Living World Episode 6 Location theory - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Living World Episode 6 Location theory

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  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm hopeful, perhaps foolishly, that the fact we're going straight into the next season will mean they don't feel compelled to end on a cliffhanger again. S1, for all its flaws, did do a semi-decent job of combining closure and one hell of a loose end, and I'd like to see them take a page out of that book.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I suspect one of two things will happen, if they don't want to cheapen Aurene's death by bringing her back at the last moment.

    Bringing Aurene back at the last moment would only cheapen her death if they didn't spend the time that they have building up for a possible revival. As for your two points
    1. The Pale Tree just taking over Mordremoth's position would be the worst 11th hour Deus Ex Machina they could pull. They haven't done anything to build up to that with any sort of suggestions that's shes been absorbing Mordrmeoth's magic since the dragon died, or anything else to suggest that process is happening. Having it JUST happen right now with no build up would feel like an obvious scapegoat to the current problem.
    2. Putting Kralkatorrik back to sleep isn't a solution to the problem, its a delay. Its a literal chekhov's gun to suggest he will wake up again. Might as well make the silly claim that Jormag's story is done because we put him back to sleep.

    Season 5 being a continuation of the Kralkatorrik plot makes no sense to me. For two reasons. First, why split the seasons. Second, why kill Joko - a figure loved by veterans and is far more entertaining than an personality-less Elder Dragon, so fast if we're going to spend three times as much time on Kralkatorrik (I am assuming Season 5 will be 6 episodes too). And thirdly, if Kralkatorrik isn't the focus of the majority/whole of Season 5, why not extend Season 4 to be 8, or 10, or whatever episodes long?

    1. You would split the seasons because Season 4 was about Aurene reaching the level of power/readiness to be able to actually do what she needs to do. Kralkatorrik would just be the background motivator for that. Much like how Path of Fire was about Balthazar, with Kralkatorrik serving as a background motivator for his actions.(in so far as Kralk was Balth's target)
    2. Same reason they killed Lazarus like they did, because it doesn't make sense for Joko to become more then what he was. Joko wasn't really that interesting. He showed up for one act, in the 5 act Nightfall, and really only served to give us the mcguffin to let us cross the sulfurous wastes, and then proceeded to do basically nothing for the rest of the game. The only reason he got anywhere is because Varesh had already weakened Elona greatly, and we didn't do anything to throw him back in his box, and everyone else in Elona pulled the idiot ball and decided to just leave him alone and let him win. Even in Guild wars 2 he severed basically no real purpose besides as a plot device for us to have an army to steal to fight the Forged and Kralk's minions for the final battle of Path of Fire, while the man himself was JUST a one off mission character much like he was in Guild Wars 1. Joko, much like Lazarus, was only "hyped" up as much as he was because fans spent the years between Nightfall and Guild Wars 2 making up increasingly complex, convoluted, and implausible fan theories, when none of them would have ever happened because they make no sense, not only on the basic principles of good writing, but within universe either.

    Unless the expansion team is working on Season 5 and the LW team moved on to the project after that instead, I don't think they began work on Season 5 until around when A Star to Guide Us was launched.

    If the expansion team is working on LWS5, and the LW team is working on the project after that, that would mean the LW team would be working on the expansion, making them the expansion team and the "expansion" team in this case the LW team. None of what you said makes sense.

    Not only would that cheapen her death, but I would argue Kralkatorrik has indeed been "the focus" of Season 4. Though we took a two-episode detour for Joko (instead of making him the proper focus as he should have been), Episode 1 began with Kralk, and we went full on into it with Episode 4.

    Besides, if Aurene comes back so soon, and we don't kill Kralkatorrik in Episode 6, then Season 5 will also be about "getting Aurene to the point she could kill Kralkatorrik, and replace him". Because killing Kralkatorrik is part of getting her to the point of being able to replace him.

    Again, her death would only be cheapened had they not set up for her to come back already. And no, Kralkatorrik was a large background motivator for Season 4, but season4 was ultimately about Aurene, Aurene growing after eating Balthazar's magic, her sudden rise in "violent" actions, her taking Joko's magic, her visions of death, her doing Glint's trials to become "ready". Kralkatorrik is just the larger reason why we are doing these things, but the season itself has been about her.

    And no, Aurene killing Kralk and replacing him is part of her killing him and replacing him. It has nothing to do with her reaching a biological state where she could even do that in the first place. Its like saying getting ready for work by putting on your mandated uniform is the same as actually doing the job.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Joko, much like Lazarus, was only "hyped" up as much as he was because fans spent the years between Nightfall and Guild Wars 2 making up increasingly complex, convoluted, and implausible fan theories, when none of them would have ever happened because they make no sense, not only on the basic principles of good writing, but within universe either.

    What theories would those be? Besides for some errant speculation about how he might have become a lich, the only hype I've seen for Joko was that he was a villain with a personality who, according to the Movement of the World, was in a very powerful position.

    And to be fair, the fact that we were told that he either usurped or crushed the position of practically every other prominent character we'd met over the course of an entire campaign did seem to have him ideally positioned to be a much bigger deal this second time around. They didn't end up doing much with it, narratively speaking, but they'd put in the legwork to the point that they easily could've had they wanted to.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    2. After the massive failure of last mission, the probability of us killing Kralkatorrik in the next mission is basically zero
    3. This means Kralkatorrik will survive into Season 5

    I rather doubt this, personally. At least, if you intend for "will survive" to mean "is still functionally active".

    I suspect one of two things will happen, if they don't want to cheapen Aurene's death by bringing her back at the last moment.

    1. We'll find out that the Pale Tree has or is about to replace Mordremoth now that Primordus was put to sleep and her injuries healed in Season 3 (or, more specifically, take in the domains of plant and shadow that Primordus seemed to take in the most of). This gives us a buffer, and allows us to kill Kralkatorrik, which we'd do so using some plan we come up with along the way.
    2. More likely, we'll find a way to take the very weak Kralkatorrik and put it to sleep. It isn't the wanted ideal (we'd have opposition from folks like Almorra if she survived that third platform blast), but it'll be what's done.

    This would put an end to the Kralkatorrik plot, and allow us to finally go into something new.

    Season 5 being a continuation of the Kralkatorrik plot makes no sense to me. For two reasons. First, why split the seasons. Second, why kill Joko - a figure loved by veterans and is far more entertaining than an personality-less Elder Dragon, so fast if we're going to spend three times as much time on Kralkatorrik (I am assuming Season 5 will be 6 episodes too). And thirdly, if Kralkatorrik isn't the focus of the majority/whole of Season 5, why not extend Season 4 to be 8, or 10, or whatever episodes long?

    That makes even less sense given that they would still have their teams working on S5 map locations, which means we would see those changes on the map long before we see the next expansion map updates.

    Unless the expansion team is working on Season 5 and the LW team moved on to the project after that instead, I don't think they began work on Season 5 until around when A Star to Guide Us was launched.

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Because Season 4 was ultimately not about killing Kralkatorrik, but rather, about getting Aurene to the point she could kill Kralkatorrik, and replace him.

    The last episode of season 4 will likely have Aurene show back up alive at the very end as the season cliffhanger ending.

    Not only would that cheapen her death, but I would argue Kralkatorrik has indeed been "the focus" of Season 4. Though we took a two-episode detour for Joko (instead of making him the proper focus as he should have been), Episode 1 began with Kralk, and we went full on into it with Episode 4.

    Besides, if Aurene comes back so soon, and we don't kill Kralkatorrik in Episode 6, then Season 5 will also be about "getting Aurene to the point she could kill Kralkatorrik, and replace him". Because killing Kralkatorrik is part of getting her to the point of being able to replace him.

    Who does it cheapen her death for? It cheapens the death for YOU and it might for other people, but it isn't some set in stone universal notion that it cheapens her death or this latest episode. It doesn't just immediately devalue the experience for everyone.

    To me, it would cheapen our entire experience with her to have her not resurrect. It would cheapen the weight of this whole prophecy and our involvement in it, the bond that we formed with her, and it would cheapen Joko's death as well as Ogden's mention of his death being part of the prophecy if his death and her consumption of his magic doesn't play a part in her resurrection. I get that people won't to nitpick every little detail about the technicalities of his lichdom, but again.. we don't know how he became a lich to begin with or when he obtained that magic. We don't know what his FIRST death was like. Perhaps it's the exact same experience that Aurene is going through now. I actually really liked Joko in this game, and to have his death play no part in Aurene's prophecy as stated per Ogden and have some significant impact on her resurrection would just further instill that his existence was merely fan-service and something that Arenanet wanted to include because we were going to Elona. If THAT were the case, I'm sure there were a dozen other ways to handle his departure or defocus from the story. There would be so much more value to me in the grand sum of the story so far to have it playout like this.

    Your other alternatives? This entire time all we needed to do was wait for the pale tree to heal so she could take on the role of elder dragon and then we're just free to kill Kralk with no consequences? Didn't you mention many many threads ago that it wouldn't matter anyway because Aurene and Vlast were meant to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth and it didn't matter that Aurene only replaced Kralk because we still needed to fill those roles as per the vision in the Elon Riverlands exalted city? But now all of a sudden it's all about just replacing one elder dragon so we keep it at an even 3? How would the pale tree suddenly being shoved into the role of elder dragon making Aurene's existence practically pointless not cheapen the story? And why would Aurene's death be a necessary part of this? Because she telepathically shared some secret with Caithe and Caithe passes it onto the Pale Tree and suddenly everything's fine?

    And now that Kralk is injured and has the ability to go back to sleep, how exactly would we force him to go back to sleep? He's an injured animal and animals are most dangerous when they're cornered and injured. He's in survival mode now, and we had a taste of that when he blasted us with three elder dragon orbs worth of magic and Balthazar's. What's going to stop him from recuperating in some part of the mists where he can just gobble up some more cosmic dimensional juju?

    To each their own, but I just don't see this story ending any better way or paying off where've been anymore than Aurene's Joko magic giving her the ability to come back. Even if it's after we finish Kralk off knowing it's the right thing to do even if it means possibly destroying Tyria - to save the mists and everything else threatened by him. We honor a fan favorite character whose entire existence and reign of terror would have been part of a grand prophecy that we got to be a part of and see to completion. We as player characters get to be a part of this years long story that ironically involves nourishing and fostering an elder dragon in direct contrast to when the game was released and we killed Zhaitan. Aurene McGuffin or whatever you've decided she is during the progress of this story, could cease to be our little pet dragon and ascend to be her own entity separate from our adventures that doesn't fix our problems for us. And why couldn't we have both anyway? Aurene replacing Kralk and the Pale Tree replacing Mordremoth? I really don't see how it would benefit the story to suddenly decide to focus yet again on the pale tree, Sylvari, spawn of Mordremoth or how it would be any different from having the pale tree be an elder dragon - the leader essentially of a playable race's city - a being that in the original game gave us visions that guided us throughout our struggle with Zhaitan... to Aurene… a dragon that can ascend and live her own non-meddling elder dragon existence in her own little part of the world where she isn't immediately accessible to humans, norn, charr, asura, and sylvari. At that point, wouldn't Sylvari just be able to ask "mommy elder dragon" for a power boost anytime they needed a little extra help? It just feels like it would create a huge imbalance among the races and almost cheapen Heart of Thorns to suddenly be in such direct lineage with an elder dragon... even if this new elder dragon is the cool easy-going boss you've always wanted and lets you have "free will."

    I mean just think about it, how would that be ANY different than the role Aurene has played this entire time? Except now instead of the commander receiving visions from Aurene - which could stop when she becomes an elder dragon as the bond is no longer necessary - we have an entire race of people that's in direct contact with an elder dragon?

    I really don't get how people aren't seeing there is only one truly logical way out of this mess or the overall benefit.

    To counter my own argument here, Aurene coming back in this way and becoming an elder dragon would make future elder dragon plots potentially more challenging, but it would be far easier and probably more cohesive to develop entirely new storylines around those elder dragons than it would be to find some brand new solution to the one we currently have. - Whether that be putting him back to sleep somehow... making this entire season and work up dismally bleak.. or McGuffin, as you love to say, make the pale tree this easy fix bandaid solution that is tossed in to progress the story. (Which again, does nothing to pay tribute to Aurene or the time we've spent with her.)

    Sometimes the simpler solution is the right one, and there's plenty of beauty in this simpler solution whether you want to discredit it for the sake of one MOMENT in ONE EPISODE or not. It's there, but you have to look at it in a completely different light. It just feels like you're trying to overcomplicate this story when it doesn't need to be and if a different path is chosen than this one I have far more fear for the future of this story than I ever did with Aurene - attachment and emotional bias aside.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    There's simply too much evidence for Aurene's resurrection at this point
    1. Dragons can consume each other's magic, and in the process gain the abilities of that magic
    2. This is also true of dragons eating powerful non-Dragon beings like Balthazar, and likely Joko
    3. Joko's death was a necessary step in the prophecy regarding beating Kralkatorrik, suggesting it has additional meaning
    4. Right before the final battle, we see several awakened sylvari, which prove that Joko's lich magic can bypass the protections/corruptions provided by draconic magic

    There's also several other possible hints such as
    1. Aurene's body not being glassed like Glint's was, allowing for it to possibly be repaired.
    2. The fact that Aurene seemingly saw her own death when not even Glint could see her own. Some may consider this inconsistent with the fact that Kralkatorrik saw a world without him, but its never stated he saw HOW he died, only that it was possible for there to be a world without him. Those are two very different things.
    3. Basic logic dictates that you don't make a whole new model for Caithe only for its importance to be thrown away 5 minutes later when the being she's now connected with seemingly dies.
    4. Likewise, basic logic dictates you don't spend this long building up Aurene only to kill her off in a penultimate episode of a season thus making everything pointless.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    One possibility I was brainstorming earlier that I like significantly less than the joko theory is that Caithe could just be somekind of empowered vessel that's meant to house Kralk's magic long enough to transport it to Aurene in the mists. I don't like this theory and it makes far less sense than Aurene just coming back to life and taking it herself, but it would at least make more sense than Caithe or the Pale tree taking his magic somehow or us just giving up and magically finding someway to put Kralk back to sleep or spending another season chasing him or some alternative method of killing him and controlling the magic release. I would hope though, if they did this, that we would get an exalted portal stone or sun's refuge style hub to go back and visit her once she becomes this elder dragon in the mists so that we can visit her. And that this instance hub would be a really beautiful and well thought out special area. Who knows, she could wind up taking roost in the very area of the mists where we first entered Kormir's Library and it could even serve to be a starting hub for some future expansion or something. (Still prefer the fantasy of her just reviving, taking kralk's magic, and residing in Kralk's old resting grounds with hopefully some Auric Basin meets Bitterfrost Frontier big tree forest meets Guild Wars 1 version of that area - enchanted glade zone that we can replay and revisit but keeps to its own timeline.

    Highlighted in bold the thread-specific part in case you don't feel like reading the rest of my rant.

    To help explain my vision of this:

    We have a Dragon Stand/Mount Maelstrom style zone with Kralkatorik's resting spot being the Deidre's Steps/Mordremoth's floating platform area where we fight and kill Kralk in the story - this now dark branded jagged pit of a lair - we kill Kralk, and then Aurene takes his place - and upon taking her crown as new elder dragon this lair phases into this beautiful enchanted glade filled with crystals and crystal flowers similar to Caithe's branding plus the aforementioned assets. Then after we complete the story we could have the outside area be the playable map and meta and then the lair/glade area become like a Sun's Refuge player hub where we can visit Aurene. It keeps her off in her own little part of the world but could also if needed at some point down the line service as a starting off point for a future story direction. Could even tie into festival of the four winds at some point with Zephyrites making a pilgrimage there and new activities. I guess I just choose to see the better side of this story direction than so many other people that just want to watch the world and my little baby dragon burn for the sake of "bold story writing" or constant needless sacrifices for the sake of blowing up the already reality-ending stakes even more. Just SO sick of the doom and gloom and constant sacrifice, and purple crystals, and sand, and bad lightning ground. I don't expect rainbows and unicorns, but I personally feel like this would be a very fitting end to a very long journey that at least momentarily gives this sense of grand reward and reprieve... gives this chance to branch out to something completely new and have it flow organically instead of feeling like we're stuck in this futile chess game with two demented forces that don't even care about winning but only aim to stretch the game out as long as possible.

    Then we can go deal with giant Cthulu-esque tentacle mystery dragon and Xenophobic societies and urban slums... and civil war between vampire-esque Lord of the Rings elf looking Kurzicks in spooky thick forests with decrepit goth cathedrals and tribal Luxons… and all of the beauty and darkness that can come with that and be a part of its own separate story arch instead of this long exhausting continuous string of immediately intertwined end-of-reality scenarios that always wind up with sacrifice this-sacrifice that resolution. Or, now that we've had a happy conclusive ending we can branch off to finding out more about Lyssa or the gods and dealing with some other entity that's arisen due to Kralk's mist-meddling that takes us to completely new areas/cultures that aren't in the previous games and have no relation to Elder Dragons. There's so much potential and as much as I enjoy the elder dragon plot and would love to find out more about the deep sea dragon, having this happy resolution with Aurene would be a great way to temporarily halt the elder dragon centric plot for awhile and really branch out. I feel like the writers really want to go crazy, and Jahai Bluffs, this mists enhanced Kralk, the weird trippy fungal area, time-space rifts... it feels like they're really itching to do something out of the box. And what better way to get to that point than to fulfill Aurene's destiny and let her be the solution she was written to be for the last few years?

    I'm sorry, I tried bolding this like 10 times and it never worked, and then I changed it to header to attempt to make it slightly larger and it's just been a hot kitten mess. If a mod sees this and feels inclined, I was really just trying to make the header portion bold...

  • @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Who does it cheapen her death for? It cheapens the death for YOU and it might for other people, but it isn't some set in stone universal notion that it cheapens her death or this latest episode. It doesn't just immediately devalue the experience for everyone.

    I would argue that an immediate resurrection after a dramatic death does cheapen the death, universally. It'd be like a jump scare at that point. An ultimately irrelevant act that was done only to get a quick response from the community.

    Granted this one is made less so by the 2-3 month wait, but ultimately it would feel the same, especially for newer players, if "oh no aurene's dead oh hey she's alive again" happens.

    To me, it would cheapen our entire experience with her to have her not resurrect. It would cheapen the weight of this whole prophecy and our involvement in it, the bond that we formed with her, and it would cheapen Joko's death as well as Ogden's mention of his death being part of the prophecy if his death and her consumption of his magic doesn't play a part in her resurrection.

    Eh, Joko's death is cheapened to hell already. Hard to cheapen it further.

    And to note, I'm not saying "don't bring her back". I'm saying "bringing her back immediately would make the death itself an objectively cheap trick to get a fast reaction out of players." There's quite a difference.

    Your other alternatives? This entire time all we needed to do was wait for the pale tree to heal so she could take on the role of elder dragon and then we're just free to kill Kralk with no consequences? Didn't you mention many many threads ago that it wouldn't matter anyway because Aurene and Vlast were meant to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth and it didn't matter that Aurene only replaced Kralk because we still needed to fill those roles as per the vision in the Elon Riverlands exalted city? But now all of a sudden it's all about just replacing one elder dragon so we keep it at an even 3? How would the pale tree suddenly being shoved into the role of elder dragon making Aurene's existence practically pointless not cheapen the story? And why would Aurene's death be a necessary part of this? Because she telepathically shared some secret with Caithe and Caithe passes it onto the Pale Tree and suddenly everything's fine?

    It's not all of a sudden something else. We've always needed at least 4 Elder Dragons ever since we knew that killing a third would tip the balance of The All too far. With Flashpoint's end, we needed a bare minimum of 2 replacements, as 2 Elder Dragons (Primordus and Jormag) were asleep and inactive and thus we had time, and we need to deal with Kralkatorrik and the DSD. Long run, we need 4 replacements.

    The Pale Tree becoming a known viable replacement does not cheapen anything about Aurene or her death, as we still need Aurene - neither the Pale Tree nor Aurene can become "the one true Elder Dragon" which it seems you think is the case - it isn't. We need four pillars in The All; four Elder Dragons. Six is ideal, but a minimum of four is needed.

    Ever since folks began talking about Aurene replacing Kralkatorrik, I've stated time and time again "the smart thing to do would be to first find a replacement for Zhaitan or Mordremoth so we can kill Kralkatorrik without worries of things getting messed up". The plot instead went to killing Kralkatorrik immediately, and what happened? Things got messed up. The obvious solution remains find a replacement for Mordremoth or Zhaitan now so we can kill Kralkatorrik.

    We do not need a replacement for Kralkatorrik. We never did. We need a replacement for any two to four Elder Dragons.

    Even if the Pale Tree were to replace Mordremoth asap and we kill Kralkatorrik, that doesn't solve everything. Even if Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik and the Pale Tree replaced Mordremoth, that doesn't solve everything. That ideal situation would just allow us to kill the DSD with minimal side effects until we get two-four more replacements so long as Primordus and Jormag remain asleep.

    Also, I theorized that Aurene and Vlast were meant to replace Zhaitan and Mordremoth, I speculated as such based on their cities' location and how Glint was originally intending to replace Kralkatorrik. But that doesn't mean that we only want 3 replacements, just that that's what the Forgotten, Exalted, and Zephyrites could manage to prepare for.

    And who says Aurene's death is necessary? People who are clawing for the hope of her return and that this was "just according to plan".

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    I'm sorry, I tried bolding this like 10 times and it never worked, and then I changed it to header to attempt to make it slightly larger and it's just been a hot kitten mess. If a mod sees this and feels inclined, I was really just trying to make the header portion bold...

    Bolding an entire paragraph does kitten for emphasis. It actually makes it harder to read. Allcaps like you've done is even worse. I'm not even going to bother reading your post, it hurts my eyes too much.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    3. Basic logic dictates that you don't make a whole new model for Caithe only for its importance to be thrown away 5 minutes later when the being she's now connected with seemingly dies.

    Vlast... Completely new model, even skeleton and rigging by the looks of it... used for 5 minutes, in a mission you barely get to see it. Even less than Caithe, really.

    Not even the first time it's done, either. A lot of story bosses, for example, are short lived unique models.

    1. Likewise, basic logic dictates you don't spend this long building up Aurene only to kill her off in a penultimate episode of a season thus making everything pointless.

    You mean like how they built up the return of Lazarus over the course of three raids and four episodes only to do a complete 180 and made Lazarus into a meager footnote?

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Some very bold predictions.

    Just drop the pound signs from the other paragraphs to unbold them. You can always throw them in a quote block for emphasis, with a greater than sign.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    3. Basic logic dictates that you don't make a whole new model for Caithe only for its importance to be thrown away 5 minutes later when the being she's now connected with seemingly dies.

    Vlast... Completely new model, even skeleton and rigging by the looks of it... used for 5 minutes, in a mission you barely get to see it. Even less than Caithe, really.

    Not even the first time it's done, either. A lot of story bosses, for example, are short lived unique models.

    1. Likewise, basic logic dictates you don't spend this long building up Aurene only to kill her off in a penultimate episode of a season thus making everything pointless.

    You mean like how they built up the return of Lazarus over the course of three raids and four episodes only to do a complete 180 and made Lazarus into a meager footnote?

    On the note of Caithe, you also have to consider the extreme amount of work that went into Jokos cinematic. Probably even more work than what went into Caithe. I honestly think Caithe was no more than a way for Aurene to show how unlike Kralk she is to comfort the team during that moment. I wouldn’t be surprised if Aurene comes back and it’s not even mentioned again. At most it may simply serve as a signifier that her connection is back during another cinematic when the branding and flowers reappear. Being a momentary teaser that Aurenes back without immediately showing Aurene. In that sense I could see them doing that after we kill Kralk next season and then perhaps pushing Aurenes reintroduction for season 5 to appease this notion that people can’t seem to get over that this episode was somehow a waste of time if Aurene comes back next episode or in general. Because, you know, her resurrection would so cheapen the story even though we already saw visions of her death just the episode before and that somehow didn’t cheapen this episode at all....

    lol it’s so pointless debating this logic. It makes perfect sense to me but obviously I’m not the expert writer here!

  • @cptaylor.2670 said:
    [...] or constant needless sacrifices for the sake of blowing up the already reality-ending stakes even more. Just SO sick of the doom and gloom and constant sacrifice, and purple crystals, and sand, and bad lightning ground. [...]

    [...] I'm sorry, I tried bolding this like 10 times and it never worked, and then I changed it to header to attempt to make it slightly larger and it's just been a hot kitten mess. If a mod sees this and feels inclined, I was really just trying to make the header portion bold...

    @cptaylor.2670 You can use markup, eg. proper HTML tags < b > and < / b > to avoid markdown messing up.
    Rant: I already mentioned how markdown is a pest that never does what you want it to do, constantly messes up your formatting and creates unintentional formats on top of that. Markdown is just hot garbage that needs to go away. I constantly have to check quotes, because the quoteboxes can mess up as well. Why can't we just define a < quote > tag? /Rant

    Anyway, back on topic: As I already stated, a good story has to have meaningful drama. Just killing characters off for no good reason isn't meaningful. And in the case of Aurene leaving her dead is worse than the alternative. And there can be a bittersweet moment when Aurene, goes to sleep like an elder dragon and we know she'll not wake up for the rest of the Commander's lifespan. But I agree with your point that there has to be payoff. Otherwise the story will become meaningless.
    There needs to be an actual victory at some point, not just the delayed losses the writers seem oh so fond of, otherwise people will stop caring about the fate of Tyria.
    And at that point, why even bother replacing Kralkatorrik. Just blow the entire kittenhole of a world up. At least the resulting magical overload should produce some pretty pictures.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Vlast... Completely new model, even skeleton and rigging by the looks of it... used for 5 minutes, in a mission you barely get to see it. Even less than Caithe, really.

    Not even the first time it's done, either. A lot of story bosses, for example, are short lived unique models.

    That's not the same thing by any remote measure. You need to make a model for something if you want it to appear in-game in the first place. There is no need to make a NEW model for Caithe, an already existing character who already has a functional model, unless its going to be important later.

    You mean like how they built up the return of Lazarus over the course of three raids and four episodes only to do a complete 180 and made Lazarus into a meager footnote?

    Except they had suggested for some time that Lazarus wasn't actually Lazarus. You're ignoring the other half of that buildup phase.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Vlast... Completely new model, even skeleton and rigging by the looks of it... used for 5 minutes, in a mission you barely get to see it. Even less than Caithe, really.

    Not even the first time it's done, either. A lot of story bosses, for example, are short lived unique models.

    That's not the same thing by any remote measure. You need to make a model for something if you want it to appear in-game in the first place. There is no need to make a NEW model for Caithe, an already existing character who already has a functional model, unless its going to be important later.

    Caudecus' monster mode then. Or Matthias'. Or Xera's. Rox got a new outfit, then almost immediately changed it after three instances with her wearing that outfit. Canach has an armorless prison get up, which we see for 0.0000000001 seconds and a mini. There's honestly hundreds of short lived "changes to models" created for just a moment.

    It's not about whether or not the model would be important later. It's about whether or not it's important now, otherwise they'd put the effort into other models important now (like dwarves, instead they shortcutted those).

    Caithe will still have her new model, it just won't be with all flowers we saw, just some of the crystals and blue skin.

    And honestly, Caithe's flower disintegrating is a key factor that works against the "Aurene will return". When ZHaitan and MOrdremoth died, nothing happened to their minions except they lost their connection to the Elder Dragon's will. They didn't lose their power or corruption. Caithe did, suggesting that Aurene's very magic was taken away - could be why she didn't crystallize as well, as it's confirmed in The Trek of the Zephyrites that the crystals of Glint's body contained her magic. That's likely why her and Vlast's bodies crystallized, they still had magic as they died. Aurene not crystallizing could mean she isn't dead, or it could mean her magic was taken by Kralkatorrik.

    Except they had suggested for some time that Lazarus wasn't actually Lazarus. You're ignoring the other half of that buildup phase.

    That was suggested at the very end of Episode 4. Nothing else - literally nothing else - suggests otherwise. It's literally "Lazarus might return" -> "White Mantle's returned" -> "seems like Lazarus did return" -> "tracking down White Mant-Here's Lazzy!" -> "minor distraction but hey Lazzy's apparently good now?" -> "another minor distraction" -> "tracking down Caudecu-Lazzy might be fake, maybe?" -> "lazzy is fake, it's Balthazar!" -> "Let's go revive and kill Lazzy."

    "Lazarus might not be Lazarus" primarily, if not solely, crossed people's minds because there was a leak that Lazarus was actually Balthazar and the next expansion would focus on Primordus and Kralkatorrik, at roughly the same time we got Episode 2, and that leak spread. There was no in-game build up over Lazarus being fake, except for suggestions so obscure they can't even count (one of Caudecus' goons was wielding a Balthazar Shield when "Lazarus" first showed up; Lazarus used fire magic, but we know he was an elementalist and in GW2, unlike GW1, elementalists have free reign over all four elements without consequence).

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  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    This really isn't a strong argument to me. There were map changes elsewhere too, but on top of all that, work on the Ep6 map wouldn't have begun until Domain of Kourna was nearly done. So why would it be changed for Episode 1?

    Generally speaking, most MMO developers have high level ideas of where they want the story to go a year+ before they get there so they can have time to build the story in question, and thus have time to deal with any gameplay/logistical problems that might come up during that time. You basically have to to have releases lead in the direction you want to go to begin with.

    this reminds me of the EPIC FAIL that was Southsun. LOL

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    The term 'cheap' is getting thrown around a lot in here, but I'm not seeing much acknowledgement that we're all probably using different measures of value. For myself, it's not about the minutes of screentime that the character stays dead, it's about the impact the death has on the story going forward. If Aurene resurrects in the very first minute of the first patch, but then refuses to go through that again and as a result forces us to throw out any hope of a military solution to Kralkatorrik, then I wouldn't feel that the death was cheapened. If it takes us a whole season to get around to bringing her back, but then all characters involved act like it never happened, then the death would feel very cheapened, and the time in between wouldn't help a bit.

    There are a lot of different factors in play here. The permanency and gravity of death. The extensive investment we've cultivated in Aurene's character. The lack of viable narrative alternatives to our current predicament, and the way new alternatives would undermine the premise of the last two years of story. Clever use of established elements of the setting, or hamfisted introductions of convenient new elements. Emotional resonance and logical consistency. Even an opportunity to write a characters who might not work for you personally out of the plot. Something's going to give, whatever direction they take things, and I'd argue there's no 'wrong' answer to which of those things are most important.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Doghouse.1562Doghouse.1562 Member ✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Maguuma is my guess - I'll keep my reasons for myself why there. For now...

    I really hope not. I'm not sure my head could cope. It's bad enough that I already have "Maguma Jungle", "Heart of Maguma" and "Maguma Wastes" to try to keep sorted, without adding more...

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    aurene can't get resurrected because we need a spirit dragon to replace jormag.

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  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    I'm of the opinion Kralkatorrik being in the Mists and being a threat to all reality is going to be a crucial plotpoint for what happens next, and that he is indeed going to be disabled/imprisoned/delayed long enough in the Mists for people on Tyria to get a solution in place and ready.

    The map release will likely be related to that. Not Mists based because ArenaNet have said they're not doing that because of the world space stuff, but it will be connected to either the solution OR calling in/using what's going to keep Kralkatorrik busy.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:
    aurene can't get resurrected because we need a spirit dragon to replace jormag.

    I'd rather us just replicate the cleansing ritual and cleanse Drakkar.

    But if we fight Kralk in the mists, I could see the giant purple crater near Sandswept being a huge Bloodstone Fen-esque area with a giant rift in the center that we fly into to confront Kralk.

    But I still favor the idea of returning to his old resting spot, personally. It would be interesting to find out what drew him to that spot to begin with. I guess there doesn't really have to be a reason for him residing their though, given that all the dragons seem to wander off to a less-populated area anyway. Thus Mordremoth being on one corner of the world at the end of the jungle, Primordus being underground where nothing can really touch him anyway. Steve being in the ocean somewhere. Jormag presumably being up north somewhere but apparently being easily accessible enough for Braham to just waltz up there looking for him?

    Even though Thunderpeaks was right next to Highlands, I think it still signifies that we aren't really stuck to our current region. If they want to take us somewhere else, they clearly will whether it's a subtle hint from Caithe in the mail or a character we haven't seen in awhile saying, "Hey, you should go here because reasons."

    Glint obviously tied into Thunderhead so it made sense, but given where the story stands with Kralk phasing in and out of the mists wherever he pleases it could really be anywhere and they could make it work.

    If I remember correctly, they made some visual changes to Kralk's old resting spot, a minor change to an area near Scavenger's Causeway, and a few others I can't recall. Given that we saw Kourna and it was during the same timeframe as those other visual changes on the map, it seems logical to assume that we could be seeing a map in one of the areas that was changed around that same timeframe.

    https://imgur.com/139s5xF

    Scavenger's Causeway may be something I'm mis-remembering. But the changes to Sandswept, Kourna, and Jahai. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7h2nm9/changes_made_to_the_worldmap/

    That still leaves Kralk's old resting spot at the same timeframe of brand extension and Sandswept. This was a year ago.

    And the scavenger's causeway was actually two years ago - https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/54a3m3/a_small_change_ive_noticed_on_the_updated_world/
    So it seems kind of irrelevant at this point.

    The outlier for this is Thunderhead Peaks, as it wasn't one of the changes that was noticed on the map at the same time of the others.

    But again, it could be anywhere and be made to make sense.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    aurene can't get resurrected because we need a spirit dragon to replace jormag.

    I'd rather us just replicate the cleansing ritual and cleanse Drakkar.

    But if we fight Kralk in the mists, I could see the giant purple crater near Sandswept being a huge Bloodstone Fen-esque area with a giant rift in the center that we fly into to confront Kralk.

    But I still favor the idea of returning to his old resting spot, personally. It would be interesting to find out what drew him to that spot to begin with. I guess there doesn't really have to be a reason for him residing their though, given that all the dragons seem to wander off to a less-populated area anyway. Thus Mordremoth being on one corner of the world at the end of the jungle, Primordus being underground where nothing can really touch him anyway. Steve being in the ocean somewhere. Jormag presumably being up north somewhere but apparently being easily accessible enough for Braham to just waltz up there looking for him?

    Even though Thunderpeaks was right next to Highlands, I think it still signifies that we aren't really stuck to our current region. If they want to take us somewhere else, they clearly will whether it's a subtle hint from Caithe in the mail or a character we haven't seen in awhile saying, "Hey, you should go here because reasons."

    Glint obviously tied into Thunderhead so it made sense, but given where the story stands with Kralk phasing in and out of the mists wherever he pleases it could really be anywhere and they could make it work.

    If I remember correctly, they made some visual changes to Kralk's old resting spot, a minor change to an area near Scavenger's Causeway, and a few others I can't recall. Given that we saw Kourna and it was during the same timeframe as those other visual changes on the map, it seems logical to assume that we could be seeing a map in one of the areas that was changed around that same timeframe.

    https://imgur.com/139s5xF

    Scavenger's Causeway may be something I'm mis-remembering. But the changes to Sandswept, Kourna, and Jahai. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7h2nm9/changes_made_to_the_worldmap/

    That still leaves Kralk's old resting spot at the same timeframe of brand extension and Sandswept. This was a year ago.

    And the scavenger's causeway was actually two years ago - https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/54a3m3/a_small_change_ive_noticed_on_the_updated_world/
    So it seems kind of irrelevant at this point.

    The outlier for this is Thunderhead Peaks, as it wasn't one of the changes that was noticed on the map at the same time of the others.

    But again, it could be anywhere and be made to make sense.

    M8 i was joking

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  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    Of course we are going to Charr territories. And it is certainly isn’t only because of Rytlock, it is also because of the Olmakhans.

    Now that the battle against kralkatorrik has failed it puts the olmakhan territory in direct threat due to its proximity with kralkatorriks’ branded nest.
    Other than that, if we put on a tin foil hat, what if the olmakhans (or some of them) just wanted to become a minion of kralkatorrik ? As far as I remember (please correct me if I am wrong), it was stated in episode 2, that the group who formed the olmakhan tribe were former or close to flame legion. It might possible that their long journey towards southern territories was a long trip to get closer to kralkatorrik, because let’s be real here: who cares about titans since the scepter of Orr is nowhere to be seen and Abbadon was defeated ?

    The flame legion might know something about kralkatorrik that no other allied nations know about. And considering that at the release of episode you could actually see flame legion Charr models (that they quickly patched out) as part of your allies, it all makes perfect sense to me. It also reminds of how, prior to PoF, they loaded the wrong Wurm model into core zones.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:

    Other than that, if we put on a tin foil hat, what if the olmakhans (or some of them) just wanted to become a minion of kralkatorrik ? As far as I remember (please correct me if I am wrong), it was stated in episode 2, that the group who formed the olmakhan tribe were former or close to flame legion. It might possible that their long journey towards southern territories was a long trip to get closer to kralkatorrik, because let’s be real here: who cares about titans since the scepter of Orr is nowhere to be seen and Abbadon was defeated ?

    Timeline's the biggest issue. The Olmakhan made their trip two hundred years before Kralkatorrik woke up. At that point, had they known of the dragon, they were getting as far away from it as possible.

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  • @flog.3485 said:
    Of course we are going to Charr territories. And it is certainly isn’t only because of Rytlock, it is also because of the Olmakhans.

    Now that the battle against kralkatorrik has failed it puts the olmakhan territory in direct threat due to its proximity with kralkatorriks’ branded nest.

    Kralkatorrik's "nest" is in the Mists now though, no longer being that mountain. That's where Kralkatorrik was during Episodes 1-3, but since Episode 4 he's been chilling in the Mists.

    @flog.3485 said:
    The flame legion might know something about kralkatorrik that no other allied nations know about. And considering that at the release of episode you could actually see flame legion Charr models (that they quickly patched out) as part of your allies, it all makes perfect sense to me. It also reminds of how, prior to PoF, they loaded the wrong Wurm model into core zones.

    They had the correct model, actually. Just the wrong name. They had Blood Legion models with Flame Legion names. Similar to that one lone "Veteran Flame Legion Sentry" in Desert Borderlands, which is the same appearance and all that of the "Veteran Sentry" NPCs.

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  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    @flog.3485 said:

    Other than that, if we put on a tin foil hat, what if the olmakhans (or some of them) just wanted to become a minion of kralkatorrik ? As far as I remember (please correct me if I am wrong), it was stated in episode 2, that the group who formed the olmakhan tribe were former or close to flame legion. It might possible that their long journey towards southern territories was a long trip to get closer to kralkatorrik, because let’s be real here: who cares about titans since the scepter of Orr is nowhere to be seen and Abbadon was defeated ?

    Timeline's the biggest issue. The Olmakhan made their trip two hundred years before Kralkatorrik woke up. At that point, had they known of the dragon, they were getting as far away from it as possible.

    Oh really ? Forgot about this lore detail Thx for pointing it out to me.

  • dodgerrule.8739dodgerrule.8739 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    I think it will unlock one area in blood legion homelands is likely but no. We have better chances of them first setting up a funeral for someone, then finding a way out of mists, and finally entering the spot where the big splatter of corruption happened after pof.

    If Kralk doesn’t die then we will be setup to receive a new race in season 5, as the dragons will have been doing to much activity for it to be deemed safe by the tengu for them to ignore it any longer.

    Taimi will be the closer of the season 4 as her death awaits. She will be leaving us with some news of an invention she’d been working on with Gorrik to stop all the dragons from doing further harm

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    I think it will unlock one area in blood legion homelands is likely but no. We have better chances of them first setting up a funeral for someone, then finding a way out of mists, and finally entering the spot where the big splatter of corruption happened after pof.

    If Kralk doesn’t die then we will be setup to receive a new race in season 5, as the dragons will have been doing to much activity for it to be deemed safe by the tengu for them to ignore it any longer.

    Taimi will be the closer of the season 4 as her death awaits. She will be leaving us with some news of an invention she’d been working on with Gorrik to stop all the dragons from doing further harm

    Where would we have the funeral though? I can't see them doing it in Tarir or some Heart of Thorns area, because it's an area from another expansion which I don't think they've done before. I guess we could have it in the Grove, and if the pale tree ascends at some point and absorbs Mordremoth's magic and somehow absorbs enough of Zhaitan's magic we could see her resurrecting Aurene perhaps. I hadn't really thought of the idea of having a funeral as the start of the next episode, but I suppose it would give us reason to pick up in a different area instead of starting in the same instance which I think would be a little more unique and something they haven't done with any episodes thus far... also would fit the ending of the previous episode a lot better. But, again, not something they've done before so it seems unlikely to expect it to be any different now.

    I'm not sure I would jump to the conclusion of Tengu and a new playable race with season 5. From what we know, the living world teams are the only ones working on new releases, and a playable race seems like it would be a really difficult thing to juggle along with the episode releases. Especially as it would entail tying it into the current personal story, or creating an entirely new personal story. (Unless they wound up skipping that all together and by releasing it with season 5, give it enough exclusivity that it doesn't have to adhere to the rules of the other races creation and personal stories.) Not saying it's impossible, just don't think it's likely. I might have before we found out the team had been shuffled to focus on these canceled projects, but now it seems like mounts are the extent of what we can expect as new features for season 5. Also, I don't really see Tengu getting involved just because Kralk has became a larger threat. Because, if word got around that he's consuming reality, they've probably also been alerted to the fact that there's not really anything they could do even if they did get involved. So why join a fight that doesn't affect them anymore than it affects everyone else? Maybe some other elder dragon that was in closer proximity and put them in immediate danger or encroached on their lands, but Kralk seems like a bit of a stretch.

    And I would hate to think that Taimi would yet again save the day with Asura tech, but I'm not counting it out as a possibility.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    I think it will unlock one area in blood legion homelands is likely but no. We have better chances of them first setting up a funeral for someone, then finding a way out of mists, and finally entering the spot where the big splatter of corruption happened after pof.

    If Kralk doesn’t die then we will be setup to receive a new race in season 5, as the dragons will have been doing to much activity for it to be deemed safe by the tengu for them to ignore it any longer.

    Taimi will be the closer of the season 4 as her death awaits. She will be leaving us with some news of an invention she’d been working on with Gorrik to stop all the dragons from doing further harm

    Where would we have the funeral though? I can't see them doing it in Tarir or some Heart of Thorns area, because it's an area from another expansion which I don't think they've done before.

    Maybe Sun’s refuge? With the new zone being the Margo Coast or Sunward Marches (or Sunward Coast). That could potentially finish the Elona areas for most part.

  • Nexxus.5347Nexxus.5347 Member ✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    So way back before they released, I think it was episode 2, Anet did a lot of subtle map updates across the game world. These updates included changing the areas around
    -The area where The Sandsweapt Isles are located
    -Adding new details around Ganadara
    -Adding new detials around Jahai
    -Changes to the area around the Southern Shiverpeaks
    -Changes to the area of the Charr homelands where Kralkatorik was sleeping back in Guild wars 1

    Given that the first four areas became maps.... there's a pretty high chance that the last map of this living world season will take place in the Charr Homelands area where KRalkatorik was sleeping.

    So you Charr fans, theres some content for you

    Back in the day, the chief objection to that theory was that it would entail Kraalkatorik flying over existing maps and thus creating lots more brand in core tyria

    Now that he can travel through rifts, however...

    It would be kind of poetic if things end where they began.

    Dying dragon returns home, the last place it felt safe... I can see that.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    I think it will unlock one area in blood legion homelands is likely but no. We have better chances of them first setting up a funeral for someone, then finding a way out of mists, and finally entering the spot where the big splatter of corruption happened after pof.

    If Kralk doesn’t die then we will be setup to receive a new race in season 5, as the dragons will have been doing to much activity for it to be deemed safe by the tengu for them to ignore it any longer.

    Taimi will be the closer of the season 4 as her death awaits. She will be leaving us with some news of an invention she’d been working on with Gorrik to stop all the dragons from doing further harm

    Where would we have the funeral though? I can't see them doing it in Tarir or some Heart of Thorns area, because it's an area from another expansion which I don't think they've done before.

    Maybe Sun’s refuge? With the new zone being the Margo Coast or Sunward Marches (or Sunward Coast). That could potentially finish the Elona areas for most part.

    Main problem is that Sun's Refuge is an actual part of Jahai Bluffs, so while we may connect to it and Jahai, I doubt we'll be going into Sun's Refuge. :/

    If a funeral happens, it'll likely happen in Amnoon (the go to regroup local of S4), somewhere in core, or the new map.

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  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @dodgerrule.8739 said:
    I think it will unlock one area in blood legion homelands is likely but no. We have better chances of them first setting up a funeral for someone, then finding a way out of mists, and finally entering the spot where the big splatter of corruption happened after pof.

    If Kralk doesn’t die then we will be setup to receive a new race in season 5, as the dragons will have been doing to much activity for it to be deemed safe by the tengu for them to ignore it any longer.

    Taimi will be the closer of the season 4 as her death awaits. She will be leaving us with some news of an invention she’d been working on with Gorrik to stop all the dragons from doing further harm

    Where would we have the funeral though? I can't see them doing it in Tarir or some Heart of Thorns area, because it's an area from another expansion which I don't think they've done before.

    Maybe Sun’s refuge? With the new zone being the Margo Coast or Sunward Marches (or Sunward Coast). That could potentially finish the Elona areas for most part.

    Main problem is that Sun's Refuge is an actual part of Jahai Bluffs, so while we may connect to it and Jahai, I doubt we'll be going into Sun's Refuge. :/

    If a funeral happens, it'll likely happen in Amnoon (the go to regroup local of S4), somewhere in core, or the new map.

    Yeah, I just figured it would be kinda powerful if they had her dead body among all the toys that you gathered for her in Sun’s Refuge, including the toys from when she was a baby.

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I could see the funeral being in Glint's lair if it's something personal for us and our close allies. If it's something where the whole world can pay respects, it'll be somewhere easy to access like Lion's Arch or another city

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  • Rexts.8037Rexts.8037 Member ✭✭

    It would be interesting if last episode leads us to visit the last seer we had known in GW1.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rexts.8037 said:
    It would be interesting if last episode leads us to visit the last seer we had known in GW1.

    From what we were told in S3E6, that seer is now dead.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The last episode map could be anywhere, however I hope they keep it around the Crystal Desert /Elona area. Which would be a fitting way to end the season and leave the continent.

  • Lonami.2987Lonami.2987 Member ✭✭✭

    My top three bets:

    • Charr Homelands: Kralkatorrik's resting place, might have tips to defeat him. Good introduction if LW5 deals with lands east of Ascalon.
    • Ruins of Surmia: Portal to the Mists there. Good introduction if we're going to the mists to fight Kralkatorrik.
    • South of the Desolation: Kralkatorrik's last location before entering the Mists, might have tips to defeat him.
  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Blood Legion Homelands is looking likely to be the next map location.. although i'm not sure why.

    My best guess is Rytlock asks us to go there..

    All we know from the last episode is that we have no idea what to do next.
    Kralk is back in the mists according to Rytlocks requiem and we've no way of getting to him nor any way of stopping him even if we could.. and even if we did his death would end the world anyway.. so at the current point in time.. we're utterly screwed lol

    I expect the next episode will be largley about doom and gloom.. perhaps Dragons Watch disbands and each member returns to their homeland.. Rytlocks cubs being announced in his requiem may be the reason Rytlock wants to return there.

    I still think Aurine coming back branded is the most likely main story scenario.. and I think the next season will focus on us trying to find the Forgotten or attempting to discover everything we can on the ritual used to free Glint so that we can capture the now Branded Aurine and attempt to break her corruption.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2019

    I think we'll only be going to the Charr Homelands as part of Season 5, which will, I think, be clean-up and recovery from the finale that will be Episode 6 and setting up a potential new expansion.

    For the Episode itself, I now believe we will be going somewhere with another portal to the Mists. The map will not be the Mists itself because ArenaNet have said that isn't going to happen, it needs to be somewhere in the world. The portal in the Primeval Tomb we know leads to Kormir's Sanctum which is now abandoned, so it will be functionally useless to go there again, and also, you know, there needs to be a new map.

    It could be somewhere in Elona, but with Thunderhead Peaks that throws it into the air somewhat, it doesn't necessarily have to be in Elona.

    I've got a sneaking suspicion, and hope, that it might be somewhere in Orr, possibly the southern portion that is connected to Elona. An "Artesian Valley" or similar locale if you will.

    Either that, or as has been said Kralkatorrik's mesa where he was hanging out after the main Path of Fire story finished, or somewhere further out into the Crystal Desert.

  • zityz.6089zityz.6089 Member ✭✭

    The Magic being released will need to go somewhere when we kill Kralk, As it has been with the other dragons/ massive forms of magic, its going to be absorbed by the other dragons. Which, with that kind of amount of magic being released will need to jolt something up. Best thing to deal with would be Jormag, as he is the only dragon currently still above ground.

    "If" Aurene is still alive, I would suspect they're the idea is to conform all the magic into one outlet to house it all. I can see her coming back near the end of the next season as it will have been enough time in between to rest her "death".

    Other option, would be for us to kill Kralk in the mists which triggers the magic effect to explode and cause some for of effect or transfer to a non dragon.

    Personally, I like both ideas of killing Jormag, and maybe having to deal with something else besides a dragon, Return of Dhuum, Menzies or other.
    There is also a possibility to work it in that since Jormag and Primordius are asleep, we can just deal with bubbles in order to open up the water and airways for people to travel to and from Cantha.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zityz.6089 said:
    The Magic being released will need to go somewhere when we kill Kralk, As it has been with the other dragons/ massive forms of magic, its going to be absorbed by the other dragons. Which, with that kind of amount of magic being released will need to jolt something up. Best thing to deal with would be Jormag, as he is the only dragon currently still above ground.

    "If" Aurene is still alive, I would suspect they're the idea is to conform all the magic into one outlet to house it all. I can see her coming back near the end of the next season as it will have been enough time in between to rest her "death".

    Other option, would be for us to kill Kralk in the mists which triggers the magic effect to explode and cause some for of effect or transfer to a non dragon.

    Personally, I like both ideas of killing Jormag, and maybe having to deal with something else besides a dragon, Return of Dhuum, Menzies or other.
    There is also a possibility to work it in that since Jormag and Primordius are asleep, we can just deal with bubbles in order to open up the water and airways for people to travel to and from Cantha.

    Maybe, but the story has pretty heavily implied that kralks position has to be taken by some elder dragon. Just replacing it with another god seems like it would diminish the original reason why the gods left Tyria. Idk. I’m sure it will be something out of left field though if they’re really keeping Aurene out of the picture. But hey, they had their shocking dramatic death scene amongst the many others. When all else fails, just make some character a martyr and keep on truckin.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    Wouldn't it be cool if it was still in the northern part of Deldrimor so the Hoelbrack and the Iron Legion help. All and all i want to see the Iron legion use the Death Star they call The Black Citadel as a Big kitten "Laser" , the Pact could supply the Iron Legion with the research of professor Gorr. It will be kinda poetic justice with all the history the char have with Kralkatorik , and it will hit some of that epic notes from the intro "With engines of destruction we have killed our gods".

  • dodgerrule.8739dodgerrule.8739 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the likely place will be between Metrica Province and tangled depths.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    Maybe, but the story has pretty heavily implied that kralks position has to be taken by some elder dragon. Just replacing it with another god seems like it would diminish the original reason why the gods left Tyria. Idk. I’m sure it will be something out of left field though if they’re really keeping Aurene out of the picture. But hey, they had their shocking dramatic death scene amongst the many others. When all else fails, just make some character a martyr and keep on truckin.

    Not to mention that it would completely remove the entire purpose for Path of Fire and why we antagonized Balthazar into becoming out enemy rather than had kept him as an ally. The entire reasoning for our fight was "Balthazar's actions would destroy Tyria", and if that turns out untrue, then we just had an entire year's worth of plot for no reason.

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  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2019

    I would kind of like to see, regardless of what happens with Kralkatorrik, the Commander being comparatively disgraced regardless due to their handling of Balthazar, Joko and then even Kralkatorrik himself. That would be an interesting way to take the story in my opinion.

    Because let's be honest, for people who don't have all the knowledge we have looking at what the Commander's done, it's not exactly been very well handled, now has it? From their perspective the Commander's been stumbling from crisis to crisis and only really solving it through sheer blind luck and fortune.

    I think that's going to be the ultimate "from hells heart I stab at thee" from Joko - Being proven right about the Commander to others in the universe, even if we the players know the Commander really had very little choice.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I would kind of like to see, regardless of what happens with Kralkatorrik, the Commander being comparatively disgraced regardless due to their handling of Balthazar, Joko and then even Kralkatorrik himself. That would be an interesting way to take the story in my opinion.

    Because let's be honest, for people who don't have all the knowledge we have looking at what the Commander's done, it's not exactly been very well handled, now has it? From their perspective the Commander's been stumbling from crisis to crisis and only really solving it through sheer blind luck and fortune.

    I think that's going to be the ultimate "from hells heart I stab at thee" from Joko - Being proven right about the Commander to others in the universe, even if we the players know the Commander really had very little choice.

    I don't think the people that have limited knowledge of what we've done or why would really be judging us or thinking we're being messy. They'll just be thinking, 'well I'm still alive so who am I to tell them what to do or how to do it?' Maybe the other members of destiny's edge or dragon's watch, or leadership within our alliances, but they have knowledge and understanding of what we've done don't they? Just ordinary civilians I don't think would really put that much thought into it to judge us in the way that Joko was implying.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    I would kind of like to see, regardless of what happens with Kralkatorrik, the Commander being comparatively disgraced regardless due to their handling of Balthazar, Joko and then even Kralkatorrik himself. That would be an interesting way to take the story in my opinion.

    Because let's be honest, for people who don't have all the knowledge we have looking at what the Commander's done, it's not exactly been very well handled, now has it? From their perspective the Commander's been stumbling from crisis to crisis and only really solving it through sheer blind luck and fortune.

    I think that's going to be the ultimate "from hells heart I stab at thee" from Joko - Being proven right about the Commander to others in the universe, even if we the players know the Commander really had very little choice.

    I'd like to see something like this, too. Honestly, I'm still amazed that the Commander can freely show their face in Amnoon after all that kitten they "caused" there...

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Because let's be honest, for people who don't have all the knowledge we have looking at what the Commander's done, it's not exactly been very well handled, now has it? From their perspective the Commander's been stumbling from crisis to crisis and only really solving it through sheer blind luck and fortune.

    I'd say from the non-Dragon's Watch perspective, most people think that the Commander had a solid plan that worked well despite a few kinks here and there, at least in regards to Balthazar and Joko. Even from a member's of Dragon's Watch's perspective, it could be seen as far more than sheer blind luck and fortune and going with the flow. Hell, more often than not things work out despite bad luck (like Zaeim being captured; that's bad luck for the Commander, yet he got it to work out by being the first ever to infiltrate the Great Mordant Crescent Hall's prison).

    The plans are definitely kitten. They basically amount to what HoT got criticized for: "Let's get to the enemy and then figure it out from there." Yet it always works, and because the Commander never announces the "and figure it out from there" part, people would no doubt presume they have a plan for when they get there when they don't.

    And if we manage to kill Kralkatorrik in Episode 6, no matter how, even All or Nothing's failure will just turn out to be "a moment of bad luck that the Commander managed to break through".

    I've wanted a "Dragon's Watch versus Destiny's Edge" plotline, but that's been tossed down the drain with Braham's forgiveness, and a "society bashes on the Commander, who's done the impossible, because he messed up a few times" doesn't really seem reasonable if we never really got a proper sylvari-bashing plot, or a proper Krytan civil war plot (we had Lake Doric and that was all, despite all the build up).

    @anninke.7469 said:
    I'd like to see something like this, too. Honestly, I'm still amazed that the Commander can freely show their face in Amnoon after all that kitten they "caused" there...

    Such as? The only things that happened were Kralkatorrik attacking Amnoon - not the Commander's fault - and Joko attacking Amnoon - which he does even if Amnoon allies with Joko, so not the Commander's fault, though if the Commander chose to ally with Sunspears, the citizens probably don't feel that way. Nothing else really happened to Amnoon, and the Commander ended up killing Joko and Balthazar thus freeing them of their two greatest non-Kralkatorrik plights. And in very short order.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Such as? The only things that happened were Kralkatorrik attacking Amnoon - not the Commander's fault - and Joko attacking Amnoon - which he does even if Amnoon allies with Joko, so not the Commander's fault, though if the Commander chose to ally with Sunspears, the citizens probably don't feel that way. Nothing else really happened to Amnoon, and the Commander ended up killing Joko and Balthazar thus freeing them of their two greatest non-Kralkatorrik plights. And in very short order.

    But both of those can be seen as the Commander's fault if one wishes to and Joko certainly didn't help with his little performance. And then there's still the incident with Gorrik and the Commander's opposition to Councilor Mayameen. It's a minor thing but could be the last nail in the coffin and make the Commander at least "not welcome" in Amnoon. I mean, look a scape goat at hand for all the recent bad stuff going on.

    (I'm sorry if I don't make much sense language-wise, seems I'm a bit out of shape today.)

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Such as? The only things that happened were Kralkatorrik attacking Amnoon - not the Commander's fault - and Joko attacking Amnoon - which he does even if Amnoon allies with Joko, so not the Commander's fault, though if the Commander chose to ally with Sunspears, the citizens probably don't feel that way. Nothing else really happened to Amnoon, and the Commander ended up killing Joko and Balthazar thus freeing them of their two greatest non-Kralkatorrik plights. And in very short order.

    But both of those can be seen as the Commander's fault if one wishes to and Joko certainly didn't help with his little performance. And then there's still the incident with Gorrik and the Commander's opposition to Councilor Mayameen. It's a minor thing but could be the last nail in the coffin and make the Commander at least "not welcome" in Amnoon. I mean, look a scape goat at hand for all the recent bad stuff going on.

    (I'm sorry if I don't make much sense language-wise, seems I'm a bit out of shape today.)

    A storm making fishing in the harbor difficult can be seen as the Commander's fault if one wishes to. Doesn't make it remotely true for anyone with two brain cells. I fail to see how a known and untrusted tyrant calling out someone while simultaneously talking about using the neighborhood as an experiment / attacking due to lack of loyalty, would seriously paint that as said someone's fault.

    The Gorrik situation varies depending on how the player handled it - in most situations, where the Commander doesn't mention the Scarab Plague, it's a very small thing indeed. Especially if the Commander called Mayameen for being the obvious racist she was being. Because of this, Arenanet cannot create a plot for all players using that as a reason. This also goes towards Joko - the reason he attacks Amnoon changes, and it's not always easy to put blame on the Commander. Hell, even with the PoF speech at the end, which resulted in dialogue change for the first S4 instance, cannot always be reasonable to just blame the Commander.

    The only people who would blame the Commander for the kitten that happened in Amnoon are the griefstrucken who aren't thinking straight (and they'd have gotten enough time since the most latest situation, and very clearly showed no signs of blaming the Commander for prior events during the last one we saw - Joko) and those who don't actually care for that but use it because they need some sort of excuse for their pointless hostility. It will be a minority of people, and it won't lead anywhere.

    Especially since, as I said, ArenaNet has shown time and time again the lack of interest in this kind of plot.

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  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And honestly, Caithe's flower disintegrating is a key factor that works against the "Aurene will return". When ZHaitan and MOrdremoth died, nothing happened to their minions except they lost their connection to the Elder Dragon's will. They didn't lose their power or corruption. Caithe did, suggesting that Aurene's very magic was taken away - could be why she didn't crystallize as well, as it's confirmed in The Trek of the Zephyrites that the crystals of Glint's body contained her magic. That's likely why her and Vlast's bodies crystallized, they still had magic as they died. Aurene not crystallizing could mean she isn't dead, or it could mean her magic was taken by Kralkatorrik.

    '
    Sylvari can shed parts of themselves at will and it entirely possible, if not probable, Caithe did so out of grief. And the Zephyrites saw Glint as a crystal/sky "sponge". Aurene holds much more than the magic for becoming shrapnel, she wouldn't necessarily shatter. Moreover, it's posited in Sacrifice that Vlast intentionally crystalized to leave information behind. If it's not automatic, Aurene would have chosen to preserve her corpse, which points towards resurrection.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    A storm making fishing in the harbor difficult can be seen as the Commander's fault if one wishes to. Doesn't make it remotely true for anyone with two brain cells. I fail to see how a known and untrusted tyrant calling out someone while simultaneously talking about using the neighborhood as an experiment / attacking due to lack of loyalty, would seriously paint that as said someone's fault.

    The Gorrik situation varies depending on how the player handled it - in most situations, where the Commander doesn't mention the Scarab Plague, it's a very small thing indeed. Especially if the Commander called Mayameen for being the obvious racist she was being. Because of this, Arenanet cannot create a plot for all players using that as a reason. This also goes towards Joko - the reason he attacks Amnoon changes, and it's not always easy to put blame on the Commander. Hell, even with the PoF speech at the end, which resulted in dialogue change for the first S4 instance, cannot always be reasonable to just blame the Commander.

    The only people who would blame the Commander for the kitten that happened in Amnoon are the griefstrucken who aren't thinking straight (and they'd have gotten enough time since the most latest situation, and very clearly showed no signs of blaming the Commander for prior events during the last one we saw - Joko) and those who don't actually care for that but use it because they need some sort of excuse for their pointless hostility. It will be a minority of people, and it won't lead anywhere.

    Especially since, as I said, ArenaNet has shown time and time again the lack of interest in this kind of plot.

    You know what? You're actually right. I just got a little too real-life-ish (especially on believing a known and untrustworthy tyrant, I've seen lot of that lately where I live). And for Mayameen I believe the danger would come from her wounded pride. People don't generally like being told (and proven) to be wrong. More so if they're in a position of power.

    And yes, I know Anet has no interest in this. It's just a bit of wishful dreaming on my side.

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

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