Mirage condiction is absurd — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Mirage condiction is absurd

Brugnera.5024Brugnera.5024 Member
edited January 15, 2019 in Mesmer

Seriously, it's already time of Arenanet nerf the Mirage condictions, you still do not understand that this class is absurdly strong? It is not possible after so many years of administration to continue with such imbalanced classes.

Comments

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Funny thing.

    The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they nearly won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

    Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

    But yeah.

    Condi mirage is absurd.

    U simply pointed out another mirage + boonbeast - another overcreeped spec. In 2nd situation, we have a bunker + warrior, and u had problems not with sustaining but with killing them, which is kinda OK. (I don't like the fact, healers can be so kitten tanky in this game but w/e).
    Boonbeast has balance problems, while mirage is just a trash design(1s evade, in which u can do everything + being able to dodge if stunned kitten) in addition to tons of condi application. Classes without lot of condi cleanse, are highly unflavored.
    I agree, mesmers got high skill cap, but it's to easy to be so ridiculously effective.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Funny thing.

    The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they nearly won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

    Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

    But yeah.

    Condi mirage is absurd.

    U simply pointed out another mirage + boonbeast - another overcreeped spec. In 2nd situation, we have a bunker + warrior, and u had problems not with sustaining but with killing them, which is kinda OK. (I don't like the fact, healers can be so kitten tanky in this game but w/e).
    Boonbeast has balance problems, while mirage is just a trash design(1s evade, in which u can do everything + being able to dodge if stunned kitten) in addition to tons of condi application. Classes without lot of condi cleanse, are highly unflavored.
    I agree, mesmers got high skill cap, but it's to easy to be so ridiculously effective.

    TL;DR all classes are powercreeped and thats why its absurd to say that the condi mirage is absurd.

    As I told problem with mirage is trash design, overvreep stands only for balance that can be fixed. Classes like mirage are hard to balance due to thing I mentioned

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2019

    The thing is, mirage skill set is very good against nubs who just spam away, to counter a good player playing it you need to be a player that pays attention and reacts doing fight not just carrying out your paper-concieved rotations. In other words, lots of nubs find it hard to deal with when they just spam random on it, then come to forums coz omg it's impossible i need to use my brain.

  • Kas.3509Kas.3509 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Kas.3509 said:
    You just need to learn to counterplay instead of complaining. Follow 3 steps:
    1. Dont spam your skills when under confusion, just condi cleanse and dont run around with torment -> condi cleanse first
    2. Dodge the main burst
    3. Profit
    It's really not that hard. I main mirage yet in PvP it's not my favourite class.

    I honestly don't care at all about what you do with mirage in PvP/WvW as I prefer to play easier and more rewarding classes there, but please stop nerfing it in PVE already. It's not bad but far off top dmg charts. It'll always belong to guardian/ele/thief/reve anyway it seems : P

    Also - when a lot of people thinks one way doesn't mean it's right. I am sure 90% of consumers believe they should get things cheaper or free. Is it the right way for the company to listen to them?
    Answer it yourself :P.

    Anet has statistics of who wins and loses against who and in what league and that is worth a lot more than some complainers or praisers on forums - because believe me even if 1000 players complain they're still a very small % of a whole playerbase and usually player just want the profession they like to get super boosted and everything else super nerfed. That's how it is.

    Some of this I do agree with, but there are also more underlying issues that also invalidates a lot of what you present as well. I'll go over those.
    1) It is true that a lot of people continue to spam skills (especially auto attacks) when they have confusion on them, so it results in a very rapid burn of health at the cost of their ignorance (I won't say stupidity, as they might now know why they could be dying really fast). Also, when you have torment on you, yes you do want to stay still so you don't eat the full brunt of the passive damage while moving. A condi cleanse would be a great way to get rid of these two conditions.
    Here's the catch: a lot of the mirage skills puts high stacks of these said conditions on you. As well, the meta mirage build is a hybrid damage dealer, meaning they not only deal great condition damage, but also great power damage. So staying still will only mean you must eat their power damage as well.
    On top of this, because most of the mirage skills apply high stacks of torment and confusion, if you condi cleanse these conditions, they can pretty much immediately re-apply these conditions on you, or they can apply it within a 2-3 second range. This also applied to 2, dodging the main burst. They have multiple main bursts. Axe 3 alone puts 7 stacks of confusion on you and maybe more. 7+. on one skill. that's a bit much. Many professions' condition clears are on lenghty cooldowns, anyways from 20 seconds to 40 seconds or more, with only a few professions having very good passive condition clears (depending on the trait line taken), clearing anything from 2-3 condis every 10 or so seconds, maybe even less. While I think this is cool for a certain spec to have a natural predator so to speak, I also think it's a little odd, considering that a specific build that is supposed to be anti-conditions will still fail after about 10-15 seconds of fighting a mirage using the meta build.

    with all of this being said, there isn't much profit. Mirages have a lot of evasion/invuln/blinds to also cover themselves if they get into tight situations, and usually having one of those in the right situations is all it takes to turn the tide of battle into your favor. Now, mirages have plenty of all of these. Which means plenty of tide turning chances in battle to help carry them to victory.

    I hope this is educational in any sort of way, and this response is not meant to be condescending in any way, more of an eye opener on some of the many advantages that exist on the mirage right now.

    It's ok. I mean - I usually play necromancer in PvP cause it's - lets be honest - faceroll profession especially in lower ranks (roll scourge and spam wells, and f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 up tos aoe skills blindly up to gold -> dont even read what they do, if you want to go higher then you need to learn to play it) I don't usually have problems against mirages.
    Dodge the strongest and most visible attack(axe 3). you know when itll come because mirage needs to spawn 2-3 clones and its animation is quite visible.
    Most of mirages burst 90% usefull dmg skills they have in 2-3 seconds and then theyre left defensless -> without dodges or real dmg for next 4-8 seconds. If you manage to dodge and cleanse first 2/3 seconds then if you have CC they're pretty much dead or trying to escape.
    There are probably much more skilled mirages, but... I honestly have more problems playing against guardian (who should never lose vs mirage), necromancer and thief and ofc those kitten rangers -> super long range, annoying pet, knockbacks, healing, damage,.. I hate them........ : P

    Fot all of people who don't do well against mirages - play them for a while and see how people defeat you. then use it against others when you're playing vs mirage.
    The biggest problem I see with people when playing against mirages is they don't seem to know their skills do and what should they dodge/cleanse and how to find real mesmer. If you know when to dodge/cleanse then it's just a skill fight.

    Yes mirages have a ot of opportunities to escape, dodge, blink etc. thats why they're basically glass cannon and their healing/blocking/cc ability is very low. Their conditions are also the "worse" ones, bcs imagine now that its bleedor burning stacks. or me e.g. thief is the same but worse. Tons of dmg, stealth, dodges, escapes and instant power dmg to that -> you can't even cleanse it. Their skills are also not that flashy so its harder to dodge in a right moment.

    For me the only real problem with mesmer (and necromancers) starts when you play in big fights e.g. vs 3 mesmers and 2 pet necromancers. You can't see a thing due to all pets and clones. It's impossible to win by skill there, you can just drop allaoes and pray.

    Anyway - I understand people might have problem playing against mirages and mesmers in general, but I dont believe it's because they're unbalanced.

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    i will say this yes you have stated some usefull stuff but if your mes is smart then you will add the confussion on you at the point you try to use a skill. now with the amount of confussion you can stack on someone with mes you can get some crazzy numbers like a min of 10k confusion hit on skill use. i can see why mes gets so hated for condi setup in pvp and wvw but also remember condi is strong at the moment and is not going to get weaker any time soon. i have also noticed that some classes done have any condi cleans for stuff like this. all i can say is if you see a condi mes try to bait him into a mess up so you can kill him but that is tricky becouse you he a mes. i am just saying it how i see it right now.

  • The conditions mirage can produce are fine. The problem isn't in the profession, but on the conditions themselves.
    What's not fine is that conditions can stack over 25 on players, and that players can get more than 100 stacks of conditions total.

    There's no need to change mirage when it comes to that, but conditions themselves:

    • Any single condition should have a stack cap of 25 when applied to a player.
    • When more than 100 stacks of conditions across all types of conditions are stacked on a player, only the 100 most powerful and recent would have an effect.

    This is the same principle that was applied to retaliation and confusions. Because of the differences between players and NPCs, their stats and their behavior, they just can't work the same for both.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 16, 2019

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Kas.3509 said:
    You just need to learn to counterplay instead of complaining. Follow 3 steps:
    1. Dont spam your skills when under confusion, just condi cleanse and dont run around with torment -> condi cleanse first
    2. Dodge the main burst
    3. Profit
    It's really not that hard. I main mirage yet in PvP it's not my favourite class.

    I honestly don't care at all about what you do with mirage in PvP/WvW as I prefer to play easier and more rewarding classes there, but please stop nerfing it in PVE already. It's not bad but far off top dmg charts. It'll always belong to guardian/ele/thief/reve anyway it seems : P

    Also - when a lot of people thinks one way doesn't mean it's right. I am sure 90% of consumers believe they should get things cheaper or free. Is it the right way for the company to listen to them?
    Answer it yourself :P.

    Anet has statistics of who wins and loses against who and in what league and that is worth a lot more than some complainers or praisers on forums - because believe me even if 1000 players complain they're still a very small % of a whole playerbase and usually player just want the profession they like to get super boosted and everything else super nerfed. That's how it is.

    Some of this I do agree with, but there are also more underlying issues that also invalidates a lot of what you present as well. I'll go over those.
    1) It is true that a lot of people continue to spam skills (especially auto attacks) when they have confusion on them, so it results in a very rapid burn of health at the cost of their ignorance (I won't say stupidity, as they might now know why they could be dying really fast). Also, when you have torment on you, yes you do want to stay still so you don't eat the full brunt of the passive damage while moving. A condi cleanse would be a great way to get rid of these two conditions.
    Here's the catch: a lot of the mirage skills puts high stacks of these said conditions on you. As well, the meta mirage build is a hybrid damage dealer, meaning they not only deal great condition damage, but also great power damage. So staying still will only mean you must eat their power damage as well.
    On top of this, because most of the mirage skills apply high stacks of torment and confusion, if you condi cleanse these conditions, they can pretty much immediately re-apply these conditions on you, or they can apply it within a 2-3 second range. This also applied to 2, dodging the main burst. They have multiple main bursts. Axe 3 alone puts 7 stacks of confusion on you and maybe more. 7+. on one skill. that's a bit much.

    It's 9 max from Axe3 assuming you have 3 clones when u activate it.
    I agree the number of stacks on condi mesmer should be addressed. Especially scepter. A block on a 4.75 CD puts 5 torment on you. That's a little ridiculous.

    with all of this being said, there isn't much profit. Mirages have a lot of evasion/invuln/blinds to also cover themselves if they get into tight situations,

    This is actually what I don't agree with.
    Mirage has two dodges. The vigor access it had was gutted.
    The defensive tools it has are essentially the same since launch.

    I think what people are having more trouble with,( or what may be pushing people to complain about mirage )is the spawning of mirage mirrors on distort.
    A problem that could be easily remedied if they shifted some of that defensive power into the active skill sand through glass

    Nerf the trait to spawn one mirror on distort.
    Put sand through glass on an ammo system, like the weaver stun break. Up the CD to 40s with 20s ammo refill.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • The other thing that you can do is to learn to play against mirages, that's how if have defeated mirages, as well as SBs, Guardians, Warriors, etc. and other times they get me and defeat me, as well as other classes, but if you expect to ALWAYS win against a mirage then good luck because there will always be better people than you that will defeat you (at least talking from a wvw perspective). Always carry some type of condi cleanser as you will find always hybrid and condi builds. Sorry the only thing I find absurd in this post is the post itself.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 17, 2019

    Funny, I seem to get most damage on opponents from direct damage. Just a couple of days ago I hit a 10k mind wrack - in half cele gear without Domination... Nevermind the ~5k axe 3 crits. That's truly absurd. Years ago I'd have to try-hard in full zerker to hit a 15k+ GS2+F1. Now it's insanely effortless to apply both kinds of damage - power and condi.

    Condis - they seem to not stick to and fall off good opponents like water off a duck's back.

    I agree things like axe ambush torment duration should be shaved, Ineptitude should be slightly modified etc, though it's also funny how overpowered cleanse and condi mitigation is when properly built for.

    Underwater on the other hand - yeah I did hold off 3 soulbeasts for a good few minutes the other day. Though had no potential to disengage during the fight and it was without ability to counterpressure properly. But those Sb's disengage and kiting is also absolutely ridiculous - I'd say easier/stronger than mirage aside from sword ambush (which should also be nerfed).

    Future nerfs should be carefully considered, not wrecking things like by slapping 6s exhaustion and calling it a day...

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • @Kas.3509 said:

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Kas.3509 said:
    You just need to learn to counterplay instead of complaining. Follow 3 steps:
    1. Dont spam your skills when under confusion, just condi cleanse and dont run around with torment -> condi cleanse first
    2. Dodge the main burst
    3. Profit
    It's really not that hard. I main mirage yet in PvP it's not my favourite class.

    I honestly don't care at all about what you do with mirage in PvP/WvW as I prefer to play easier and more rewarding classes there, but please stop nerfing it in PVE already. It's not bad but far off top dmg charts. It'll always belong to guardian/ele/thief/reve anyway it seems : P

    Also - when a lot of people thinks one way doesn't mean it's right. I am sure 90% of consumers believe they should get things cheaper or free. Is it the right way for the company to listen to them?
    Answer it yourself :P.

    Anet has statistics of who wins and loses against who and in what league and that is worth a lot more than some complainers or praisers on forums - because believe me even if 1000 players complain they're still a very small % of a whole playerbase and usually player just want the profession they like to get super boosted and everything else super nerfed. That's how it is.

    Some of this I do agree with, but there are also more underlying issues that also invalidates a lot of what you present as well. I'll go over those.
    1) It is true that a lot of people continue to spam skills (especially auto attacks) when they have confusion on them, so it results in a very rapid burn of health at the cost of their ignorance (I won't say stupidity, as they might now know why they could be dying really fast). Also, when you have torment on you, yes you do want to stay still so you don't eat the full brunt of the passive damage while moving. A condi cleanse would be a great way to get rid of these two conditions.
    Here's the catch: a lot of the mirage skills puts high stacks of these said conditions on you. As well, the meta mirage build is a hybrid damage dealer, meaning they not only deal great condition damage, but also great power damage. So staying still will only mean you must eat their power damage as well.
    On top of this, because most of the mirage skills apply high stacks of torment and confusion, if you condi cleanse these conditions, they can pretty much immediately re-apply these conditions on you, or they can apply it within a 2-3 second range. This also applied to 2, dodging the main burst. They have multiple main bursts. Axe 3 alone puts 7 stacks of confusion on you and maybe more. 7+. on one skill. that's a bit much. Many professions' condition clears are on lenghty cooldowns, anyways from 20 seconds to 40 seconds or more, with only a few professions having very good passive condition clears (depending on the trait line taken), clearing anything from 2-3 condis every 10 or so seconds, maybe even less. While I think this is cool for a certain spec to have a natural predator so to speak, I also think it's a little odd, considering that a specific build that is supposed to be anti-conditions will still fail after about 10-15 seconds of fighting a mirage using the meta build.

    with all of this being said, there isn't much profit. Mirages have a lot of evasion/invuln/blinds to also cover themselves if they get into tight situations, and usually having one of those in the right situations is all it takes to turn the tide of battle into your favor. Now, mirages have plenty of all of these. Which means plenty of tide turning chances in battle to help carry them to victory.

    I hope this is educational in any sort of way, and this response is not meant to be condescending in any way, more of an eye opener on some of the many advantages that exist on the mirage right now.

    It's ok. I mean - I usually play necromancer in PvP cause it's - lets be honest - faceroll profession especially in lower ranks (roll scourge and spam wells, and f1 f2 f3 f4 f5 up tos aoe skills blindly up to gold -> dont even read what they do, if you want to go higher then you need to learn to play it) I don't usually have problems against mirages.
    Dodge the strongest and most visible attack(axe 3). you know when itll come because mirage needs to spawn 2-3 clones and its animation is quite visible.
    Most of mirages burst 90% usefull dmg skills they have in 2-3 seconds and then theyre left defensless -> without dodges or real dmg for next 4-8 seconds. If you manage to dodge and cleanse first 2/3 seconds then if you have CC they're pretty much dead or trying to escape.
    There are probably much more skilled mirages, but... I honestly have more problems playing against guardian (who should never lose vs mirage), necromancer and thief and ofc those kitten rangers -> super long range, annoying pet, knockbacks, healing, damage,.. I hate them........ : P

    Fot all of people who don't do well against mirages - play them for a while and see how people defeat you. then use it against others when you're playing vs mirage.
    The biggest problem I see with people when playing against mirages is they don't seem to know their skills do and what should they dodge/cleanse and how to find real mesmer. If you know when to dodge/cleanse then it's just a skill fight.

    Yes mirages have a ot of opportunities to escape, dodge, blink etc. thats why they're basically glass cannon and their healing/blocking/cc ability is very low. Their conditions are also the "worse" ones, bcs imagine now that its bleedor burning stacks. or me e.g. thief is the same but worse. Tons of dmg, stealth, dodges, escapes and instant power dmg to that -> you can't even cleanse it. Their skills are also not that flashy so its harder to dodge in a right moment.

    For me the only real problem with mesmer (and necromancers) starts when you play in big fights e.g. vs 3 mesmers and 2 pet necromancers. You can't see a thing due to all pets and clones. It's impossible to win by skill there, you can just drop allaoes and pray.

    Anyway - I understand people might have problem playing against mirages and mesmers in general, but I dont believe it's because they're unbalanced.

    I really liked this post :)

  • The thing with Mirage is that, even with no practice at all, you still can roll on any players that don't know the spec' very well, and danse around them while they are trying to hit the good one, and sure some will complain.
    You HAVE, to learn how it works in depth if you don't want to be "kitten" every time you encounter a mirage, even if you are far more experienced with Your, class, let alone an experienced Mirage, they will troll you all along the fight.

    The only issue I can see there is that you can easily take down or disengage from a much skilled player than you as a Mirage, even if you just started playing it.( Scourge is a bit alike except you have to learn about placements and be aware that you don't have so much mobility, and literally a bag for ranged dps like bow boonbeasts )
    But once you've learned about how it works, things are much easier, and you will see that there are a LOT, of bad Mirages with no clue spamming skills for the sake of it.

    .... Still, I'm pretty sure a high skilled mirage has an advantage vs anything else played by an high skilled player, maybe some bunker build, for an endless fight.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Only Even.6193 said:
    The thing with Mirage is that, even with no practice at all, you still can roll on any players that don't know the spec' very well, and danse around them while they are trying to hit the good one, and sure some will complain.

    That's how it is with every class though. Remember when Holo was introduced and people couldn't figure out that you need to dodge holo CC. Or when people couldn't figure out how to dodge DJ. Even with it being the most telegraphed skill in the game. New people will complain about anything they don't understand and people that want to have the game balanced around there low skill level are just as bad.
    This is not the game where you will get far being willfully ignorant about classes/specs and their capabilities.

    The only issue I can see there is that you can easily take down or disengage from a much skilled player than you as a Mirage, even if you just started playing it.( Scourge is a bit alike except you have to learn about placements and be aware that you don't have so much mobility, and literally a bag for ranged dps like bow boonbeasts )

    They would find it easy to do on multiple classes and multiple specs. I don't see disengagement as an issue in the grand scheme of things. Unless you chase someone. Then that mistake is completely on the user.

    .... Still, I'm pretty sure a high skilled mirage has an advantage vs anything else played by an high skilled player, maybe some bunker build, for an endless fight.

    >

    I disagree. As mirage has plenty of counters, if it was as dominant as you believe. It would be present in mass in the top brackets of PvP. It currently isn't.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • I agree with your points, but it's difficult to evaluate a class performances based on spvp ranking, only, since you can't control Matchmakings and see their real value as a duelist.

    But I'm mostly pointing out that the Mirage doesn't need any skill/effort to be at least, decent, and in every, game mode, it's about 5 minutes of reading and you'r set. I'm maining Mirage (Sage) in spvp and trailblazer in wvw solo roaming, I only have trouble vs VERY high condi cleanses builds, and not everyone has a condi cleanse factory on their back. I don't know why most people talk about Waiting for Condi Burst.. when a condi mirage doesn't need to burst (pretty bad idea 1v1 wise), sustained condi application is enough, you can rotate all day long between condis, breaking target, porting, dodging, stealth, the cooldowns are low.. Also, condi is not the sole source of damage.

    Don't use bad Mesmer behavior as an exemple when you want to explain how to counter it, or defend the spec, it misleads people and they will ask for nerf right after failing again.
    Reading is enough to counter it.

    Anyway... I still think that Mirage need a REAL, balance rework, not a nerf, geez Mirage took so much random nerfs that I'm scared that they will destroy the entire spec if they touch it again.

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @Only Even.6193 said:
    I agree with your points, but it's difficult to evaluate a class performances based on spvp ranking, only, since you can't control Matchmakings and see their real value as a duelist.

    But I'm mostly pointing out that the Mirage doesn't need any skill/effort to be at least, decent, and in every, game mode, it's about 5 minutes of reading and you'r set. I'm maining Mirage (Sage) in spvp and trailblazer in wvw solo roaming, I only have trouble vs VERY high condi cleanses builds, and not everyone has a condi cleanse factory on their back. I don't know why most people talk about Waiting for Condi Burst.. when a condi mirage doesn't need to burst (pretty bad idea 1v1 wise), sustained condi application is enough, you can rotate all day long between condis, breaking target, porting, dodging, stealth, the cooldowns are low.. Also, condi is not the sole source of damage.

    Don't use bad Mesmer behavior as an exemple when you want to explain how to counter it, or defend the spec, it misleads people and they will ask for nerf right after failing again.
    Reading is enough to counter it.

    Anyway... I still think that Mirage need a REAL, balance rework, not a nerf, geez Mirage took so much random nerfs that I'm scared that they will destroy the entire spec if they touch it again.

    You make a lot of good points. Isn't mes a bit brocken though if you can have 3 clones and 4 phantasoms out all at the same time in a fight? I mean back in the day you could only have a total of 3 illusions at a time out but now the math is you can have 7 illusions out and for some reson you think this is balanced??? I am so lost were you think the devs should go then.

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belishine.7493 said:

    @Only Even.6193 said:
    I agree with your points, but it's difficult to evaluate a class performances based on spvp ranking, only, since you can't control Matchmakings and see their real value as a duelist.

    But I'm mostly pointing out that the Mirage doesn't need any skill/effort to be at least, decent, and in every, game mode, it's about 5 minutes of reading and you'r set. I'm maining Mirage (Sage) in spvp and trailblazer in wvw solo roaming, I only have trouble vs VERY high condi cleanses builds, and not everyone has a condi cleanse factory on their back. I don't know why most people talk about Waiting for Condi Burst.. when a condi mirage doesn't need to burst (pretty bad idea 1v1 wise), sustained condi application is enough, you can rotate all day long between condis, breaking target, porting, dodging, stealth, the cooldowns are low.. Also, condi is not the sole source of damage.

    Don't use bad Mesmer behavior as an exemple when you want to explain how to counter it, or defend the spec, it misleads people and they will ask for nerf right after failing again.
    Reading is enough to counter it.

    Anyway... I still think that Mirage need a REAL, balance rework, not a nerf, geez Mirage took so much random nerfs that I'm scared that they will destroy the entire spec if they touch it again.

    You make a lot of good points. Isn't mes a bit brocken though if you can have 3 clones and 4 phantasoms out all at the same time in a fight? I mean back in the day you could only have a total of 3 illusions at a time out but now the math is you can have 7 illusions out and for some reson you think this is balanced??? I am so lost were you think the devs should go then.

    That's misleading, the phantasms last maybe... 1 to 5 seconds? And they're very obviously not the Mesmer so I don't know what the problem is here.

  • I don't think Mirage is " balanced ", tho' pvp wise, it's definitely not the worst atm, but Mirage's balance became fragile now, successives nerfs will just destroy it for good.

    Imo the actual state of Condition Damages doesn't bring justice to the Mirage, unlike Power that needs Precision and ferocity to be efficient, Condi doesn't need anything else, so more room for creativity and survivability, you can add Vitality, thougness, Healing, everything you want, the damages will remain the same.
    And since it has a lot of damage mitigation skills/passives, wich again, does'nt sacrifice any damages, you can be as tanky as you please.
    Hek, Condi Mirage can easily kill most of the legendary bounties solo, but well, since it's pve I guess it's okay...
    It's basically the class that profit the most out of the actual condi system, and I don't think nerfing Mirage is an healthy solution.
    They already tried to balance Condis but the changes where abysmal, at least for Mirages and Scourges.

    Sometimes the problems are not the Classes themselves, but the mechanics they do use, like Scourge's Abrasive Grits that got nerfed (added internal cooldown) to implement the remade Sanctuary Rune (Thanksfully they reverted the nerf).

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    That's misleading, the phantasms last maybe... 1 to 5 seconds? And they're very obviously not the Mesmer so I don't know what the problem is here.

    ya but look at the damage you do with all of that out at the same time so you get 4 phantoms and you shater the 3 clones you end up doing 30+k with no skill lets say they dodge and get hit by all phantoms you just did a min of 10k now still no skill were is the this is ok but hell to the know if a thief were to do that to you?your state of mind for mes a flawed for sure i know mine is a little flawed as well but right now this is a fact that mes is just flat brocken right now and needs fixed fast.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    Condition*

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Belishine.7493 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    That's misleading, the phantasms last maybe... 1 to 5 seconds? And they're very obviously not the Mesmer so I don't know what the problem is here.

    ya but look at the damage you do with all of that out at the same time so you get 4 phantoms and you shater the 3 clones you end up doing 30+k with no skill lets say they dodge and get hit by all phantoms you just did a min of 10k now still no skill were is the this is ok but hell to the know if a thief were to do that to you?your state of mind for mes a flawed for sure i know mine is a little flawed as well but right now this is a fact that mes is just flat brocken right now and needs fixed fast.

    The only flawed state of mind here is yours. The phantasm spam build has been dead for months.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2019

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Kas.3509 said:
    You just need to learn to counterplay instead of complaining. Follow 3 steps:
    1. Dont spam your skills when under confusion, just condi cleanse and dont run around with torment -> condi cleanse first
    2. Dodge the main burst
    3. Profit
    It's really not that hard. I main mirage yet in PvP it's not my favourite class.

    I honestly don't care at all about what you do with mirage in PvP/WvW as I prefer to play easier and more rewarding classes there, but please stop nerfing it in PVE already. It's not bad but far off top dmg charts. It'll always belong to guardian/ele/thief/reve anyway it seems : P

    Also - when a lot of people thinks one way doesn't mean it's right. I am sure 90% of consumers believe they should get things cheaper or free. Is it the right way for the company to listen to them?
    Answer it yourself :P.

    Anet has statistics of who wins and loses against who and in what league and that is worth a lot more than some complainers or praisers on forums - because believe me even if 1000 players complain they're still a very small % of a whole playerbase and usually player just want the profession they like to get super boosted and everything else super nerfed. That's how it is.

    Some of this I do agree with, but there are also more underlying issues that also invalidates a lot of what you present as well. I'll go over those.
    1) It is true that a lot of people continue to spam skills (especially auto attacks) when they have confusion on them, so it results in a very rapid burn of health at the cost of their ignorance (I won't say stupidity, as they might now know why they could be dying really fast). Also, when you have torment on you, yes you do want to stay still so you don't eat the full brunt of the passive damage while moving. A condi cleanse would be a great way to get rid of these two conditions.
    Here's the catch: a lot of the mirage skills puts high stacks of these said conditions on you. As well, the meta mirage build is a hybrid damage dealer, meaning they not only deal great condition damage, but also great power damage. So staying still will only mean you must eat their power damage as well.
    On top of this, because most of the mirage skills apply high stacks of torment and confusion, if you condi cleanse these conditions, they can pretty much immediately re-apply these conditions on you, or they can apply it within a 2-3 second range. This also applied to 2, dodging the main burst. They have multiple main bursts. Axe 3 alone puts 7 stacks of confusion on you and maybe more. 7+. on one skill. that's a bit much. Many professions' condition clears are on lenghty cooldowns, anyways from 20 seconds to 40 seconds or more, with only a few professions having very good passive condition clears (depending on the trait line taken), clearing anything from 2-3 condis every 10 or so seconds, maybe even less. While I think this is cool for a certain spec to have a natural predator so to speak, I also think it's a little odd, considering that a specific build that is supposed to be anti-conditions will still fail after about 10-15 seconds of fighting a mirage using the meta build.

    with all of this being said, there isn't much profit. Mirages have a lot of evasion/invuln/blinds to also cover themselves if they get into tight situations, and usually having one of those in the right situations is all it takes to turn the tide of battle into your favor. Now, mirages have plenty of all of these. Which means plenty of tide turning chances in battle to help carry them to victory.

    I hope this is educational in any sort of way, and this response is not meant to be condescending in any way, more of an eye opener on some of the many advantages that exist on the mirage right now.

    There are so many logical fallacies in this i hardly know where to begin. According to you they appear to deal both "great", full, condi damage + power, so they are effectively dealing double damage of everyone else amirite, just like all meters prove!

    Second, yea totally man it takes 2-3 to apply everything again.. suuure, if you unleash all the burst at the same time over a 5-6 second window its gonna be maybe 20seconds before you can do similar again, even up to 1-1½min for the burst abilties to fully recharge, most skills are around a 9-12 sec cooldown and you can't just get all that up in 2-3 seconds. You can get some up, but what you are saying indicates ones who doesn't know what exactly happens in combat and is overwhelmed and just think it's everything every moment.

    You are also exaggerating numbers(even factually making false statements), neglecting that conditions need be met for max stacks etc making it look like we just walk over press the key and everything is unloaded.

    Not to mention that to do good damage we are going to use up dodges and blinks(defensive abilties), and just pray it'll do the trick or its time to flee before you get wrecked.

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    i do know what i am talking about becouse i did main the mes for 2 almost 3 solid years so.... yes i can see this stuff being used after i state it out. but my numbers might have been a little high but yes that was my damage numbers like 5 to 6 months ago and i was steam rolling lots of players with little skill and hardly any efert at all. none the less my point is still very strong and valid. but you never did answer my question of were the devs can go for mes becosue they in a cornor were the mes needs to get balanced but also were if they nerf they will loss more of the mes players?

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Funny thing.

    The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they nearly won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

    Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

    But yeah.

    Condi mirage is absurd.

    You can't base any arguments around a single encounter. Those mirages must have been absolutely terrible. There is absolutely 0 reason they should have lost that fight, espec as boonbeast is a fairly weak spec in WvW. The two of you clearly played much better (how good/bad I obviously can't comment on), otherwise the three condi mirages should win that 100/100 times.

    That you cant kill a full minstrel druid doesn't really say much, it's about as good as it gets for personal survivability...

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Funny thing.

    The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they nearly won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

    Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

    But yeah.

    Condi mirage is absurd.

    You can't base any arguments around a single encounter.

    That's like 80% of the QQ post on the forums though. . .

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Funny thing.

    The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they nearly won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

    Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

    But yeah.

    Condi mirage is absurd.

    You can't base any arguments around a single encounter.

    That's like 80% of the QQ post on the forums though. . .

    That's true

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Funny thing.

    The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they nearly won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

    Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

    But yeah.

    Condi mirage is absurd.

    You can't base any arguments around a single encounter.

    That's like 80% of the QQ post on the forums though. . .

    That's true

    Which is exactly the point. Everything is anecdotal, we dont know how good anyone is or what builds they use (sometimes they seem hesistant to disclose class as well). Yet people always take "buh miraje ÖP" for face value. In my experience, more often than not people brought a spork to a knife fight. Yeah you zerg and you can roam on it, but you wont beat a real player killer.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Funny thing.

    The other day we had a tough fight in WvW. Hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs 3 condi mirages. The condi mirages lost the fight, all 3 died. It lasted quite a while and they nearly won at one point with the help of a buffed supervisor (they capped the camp we where fighting over).

    Shortly after that, the same hybrid power mirage and power boonbeast vs a minstrel druid bunker and vanilla sustain warrior. After a long fight, the warrior finally got stomped, the druid literally ressed him while in combat - I have no idea how - the warrior then got killed again and we got 100% focus on the druid. He did not go down. We chased and fought. He was impossible to kill, stealthed all the time and healed up. Gave up after a minute when he finally outran us.

    But yeah.

    Condi mirage is absurd.

    You can't base any arguments around a single encounter.

    That's like 80% of the QQ post on the forums though. . .

    That's true

    Which is exactly the point. Everything is anecdotal, we dont know how good anyone is or what builds they use (sometimes they seem hesistant to disclose class as well). Yet people always take "buh miraje ÖP" for face value. In my experience, more often than not people brought a spork to a knife fight. Yeah you zerg and you can roam on it, but you wont beat a real player killer.

    I don't take OP at face value, judging from his post he seems quite new, but what I can say is that in my experience condi mirage is definitively the most powerful class for roaming, followed closely by DE, SB and DD.

    I say this while condi mirage is a class I quite often play while roaming. Condi mirage is the only top tier roamer that as far as I know only has good matchups, I have yet to find any matchups that didn't feel heavily favored.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • I can not understand if Anet want to weaken pvp mirage build, why along with this, weaken pve too! :(

    There is a mechanism of separate nerf! Why cut everything!?

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