Can we make "soft" CC less useless against breakbars? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can we make "soft" CC less useless against breakbars?

HOT introduced breakbars, maybe a bit too frequently, as even many regular enemies had them, making then frustrating to fight if your character depended on your enemies being crippled or chilled to properly kite them (what crowd control is).

Maybe worse is that because of how breakbars work, good pve builds should include at least a few hard CCs, since soft CC hardly does breakbar damage to bosses in large group events.

This brings a dilemma in open world play, since builds which work really well against hordes of "trash" enemies (for example, chill based mallyx revenant), may suddenly find themselves not contributing at all to breaking bars during metas.

The core of the issue is that soft CC does breakbar damage, and it's quite decent at it.... as long as the boss isn't scaled. The moment more players join and the breakbar starts scaling up, soft CC becomes moot, because it doesn't scale up at all (as it stacks in duration, not intensity), and thus it becomes irrelevant.

Could this be addressed somehow? For example, I would like it if soft CC would be consumed faster (and thus did more breakbar damage) the more the bar is scaled.

Any other ideas?

Comments

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    My idea:

    Mega-weakness

    • If you use a CC on an enemy with breakbar, It will reduce the enemy damage, like weakness.
    • Only works on enemies with breakbar and only works when the enemy with breakbar is in the process of recovering breakbar(orange instead of blue) or cannot be broken(Breakbar is black and has a orange shield). All stacks is removed and the enemy is immune to mega-weakness when break bar is ready to be break(Breakbar is blue).
    • Mega-weakness stacks intensity.

    Mega-cripple

    • If you use a soft cc/slow on an enemy with breakbar, it will slow the enemy, like cripple.
    • Only works on enemies with breakbar and only works when the enemy with breakbar is in the process of recovering breakbar(orange instead of blue) or cannot be broken(Breakbar is black and has a orange shield). All stacks is removed and the enemy is immune to mega-cripple when break bar is ready to be break(Breakbar is blue).
    • Mega-cripple stacks duration.

    Enemies with breakbar are immune to Regular Weakness and cripple anyways.

    Aggression and Denial stat

    • Aggression buffs hard CC/disables like Stuns, daze, fear, etc. Denial buffs soft cc like cripple, chill, immobilize.
    • Replaces Toughness and Vitality because they are broken in PvP and useless in PvE. It is necessary because this should be a core stat that everyone access. If necessary, toughness and vitality moves somewhere else as only endgame raids and WvW needs it. If not, it needs to be accessed by core players.
    • These stats buffs can range from more duration of CC to more damage to breakbars, duration of mega-weakness and intensity of mega-cripple.

    To balance this, all enemies with breakbar are buffed reasonably to offset the power creep. They may buff speed + damage of the enemy with breakbar. This will only be necessary to Fractals and Raids. ANet should not buff enemies in story instances nor open world.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 19, 2019

    I actually like the weakness idea that it stacks and reduces outgoing damage, like a reverse vulnerability (with a cap of 25 meaning -25% outgoing damage, a lot of one shot deaths would be prevented). Unfortunately, I just don't ANet reworking a condition to behave differently based on breakbar existence.

    on the other hand, I wonder how useful it would be to slow down boss attack animations. Monsters already idle a lot between attacks, and general visual clutter would render such effects pointless. Not to mention that is also changes the effect of cripple into the realm of slow.

    As for the rest, that's actually a more complicated rework than what I believe ANet would take on. :P

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    I actually like the weakness idea that it stacks and reduces outgoing damage, like a reverse vulnerability (with a cap of 25 meaning -25% outgoing damage, a lot of one shot deaths would be prevented). Unfortunately, I just don't ANet reworking a condition to behave differently based on breakbar existence.

    on the other hand, I wonder how useful it would be to slow down boss attack animations. Monsters already idle a lot between attacks, and general visual clutter would render such effects pointless. Not to mention that is also changes the effect of cripple into the realm of slow.

    As for the rest, that's actually a more complicated rework than what I believe ANet would take on. :P

    Making CC and slows work on breakbar enemies will fundamentally change how GW2 combat works. Making CC work needs to be designed well and be tested over and over again. This should never be a band-aid that to be added lightly and actually require ANet to work on it. The fact that break bar enemies are immune to CC and slows is a band-aid by itself.

    6x warrior/5xRanger/6x Revenant/6x Mesmer/5x Guardian/6x Thief/5x Engineer/5x Necromancer/5x Elementalist

  • Rhyse.8179Rhyse.8179 Member ✭✭✭

    Chill, Cripple and Blind all do breakbar damage over time. Chill isn't half bad, in fact. The problem is they don't stack, so once it's on the boss other players adding more does nothing.

    Solution IMO is to add a small insta-damage effect to those conditions that only applies if the target already has the condition on it.

  • @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The core of the issue is that soft CC does breakbar damage, and it's quite decent at it.... as long as the boss isn't scaled. The moment more players join and the breakbar starts scaling up, soft CC becomes moot, because it doesn't scale up at all (as it stacks in duration, not intensity), and thus it becomes irrelevant.

    There are so few bosses that scale up that much. What's the problem with adjusting one's build for those few to add more hard CC?

    I'm not against an adjustment; I just don't think it's necessary.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    There are so few bosses that scale up that much. What's the problem with adjusting one's build for those few to add more hard CC?

    It may be that players don't actually like doing this. I am reminded of the several threads complaining about serpent's ire meta. :D considering that GW2 is generally seen as a casual-friendly mmo, it would make sense that people should be able to stick to generally fine builds and use that everywhere, except for hardcore content (triple wurm, tier-4 fractals, raids).

    As such, having all soft CCs become pointless for group events is somewhat... not fair? It makes building for pve more of a chore as now you have builds which are more effective against breakbars and others which are best for those without. :/

    if at least most bosses had several adds where your cc would help manage... except that if they aren't champions, they'll die too fast for your CC to matter at all anyway. :/

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not fair? That people can just run full damage zerk with no consideration of mechanics?

    Smh.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Not fair? That people can just run full damage zerk with no consideration of mechanics?

    Smh.

    That's also not fair, but not the point of the topic. :P for better or for worse, how events scale only keeps the challenge up to a certain level, beyond that it becomes a zerg-rush spam-1 fiesta, and we need to look no farther than the Istan meta for proof. :/

    Perhaps that's why there hasn't been much need to look at this specific issue, as the content is already trivial enough at large scale that soft cc application doesn't matter (perhaps with a few notable exceptions such as vinetooth prime and serpent's ire).

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    Not fair? That people can just run full damage zerk with no consideration of mechanics?

    Smh.

    That's also not fair, but not the point of the topic. :P for better or for worse, how events scale only keeps the challenge up to a certain level, beyond that it becomes a zerg-rush spam-1 fiesta, and we need to look no farther than the Istan meta for proof. :/

    Perhaps that's why there hasn't been much need to look at this specific issue, as the content is already trivial enough at large scale that soft cc application doesn't matter (perhaps with a few notable exceptions such as vinetooth prime and serpent's ire).

    But it is the inevitable point of the thread.

    Soft CC needs to be just that. For many other reasons. And let’s face it, some of the break bars move differently: ie it takes more CC period whether 5 or 50 people hitting it.

    Things SHOULD be able to fail.

    If they can’t, what’s really the point?

    Just give out the loot chests for showing up?

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

  • I've seen some people lament that players are lazy when it comes to using CCs against break bars on big bosses. I think there is some level of 'I'll let someone else take care of it' going on, but I think part of it is how surprisingly easy it is to have a build that just doesn't have any hard CCs. It doesn't help that it doesn't matter for most PvE, and you can have a build that's great for everything else, but suddenly becomes useless against a break bar (and you better hope it's not an enemy where that's their main weakness). I'm not saying there shouldn't be strategy in builds, or builds that are better at one thing more than another, but it's about the extreme nature of it. Sometimes I'm running around doing something else and happen to pass by one of these enemies and go to help others, only to feel completely helpless once the break phase starts. This is definitely something that's going to be a hurdle for new players as well, since it's not that obvious, especially since some of the things that do affect the break bar, don't affect it in any meaningful way.

    In other words, I agree with the topic. I'd like to see the weaker things be brought up just a tad, enough to make break bars less of an 'all or nothing' situation that I feel like they are right now. I don't even think it would have to change the balance that much. Honestly, I feel like there are a lot of enemies that are intended to be broken more often than I ever see them.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    It's worthless because it doesn't stack intensity. Adding 4 seconds of slow to a pile of slow that never drops off the target doesn't increase the amount of breakbar damage dealt. In essence, all breakbar damage from soft CC beyond the amount required to keep it applied continuously is wasted. In large groups, this means that most soft CC is essentially wasted.

    So, a condition like arcane thievery which deals up to 400 breakbar damage for a solo player could potentially add 0 damage to the breakbar of a scaled up boss in a large group. Perhaps that's intended? But it seems a little bit off to me if scaling does what we expect scaling to do.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah, when a boss is not scaled, your soft CC does notable damage to the break bar, when the event becomes sufficiently scaled, it doesn't even prevent the bar from regenerating.

    Thus, a build that relies on mostly soft CC CAN deal with break bars, but once scaled, they do "nothing" and depend on others on being hard CC to break it.

    The problem is.... if the group has a significant number of players relying on soft CC to disable bosses, suddenly their contribution is void once the boss scales up enough, a situation that does no apply to hard CC builds, thus making them significantly better for metas (if break bars are impactful).

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    Single target they're perfectly fine. In giant blobs of players it is irrelevant either way. No need to change anything. Keep in mind that only 20% of a zerg contribute to 80% of the work :) Rest is 1 1 1 1 spammers.

    So the only time this would matter is a low man run with a champion that has a big breakbar. Even then, having slows etc. on him does quite a bit. They don't last forever either, but OBVIOUSLY they cannot reach level of dedicated CC skills. Again, I fail to see the issue at hand even there. Rarely is a breakbar ever a problem. Even Serpent's Ire is a joke. The mechanic simply weeds out all those people who refuse to do anything

    Smugly chuckling forever.
    My sentence doesn't make sense? Well, I probably forgot to write half of it before posting.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    It's worthless because it doesn't stack intensity. Adding 4 seconds of slow to a pile of slow that never drops off the target doesn't increase the amount of breakbar damage dealt. In essence, all breakbar damage from soft CC beyond the amount required to keep it applied continuously is wasted. In large groups, this means that most soft CC is essentially wasted.

    So, a condition like arcane thievery which deals up to 400 breakbar damage for a solo player could potentially add 0 damage to the breakbar of a scaled up boss in a large group. Perhaps that's intended? But it seems a little bit off to me if scaling does what we expect scaling to do.

    Let me give you a riddle. How many professions in this game has access to slow? If you add up the base durations of these, how many seconds is it? Lastly does this combined duration exceed any cooldowns on slow-giving skills?

    Arcane Thievery still does 400 damage whether upscaled or not. But instead of it being 10% on a 4000 hp boss it's now 1% of a 40000 hp upscaled boss. Also the boss goes from regenerating 1% every second in the first case, when upscaled it's 5%. Sure in the 1st case you prevented regeneration and damaged his bar by 9%. But in the second you only lowered his regeneration from 5% to 4%. The reason is simple, if we add more players but keep the boss downscaled the bar will break in less than a second by 1 single player - how is that fun for anyone? So instead of giving any single player that power when upscaled, it goes from empowering a single players cobtribution to empowering group play. Meaning soft cc's are now there to stop bar regeneration and hard cc from multiple professions are now needed in order to break it. Furthermore it disables conditions randomly in order to encourage uptimes on different ones. The higher profession wide access we have on a condi and it's base durations are long, the less damage they do. This is, again, to encourage each profession to bring their unique "strong" soft cc. You waste your skills in no way other than someone else using hard cc when the bar is broken.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said: Again, I fail to see the issue at hand even there. Rarely is a breakbar ever a problem. Even Serpent's Ire is a joke. The mechanic simply weeds out all those people who refuse to do anything

    perhaps you've missed what the issue actually is. You do mention what 20% do most of the job, what if part of it is because there are plenty of people whose builds rely on soft CC to manage crowds, and thus their contribution to breaking bars is invalidated in larger groups?

    My suggestion is that soft CC damage to break bars should scale up to keep the damage ratio per second despite the amount of players, but that also means that duration needs be scaled in like. For example, a boss that has their break bar scaled to 200% the base value, would have soft CC do double damage, but also have their duration reduced by half.

  • HardRider.2980HardRider.2980 Member ✭✭✭

    So basically asking to do everything.

    You can't have top DPS and also be able to do such things like Hard CC etc. There's always a trade off.

    A City of Heroes never die... A City of Villains will never surrender... Neither City will be forgotten.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The core of the issue is that soft CC does breakbar damage, and it's quite decent at it.... as long as the boss isn't scaled. The moment more players join and the breakbar starts scaling up, soft CC becomes moot, because it doesn't scale up at all (as it stacks in duration, not intensity), and thus it becomes irrelevant.

    There are so few bosses that scale up that much. What's the problem with adjusting one's build for those few to add more hard CC?

    You're probably thinking about instanced bosses where we can adjust the group for them. For open world events like Matriarch, or Serpent's ire, it's impractical. Most of the crowd won't adjust their builds for those no matter what we say. And thus we arrive at a design inconsistency - we actually don't want more players at those events, because it's then harder to deal with breakbars. WHich, as you know, is something that works against one of the primary design goals for open world.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    CC is good as it is.
    Imagine the horror of Mordremoth if these changes came to pass....

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 20, 2019

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

    When it comes to hard CC, the group could be made up of exactly one profession, one build of the profession even, and every character in the group can actually work to break the bar with the same exact hard CC skill if they use it all at once. Your explanation does not touch on that.

    Again: The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Single target they're perfectly fine. In giant blobs of players it is irrelevant either way. No need to change anything. Keep in mind that only 20% of a zerg contribute to 80% of the work :) Rest is 1 1 1 1 spammers.

    So the only time this would matter is a low man run with a champion that has a big breakbar. Even then, having slows etc. on him does quite a bit. They don't last forever either, but OBVIOUSLY they cannot reach level of dedicated CC skills. Again, I fail to see the issue at hand even there. Rarely is a breakbar ever a problem. Even Serpent's Ire is a joke. The mechanic simply weeds out all those people who refuse to do anything

    So when we fail a breakbar in an open world event and people start griping at each other about CC, how do you know it's not just the impact of soft CC effectively doing nothing? Take the wyvern matriarch, for example. It's a quick breakbar, which makes the lack of impact from soft CC that much worse (i.e. you only get a few seconds worth and the rest is wasted). It's also a key breakbar, extending the fight by a significant margin for each failure. Is it a coincidence that this boss is trivial with a group of 5 but usually takes forever with a group of 50? I suppose it's just because the group of 5 is always a bunch of pros who use their CC, right? Not because breakbar scaling breaks down due to this soft CC issue, and most noticeably on a quick breakbar like this one? How can you be sure?

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The core of the issue is that soft CC does breakbar damage, and it's quite decent at it.... as long as the boss isn't scaled. The moment more players join and the breakbar starts scaling up, soft CC becomes moot, because it doesn't scale up at all (as it stacks in duration, not intensity), and thus it becomes irrelevant.

    There are so few bosses that scale up that much. What's the problem with adjusting one's build for those few to add more hard CC?

    You're probably thinking about instanced bosses where we can adjust the group for them.

    Actually, I'm thinking about world bosses & map-wide metas, the topic of the thread.
    I didn't consider instanced fights at all, since that's something that players learn to do if that's part of their regular gameplay.

    For open world events like Matriarch, or Serpent's ire, it's impractical.

    How so? There aren't all that many of them where CC matters that much. And for those that do, commanders can (and do) alert people in advance. If it's me, I'll offer a few specific options about skills that folks can bring.

    Which Matriarch do you mean? In VB, it's never been a problem with large groups that I've seen.

    Most of the crowd won't adjust their builds for those no matter what we say.

    That's not been my experience. There's little adjustment when someone says, "bring CC." There's more when the commander takes a sentence or two to explain why.

    Serpent's Ire is a classic example of where people do adjust during well-organized runs.

    I think a much better example of the sort of thing you mean are the Destroyer Lieutenants in Draconis Mons. Although there are long pre-events before they spawn, I very rarely see anyone 'commanding' (just tags, at most). If even an extra 10-20% of people bring just one hard CC, the first break at 75% goes off without a hitch, and the rest of the fight goes well. (The second & third breaks are harder to achieve, but don't generally make or break, pardon the pun, the success of the group.)

    When I was in the map regularly, even when I didn't participate, if the event was coming up (and up through when people were rushing in), I'd post some copypasta that was something like, "breaking defiance speeds up the fight. When the blue bar appears, use a hard CC. Examples include mesmer moa, engie battering ram, ranger LB 4..." And in all but one case (when I was present to see results), that was enough. Hardly any effort on my part.

    And thus we arrive at a design inconsistency - we actually don't want more players at those events, because it's then harder to deal with breakbars.

    The topic of this thread is about soft CC being the best solution, not about breakbar scaling generally. I'd welcome a less restrictive thread that pointed out that breakbar scaling creates the perverse incentive of wanting fewer players at large group events. Changing soft CC isn't the only way to address that.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    The topic of this thread is about soft CC being the best solution, not about breakbar scaling generally. I'd welcome a less restrictive thread that pointed out that breakbar scaling creates the perverse incentive of wanting fewer players at large group events. Changing soft CC isn't the only way to address that.

    The topic of this thread is not about soft CC being the "best solution". It's specifically about the way soft CC does not scale properly which may very well be the cause of the "perverse incentive" of wanting fewer players at large group events. It certainly doesn't help when players who would have contributed simply by performing their damage rotation in solo/small group scenarios not only don't deal any meaningful breakbar damage, but also scale the breakbar up!

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

    When it comes to hard CC, the group could be made up of exactly one profession, one build of the profession even, and every character in the group can actually work to break the bar with the same exact hard CC skill if they use it all at once. Your explanation does not touch on that.

    Again: The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    No it couldn't if the bar regeneration exceeded the amount of cc available. Same goes for soft cc, a group of mesmers keeping slow ticking on the bar would cause it to break unless upscaled. The only difference is one removes chunks while the other simply depletes the bar over time. If you really think bars have 100% uptime on slow, immob, fear and taunt - I advise you to check next time you do a boss.

    Since all hard cc's are gated behind cooldowns indeed it does ask dor unique applications. Even more so often requiring several players in order to break. The reason is the same as in my first post: To avoid having any single player deplete it in 1 second, as that would lead to very fast and very non-engaging fights when there are alot of players present. So far I see no argument taking into account bar regeneration - if we ignore that, sure stacking soft cc's make sense.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

    When it comes to hard CC, the group could be made up of exactly one profession, one build of the profession even, and every character in the group can actually work to break the bar with the same exact hard CC skill if they use it all at once. Your explanation does not touch on that.

    Again: The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    No it couldn't if the bar regeneration exceeded the amount of cc available. Same goes for soft cc, a group of mesmers keeping slow ticking on the bar would cause it to break unless upscaled. The only difference is one removes chunks while the other simply depletes the bar over time. If you really think bars have 100% uptime on slow, immob, fear and taunt - I advise you to check next time you do a boss.

    Since all hard cc's are gated behind cooldowns indeed it does ask dor unique applications. Even more so often requiring several players in order to break. The reason is the same as in my first post: To avoid having any single player deplete it in 1 second, as that would lead to very fast and very non-engaging fights when there are alot of players present. So far I see no argument taking into account bar regeneration - if we ignore that, sure stacking soft cc's make sense.

    If a breakbar lasts 5 seconds and 1 mesmer uses a 5 second slow, it deals 250 damage over 5 seconds. However, if a second mesmer applies the same 5 second slow during that period, it adds 0 damage to the breakbar. Now consider the same scenario, but replace the 5s slow with a 3s stun. If only one mesmer is present, it deals 300 damage to the breakbar. If two mesmers are present, it deals 600 damage to the breakbar. Does this not clearly indicate that soft CC does not scale properly?

    Forget rare effects like fear/taunt that will never have full uptime. There is a huge amount of soft CC from effects like blind, chill, cripple, and weakness that have an impact in solo/small group but have virtually no impact in large groups due to this issue.

    And what does "bar regeneration" have to do with anything? I don't get it.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    Whether it's necessary or not, it's a fact that soft CC effects are useless for scaled up events, which is the main topic of this thread.

    Whether that can be solved may not be so trivial, as one must also consider the charging bar state when the boss is immune to CC application and thus soft CC could be wasted anyway (for instance, like in the suggestion above where newly applied CC causes the previous stack to apply its damage instantly). And there may be situations where we don't want that CC to be removed quickly (for traits that increase damage against crippled/chilled and so on foes).

    Simply scaling bar damage so the % bar deplete is always the same regardless of scale would have potentially the opposite effect, making soft CC very strong, I think. Though it would work if remaining duration were reduced proportionally, though that's the only solution I can think of.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2019

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Which Matriarch do you mean? In VB, it's never been a problem with large groups that I've seen.

    I have seen her bar broken only few times, and it was always when there was only a small number of players present. With a bigger group her breakbar phase always fails. It's not as big of a problem only because she can still be zerged over with enough dps, but it still massively extends the fight.

    Most of the crowd won't adjust their builds for those no matter what we say.

    That's not been my experience. There's little adjustment when someone says, "bring CC." There's more when the commander takes a sentence or two to explain why.

    Serpent's Ire is a classic example of where people do adjust during well-organized runs.

    That's because on well-organized runs most players present are part of that organized group, not random players that happened to be there as in less organized cases. That's pretty much a difference between statics and pugs - of course statics usually do better.

    I think a much better example of the sort of thing you mean are the Destroyer Lieutenants in Draconis Mons. Although there are long pre-events before they spawn, I very rarely see anyone 'commanding' (just tags, at most). If even an extra 10-20% of people bring just one hard CC, the first break at 75% goes off without a hitch, and the rest of the fight goes well. (The second & third breaks are harder to achieve, but don't generally make or break, pardon the pun, the success of the group.)

    When I was in the map regularly, even when I didn't participate, if the event was coming up (and up through when people were rushing in), I'd post some copypasta that was something like, "breaking defiance speeds up the fight. When the blue bar appears, use a hard CC. Examples include mesmer moa, engie battering ram, ranger LB 4..." And in all but one case (when I was present to see results), that was enough. Hardly any effort on my part.

    Are you in US? Because my experience from EU shows something completely different.

    And thus we arrive at a design inconsistency - we actually don't want more players at those events, because it's then harder to deal with breakbars.

    The topic of this thread is about soft CC being the best solution, not about breakbar scaling generally. I'd welcome a less restrictive thread that pointed out that breakbar scaling creates the perverse incentive of wanting fewer players at large group events. Changing soft CC isn't the only way to address that.

    Isn't, but soft cc is the main problem here. Hard cc "scales" pretty much alongside the breakbar, and so it's the soft cc not scaling that is the main reason of why small groups usually do better at breakbar phases than big ones. You don't want more players not because they will bring cc worse than what you already have, but because the breakbar will scale worse with a bigger group.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2019

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

    When it comes to hard CC, the group could be made up of exactly one profession, one build of the profession even, and every character in the group can actually work to break the bar with the same exact hard CC skill if they use it all at once. Your explanation does not touch on that.

    Again: The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    No it couldn't if the bar regeneration exceeded the amount of cc available. Same goes for soft cc, a group of mesmers keeping slow ticking on the bar would cause it to break unless upscaled. The only difference is one removes chunks while the other simply depletes the bar over time. If you really think bars have 100% uptime on slow, immob, fear and taunt - I advise you to check next time you do a boss.

    Since all hard cc's are gated behind cooldowns indeed it does ask dor unique applications. Even more so often requiring several players in order to break. The reason is the same as in my first post: To avoid having any single player deplete it in 1 second, as that would lead to very fast and very non-engaging fights when there are alot of players present. So far I see no argument taking into account bar regeneration - if we ignore that, sure stacking soft cc's make sense.

    If a breakbar lasts 5 seconds and 1 mesmer uses a 5 second slow, it deals 250 damage over 5 seconds. However, if a second mesmer applies the same 5 second slow during that period, it adds 0 damage to the breakbar. Now consider the same scenario, but replace the 5s slow with a 3s stun. If only one mesmer is present, it deals 300 damage to the breakbar. If two mesmers are present, it deals 600 damage to the breakbar. Does this not clearly indicate that soft CC does not scale properly?

    Forget rare effects like fear/taunt that will never have full uptime. There is a huge amount of soft CC from effects like blind, chill, cripple, and weakness that have an impact in solo/small group but have virtually no impact in large groups due to this issue.

    And what does "bar regeneration" have to do with anything? I don't get it.

    Let's assume you need 10 seconds to break your bar. What happens? That's right 2 mesmers using slow are actually able to break it since slow stacks in duration! Now what if they exclusively use their stuns? They only manage to break 60% of the same bar, having to wait out both their cooldowns (while the bar regenerates) meaning they will never break it. For the purposes of an upscale boss it should take way more than 5 seconds to break. In your example soft cc is stronger than hard cc which is how it should be when the boss is not upscaled, since it both hampers regen and damage the bar.

    I agree anything less than fear, taunt, slow and immob doesn't count for much (as the other condis run way more rampant than hard cc).

    With bar regeneration I mean the % of the bar that is regained per second if no soft cc is applied. Like I mentioned earlier this is what make soft cc very strong when the boss is not upscaled since it slows regen and at such a rate it also deals bar damage. But when upscaled most of the time that 1 soft cc isn't enough to hinder full regeneration and the boss starts to disable conditions on a random basis - this means when your 1 soft cc is disabled it's important that another type is applied so it can keep ticking until yours become available again. This is what I mean by unique conditions. As you already noted there are only 4 major contributing soft cc's which 1 person simply cannot keep 100% uptime on their own, requiring multiple professions present (which is what upscales the boss anyways) and the job of those applying soft cc now becomes to stall the bar from regeneration while those applying hard cc now have to break it (harder now since when not upscales soft cc also take a chunk of it, meaning more hard cc is needed to break the same bar.

    Just an example:

    • 1000 hp bar
    • 10 people
    • Everyone has one hard cc that does 100 damage
    • Bar regenerates 5% every second
    • Each profession take turns hitting every second

    This means 50 hp is gained every second, and a total of 100 damage is done. 100-50 = 50 damage to the bar every second if we add the cc damage and regen. After the 10 seconds are up you will have done 50×10= 500 damage to the bar, bringing it exactly 50% down.

    What soft cc does is remove those 5% that regenerates every second so that the same amount of hard cc actually can break it. If we add soft cc that does 50 damage in the example above, we get exactly a broken bar. Now what if the soft cc does 75 damage like the strong condis do? All of a sudden we do 125 (75-50=25+100) damage every second leading to 1250 total damage over 10 seconds. 1000/1250=0,8×100=80% of the time is needed, allowing you to break the bar after 8 seconds instead. Strong soft cc's are very important in order to break a bar fast, which usually is the case with more upscaled bosses where you only have specific windows to break it. While in downscaled, soft cc is still the better choice.

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

    When it comes to hard CC, the group could be made up of exactly one profession, one build of the profession even, and every character in the group can actually work to break the bar with the same exact hard CC skill if they use it all at once. Your explanation does not touch on that.

    Again: The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    No it couldn't if the bar regeneration exceeded the amount of cc available. Same goes for soft cc, a group of mesmers keeping slow ticking on the bar would cause it to break unless upscaled. The only difference is one removes chunks while the other simply depletes the bar over time. If you really think bars have 100% uptime on slow, immob, fear and taunt - I advise you to check next time you do a boss.

    Since all hard cc's are gated behind cooldowns indeed it does ask dor unique applications. Even more so often requiring several players in order to break. The reason is the same as in my first post: To avoid having any single player deplete it in 1 second, as that would lead to very fast and very non-engaging fights when there are alot of players present. So far I see no argument taking into account bar regeneration - if we ignore that, sure stacking soft cc's make sense.

    If a breakbar lasts 5 seconds and 1 mesmer uses a 5 second slow, it deals 250 damage over 5 seconds. However, if a second mesmer applies the same 5 second slow during that period, it adds 0 damage to the breakbar. Now consider the same scenario, but replace the 5s slow with a 3s stun. If only one mesmer is present, it deals 300 damage to the breakbar. If two mesmers are present, it deals 600 damage to the breakbar. Does this not clearly indicate that soft CC does not scale properly?

    Forget rare effects like fear/taunt that will never have full uptime. There is a huge amount of soft CC from effects like blind, chill, cripple, and weakness that have an impact in solo/small group but have virtually no impact in large groups due to this issue.

    And what does "bar regeneration" have to do with anything? I don't get it.

    Let's assume you need 10 seconds to break your bar. What happens? That's right 2 mesmers using slow are actually able to break it since slow stacks in duration! Now what if they exclusively use their stuns? They only manage to break 60% of the same bar, having to wait out both their cooldowns (while the bar regenerates) meaning they will never break it. For the purposes of an upscale boss it should take way more than 5 seconds to break. In your example soft cc is stronger than hard cc which is how it should be when the boss is not upscaled, since it both hampers regen and damage the bar.

    I agree anything less than fear, taunt, slow and immob doesn't count for much (as the other condis run way more rampant than hard cc).

    With bar regeneration I mean the % of the bar that is regained per second if no soft cc is applied. Like I mentioned earlier this is what make soft cc very strong when the boss is not upscaled since it slows regen and at such a rate it also deals bar damage. But when upscaled most of the time that 1 soft cc isn't enough to hinder full regeneration and the boss starts to disable conditions on a random basis - this means when your 1 soft cc is disabled it's important that another type is applied so it can keep ticking until yours become available again. This is what I mean by unique conditions. As you already noted there are only 4 major contributing soft cc's which 1 person simply cannot keep 100% uptime on their own, requiring multiple professions present (which is what upscales the boss anyways) and the job of those applying soft cc now becomes to stall the bar from regeneration while those applying hard cc now have to break it (harder now since when not upscales soft cc also take a chunk of it, meaning more hard cc is needed to break the same bar.

    Just an example:

    • 1000 hp bar
    • 10 people
    • Everyone has one hard cc that does 100 damage
    • Bar regenerates 5% every second
    • Each profession take turns hitting every second

    This means 50 hp is gained every second, and a total of 100 damage is done. 100-50 = 50 damage to the bar every second if we add the cc damage and regen. After the 10 seconds are up you will have done 50×10= 500 damage to the bar, bringing it exactly 50% down.

    What soft cc does is remove those 5% that regenerates every second so that the same amount of hard cc actually can break it. If we add soft cc that does 50 damage in the example above, we get exactly a broken bar. Now what if the soft cc does 75 damage like the strong condis do? All of a sudden we do 125 (75-50=25+100) damage every second leading to 1250 total damage over 10 seconds. 1000/1250=0,8×100=80% of the time is needed, allowing you to break the bar after 8 seconds instead. Strong soft cc's are very important in order to break a bar fast, which usually is the case with more upscaled bosses where you only have specific windows to break it. While in downscaled, soft cc is still the better choice.

    Are you saying that soft CC can stop the bar regeneration and do its bar damage unhindered? Or does soft CC do damage at the same time the bar regenerates and the difference between the values determines which way and how much the bar moves per tick? The two examples confuses the two effects. Top example says the CC ignores regeneration completely and gets to do damage unhindered over the CC duration. Bottom example says the CC is countering the value of regeneration and the difference determines the way the bar moves per tick.

    And I'm going to bring up that though hard CC skills have cooldowns, so do soft CC skills, and there's technically nothing stopping a group from using all their hard CC skills within a second if they all have the skills ready.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm not sure there's even a point in explaining it to you as you seem to be deliberately ignoring the issue. No matter how many seconds the breakbar lasts, there is a point at which further soft CC application is effectively worthless. This does not apply at all to solo play and increasingly becomes an issue the more players are present. It's as simple as that and I suspect you understand this very basic concept that demonstrates that soft CC does not scale properly. Why pretend otherwise?

    Bar regeneration is a non issue. It exists whether the bar is scaled up or not. It has no bearing on whether or not soft CC scales appropriately. Why even bring it up?

  • DaFishBob.6518DaFishBob.6518 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2019

    Well on topic, maybe break bars can be changed so that regeneration could be fully disabled when a soft CC is present, and when more are present, the bar becomes more vulnerable, but the trade off is that as the boss up-scales, it gains a reduction in soft CC condition duration? In addition to soft CC doing break bar damage over time I mean.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Debuffs used to be a rationale Anet used for justifying necro's lack of access to boons, and lo and behold chill, daze, weakness, blind, and cripple are all now made beyond worthless as a result of the breakbar implementation.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

    When it comes to hard CC, the group could be made up of exactly one profession, one build of the profession even, and every character in the group can actually work to break the bar with the same exact hard CC skill if they use it all at once. Your explanation does not touch on that.

    Again: The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    No it couldn't if the bar regeneration exceeded the amount of cc available. Same goes for soft cc, a group of mesmers keeping slow ticking on the bar would cause it to break unless upscaled. The only difference is one removes chunks while the other simply depletes the bar over time. If you really think bars have 100% uptime on slow, immob, fear and taunt - I advise you to check next time you do a boss.

    Since all hard cc's are gated behind cooldowns indeed it does ask dor unique applications. Even more so often requiring several players in order to break. The reason is the same as in my first post: To avoid having any single player deplete it in 1 second, as that would lead to very fast and very non-engaging fights when there are alot of players present. So far I see no argument taking into account bar regeneration - if we ignore that, sure stacking soft cc's make sense.

    If a breakbar lasts 5 seconds and 1 mesmer uses a 5 second slow, it deals 250 damage over 5 seconds. However, if a second mesmer applies the same 5 second slow during that period, it adds 0 damage to the breakbar. Now consider the same scenario, but replace the 5s slow with a 3s stun. If only one mesmer is present, it deals 300 damage to the breakbar. If two mesmers are present, it deals 600 damage to the breakbar. Does this not clearly indicate that soft CC does not scale properly?

    Forget rare effects like fear/taunt that will never have full uptime. There is a huge amount of soft CC from effects like blind, chill, cripple, and weakness that have an impact in solo/small group but have virtually no impact in large groups due to this issue.

    And what does "bar regeneration" have to do with anything? I don't get it.

    Let's assume you need 10 seconds to break your bar. What happens? That's right 2 mesmers using slow are actually able to break it since slow stacks in duration! Now what if they exclusively use their stuns? They only manage to break 60% of the same bar, having to wait out both their cooldowns (while the bar regenerates) meaning they will never break it. For the purposes of an upscale boss it should take way more than 5 seconds to break. In your example soft cc is stronger than hard cc which is how it should be when the boss is not upscaled, since it both hampers regen and damage the bar.

    I agree anything less than fear, taunt, slow and immob doesn't count for much (as the other condis run way more rampant than hard cc).

    With bar regeneration I mean the % of the bar that is regained per second if no soft cc is applied. Like I mentioned earlier this is what make soft cc very strong when the boss is not upscaled since it slows regen and at such a rate it also deals bar damage. But when upscaled most of the time that 1 soft cc isn't enough to hinder full regeneration and the boss starts to disable conditions on a random basis - this means when your 1 soft cc is disabled it's important that another type is applied so it can keep ticking until yours become available again. This is what I mean by unique conditions. As you already noted there are only 4 major contributing soft cc's which 1 person simply cannot keep 100% uptime on their own, requiring multiple professions present (which is what upscales the boss anyways) and the job of those applying soft cc now becomes to stall the bar from regeneration while those applying hard cc now have to break it (harder now since when not upscales soft cc also take a chunk of it, meaning more hard cc is needed to break the same bar.

    Just an example:

    • 1000 hp bar
    • 10 people
    • Everyone has one hard cc that does 100 damage
    • Bar regenerates 5% every second
    • Each profession take turns hitting every second

    This means 50 hp is gained every second, and a total of 100 damage is done. 100-50 = 50 damage to the bar every second if we add the cc damage and regen. After the 10 seconds are up you will have done 50×10= 500 damage to the bar, bringing it exactly 50% down.

    What soft cc does is remove those 5% that regenerates every second so that the same amount of hard cc actually can break it. If we add soft cc that does 50 damage in the example above, we get exactly a broken bar. Now what if the soft cc does 75 damage like the strong condis do? All of a sudden we do 125 (75-50=25+100) damage every second leading to 1250 total damage over 10 seconds. 1000/1250=0,8×100=80% of the time is needed, allowing you to break the bar after 8 seconds instead. Strong soft cc's are very important in order to break a bar fast, which usually is the case with more upscaled bosses where you only have specific windows to break it. While in downscaled, soft cc is still the better choice.

    Are you saying that soft CC can stop the bar regeneration and do its bar damage unhindered? Or does soft CC do damage at the same time the bar regenerates and the difference between the values determines which way and how much the bar moves per tick? The two examples confuses the two effects. Top example says the CC ignores regeneration completely and gets to do damage unhindered over the CC duration. Bottom example says the CC is countering the value of regeneration and the difference determines the way the bar moves per tick.

    And I'm going to bring up that though hard CC skills have cooldowns, so do soft CC skills, and there's technically nothing stopping a group from using all their hard CC skills within a second if they all have the skills ready.

    I'm saying soft cc purely degenerates the bar. If the rate exceeds that of the regen, it does bar damage for the the amount it exceeds.

    Hard cc, assuming it lasts 1 second (like daze) does ignore bar regeneration by being instant. The longer durations allow it to function like a stronger effect of soft cc. The issue arises when bar regeneration exceeds the amount of active soft cc (upscaled) and hard cc is a requirement to break it.

    As for your last point soft conditions, even the strong ones, tend to have longer duration and a smaller cd than most generic hard cc. So while soft cc gets to work well into your cd, hard cc doesn't get that luxury.

    Thing is if the boss is upscaled the effect of any hard cc is equal to bar-damage × (1-(regen rate/100)) without soft cc present. The higher the regen the less effective hard cc gets. Which makes soft cc uptime (unique ones) a requirement to break the bar if sufficiently upscaled.

    It's all about keeping uptimes and diversity in soft cc for it to be effective, resulting in faster breaks and less hard cc required in order to do that.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:
    Well on topic, maybe break bars can be changed so that regeneration could be fully disabled when a soft CC is present, and when more are present, the bar becomes more vulnerable, but the trade off is that as the boss up-scales, it gains a reduction in soft CC condition duration? In addition to soft CC doing break bar damage over time I mean.

    This could work. Maybe soft CC should not have a fixed bar damage / time value to them, but a percentage wise. Like, one condition -33% bar regeneration, 2 for -66%, 3 negate it and 4+ would cause it to diminish at similar rates. Though this means that soft CC becomes weaker for small groups, on large groups the effect can be seen as constant.

    A champion will normally have 100% cripple, chill, blind, and weakness, so the values can be adjusted for a baseline of four soft CCs. The rest? Immobilize, slow, fear and taunt are generally not spammed, so they can be inflicted on-demand when the bar becomes vulnerable, thus having a similar effect (and viability) as hard CCs.

    It may not even be needed to have the boss gain condition duration reductions if these values are adjusted just right.

    In other words (values can be adjusted for balance):
    soft CC Conditions / bar regeneration speed
    0 100%
    1 66%
    2 33%
    3 0%
    4 -33%
    5 -66%
    6 -100%
    7 -133%
    8 -166%

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

    When it comes to hard CC, the group could be made up of exactly one profession, one build of the profession even, and every character in the group can actually work to break the bar with the same exact hard CC skill if they use it all at once. Your explanation does not touch on that.

    Again: The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    No it couldn't if the bar regeneration exceeded the amount of cc available. Same goes for soft cc, a group of mesmers keeping slow ticking on the bar would cause it to break unless upscaled. The only difference is one removes chunks while the other simply depletes the bar over time. If you really think bars have 100% uptime on slow, immob, fear and taunt - I advise you to check next time you do a boss.

    Since all hard cc's are gated behind cooldowns indeed it does ask dor unique applications. Even more so often requiring several players in order to break. The reason is the same as in my first post: To avoid having any single player deplete it in 1 second, as that would lead to very fast and very non-engaging fights when there are alot of players present. So far I see no argument taking into account bar regeneration - if we ignore that, sure stacking soft cc's make sense.

    If a breakbar lasts 5 seconds and 1 mesmer uses a 5 second slow, it deals 250 damage over 5 seconds. However, if a second mesmer applies the same 5 second slow during that period, it adds 0 damage to the breakbar. Now consider the same scenario, but replace the 5s slow with a 3s stun. If only one mesmer is present, it deals 300 damage to the breakbar. If two mesmers are present, it deals 600 damage to the breakbar. Does this not clearly indicate that soft CC does not scale properly?

    Forget rare effects like fear/taunt that will never have full uptime. There is a huge amount of soft CC from effects like blind, chill, cripple, and weakness that have an impact in solo/small group but have virtually no impact in large groups due to this issue.

    And what does "bar regeneration" have to do with anything? I don't get it.

    Let's assume you need 10 seconds to break your bar. What happens? That's right 2 mesmers using slow are actually able to break it since slow stacks in duration! Now what if they exclusively use their stuns? They only manage to break 60% of the same bar, having to wait out both their cooldowns (while the bar regenerates) meaning they will never break it. For the purposes of an upscale boss it should take way more than 5 seconds to break. In your example soft cc is stronger than hard cc which is how it should be when the boss is not upscaled, since it both hampers regen and damage the bar.

    I agree anything less than fear, taunt, slow and immob doesn't count for much (as the other condis run way more rampant than hard cc).

    With bar regeneration I mean the % of the bar that is regained per second if no soft cc is applied. Like I mentioned earlier this is what make soft cc very strong when the boss is not upscaled since it slows regen and at such a rate it also deals bar damage. But when upscaled most of the time that 1 soft cc isn't enough to hinder full regeneration and the boss starts to disable conditions on a random basis - this means when your 1 soft cc is disabled it's important that another type is applied so it can keep ticking until yours become available again. This is what I mean by unique conditions. As you already noted there are only 4 major contributing soft cc's which 1 person simply cannot keep 100% uptime on their own, requiring multiple professions present (which is what upscales the boss anyways) and the job of those applying soft cc now becomes to stall the bar from regeneration while those applying hard cc now have to break it (harder now since when not upscales soft cc also take a chunk of it, meaning more hard cc is needed to break the same bar.

    Just an example:

    • 1000 hp bar
    • 10 people
    • Everyone has one hard cc that does 100 damage
    • Bar regenerates 5% every second
    • Each profession take turns hitting every second

    This means 50 hp is gained every second, and a total of 100 damage is done. 100-50 = 50 damage to the bar every second if we add the cc damage and regen. After the 10 seconds are up you will have done 50×10= 500 damage to the bar, bringing it exactly 50% down.

    What soft cc does is remove those 5% that regenerates every second so that the same amount of hard cc actually can break it. If we add soft cc that does 50 damage in the example above, we get exactly a broken bar. Now what if the soft cc does 75 damage like the strong condis do? All of a sudden we do 125 (75-50=25+100) damage every second leading to 1250 total damage over 10 seconds. 1000/1250=0,8×100=80% of the time is needed, allowing you to break the bar after 8 seconds instead. Strong soft cc's are very important in order to break a bar fast, which usually is the case with more upscaled bosses where you only have specific windows to break it. While in downscaled, soft cc is still the better choice.

    Are you saying that soft CC can stop the bar regeneration and do its bar damage unhindered? Or does soft CC do damage at the same time the bar regenerates and the difference between the values determines which way and how much the bar moves per tick? The two examples confuses the two effects. Top example says the CC ignores regeneration completely and gets to do damage unhindered over the CC duration. Bottom example says the CC is countering the value of regeneration and the difference determines the way the bar moves per tick.

    And I'm going to bring up that though hard CC skills have cooldowns, so do soft CC skills, and there's technically nothing stopping a group from using all their hard CC skills within a second if they all have the skills ready.

    I'm saying soft cc purely degenerates the bar. If the rate exceeds that of the regen, it does bar damage for the the amount it exceeds.

    Hard cc, assuming it lasts 1 second (like daze) does ignore bar regeneration by being instant. The longer durations allow it to function like a stronger effect of soft cc. The issue arises when bar regeneration exceeds the amount of active soft cc (upscaled) and hard cc is a requirement to break it.

    As for your last point soft conditions, even the strong ones, tend to have longer duration and a smaller cd than most generic hard cc. So while soft cc gets to work well into your cd, hard cc doesn't get that luxury.

    Thing is if the boss is upscaled the effect of any hard cc is equal to bar-damage × (1-(regen rate/100)) without soft cc present. The higher the regen the less effective hard cc gets. Which makes soft cc uptime (unique ones) a requirement to break the bar if sufficiently upscaled.

    It's all about keeping uptimes and diversity in soft cc for it to be effective, resulting in faster breaks and less hard cc required in order to do that.

    None of which is relevant to the point of this thread, which is that soft CC does not scale properly because it does not stack intensity, effectively capping it at a maximum of its base effect per second (e.g. 50/s for slow, etc.). When a solo player applies this effect it deals 50/s. When the bar is scaled up for 50 players, it still applies only 50/s and can never apply more than that.

    Anyway, the point has been made several times over. If you don't understand it by now, there's no point in further discussion. Have a nice day!

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    Soft cc could be made to upgrade hard cc like the warrior's hammer. Backbreaker is upgraded by having the target weakened. This could lead to some cool combos.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It would be more interesting if they adjusted some soft CCs so they did something special in regard to break phases while effective, but scale down the duration of applications based on the boss scale, starting at 20% of a normal application's duration and going down from there.

    Like, Slow lengthens the break phase by up to 20%. Blind does BB damage like a hard CC, when the boss attacks. Weak makes the boss take extra hard CC damage. Chill slows BB regen by 66%. Etc.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    It would be more interesting if they adjusted some soft CCs so they did something special in regard to break phases while effective, but scale down the duration of applications based on the boss scale, starting at 20% of a normal application's duration and going down from there.

    Like, Slow lengthens the break phase by up to 20%. Blind does BB damage like a hard CC, when the boss attacks. Weak makes the boss take extra hard CC damage. Chill slows BB regen by 66%. Etc.

    It sounds good, but what you really want is for breakbar damage to scale appropriately to the breakbar. These types of changes could achieve that by coincidence, but that isn't really what they're intended to do. The likely result would either be to introduce the opposite effect (i.e. all soft CC conditions are assumed to be present, thus solo/small group is at a disadvantage) or to trivialize breakbars (e.g. giving an extra X amount of seconds to break a bar that was specifically designed to give only a small window of opportunity, etc.).

    I'm not saying it couldn't work, but the cure could potentially be more problematic than the disease in this case.

  • rng.1024rng.1024 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @DaFishBob.6518 said:

    @rng.1024 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:

    @rng.1024 said:
    I don't get the issue. Soft cc isn't meant to break any bar, it's there to prevent bar regeneration - meaning less hard cc is needed in order to break it. This is why it doesn't matter whether it scales or stacks in intensity. It seems intended that on lesser bosses soft cc can be degenerative in order to enhance explorative play.

    That really depends on the CC. Immobilize, slow, fear, and taunt actually deal quite significant amounts of breakbar damage, especially if you're playing a build with a lot of increased condi duration. For instance, I often use arcane thievery for the CC (Slow) when I'm playing my condi mirage because it can deal up to 400 breakbar damage - equivalent to 4 seconds of stun! I think it's a legitimate question to ask why such a strong CC is essentially worthless when many other players are present fighting a boss.

    They do exactly the same damage whether scaled or not. But the % of damage differ since now the boss has more hitpoints and more rapid regeneration. Whenever a boss scales like this it's assumes different professions are present, requiring more unique conditions in order to reach the same rate of degeneration. Not to mention conditions are disabled randomly. Why is your condition worthless? Basically it's a question of how scaled bosses bar regeneration outperforms your damaging soft cc's rate of degeneration. How is that any different from the group not bringing enough hard cc to break it? We can't start giving everyone the power to insta break any breakbar, and expect it's working when 100 people are doing the same. At some point the mechanic has to exceed the individual player in order for it to work - and they chose to do that by rewarding unique applications of conditions. If more professions use their powerful soft cc like you then the effect will be exactly the same as when not scaled, since the random disable require uptime on different condis in order to keep the bar from regenerating.

    The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    Yes, because access to cc's are distributed among professions. Which means some professions can bring way more hard cc than others. Some hard cc lasts longer, some shorter. Some cc effects do little breakbar damage, some do more. As the boss scales the % of total damage also decreases on hard cc since more is required to break the bar. Access to hard cc is way more unique than access to soft cc. The reason is to not allow everyone to oneshot the bar with their hard cc skill, again because when scaled up it assumes more professions are present and therefore that they can bring a wider range of cc.

    When it comes to hard CC, the group could be made up of exactly one profession, one build of the profession even, and every character in the group can actually work to break the bar with the same exact hard CC skill if they use it all at once. Your explanation does not touch on that.

    Again: The game doesn't ask for unique applications of hard CC to do breakbar damage. Could you explain that inconsistency? Is there a good reason for that inconsistency?

    No it couldn't if the bar regeneration exceeded the amount of cc available. Same goes for soft cc, a group of mesmers keeping slow ticking on the bar would cause it to break unless upscaled. The only difference is one removes chunks while the other simply depletes the bar over time. If you really think bars have 100% uptime on slow, immob, fear and taunt - I advise you to check next time you do a boss.

    Since all hard cc's are gated behind cooldowns indeed it does ask dor unique applications. Even more so often requiring several players in order to break. The reason is the same as in my first post: To avoid having any single player deplete it in 1 second, as that would lead to very fast and very non-engaging fights when there are alot of players present. So far I see no argument taking into account bar regeneration - if we ignore that, sure stacking soft cc's make sense.

    If a breakbar lasts 5 seconds and 1 mesmer uses a 5 second slow, it deals 250 damage over 5 seconds. However, if a second mesmer applies the same 5 second slow during that period, it adds 0 damage to the breakbar. Now consider the same scenario, but replace the 5s slow with a 3s stun. If only one mesmer is present, it deals 300 damage to the breakbar. If two mesmers are present, it deals 600 damage to the breakbar. Does this not clearly indicate that soft CC does not scale properly?

    Forget rare effects like fear/taunt that will never have full uptime. There is a huge amount of soft CC from effects like blind, chill, cripple, and weakness that have an impact in solo/small group but have virtually no impact in large groups due to this issue.

    And what does "bar regeneration" have to do with anything? I don't get it.

    Let's assume you need 10 seconds to break your bar. What happens? That's right 2 mesmers using slow are actually able to break it since slow stacks in duration! Now what if they exclusively use their stuns? They only manage to break 60% of the same bar, having to wait out both their cooldowns (while the bar regenerates) meaning they will never break it. For the purposes of an upscale boss it should take way more than 5 seconds to break. In your example soft cc is stronger than hard cc which is how it should be when the boss is not upscaled, since it both hampers regen and damage the bar.

    I agree anything less than fear, taunt, slow and immob doesn't count for much (as the other condis run way more rampant than hard cc).

    With bar regeneration I mean the % of the bar that is regained per second if no soft cc is applied. Like I mentioned earlier this is what make soft cc very strong when the boss is not upscaled since it slows regen and at such a rate it also deals bar damage. But when upscaled most of the time that 1 soft cc isn't enough to hinder full regeneration and the boss starts to disable conditions on a random basis - this means when your 1 soft cc is disabled it's important that another type is applied so it can keep ticking until yours become available again. This is what I mean by unique conditions. As you already noted there are only 4 major contributing soft cc's which 1 person simply cannot keep 100% uptime on their own, requiring multiple professions present (which is what upscales the boss anyways) and the job of those applying soft cc now becomes to stall the bar from regeneration while those applying hard cc now have to break it (harder now since when not upscales soft cc also take a chunk of it, meaning more hard cc is needed to break the same bar.

    Just an example:

    • 1000 hp bar
    • 10 people
    • Everyone has one hard cc that does 100 damage
    • Bar regenerates 5% every second
    • Each profession take turns hitting every second

    This means 50 hp is gained every second, and a total of 100 damage is done. 100-50 = 50 damage to the bar every second if we add the cc damage and regen. After the 10 seconds are up you will have done 50×10= 500 damage to the bar, bringing it exactly 50% down.

    What soft cc does is remove those 5% that regenerates every second so that the same amount of hard cc actually can break it. If we add soft cc that does 50 damage in the example above, we get exactly a broken bar. Now what if the soft cc does 75 damage like the strong condis do? All of a sudden we do 125 (75-50=25+100) damage every second leading to 1250 total damage over 10 seconds. 1000/1250=0,8×100=80% of the time is needed, allowing you to break the bar after 8 seconds instead. Strong soft cc's are very important in order to break a bar fast, which usually is the case with more upscaled bosses where you only have specific windows to break it. While in downscaled, soft cc is still the better choice.

    Are you saying that soft CC can stop the bar regeneration and do its bar damage unhindered? Or does soft CC do damage at the same time the bar regenerates and the difference between the values determines which way and how much the bar moves per tick? The two examples confuses the two effects. Top example says the CC ignores regeneration completely and gets to do damage unhindered over the CC duration. Bottom example says the CC is countering the value of regeneration and the difference determines the way the bar moves per tick.

    And I'm going to bring up that though hard CC skills have cooldowns, so do soft CC skills, and there's technically nothing stopping a group from using all their hard CC skills within a second if they all have the skills ready.

    I'm saying soft cc purely degenerates the bar. If the rate exceeds that of the regen, it does bar damage for the the amount it exceeds.

    Hard cc, assuming it lasts 1 second (like daze) does ignore bar regeneration by being instant. The longer durations allow it to function like a stronger effect of soft cc. The issue arises when bar regeneration exceeds the amount of active soft cc (upscaled) and hard cc is a requirement to break it.

    As for your last point soft conditions, even the strong ones, tend to have longer duration and a smaller cd than most generic hard cc. So while soft cc gets to work well into your cd, hard cc doesn't get that luxury.

    Thing is if the boss is upscaled the effect of any hard cc is equal to bar-damage × (1-(regen rate/100)) without soft cc present. The higher the regen the less effective hard cc gets. Which makes soft cc uptime (unique ones) a requirement to break the bar if sufficiently upscaled.

    It's all about keeping uptimes and diversity in soft cc for it to be effective, resulting in faster breaks and less hard cc required in order to do that.

    None of which is relevant to the point of this thread, which is that soft CC does not scale properly because it does not stack intensity, effectively capping it at a maximum of its base effect per second (e.g. 50/s for slow, etc.). When a solo player applies this effect it deals 50/s. When the bar is scaled up for 50 players, it still applies only 50/s and can never apply more than that.

    Anyway, the point has been made several times over. If you don't understand it by now, there's no point in further discussion. Have a nice day!

    Soft cc's are randomly disabled. This means you need different types in order to constantly do anything to the bar. These different types are spread among several professions. One profession cannot have a 100% uptime on any of them on their own. This means your applied condition won't work immideately, but when the previous duration runs out. If your argument then is "what if you cap out on duration stack?" it's no different than discussing how hard cc do nothing after the bar is broken. You all want soft cc to do instant damage to the bar because you feel it's useless, not even once taking into account that the bar is regenerating and that this is the **role of soft cc **when a boss is upscaled. I say instant because if we start stacking soft cc the bar will be gone in the blink of an eye.

    If you don't feel like arguing your view that's totally up to you. Wish you a pleasant day aswell regardless :)

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    @rng.1024 said:
    Soft cc's are randomly disabled. This means you need different types in order to constantly do anything to the bar. These different types are spread among several professions. One profession cannot have a 100% uptime on any of them on their own.

    ...you really have no idea. There are professions that can easily achieve 100% uptime on some soft cc's (chill, cripple and weakness). Near perfect immobilize uptime from a single player is also possible, although it requires specifically traiting for it. So, of the common CCs we have only slow left, and even here we can arrive at quite high uptimes on single characters (chronos are really good for that). Full 100% uptime on all of those together (and thus effectiveness cap from them) is achieved well before you reach high zerg numbers. Breakbar however does continue to scale beyond that point.

    If your argument then is "what if you cap out on duration stack?" it's no different than discussing how hard cc do nothing after the bar is broken.

    Soft cc does exactly as badly after the bar is broken as hard cc. It's what happens before that point that matters. The situation we're talking now is more like as if, for example, Berserker's headbutt could do breakbar damage only once per 20 seconds (and any additional headbutts used in that time from other warriors would have no effect). Or if there was a hard cap of how much breakbar damage whole group could do from each type of hard cc (so, pull, push, knockdown etc) to a boss in a given time.

    Since each hard cc is worth 100 x (effect time in seconds) of breakbar damage, let's say a hard cap of 100 per second for each effect type. Regardless of the number of sources. 10 warriors use headbutt at the same time? One deals 300 damage, but the other 9 (as well as anyone trying to use stun-based hard cc within 3 seconds) deal 0.
    That is soft cc now.

    You all want soft cc to do instant damage to the bar because you feel it's useless, not even once taking into account that the bar is regenerating and that this is the **role of soft cc **when a boss is upscaled.

    ...It's a role that 3-5 people out of that 50-man squad can cover easily. Anything beyond that is completely wasted. Unlike hard cc's that can always contribute, no matter how many other players of the same class/build are already present in the squad.

    I say instant because if we start stacking soft cc the bar will be gone in the blink of an eye.

    Because that's what happens at low player numbers. Right.[/sarcasm]

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Two thoughts on that.
    1. Make bosses vary in soft-CC tactics that actually work. Allow cripple-kiting or weakness-blunting. If the boss is immune to a soft CC, let it still go to the Defiance bar.
    2. Change soft-CC so it's a percentage of the bar per second, instead of a flat rate which quickly gets dwarfed by population size. 3%/sec for each (rough, off the cuff estimate) would do fairly well in most circumstances.

    Also, Weakness doesn't do much in general to most mobs, since stamina regen isn't a thing for them. It'd be nice to have it affect Defiance by slowing its regen rate and speeding up its orange phase.

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