Mesmer utility and damage — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Mesmer utility and damage

Moirg.7560Moirg.7560 Member ✭✭

Mesmer has every bit of utility you could ask for topped off with: clones, hard immunity and thief level frequency of invis if not more. Sustained damage is excellent and burst is instant making it harder to counter than most other classes/specs. This is no secret and is abused to the point where ranked teams are running 2/3 and even 4 mesmers. I'm only high gold, however my plat guildies (some previously legendary) say the problem doesn't stop in my league.

It's so oppressive to the point where I'd rather pull a fish-hook out of my stomach with a string than continue to play this game with its current surplus of mesmer BS.

Something needs to be done about it. Many things could be done, but capping their clone count at a lower number than it currently is would be a good start.

<1

Comments

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Moirg.7560 said:
    thief level frequency of invis if not more.

    How ?

    The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

    I thought it was our Cloak and dagger skill on scepter.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Moirg.7560 said:
    thief level frequency of invis if not more.

    How ?

    The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

    I thought it was our Cloak and dagger skill on scepter.

    Nah if you run that much stealth you cross over the threshold and your character literally stops existing.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Moirg.7560 said:
    thief level frequency of invis if not more.

    How ?

    The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

    I thought it was our Cloak and dagger skill on scepter.

    Nah if you run that much stealth you cross over the threshold and your character literally stops existing.

    Maybe that would be a good thing, at least then I wont have to deal with the forum tears about literally everything a mesmer does

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019

    If you're going to hit Condition Mirage Damage in PvP, these are the nerfs you want to do:

    Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
    I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

    Deceptive Evasion
    Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon.
    It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they initially spawn. This directly impacts the chaos variant of mirage, with it's gradual but much higher sustained condition damage and 1v1 potential.

    Cry of Pain
    Cry of Pain has been reverted back to Illusionary Retribution and instead of two additional stack of confusion per shatter with Cry of Frustration just apply 1 confusion per shatter for all of their shatter skills.
    I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher for those not in the know, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter until the phantasm rework. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion shatter output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously. This along side confusion being altered to do almost no damage per second and all of it's damage on skill activation is why suddenly condition mirages were melting people so, so hard after the phantasm rework.

    I'm personally fine with confusion doing large amounts of damage on skill activation, I like it from both a game play and flavor perspective, but Cry of Pain front loads too much. Cry of Frustration should clearly be a condition mesmer's bread and butter, but spreading the condition application out so that it requires more successful comboing of shatters to reap the benefits of it would be much healthier than what we have now.

    Axes of Symmetry
    Either nerf the confusion stacks to PvE levels (Three from Player for those not in the know), remove the detarget, or remove the evade. Bump the cooldown up to 15 seconds base 12 seconds traited regardless of which aspect is nerfed. Pick two you can't have three. As a selfish mirage main I want the damage and the evade and am happy to lose the detarget.

    After that, I really don't want too much else touched until condition cleanses and condition damage spreads are normalized at which point I would have a ton of changes I would like to see with mesmer and mirage in specific. Under the spoiler tag is my points on condition cleanses being heavily overtuned in the grand scheme of things.

    In general I would prefer mesmers of all stripes to win matches more through their unique team and solo utility rather than their ability to slam down kills. Stuff like Portal, Illusion of Life, Null Field, Arcane Thievery, Signet of Humility and Mass invisibility should be lynchpins of mesmer success across all builds in ranked and AT. But Portal was nerfed and everything else interesting is outright bad aside from Arcane Thievery. It should be a cerebral high skill cap class. But portal was nerfed so condition slammer it is I guess.

    "Aside from Mirage and Scourge nothing are rocking condition damage. And Reaper is at the very least just as popular of a build for ranked as Scourge if not moderately more popular than Scourge. The reality is condition cleanses and conversion into boons are both extremely over tuned at this point. Most classes can quickly throw off 3-7+ conditions repeatedly over the course of a single fight, or have strong resistance uptime. Scourge and Mirage are the only condition classes capable of keeping up not because their condition damage is high (It's not. Scourge and Mirage are actually some of the lowest condition damage available) but because they have a wide range of conditions (Or in Scourge's case a wide range of conditions and boon corruption) that gives their conditions a chance to dodge condition cleanses entirely.

    Condition damage has completely fallen behind Power Damage in the scheme of things. To put this into perspective; Condition Berserker, Condition Firebrand, Condition Weaver, and Condition Holosmith have the higher condition pressure. Far, far beyond what Condition Mirage and Scourge are capable of. But even putting aside other weaknesses in those builds, the single biggest weakness that prevents them from ever becoming meta is the fact that when every class can effortlessly throw off 5+ conditions multiple times a fight, the bulk of their damage being tied down into one or two conditions means their effective damage output is zero.

    Arenanet really needs to look at both normalizing the spread of conditions, balancing all classes around 2-3 damaging conditions with more serious ramping power. And also heavily pulling back condition cleanses to compensate for it. Cleanses are the condition damage equivalent to protection. It's supposed to help you negate damage, but at this point unless you're a build that can shotgun 6 conditions at once your effective damage output as condi is 0.

    Anet should nerf condition cleanses by 50%+ across the board then trim Mirage's condition spread and condense it into fewer conditions. Right now power damage is absolutely over tuned compared to condition damage 7/9 classes are exclusively running power on a meta level. Mirage is mostly exclusively condi and Necro run a 50/50 split of condi and power.

    I really want to see all the condition cleanses and conversions straight up reduced by 50%-75%. I genuinely think that's needed. Mesmers should have their cover conditions trimmed and their damaging conditions condensed into fewer conditions, mostly torment and confusion for thematic reasons with maybe a bit of burning with the torch skills. I think the reason you've seen tons of power creep when it comes to conditions cleanses is because Anet is a bit too focused on the only two meta builds keeping up and is power creeping cleanses in an arm race.

    But like let's say a Burn Firebrand vs. a Core Guardian. The Firebrand has a lot of self sustain just like the core guardian, it has easy application of it's condition skills. But that burn Firebrand will never be able to hurt the Core Guardian. How could it? The Firebrand has almost entirely burning and a little bit of bleed. And that's somehow supposed to punch through this:

    2x Condition Cleanse on Heal with Lesser Smite Condition
    2x Condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve
    2x Condition Cleanse on Smite Condition.
    12x Condition Conversion on Contemplation of Purity
    Condition Immunity during Renewed Focus
    2x condition Cleanse on Virtue of Resolve

    Now I'm not saying that Core Guardian is OP. It's not and it fits into the meta moderately well, but it's condition cleanses are so over the top for anything not a Scourge or a Mirage and against Mirage at least it can survive for a while.

    Or warriors who have:
    Healing Signet 6 seconds resistance
    12x Condition Cleanse with Signet of Stamina
    6x Condition Cleanse x 2 with Shake it Off
    Maybe running Berserker Stance still 4 seconds resistance

    Unless you're a Mirage or Scourge you aren't going to be able to punch through that with condition damage. Period."

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

    That means nothing when the class is just in general not fun to fight against.

    Nothing is fun to fight against so much as they are fun to kill. Kind of like how AngelLovesFredrik unironically said that Core Mesmer is fun to fight in the "Are mesmers fun to fight" thread. Do you think that's because of the interesting elaborate dance and give and take of the match up between Core Guardian vs. Core Mesmer or because Core Mesmer is not a viable build in both ranked and AT has been largely abandoned by both great players and mediocre players since Heart of Thorns and are effectively free kills for Core Guardian to grind into the dirt, which is the class he mains?

    People think the classes they win against are fun to fight. The classes they often lose to are not fun to fight.

    I actually prefer challenging fights against good players. Even if I lose if the fight was good then I'm satisfied, or rather I keep trying to improve. Fighting Mirages is not fun, it doesn't even qualify as challenging its just annoying and exhausting. I have actually had some pretty good fights against Chronos and some Power Shatter Core mesmers because these players were actually good and no I did not win them all, this is not some GW2 Youtuber montage video where all the fights you see are them winning. I have 1v1s where its a back and forth, trading wins but I still enjoy that or I end up losing all of them but I still enjoyed the fight because they were good fights. I've fought Tubby 1v1 (RIP sucks that he quit) and I lost every single duel but I still enjoyed the fights.

    Also I could get into a whole discussion as to why Ranked, and I think by extension AT at this point, need to no longer be about Conquest and they need to induct either 2v2 matches as Ranked and AT or bring back team que (5 player premades) as an actual que option. At this point the former is probably the better idea, to keep it short, because Conquest is an outdated AoE creeped mess that gets worse with every expansion that releases and a 2v2 death match scenario sounds more preferable.

    You want to know how sick, messed up, hardcore and edgy I am? When someone tells me "Good Fight" all I respond with is

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
    I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

    It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

    And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.

    1. Remove dodging through CC
    2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

    I mean is it really that hard?

    Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

  • Abelisk.4527Abelisk.4527 Member ✭✭✭✭

    -Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind enables Mirage Cloak to be used while CC'd; it also cleanses a condition.

  • @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
    I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

    It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

    And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.

    1. Remove dodging through CC
    2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

    I mean is it really that hard?

    Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

    Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

    That means nothing when the class is just in general not fun to fight against.

    Nothing is fun to fight against so much as they are fun to kill. Kind of like how AngelLovesFredrik unironically said that Core Mesmer is fun to fight in the "Are mesmers fun to fight" thread. Do you think that's because of the interesting elaborate dance and give and take of the match up between Core Guardian vs. Core Mesmer or because Core Mesmer is not a viable build in both ranked and AT has been largely abandoned by both great players and mediocre players since Heart of Thorns and are effectively free kills for Core Guardian to grind into the dirt, which is the class he mains?

    People think the classes they win against are fun to fight. The classes they often lose to are not fun to fight.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/780415#Comment_780415
    Feel free to check

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    mirages make the best bots

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
    I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

    It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

    And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.

    1. Remove dodging through CC
    2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

    I mean is it really that hard?

    Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

    Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

    Except yours doesn't have nearly as long of a cooldown as these other immunities/invulns/dodges. Endure Pain on Warrior? 60 second ICD in WvW 90 second ICD in sPvP. Instant Reflexes on thief? 40 second ICD for 2 second evade. Elixir S? No longer a passive proc but the active skill yes lasts for a while but even so still on a longer cooldown than Mirage Cloak ever is.

    Yes Mirage has one that you need to activate yourself, but it is much more readily available than these passives that you're trying to call out. You guys have enough defenses while not CC'd, bringing this one down to an acceptable level isn't going to invalidate your class against other classes. Don't worry, you're still going to be able to chain defenses, kite, and then rinse and repeat like you always did only if this change happens then if you get CC'd you get punished...as you should.

  • @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

    Why eat cheese when I don't want cheese? What is with this off the line response to everything "play this class to find its weakness!! It has many!!" as excuse for something not over performing. Mirage is OP Period. Yes, mirage has weaknesses, few (Yep!, few, not many) and far between that mistakes are not penalized compared to any other class.

  • ilmi.5369ilmi.5369 Member ✭✭

    Does everyone nowadays do not read the forums but just comes here to release some brain pressure? There are plenty of Mesmer complain threads and Anet already summed some up to structure the "feedback". Dig them out, read them from start to end and then push them up by adding your own thoughts and suggestions. Most was said already. It does not help to flood the forums with quadouble-threads about the same nonsense. kkthxbb

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
    I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

    It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

    And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.

    1. Remove dodging through CC
    2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

    I mean is it really that hard?

    Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

    Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

    That would be ideal and should have been done a long time ago IMO.

    Funfact: Tera PvP went through this problem and just disabled all passives that auto-trigger to save you from death because they were broken. They legit rewrote their code so that if you took damage from a player the passive would stop working. The kicker is these passives had over triple the cooldown as the ones we get in GW2 and even then it was determined to be broken.

    Anet seriously underestimates just how strong get out of jail free cards really are. The fact that people still take them even after the cooldowns for most of them were doubled a few seasons ago should really raise a massive red flag.

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
    I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

    It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

    And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.

    1. Remove dodging through CC
    2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

    I mean is it really that hard?

    Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

    Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

    There are no traits in this game that give you invuln/evade on being CC'ed. Beyond that there are only 3 traits in the entire game that give you invuln/evade passively, and they all have cooldowns in excess of 70s.

    But tell me more about how those 3 70s cooldown traits are totally equal to mirage's sub 10s dodge cooldown

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    Mirage Cloak No Longer Works while Stunned, Knocked Back, Launched, or floated. Elusive Mind does something else entirely.
    I mean come on, it's been over a year now and everyone know this is a toxic behavior especially mesmers since it's inception.

    It's truly bizarre, because this change has been something everyone including even mirage mains agree is busted.

    And yet it's still in the game in this broken state.

    1. Remove dodging through CC
    2. Rework elusive mind to just remove 2 condis and have absolutely nothing to do with breaking stuns

    I mean is it really that hard?

    Anet could release a balance patch with just those two changes alone, nothing else, and the meta would be in a better state.

    Fine, but all passive survival traits need to not activate if you are CC'ed. No free immunities for you. I mean, we have to at least press our dodge and it lasts a lot less than most passive immunities/invulns/dodges.

    There are no traits in this game that give you invuln/evade on being CC'ed. Beyond that there are only 3 traits in the entire game that give you invuln/evade passively, and they all have cooldowns in excess of 70s.

    But tell me more about how those 3 70s cooldown traits are totally equal to mirage's sub 10s dodge cooldown

    What?

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @Daishi.6027 said:

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue.

    I remember being totally confused by the trait descriptions in this synergy when first dipping my toe in the sPvP water not so long ago. So I didn't run Dueling on my condi mirage and never felt like I was blowing anyone up. Is the blind/confusion synergy the main culprit behind peoples' complaints about mirage's condi output? Going to try traiting it to see what the fuss is about.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue.

    I remember being totally confused by the trait descriptions in this synergy when first dipping my toe in the sPvP water not so long ago. So I didn't run Dueling on my condi mirage and never felt like I was blowing anyone up. Is the blind/confusion synergy the main culprit behind peoples' complaints about mirage's condi output? Going to try traiting it to see what the fuss is about.

    It shouldn't be as that's been in the game for quite some time.

    The things people seem to be focusing on after sifting through their incoherent drivel is dying rather quickly and not being able to land damage on the Mirage. So it just seems Axe 2, Axe 3, and IA are causing the issues with people.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Mirage mechanical nerfs would be fair if burst didn’t revolve around a clunky mechanic that is exploitable by any player, and if it had higher coefficients for simple and quick direct attacks.

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue. People go on and on about “it evades while stunned” yet despite this power mirage is still considered mediocre, and carried by one combo with less frequency, and safety than other burst combos from any other class. (Excluding the nukey meme ele) If this is so strong and imbalanced why does it not simply top charts with both condi and power with teams trying to stack them?

    Every class has its sustain tools and methods. From warriors being bulky with passive healing, ele and holo’s easy and safe sustain cycles, to thief and ranger having way more access to evades and massive damage that comes out pretty quick sometimes at a distance, and in the case of guard, thief, and rev; while ignoring LoS.
    Some classes even have passive safety nets on top of already strong defensive tools. Mirage Clock is just another tool like these.

    The mechanic is strong but it’s not imba, it’s not that hard to play around nor is it outside the scope of the balance when once upon a time before elite specs, many classes and builds, including core Mesmer were not able to lock down a thief if they didn’t want to be. In the case of Mesmer, could barely even pressure with how illusions functioned since they required a target. Granted we’ve come a long way from that, now everyone has the tools to fight back against each other, mirage cloak is simply another of those tools and still allows for counter matchups. Although powerful is not that difficult to play around for any spec if you can read. Often with ranger and holo I’ve simply waited a second anticipating them to dodge, only to nuke and kill them right after.

    Yes, this means you HAVE to play around it, you don’t really have a choice, but the same can be said about Deadeye stealth, Warrior coldowns, and guard burst.

    Condi Mirage could use output shaves, but it’s defensive options don’t need to be touched. If you disincentives condi form stacking blinds I guarantee you will have a much more balanced build.

    Possibly. Blind doesn't help things when fighting a Condi Mirage, but they are tanky enough as is that they could slim down the defenses on Mirage in general. I don't like that one can still get melted into a puddle when running tanky stats like Trailblazer just because of how Condi scaling works on things like Torment and Confusion, possibly other condis as well but that is a different topic. Even fighting Power Mirages can get tricky when it comes to Infinite Horizon and Mirage Cloak being usable while the Mirage is CC'd.

    Like I've said before, Mirage Cloak being used while CC'd is similar to a Thief trait called Instant Reflexes and that has a 40 second internal cooldown. Whereas Mirage gets access to this and it is on a much shorter cooldown making it available much more frequently on top of their other defenses. I have no problems with Mirage Cloak, I've figured things out generally well enough to be able to time around Mirage defenses and actually land damage and stuns, however it gets immeasurably frustrating when I put in that effort, finally land the CC and then the Mirage just "nopes" it every time. Infinite Horizon also needs an ICD to actually allow for more counterplay against Condi Mirages, and sometimes by extension Power Mirages considering both vomit out illusions, due to how frequently Mirage Cloak can be used. I'm not talking about some 40 second or longer ICD, I'm talking more along the lines of 15 to 20 second ICD on the trait.

    As for Thief, Mesmer isn't the only class to have difficulty locking them down because more often than not a good thief can just decide to not get touched by most anything. Best mobility in the game for a reason, and pile Stealth into that and you just get backstab poked multiple times and die or you have to deal with the pesky cheese that is Pistol Whip spam. Thieves will very often debate that they have it rough because they are so squishy, and I do agree they are squishy but more often than not a good Thief is probably one of the more annoying things I fight as a melee class. Tbh Thief would probably have an easier time against Soulbeasts if Longbow range actually worked as intended and didn't still hit targets at about 1750 range still so long as you're not activating it with Auto attack and are firing it manually (yes this is a thing still).

  • @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Mirage mechanical nerfs would be fair if burst didn’t revolve around a clunky mechanic that is exploitable by any player, and if it had higher coefficients for simple and quick direct attacks.

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue. People go on and on about “it evades while stunned” yet despite this power mirage is still considered mediocre, and carried by one combo with less frequency, and safety than other burst combos from any other class. (Excluding the nukey meme ele) If this is so strong and imbalanced why does it not simply top charts with both condi and power with teams trying to stack them?

    Every class has its sustain tools and methods. From warriors being bulky with passive healing, ele and holo’s easy and safe sustain cycles, to thief and ranger having way more access to evades and massive damage that comes out pretty quick sometimes at a distance, and in the case of guard, thief, and rev; while ignoring LoS.
    Some classes even have passive safety nets on top of already strong defensive tools. Mirage Clock is just another tool like these.

    The mechanic is strong but it’s not imba, it’s not that hard to play around nor is it outside the scope of the balance when once upon a time before elite specs, many classes and builds, including core Mesmer were not able to lock down a thief if they didn’t want to be. In the case of Mesmer, could barely even pressure with how illusions functioned since they required a target. Granted we’ve come a long way from that, now everyone has the tools to fight back against each other, mirage cloak is simply another of those tools and still allows for counter matchups. Although powerful is not that difficult to play around for any spec if you can read. Often with ranger and holo I’ve simply waited a second anticipating them to dodge, only to nuke and kill them right after.

    Yes, this means you HAVE to play around it, you don’t really have a choice, but the same can be said about Deadeye stealth, Warrior coldowns, and guard burst.

    Condi Mirage could use output shaves, but it’s defensive options don’t need to be touched. If you disincentives condi form stacking blinds I guarantee you will have a much more balanced build.

    Possibly. Blind doesn't help things when fighting a Condi Mirage, but they are tanky enough as is that they could slim down the defenses on Mirage in general. I don't like that one can still get melted into a puddle when running tanky stats like Trailblazer

    Its not WVW section , its pvp

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue.

    I remember being totally confused by the trait descriptions in this synergy when first dipping my toe in the sPvP water not so long ago. So I didn't run Dueling on my condi mirage and never felt like I was blowing anyone up. Is the blind/confusion synergy the main culprit behind peoples' complaints about mirage's condi output? Going to try traiting it to see what the fuss is about.

    It shouldn't be as that's been in the game for quite some time.

    The things people seem to be focusing on after sifting through their incoherent drivel is dying rather quickly and not being able to land damage on the Mirage. So it just seems Axe 2, Axe 3, and IA are causing the issues with people.

    I think the problem is mostly condi output. I can't thunk of any other class besides scourge able to apply large quantities of unique conditions or stacks of conditions as frequently as mirage. I bet if we fix that issue then we fix a majority of the complaints.
    Conditions being a damage over time mechanic shouldn't have burst capabilities.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    Condi output, and specifically having significant damage synergy with blinds is the issue.

    I remember being totally confused by the trait descriptions in this synergy when first dipping my toe in the sPvP water not so long ago. So I didn't run Dueling on my condi mirage and never felt like I was blowing anyone up. Is the blind/confusion synergy the main culprit behind peoples' complaints about mirage's condi output? Going to try traiting it to see what the fuss is about.

    It shouldn't be as that's been in the game for quite some time.

    The things people seem to be focusing on after sifting through their incoherent drivel is dying rather quickly and not being able to land damage on the Mirage. So it just seems Axe 2, Axe 3, and IA are causing the issues with people.

    I think the problem is mostly condi output. I can't thunk of any other class besides scourge able to apply large quantities of unique conditions or stacks of conditions as frequently as mirage. I bet if we fix that issue then we fix a majority of the complaints.
    Conditions being a damage over time mechanic shouldn't have burst capabilities.

    Classes that ramp up 1 or two single damaging conditions up and up and up over the course of a fight like condis are supposed to play aren't viable at all.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 15, 2019

    The problem with this thread is that being OP isn't necessarily the same as not fun to play against and the cause of what makes condi mirage so viable isn't necessarily the same as what makes it not fun to fight against.

    1. From the "Do you enjoy fighting mesmers" poll, I saw every answer from clones, to the ability to portal 25 people over great distances, to not liking the colors pink and purple. However, the only one that popped up more than once was the high 'defense' uptime. By defense I mostly mean evades, distortion, and stealth. Therefore, I truly believe these features make Mesmer not fun to play against, even if that was the intended 'mirage' theme.

    2. High 'defense' uptime does not necessarily make mirage OP. I have seen it pointed out before by someone on the forums listing the top spots on the leader boards one by one and showing that mirages don't make up a larger than expected portion of the spots. At the time I believe there was only one in the top 10 and they were not in the top 5. However, I don't remember perfectly. Regardless, only Anet has access to all the data and since I have not seen any disputes against his/her claim, it's at least a distinct possibility that condi mirage is fairly 'balanced' but not seen as fun to play against by many in the community. Additionally, power mirage is vastly different than condi mirage. I know metabattle isn't always the best website for comparisons. However, if power mirage is not ranked meta, not even ranked great, but only ranked good, this means that at least some believe it is not vastly OP. Yet power mirage has access to almost the exact same defensive skills that every one complains about. Sure, condi mirage may have access to more defense through the chaos line. However, these these traits are not the ones everyone complains about and have have been around for god knows how long.

    3. Therefore, if this is the case, if the traits that are deemed 'not fun' by the community are nerfed, it may a least be a possibility that condi mirage may need to be buffed by other means to be viable, and certainly power mirage. It depends on the nerf. For balancing reasons, I believe cutting condi output like Daishi.6027 mentioned would be the best option. It would help move condi and power closer together in viability, which is good for balancing reasons. However, this also may not solve the 'fun factor' problem. Although, I know I also need to take the 'fun factor' problem with at least a little grain of salt as it comes from the same group who at one time displayed the most popular answer saying elusive mind was what originally made condi mirages so OP.

    In conclusion, my question is: If this is the case, what would be the best way of handling the situation?

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2019

    Condi mirage is such a bs build that every time i tried to play it in an attempt to learn how it works, i cant figure out anything. All i know is that if i just spread out my shatters and evades instead of burning them all up front, eventually my opponent will just randomly die.

    Passive clone generation / spam everywhere and then all these clones do non-negigible, passive autoattack damage for you because condi. The damage gets upgraded to a burst every time you press dodge or shatter, with many of the attacks having convinent delays spread out for you so it takes the opponent more than one dodge to avoid. Eg. axe2 + dodge leaves behind a high dmg axe ambush that strikes after a delay and it often require double dodges to avoid both skills. Another common one is torch phantasm that is cruical to avoid but mirage will just distract/force your dodges with the aformentioned axe+evade+maybe shatter combo. Having bursts on instant cast shatters also doesnt help me learn anything. No obvious animation to differenciate between the shatters except f4.

    The phantasm rework making them not count towards a clone slot when initially summoned is also really stupid, especially on a mirage that can kitten out clones constantly, since it means you dont really have to manage your clones anymore when using your shatters. Just keep pressing those skills that generate clones/phantasms off cd and dont press every single shatter at once. No clone management = no obvious phase of attack to watch out for.

    Only weakness i can ever figure out when playing condi mirage is if the opponent is actually specifically built to counter it. i.e. builds with lots of sustains through condi clears and/or aoe spam -- proc holo, guardians, boonbeast, mender weaver, and thief on shortbow that can land their steals. Cant ever figure out how to properly dodge and mechanically win against condi mirages.

  • UfoCoffee.2084UfoCoffee.2084 Member ✭✭✭

    Make it so they can't move when they dodge. It keeps them in the same place. Same as what they do to us when we're loaded with 25 stacks of torment.

  • KryTiKaL.3125KryTiKaL.3125 Member ✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    Condi mirage is such a bs build that every time i tried to play it in an attempt to learn how it works, i cant figure out anything. All i know is that if i just spread out my shatters and evades instead of burning them all up front, eventually my opponent will just randomly die.

    If this is what is happening you are fighting people equally ignorant of the class.

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    Only weakness i can ever figure out when playing condi mirage is if the opponent is actually specifically built to counter it. i.e. builds with lots of sustains through condi clears and/or aoe spam -- proc holo, guardians, boonbeast, mender weaver, and thief on shortbow that can land their steals. Cant ever figure out how to properly dodge and mechanically win against condi mirages.

    If that's your claim, 5/9 classes with build options isn't bad for counter picks, and some are quite viable. Question is do you think they actually know what they are doing? or do they just naturally counter it without trying and the mirage just randomly dies or loses all it's options? I'd like a serious answer to this.

    Also I know from first hand usage you can do just fine vs condi mirage on thief without shortbow or dagger, could also with power mirage using less powerful builds like taking unviable weapons and traits (My favorite way to kill mesmers <3~), which stands to reason a more viable build can outplay it as well. Something harder for me to do, and admittedly a harder match-up since nerfs; but if you play around their teleport options and pressure them properly, it's easy to set up for a rampage win with warrior. You do need to count cooldowns though.
    These however requires a knowledge of the class to pull off. At least for what I'm aware of for what I play with. I'm not good enough with the likes of necro or rev to be able to tell you.

    I'm not opposed to shaves to condi's output as I have said, but I don't think ignorance is enough for a valid claim that something is "BS" (and by extension Imba/OP) when more than half the roster has counter options.

    You're actually the only Mirage (I assume) that I've personally seen suggesting shaving down some of their Condi pressure/application. That could help some to compensate for the sheer number of defenses a Mirage has in general, but honestly I don't think you want Anet to go that route if you look at how they nerf damage (i.e what happened to Full Counter). That requires them to fiddle with numbers and delve deeper into how condi damage scales in general (which they should at some point honestly). The other solution, which I think is still necessary just based on comparisons to other classes, is that they put an ICD on Infinite Horizon (15 to 20 seconds at least) and remove the ability to apply/use Mirage Cloak while CC'd. It won't nullify the class, it won't remove it from meta, what it will do is bring it more in line with other classes and especially tone down on Condi Mirage.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    @SteepledHat.1345 said:
    Something does need to be done. The playerbase needs to roll a mesmer and find it's weaknesses. There are many.

    This joke has been repeated several times. Let's get real.

  • @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    Condi mirage is such a bs build that every time i tried to play it in an attempt to learn how it works, i cant figure out anything. All i know is that if i just spread out my shatters and evades instead of burning them all up front, eventually my opponent will just randomly die.

    If this is what is happening you are fighting people equally ignorant of the class.

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    Only weakness i can ever figure out when playing condi mirage is if the opponent is actually specifically built to counter it. i.e. builds with lots of sustains through condi clears and/or aoe spam -- proc holo, guardians, boonbeast, mender weaver, and thief on shortbow that can land their steals. Cant ever figure out how to properly dodge and mechanically win against condi mirages.

    If that's your claim, 5/9 classes with build options isn't bad for counter picks, and some are quite viable. Question is do you think they actually know what they are doing? or do they just naturally counter it without trying and the mirage just randomly dies or loses all it's options? I'd like a serious answer to this.

    Also I know from first hand usage you can do just fine vs condi mirage on thief without shortbow or dagger, could also with power mirage using less powerful builds like taking unviable weapons and traits (My favorite way to kill mesmers <3~), which stands to reason a more viable build can outplay it as well. Something harder for me to do, and admittedly a harder match-up since nerfs; but if you play around their teleport options and pressure them properly, it's easy to set up for a rampage win with warrior. You do need to count cooldowns though.
    These however requires a knowledge of the class to pull off. At least for what I'm aware of for what I play with. I'm not good enough with the likes of necro or rev to be able to tell you.

    I'm not opposed to shaves to condi's output as I have said, but I don't think ignorance is enough for a valid claim that something is "BS" (and by extension Imba/OP) when more than half the roster has counter options.

    You're actually the only Mirage (I assume) that I've personally seen suggesting shaving down some of their Condi pressure/application.

    I'm relatively new to the forums but even I could name at least a few mesmer mains who routinely agree with shaving condi output. They also agree with removing Mirage Cloak on CC among other commonly complained about mechanics. The mes regulars are really pretty reasonable.

    But even if Anet did everything you suggest, would you be willing to bet the community would stop complaining about mes? I'm doubtful.

  • Many of the issues I have with mirage (and mesmers) are how overloaded must of their skills are.

    Why does their heal, in addition to healing and granting vigor + 1 second evade also have to inflict weakness?
    Why does scepter 2 (on a 5s cooldown traited) block, inflict 5-7 torment, chunk for 2.5k on carrion and spawn two illusions?
    Why does iAmbush have almost half the cooldown of Judges Intervention, in addition to granting a second of evade?
    Why does Axe 3 target break, condiburst as well as power burst on top of evading?

    You see where this is going. Nothing is too much by itself. But then you stack all of it into one build, that's when you get the abomination that is Mirage.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    mirage
    holo
    guard
    boonbeast

    all of the above have too much damage considering all utility. nerf the above four as named, and not any other version, and the game will be balanced

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @KryTiKaL.3125 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    Condi mirage is such a bs build that every time i tried to play it in an attempt to learn how it works, i cant figure out anything. All i know is that if i just spread out my shatters and evades instead of burning them all up front, eventually my opponent will just randomly die.

    If this is what is happening you are fighting people equally ignorant of the class.

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    Only weakness i can ever figure out when playing condi mirage is if the opponent is actually specifically built to counter it. i.e. builds with lots of sustains through condi clears and/or aoe spam -- proc holo, guardians, boonbeast, mender weaver, and thief on shortbow that can land their steals. Cant ever figure out how to properly dodge and mechanically win against condi mirages.

    If that's your claim, 5/9 classes with build options isn't bad for counter picks, and some are quite viable. Question is do you think they actually know what they are doing? or do they just naturally counter it without trying and the mirage just randomly dies or loses all it's options? I'd like a serious answer to this.

    Also I know from first hand usage you can do just fine vs condi mirage on thief without shortbow or dagger, could also with power mirage using less powerful builds like taking unviable weapons and traits (My favorite way to kill mesmers <3~), which stands to reason a more viable build can outplay it as well. Something harder for me to do, and admittedly a harder match-up since nerfs; but if you play around their teleport options and pressure them properly, it's easy to set up for a rampage win with warrior. You do need to count cooldowns though.
    These however requires a knowledge of the class to pull off. At least for what I'm aware of for what I play with. I'm not good enough with the likes of necro or rev to be able to tell you.

    I'm not opposed to shaves to condi's output as I have said, but I don't think ignorance is enough for a valid claim that something is "BS" (and by extension Imba/OP) when more than half the roster has counter options.

    You're actually the only Mirage (I assume) that I've personally seen suggesting shaving down some of their Condi pressure/application. That could help some to compensate for the sheer number of defenses a Mirage has in general, but honestly I don't think you want Anet to go that route if you look at how they nerf damage (i.e what happened to Full Counter). That requires them to fiddle with numbers and delve deeper into how condi damage scales in general (which they should at some point honestly). The other solution, which I think is still necessary just based on comparisons to other classes, is that they put an ICD on Infinite Horizon (15 to 20 seconds at least) and remove the ability to apply/use Mirage Cloak while CC'd. It won't nullify the class, it won't remove it from meta, what it will do is bring it more in line with other classes and especially tone down on Condi Mirage.

    I honestly would prefer A-net go that route. The survivability is strong, but it's ultimately on par with the rest of the roster, as I cited before how Power mirage being in the same camp is not over performing. If those changes did come then power would unjustly be nerfed just to bring condi in line. This is why I say mirage cloak even the evade while CCed is fine as is. In general I wouldn't take away a DD's dodge, DE's stealth, or a warrior's sturdy body. This is the design of the class and really isn't a problem so long as it's not breaking conquest.

    With things like old Cele ele when teams would run 4 of them, their survivability alone was not an issue but they had more than enough power to sustain on point keeping the contest, and did just enough damage beyond anyone else's defensive options, to eventually fully exhaust and kill them.
    Or in the case of S1 Chrono bunk that would rotate cooldowns and live, then gave alacrity to allies, double moa, and quickness rez + quickness stop was way to game changing for team fights; So in both these cases something had to be done.

    Condi mirage is not quite that far, top rankings are decent indication of that, however the output is an obvious issue.

    As for Infinite horizon, is not powerful enough to justify a 15 to 20 second cooldown, the only ambush that is over performing right now is the one on Axe and that again is part of the condi output issue which can be resolved in other ways while leaving that intact.
    A tip, for when being engaged by a condi mirage who offensively pushes with mirage cloak means they used their dodge as part of their DPS and is something you can capitalize on later.

    Daishi is a good but reasonable, no macro mesmer. I agree with them

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:
    Why does iAmbush have almost half the cooldown of Judges Intervention, in addition to granting a second of evade?

    I don't think it's fair to compare skills when the entire kit needs to be taken into account.
    However to this one in particular: Judges Intervention is a stun break that allows you to precast whatever you want, puts you right on your target, hits them for an okay amount of damage, and applies a pretty lengthy burn.
    In general though very few stunbreaks in game have cooldowns under 30 seconds.

    iAmbush by comparison forces an ambush, randomly places you around your target, has no base damage factor, and keeps you CCed. Keep in mind, as nice as the evade is the main reason for it is to trigger ambushes on all illusions, and thus why it procs clone ambushes even without infinite horizon.

    It's essentially a 1 second evade on a 20 second cooldown with a shuffle, I find it hard to compare that 1 - 1 with judges intervention.

    Not that it matters for my point, but this is only a recent issue being more commonly seen in condi's repertoire as most used to use this slot for portal.

  • @Daishi.6027 said:
    As for Infinite horizon, is not powerful enough to justify a 15 to 20 second cooldown, the only ambush that is over performing right now is the one on Axe and that again is part of the condi output issue which can be resolved in other ways while leaving that intact.

    No, except greatsword's every other ambushes are bs with IH. Axe just happens to do the most damage while sword's is just as overtuned because it dashes, generates a clone, and chain dazes. Staff and scepter's both do enough condi damage with IH that they cannot just be flat out ignored.

  • Just look at this. Pls.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Moirg.7560 said:
    thief level frequency of invis if not more.

    How ?

    The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

    There is no such trait from mirage that gives them stealth on dodge. At least read up on the things you talk about, instead of spreading misinformation. Thank you.

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shadow.5983 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Moirg.7560 said:
    thief level frequency of invis if not more.

    How ?

    The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

    There is no such trait from mirage that gives them stealth on dodge. At least read up on the things you talk about, instead of spreading misinformation. Thank you.

    That was a joke you know ?

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadow.5983 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Moirg.7560 said:
    thief level frequency of invis if not more.

    How ?

    The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

    There is no such trait from mirage that gives them stealth on dodge. At least read up on the things you talk about, instead of spreading misinformation. Thank you.

    I didn't say stealth on dodge. I said dodge on stealth.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Shadow.5983 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @everyman.4375 said:

    @Moirg.7560 said:
    thief level frequency of invis if not more.

    How ?

    The mirage trait that gives them dodge on stealth, but twice as much as Deadeye, obviously.

    There is no such trait from mirage that gives them stealth on dodge. At least read up on the things you talk about, instead of spreading misinformation. Thank you.

    I didn't say stealth on dodge. I said dodge on stealth.

    Surely you meant invuln on jump?

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

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