You claim that doing easy mode would require doubling the amount of resources raids have. In that case i have a better proposal: do not make raid CMs - that will surely shorten the timeframe between new raid wings by half.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution
@Astralporing.1957 said:
You claim that doing easy mode would require doubling the amount of resources raids have. In that case i have a better proposal: do not make raid CMs - that will surely shorten the timeframe between new raid wings by half.
If it would generate more raid wings I would be all for it. Although we don't know how much this would change.
@Clyan.1593 said:
In general I think there should be a super easy mode, meaning you take very little dmg, but everything else is the same. You get NO reward for it, except, you can learn the mechanics.
While your suggestion is appreciated, and please don't get me wrong, this suggestion has been made before and has been shot down before.
There are a lot of insta kill mechanics in raids as it is, you cannot balance around those simply by "reducing damage". I mean how does one reduce something that kills you instantly regardless?
Also, if the damage thresh hold is too low then why bother avoiding mechanics anyway? I mean if the green on VG only does 10% health damage instead of the current 70% (or somewhere around that number) then why ever bother going for the green circle? Might not be the best example since even with 70% damage it gets out healed anyway, but i hope you get the point i'm trying to make.
See simply reducing damage in order to force people to learn mechanics is a bad suggestion in and of itself since it promotes nothing but lazy game play. Imagine someone coming from super easy mode to normal mode and then suddenly finding out he actually has to run around Sabatha's flame wall since he can no longer face tank it? Or finding out that the green @ vg actually does quite a bit of hefty damage?
Or what about Slothasor's poison? I mean if you get super low damage anyway then you might just as well drop it on top of the group if it doesn't really matter, right? Oh how i imagine people would react if someone from super easy mode comes into normal mode slothasor and just drops the poison smack dab on the group because hey: "uuh, that's what we always do in super easy mode". Sounds a bit silly, but guaranteed that this is going to happen.
And as a final small example, how does one reduce damage on Dhuum's soul split when you need to do a green circle? If you don't grab enough orbs that's game over, at least that's how it currently works. How would one go about fixing that kind of mechanic for an easier setting? You either can't, or you need to remove it all together but then the point of having people learn mechanics on lower difficulties has failed.
Of course one shot mechanics should stay, as for how they function I'd consider them to be more mechanical than just a simple dmg output.
I don't think you can't balance it. For Sloth just reduce the green poison dmg but keep the dmg from the poison you drop the same. Yes you can balance it, the idea that this isn't possible derives from the radical stance against the idea of an easy mode. For Dhuum it's the same. Just reduce the dmg on things that are not mechanical. Failing in collecting enough orbs will still be game over. And so on.
Personally I feel like you don't even try to wrap your head around it. Claiming the bosses can't be balanced in any other way as they are right now is just silly.
But isn't keeping damage the same a counter point to easy mode? I mean wasn't the whole point you tried to make that everything got reduced damage so it would be easier to learn mechanics in "super easy mode"?
You're missing the psychological point though, i mean if people get conditioned to keep in mind that something is damaging but survivable then to some degree they will learn to ignore it if the situation allows it. But then when you turn that same damaging component into an instant kill mechanic i bet you people are going to get caught off-guard by it and then they basically will have to re-learn to some extent.
So why not just skip that whole "middle-man" section and just let mechanics be mechanics and damage be damage? We already have quite a good set up with bosses of varying difficulties at the moment. The latest addition, Wing 6, is also an arguably easy experience compared to some of the older raids which is perfectly fine. If anything i would argue that Wing 6 is a perfect place to start raiding considering it's easy-to-get-into setting.
Addendum: Personally i feel like you don't even try to understand any other perspective then your own. (See what i did there?) I've read your commentary to some of the other posters and it really just seems like you're not the person to have a reasonable discussion with anyway. More like, you see us as nothing more then opponents to be conquered in some silly battle of wits or something. It just stinks of immaturity.
I mean honoustly: "You don't ask me to watch my tone, that's for starters, you're not a mod and if you can't handle it then report, but don't expect me to follow a stranger on the internet."
Really?...So you're not capable of rational unemotional discussion unless someone is literally a mod on these forums and directly asks you to watch your tone? You can't do that when someone else who isn't a mod asks you this when it's been clear you're being very antagonistic against several people already? I mean...what?
It's quite odd though right? I mean..."Grrrrrr rawr i will not follow anything a stranger says on the internet, growl!!1" But then you expect us to follow you and the points you're making while you are, in fact, a stranger to us? Seems...hypocritical....no?
You're not special Clyan...you're just not. Everything you said here has been said before. That's why multiple people have already told you to go read the whole thread because everything you brought up has been done-and-dealt-with before. Literally everything...even your immature response at this very moment has been done before okay? You're not the hero to help the pro-easy mode crowd finally get rid of us filthy anti-easy mode monsters because you, and only you, can bring forth the indisputable arguments that will finally win this glorious battle of wits. It's hilarious to even entertain the thought.
@Digit.1823 said:
Everything you said here has been said before. That's why multiple people have already told you to go read the whole thread because everything you brought up has been done-and-dealt-with before.
Said, yes. Dealt with, not really. Although it is true that we shouldn't expect the same people having different reaction now to arguments they ignored before. Still, those arguments are still there, and i see no reason to stay quiet and pretend they disappeared just because some people didn't like them.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
@Digit.1823 said:
Everything you said here has been said before. That's why multiple people have already told you to go read the whole thread because everything you brought up has been done-and-dealt-with before.
Said, yes. Dealt with, not really. Although it is true that we shouldn't expect the same people having different reaction now to arguments they ignored before. Still, those arguments are still there, and i see no reason to stay quiet and pretend they disappeared just because some people didn't like them.
That's the thing, we can't deal with most arguments. Since the discussions always (need to) stop, when it's about actuall work, since we do not have any insights on that. We can jerk our brains off as long as we like over this, but there will be no solution on our (player) side. As far as we know for now, easy mode raid is not going to happen, as long as anet says otherwise. This thread here is nothing but hot air.
I have been in this mess since the beginning, and there was not a single argument. That didn't end with guessing what's easy to make and what's not. That's no discussion, that's a guessing game. Zero value
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution
@Astralporing.1957 said:
You claim that doing easy mode would require doubling the amount of resources raids have. In that case i have a better proposal: do not make raid CMs - that will surely shorten the timeframe between new raid wings by half.
Let's take a look at Deimos CM:
Saul no longer spawns a bubble to safely block Mind Crush, however Aegis and any other self-blocks will prevent the damage from it, so use those instead. Saul can no longer be healed, so it is vital to kill as many Prides and Greeds as possible before they can damage him.
Plus some increase to Deimos Health. Basically it adds no extra mechanics to the fight, but tweaks some of them.
Let's take a look at a proposal for Vale Guardian easy mode:
Greens should take longer to explode, greens should deal less damage
Vale Guardian should have less health, Vale Guardian should have shorter break bar, Vale Guardian should deal less damage
Seekers should deal less damage, maybe even slower
Lit platforms should deal less damage and/or take longer to activate
Am I missing anything?
Now compare a CM with the proposals for easy mode and you will find that the "easy modes" proposed on these forums alter every single mechanic of the fight, while CMs either add a completely new mechanic, or do small tweaks on existing ones.
@Digit.1823 said:
Everything you said here has been said before. That's why multiple people have already told you to go read the whole thread because everything you brought up has been done-and-dealt-with before.
Said, yes. Dealt with, not really. Although it is true that we shouldn't expect the same people having different reaction now to arguments they ignored before. Still, those arguments are still there, and i see no reason to stay quiet and pretend they disappeared just because some people didn't like them.
That's the thing, we can't deal with most arguments. Since the discussions always (need to) stop, when it's about actuall work, since we do not have any insights on that. We can jerk our brains off as long as we like over this, but there will be no solution on our (player) side. As far as we know for now, easy mode raid is not going to happen, as long as anet says otherwise. This thread here is nothing but hot air.
Mount threads were also "nothing but hot air" up to a point anet released PoF. The same can be said about raid threads before HoT. Do you really believe, though, that neither of those had any impact whatsoever on Anet's decisions to introduce the very things people asked later on? Not even in the slightest?
If you don't ask for it, you won't be given it.
@Astralporing.1957 said:
You claim that doing easy mode would require doubling the amount of resources raids have. In that case i have a better proposal: do not make raid CMs - that will surely shorten the timeframe between new raid wings by half.
Let's take a look at Deimos CM:
Saul no longer spawns a bubble to safely block Mind Crush, however Aegis and any other self-blocks will prevent the damage from it, so use those instead. Saul can no longer be healed, so it is vital to kill as many Prides and Greeds as possible before they can damage him.
Plus some increase to Deimos Health. Basically it adds no extra mechanics to the fight, but tweaks some of them.
Let's take a look at a proposal for Vale Guardian easy mode:
Greens should take longer to explode, greens should deal less damage
Vale Guardian should have less health, Vale Guardian should have shorter break bar, Vale Guardian should deal less damage
Seekers should deal less damage, maybe even slower
Lit platforms should deal less damage and/or take longer to activate
Am I missing anything?
Now compare a CM with the proposals for easy mode and you will find that the "easy modes" proposed on these forums alter every single mechanic of the fight, while CMs either add a completely new mechanic, or do small tweaks on existing ones.
Yeah, let's compare that. Quadim/Dhuum CM changes for example do not make more changes that would be needed for easy mode.
Not every change included in every easy mode proposal should be included, you picked the most extensive list for VG, while in reality less damage/less health and a change to a single mechanic - basically a mirror of most CMs - would easily be enough.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
@Digit.1823 said:
Everything you said here has been said before. That's why multiple people have already told you to go read the whole thread because everything you brought up has been done-and-dealt-with before.
Said, yes. Dealt with, not really. Although it is true that we shouldn't expect the same people having different reaction now to arguments they ignored before. Still, those arguments are still there, and i see no reason to stay quiet and pretend they disappeared just because some people didn't like them.
That's the thing, we can't deal with most arguments. Since the discussions always (need to) stop, when it's about actuall work, since we do not have any insights on that. We can jerk our brains off as long as we like over this, but there will be no solution on our (player) side. As far as we know for now, easy mode raid is not going to happen, as long as anet says otherwise. This thread here is nothing but hot air.
Mount threads were also "nothing but hot air" up to a point anet released PoF. Do you really believe, though, that they had no impact whatsoever on Anet's decision of having mounts in that expac? Not even in the slightest?
@Astralporing.1957 said:
You claim that doing easy mode would require doubling the amount of resources raids have. In that case i have a better proposal: do not make raid CMs - that will surely shorten the timeframe between new raid wings by half.
Let's take a look at Deimos CM:
Saul no longer spawns a bubble to safely block Mind Crush, however Aegis and any other self-blocks will prevent the damage from it, so use those instead. Saul can no longer be healed, so it is vital to kill as many Prides and Greeds as possible before they can damage him.
Plus some increase to Deimos Health. Basically it adds no extra mechanics to the fight, but tweaks some of them.
Let's take a look at a proposal for Vale Guardian easy mode:
Greens should take longer to explode, greens should deal less damage
Vale Guardian should have less health, Vale Guardian should have shorter break bar, Vale Guardian should deal less damage
Seekers should deal less damage, maybe even slower
Lit platforms should deal less damage and/or take longer to activate
Am I missing anything?
Now compare a CM with the proposals for easy mode and you will find that the "easy modes" proposed on these forums alter every single mechanic of the fight, while CMs either add a completely new mechanic, or do small tweaks on existing ones.
Yeah, let's compare that. Quadim/Dhuum CM changes for example do not make more changes that would be needed for easy mode.
(and not every change included in every easy mode proposal should probably be included, you picked the most extensive list, while in reality less damage/less health and a tweak to a single mechanic - basically a mirror of most CMs - would easily be enough)
yes ,anet released mounts because they came to the conclusion that they could monetize this quite "easily".. which worked out quite well as it seams. not because some ppl on the forum wanted it. money leads the way. raid easy mode? how do you monetize it? exaclty.
and no, i dont think the forum had any impact. theire intern buisiness department had enough (extern)data to compare to. forums do not matter.
If people that wanted mounts did not ask for them, we likely wouldn't have mounts now. If people that wanted raids did not ask for them, we likely wouldn't have raids now. The same with easy mode - if people won't keep asking for them, we're not likely to get them. It doesn't mean that asking by itself is sure to produce results (because, obviously, it isn't), only that not asking is practically certain to get you exactly nothing.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties
@Astralporing.1957 said:
If people that wanted mounts did not ask for them, we likely wouldn't have mounts now. If people that wanted raids did not ask for them, we likely wouldn't have raids now. The same with easy mode - if people won't keep asking for them, we're not likely to get them. It doesn't mean that asking by itself is sure to produce results (because, obviously, it isn't), only that not asking is practically certain to get you exactly nothing.
You're right but it's also about the dimensions or the impact of requests.
Raids or let's take the synonym in GW2 "challenging content" was asked by a substantial and very vocal part of the community comparable to the whole PvP community or the WvW community. It was a tightened, pretty organized subcommunity with plans, ideas, guides and more things we don't even remember any more. Same thing with mounts. The keyword was used over years in the forums and reddit and was a very strong subject as well.
Maybe it's just me but I do not see this existing for an easy mode as well. I'm very sure I also mentioned it in this thread: If - and it's really an "if" - there is such a huge wanting & desire by a substantial community for easy mode raids in the whole GW2 community as we've seen for challenging content or mounts, this group should really organize themselves and make more "noise" and collect more support to have a big enough influence about the (next) orientation of the game. I don't deny threads like this one or some equivalence on reddit but you would be lying if you state that those are or were in a approximately comparable numbers like those for mounts and challenging content in the past. In addition to that it needs more than threads like this one where people exchange pro & contra arguments which most often are not verifiable from both sides!
Quite an opposite is the truth people demanding Anet to release their LS in the assigned time frame, are happy about (almost - hello Kourna) every release and putting lots of money into the game (latest NCSoft Reports) which clearly paints a picture of the existent player population being rather satisfied than disappointed about not having any kind of special content like for example an easy mode.
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution
@Astralporing.1957 said:
Not every change included in every easy mode proposal should be included, you picked the most extensive list for VG, while in reality less damage/less health and a change to a single mechanic - basically a mirror of most CMs - would easily be enough.
And this is why this entire thread has been useless since day 1. If you check just the previous few pages, what I posted is what others want from this easy mode, which is nerfing every single mechanic of the fights. If you recall back in the first few pages I even made a suggestion of making an easy mode similar to a CM, but in reverse (removing or tweaking one mechanic, at best two) but it was turned down by some of your "Easy mode" friends (others liked it though).
Making an easy mode similar to a CM is something I've been posting about since the very first thread about easy modes appeared. Yet, it's mostly the "easy mode" crowd that doesn't like it. Which is why posting about wanting an Easy mode without discussing at least some specifics about it, is a bit pointless.
@Astralporing.1957 said:
Not every change included in every easy mode proposal should be included, you picked the most extensive list for VG, while in reality less damage/less health and a change to a single mechanic - basically a mirror of most CMs - would easily be enough.
And this is why this entire thread has been useless since day 1. If you check just the previous few pages, what I posted is what others want from this easy mode, which is nerfing every single mechanic of the fights. If you recall back in the first few pages I even made a suggestion of making an easy mode similar to a CM, but in reverse (removing or tweaking one mechanic, at best two) but it was turned down by some of your "Easy mode" friends (others liked it though).
Making an easy mode similar to a CM is something I've been posting about since the very first thread about easy modes appeared. Yet, it's mostly the "easy mode" crowd that doesn't like it. Which is why posting about wanting an Easy mode without discussing at least some specifics about it, is a bit pointless.
I think this idea is pretty good honestly. I think if we use the Lair of the Snowmen as an easy mode template and adjust the bosses to those difficulties that would be great.
The thing is, someone design the Lair of the Snowmen. Could this person or team or who ever designed this thing go back and make adjustments to the current raids for an easy mode? Then slap in a watered down reward system with maybe easy mode achievements.
The people who are complaining about not being able to do this content from a lore perspective would then be satisfied at the very least. Then this dwindles the people complaining to a smaller pool of people.
@Astralporing.1957 said:
Not every change included in every easy mode proposal should be included, you picked the most extensive list for VG, while in reality less damage/less health and a change to a single mechanic - basically a mirror of most CMs - would easily be enough.
And this is why this entire thread has been useless since day 1. If you check just the previous few pages, what I posted is what others want from this easy mode, which is nerfing every single mechanic of the fights. If you recall back in the first few pages I even made a suggestion of making an easy mode similar to a CM, but in reverse (removing or tweaking one mechanic, at best two) but it was turned down by some of your "Easy mode" friends (others liked it though).
Making an easy mode similar to a CM is something I've been posting about since the very first thread about easy modes appeared. Yet, it's mostly the "easy mode" crowd that doesn't like it. Which is why posting about wanting an Easy mode without discussing at least some specifics about it, is a bit pointless.
I would be all up for reverse CM that removes 1 mech new players struggle the most in raids, e.g teleports on Carin and VG.
And I still stand on that those mod don't give full reward and/or unlock achievements from legendary armor.
Bit of shards weekly cap to 250 (?) those usual trash drops with a chance to get ascended trinket(?). Something like that
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
@Astralporing.1957 said:
Not every change included in every easy mode proposal should be included, you picked the most extensive list for VG, while in reality less damage/less health and a change to a single mechanic - basically a mirror of most CMs - would easily be enough.
And this is why this entire thread has been useless since day 1. If you check just the previous few pages, what I posted is what others want from this easy mode, which is nerfing every single mechanic of the fights. If you recall back in the first few pages I even made a suggestion of making an easy mode similar to a CM, but in reverse (removing or tweaking one mechanic, at best two) but it was turned down by some of your "Easy mode" friends (others liked it though).
Making an easy mode similar to a CM is something I've been posting about since the very first thread about easy modes appeared. Yet, it's mostly the "easy mode" crowd that doesn't like it. Which is why posting about wanting an Easy mode without discussing at least some specifics about it, is a bit pointless.
I would be all up for reverse CM that removes 1 mech new players struggle the most in raids, e.g teleports on Carin and VG.
And I still stand on that those mod don't give full reward and/or unlock achievements from legendary armor.
Bit of shards weekly cap to 250 (?) those usual trash drops with a chance to get ascended trinket(?). Something like that
Those teleports are marked with an orange border around your screen for some time now if you stand in them. Most mechanics are really well telegraphed.
@Miellyn.6847 said:
Those teleports are marked with an orange border around your screen for some time now if you stand in them. Most mechanics are really well telegraphed.
I'd suggest for easy mode at least using the old yellow border mark that was visible. The new orange one just isn't visible at all. Or at least it's less visible than the mechanic itself, which makes it of dubious usefulness.
...tbh, i wouldn't mind returning that feature to original visibility even in normal mode. As it is it's mostly just a visual distraction and doesn't really help at all.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
@Astralporing.1957 said:
Not every change included in every easy mode proposal should be included, you picked the most extensive list for VG, while in reality less damage/less health and a change to a single mechanic - basically a mirror of most CMs - would easily be enough.
And this is why this entire thread has been useless since day 1. If you check just the previous few pages, what I posted is what others want from this easy mode, which is nerfing every single mechanic of the fights. If you recall back in the first few pages I even made a suggestion of making an easy mode similar to a CM, but in reverse (removing or tweaking one mechanic, at best two) but it was turned down by some of your "Easy mode" friends (others liked it though).
Making an easy mode similar to a CM is something I've been posting about since the very first thread about easy modes appeared. Yet, it's mostly the "easy mode" crowd that doesn't like it. Which is why posting about wanting an Easy mode without discussing at least some specifics about it, is a bit pointless.
I would be all up for reverse CM that removes 1 mech new players struggle the most in raids, e.g teleports on Carin and VG.
And I still stand on that those mod don't give full reward and/or unlock achievements from legendary armor.
Bit of shards weekly cap to 250 (?) those usual trash drops with a chance to get ascended trinket(?). Something like that
Those teleports are marked with an orange border around your screen for some time now if you stand in them. Most mechanics are really well telegraphed.
Yeah I know thank you. It was just an example my guildies complain when i ran training for them.
Funny fact that yellow gets overwrites by green if reaper is in shroud.
What I meant is, there is 1 mech that causes the most trouble in almost any boss. If it's not much trouble to make a CM for people run a SINGLE time for achievement. It shouldn't be a problem to make a reverse mote, or it would?
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution
@phs.6089 said:
What I meant is, there is 1 mech that causes the most trouble in almost any boss. If it's not much trouble to make a CM for people run a SINGLE time for achievement. It shouldn't be a problem to make a reverse mote, or it would?
Well that SINGLE time achievement is supposed to be changing sometime in the future... any time now
@phs.6089 said:
What I meant is, there is 1 mech that causes the most trouble in almost any boss. If it's not much trouble to make a CM for people run a SINGLE time for achievement. It shouldn't be a problem to make a reverse mote, or it would?
Well that SINGLE time achievement is supposed to be changing sometime in the future... any time now
I wasn't asking of what would became with CMs in raids.
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
@phs.6089 said:
What I meant is, there is 1 mech that causes the most trouble in almost any boss. If it's not much trouble to make a CM for people run a SINGLE time for achievement. It shouldn't be a problem to make a reverse mote, or it would?
Well that SINGLE time achievement is supposed to be changing sometime in the future... any time now
They said they were thinking about if it could be changed. They never said they were actually working towards that goal though, so don't hold your hopes up. I mean, they are also thinking about build templates, and you know how well it went so far.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties
CM mode seems like it'd take less time to develop than an easy mode.
Easy mode actually has to hit a specific target; it needs to be able to be completed by ...% of people. I would figure this would add a fair amount of time that needs to be done in QA. Possibly they would even need to take on new QA members because the QA team plays at a certain skill level; I remember there being a mild kerfuffle over in WoW with Kil'jaeden being quite hard, caused by new members of their QA team being better at the game than who they were replacing.
CM mode doesn't. It's basically "hey what would this fight be like if we changed this mechanic" and because it's a CM and considered an optional element of the raid, there really aren't any targets on it which QA needs to deal with beyond "does it work".
It makes me think they would need to fundamentally rethink how difficulty works in raids to be able to actually deliver an effective easy mode. Maybe that's worth it. Honestly, I'd say its not, but I don't doubt that would be expected of me.
@Sarrs.4831 said:
CM mode seems like it'd take less time to develop than an easy mode.
Easy mode actually has to hit a specific target; it needs to be able to be completed by ...% of people. I would figure this would add a fair amount of time that needs to be done in QA. Possibly they would even need to take on new QA members because the QA team plays at a certain skill level; I remember there being a mild kerfuffle over in WoW with Kil'jaeden being quite hard, caused by new members of their QA team being better at the game than who they were replacing.
CM mode doesn't. It's basically "hey what would this fight be like if we changed this mechanic" and because it's a CM and considered an optional element of the raid, there really aren't any targets on it which QA needs to deal with beyond "does it work".
It makes me think they would need to fundamentally rethink how difficulty works in raids to be able to actually deliver an effective easy mode. Maybe that's worth it. Honestly, I'd say its not, but I don't doubt that would be expected of me.
That is exactly what we saying. What if they thing ;' hey what would this fight be like if we remove one mechanic' and because it will make fight bit easier, maybe people can go and get familiar with most of the fight.
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
Also, poll numbers for the record, for a total of 1022 votes:
We need both easy and hard modes - 51% - 531 votes
We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode - 7% - 78 votes
We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode - 7% - 81 votes
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties - 25% - 260 votes
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution - 7% - 72 votes
We have 65% of the voters wanting easy or hard mode, 58% wanting easy mode, and 58% wanting hard mode. Only 25% are fine with the current status of raids, against a 74% which isn't happy with the current situation.
Last episode had special food/portions from NPCs.
I guess this is the direction Arena choose to go for easy raids.
If you check there is even a special achievement to finish instance without using any of those(read: separate rewards).
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
Also, poll numbers for the record, for a total of 1022 votes:
We need both easy and hard modes - 51% - 531 votes
We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode - 7% - 78 votes
We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode - 7% - 81 votes
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties - 25% - 260 votes
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution - 7% - 72 votes
We have 65% of the voters wanting easy or hard mode, 58% wanting easy mode, and 58% wanting hard mode. Only 25% are fine with the current status of raids, against a 74% which isn't happy with the current situation.
Isnt happy with the current situation, is as vague as you can be though.
I think that there's always something to improve, and something that is niche like raids, always has a large majority of people who think it needs improvement in one way or another. Where the double improvement is the more social option. Or perhaps the 'more fair' option. ("If you get easy mode then i want harder mode")
Also, poll numbers for the record, for a total of 1022 votes:
We need both easy and hard modes - 51% - 531 votes
We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode - 7% - 78 votes
We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode - 7% - 81 votes
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties - 25% - 260 votes
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution - 7% - 72 votes
We have 65% of the voters wanting easy or hard mode, 58% wanting easy mode, and 58% wanting hard mode. Only 25% are fine with the current status of raids, against a 74% which isn't happy with the current situation.
Great video and analysis.
And the ideas Teapot raises in the video have potential in both directions - something some of us have been saying as far back as 3 years ago (in the dev thread asking what raids could be before they came out). Most of the current living story steps (like the recent fight against a certain giant dragon) could incorporate similar tools and be made into raid fights - without corrupting the easier mode experience. Using these simple tools, they could expand the game exponentially for all players - both hard core (by adding challenge to existing easy mode content) and casual (by adding easy modes to existing challenge/raid content).
The numbers show this is something the community wants (in VERY clear terms). The video shows an easy way (presumably) of accomplishing it. Hopefully, the developers are listening.
Also, poll numbers for the record, for a total of 1022 votes:
We need both easy and hard modes - 51% - 531 votes
We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode - 7% - 78 votes
We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode - 7% - 81 votes
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties - 25% - 260 votes
Raids have problems, but we need a better solution - 7% - 72 votes
We have 65% of the voters wanting easy or hard mode, 58% wanting easy mode, and 58% wanting hard mode. Only 25% are fine with the current status of raids, against a 74% which isn't happy with the current situation.
Great video and analysis.
And the ideas Teapot raises in the video have potential in both directions - something some of us have been saying as far back as 3 years ago (in the dev thread asking what raids could be before they came out). Most of the current living story steps (like the recent fight against a certain giant dragon) could incorporate similar tools and be made into raid fights - without corrupting the easier mode experience. Using these simple tools, they could expand the game exponentially for all players - both hard core (by adding challenge to existing easy mode content) and casual (by adding easy modes to existing challenge/raid content).
The numbers show this is something the community wants (in VERY clear terms). The video shows an easy way (presumably) of accomplishing it. Hopefully, the developers are listening.
The numbers show this is something half of the people who come to an easy mode debate want. Which might be a big difference.
I do believe most people in this debate already agreed they aren't against it if it doesn't take lots of development time.
@yann.1946 said:
I do believe most people in this debate already agreed they aren't against it if it doesn't take lots of development time.
From the raiders side it's more like "if it doesn't take any developer time, and if it gives the easy mode players nothing, especially nothing that would able the mode to be sustainable". There is still a number of people that seem to agree on the surface, but hedge that with requirements that are sure to sink the mode (well knowing that those would sink the mode). And then they are saying that they've made the concessions already, so the opposite side should make concessions too.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
@yann.1946 said:
I do believe most people in this debate already agreed they aren't against it if it doesn't take lots of development time.
From the raiders side it's more like "if it doesn't take any developer time, and if it gives the easy mode players nothing, especially nothing that would able the mode to be sustainable". There is still a number of people that seem to agree on the surface, but hedge that with requirements that are sure to sink the mode (well knowing that those would sink the mode). And then they are saying that they've made the concessions already, so the opposite side should make concessions too.
The problem has always been that everyone has different expectations.
Should it serve as training yes or no,
What should the rewards be because everyone has different ideas of what the difficulties should be.
Let also not forget that their have been a substantial part of the pro story mode crowd also where/are for no loot.
This debate never was two groups against eachother
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties
easiest way: and don't break balance:
add 3-5 fractal instabilities in raid, if used by activation mote, and give additionally +2 gold from each boss
no add any achiv, item's and etc
@lare.5129 said:
easiest way: and don't break balance:
add 3-5 fractal instabilities in raid, if used by activation mote, and give additionally +2 gold from each boss
no add any achiv, item's and etc
Yes, seeing how well that works for fractals currently, i see no possible way it could be imbalanced. Also, adding more instabilities on top of already difficult raid mechanics is definitely the easiest way of introducing easy mode
[/sarcasm]
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
LFR was a good idea, it helped in WoW to bring a bunch of new raiders into the scene who otherwise, wouldn't. By joining public groups automatically to learn the raids etc and progress through. Once they're good enough they can apply to to "proper" raids with raiding guilds etc.
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties
This thread....86 pages.
Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
Get good in playing your toon/Roll a chrono/Buy commander tag and make your own groups.
That's how you get into raids and kill bosses.
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties
@Hugheszie.6291 said:
LFR was a good idea, it helped in WoW to bring a bunch of new raiders into the scene who otherwise, wouldn't. By joining public groups automatically to learn the raids etc and progress through. Once they're good enough they can apply to to "proper" raids with raiding guilds etc.
LFR has about as much in common with raiding in WoW as a banana with some salad. That is: almost nothing at all.
If your definition of raiding is:
Have easy content which you zerg down with 20-40+ people and have near 0 chance of failure, then that is called open world metas here.
The only thing missing in GW2 compared to WoW LFR is a stacking buff which ensures people will succeed at the latest some tries in.
@gonandro.4768 said:
This thread....86 pages.
Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
Well, yeah, there's that. And since the player population for raids will continue to diminish, we'll probably keep getting bigger and bigger delays with each next wing. Possibly with some decreases to their difficulty (and eventually even some retroactive "rebalancing" for better accessibility, or simply a general decrease of difficulty due to power creep). There will be indeed no need for easy mode then.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties
I still much prefer the idea of having 'easy' wings of a raid and 'hard' wings of a raid and having a curve that people can get into raids on. Has any particularly interesting information come up over time or are we still just spinning wheels?
@gonandro.4768 said:
This thread....86 pages.
Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
Well, yeah, there's that. And since the player population for raids will continue to diminish, we'll probably keep getting bigger and bigger delays with each next wing. Possibly with some decreases to their difficulty (and eventually even some retroactive "rebalancing" for better accessibility, or simply a general decrease of difficulty due to power creep). There will be indeed no need for easy mode then.
Yeah no. The only reason the first 3 wings were pretty fast was because they started during HoT development. All wings after that were pretty slow. This has nothing to do with raid population. Which is still pretty healthy and doesn't care about you doomsayers.
@gonandro.4768 said:
This thread....86 pages.
Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
Well, yeah, there's that. And since the player population for raids will continue to diminish, we'll probably keep getting bigger and bigger delays with each next wing. Possibly with some decreases to their difficulty (and eventually even some retroactive "rebalancing" for better accessibility, or simply a general decrease of difficulty due to power creep). There will be indeed no need for easy mode then.
Yeah no. The only reason the first 3 wings were pretty fast was because they started during HoT development. All wings after that were pretty slow. This has nothing to do with raid population. Which is still pretty healthy and doesn't care about you doomsayers.
Also important to note is that the release cadence of lw has slowed in general.
@yann.1946 said:
I do believe most people in this debate already agreed they aren't against it if it doesn't take lots of development time.
From the raiders side it's more like "if it doesn't take any developer time, and if it gives the easy mode players nothing, especially nothing that would able the mode to be sustainable". There is still a number of people that seem to agree on the surface, but hedge that with requirements that are sure to sink the mode (well knowing that those would sink the mode). And then they are saying that they've made the concessions already, so the opposite side should make concessions too.
Well people seem to ask for a open world boss fight level of difficulty. (But scaled to 10 players)
So it should have the same rewards as that right?
@gonandro.4768 said:
This thread....86 pages.
Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
Well, yeah, there's that. And since the player population for raids will continue to diminish, we'll probably keep getting bigger and bigger delays with each next wing. Possibly with some decreases to their difficulty (and eventually even some retroactive "rebalancing" for better accessibility, or simply a general decrease of difficulty due to power creep). There will be indeed no need for easy mode then.
Yeah no. The only reason the first 3 wings were pretty fast was because they started during HoT development. All wings after that were pretty slow. This has nothing to do with raid population. Which is still pretty healthy and doesn't care about you doomsayers.
I get it you didn't see the message about DnT disbanding and the stated reason behind it? And they are not the only ones. Old guilds disband, veteran raiders stop playing, and the influx of new players is way too small to cover that.
It's not a prediction, or "doomsaying". It might have been when i was saying this long time ago, when raids have just started, but now it has already became reality.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
@gonandro.4768 said:
This thread....86 pages.
Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
Well, yeah, there's that. And since the player population for raids will continue to diminish, we'll probably keep getting bigger and bigger delays with each next wing. Possibly with some decreases to their difficulty (and eventually even some retroactive "rebalancing" for better accessibility, or simply a general decrease of difficulty due to power creep). There will be indeed no need for easy mode then.
Yeah no. The only reason the first 3 wings were pretty fast was because they started during HoT development. All wings after that were pretty slow. This has nothing to do with raid population. Which is still pretty healthy and doesn't care about you doomsayers.
I get it you didn't see the message about DnT disbanding and the stated reason behind it? And they are not the only ones. Old guilds disband, veteran raiders stop playing, and the influx of new players is way too small to cover that.
It's not a prediction, or "doomsaying". It might have been when i was saying this long time ago, when raids have just started, but now it has already became reality.
Well, everyone predicted the game to become less populated. This is and has never been a miracle, you'll expect this in every game. It's already affecting some harder map metas like Vabbi where you really need to look for communities doing it from time to time/on a fixed schedule which means relying on websites etc.
The only thing I agree to is that again some recent changes - a.k.a. some of the fractal instabilities + the new one - have again thrown out & excluded players from content that was accessible without bigger problems.
In my surroundings more than 10 players have stopped playing within the last 2 months - most of them shortly after LS release because it also offered less than some of the releases before. The changes to Istan some months ago and the recent ones aren't positive trends as well since it makes no sense to gut things that were well-visited (although not by me).
@gonandro.4768 said:
This thread....86 pages.
Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
Well, yeah, there's that. And since the player population for raids will continue to diminish, we'll probably keep getting bigger and bigger delays with each next wing. Possibly with some decreases to their difficulty (and eventually even some retroactive "rebalancing" for better accessibility, or simply a general decrease of difficulty due to power creep). There will be indeed no need for easy mode then.
Yeah no. The only reason the first 3 wings were pretty fast was because they started during HoT development. All wings after that were pretty slow. This has nothing to do with raid population. Which is still pretty healthy and doesn't care about you doomsayers.
I get it you didn't see the message about DnT disbanding and the stated reason behind it? And they are not the only ones. Old guilds disband, veteran raiders stop playing, and the influx of new players is way too small to cover that.
It's not a prediction, or "doomsaying". It might have been when i was saying this long time ago, when raids have just started, but now it has already became reality.
So your solution is to instead of bringing out more content, offer multiple difficulties for established content. DnT was a hardcore raid guild (not to mention they pretty much became irrelevant 2 years ago or longer). Them leaving the game will have not been affected by easy mode difficulty. The reason they gave was that even though the new wing was good, it was not difficult enough to hold people's interest.
Here is what it boils down to in essence:
Easy mode requires extra developer resources devoted to raiding content. More developer resources to raid content means the game becomes more raid focused. More raid focus means it might potentially drive away players who are not interested in raids (as another flip side). It's literally the same thing which happened to WoW years ago. Their over focus on raids and gear has stripped the game of any actual content beside that and left the player base addicted to a constant gear thread mill. Now that one of the expansions has not delivered on this core premise, the game is hemorrhaging players like never seen before.
If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.
Easy mode raids is not the solution to lacking content. Please don't mix those 2 things up.
@Cyninja.2954 said:
So your solution is to instead of bringing out more content, offer multiple difficulties for established content.
Nah, it's 2 years too late for that, to be honest. Now i'd rather see the already existing raid content become open to a wider group of players, because apparently the group it was originally intended for simply cannot be satisfied by the amount of effort Anet is willing to devote to it. Which at least some of us have been saying from the beginning, by the way.
DnT was a hardcore raid guild (not to mention they pretty much became irrelevant 2 years ago or longer). Them leaving the game will have not been affected by easy mode difficulty.
Not directly, but indirectly, they were. See below.
The reason they gave was that even though the new wing was good, it was not difficult enough to hold people's interest.
That's one of the reasons they gave. The other was a significant declining of NA raiding scene, and the fact there were no new players to replace those who left. To quote Nike: "There simply is no new pool of up and coming players to recruit from".
Easy mode introduced early enough might have provided such a pool, or at least helped in sustaining it. Now it's probably way too late for that, though.
If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.
Yeah, the possibility of raids getting abandoned is there as well. Like with dungeons, would be a pity (since that content is already there, the game should at least try to use it better).
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
@Cyninja.2954 said:
So your solution is to instead of bringing out more content, offer multiple difficulties for established content.
Nah, it's 2 years too late for that, to be honest. Now i'd rather see the already existing raid content become open to a wider group of players, because apparently the group it was originally intended for simply cannot be satisfied by the amount of effort Anet is willing to devote to it. Which at least some of us have been saying from the beginning, by the way.
DnT was a hardcore raid guild (not to mention they pretty much became irrelevant 2 years ago or longer). Them leaving the game will have not been affected by easy mode difficulty.
Not directly, but indirectly, they were. See below.
The reason they gave was that even though the new wing was good, it was not difficult enough to hold people's interest.
That's one of the reasons they gave. The other was a significant declining of NA raiding scene, and the fact there were no new players to replace those who left. To quote Nike: "There simply is no new pool of up and coming players to recruit from".
Easy mode introduced early enough might have provided such a pool, or at least helped in sustaining it. Now it's probably way too late for that, though.
If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.
Yeah, the possibility of raids getting abandoned is there as well. Like with dungeons, would be a pity (since that content is already there, the game should at least try to use it better).
Please don't selectively read the tweet:
Foremost, Wing 6 did not reinvigorate the raid community, and our guild, the way wing 5 did. This was Arenanet’s fault and simply a case of to little to late. That said, Wing 6 is great, and makes a valuable addition to the game, but it was simply not enough after then months of raid content drought. The fights, while fun, are too straitforward and were too easily “solved from as peed clear perspective to encourage real competition and innovation.
Secondly, as a result of the long content drought between Win 5 and 6, the NA raid scene declined significantly. After the realease of each raid wing we historically saw a bug rise in the amount of applications to join the guild from skilled players looking to make the leap to a speedclear guild. This did not happen after Wing 6. There is no new pool of up and coming players to recruit from, or if there is, I certainly don’t know about it.
You selectively decided to omit the entire 2 paragraph explanation of why the guild decided to disband in favor of focusing on the last sentence, which in context does not even support your claim. DnT was looking for new high skilled players. No one who needs easy mode raids would have even remotely fit that description.
Furthermore Nike clearly pinpoints the problem he sees in a lack of content.
The DnT disband is the complete opposite of an advocate or reason to bring easy mode raids (or even go remotely in the direction of making raids easier as a whole). Now one can argue about if easy mode raids would produce enough skilled raiders in the first place by exposing people to the content, but even that is hard to prove. Harder living world episodes don't seem to do the trick with the vast majority of the player base.
I remain by my point, while I enjoy raids and do also feel the problems arising from people dropping out, I do not feel that GW2 should become more raid centric.
@Cyninja.2954 said:
You selectively decided to omit the entire 2 paragraph explanation of why the guild decided to disband in favor of focusing on the last sentence, which in context does not even support your claim. DnT was looking for new high skilled players. No one who needs easy mode raids would have even remotely fit that description.
Yes, most probably. But easy raids might have influenced the influx of new players to the normal raiding as well, and this would result in a greater pool of skilled players. And it's not only about direct influx (conversion from easy mode to normal mode), but also about the perception of raids. At this moment, there are many players that are probably good enough that they would have been okay in normal raids, but will never see that, because they are too scared of the raids' reputation. Easy mode might have partially countermanded it.
Furthermore Nike clearly pinpoints the problem he sees in a lack of content.
That's how he sees it, yes. It's entirely possible however that, if the raiding scene did not diminish that much, because there would have been a bigger influx of new players, they would not have made the same decision.
The DnT disband is the complete opposite of an advocate or reason to bring easy mode raids (or even go remotely in the direction of making raids easier as a whole).
I don't really see it that way. I'm pretty sure that it is exactly the difficulty level aimed at only highly skilled players that slowly kills the raid scene.
Now one can argue about if easy mode raids would produce enough skilled raiders in the first place by exposing people to the content, but even that is hard to prove.
Or it might have given a chance for players that do have skill, but never got into raiding for reasons other than that.
Harder living world episodes don't seem to do the trick with the vast majority of the player base.
Vast majority of playerbase cannot be trained, that's true. On the other hand, even an increase of skilled players for raids that would be insignificant when looking at the whole playerbase, might be huge when compared to the raid population.
I remain by my point, while I enjoy raids and do also feel the problems arising from people dropping out, I do not feel that GW2 should become more raid centric.
Neither do i. At this point i'd say that it would be better if GW2 shifted its focus even further away from the hardcore community. After all, by hindsight, Raids do seem to be an effort mostly wasted. The people that Anet tried to bring in/keep using them are going to leave anyway.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
@Cyninja.2954 said:
You selectively decided to omit the entire 2 paragraph explanation of why the guild decided to disband in favor of focusing on the last sentence, which in context does not even support your claim. DnT was looking for new high skilled players. No one who needs easy mode raids would have even remotely fit that description.
Yes, most probably. But easy raids might have influenced the influx of new players to the normal raiding as well, and this would result in a greater pool of skilled players. And it's not only about direct influx (conversion from easy mode to normal mode), but also about the perception of raids. At this moment, there are many players that are probably good enough that they would have been okay in normal raids, but will never see that, because they are too scared of the raids' reputation. Easy mode might have partially countermanded it.
Furthermore Nike clearly pinpoints the problem he sees in a lack of content.
That's how he sees it, yes. It's entirely possible however that, if the raiding scene did not diminish that much, because there would have been a bigger influx of new players, they would not have made the same decision.
The DnT disband is the complete opposite of an advocate or reason to bring easy mode raids (or even go remotely in the direction of making raids easier as a whole).
I don't really see it that way. I'm pretty sure that it is exactly the difficulty level aimed at only highly skilled players that slowly kills the raid scene.
Now one can argue about if easy mode raids would produce enough skilled raiders in the first place by exposing people to the content, but even that is hard to prove.
Or it might have given a chance for players that do have skill, but never got into raiding for reasons other than that.
Harder living world episodes don't seem to do the trick with the vast majority of the player base.
Vast majority of playerbase cannot be trained, that's true. On the other hand, even an increase of skilled players for raids that would be insignificant when looking at the whole playerbase, might be huge when compared to the raid population.
I remain by my point, while I enjoy raids and do also feel the problems arising from people dropping out, I do not feel that GW2 should become more raid centric.
Neither do i. At this point i'd say that it would be better if GW2 shifted its focus even further away from the hardcore community. After all, by hindsight, Raids do seem to be an effort mostly wasted. The people that Anet tried to bring in/keep using them are going to leave anyway.
No easy mode wouldn't produce any high skilled player. It has been proven now over multiple games that easy modes do no increase the population in difficulties over easy mode and worse sometimes decrease the population towards easy mode. It is useless as a training mode and people that are skilled enough to play normal would play it anyway.
@Miellyn.6847 said:
No easy mode wouldn't produce any high skilled player. It has been proven now over multiple games that easy modes do no increase the population in difficulties over easy mode and worse sometimes decrease the population towards easy mode. It is useless as a training mode and people that are skilled enough to play normal would play it anyway.
WoW way is not the only way it can be done (and even then, the conversion is supposedly bad only for the lowest level to the next one. Alll the Mythic players did come from lower difficulty levels though). In other games though it does seem to work better. For FFXIV apparently it works really fine, for example.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
More Raids like Snowmen's Lair, 6 years I've been playing, and never enjoyed that content due to Elitist and those awful METAS. I don't want to be rejected anymore and having unexplored areas on my world map locked behind that. ME and SEVERAL of my friends want an EASY mode, requiring only 5 PLAYERS where everyone can come with the build they have, like we've done with SECRET LAIR OF THE SNOWMEN. Every patch I see "new raid" I'm crying bcause at the contrary of Fractals, Living story, WvW which are accessible, raids aren't, and I find the idea of locking explorable maps behind raids horrible. (Yeah they are explorable map with a ton of awesome lore, and that's sad I can't experience it 6years after the beginning of the game). I play with my own full ascended set and will not trade it for another corresponding to meta just to fit a role corresponding to a play-style I hate.
GUESS I will stay with several unexplored maps on my world map 6 more years!
@Tyson.5160 said:
I think this idea is pretty good honestly. I think if we use the Lair of the Snowmen as an easy mode template and adjust the bosses to those difficulties that would be great.
The thing is, someone design the Lair of the Snowmen. Could this person or team or who ever designed this thing go back and make adjustments to the current raids for an easy mode? Then slap in a watered down reward system with maybe easy mode achievements.
The people who are complaining about not being able to do this content from a lore perspective would then be satisfied at the very least. Then this dwindles the people complaining to a smaller pool of people.
Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties
@hugo.4705 said:
More Raids like Snowmen's Lair, 6 years I've been playing, and never enjoyed that content due to Elitist and those awful METAS. I don't want to be rejected anymore and having unexplored areas on my world map locked behind that. ME and SEVERAL of my friends want an EASY mode, requiring only 5 PLAYERS where everyone can come with the build they have, like we've done with SECRET LAIR OF THE SNOWMEN. Every patch I see "new raid" I'm crying bcause at the contrary of Fractals, Living story, WvW which are accessible, raids aren't, and I find the idea of locking explorable maps behind raids horrible. (Yeah they are explorable map with a ton of awesome lore, and that's sad I can't experience it 6years after the beginning of the game). I play with my own full ascended set and will not trade it for another corresponding to meta just to fit a role corresponding to a play-style I hate.
GUESS I will stay with several unexplored maps on my world map 6 more years!
Why not have a look at the lfg and join the ones offering a cleared wing? You'll explore everything (100%!) and additionally you can experience the lore because it's literally laying on the ground in form of notes, books w/e. Bosses and the few cut scenes don't add anything. Most of them can be watched as well in a cleared instance.
Seems like we have a heavy lack of information here.
Comments
You claim that doing easy mode would require doubling the amount of resources raids have. In that case i have a better proposal: do not make raid CMs - that will surely shorten the timeframe between new raid wings by half.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
If it would generate more raid wings I would be all for it. Although we don't know how much this would change.
But isn't keeping damage the same a counter point to easy mode? I mean wasn't the whole point you tried to make that everything got reduced damage so it would be easier to learn mechanics in "super easy mode"?
You're missing the psychological point though, i mean if people get conditioned to keep in mind that something is damaging but survivable then to some degree they will learn to ignore it if the situation allows it. But then when you turn that same damaging component into an instant kill mechanic i bet you people are going to get caught off-guard by it and then they basically will have to re-learn to some extent.
So why not just skip that whole "middle-man" section and just let mechanics be mechanics and damage be damage? We already have quite a good set up with bosses of varying difficulties at the moment. The latest addition, Wing 6, is also an arguably easy experience compared to some of the older raids which is perfectly fine. If anything i would argue that Wing 6 is a perfect place to start raiding considering it's easy-to-get-into setting.
Addendum: Personally i feel like you don't even try to understand any other perspective then your own. (See what i did there?) I've read your commentary to some of the other posters and it really just seems like you're not the person to have a reasonable discussion with anyway. More like, you see us as nothing more then opponents to be conquered in some silly battle of wits or something. It just stinks of immaturity.
I mean honoustly: "You don't ask me to watch my tone, that's for starters, you're not a mod and if you can't handle it then report, but don't expect me to follow a stranger on the internet."
Really?...So you're not capable of rational unemotional discussion unless someone is literally a mod on these forums and directly asks you to watch your tone? You can't do that when someone else who isn't a mod asks you this when it's been clear you're being very antagonistic against several people already? I mean...what?
It's quite odd though right? I mean..."Grrrrrr rawr i will not follow anything a stranger says on the internet, growl!!1" But then you expect us to follow you and the points you're making while you are, in fact, a stranger to us? Seems...hypocritical....no?
You're not special Clyan...you're just not. Everything you said here has been said before. That's why multiple people have already told you to go read the whole thread because everything you brought up has been done-and-dealt-with before. Literally everything...even your immature response at this very moment has been done before okay? You're not the hero to help the pro-easy mode crowd finally get rid of us filthy anti-easy mode monsters because you, and only you, can bring forth the indisputable arguments that will finally win this glorious battle of wits. It's hilarious to even entertain the thought.
Said, yes. Dealt with, not really. Although it is true that we shouldn't expect the same people having different reaction now to arguments they ignored before. Still, those arguments are still there, and i see no reason to stay quiet and pretend they disappeared just because some people didn't like them.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
That's the thing, we can't deal with most arguments. Since the discussions always (need to) stop, when it's about actuall work, since we do not have any insights on that. We can jerk our brains off as long as we like over this, but there will be no solution on our (player) side. As far as we know for now, easy mode raid is not going to happen, as long as anet says otherwise. This thread here is nothing but hot air.
I have been in this mess since the beginning, and there was not a single argument. That didn't end with guessing what's easy to make and what's not. That's no discussion, that's a guessing game. Zero value
Let's take a look at Deimos CM:
Plus some increase to Deimos Health. Basically it adds no extra mechanics to the fight, but tweaks some of them.
Let's take a look at a proposal for Vale Guardian easy mode:
Greens should take longer to explode, greens should deal less damage
Vale Guardian should have less health, Vale Guardian should have shorter break bar, Vale Guardian should deal less damage
Seekers should deal less damage, maybe even slower
Lit platforms should deal less damage and/or take longer to activate
Am I missing anything?
Now compare a CM with the proposals for easy mode and you will find that the "easy modes" proposed on these forums alter every single mechanic of the fight, while CMs either add a completely new mechanic, or do small tweaks on existing ones.
Mount threads were also "nothing but hot air" up to a point anet released PoF. The same can be said about raid threads before HoT. Do you really believe, though, that neither of those had any impact whatsoever on Anet's decisions to introduce the very things people asked later on? Not even in the slightest?
If you don't ask for it, you won't be given it.
Yeah, let's compare that. Quadim/Dhuum CM changes for example do not make more changes that would be needed for easy mode.
Not every change included in every easy mode proposal should be included, you picked the most extensive list for VG, while in reality less damage/less health and a change to a single mechanic - basically a mirror of most CMs - would easily be enough.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
yes ,anet released mounts because they came to the conclusion that they could monetize this quite "easily".. which worked out quite well as it seams. not because some ppl on the forum wanted it. money leads the way. raid easy mode? how do you monetize it? exaclty.
and no, i dont think the forum had any impact. theire intern buisiness department had enough (extern)data to compare to. forums do not matter.
Edit: and we are back to the guessing game. yay.
If people that wanted mounts did not ask for them, we likely wouldn't have mounts now. If people that wanted raids did not ask for them, we likely wouldn't have raids now. The same with easy mode - if people won't keep asking for them, we're not likely to get them. It doesn't mean that asking by itself is sure to produce results (because, obviously, it isn't), only that not asking is practically certain to get you exactly nothing.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
You're right but it's also about the dimensions or the impact of requests.
Raids or let's take the synonym in GW2 "challenging content" was asked by a substantial and very vocal part of the community comparable to the whole PvP community or the WvW community. It was a tightened, pretty organized subcommunity with plans, ideas, guides and more things we don't even remember any more. Same thing with mounts. The keyword was used over years in the forums and reddit and was a very strong subject as well.
Maybe it's just me but I do not see this existing for an easy mode as well. I'm very sure I also mentioned it in this thread: If - and it's really an "if" - there is such a huge wanting & desire by a substantial community for easy mode raids in the whole GW2 community as we've seen for challenging content or mounts, this group should really organize themselves and make more "noise" and collect more support to have a big enough influence about the (next) orientation of the game. I don't deny threads like this one or some equivalence on reddit but you would be lying if you state that those are or were in a approximately comparable numbers like those for mounts and challenging content in the past. In addition to that it needs more than threads like this one where people exchange pro & contra arguments which most often are not verifiable from both sides!
Quite an opposite is the truth people demanding Anet to release their LS in the assigned time frame, are happy about (almost - hello Kourna) every release and putting lots of money into the game (latest NCSoft Reports) which clearly paints a picture of the existent player population being rather satisfied than disappointed about not having any kind of special content like for example an easy mode.
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And this is why this entire thread has been useless since day 1. If you check just the previous few pages, what I posted is what others want from this easy mode, which is nerfing every single mechanic of the fights. If you recall back in the first few pages I even made a suggestion of making an easy mode similar to a CM, but in reverse (removing or tweaking one mechanic, at best two) but it was turned down by some of your "Easy mode" friends (others liked it though).
Making an easy mode similar to a CM is something I've been posting about since the very first thread about easy modes appeared. Yet, it's mostly the "easy mode" crowd that doesn't like it. Which is why posting about wanting an Easy mode without discussing at least some specifics about it, is a bit pointless.
I think this idea is pretty good honestly. I think if we use the Lair of the Snowmen as an easy mode template and adjust the bosses to those difficulties that would be great.
The thing is, someone design the Lair of the Snowmen. Could this person or team or who ever designed this thing go back and make adjustments to the current raids for an easy mode? Then slap in a watered down reward system with maybe easy mode achievements.
The people who are complaining about not being able to do this content from a lore perspective would then be satisfied at the very least. Then this dwindles the people complaining to a smaller pool of people.
I would be all up for reverse CM that removes 1 mech new players struggle the most in raids, e.g teleports on Carin and VG.
And I still stand on that those mod don't give full reward and/or unlock achievements from legendary armor.
Bit of shards weekly cap to 250 (?) those usual trash drops with a chance to get ascended trinket(?). Something like that
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
Those teleports are marked with an orange border around your screen for some time now if you stand in them. Most mechanics are really well telegraphed.
I'd suggest for easy mode at least using the old yellow border mark that was visible. The new orange one just isn't visible at all. Or at least it's less visible than the mechanic itself, which makes it of dubious usefulness.
...tbh, i wouldn't mind returning that feature to original visibility even in normal mode. As it is it's mostly just a visual distraction and doesn't really help at all.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
Yeah I know thank you. It was just an example my guildies complain when i ran training for them.
Funny fact that yellow gets overwrites by green if reaper is in shroud.
What I meant is, there is 1 mech that causes the most trouble in almost any boss. If it's not much trouble to make a CM for people run a SINGLE time for achievement. It shouldn't be a problem to make a reverse mote, or it would?
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
Well that SINGLE time achievement is supposed to be changing sometime in the future... any time now
I wasn't asking of what would became with CMs in raids.
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
They said they were thinking about if it could be changed. They never said they were actually working towards that goal though, so don't hold your hopes up. I mean, they are also thinking about build templates, and you know how well it went so far.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
CM mode seems like it'd take less time to develop than an easy mode.
Easy mode actually has to hit a specific target; it needs to be able to be completed by ...% of people. I would figure this would add a fair amount of time that needs to be done in QA. Possibly they would even need to take on new QA members because the QA team plays at a certain skill level; I remember there being a mild kerfuffle over in WoW with Kil'jaeden being quite hard, caused by new members of their QA team being better at the game than who they were replacing.
CM mode doesn't. It's basically "hey what would this fight be like if we changed this mechanic" and because it's a CM and considered an optional element of the raid, there really aren't any targets on it which QA needs to deal with beyond "does it work".
It makes me think they would need to fundamentally rethink how difficulty works in raids to be able to actually deliver an effective easy mode. Maybe that's worth it. Honestly, I'd say its not, but I don't doubt that would be expected of me.
That is exactly what we saying. What if they thing ;' hey what would this fight be like if we remove one mechanic' and because it will make fight bit easier, maybe people can go and get familiar with most of the fight.
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
Good video about the topic:
Also, poll numbers for the record, for a total of 1022 votes:
We have 65% of the voters wanting easy or hard mode, 58% wanting easy mode, and 58% wanting hard mode. Only 25% are fine with the current status of raids, against a 74% which isn't happy with the current situation.
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Last episode had special food/portions from NPCs.
I guess this is the direction Arena choose to go for easy raids.
If you check there is even a special achievement to finish instance without using any of those(read: separate rewards).
"There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."
ofc no split needed. That only can additionally separate players
want solid balance ? - play chess.
Isnt happy with the current situation, is as vague as you can be though.
I think that there's always something to improve, and something that is niche like raids, always has a large majority of people who think it needs improvement in one way or another. Where the double improvement is the more social option. Or perhaps the 'more fair' option. ("If you get easy mode then i want harder mode")
Great video and analysis.
And the ideas Teapot raises in the video have potential in both directions - something some of us have been saying as far back as 3 years ago (in the dev thread asking what raids could be before they came out). Most of the current living story steps (like the recent fight against a certain giant dragon) could incorporate similar tools and be made into raid fights - without corrupting the easier mode experience. Using these simple tools, they could expand the game exponentially for all players - both hard core (by adding challenge to existing easy mode content) and casual (by adding easy modes to existing challenge/raid content).
The numbers show this is something the community wants (in VERY clear terms). The video shows an easy way (presumably) of accomplishing it. Hopefully, the developers are listening.
The numbers show this is something half of the people who come to an easy mode debate want. Which might be a big difference.
I do believe most people in this debate already agreed they aren't against it if it doesn't take lots of development time.
From the raiders side it's more like "if it doesn't take any developer time, and if it gives the easy mode players nothing, especially nothing that would able the mode to be sustainable". There is still a number of people that seem to agree on the surface, but hedge that with requirements that are sure to sink the mode (well knowing that those would sink the mode). And then they are saying that they've made the concessions already, so the opposite side should make concessions too.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
The problem has always been that everyone has different expectations.
Should it serve as training yes or no,
What should the rewards be because everyone has different ideas of what the difficulties should be.
Let also not forget that their have been a substantial part of the pro story mode crowd also where/are for no loot.
This debate never was two groups against eachother
easiest way: and don't break balance:
add 3-5 fractal instabilities in raid, if used by activation mote, and give additionally +2 gold from each boss
no add any achiv, item's and etc
want solid balance ? - play chess.
Yes, seeing how well that works for fractals currently, i see no possible way it could be imbalanced. Also, adding more instabilities on top of already difficult raid mechanics is definitely the easiest way of introducing easy mode
[/sarcasm]
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
LFR was a good idea, it helped in WoW to bring a bunch of new raiders into the scene who otherwise, wouldn't. By joining public groups automatically to learn the raids etc and progress through. Once they're good enough they can apply to to "proper" raids with raiding guilds etc.
This thread....86 pages.
Ok let's be realistic, easy mode is NOT gonna happen. We got 1 (O N E) Raid wing in 2018.
Get good in playing your toon/Roll a chrono/Buy commander tag and make your own groups.
That's how you get into raids and kill bosses.
Peace.
LFR has about as much in common with raiding in WoW as a banana with some salad. That is: almost nothing at all.
If your definition of raiding is:
Have easy content which you zerg down with 20-40+ people and have near 0 chance of failure, then that is called open world metas here.
The only thing missing in GW2 compared to WoW LFR is a stacking buff which ensures people will succeed at the latest some tries in.
Well, yeah, there's that. And since the player population for raids will continue to diminish, we'll probably keep getting bigger and bigger delays with each next wing. Possibly with some decreases to their difficulty (and eventually even some retroactive "rebalancing" for better accessibility, or simply a general decrease of difficulty due to power creep). There will be indeed no need for easy mode then.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
I still much prefer the idea of having 'easy' wings of a raid and 'hard' wings of a raid and having a curve that people can get into raids on. Has any particularly interesting information come up over time or are we still just spinning wheels?
Yeah no. The only reason the first 3 wings were pretty fast was because they started during HoT development. All wings after that were pretty slow. This has nothing to do with raid population. Which is still pretty healthy and doesn't care about you doomsayers.
Also important to note is that the release cadence of lw has slowed in general.
Well people seem to ask for a open world boss fight level of difficulty. (But scaled to 10 players)
So it should have the same rewards as that right?
I get it you didn't see the message about DnT disbanding and the stated reason behind it? And they are not the only ones. Old guilds disband, veteran raiders stop playing, and the influx of new players is way too small to cover that.
It's not a prediction, or "doomsaying". It might have been when i was saying this long time ago, when raids have just started, but now it has already became reality.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
Well, everyone predicted the game to become less populated. This is and has never been a miracle, you'll expect this in every game. It's already affecting some harder map metas like Vabbi where you really need to look for communities doing it from time to time/on a fixed schedule which means relying on websites etc.
The only thing I agree to is that again some recent changes - a.k.a. some of the fractal instabilities + the new one - have again thrown out & excluded players from content that was accessible without bigger problems.
In my surroundings more than 10 players have stopped playing within the last 2 months - most of them shortly after LS release because it also offered less than some of the releases before. The changes to Istan some months ago and the recent ones aren't positive trends as well since it makes no sense to gut things that were well-visited (although not by me).
R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019
So your solution is to instead of bringing out more content, offer multiple difficulties for established content. DnT was a hardcore raid guild (not to mention they pretty much became irrelevant 2 years ago or longer). Them leaving the game will have not been affected by easy mode difficulty. The reason they gave was that even though the new wing was good, it was not difficult enough to hold people's interest.
Here is what it boils down to in essence:
Easy mode requires extra developer resources devoted to raiding content. More developer resources to raid content means the game becomes more raid focused. More raid focus means it might potentially drive away players who are not interested in raids (as another flip side). It's literally the same thing which happened to WoW years ago. Their over focus on raids and gear has stripped the game of any actual content beside that and left the player base addicted to a constant gear thread mill. Now that one of the expansions has not delivered on this core premise, the game is hemorrhaging players like never seen before.
If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.
Easy mode raids is not the solution to lacking content. Please don't mix those 2 things up.
Nah, it's 2 years too late for that, to be honest. Now i'd rather see the already existing raid content become open to a wider group of players, because apparently the group it was originally intended for simply cannot be satisfied by the amount of effort Anet is willing to devote to it. Which at least some of us have been saying from the beginning, by the way.
Not directly, but indirectly, they were. See below.
That's one of the reasons they gave. The other was a significant declining of NA raiding scene, and the fact there were no new players to replace those who left. To quote Nike: "There simply is no new pool of up and coming players to recruit from".
Easy mode introduced early enough might have provided such a pool, or at least helped in sustaining it. Now it's probably way too late for that, though.
Yeah, the possibility of raids getting abandoned is there as well. Like with dungeons, would be a pity (since that content is already there, the game should at least try to use it better).
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
Please don't selectively read the tweet:
You selectively decided to omit the entire 2 paragraph explanation of why the guild decided to disband in favor of focusing on the last sentence, which in context does not even support your claim. DnT was looking for new high skilled players. No one who needs easy mode raids would have even remotely fit that description.
Furthermore Nike clearly pinpoints the problem he sees in a lack of content.
The DnT disband is the complete opposite of an advocate or reason to bring easy mode raids (or even go remotely in the direction of making raids easier as a whole). Now one can argue about if easy mode raids would produce enough skilled raiders in the first place by exposing people to the content, but even that is hard to prove. Harder living world episodes don't seem to do the trick with the vast majority of the player base.
I remain by my point, while I enjoy raids and do also feel the problems arising from people dropping out, I do not feel that GW2 should become more raid centric.
Yes, most probably. But easy raids might have influenced the influx of new players to the normal raiding as well, and this would result in a greater pool of skilled players. And it's not only about direct influx (conversion from easy mode to normal mode), but also about the perception of raids. At this moment, there are many players that are probably good enough that they would have been okay in normal raids, but will never see that, because they are too scared of the raids' reputation. Easy mode might have partially countermanded it.
That's how he sees it, yes. It's entirely possible however that, if the raiding scene did not diminish that much, because there would have been a bigger influx of new players, they would not have made the same decision.
I don't really see it that way. I'm pretty sure that it is exactly the difficulty level aimed at only highly skilled players that slowly kills the raid scene.
Or it might have given a chance for players that do have skill, but never got into raiding for reasons other than that.
Vast majority of playerbase cannot be trained, that's true. On the other hand, even an increase of skilled players for raids that would be insignificant when looking at the whole playerbase, might be huge when compared to the raid population.
Neither do i. At this point i'd say that it would be better if GW2 shifted its focus even further away from the hardcore community. After all, by hindsight, Raids do seem to be an effort mostly wasted. The people that Anet tried to bring in/keep using them are going to leave anyway.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
No easy mode wouldn't produce any high skilled player. It has been proven now over multiple games that easy modes do no increase the population in difficulties over easy mode and worse sometimes decrease the population towards easy mode. It is useless as a training mode and people that are skilled enough to play normal would play it anyway.
WoW way is not the only way it can be done (and even then, the conversion is supposedly bad only for the lowest level to the next one. Alll the Mythic players did come from lower difficulty levels though). In other games though it does seem to work better. For FFXIV apparently it works really fine, for example.
The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.
More Raids like Snowmen's Lair, 6 years I've been playing, and never enjoyed that content due to Elitist and those awful METAS. I don't want to be rejected anymore and having unexplored areas on my world map locked behind that. ME and SEVERAL of my friends want an EASY mode, requiring only 5 PLAYERS where everyone can come with the build they have, like we've done with SECRET LAIR OF THE SNOWMEN. Every patch I see "new raid" I'm crying bcause at the contrary of Fractals, Living story, WvW which are accessible, raids aren't, and I find the idea of locking explorable maps behind raids horrible. (Yeah they are explorable map with a ton of awesome lore, and that's sad I can't experience it 6years after the beginning of the game). I play with my own full ascended set and will not trade it for another corresponding to meta just to fit a role corresponding to a play-style I hate.
GUESS I will stay with several unexplored maps on my world map 6 more years!
Shiny links, take a look!
->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
->Project: ASURAN EXPANSION available on WIKI.
->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
->NEW Asurapedia
Exactly that, would like to enjoy the lore.
Shiny links, take a look!
->Ideas: Housing , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
->Project: ASURAN EXPANSION available on WIKI.
->NEW: Crucible of Eternity path 4: Legacy on WIKI
->NEW Asurapedia
Why not have a look at the lfg and join the ones offering a cleared wing? You'll explore everything (100%!) and additionally you can experience the lore because it's literally laying on the ground in form of notes, books w/e. Bosses and the few cut scenes don't add anything. Most of them can be watched as well in a cleared instance.
Seems like we have a heavy lack of information here.
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