So... If the Human Gods are just superpowered entities, who/what are the real Creators? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

So... If the Human Gods are just superpowered entities, who/what are the real Creators?

Lucas.3718Lucas.3718 Member ✭✭

I started to think about it, when playing my mesmer and thought to myself: Is there an acuall god of time, or someone who keeps the primordial singularities (Time, Space, Reality, Existence etc) in check ? Something we call an omnipotent god or something like a conciousness like that.

Comments

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2018

    I don't think so. I would expect The All is the closest we have observed to touch on this, but even in game we are only aware of a tiny proportion of it
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

    We did however, establish in the thread a few down on the subject that it def wasn't He-Man

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • I guess it's the same as our world. We can only speculate.

    What we do know is that Tyria is part of a multiverse that is connected via the mists. The human gods are from some place that isn't Tyria and brought the human species with them. Whether this multiverse was create by someone, where this someone came from, who created the place where he came from or where that someone came from is all unknown.

    No skin should be exclusive to gem-store rng boxes.
    What really happened with mount skins

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2018

    Yes, in a manner of speaking. It's called The Mists.

    Before there were humans or dwarves, before there were even worlds or the stars that light the night sky, there was but one thing in the universe—the Mists. The Mists touch all things. They are what binds the universe together, past present, and future. They are the source of all good and evil, of all matter and knowledge. It is said that all forms of life, no matter how simple or complex, can trace their origins back to this one place.

    The Mists constantly creates new things - both original things as well as (sometimes imperfect) copies of pre-existing things - and it is the origin of everything. It's the equivalent of a perpetual Big Bang, basically.

    It isn't sentient (nor sapient), however, so it isn't a "god" but it would be the closest thing to the Abrahamic God in the GWverse, just remove any personality, form, and communication from Yehweh and you basically got The Mists.

    The Mists is effectively the combination of 1) mist-looking protomatter (the source of the name, in fact) which is perpetually creating new things (from fractals to words to living beings to souls), 2) the equivalent of outer space / the space that exists between worlds and realms (The Rift acting as a hub for this kind of travel), 3) various afterlife realms like the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, etc.

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2018
    #IFNDEF MULTIVERSE_H
    #DEFINE MULTIVERSE_H
    

    But jokes aside, from the Perspective of Tyria we couldn't really see into the depths of the Mists, and we have so far been unable to check out the other universes attached to the Mists, aside from the World vs. World potential parallel Tyrias, that were created to hold all the possible outcomes of Tyria, as well as all the possible Commanders.
    There may be some entity, or entities, who created all of that, and on a meta level we can point our fingers at Arenanet as the creator of the GW universe, but that is not a satisfactory answer from a narrative perspective.
    And I don't think it's likely that we will get an answer to this question anytime soon, as there is so much unexplored surface on Tyria, not to mention that in the Trailer it looks like Kralkatorrik may be coming out of the Mists to fight us.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 27, 2018

    It's something that tickles the curiosity of mankind since the beginning of time, we already want to believe there's a higher being that created us humans

    but what created those higher beings?


    even from science's perspective, the consensus is the universe began with the big bang, but that's just a theory
    and what came before it and the catalyst that made the big bang to happen (if indeed happened) is unknown

    @Stephen Hawking
    "Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them."



    so really there is no point of asking because it will always be unexplained by anet's writers
    if they answer 1, more questions will pop-up by the community to explain more

    so it's more logical to question the things that had happened in the background since the arrival of the gods, anything prior to arrival we should just treat them as they are base on the info anet gave, no more no less, unless they want to throw more in to explain the current events

    :)

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • why does there even need to be a creator?

    random fluctuations... all you need. Gods? just beings a tiny bit more powerful than other beings. Done.

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    why does there even need to be a creator?

    random fluctuations... all you need. Gods? just beings a tiny bit more powerful than other beings. Done.

    Well this is a pretty Psychological and philosophical issue.
    From reading this thread we can assume that a whole bunch of People WANTS a true god Fitting their Imagination exist and some even NEED to believe in this existence

    the psychological aspect of this would be "why" are they yearning so much for an omnipotent and omnicient god?

  • Imba.9451Imba.9451 Member ✭✭✭

    I actually like it the way it is.
    Expanding upon this topic in the lore would create a WoW scenario, wich elevated the story from simply Orcs vs Humans into "The planet is just a giant space egg for some space god"-scheme.
    Every story can only go so far before it becomes "too much". And bringing up a creator in the GW2 lore would simply take away from all the conflicts that have happened.

  • @norbes.3620 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    why does there even need to be a creator?

    random fluctuations... all you need. Gods? just beings a tiny bit more powerful than other beings. Done.

    Well this is a pretty Psychological and philosophical issue.
    From reading this thread we can assume that a whole bunch of People WANTS a true god Fitting their Imagination exist and some even NEED to believe in this existence

    the psychological aspect of this would be "why" are they yearning so much for an omnipotent and omnicient god?

    Well, maybe the People want to know their purpose? The reason they exist?
    Because, you know, you cannot set your reason for existence before you are born. So, without a GOD we have no reason and no purpose to exist.
    And the existence without a reason is a nonsense (in my opinion).

  • The existence of a Creator God requires the solution to a rather troubling philosophical/ontological paradox called infinite regress or "Turtles All the Way Down". Basically, if you have a god who created the multiverse, who or what created that god? If something or some greater god created that lesser creator god, then who or what created the greater god? And so on. The solution I like best is that the Creator God is self-sustaining, that is, It requires no causality for Its existence (unlike everything we see in the universe with the debatably possible exception of the universe itself). Really you either have to have an eternal God or an eternal universe for cosmogenesis to occur. There's no other way to do it.

    As a Christian, I'm naturally biased to believe that a world that created itself is a cosmological fallacy. It's much easier for me to believe that a sentient God created a clearly non-sentient universe than that a non-sentient universe created everything we see in Tyria (which is also somewhat disparaging of the Anet team's creative abilities). That being said, I recognize that Anet would want to keep this particularly sticky ground as neutral as possible, and that neutrality would demand a more Greek view of the world, formed out of Chaos by natural processes (I would also argue that in doing so they are not being neutral at all, but that's another conversation entirely).

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    why does there even need to be a creator?

    random fluctuations... all you need. Gods? just beings a tiny bit more powerful than other beings. Done.

    Well this is a pretty Psychological and philosophical issue.
    From reading this thread we can assume that a whole bunch of People WANTS a true god Fitting their Imagination exist and some even NEED to believe in this existence

    the psychological aspect of this would be "why" are they yearning so much for an omnipotent and omnicient god?

    Well, maybe the People want to know their purpose? The reason they exist?
    Because, you know, you cannot set your reason for existence before you are born. So, without a GOD we have no reason and no purpose to exist.
    And the existence without a reason is a nonsense (in my opinion).

    U sure that there is such a Purpose in life? In a game ofcourse u can always make it that way if u are a developer and a lot of People are determined to believe in the existance of a god that created them but there is no proof. thats the fundamental Problem in Religion: It's about the things that the individuals believe and not about things that are necessarily the truth.

    ofcourse there are People who are looking for their purpose in life and cant find it so they turn their gaze toward a "universe" thats not as complex as our reality, the one inside a game. so ultimately if those People wanna find their answer, here it is: Arenanets employees are the gods of the tyrian multiverse. they created it all.

    ofcourse thats not satisfying and robs the delusion but thats the ultimate truth. and if u can accept it, u can easily accept minor deitys who got lots of power but are not omnipotent like the Six Gods

    Religion is always a problematic Topic because most cant discuss it without involving their own believings. This can be magnificently seen in this thread. The Problem with that is, that the ingame concept of god is not necessarily the concept the People playing the game use in their daylie life

  • What if there were a real world— realer than this one? A higher order, so to speak.

    Basically Anet are the real gods of Tyria and the GW universe. But that's not a strong narrative point so that has to stay a mystery and The Mists fits that well. Still, it'd be cool to see outer space and the planet Tyria as a whole from it.

  • @norbes.3620 said:

    U sure that there is such a Purpose in life? In a game ofcourse u can always make it that way if u are a developer and a lot of People are determined to believe in the existance of a god that created them but there is no proof. thats the fundamental Problem in Religion: It's about the things that the individuals believe and not about things that are necessarily the truth.

    ofcourse there are People who are looking for their purpose in life and cant find it so they turn their gaze toward a "universe" thats not as complex as our reality, the one inside a game. so ultimately if those People wanna find their answer, here it is: Arenanets employees are the gods of the tyrian multiverse. they created it all.

    ofcourse thats not satisfying and robs the delusion but thats the ultimate truth. and if u can accept it, u can easily accept minor deitys who got lots of power but are not omnipotent like the Six Gods

    Religion is always a problematic Topic because most cant discuss it without involving their own believings. This can be magnificently seen in this thread. The Problem with that is, that the ingame concept of god is not necessarily the concept the People playing the game use in their daylie life

    Well, from your words I presume you think that is no reason for life to exist and it has no purpose. But you are contradicted by the reality - even if you consider that the life has no reason to exist, it exists. For me (that is only an opinion) the simple fact that the life exists (and we, the humans included) is more than enough to think that it has a purpose too.

    LOOOL !! "Arenanets employees are the gods of the tyrian multiverse. they created it all". Stop mocking the ANet workers, and please stop making jokes about them =).
    Because if you look at the image they give us about the six you can see that the six are: unwise (to not use a heavier word), cowards, mortals, weak, making mistakes, sometimes irrationals etc. This is how ANet workers are? Like the six?

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's nothing so in depth about a creation process.

    The gods themselves are not exactly gods either.. they're all born and they can all die.. and there are more of their race/races that are not ranked among the divines.

    We know that Grenth is the Son of Dwayna.. and before Grenth there was Dhuum.
    We also know that when Balthazar first stepped onto Tyria he was carrying the severed head of his father.. we also know Balthazar has a half brother called Menzies suggesting that he still has a mother out there who has had two children by two different fathers or his father did via two different mothers.
    We also know that it's possible for a human to ascend to Godhood as well since Kormir did it which also throws a lot of questions out there.. Are the Gods all humans? or are they something else entirely?
    We do know that they originate from somehwere in the mists and so do humans but there is very.. very little information about where specifically they both came from.

  • @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    LOOOL !! "Arenanets employees are the gods of the tyrian multiverse. they created it all". Stop mocking the ANet workers, and please stop making jokes about them =).

    Reading a bit much into that, aren't you? No ones mocking Anet for creating the GW universe.

    Because if you look at the image they give us about the six you can see that the six are: unwise (to not use a heavier word), cowards, mortals, weak, making mistakes, sometimes irrationals etc. This is how ANet workers are? Like the six?

    Anet != The Six. You also sell the human gods rather short.

    A fallen god stripped of his divinity and powering himself on a bloodstone and a bit of dragon energy literally killed the PC and we only returned due to the benevolence of another human gods custodian (Grenth/The Judge).

    That's even more telling if you don't play a human character. The pantheon of another race having both killed you and having returned you to life.

  • Kumouta.4985Kumouta.4985 Member ✭✭✭

    what ur describing sounds like A.R.E.N.A

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2019

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    the six are: unwise (to not use a heavier word), cowards, mortals, weak, making mistakes, sometimes irrationals etc.

    Continuing to repeatedly claim the Gods are "cowards", "weak" and "mortals" like a broken record does not suddenly make it true.

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    Well, from your words I presume you think that is no reason for life to exist and it has no purpose. But you are contradicted by the reality - even if you consider that the life has no reason to exist, it exists. For me (that is only an opinion) the simple fact that the life exists (and we, the humans included) is more than enough to think that it has a purpose too.

    i dont really have interest in talking about my own opinion in this. still ill say that in my opinion living is the purpose of life nothin more nothing less.. i hope we can leave it like that

    LOOOL !! "Arenanets employees are the gods of the tyrian multiverse. they created it all". Stop mocking the ANet workers, and please stop making jokes about them =).
    Because if you look at the image they give us about the six you can see that the six are: unwise (to not use a heavier word), cowards, mortals, weak, making mistakes, sometimes irrationals etc. This is how ANet workers are? Like the six?

    thats not exactly what i said
    arenanet is "THE" creator god and the six are powerful magical entitys who are called devine beings/ gods

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2019

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    the six are: unwise (to not use a heavier word), cowards, mortals, weak, making mistakes, sometimes irrationals etc.

    Continuing to repeatedly claim the Gods are "cowards", "weak" and "mortals" like a broken record does not suddenly make it true.

    It's not the claims that make them so. It's their behaviour. And you can probably add "selfish" to that list as well.

    Seriously, they were in such a hurry to leave Tyria at the fist sign their lives may be in danger, they even forgot to clear many messes they themselves made (you know, the ticking bombs like Balthasar, Dhuum and probably Mhenzies). No, saying they didn't want to cause collateral damage doesn't hold any water in a situation when there's a reality collapse incoming and one of those messes is working really hard to accelerate it. They've simply written off the whole Tyria and everything in it, figuring that it will be destroyed anyway, so why would they care. That's another point, by the way. Not only they didn't try to take humanity with them (you know, their most devout worshippers, and the race they brought toTyria in the first place). They also didn't save their most important worshippers (like Desmina). Not even Kormir bothered to do so (although it's not like we expected her to help anyone - being useless and/or actively harmful is probably her defining character trait).

    Yeah, as you can probably see, personally, i don't really like the way GW2 lore turned the human gods of GW1 into some twisted mockery we should probably be grateful is gone from the game for good. Hopefully.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    the six are: unwise (to not use a heavier word), cowards, mortals, weak, making mistakes, sometimes irrationals etc.

    Continuing to repeatedly claim the Gods are "cowards", "weak" and "mortals" like a broken record does not suddenly make it true.

    It's not the claims that make them so. It's their behaviour. And you can probably add "selfish" to that list as well.

    Seriously, they were in such a hurry to leave Tyria at the fist sign their lives may be in danger, they even forgot to clear many messes they themselves made (you know, the ticking bombs like Balthasar, Dhuum and probably Mhenzies). No, saying they didn't want to cause collateral damage doesn't hold any water in a situation when there's a reality collapse incoming and one of those messes is working really hard to accelerate it. They've simply written off the whole Tyria and everything in it, figuring that it will be destroyed anyway, so why would they care. That's another point, by the way. Not only they didn't try to take humanity with them (you know, their most devout worshippers, and the race they brought toTyria in the first place). They also didn't save their most important worshippers (like Desmina). Not even Kormir bothered to do so (although it's not like we expected her to help anyone - being useless and/or actively harmful is probably her defining character trait).

    Yeah, as you can probably see, personally, i don't really like the way GW2 lore turned the human gods of GW1 into some twisted mockery we should probably be grateful is gone from the game for good. Hopefully.

    Hate to disappoint, but ArenaNet have said we haven't seen the last of the Gods, so I feel reasonably confident saying everything you believe about them is going to be proven false in narrative terms.

    But just to pick apart your reasoning:

    • They were not in a hurry to leave Tyria, they left the world itself after their fight with Abaddon literally turned a sea into a desert, LONG before GW1 even started and before the wider world even had the faintest inkling of Elder Dragons existing. They withdrew further even just after GW1 (assumed timeline) because they knew fighting the Elder Dragons themselves would be cataclysmic regardless if they won or not.
    • They have left no messes. Balthazar got free because of a single charr wanting a sword back, otherwise Balthazar was locked up, depowered and unable to do anything, a much more effective type of imprisonment than Abaddon had, so clearly the Gods learned from their misstep there.
    • Them not wanting to cause collateral damage DOES hold water, don't be ridiculous, given the last known time the Gods used their powers in combat it turned a sea into a desert, they are quite right to be concerned that could/will happen again. The threat of reality collapsing has only happened several hundred years after the Gods departed and could well precipitate their return and involvement however brief. They could not take into account Balthazar's escape and Kralkatorrik's new powers to enter the Mists.
    • They've quite obviously not written off Tyria, Glint and the Forgotten made PLANS with them, from Glint's dialogue. They are part of the plan to replace the Elder Dragons and likely had a part to play in coming up with the idea. This is from Glint herself, wondering what the plans of the Gods are because they didn't tell her or the Forgotten everything. So yes, they haven't written it off and they do care.
    • They had nowhere to take humanity to. They can't take them into the raw Mists as that would kill them eventually, they need a terrastrial world to move them to which they do not have/are looking for/are preparing as the Plan B (Garden of the Gods). Which makes absolute sense for them to be the back-up plan in case the Plan A (Glint + Scions replacing Elder Dragons) does not succeed.
    • There is no need to save Desmina and other similar worshippers because they are charged with overseeing the Gods realms whilst they attend to Plan B, that much is plain.
    • Kormir likely is following the lead of the other Gods (Her seniors by a wide, wide margin) who also did not take their followers with them. She is not useless and that GW1 personality meme should remain a meme instead of using it to base the character on.
  • Gern.2978Gern.2978 Member ✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    Evolution, I would assume.

    In the GW universe, magic isn't some otherworldly divine force. It's a very natural, tangible, and measurable force. So, it's safe to assume that the laws of evolution are the same, just effected by magic which makes some creatures evolve to absorb and utilize magic in superhuman ways.

  • i would love if they game us more lore on each Gods domain in the mists, we got to go to FoW but Balth is now dead and no one was there to take his place and Balth killed Menzies so now im really curious the state of it is it barron? its it chaos itself? I wana go back so bad now that balth is no longer with us.... I would love balth to return in former glory, maybe killing menzies had balth consume menzies bad energy and that's why he became how he was, Kralk upon death could release balths energy back or something and maybe he could come back Idk I love balth ahaha ANYWAYS

    we see Grenths domain or more or less we see Dhuums domain that grenth was trying to take over in Gw1
    we also see Abbadons domain
    But what about Dwaynas? -hopefully a Heavenly area
    Melandrus
    lyssias
    im exited to see what they do they have so many opportunities to continue the gods I actually wish that's what was focused instead of the dragons because the lore behind the gods is SO juicy I love it :) looking forward to seeing what Anet does ! expectations are high xD

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.