Insanely overpowered ranger skills - Eg. Whirling Defense does more damage than hundred blades

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Passive SoS should either be removed or put elsewhere. It's legitimately stupid to put it in such a low-priority trait slot in an offensive line. I think ANet wanted to make MMS desirable because it somewhat lacks power otherwise compared to skirmishing and WS on core/druid, but it really is just lazy and there should be more incentive to play MMS through active play.

Sic 'Em is a problem, and the amount of free stats given by BM and pets are a problem when combined with things like extended damage immunity, high mobility, and extended unblockable attacks. BM+SB is basically permanent 20 might + fury + some extra damage and sustain without actually occupying might stacks or running the risk of being corrupted. It's a time-duration Pre-nerf-pre-nerf Assassin's Signet (yes, they nerfed it twice), which was game-shatteringly overpowered at launch and applied only to a single attack, had no extra benefits like revealed, and had a longer cooldown.

The issue is that like many other things in the game, soulbeast has a bloated kit and needs to have a bloated kit because a number of specs released in PoF also have incredibly bloated kits... like FB, Holo, Mirage, and to some extent, Deadeye (though even Deadeye's main issues are more symptoms of previous bad design in thief paired with two relatively thoughtless abilities rather than actual problems with the DE itself).

Ranger is particularly gross however just because of how safe it is. 1800 range attacks dealing an upwards of 7-10k damage (more with OWP) and its combo on an 8s cooldown dealing 50k+ damage in the span of a few seconds with a very high amount of mobility and at least one invuln (one of which is even passive), all on the same build, is not only just difficult to deal with, but frankly, extremely

easy

to play and do well with. It's strictly stronger than warrior has ever been, and by a very substantial margin at that, and frankly, miles easier.

We need to see the game toned down because in all honesty it's just no fun anymore. Especially when going back to core game content and in the PvP modes. One of ANet's main pillars of GW2 was to never phase out old content as to keep it feeling fresh and good. It's why we have downscaled events and dungeons and so on. It's why the gear level was never increased. And yet, the fundamental aspect of playing the game - the classes - bring so much extra power they render any and all of their predecessor content - including their predecessor classes - not just bad, but unenjoyable to deal with because of how easy and mindless it is.

When I go against a core game class with an elite spec at this point, I often feel I don't even need to think to beat them. That's not fun for me and it sure isn't fun for them. Soulbeast is the most egregious, followed by mirage and then holosmith.

WD, Prelude Lash, and the rest are all pretty okay Honestly, Swoop is a great addition for players who want to play the kiting-focused mobile DPS which core ranger and druid otherwise fail to deliver on. But the prominent builds running around right now are really oppressive and feel like they have no counterplay when playing a build with a slight disadvantage or which do not have blatant and direct answers, and often times, when the soulbeast plays well, have their answers negated thanks to things like unbockable attack access, stealth denial, substantial cleave and CC, and so on all within easy grasp.

Hell, I know a few ranger players who have even stopped playing the class because they stopped having fun with it largely being a free win in most matchups just

because

nothing really brings any real threat save condi mirage. But that's just OP vs OP...

Really, I can't stop laughing ... when I see someone saying Soulbeast is OP, that he can do 50k damage from 1800 ranger etc ... Yes, he can, as Mesmer and Thief can too, not from 1800, but from 1500. The only BIG difference is that Mesmer and Thief can easily escape after that burst, and Ranger can't!A good player with a balanced build always will beat a Sniper Soulbeast. Please don't look only on Youtube video, and get from there the idea Berserker Sic'em Build is OP, because is not vs good players.

DE does massively less damage than SB since the rework. DE just has fewer inherent tells, but standard rifle combo is basically the same thing as PBS+RF. Literally the only thing keeping DE oppressive is SScope and SA interactions. DJ is garbage and people who die to it either got massively outplayed or suck/aren't paying attention. Mirage can't even dream of the burst damage SB brings; it's 100-0 is just able to get an unsuspecting foe and nothing more.

I'd love for you to enlighten me on this math of yours about thief burst, especially. It's not like I'm an authority on burst thief or anything. Not like I've mained the maximum-possible burst damage thief build for the past six and a half years. /s

And to say ranger can't escape. Are you kidding me? Bird? Arctic Wolf? GS3? Free 1000+ range mobility on such low cooldowns is bad escape? Again, the only class in the game rocking that kind of mobility without major cost is Mirage. Even thief using shortbow struggles to keep up with that much burst disengage while maintaining some semblance of fuel in the tank.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the issue is more that you've never played the other classes more than anything. Hell, there have been a number of new thieves who mained ranger previously claiming S/D was crazy strong in the past who have come to the boards asking for help on how to deal with anything because they feel totally useless compared to their soulbeast, to slowly realize they learned the game on a training wheels class/build.

What's crazy is I even justified why the SB's kit is wildly overloaded in my post - and how it needs to be - by agreeing with you that these other specs are broken on their design levels which makes for exploitable play with limited weaknesses when played competently. The issue is that SB is broken in numbers which makes it super strong when played by anyone at all. And at the moment it's a bit excessive.

My criticism is that soulbeast is incredibly easy to achieve such high success with and how its damage is so easy to achieve without much cost to its efficacy on other scenarios. It has an answer to nearly everywhere in some aspect of its kits without much investment required to actually get it. Even if it doesn't have the best disengage in the game, it still has better disengage than 90% of the game. Even if it didn't have the best sustain in the game (P.S., as far as full glass builds go, it does, objectively), it still can tank better than 80% of what's out there. Even without the most ranged damage (which it also has), it still gets massively safe engages with next to no opportunity cost. You don't actually need to be even remotely good to pose a massive threat in smallscale when playing one. That's my point.

And if the build I'm referencing is so bad and so insignificant as you claim - which nearly every soulbeast I've encountered in WvW runs (which is around half the overall roaming population today or more I'd say) - then these nerfs will have no impact on the real "good" rangers and just hit the noobs who press three buttons and automatically kill anyone not running an invuln. So... how does this impact ranger skill expression or viability then? According to your logic, it doesn't.

When I go into WvW, if I want things to die and not need to think very much, I play my soulbeast in exotic gear. Despite the fact that I've only put maybe 400 hours in ranger, and despite the fact that I have almost fifteen times the play time and thousands of gold into gear and tons of math to optimize my thief, it's just easy, and generally, just stronger.

Say what you will, but this spec overperforms. OP went too far, but the spirit of the post - soulbeast having ridiculously overtuned numbers and a very easy play pattern to get solid results from - aren't untrue in the slightest.

The spirit of the post?

The op compared a bunch of skills that practically no one uses. /golfclap

And he made this one claim at the end "The soulbeast is the most overpowered thing to ever exist in the entirety on Guild Wars 2. More overpowered than a scourge combined with preHoT cele ele combined with prePoF chronomancer. How is this allowed?"

He didn't make a reasonable claim that soulbeast is overtuned or even a 'RIDICULOUSLY overtuned' claim like you did.

He said Soulbeasts are more op than a scourge combined with a prehot cele ele combined with a pre pof chronomancer.

I got 2 questions for you,

Why is the thief expert on the Ranger forums?

Do rangers underperform or do all thief specs (other than DE) underperform?

The spirit of the OP's post is how soulbeast has absolutely asinine amounts of burst damage. And it does. I already disagreed with a good portion of the specifics of what the OP said, so I don't really know what you're looking for from me - I think it's fine to have burst damage when there's a big risk factor involved in doing so. Objectively speaking, when you look at cooldowns, skill activation requirements, resource costs and inesvtment/buildup, counters, and so on, the soulbeast has the lowest-risk access to burst damage in the highest quantity of all professions in the entire game across nearly every tier of play. And as I've said over the years, burst damage is the only kind of damage that matters in the PvP modes.

Again, my criticism is how easy it is to play rather than any given numbers.

Why am I here? Because I pretty much quit thief to play soulbeast lol. It's just way more effective in every single area - and I don't even run any immunity effects at all - and to be honest, I'm bored playing it because when I win a fight - which is most of the time except into people who are playing safer builds or are just better than me at ranger - it feels EZ mode. I've already put in my two cents on Deadeye. I've already advocated for most of the nerfs and changes that have happened to thief over the years to make it require more skill and provide more reward. I play into rangers, particpated in the CDI for rangers with virtually every one of my suggestions having been implemented which turned them from dumpster-tier to fairly balanced. Unlike a lot of people, I legitimately care about the game's balance as a whole and don't put bias in my own class that I play. Hell, I wrote the deadeye elite spec proposal to be revealed-based because I knew what'd happen if they didn't,. But it's either soulbeast or mirage when you wanna fight small-scale, and mirage as we all know is already quite broken. I'd like to play my thief again. I'd like to play my reaper again. But it just isn't even remotely reasonable to do so with how dominant soulbeast is in particular.

As for soulbeasts/rangers not being taken in WvW, the reasoning behind it has little to do with ranger itself and mostly because of ow people play ranger and the longbow in particular. Ranger in 2013 was considered a solid class to take if played well thanks to Healing Spring and the need to blast waters. But most people kicked and didn't want to run with ranger pugs because despite the fact that huge damage from afar is great, in every meta since this game has started, reflects were and are spammed to keep the zerg alive. When you have ten people rail-gunning your own frontline thanks to reflects because they're tunneling on DPS which causes your frontline to instantly wipe and buffs your enemies, people don't want to run the risk.

Even a lot of changes with core ranger and soulbeast help offset this to make them not very flamable. Lots of unblockable access denies reflection, and if not for hammer rev dealing the bulk of its damage through non-projectiles and having such great projectile denial, I'm fairly certain soulbeast would be the optimal co-backline along with ele.

I made a name for myself on my server during past metas in T1 to a couple commanders when playing my thief well enough to help massively contribute to fights with spike damage on priority targets and simply just forcing a lot of cooldowns from the enemy zerg when going 1v30 for only a few seconds at a time and surviving. There was a short period of time when I co-commanded the main EBG blob back on TC prior to its collapse. Thief was just as meme-tier as ranger/druid was then. Play well enough and people will make exceptions because they know you're infinitely more skilled on the class you're damned good at than the simple and efficient supportive builds they put every noob who wants to play WvW on.

I'm here because I'm not really having fun anymore despite camping this class for it being so absurdly strong because it really is just downright too effective for how poorly I play it, and because this class also saps any enjoyment I get playing anything but really cheesy and boring builds on the classes I enjoy most because they can only cope with soulbeast by running cheesy and un-fun builds.

That's right, there are ranger builds that do a lot of damage... Just like there are other profession builds that do a lot of damage, but let's just blame ranger for all our woes!

Or better yet, let's think of something more rational as opposed to all the QQ about any particular profession shall we?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-would-be-a-healthy-change

Omgosh! Ranger mobility QQ because some main professions that don't have access to as many movement or positioning skills...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

Seriously peeps, some of you need to spend less time complaining, and more time thinking of logical solutions.

edit- oh those silly rangers with their pesky perma-stealth backstab builds that we have dealt with for 6 years and counting... yeah those rangers I tell ya...

@DeceiverX.8361 said:30k+ backstabs in permastealth SA with absolutely zero risk lol.

Like... this was so easy not to screw up and somehow they still managed to lol.

Inb4 backstab nerfed next patch in the wake of D/P stealth-camping Deadeye.

Look! Even more brainless and easy ranger burst gameplay as proof ranger OP!

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi WvW vid up with my new high burst power chrono build Quickow. Pls read the vid description/ pinned comment as always! Hope you can enjoy:

And what is your solution to all these obvious ranger problems? This?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/64855/please-do-something-about-might-on-dodge-endurance-regeneration-food

You are not paying attention, like at all Deceiver. You're coming across in a hypocritical way, and as if you are not capable of looking at things objectively. You are way out of touch with this game and what it needs, and have fallen into the "I lost to X so nerf X" trap... just like 75% of the posters in certain sections of the forums. You'd be a better force for change if you took a step back and actually thought about improvements to the game.

Edit 2- Meanwhile, for CU...

Q: "Michael (AdorianBlade) asked: What is your target for time to kill, while I know this varies by class comparisons as you are going for hard counters I was wondering if you had a ballpark figure. Personally I would like to see something longer as opposed to shorter."

Dev A: "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take. We will seek that sweet spot somewhere between ‘omg die already!’ and POOF insta-dead."

AND

"Stealth is made of several mechanics that the allow players to hide or sneak up on opposing players. These mechanics were funded by the Stealth Unchained Stretch Goal. The primary trios that utilize these mechanics are the . All classes can make use of some of these mechanics, but the Archers, Scouts and Stealthers specialize in using them. Though stealth and trios that heavily utilize it might or might not be usable immediately at launch, depending on circumstances, anyway they will be in the game as soon as possible. "

"The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible."

Start thinking differently and looking at the bigger pictures my friend, because there are large design issues at play... that have nothing to do with ranger... or any other profession for that matter.

Sir, you just nailed a thief ... You have my respect :) .Maybe starting from now, they will go back to their forum class and don't come here anymore to talk garbage.

[Ruufio.1496]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:@Ruufio.1496 @EremiteAngel.9765 Please play the profession in game for more than a minute before posting on the forums to ask for nerfs. You've both posted misinformation that does not contribute in any fashion to a balance discussion. You undermine your own arguments.

Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

[Revolution.5409]

@Ruufio.1496 said:Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

you could just create a ranger and try to get into a zerg and see what happens before you comment :)

[Lynnie.7213]

Is this for real? :#

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Lynnie.7213 said:Is this for real? :#

Sadly it is. I mean yeah ranger (or rather spulbeast) is somewhat overtuned in some aspects, but not straight up OP.And the point with LB in zergs made me laugh.

[Ruufio.1496]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@"Ruufio.1496" said:Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

you could just create a ranger and try to get into a zerg and see what happens before you comment :)

I already do it? As if there is some prerequisite? What do you mean "try" to get into a zerg? You hold movement keys to get into zerg.

Most hilarious thing I've seen so far in this thread that ranger mains don't even know how to use their ranger in a zerg lol. Use it for its strengths, which is overpowered amounts of duration based unblockables and incredibly high spike damage. See: sick em. You ranger mains don't even know the power of your own class.

[Shadowcat.2680]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:@Ruufio.1496 @EremiteAngel.9765 Please play the profession in game for more than a minute before posting on the forums to ask for nerfs. You've both posted misinformation that does not contribute in any fashion to a balance discussion. You undermine your own arguments.

Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

Then you should try and pay attention to the duration of your merged (w/ bear) Defy Pain in game. It doesn't last 5 secs. :)

[Lazze.9870]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:They already have enough mobility via the core skills/traits/weapons to kite efficiently.Soulbeasts should never have been given extra mobility via the bird pet merge.

I mean, what do you even propose? The entire point of the spec is to get the pets' skills. Saying it should have never gotten the bird mobility to begin with is ridiculous, not to mention the fact that we got a butchered version of the skill at the launch of PoF, and it was TERRIBLE. We already know what a nerfed bird looks like, it never amounted to anything other than good potential before Anet fixed it to match the tool tip numbers.

Our GS swoop, other than damage, has been butchered compared to what it was. It lost the double leap, although it apparently was okay for Scrapper to have that (just for the sake of meaninglessly comparing it to other classes like OP does). It lost 200 units of range, from 1200. And Hornet's Sting is the least snappy of comparable evade skills like it, like the one on the daredevil staff. Not to mention, a longbow build only runs one of these weapons, + potentially the owl. So a class with zero teleportation and blink skills has too much because it is allowed to play a ranged build with two leaps.

And sorry, not sorry, but someone that mains a necromancer gets no symhathy points from me regarding kiting and mobility. The playstyle of your class forces it.

[Lazze.9870]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

you could just create a ranger and try to get into a zerg and see what happens before you comment :)

I already do it? As if there is some prerequisite? What do you mean "try" to get into a zerg? You hold movement keys to get into zerg.

Most hilarious thing I've seen so far in this thread that ranger mains don't even know how to use their ranger in a zerg lol. Use it for its strengths, which is overpowered amounts of duration based unblockables and incredibly high spike damage. See: sick em. You ranger mains don't even know the power of your own class.

Ask your WvW commander if they want a ranger in their group :)

[Ruufio.1496]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

you could just create a ranger and try to get into a zerg and see what happens before you comment :)

I already do it? As if there is some prerequisite? What do you mean "try" to get into a zerg? You hold movement keys to get into zerg.

Most hilarious thing I've seen so far in this thread that ranger mains don't even know how to use their ranger in a zerg lol. Use it for its strengths, which is overpowered amounts of duration based unblockables and incredibly high spike damage. See: sick em. You ranger mains don't even know the power of your own class.

Ask your WvW commander if they want a ranger in their group :)

It's almost as if sometime something very powerful currently exists in GW2 and people haven't realized it yet.That's totally never happened before in GW2... oh wait...

I will continue using my pin snipe soulbeast to delete players/commanders from the game in the mean time.

[Lazze.9870]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

you could just create a ranger and try to get into a zerg and see what happens before you comment :)

I already do it? As if there is some prerequisite? What do you mean "try" to get into a zerg? You hold movement keys to get into zerg.

Most hilarious thing I've seen so far in this thread that ranger mains don't even know how to use their ranger in a zerg lol. Use it for its strengths, which is overpowered amounts of duration based unblockables and incredibly high spike damage. See: sick em. You ranger mains don't even know the power of your own class.

Ask your WvW commander if they want a ranger in their group :)

It's almost as if sometime something very powerful currently exists in GW2 and people haven't realized it yet.That's totally never happened before in GW2... oh wait...

I will continue using my pin snipe soulbeast to delete players/commanders from the game in the mean time.

While most of your comments in this thread are complete trash, I don't disagree with soulbeast being able to do work in wvw trains.

Doesn't change the fact that a commander isn't going to want a soulbeast in ther group a year from now either when everyone and their mother has "realized its potential". Because you're better off stacking other options.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

you could just create a ranger and try to get into a zerg and see what happens before you comment :)

I already do it? As if there is some prerequisite? What do you mean "try" to get into a zerg? You hold movement keys to get into zerg.

Most hilarious thing I've seen so far in this thread that ranger mains don't even know how to use their ranger in a zerg lol. Use it for its strengths, which is overpowered amounts of duration based unblockables and incredibly high spike damage. See: sick em. You ranger mains don't even know the power of your own class.

Ask your WvW commander if they want a ranger in their group :)

It's almost as if sometime something very powerful currently exists in GW2 and people haven't realized it yet.That's totally never happened before in GW2... oh wait...

I will continue using my pin snipe soulbeast to delete players/commanders from the game in the mean time.

Can you tell me please on what server are you playing? I want to meet you, you in your so OP mighty berserk Soulbeast build, and me ... in boonbeast or some similar with it.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Lol, my suggestion to remove Might on Dodge food was to help nerf Mirage, Holo, and Deadeye, which boonbunker SB also happens to get a ton from as well. You're taking a wholly different thread about a completely different problem way out of context.

MoD food contributes to a lot of rotational play issues found on the aforementioned classes - such as the sustained stealth on DE - which reduces punishment options. Just on Deadeye alone, might on Dodge food extends stealth uptime from camping rifle from 40% to 60%. The food is broken in a lot of interactions, and the failure to see that by the community is a big problem when it has implications like giving Mirage 1200 more units of disengage/mobility sooner than the class is supposed to - up to 3s sooner from the food alone. 3s is a long time to deal with a threat in this game.

What do I think should happen to soulbeast?

Round 1 of iterative balance. It's not solely just nerfs. More or less shaves from over-performers.

• Longbow fixed to 1500 range from 1800+.
• Passive Signet of Stone removed from the game. Instead provides bonus vitality.
• Eternal Bond removed from the game. Instead makes Beast skill activations heal.
• Pet's Prowess nerfed with unmerged pets getting baseline improved ferocity to compensate (buffing core/offensive druid).
• Fresh Reinforcement - Removed. Instead applies 2 stacks of stability for 5s, cleanses two conditions, and heals self for 2k.
• Sic 'Em dropped to 15% and increased in duration instead. Debuff affects all incoming damage to the target from all targets dealing damage rather than solely the pet/merged soulbeast outgoing to the target (massive PvE/group play boost).
• Signet of Stone normalized with Endure Pain via lower duration and shorter cooldown (improved sPvP point control).
• Fewer damage modifier traits in Soulbeast with static bonus power instead as they're doing to every other profession to prevent ridiculous scaling hits with MMS.
• Reduced mobility on several dominant pets like Arctic Wolf and Smoke Assault (Merged) which feature prominent additional defenses like extra evasion and damage immunity. Increased cooldown on Swoop (Merged) to 20s but provides 1/2s evasion per the GS skill.
• Vulture Stance reduced to 20s cooldown.
• Griffon Stance removes the slow and immobilize conditions.
• Leader of the Pack provides no effect duration penalty to allies.

Then we'd go from there.

A lot of this would ruin many aspects of ranger. BM would become garbage again just off the top of my head.

I think the biggest problem with SB isn’t the above on what you think should be. I think it’s the unblockables. Those need to be removed.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I think unblocksble for 3 sec after per swap or weapon change is ok because it requires set up.unblockable at press of a button isn’t.all unblocksbles should also read:-25%damage while unblocksble to balance it a bit. To add all 100% invulnerability for 3 or more second skills should read lose a % of endurance for damage taken. Might work lol

[Ruufio.1496]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

you could just create a ranger and try to get into a zerg and see what happens before you comment :)

I already do it? As if there is some prerequisite? What do you mean "try" to get into a zerg? You hold movement keys to get into zerg.

Most hilarious thing I've seen so far in this thread that ranger mains don't even know how to use their ranger in a zerg lol. Use it for its strengths, which is overpowered amounts of duration based unblockables and incredibly high spike damage. See: sick em. You ranger mains don't even know the power of your own class.

Ask your WvW commander if they want a ranger in their group :)

It's almost as if sometime something very powerful currently exists in GW2 and people haven't realized it yet.That's totally never happened before in GW2... oh wait...

I will continue using my pin snipe soulbeast to delete players/commanders from the game in the mean time.

Can you tell me please on what server are you playing? I want to meet you, you in your so OP mighty berserk Soulbeast build, and me ... in boonbeast or some similar with it.

You would win unless you miss-played badly and got hit by the burst. The point is that ranger (soulbeast) is not useless in zergs.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

you could just create a ranger and try to get into a zerg and see what happens before you comment :)

I already do it? As if there is some prerequisite? What do you mean "try" to get into a zerg? You hold movement keys to get into zerg.

Most hilarious thing I've seen so far in this thread that ranger mains don't even know how to use their ranger in a zerg lol. Use it for its strengths, which is overpowered amounts of duration based unblockables and incredibly high spike damage. See: sick em. You ranger mains don't even know the power of your own class.

Ask your WvW commander if they want a ranger in their group :)

It's almost as if sometime something very powerful currently exists in GW2 and people haven't realized it yet.That's totally never happened before in GW2... oh wait...

I will continue using my pin snipe soulbeast to delete players/commanders from the game in the mean time.

Can you tell me please on what server are you playing? I want to meet you, you in your so OP mighty berserk Soulbeast build, and me ... in boonbeast or some similar with it.

You would win unless you miss-played badly and got hit by the burst. The point is that ranger (soulbeast) is not useless in zergs.

I didn't say ranger is useless in zerg, and many main rangers didn't say either. I can say we are very useful in zerg, we are that killing squad, we are in that group who can destroy sieges on the top of the walls besides the elementalists, we can provide stability, -33% condi and power damage. The ranger is very useful in zergs too, if you know how to play.But, once again ranger is not OP. Yes, he is in the very top list in sPVP and roaming WOW, but is not OP.

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Passive SoS should either be removed or put elsewhere. It's legitimately stupid to put it in such a low-priority trait slot in an offensive line. I think ANet wanted to make MMS desirable because it somewhat lacks power otherwise compared to skirmishing and WS on core/druid, but it really is just lazy and there should be more incentive to play MMS through active play.

Sic 'Em is a problem, and the amount of free stats given by BM and pets are a problem when combined with things like extended damage immunity, high mobility, and extended unblockable attacks. BM+SB is basically permanent 20 might + fury + some extra damage and sustain without actually occupying might stacks or running the risk of being corrupted. It's a time-duration Pre-nerf-pre-nerf Assassin's Signet (yes, they nerfed it twice), which was game-shatteringly overpowered at launch and applied only to a single attack, had no extra benefits like revealed, and had a longer cooldown.

The issue is that like many other things in the game, soulbeast has a bloated kit and needs to have a bloated kit because a number of specs released in PoF also have incredibly bloated kits... like FB, Holo, Mirage, and to some extent, Deadeye (though even Deadeye's main issues are more symptoms of previous bad design in thief paired with two relatively thoughtless abilities rather than actual problems with the DE itself).

Ranger is particularly gross however just because of how safe it is. 1800 range attacks dealing an upwards of 7-10k damage (more with OWP) and its combo on an 8s cooldown dealing 50k+ damage in the span of a few seconds with a very high amount of mobility and at least one invuln (one of which is even passive), all on the same build, is not only just difficult to deal with, but frankly, extremely

easy

to play and do well with. It's strictly stronger than warrior has ever been, and by a very substantial margin at that, and frankly, miles easier.

We need to see the game toned down because in all honesty it's just no fun anymore. Especially when going back to core game content and in the PvP modes. One of ANet's main pillars of GW2 was to never phase out old content as to keep it feeling fresh and good. It's why we have downscaled events and dungeons and so on. It's why the gear level was never increased. And yet, the fundamental aspect of playing the game - the classes - bring so much extra power they render any and all of their predecessor content - including their predecessor classes - not just bad, but unenjoyable to deal with because of how easy and mindless it is.

When I go against a core game class with an elite spec at this point, I often feel I don't even need to think to beat them. That's not fun for me and it sure isn't fun for them. Soulbeast is the most egregious, followed by mirage and then holosmith.

WD, Prelude Lash, and the rest are all pretty okay Honestly, Swoop is a great addition for players who want to play the kiting-focused mobile DPS which core ranger and druid otherwise fail to deliver on. But the prominent builds running around right now are really oppressive and feel like they have no counterplay when playing a build with a slight disadvantage or which do not have blatant and direct answers, and often times, when the soulbeast plays well, have their answers negated thanks to things like unbockable attack access, stealth denial, substantial cleave and CC, and so on all within easy grasp.

Hell, I know a few ranger players who have even stopped playing the class because they stopped having fun with it largely being a free win in most matchups just

because

nothing really brings any real threat save condi mirage. But that's just OP vs OP...

Really, I can't stop laughing ... when I see someone saying Soulbeast is OP, that he can do 50k damage from 1800 ranger etc ... Yes, he can, as Mesmer and Thief can too, not from 1800, but from 1500. The only BIG difference is that Mesmer and Thief can easily escape after that burst, and Ranger can't!A good player with a balanced build always will beat a Sniper Soulbeast. Please don't look only on Youtube video, and get from there the idea Berserker Sic'em Build is OP, because is not vs good players.

DE does massively less damage than SB since the rework. DE just has fewer inherent tells, but standard rifle combo is basically the same thing as PBS+RF. Literally the only thing keeping DE oppressive is SScope and SA interactions. DJ is garbage and people who die to it either got massively outplayed or suck/aren't paying attention. Mirage can't even dream of the burst damage SB brings; it's 100-0 is just able to get an unsuspecting foe and nothing more.

I'd love for you to enlighten me on this math of yours about thief burst, especially. It's not like I'm an authority on burst thief or anything. Not like I've mained the maximum-possible burst damage thief build for the past six and a half years. /s

And to say ranger can't escape. Are you kidding me? Bird? Arctic Wolf? GS3? Free 1000+ range mobility on such low cooldowns is bad escape? Again, the only class in the game rocking that kind of mobility without major cost is Mirage. Even thief using shortbow struggles to keep up with that much burst disengage while maintaining some semblance of fuel in the tank.

Honestly, I'm pretty sure the issue is more that you've never played the other classes more than anything. Hell, there have been a number of new thieves who mained ranger previously claiming S/D was crazy strong in the past who have come to the boards asking for help on how to deal with anything because they feel totally useless compared to their soulbeast, to slowly realize they learned the game on a training wheels class/build.

What's crazy is I even justified why the SB's kit is wildly overloaded in my post - and how it needs to be - by agreeing with you that these other specs are broken on their design levels which makes for exploitable play with limited weaknesses when played competently. The issue is that SB is broken in numbers which makes it super strong when played by anyone at all. And at the moment it's a bit excessive.

My criticism is that soulbeast is incredibly easy to achieve such high success with and how its damage is so easy to achieve without much cost to its efficacy on other scenarios. It has an answer to nearly everywhere in some aspect of its kits without much investment required to actually get it. Even if it doesn't have the best disengage in the game, it still has better disengage than 90% of the game. Even if it didn't have the best sustain in the game (P.S., as far as full glass builds go, it does, objectively), it still can tank better than 80% of what's out there. Even without the most ranged damage (which it also has), it still gets massively safe engages with next to no opportunity cost. You don't actually need to be even remotely good to pose a massive threat in smallscale when playing one. That's my point.

And if the build I'm referencing is so bad and so insignificant as you claim - which nearly every soulbeast I've encountered in WvW runs (which is around half the overall roaming population today or more I'd say) - then these nerfs will have no impact on the real "good" rangers and just hit the noobs who press three buttons and automatically kill anyone not running an invuln. So... how does this impact ranger skill expression or viability then? According to your logic, it doesn't.

When I go into WvW, if I want things to die and not need to think very much, I play my soulbeast in exotic gear. Despite the fact that I've only put maybe 400 hours in ranger, and despite the fact that I have almost fifteen times the play time and thousands of gold into gear and tons of math to optimize my thief, it's just easy, and generally, just stronger.

Say what you will, but this spec overperforms. OP went too far, but the spirit of the post - soulbeast having ridiculously overtuned numbers and a very easy play pattern to get solid results from - aren't untrue in the slightest.

The spirit of the post?

The op compared a bunch of skills that practically no one uses. /golfclap

And he made this one claim at the end "The soulbeast is the most overpowered thing to ever exist in the entirety on Guild Wars 2. More overpowered than a scourge combined with preHoT cele ele combined with prePoF chronomancer. How is this allowed?"

He didn't make a reasonable claim that soulbeast is overtuned or even a 'RIDICULOUSLY overtuned' claim like you did.

He said Soulbeasts are more op than a scourge combined with a prehot cele ele combined with a pre pof chronomancer.

I got 2 questions for you,

Why is the thief expert on the Ranger forums?

Do rangers underperform or do all thief specs (other than DE) underperform?

The spirit of the OP's post is how soulbeast has absolutely asinine amounts of burst damage. And it does. I already disagreed with a good portion of the specifics of what the OP said, so I don't really know what you're looking for from me - I think it's fine to have burst damage when there's a big risk factor involved in doing so. Objectively speaking, when you look at cooldowns, skill activation requirements, resource costs and inesvtment/buildup, counters, and so on, the soulbeast has the lowest-risk access to burst damage in the highest quantity of all professions in the entire game across nearly every tier of play. And as I've said over the years, burst damage is the only kind of damage that matters in the PvP modes.

Again, my criticism is how easy it is to play rather than any given numbers.

Why am I here? Because I pretty much quit thief to play soulbeast lol. It's just way more effective in every single area - and I don't even run any immunity effects at all - and to be honest, I'm bored playing it because when I win a fight - which is most of the time except into people who are playing safer builds or are just better than me at ranger - it feels EZ mode. I've already put in my two cents on Deadeye. I've already advocated for most of the nerfs and changes that have happened to thief over the years to make it require more skill and provide more reward. I play into rangers, particpated in the CDI for rangers with virtually every one of my suggestions having been implemented which turned them from dumpster-tier to fairly balanced. Unlike a lot of people, I legitimately care about the game's balance as a whole and don't put bias in my own class that I play. Hell, I wrote the deadeye elite spec proposal to be revealed-based because I knew what'd happen if they didn't,. But it's either soulbeast or mirage when you wanna fight small-scale, and mirage as we all know is already quite broken. I'd like to play my thief again. I'd like to play my reaper again. But it just isn't even remotely reasonable to do so with how dominant soulbeast is in particular.

As for soulbeasts/rangers not being taken in WvW, the reasoning behind it has little to do with ranger itself and mostly because of ow people play ranger and the longbow in particular. Ranger in 2013 was considered a solid class to take if played well thanks to Healing Spring and the need to blast waters. But most people kicked and didn't want to run with ranger pugs because despite the fact that huge damage from afar is great, in every meta since this game has started, reflects were and are spammed to keep the zerg alive. When you have ten people rail-gunning your own frontline thanks to reflects because they're tunneling on DPS which causes your frontline to instantly wipe and buffs your enemies, people don't want to run the risk.

Even a lot of changes with core ranger and soulbeast help offset this to make them not very flamable. Lots of unblockable access denies reflection, and if not for hammer rev dealing the bulk of its damage through non-projectiles and having such great projectile denial, I'm fairly certain soulbeast would be the optimal co-backline along with ele.

I made a name for myself on my server during past metas in T1 to a couple commanders when playing my thief well enough to help massively contribute to fights with spike damage on priority targets and simply just forcing a lot of cooldowns from the enemy zerg when going 1v30 for only a few seconds at a time and surviving. There was a short period of time when I co-commanded the main EBG blob back on TC prior to its collapse. Thief was just as meme-tier as ranger/druid was then. Play well enough and people will make exceptions because they know you're infinitely more skilled on the class you're damned good at than the simple and efficient supportive builds they put every noob who wants to play WvW on.

I'm here because I'm not really having fun anymore despite camping this class for it being so absurdly strong because it really is just downright too effective for how poorly I play it, and because this class also saps any enjoyment I get playing anything but really cheesy and boring builds on the classes I enjoy most because they can only cope with soulbeast by running cheesy and un-fun builds.

That's right, there are ranger builds that do a lot of damage... Just like there are other profession builds that do a lot of damage, but let's just blame ranger for all our woes!

Or better yet, let's think of something more rational as opposed to all the QQ about any particular profession shall we?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-would-be-a-healthy-change

Omgosh! Ranger mobility QQ because some main professions that don't have access to as many movement or positioning skills...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9804/idea-wvw-only-movement-skills

Seriously peeps, some of you need to spend less time complaining, and more time thinking of logical solutions.

edit- oh those silly rangers with their pesky perma-stealth backstab builds that we have dealt with for 6 years and counting... yeah those rangers I tell ya...

@DeceiverX.8361 said:30k+ backstabs in permastealth SA with absolutely zero risk lol.

Like... this was so easy not to screw up and somehow they still managed to lol.

Inb4 backstab nerfed next patch in the wake of D/P stealth-camping Deadeye.

Look! Even more brainless and easy ranger burst gameplay as proof ranger OP!

@"Jazz.4639" said:hi WvW vid up with my new high burst power chrono build Quickow. Pls read the vid description/ pinned comment as always! Hope you can enjoy:

And what is your solution to all these obvious ranger problems? This?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/64855/please-do-something-about-might-on-dodge-endurance-regeneration-food

You are not paying attention, like at all Deceiver. You're coming across in a hypocritical way, and as if you are not capable of looking at things objectively. You are way out of touch with this game and what it needs, and have fallen into the "I lost to X so nerf X" trap... just like 75% of the posters in certain sections of the forums. You'd be a better force for change if you took a step back and actually thought about improvements to the game.

Edit 2- Meanwhile, for CU...

Q: "Michael (AdorianBlade) asked: What is your target for time to kill, while I know this varies by class comparisons as you are going for hard counters I was wondering if you had a ballpark figure. Personally I would like to see something longer as opposed to shorter."

Dev A: "This is a rather loaded question and a lot factors into this. For instance, clearly some characters will be far more vulnerable (lower HP and resists) than others. I can at least say this, we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take. We will seek that sweet spot somewhere between ‘omg die already!’ and POOF insta-dead."

AND

"Stealth is made of several mechanics that the allow players to hide or sneak up on opposing players. These mechanics were funded by the Stealth Unchained Stretch Goal. The primary trios that utilize these mechanics are the . All classes can make use of some of these mechanics, but the Archers, Scouts and Stealthers specialize in using them. Though stealth and trios that heavily utilize it might or might not be usable immediately at launch, depending on circumstances, anyway they will be in the game as soon as possible. "

"The design goals for this Stretch Goal can be summarized below:Goal #1 – Design a fun, interesting stealth mechanic, and classes that are not seen as “Easy Mode” by non-stealthers.Goal #2 - Do not design a class that is centered around a strong opener, stun, and vanish with long/unlimited stealth, nor a class that can hide, one-shot, vanish again.Goal #3 – Design a class that has the ability to be very active and sought-after, either in RvR groups or as roamers.Goal #4 – Design a class that some non-traditional Stealthers want to play.Goal #5 – Design a class that requires skill to play well, and not just unlimited patience.Goal #6 – Design a system where a gank group of Stealthers is not possible."

Start thinking differently and looking at the bigger pictures my friend, because there are large design issues at play... that have nothing to do with ranger... or any other profession for that matter.

Sir, you just nailed a thief ... You have my respect :) .Maybe starting from now, they will go back to their forum class and don't come here anymore to talk garbage.

You do realize I was complaining about my own profession having those damage numbers for the same exact reasons, that I've advocated removing permastealth for SIX YEARS - AND - Swagger in his own quoted threads repeatedly used my statement to justify the point I made out of agreement, too, right?

I also want to point out I have more hours clocked on power reaper since HoT - even when it was considered bad (whoops, ANet really botched those "buffs" meanwhile gutting its PvP potency) - than I do on thief. I mostly just post on the thief boards because it's the class I know the best and need to shut down stupid suggestion made by people wanting too many buffs in the wrong places. And some of the people there are at least reasonable.

So now that I'm playing ranger, and saying the same things, all of a sudden I can't be agreeable. Yeah okay, you're definitely not biased at all lol.

And I'm gonna be real in saying that right now the reality of the 30k backstab is so much lower than 30k-50k rapid fire and requires more build investment. It's brainless and low-risk relative to the rest of thief, but honestly, I think soulbeast right now is even easier and lower risk than CS backstab peramstealth DE just because it's got more crutches in most of its mainstream builds. I can and have called out DE because I was playing thief. Soulbeast is just as guilty right now. And I'm playing it - performing way better than I ever have in 6k hours of thief in < 300 hours on ranger - and similarly, I'm calling it out.

Unless you'd like to tell me that the ranger innately deserves special treatment compared to the rest of the professions, my point stands, from numerical and historical perspectives based on the rationale of previous changes which were well-received because the things they dealt with were problems. I want one thing: a balanced and fun game. And right now we have neither.

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:Lol, my suggestion to remove Might on Dodge food was to help nerf Mirage, Holo, and Deadeye, which boonbunker SB also happens to get a ton from as well. You're taking a wholly different thread about a completely different problem way out of context.

MoD food contributes to a lot of rotational play issues found on the aforementioned classes - such as the sustained stealth on DE - which reduces punishment options. Just on Deadeye alone, might on Dodge food extends stealth uptime from camping rifle from 40% to 60%. The food is broken in a lot of interactions, and the failure to see that by the community is a big problem when it has implications like giving Mirage 1200 more units of disengage/mobility sooner than the class is supposed to - up to 3s sooner from the food alone. 3s is a long time to deal with a threat in this game.

What do I think should happen to soulbeast?

Round 1 of iterative balance. It's not solely just nerfs. More or less shaves from over-performers.

• Longbow fixed to 1500 range from 1800+.
• Passive Signet of Stone removed from the game. Instead provides bonus vitality.
• Eternal Bond removed from the game. Instead makes Beast skill activations heal.
• Pet's Prowess nerfed with unmerged pets getting baseline improved ferocity to compensate (buffing core/offensive druid).
• Fresh Reinforcement - Removed. Instead applies 2 stacks of stability for 5s, cleanses two conditions, and heals self for 2k.
• Sic 'Em dropped to 15% and increased in duration instead. Debuff affects all incoming damage to the target from all targets dealing damage rather than solely the pet/merged soulbeast outgoing to the target (massive PvE/group play boost).
• Signet of Stone normalized with Endure Pain via lower duration and shorter cooldown (improved sPvP point control).
• Fewer damage modifier traits in Soulbeast with static bonus power instead as they're doing to every other profession to prevent ridiculous scaling hits with MMS.
• Reduced mobility on several dominant pets like Arctic Wolf and Smoke Assault (Merged) which feature prominent additional defenses like extra evasion and damage immunity. Increased cooldown on Swoop (Merged) to 20s but provides 1/2s evasion per the GS skill.
• Vulture Stance reduced to 20s cooldown.
• Griffon Stance removes the slow and immobilize conditions.
• Leader of the Pack provides no effect duration penalty to allies.

Then we'd go from there.

A lot of this would ruin many aspects of ranger. BM would become garbage again just off the top of my head.

I think the biggest problem with SB isn’t the above on what you think should be. I think it’s the unblockables. Those need to be removed.

Would it? Consider the changes for a minute. What exactly there affects core or druid? Passive invuln removed from MMS longbow builds (this is not at all "ranger-esque," either, considering the trait was added in 2017) and longbow being properly fixed? All that really got nerfed hard were passive defenses that do nothing to help active play as the medium classes are supposed to have (thief being obvious with fewer resources stats/dependency on active play, engi skill/kit management, ranger positional and pet/swap management somewhere in between the two) and some suggested bugfixes. SoS ends up stronger in repeated-fight scenarios thanks to the reduced cooldown, Sic 'Em ends up being a massive buff to core and druid, stances become way better and condi cleanse options deviate away solely from Bear Stance/WS for Soulbeast, and the themes of group support via shared stances and healing (see: Spirits) are improved massively to help sustain-oriented builds.

The ranger in GW2 was never supposed to specifically be a railgunning dedicated archer, and that's not even just my opinion - go ahead and look through all sorts of dev commentary in years' past directly opposing the notion. I love playing mobile ranged DPS, but the ranger just has too much right now. While the option to deal ranged DPS and be mobile should be available such that the class never finds itself in a pre-CDI state, I can't see how anyone could claim the above changes aren't within the theme, and all that really changes is requiring a slightly marginal amount more skill to play with these very hard-hitting builds, while providing an overall increased amount of options across the board. I'm not asking to gut the pets or beast skills so much as re-evaluate. Make Merged Smoke Assault 600 range instead of 750. That kind of stuff.

Maybe I should also clarify some errata in that I also intend for Pet's Prowess's change to provide all pets baseline 30% more mobility as well.

BM in core and druid end up unchanged mathematically with the above. Literally everything mentioned above except the SoS changes - something people have been critical of for a very long time being a passive invuln effect - only affects soulbeast.

And let the record state I still think Anet should remove Instant Reflexes, Defy Pain, and Unholy Sanctuary as well, and am happy they removed SRD from engineer. I think all passive traits should be removed from the game to promote a consistent experience and reward skill instead of builds. It's just the auto-immunity ones are the most blatant offenders and ranger's are extended which makes punishing within the period of a fight overly-difficult for anyone trying to force a fight even if they play well to avoid or negate most of the incoming damage. These traits are anti-fun, anti-skill, and have been called out by most people in the upper echelons of PvP historically.

As for unblockables... the extent of them, maybe, but the game is unblockable/block-happy right now, and frankly, this is also what enables ranger to actually work respectably in zerg play in WvW when played well. Maybe there are better solutions out there for the class in terms of totally reworking longbow, and sure, I'd love to see this effect toned down, but until FB is nerfed it just can't happen. I'd argue being able to not kill your own allies while dealing damageis a pretty big advantage to have over anything else. I'd argue being able to kill a firebrand/mirage at the cost of unmerging on occasion (and running the risk/cost of maintaining lower stats, which is the point I'm trying to make) is probably better and more rewarding than camping a pet.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:You do realize I was complaining about my own profession having those damage numbers for the same exact reasons, that I've advocated removing permastealth for SIX YEARS - AND - Swagger in his own quoted threads repeatedly used my statement to justify the point I made out of agreement, too, right?

You do realize that we don't care?! It is your business if you want your class to be nerfed.

I also want to point out I have more hours clocked on power reaper since HoT - even when it was considered bad (whoops, ANet really botched those "buffs" meanwhile gutting its PvP potency) - than I do on thief. I mostly just post on the thief boards because it's the class I know the best and need to shut down stupid suggestion made by people wanting too many buffs in the wrong places. And some of the people there are at least reasonable.

" stupid suggestion" ... exactly that's why we try to explain you to go on other forums because your suggestions are in the same way as ppl you wanted to shut down.

So now that I'm playing ranger, and saying the same things, all of a sudden I can't be agreeable. Yeah okay, you're definitely not biased at all lol.

The fact you are complaining about how OP ranger is, prove that you don't know almost anything about this class. We already prove you that Glass cannon Ranger is not an option in W3 neither in sPVP. One example of sPVP is the build of top rangers are playing (boonbeast or a mix of ). The second example could be fighting with me or another ranger who play properly in W3. Playing glass cannon in zerg, as you said, doesn't mean anything! If you want to talk about a class, you can talk when is a duel or a small scale fight (2 -5 players).

And I'm gonna be real in saying that right now the reality of the 30k backstab is so much lower than 30k-50k rapid fire and requires more build investment. It's brainless and low-risk relative to the rest of thief, but honestly, I think soulbeast right now is even easier and lower risk than CS backstab peramstealth DE just because it's got more crutches in most of its mainstream builds. I can and have called out DE because I was playing thief. Soulbeast is just as guilty right now. And I'm playing it - performing way better than I ever have in 6k hours of thief in < 300 hours on ranger - and similarly, I'm calling it out.

You talk garbage, sorry, but this is the reality ... I can prove you ANY time, but any time, that a good thief can go in the middle of the group of 5 players and backstab til death one of them, then he vanish ... instead, I can prove you that a ranger can't do it ... even you are saying tha he can deal 30k-50k. Please don't talk fairy tales here ...

Unless you'd like to tell me that the ranger innately deserves special treatment compared to the rest of the professions, my point stands, from numerical and historical perspectives based on the rationale of previous changes which were well-received because the things they dealt with were problems. I want one thing: a balanced and fun game. And right now we have neither.

I don't want ranger to get special treatment, but I don't want to be nerfed either when atm are few classes (mesmer, thief) who can kill with one shot and then they escape as nothing happened.

Please check once again on top ranks and see what classes are mostly there ... then come and continue with your saga ...

[Lazze.9870]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:Lol, my suggestion to remove Might on Dodge food was to help nerf Mirage, Holo, and Deadeye, which boonbunker SB also happens to get a ton from as well. You're taking a wholly different thread about a completely different problem way out of context.

MoD food contributes to a lot of rotational play issues found on the aforementioned classes - such as the sustained stealth on DE - which reduces punishment options. Just on Deadeye alone, might on Dodge food extends stealth uptime from camping rifle from 40% to 60%. The food is broken in a lot of interactions, and the failure to see that by the community is a big problem when it has implications like giving Mirage 1200 more units of disengage/mobility sooner than the class is supposed to - up to 3s sooner from the food alone. 3s is a long time to deal with a threat in this game.

What do I think should happen to soulbeast?

Round 1 of iterative balance. It's not solely just nerfs. More or less shaves from over-performers.

• Longbow fixed to 1500 range from 1800+.
• Passive Signet of Stone removed from the game. Instead provides bonus vitality.
• Eternal Bond removed from the game. Instead makes Beast skill activations heal.
• Pet's Prowess nerfed with unmerged pets getting baseline improved ferocity to compensate (buffing core/offensive druid).
• Fresh Reinforcement - Removed. Instead applies 2 stacks of stability for 5s, cleanses two conditions, and heals self for 2k.
• Sic 'Em dropped to 15% and increased in duration instead. Debuff affects all incoming damage to the target from all targets dealing damage rather than solely the pet/merged soulbeast outgoing to the target (massive PvE/group play boost).
• Signet of Stone normalized with Endure Pain via lower duration and shorter cooldown (improved sPvP point control).
• Fewer damage modifier traits in Soulbeast with static bonus power instead as they're doing to every other profession to prevent ridiculous scaling hits with MMS.
• Reduced mobility on several dominant pets like Arctic Wolf and Smoke Assault (Merged) which feature prominent additional defenses like extra evasion and damage immunity. Increased cooldown on Swoop (Merged) to 20s but provides 1/2s evasion per the GS skill.
• Vulture Stance reduced to 20s cooldown.
• Griffon Stance removes the slow and immobilize conditions.
• Leader of the Pack provides no effect duration penalty to allies.

Then we'd go from there.

I'm gonna ask you the same question I ask everyone else complaining about Soulbeast damage, and particularly the modifiers it gets from staying merged.

Doesn't the fact that Soulbeast rely on Sic Em and is not even close to be on par with other power dps professions in raid scenearios without it say something about how extremely bad the ranger power coefficients and power scaling are to begin with? Because every god damn comment I read about Soulbeast damage stacking focus almost entirely (minus Attack of Oppertunity) on these bonus stats and modifiers.

Ranger was buffed to put it on par with other classes because Soulbeast alone wasn't enough. That included removing the restrictions on traits that affected the ranger when merged, and buffing core weapons and traits (which was ABOUT TIME). Anet has over the time made some major buff the core aspects of the class because it was pretty fricking clear that just merging the pet and giving it some stats still made it lag way behind. People look at all the modifiers the class gets from merging and stacking up stats and traits designed for the pet and go "wtf, op", while completely ignoring that the ranger itself has been damage taxed from having a pet mechanic since the launch of the game.

And not a single one of you take this into considerration. There is not a single comment about normalizing ranger power coefficients with other classes before nerfing every stat increase and modifier it has. You're too used to ranger hitting you with its greatsword like its a fricking wet noodle pre-PoF. And guess what, none of these buffs to core ranger change the fact that without SB, it still hits you like a wet noodle.

"Then we'd go from there". How about we tune core ranger damage to be where it should before messing with what it additionally gets from its "dps elite spec". Soulbeast is a bandaid to ranger's power damage output, and whenever they choose to put out a new elite spec, everything will be back to normal. The new spec won't have any complains about damage, because the core class is holding it back, and Soulbeast will remain the only pure power damage option the profession has that is comparable to other professions, unless they gut it completely.

[ChartFish.1308]

@"DeceiverX.8361" said:Lol, my suggestion to remove Might on Dodge food was to help nerf Mirage, Holo, and Deadeye, which boonbunker SB also happens to get a ton from as well. You're taking a wholly different thread about a completely different problem way out of context.

MoD food contributes to a lot of rotational play issues found on the aforementioned classes - such as the sustained stealth on DE - which reduces punishment options. Just on Deadeye alone, might on Dodge food extends stealth uptime from camping rifle from 40% to 60%. The food is broken in a lot of interactions, and the failure to see that by the community is a big problem when it has implications like giving Mirage 1200 more units of disengage/mobility sooner than the class is supposed to - up to 3s sooner from the food alone. 3s is a long time to deal with a threat in this game.

What do I think should happen to soulbeast?

Round 1 of iterative balance. It's not solely just nerfs. More or less shaves from over-performers.

• Longbow fixed to 1500 range from 1800+.
• Passive Signet of Stone removed from the game. Instead provides bonus vitality.
• Eternal Bond removed from the game. Instead makes Beast skill activations heal.
• Pet's Prowess nerfed with unmerged pets getting baseline improved ferocity to compensate (buffing core/offensive druid).
• Fresh Reinforcement - Removed. Instead applies 2 stacks of stability for 5s, cleanses two conditions, and heals self for 2k.
• Sic 'Em dropped to 15% and increased in duration instead. Debuff affects all incoming damage to the target from all targets dealing damage rather than solely the pet/merged soulbeast outgoing to the target (massive PvE/group play boost).
• Signet of Stone normalized with Endure Pain via lower duration and shorter cooldown (improved sPvP point control).
• Fewer damage modifier traits in Soulbeast with static bonus power instead as they're doing to every other profession to prevent ridiculous scaling hits with MMS.
• Reduced mobility on several dominant pets like Arctic Wolf and Smoke Assault (Merged) which feature prominent additional defenses like extra evasion and damage immunity. Increased cooldown on Swoop (Merged) to 20s but provides 1/2s evasion per the GS skill.
• Vulture Stance reduced to 20s cooldown.
• Griffon Stance removes the slow and immobilize conditions.
• Leader of the Pack provides no effect duration penalty to allies.

Then we'd go from there.

,,, gkjhfg

• if you wish to "fix" ranger longbow ranger to 1500 then you better ask all projectiles (DH longbow, warrior longbow, elementalist staff, thief shortbow etc) be fixed too. They all reach much further than ""intended"" ranger (longbows reach +1500 range, thief shortbow can actually hit same distance as DE rifle with a bit of fiddling. i think i've managed the same distance on shortbow as kneeling rifle). it's nitpicking but i'm sick and tired of everyone always pointing ranger longbow out as the only offending one when it comes to projectiles like these
• i've got a feeling doing that would kill the trait off though, unless it does something in addition to providing bonus vitality
• remove dead or alive trait from game then. also; see invigorating bond. it does the same thing you're suggesting
• fair enough
• hm
• idk about other rangers but i'd prefer the duration be cut instead along a slightly less drastic nerf to % damage (10sec duration of a 40% damage increase is incredibly strong and should not last that long). downside to sic 'em is that there's no defensive utility to it, it's purely damage
• signet of stone was nerfed. it went from 8 sec to 3 sec, CD from 80 to 40. unlike warrior endure pain the duration can't be increased because there's no trait for it (yes the recharge can be lowered but brutish seals is imply not worth it)
• yeah MMS is a bit ridiculous.
• arctic wolf as a dominant pet... since when? surely you mean snow owl. personally i'm against nerfing core pets because they are heavily underused and garbage compared to xpac pets. they need more love. they need to be improved. increasing the CD though on swoop providing it gets an evasion would actually be a fair trade-off though
• more love for unused stances is always good
• i'm just happy griffon stance was changed tbh at least it's not a godawful pick anymore
• also yeah.

[mulzi.8273]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:@Ruufio.1496 @EremiteAngel.9765 Please play the profession in game for more than a minute before posting on the forums to ask for nerfs. You've both posted misinformation that does not contribute in any fashion to a balance discussion. You undermine your own arguments.

Already have a full zerk soulbeast named Pin Snipe Soulbeast to instantly kill enemy commanders with my multiple sources of unblockables and endure pain with resistance on pet for the big blob battles. Ranger as no spot in zerg fights? You have to be kidding me lmao. Power revs don't even exist anymore when I snipe them wit unblockable auto attacks from across the map.

Tell me 1800 range unblockable piercing rapid fire with quickness and 25 might and 3k+ power with invulns has no spot in a zerg lmao.

Wow, just wow. You go into a zerg fight with that build and every other will one-two shot you. Zergs push, and you will get obliterated. if you manage to stay on the outskirts, you will meet players like me on the outskirts of my zerg on a sustainable build, one-shoting these easy tomato cans. Yeah, you 'may' one shot a power rev, but the other 5+ power revs will one shot you with their CoD spam anyway. And no way you one shot a guardian commander. none. Maybe if everyone was focusing him, but in that case his power revs will eat the whole zerg in seconds. Oh, and since you are on the outskirts, you will be dead with a long walk back to your zerg. Whereas the one target you one-shot will be insta-rezzed and still fighting.

[Swagger.1459]

Let me sum up this thread...

An engineer main, that knows nothing of their own profession, seeks nerfs in areas on other professions that their main profession can do as well.

A thief main complaining about mobility and damage of another profession. Also complaining about range, but has access to some of the top gap closing, positioning and movement skills, along with access to heavy amounts of stealth... And with all those tools combined their main becomes one of the top single target combatants in the game, who can safely engage and disengage at will.

“Nerf ranger” bc some people lost a 1v1 to a skilled player on ranger.

[Larka.7683]

So I’m at the office, enjoying my special Reddit/GW2 forum time while hiding in the stall...and I see this post...

I remember you. You complained before about how OP rangers are and that there is no counterplay and how they need to be nerfed to the ground. Toxic. Uninformed. Inexperienced.

You have clearly learned nothing since your prior posts and continue to post in Ranger forums about your lack of understanding of not only your class, but others as well.

Good luck. It looks like others here have taken to responding with the negative comments, so I’ll bite my tongue, or just not waste anymore of my time.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

@Swagger.1459 said:Let me sum up this thread...

An engineer main, that knows nothing of their own profession, seeks nerfs in areas on other professions that their main profession can do as well.

A thief main complaining about mobility and damage of another profession. Also complaining about range, but has access to some of the top gap closing, positioning and movement skills, along with access to heavy amounts of stealth... And with all those tools combined their main becomes one of the top single target combatants in the game, who can safely engage and disengage at will.

“Nerf ranger” bc some people lost a 1v1 to a skilled player on ranger.

Honestly I think it’s this. Really, anyone is highly skilled in a class will make it look easy and need nerfing, And Soulbeast is no different.

The majority of rangers I face in the WvW environment, which is 99.9% of my time spent in the game, are easy to counter and I play on most classes.

[Zyreva.1078]

The majority of rangers in WvW is the opposite of "highly skilled". And yet they tend to pose a bigger threat than players of similar skill level on other classes. Thinking that only higly skilled rangers could kill others is delusional. The class has some of the strongest builds in a completely powercreeped enviroment. Nerfs need to happen sooner or later. Not only to ranger ofc, but this is the ranger forum, so discussing other classes here doesn't make much sense.So let people talk about nerfs. If you don't agree with them, point out misconceptions and correct their false claims. Provide facts. But following a pointless "no-nerf" policy without anything to back it up aside from personal attacks, just shows a lack of actual arguments. It doesn't make you look better - i don't know a single actually good player who defends the power creep that is plagueing the game - and it won't improve the class or game, because when there is no objective discussion about what and how to nerf properly, it won't be surprising, if the wrong things get nerfed in the end (not that i actually believe the forum matters, just something to think about).