day when ANET implements the pvp amulet system in WvW will be the day i uninstall.

Also LOL at quoting Helseth who plays mesmer which is literally the most OP duelling class in WvW like since forever.

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