PvE: how to increase map relevance? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

PvE: how to increase map relevance?

Due to this game's design, characters don't have to "outgrow" an area, like it would happen in traditional mmorpgs. However, players don't spend time in several older maps, and I don't mean just core Tyria maps like Queensdale, but even the more recent expansion and living story maps. In particular, you hear complains regularly in this forum that LS maps feel "throwaway", as they come out, players get the meta achievement, and never return again. To me this seems like wasting the game's potential, so I ask what suggestions does the community has to increase the replay value of maps?

LS maps have specific rewards to grind for, but once you have them (or don't want them), there's no reason to go back (or worse, they have an excruciating grind like Draconic Mons did and players burn out from the process) unless there's a way to make gold out of it (see Istan), but there's no way one can add such metas to every single upcoming map due to various reasons.

Thus, how could ANet get players to play in a more diverse number of maps?

Comments

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    Making rewards equivalent for the time invested across metas would be the ideal. However, it is very difficult to balance all of them. There is also the problem that as more maps are added, the population spreads out more and more. The best way to make sure that all the maps are still played a couple of years from now would be to incorporate GW1 style weekly bonuses and daily Zaishen quests. They could tailor them as to encourage playing specific maps more on specific weeks or days, for extra rewards.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    For one thing, the living world season maps also need to be possibilities in the daily event competer goals. Whatever map has that each day is always very populated, so those maps would get a flood of attention every now and then at least

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Making rewards equivalent for the time invested across metas would be the ideal. However, it is very difficult to balance all of them. There is also the problem that as more maps are added, the population spreads out more and more. The best way to make sure that all the maps are still played a couple of years from now would be to incorporate GW1 style weekly bonuses and daily Zaishen quests. They could tailor them as to encourage playing specific maps more on specific weeks or days, for extra rewards.

    But thats how they are doing Daily achievements, but still only getting mixed results. If the rate of new maps is too low, people tend to get bored. Too fast, and achievement based content becomes a long term problem after the fact. LS1 attempted to reuse and permanently change the maps, but creates an issue with scaling due to lvl80s just being so powerful due to access to more skills and traits, as well as the massive compounded power from Build synergy. The Mordrem invasion of the lvl 15 zones were almost a disaster, since the the Mordrem were not made with profiles that scale down correctly. Lvl 80s were struggling to fight them, while actual lvl 15-20s wandering the area would be destroyed due to the power disparity of the mobs. While one could argue this framed the Mordrem as a real threat, low levels were not given intuitive options to participate at their combat level.

    This whole problem of population movement started because of the reward system, and thus can't be "solved" through the reward system itself. This is why most LS maps are only relevant for a couple of weeks (exclusive rewards), while Istan deviated from this because of its lucrative gold (universal) reward output. And before that it was Bounty Trains to get mosaics, and eventually fell back on Daily HOT meta farms for Amalgamated Gems. And before that Silverwastes for the chest runs..... which makes it all the more ironic that Istan's gold output is accomplished through Silverwaste's MF bonuses. Everything we do is far too focused on rewards, so its not surprising that we focus heavily on maximizing those efficiencies. Its a sad truth of MMOs, but was something GW2 had the potential to avoid..... until we just ran out of things to do.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭

    Adding these to a world-boss train, or something that works in a similar way (doesn't necessarily have to be worldbosses) might help.

    I enjoy having a huge world to explore, but I have to admit that if I wanted to go back for any of the group content, it wouldn't be much fun now.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What if GMs and devs had the capabilities of just doing crazy stuff for the fun of it? Like invading a quiet map with saurians and raptors or summoning a dragon boss in a starting zone or turning off gravity in an odd place? It wouldn't be announced or planned and would require players spreading the word for more players to join in. Not an every day thing, just a community fun thing.

    ...or is this thread about rewards?

  • Jokubas.4265Jokubas.4265 Member ✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    Something to keep in mind is that there is an inevitable critical mass. Even if you could make everything equally relevant, that would just mean that everyone is spread too thinly to accomplish anything. Having more reliable scaling is probably the best future-proofing. You need a failsafe so that, if something happens to not be populated, it doesn't become impossible, because there's no real way to guarantee that it will always be populated. Population strain will come some day no matter what, whether because there's too much content to support a playerbase of any size or because the game is simply aging. Putting together a group manually is often a solution, but it's not particularly reliable.

    Otherwise, I like the current idea of "pick a reward, go to the map/fulfill the collection that grants it". It's part of the horizontal progression resolves so much of the issues I have with other MMOs these days. I don't have to feel like I'm falling behind or don't have access to things, because everything's equally available. And if something isn't my style, I don't have to feel compelled to do it just because it's necessary for something later. I actually don't play Guild Wars 2 that much, but it works for me and for Arena.net because it means I'm never stressed out about it so I'm always willing to get into what's new.

    I don't want to feel compelled to finish the things I don't really want to, but it would be nice to feel comfortable that things will still be possible even when they're not the focus at the moment.

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    What if GMs and devs had the capabilities of just doing crazy stuff for the fun of it? Like invading a quiet map with saurians and raptors or summoning a dragon boss in a starting zone or turning off gravity in an odd place? It wouldn't be announced or planned and would require players spreading the word for more players to join in. Not an every day thing, just a community fun thing.

    ...or is this thread about rewards?

    Modern MMO audiences won't stand for that anymore. Casual heavy populations don't like any form of disruption... not even the fun kind. Right now there are people (thankfully few) that are complaining about the new Map taking population away from their farm routes.

    Plus if you look at the postmortem complaints over LS1 not giving everyone (including late comers to the game) a chance to experience it at their leisure, this will just turn into another argument about "wasted Dev resources" and/or "unfairness" depending on what that person wants. And I'm not even going to some of the social engineering opportunities that can pop up from this (even the most on point GMs can get tricked).

    As for the threads being about rewards...... theres only 2 possible things at the root of every threads. "My class should beat up your class", and "Rewards should be easier and have more of them".

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If they want to increase PvE map relevance they would first need to figure out what brings people to maps.

    There's a few general things that i'm sure they know in that being rarity of rewards, income(gp/h). What i've personally noticed is that while those are nice the reward types are often things that don't motivate people either due to being excessively rare or things they're not interested in. Now rarity aside because that's not likely to change, there is something that can and that is types of rewards. In my opinion there's not enough differences in rewards per map, it's generally map currency, salvage fodder and 1 unique item or Aura. Given the vast amount of "things" in the game you could start varrying rewards by adding things like gizmo's, mini-pets, toys, tonics(permanant), etc... to the potential loot of these meta's and make them thematic.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    Very simple:
    1~ Add a worldboss (not a meta) (tequalt type) with the same amount of rewards. (Note: not needed to be a dragon)

    2~ Add more quests, that way more heart vendors, and so more rewards and tonics tradable for karma. But stop with repeatable hearts.

    3~ Add more side-achievments that take time or some with titles.

    +++Number ONE fan of I.N.Q.U.E.S.T, don't worry, I'm chaotic-neutral. I like baddies in general. +++

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Honestly I'd go back a step further: How many maps does a game where we don't outgrow maps actually need?

    The more maps you add, the less possible it becomes to keep them all relevant. It's similar to how the slew of skills, traits, item stats and all the billions of combinations cause balance issues: there's just too much, you could cut 95%++ and lose nothing of relevance because all these combinations would be factually sub-par.

    With maps, it's that the sheer volume means you cannot find a sensible reason for each map to be around. Even if each were needed for a farm material which can only be obtained there, you can't freely repeat this, plus it leads to plenty fan-ire as it is quite obvious how forced this is.

    A smarter solution, IMO, would be:

    • Use new maps as sparingly as possible. Adapt the story and progression to either remove zones for story/lore reasons as new get added or transform existing zones into what you need them to be, effectively being replaced by a new map which just shares a few similarities and the name.
    • Given the reduced pool of maps, categorize them into "farm maps" (you'd only need a handful of endgame materials since you don't have so many maps), "dangerous maps" (hold big metas, don't enter alone, like old Orr - higher money pay-off in a group in certain farm spots however!), "money maps" (efficient farm solo, less total income than dangerous maps of course). Each of the latter two types can exist once per common currency as farm maps are for materials.
    • Re-align maps to the new balance, effectively giving one optimal spot for each context and desire.
  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    @starlinvf.1358 said:

    @Ganathar.4956 said:
    Making rewards equivalent for the time invested across metas would be the ideal. However, it is very difficult to balance all of them. There is also the problem that as more maps are added, the population spreads out more and more. The best way to make sure that all the maps are still played a couple of years from now would be to incorporate GW1 style weekly bonuses and daily Zaishen quests. They could tailor them as to encourage playing specific maps more on specific weeks or days, for extra rewards.

    But thats how they are doing Daily achievements, but still only getting mixed results. If the rate of new maps is too low, people tend to get bored. Too fast, and achievement based content becomes a long term problem after the fact. LS1 attempted to reuse and permanently change the maps, but creates an issue with scaling due to lvl80s just being so powerful due to access to more skills and traits, as well as the massive compounded power from Build synergy. The Mordrem invasion of the lvl 15 zones were almost a disaster, since the the Mordrem were not made with profiles that scale down correctly. Lvl 80s were struggling to fight them, while actual lvl 15-20s wandering the area would be destroyed due to the power disparity of the mobs. While one could argue this framed the Mordrem as a real threat, low levels were not given intuitive options to participate at their combat level.

    This whole problem of population movement started because of the reward system, and thus can't be "solved" through the reward system itself. This is why most LS maps are only relevant for a couple of weeks (exclusive rewards), while Istan deviated from this because of its lucrative gold (universal) reward output. And before that it was Bounty Trains to get mosaics, and eventually fell back on Daily HOT meta farms for Amalgamated Gems. And before that Silverwastes for the chest runs..... which makes it all the more ironic that Istan's gold output is accomplished through Silverwaste's MF bonuses. Everything we do is far too focused on rewards, so its not surprising that we focus heavily on maximizing those efficiencies. Its a sad truth of MMOs, but was something GW2 had the potential to avoid..... until we just ran out of things to do.

    The dailies that we have now are a joke compared to the weekly bonuses and Zaishen dailies that GW1 had. They only give map currency for that specific map, and barely any at that. You only do these if you still need things tied to that map. Zaishen dailies had their own reward system with their own currency with which you could work towards exclusive items as a long term goal. They also had decent exp and gold rewards. However, these quests changed every day so that they encouraged you to visit different zones. Weekly bonuses were similar because the activities you had to do for the bonus also changed every week. Though admittedly, the weekly bonuses only made you get more of the same reward you were already getting.

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    What if GMs and devs had the capabilities of just doing crazy stuff for the fun of it? Like invading a quiet map with saurians and raptors or summoning a dragon boss in a starting zone or turning off gravity in an odd place? It wouldn't be announced or planned and would require players spreading the word for more players to join in. Not an every day thing, just a community fun thing.

    ...or is this thread about rewards?

    I agree that would be fun, and I'd love to see that happen when I'm on the map, but I'm not convinced it would help with this problem. For it to work you're relying on the few people who are on that map recognising that these enemies are not normally there and that it's something unusual enough to be worth mentioning so they tell their guild/s about it (since that's the only way to get the word out without leaving the map), and the people they tell being interested enough that they'll drop what they're already doing to come and see.

    Imagine you're in Iron Marches and you suddenly see loads of Inquest golems, or pocket raptors or something else which obviously does not belong there. Would you tell everyone you know to come and see? Now imagine you're on the other end - you're in the middle of doing your dailies or completing a story instance or doing a meta-event or whatever you typically do in-game and someone in your guild says "Hey guys, there's loads of pocket raptors all over Iron Marches!" Would you stop what you were doing to go and see? Or say "ha, cool, that's so random!" and carry on?

    As much as I genuinely think this would be a fun surprise I have to admit my reaction would vary, and lean more towards thinking that's interesting and carrying on with what I'm doing. Because what would happen if you did go? You see there are indeed pocket raptors all over Iron Marches. You kill some, maybe help someone else survive them, maybe spot the dev who spawned them somewhere on the map appearing to be afk because they're busy spawning raptors and answering whispers. Then you...go back to what you were doing. (Not to mention the inevitable player who just wanted to get in, get map completion done as fast as possible and get out again who is now absolutely furious that someone from Anet is deliberately trolling them by making it '10,000x harder' than it should be just because they're bored and want to show off their dev powers.)

    Also, like the suggestion to add a world boss to each map I'm not convinced it really helps the people who are trying to play on under populated maps. You're on a 1/2 empty map and suddenly a massive influx of players comes to kill a world boss, or everything is covered in pocket raptors and people show up to fight them, look at them, whatever. Then what? Do they also stick around to do hearts and events with you? Or are they all going to leave again once they've done the 1 thing they came for?

    I think the answer will vary, because people aren't all the same - I'm very easily distracted in games so there's a good chance that having come to a map to do 1 thing I'd hang around for some other stuff if I came across it. But I also know I'm in the minority there and most people are much more goal focused, they'll do what they need to do and then leave again.

    Overall I think the best solution is for Anet to monitor populations and adjust event scaling so if you can't rely on more than 2 or 3 people in an area you don't need more than that to complete the content (but if possible allow for the other end, so events can scale up if a lot of people do show up for whatever reason). I certainly wouldn't object to something like the Zaishen dailies from GW1 or more new content in older maps like the ley line anomalies, bloodstone beasts, roller beetle racing etc. I think all of those can be a lot of fun, I'm just not convinced it would make any difference to people who are there doing map completion or levelling up.

    "You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
    And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
    And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
    It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the issue is much deeper than rewards. Map design, flow and details all play significant part. Most of the new maps look flashy, but once the flash wares off, you realize how bare bones these maps are. Adding well designed and rewarding meta(s) surely helps.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If we are getting one with every episode ofc the maps will feel like throwaway content.

    We could compaire lw2 and lw3/4 for example: Silverwastes and drytop both have traffic years after their release.

    Equal parts because they are rewarding but also because they are bussy with events and a map wide event like structure makimg playing in them better overtime.

    We also didnt get more maps back then so they cpuld go back on these maps and simply expand them or add more content.

    If they have to make and release a new map every 3 months that simply wont happen.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The more zones the game gets, the more this will be a problem. Aaand, we're still getting more zones.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Given the vast amount of "things" in
    the game you could start varrying
    rewards by adding things like gizmo's,
    mini-pets, toys, tonics(permanant),
    etc... to the potential loot of these
    meta's and make them thematic.

    Its not like they've been doing that since se3.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    Thinking some more on this topic, I am reminded of the "Scarlet invasions" which took place in core Tyria maps during LS1, if something like that were to be implemented, and any map (including LS ones) could be picked, and if there were a daily reward for doing it (perhaps a mystic coin, like the daily leyline anomalies), well, that would be an incentive for players to revisit old maps on a daily basis.

    Granted, such a meta event would be even better if it involved finishing the regular events the target map already has: imagine they are all boosted in scaling and includes additional adds so that even low level events aren't a snooze fest (as it happens currently with dailies).

    Considering the current story involving the mists, such events could be involved easily with the game's lore.

    Or just have the daily events include ALL maps, not just non-LS ones. :P

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    What if GMs and devs had the capabilities of just doing crazy stuff for the fun of it? Like invading a quiet map with saurians and raptors or summoning a dragon boss in a starting zone or turning off gravity in an odd place? It wouldn't be announced or planned and would require players spreading the word for more players to join in. Not an every day thing, just a community fun thing.

    ...or is this thread about rewards?

    I agree that would be fun, and I'd love to see that happen when I'm on the map, but I'm not convinced it would help with this problem. For it to work you're relying on the few people who are on that map recognising that these enemies are not normally there and that it's something unusual enough to be worth mentioning so they tell their guild/s about it (since that's the only way to get the word out without leaving the map), and the people they tell being interested enough that they'll drop what they're already doing to come and see.

    Imagine you're in Iron Marches and you suddenly see loads of Inquest golems, or pocket raptors or something else which obviously does not belong there. Would you tell everyone you know to come and see? Now imagine you're on the other end - you're in the middle of doing your dailies or completing a story instance or doing a meta-event or whatever you typically do in-game and someone in your guild says "Hey guys, there's loads of pocket raptors all over Iron Marches!" Would you stop what you were doing to go and see? Or say "ha, cool, that's so random!" and carry on?

    But that's the thing. It shouldn't be something that is seen as an obligation to participate in but it should be something people would likely go peek at and possibly chat about in map/guild chat.

    It could also be a kind-of testing ground to just try stuff out like giving mobs that have generic attacks, skills that players have or enemies that only show up in some story instance and pop them around the map. Or just some generic lore they want to get people talking.

    Then there's also the resource investment. Would such a thing shake the server causing everyone to flock to it? Probably not...but how many resources would it take? In my idea, it'd be like 3-4 GMs/devs for a couple hours. Any other idea in this thread likely would require a team of devs dozens of man-hours.

    I'm just saying, people want blanket fixes to problems that have deep systematic issues that likely have no solution except acceptance. If so many maps aren't being used, then let the individuals who can make playgrounds out of them.

    As much as I genuinely think this would be a fun surprise I have to admit my reaction would vary, and lean more towards thinking that's interesting and carrying on with what I'm doing. Because what would happen if you did go? You see there are indeed pocket raptors all over Iron Marches. You kill some, maybe help someone else survive them, maybe spot the dev who spawned them somewhere on the map appearing to be afk because they're busy spawning raptors and answering whispers. Then you...go back to what you were doing. (Not to mention the inevitable player who just wanted to get in, get map completion done as fast as possible and get out again who is now absolutely furious that someone from Anet is deliberately trolling them by making it '10,000x harder' than it should be just because they're bored and want to show off their dev powers.)

    Very likely.

    But how is this different from people playing instruments and showing off their fashionwars?

    An invasion of pocket raptors in Iron Marches? Maybe I'd check it out. How about pocket raptors who all have the Burning Speed and Drake's Breath skill? Hmm, That seems rather insane. I'd think I'd HAVE to see that.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Rewards like the Dragonsblood weapons and the Requiem armor do a fine job. They're not going to be part of every release, but stuff like that is good. The Ember infusion for the new shatterer also kinda works, though it isn't the most popular event anymore.

    Logging out forever.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DoNotBelieveMe.3029 said:
    Your answer would be in the form of HoT map wide Metas. Toss an infusion into the rng of the meta, instant population boom.

    I could make more money selling the Chalk Egg sac, but there was a time when I did the Auric Basin meta 10-15 times per week, while maybe doing the Tangled Depths one 1-2 a month.

    Rewards are important, but equally important is the meta be fun to play, and be of reasonable length.

  • Cuks.8241Cuks.8241 Member ✭✭

    I think in the future when more and more maps will be released they should expand the content available to f2p players. Maybe even give them basic glider and maybe even a basic mount - raptor with no or a few masteries just to be able to traverse the world. This should bring some additional population.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Given the vast amount of "things" in
    the game you could start varrying
    rewards by adding things like gizmo's,
    mini-pets, toys, tonics(permanant),
    etc... to the potential loot of these
    meta's and make them thematic.

    Its not like they've been doing that since se3.

    They haven't.

    This methodology was abanndoned when we got to PoF. Almost none of the map specific metas have anything unique tied to them. This is even more apparent in Season 4's maps as there's no real incentive to do their meta's outside of currency gain. The "unique items" on the map are generally removed from the meta's as a whole which reduces peoples overal play time for them unless there's a significant gap in GP/H as was seen with Istan farming.

    TL;DR the map meta's that bring people together need to have not only a wider variety of rewards and less of the shoehorning of Aura's or just excessive loot.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    Another alternative could be to add to every ls4 Map meta a rare, tradable reward that is required to complete the collection for getting some legendary trinket associated to these maps (like Aurora was for ls3 maps). This would make sense after ls4 is finished and would keep the related metas relevant for a long time.

    Though this is a solution just for ls4 map replay value. Core Tyria maps have "map rewards"which rotate, but I have no idea how successful that is as I've never bothered with it, even if the map reward is ectoplasm. :/

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    How about a new daily like the sunken treasure hunter daily?

    Complete events in (insert LS map). Reward: 1 black lion chest key piece

    5 black lion chest key pieces turn into a black lion chest key.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    TLDR: random rants, ignore and move on.


    I'm in favor of doing what they did with LS2 map, re-use and update/change them, adding more things each time, so the map eventually feels more "complete" and filled out with things to do.

    I admit I haven't been to many of the later maps, but the ones I've been on felt pretty shallow compared to the older maps (tyria, ls2, hot, somewhat pof but they just feel so empty).


    Regarding using rewards as carrot for maps. I honestly think this is the wrong way to go, as you're just making existing "bad habits" worse sort of. Rewards should come from playing something you enjoy, not enjoying something because of the rewards. Well that is at least my philosophy, seemingly a lot of people disagrees with me. But on that note, here is a different idea:

    Make rewards uniform over the entire game.

    This could be done by for example changing the entire reward system into a sort of "reward track", by removing all loot and stuff from the normal ways, but instead having everything you do, no matter what (other than afk'ing) add to that reward track, as long as you maintain a fairly generous amount of activity you get rewards.

    This would (hopefully) rewards everyone for just about anything they do normally in game (other than afk I guess), and would give people the same rewards no matter what they did. Then people could do what they enjoyed the most, instead of what they felt rewarded them the most.

    Bound to be some problems with a system like that. Also, specific goal rewards should still remain as they are, I'm mostly talking about the general rewards (mostly gold/hour, loot, mats, karma etc. But could potentially also include XP...).


    Both outside of that, and could even work combined with that, having a rotating system of increased reward for a few random maps for a week might help break up the staleness a bit.

    I'm not a fan of the usual mantra of "Add new unique rewards!" as I feel that is a band-aid solution, stuffed onto some grind to work. But an idea could be to add a system where 2 random maps each week got a "bonus reward" where getting X amount of activity/rewards on that maps gives you a single new currency, that you could trade in for a guaranteed access to some of the harder to get drops or other things that has rolled out of current time. Would be a way to roll in old things people might want back, but keeping it expensive.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: One Must Fall 2097, CODEX (cardgame)

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    An invasion of pocket raptors in Iron Marches? Maybe I'd check it out. How about pocket raptors who all have the Burning Speed and Drake's Breath skill? Hmm, That seems rather insane. I'd think I'd HAVE to see that.

    To me, this is the problem really. Sure, you'd have to see these insane pocket raptors, but not everyone else would share that interest. How does ANet provide incentives to visit maps that would appeal to the largest portion of the player base? With so many different types of players (and interests), I'm not even sure that they could figure that out.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DoNotBelieveMe.3029 said:
    Your answer would be in the form of HoT map wide Metas.

    The answer would be to introduce traditional quests that send you across the globe. We have enough meta events already, and it gets repetitive.


    My GW2 content charts: (1) LWS 4, (2) PoF , (3) Personal story (pre-Claw Island/Orr) , (4) LWS 2 , (5) HoT, (6) Orr campaign , (7) LWS 3

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    How about a new daily like the sunken treasure hunter daily?

    Complete events in (insert LS map). Reward: 1 black lion chest key piece

    5 black lion chest key pieces turn into a black lion chest key.

    Some sort of repeatable achievement that were a mix of that sunken treasure one and the dungeon frequenter one could work well. Perhaps it could have a daily random map, and completing 4 events there grants a tick progress, and after seven days you complete it and earn a bl key (would be a valid alternative to making a new character and taking it to the level 10 story weekly, and getting the key from one method would block the other).

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    How about a new daily like the sunken treasure hunter daily?

    Complete events in (insert LS map). Reward: 1 black lion chest key piece

    5 black lion chest key pieces turn into a black lion chest key.

    Some sort of repeatable achievement that were a mix of that sunken treasure one and the dungeon frequenter one could work well. Perhaps it could have a daily random map, and completing 4 events there grants a tick progress, and after seven days you complete it and earn a bl key (would be a valid alternative to making a new character and taking it to the level 10 story weekly, and getting the key from one method would block the other).

    I don't know if blocking the methods is really a good idea, I'm concerned it would mostly null the suggestion entirely due to more people sticking with the level 10 story weekly instead of being sent to places they don't know in advance.

  • Kahlan.7249Kahlan.7249 Member ✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    aurora v2 babyyy

    and/or rewardable metas that have map-wide timers, are on a schedule, and preferably on maps that aren't too annoying to... just be in.

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe they could just drop instanced content in those maps and sort of...highly incentivize the player base to buy the next to be 12 maps from season 3 and 4.

  • Lanhelin.3480Lanhelin.3480 Member ✭✭✭

    Previously pretty populated maps were nerfed (like the champs in Queensdale) because other players felt disturbed by the crowd. Most events and activities are designed not to spread out in a map but to concentrate and form a crowd, be it normal events, bandits, bounties or world bosses. The Tarir's and Dragon's Stand's metas are designed to split into three to four crowds, moving further step by step. There is only one exception to this design (but then followed by a crowd-event): the nearly map-wide collection of wild magic in Elon Riverlands. The invasion events of joko's soldiers in core tyria maps also differ slightly, because they have more than one spawn locations, but in its core these are crowd-requiring-events too.

    With this in mind, imho vitalizing maps can happen this way: if there's happening something that is needed to be completed for a higher goal. Currently these higher goals exist in form of collections and achievements on individual basis. It'd need some kind of Meta-Meta that includes more maps at the same time, so players have to spread out to complete it successfully. E.g. something like "Kryta caught the villain's eye. Secure areas all over Kryta to prevent the big bad thing." Random loot is obligatory here in GW2, but there also could be some less random like dungeon currency bags where players have a choice what to take as reward. For 99,9% of all players there still is something left they want, so the reward should be different enough to help them to achieve it, be it one of the currencies, crafting ressources or something else.

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would LOVE to see event dailies be for a region rather than a particular zone. I may have got that backwards, ie 'ascalon event completer' rather than 'diessa plateau event completer'. People doing dailies would spread out more into lesser used maps and maps that are better for finding events (which is not always the lowest level one) would attract more players, showing what people want.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • Glider.5792Glider.5792 Member ✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:
    If we are getting one with every episode ofc the maps will feel like throwaway content.

    We could compaire lw2 and lw3/4 for example: Silverwastes and drytop both have traffic years after their release.

    Equal parts because they are rewarding but also because they are bussy with events and a map wide event like structure makimg playing in them better overtime.

    We also didnt get more maps back then so they cpuld go back on these maps and simply expand them or add more content.

    If they have to make and release a new map every 3 months that simply wont happen.

    There are reasons why Drytop and Silverwastes are both still active, and they share one same reason: Account bound Materials for Legendary weapons.
    Ofc silverwastes is still more popular, due to realy rewarding meta, however due to collections and need for geodes and bandit crests, people are returning to both of these maps.
    This is where IMO ANet made a mistake. With LS3, they started releasing 2nd generation legendary weapons, and IMO the legendary which released in a specific episode, should require that episodes specific materials, probably around 250 (a stack) would be a good number. This way all of the maps would require more attention, at least from those that wish to build those legendaries.
    But sadly.. this wasn't realy a possible option, since ANet promised those legendaries as a HoT feature, which they still are. Due to that, those weapons couldn't be locked behind specific maps, especialy behind LS4 which belongs under PoF.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeFWMeskOJhk8N-SvOFCJXA
    Fractal speed kills, raids, Black Lion Chest Openings, random.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    The main problem with the living world maps is that they are treated as filler content. They can't easily add content to old maps because then they'd face backlash from those that weren't there when the episode was released. The system of the living world is what needs to be changed in order to increase living world map relevance. Arenanet needs to find a better way of handling their living world episodes, even very anti-consumer companies figured out that splitting the playerbase through "map packs" is a bad idea, and our living world maps work the same way as map packs and dlc of other games. Not to mention how newer players are required to pay extra to experience the story that leads up to the expansion they bought.

    The whole system of unlocking the living world maps needs an overhaul, at the very least they should allow map access to everyone, lock the story maybe, but not the map itself, giving them the opportunity to work on the living world maps and add what was missing, like doing justice to Gandara with a proper meta and no invisible walls.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    There could be a discussion on whether metas should have a global timer, so that players know in advance when to visit a map, or internal instance timers, which forces people to stick around for the meta to trigger.

    The downside of a meta approach is that people that for some reason need some non-meta related content (perhaps for a collection), they'll not be receiving help for their goal, so the meta isn't benefiting them at all. And then there's the issue of metas sharing timeslots and people going to the most profitable one only.

    For that reason I'd prefer some kind of daily task / achievement that would allow any event to progress it.

    @Menadena.7482 said:
    I would LOVE to see event dailies be for a region rather than a particular zone. I may have got that backwards, ie 'ascalon event completer' rather than 'diessa plateau event completer'. People doing dailies would spread out more into lesser used maps and maps that are better for finding events (which is not always the lowest level one) would attract more players, showing what people want.

    This could work. According to the wiki (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zone) , maps cover currently nine regions. However, some maps are much more popular than others, so when it's a "daily crystal desert event completer", you can bet most of the playerbase will do one Istan meta while Vabbi remains deserted. Perhaps this highlights that some maps really have low incentives to be visited currently.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The main problem with the living world maps is that they are treated as filler content. They can't easily add content to old maps because then they'd face backlash from those that weren't there when the episode was released. The system of the living world is what needs to be changed in order to increase living world map relevance. Arenanet needs to find a better way of handling their living world episodes, even very anti-consumer companies figured out that splitting the playerbase through "map packs" is a bad idea, and our living world maps work the same way as map packs and dlc of other games. Not to mention how newer players are required to pay extra to experience the story that leads up to the expansion they bought.

    The whole system of unlocking the living world maps needs an overhaul, at the very least they should allow map access to everyone, lock the story maybe, but not the map itself, giving them the opportunity to work on the living world maps and add what was missing, like doing justice to Gandara with a proper meta and no invisible walls.

    Farming the gold for unlocking an episode is cheap. They could also have a popup to sell the season(s) before an expansion for like x dollars if a player doesnt own it when hes looking to buy the expansion.

    Or simply scrap the idea of a new map each release, focus on less big maps which you ad onto each episode and expand.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    There could be a discussion on whether metas should have a global timer, so that players know in advance when to visit a map, or internal instance timers, which forces people to stick around for the meta to trigger.

    The downside of a meta approach is that people that for some reason need some non-meta related content (perhaps for a collection), they'll not be receiving help for their goal, so the meta isn't benefiting them at all. And then there's the issue of metas sharing timeslots and people going to the most profitable one only.

    For that reason I'd prefer some kind of daily task / achievement that would allow any event to progress it.

    @Menadena.7482 said:
    I would LOVE to see event dailies be for a region rather than a particular zone. I may have got that backwards, ie 'ascalon event completer' rather than 'diessa plateau event completer'. People doing dailies would spread out more into lesser used maps and maps that are better for finding events (which is not always the lowest level one) would attract more players, showing what people want.

    This could work. According to the wiki (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zone) , maps cover currently nine regions. However, some maps are much more popular than others, so when it's a "daily crystal desert event completer", you can bet most of the playerbase will do one Istan meta while Vabbi remains deserted. Perhaps this highlights that some maps really have low incentives to be visited currently.

    No more dailies pls i dont liek the game feeling like a job. Daily log ind and dailies in general just make the game less enjoyable.

    Also lets not talk about metas like we have 20 diff of them. We have like a bunch of worldbosses and we have no issue circling through them. The game can handle a bunch more metas on a schedule and not have real overlaps.

    Its worth noting tjat for such non meta content that ppl migh wanted to do there were groups running it. Biggest example is the hot hp trains.

  • Einlanzer.1627Einlanzer.1627 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    @Carighan.6758 said:
    Honestly I'd go back a step further: How many maps does a game where we don't outgrow maps actually need?

    The more maps you add, the less possible it becomes to keep them all relevant. It's similar to how the slew of skills, traits, item stats and all the billions of combinations cause balance issues: there's just too much, you could cut 95%++ and lose nothing of relevance because all these combinations would be factually sub-par.

    With maps, it's that the sheer volume means you cannot find a sensible reason for each map to be around. Even if each were needed for a farm material which can only be obtained there, you can't freely repeat this, plus it leads to plenty fan-ire as it is quite obvious how forced this is.

    A smarter solution, IMO, would be:

    • Use new maps as sparingly as possible. Adapt the story and progression to either remove zones for story/lore reasons as new get added or transform existing zones into what you need them to be, effectively being replaced by a new map which just shares a few similarities and the name.
    • Given the reduced pool of maps, categorize them into "farm maps" (you'd only need a handful of endgame materials since you don't have so many maps), "dangerous maps" (hold big metas, don't enter alone, like old Orr - higher money pay-off in a group in certain farm spots however!), "money maps" (efficient farm solo, less total income than dangerous maps of course). Each of the latter two types can exist once per common currency as farm maps are for materials.
    • Re-align maps to the new balance, effectively giving one optimal spot for each context and desire.

    I kinda disagree. To keep the game fresh for veteran players, new maps containing new reward tracks are needed to the same extent they are needed in any other continuous world game. The problem is when you have too many competing metas. All maps should have something for players to work toward, but true metas that require player cooperation should be relatively rare, otherwise you run the risk of splitting up players too much.

    Additionally, I would implement a reward cycle that incentivizes different maps at different times. I.e. there would only be a couple of "best farm" maps at any given time, but which map this is would hop around a bit. Instead of always being, say, Silverwastes and Istan. It's a way to make old maps relevant again and have players congregrate in places like Southsun Cove or Malchor's Leap.

  • DoNotBelieveMe.3029DoNotBelieveMe.3029 Member ✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @DoNotBelieveMe.3029 said:
    Your answer would be in the form of HoT map wide Metas.

    The answer would be to introduce traditional quests that send you across the globe. We have enough meta events already, and it gets repetitive.

    I would invite you to come up with an example of a traditional quest that will allow maps to enjoy the longevity enjoyed by HoT meta maps such as Auric Basin.
    And what would the traditional quest offer to players? A breath of fresh air? If it is something to the extent of Aurora or perhaps the weapon design contest winners quest for eclipse, it will be just a temporary one time fix. How long of a list of unique skins will have to be designed to keep the maps perpetually relevant?

    The 'current events' in game are already a sort of quest. When it is initially released, players milk them for all its worth and toss the maps involved aside after they are done collecting all the AP or skins associated with it. It usually doesn't take more than a week for the hype to end and then they go back to role-playing at Divinity's Reach, or doing some other reward farming.

    My view is that if you are a solo player, you are driven by rewards, if you are a social player you are driven by group content, and HoT Metas combine both. It simply caters to the widest demographic. Also each meta is unique, how can it possibly be repetitive?

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Einlanzer.1627 said:
    Additionally, I would implement a reward cycle that incentivizes different maps at different times. I.e. there would only be a couple of "best farm" maps at any given time, but which map this is would hop around a bit. Instead of always being, say, Silverwastes and Istan. It's a way to make old maps relevant again and have players congregrate in places like Southsun Cove or Malchor's Leap.

    hmm.... this sounds familiar, ain't this what the current core Tyria map rewards already are? Granted, the reward rotation is fixed, and LS maps have it set on "unbound / volatile magic", but the proper rewards could really serve this purpose. It all boils down to setting the criteria just right: rewarding enough to motivate people to be active in that map, without being too rewarding that it could disrupt the economy (like, say, placing amalgated stones as map reward could potentially crash their value).

  • Menadena.7482Menadena.7482 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One trend I shudder at is with core you had portals from one map to the next. With the new maps? Not so much, especially with the LW releases. It generates more of a waypoint to whatever zone rather than some of the traffic going through old zones. Which means that content in zones people have not seen in awhile is less likely to be encountered along the way. Even for new players because they are just WPing from one map to another. So you wind up with maps people have never actually been in because they did not happen to get there during 1-80 and do not have any reason to enter the map once they hit 80.

    It is not like it would be impossible either. Several new maps have been next to or near existing ones.

    New to the game? Feel free to give a yell if you need PVE help.

  • well yea i would like to have more continuity between maps, like the core game, where you could travel between maps as if they were a continuos of the landscape of the previous map. Aniway, about new maps, i think there will be no more usable space in tyria world map for having new maps XD. Where they will put the next one?

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just a note on the thread in general: Rewards will always be a short term solution. Just adding X type of reward, just means people will come and grind it out and leave again.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: One Must Fall 2097, CODEX (cardgame)

  • Hesacon.8735Hesacon.8735 Member ✭✭✭

    Increasing the amount of map bonus rewards in underplayed areas could attract some attention. Orr maps see play time on blood weeks.

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