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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@"hugo.4705" said:More Raids like Snowmen's Lair, 6 years I've been playing, and never enjoyed that content due to Elitist and those awful METAS. I don't want to be rejected anymore and having unexplored areas on my world map locked behind that. ME and SEVERAL of my friends want an EASY mode, requiring only 5 PLAYERS where everyone can come with the build they have, like we've done with SECRET LAIR OF THE SNOWMEN. Every patch I see "new raid" I'm crying bcause at the contrary of Fractals, Living story, WvW which are accessible, raids aren't, and I find the idea of locking explorable maps behind raids horrible. (Yeah they are explorable map with a ton of awesome lore, and that's sad I can't experience it 6years after the beginning of the game). I play with my own full ascended set and will not trade it for another corresponding to meta just to fit a role corresponding to a play-style I hate.

GUESS I will stay with several unexplored maps on my world map 6 more years!

Why not have a look at the lfg and join the ones offering a cleared wing? You'll explore everything (100%!) and additionally you can experience the lore because it's literally laying on the ground in form of notes, books w/e. Bosses and the few cut scenes don't add anything. Most of them can be watched as well in a cleared instance.Seems like we have a heavy lack of information here.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"hugo.4705" said:More Raids like Snowmen's Lair, 6 years I've been playing, and never enjoyed that content due to Elitist and those awful METAS. I don't want to be rejected anymore and having unexplored areas on my world map locked behind that. ME and SEVERAL of my friends want an EASY mode, requiring only 5 PLAYERS where everyone can come with the build they have, like we've done with SECRET LAIR OF THE SNOWMEN. Every patch I see "new raid" I'm crying bcause at the contrary of Fractals, Living story, WvW which are accessible, raids aren't, and I find the idea of locking explorable maps behind raids horrible. (Yeah they are explorable map with a ton of awesome lore, and that's sad I can't experience it 6years after the beginning of the game). I play with my own full ascended set and will not trade it for another corresponding to meta just to fit a role corresponding to a play-style I hate.

GUESS I will stay with several unexplored maps on my world map 6 more years!

Why not have a look at the lfg and join the ones offering a cleared wing? You'll explore everything (100%!) and additionally you can experience the lore because it's literally laying on the ground in form of notes, books w/e. Bosses and the few cut scenes don't add anything. Most of them can be watched as well in a cleared instance.Seems like we have a heavy lack of information here.

You're clearly the first one, telling me that about cleared wings. In 6 years I only saw groups with "we need one META chrono" "One meta reaper" "Pls require 1 DPS", "1 healer or support plz" Never saw cleared wing. But thanks, will look forward If i can find that. :/ :)

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@hugo.4705 said:

@hugo.4705 said:More Raids like Snowmen's Lair, 6 years I've been playing, and never enjoyed that content due to Elitist and those awful METAS. I don't want to be rejected anymore and having unexplored areas on my world map locked behind that. ME and SEVERAL of my friends want an EASY mode, requiring only 5 PLAYERS where everyone can come with the build they have, like we've done with SECRET LAIR OF THE SNOWMEN. Every patch I see "new raid" I'm crying bcause at the contrary of Fractals, Living story, WvW which are accessible, raids aren't, and I find the idea of locking explorable maps behind raids horrible. (Yeah they are explorable map with a ton of awesome lore, and that's sad I can't experience it 6years after the beginning of the game). I play with my own full ascended set and will not trade it for another corresponding to meta just to fit a role corresponding to a play-style I hate.

GUESS I will stay with several unexplored maps on my world map 6 more years!

Why not have a look at the lfg and join the ones offering a cleared wing? You'll explore everything (100%!) and additionally you can experience the lore because it's literally laying on the ground in form of notes, books w/e. Bosses and the few cut scenes don't add anything. Most of them can be watched as well in a cleared instance.Seems like we have a heavy lack of information here.

You're clearly the first one, telling me that about cleared wings. In 6 years I only saw groups with "we need one META chrono" "One meta reaper" "Pls require 1 DPS", "1 healer or support plz" Never saw cleared wing. But thanks, will look forward If i can find that. :/ :)

Or you can start your own lfg with msg like Lf cleared wing 1-6 today since its reset tomorrow and someone who cleared it during the week can see it.They then join you and go into each one in order, if not possible you will have to start 6 lfg for each one at a time.Why should people have to put it up if your the one looking for it?EditI mean not like people are mind readers knowing people want to look at cleared instances for lore when they have been out so long already =)

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Can't still figure how it works... :/ once a group finished the raid wing, one stay in for the cleared wing? Yes we have a lack of information. Fractals, you have peoples discussing in map chat, you know how it works/ easy to understand how it works with training T1 + very understandable group description, not the case with raid. Plus you see, I never knew about that cleared wing thing, and never even knew I could advertise in lfg for that. But anyway, the thing I wanted to point out is the fact you have to ASK to explore, sure it will not kill me for asking but once you come in the instance, (can be said with dungeon too), you should have access to mounts/ or at least an option to remove all enemies and let you explore. (Speaking here if you enter the instance alone, and just want to explore) But besides that, about the gameplay himself, will simply return to what have been said before, raids like Hidden lair of the snowmen are fine for me. :)

Got some nice players helping me out, kudos to them. :D I got the maps now.

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@hugo.4705 said:Can't still figure how it works... :/ once a group finished the raid wing, one stay in for the cleared wing? Yes we have a lack of information. Fractals, you have peoples discussing in map chat, you know how it works/ easy to understand how it works with training T1 + very understandable group description, not the case with raid. Plus you see, I never knew about that cleared wing thing, and never even knew I could advertise in lfg for that. But anyway, the thing I wanted to point out is the fact you have to ASK to explore, sure it will not kill me for asking but once you come in the instance, (can be said with dungeon too), you should have access to mounts/ or at least an option to remove all enemies and let you explore. (Speaking here if you enter the instance alone, and just want to explore) But besides that, about the gameplay himself, will simply return to what have been said before, raids like Hidden lair of the snowmen are fine for me. :)

Got some nice players helping me out, kudos to them. :D I got the maps now.

The one who have killed all bosses in said wing enters first when you get the pop up to enter it will be a cleared instance meaning zero mobs.You can only use mounts in the pof raids wing 5 and 6.

EditShould have refreshed before replying congrats on the unlocked maps mate.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

I expect this as well a couple of months before live support & development of the whole game will be shut down. There's so much stuff to do that is more important for the game than easy mode raids. At the moment lots of players are not satisfied with fractals & instabilities but I bet we won't see substantial changes or adjustments within the next 12 months. There are just too few people caring about developing this kind of content.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

Yeah it’s hard to say, there is always the potential that after wing 7, the devs may hang up the gloves on Raids.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

That is assuming that making an easy mode is in the interest of the game or the monetization, which I doubt it is.

Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons). It also removes all players who do spvp and wvw for legendary armor. That would put pressure on the teams creating content for those modes, if there are any, to an extent that the game modes would completely die off.

Here is a more realistic ideal of what is going to happen if raids fall out of favor:

  • the content remains as is
  • people who want the rewards will have to spend more work in organizing groups
  • future power creep might make the content easier (and since then spvp and wvw would basically be dead with more power creep, who cares about them anyway)

I doubt there will ever be a rework for easier raid content, especially if the mode gets less and less attention AND legendary armor works against the itemization system in the game. Just doesn't make any sense. There certainly was no incentive to make dungeons easier to make skins more available from there.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

That is assuming that making an easy mode is in the interest of the game or the monetization, which I doubt it is.At some point (which
isn't
all that off) there will be only two choices - leaving raids practically dead (with all effort put into them wasted), as the original community they were meant for is diminishing faster and faster, or salvage them by opening them to a wider audience.

Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

Here is a more realistic ideal of what is going to happen if raids fall out of favor:
  • the content remains as is
  • people who want the rewards will have to spend more work in organizing groups
  • future power creep might make the content easier (and since then spvp and wvw would basically be dead with more power creep, who cares about them anyway)All that would mean to things - first, all the effort put into raids so far would be wasted. Second, Anet would have to
    admit
    that raids were a wasted effort. And they are one of the game's more advertised contents, something front and center, not something that (like, for example, guild missions) can simply be conveniently forgotten.

I doubt there will ever be a rework for easier raid content, especially if the mode gets less and less attention AND legendary armor works against the itemization system in the game. Just doesn't make any sense. There certainly was no incentive to make dungeons easier to make skins more available from there.Because dungeons were (and still are) easy enough. And they did add dungeon gear to pvp tracks, remember? Besides, Dungeons were treated that way mainly for one reason - because their code was so convoluted that noone wanted to touch them. If not for that, i'm pretty certain Anet would have tried to do something about them as well. In case of raids there's nothing like that, no tons of old bugs that would have to be dealt with - the effort to make them easier (and thus still relevant) would be relatively tiny. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but it is going to happen eventually. And long before the game is put into auto mode.
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The problems I have is -

I can not guarantee to be online for a static group, simple I do have a department to run and responsibilities at my own house.I do have a list of areas that I need to study, my free time is on gaming.... last thing I wanna do is study a raid in GW2 lol.

I've done VG and escort, doesn't seem so hard as people make it out however it was too much effort needed just to get into a group with all the 9999li req.

Keep defending raids, you will continue to see lower number of people up for raids also people lying their way into groups and becomes a dead weight (am not being that person).

I can do high level fractals etc fine. Not that I cant do raids just it is way too much effort needed to get into a group.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

That is assuming that making an easy mode is in the interest of the game or the monetization, which I doubt it is.At some point (which
isn't
all that off) there will be only two choices - leaving raids practically dead (with all effort put into them wasted), as the original community they were meant for is diminishing faster and faster, or salvage them by opening them to a wider audience.

Or, since neither you nor I have any statistics on how much revenue was/is being generated by raids, they just might keep making them for a 5-10% player base with minimal resources.

Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

Full set of legendary armor cost: 1,800 gold.1 set of ascended armor: 300 gold.Cost of ascended to legendary: about 5 times.

1 legendary weapons cost: 1.2-2.5k gold1 ascended weapon cost: 30-50 goldCost of ascended to legendary: about 20-40 times.

That is without getting in the insane benefits of armor versus weapons. 1 set of armor has you set for life, 1 weapon is at best part of some builds.

Where is the incentive to make legendary armor more available without drastically affecting the games economy?

Here is a more realistic ideal of what is going to happen if raids fall out of favor:
  • the content remains as is
  • people who want the rewards will have to spend more work in organizing groups
  • future power creep might make the content easier (and since then spvp and wvw would basically be dead with more power creep, who cares about them anyway)All that would mean to things - first, all the effort put into raids so far would be wasted. Second, Anet would have to
    admit
    that raids were a wasted effort. And they are one of the game's more advertised contents, something front and center, not something that (like, for example, guild missions) can simply be conveniently forgotten.

Who said raids failed? Maybe they are an insenly lucrative return for the amount of work versus reward. Raids might be some of the most lucrative content player wise, or not, none of us would know.

I doubt there will ever be a rework for easier raid content, especially if the mode gets less and less attention AND legendary armor works against the itemization system in the game. Just doesn't make any sense. There certainly was no incentive to make dungeons easier to make skins more available from there.Because dungeons were (and still are) easy enough. And they did add dungeon gear to pvp tracks, remember? Besides, Dungeons were treated that way mainly for one reason - because their code was so convoluted that noone wanted to touch them. If not for that, i'm pretty certain Anet would have tried to do something about them as well. In case of raids there's nothing like that, no tons of old bugs that would have to be dealt with - the effort to make them easier (and thus still relevant) would be relatively tiny. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but it is going to happen eventually. And long before the game is put into auto mode.

The only thing differentiating raids from other content is legendary armor availability and complexity. Who says this content needs to get played by 90% of the player base, even more so if getting this contents rewards might directly adversely affect player retention (see my explanation earlier about legendary armor).

They also added legendary armor to Spvp and WvW tracks. Why would suddenly a raid rework seem more plausible than a dungeon rework?

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

Full set of legendary armor cost: 1,800 gold.1 set of ascended armor: 300 gold.Cost of ascended to legendary: about 5 times.Okay, so it's not 10 times, but more 6-7 times. Going ascended is still cheaper (well, unless maybe if you're chrono). And that's even when forgetting about the ability to swap stats in forge. Yes, legendary armor is still very useful, as a QoL upgrade (not having to change those stats, or carry more than one armor set is quite nice), but it
isn't
the economic option.

That is without getting in the insane benefits of armor versus weapons. 1 set of armor has you set for lifeYes, set for life, for one character. But then on most classes you'd not need more than few ascended armor sets either, and you aren't likely to pay more (or even as much) for gearing as you'd pay for a legendary set.

Where is the incentive to make legendary armor more available without drastically affecting the games economy?

As pointed above, it wouldn't drastically affect the game economy.

Who said raids failed? Maybe they are an insenly lucrative return for the amount of work versus reward. Raids might be some of the most lucrative content player wise, or not, none of us would know.

Suure, raids are doing perfectly fine and the raiding population isn't shrinking to levels where even raiders start complaining about it. You definitely have nothing to worry about, and can safely ignore my posts on that issue.

Why would suddenly a raid rework seem more plausible than a dungeon rework?Because dungeon rework would have required redoing them from scratch (due to the bad way they were originally coded, and the fact the people that knew that code aren't working at Anet anymore). Raids on the other hand would not require so much of a work.

Basically, there's a big difference between fixing a content that is faulty at its core and would require major rewriting and minor tweaks to content that is coded well and does not break in unexpected places at even the slightest touch.

One is indeed a rework, other isn't. The effort is completely different.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

Full set of legendary armor cost: 1,800 gold.1 set of ascended armor: 300 gold.Cost of ascended to legendary: about 5 times.Okay, so it's not 10 times, but more 6-7 times. Going ascended is still cheaper (well, unless maybe if you're chrono). And that's even when forgetting about the ability to swap stats in forge. Yes, legendary armor is still very useful, as a QoL upgrade (not having to change those stats, or carry more than one armor set is quite nice), but it
isn't
the economic option.

That is without getting in the insane benefits of armor versus weapons. 1 set of armor has you set for lifeYes, set for life, for one character. But then on most classes you'd not need more than few ascended armor sets either, and you aren't likely to pay more (or even as much) for gearing as you'd pay for a legendary set.

So you decide to adapt your number, then ommit everything I said. Okay, now who is blind to arguments?

Given how new and all legendary items introduced ever since generation 2 and legendary armor, I ask again:What makes you believe that it is in Arenanets interest to make legendary armor more accessible for pve when all legendary developments have been going in the other direction?

Cost breakdown:Ascended weapons to legendary weapons: very high.

Ascended trinkets to legendary trinkets: insanely high.

Ascended armor to legendary armor:modest at best.

I stick by my assumption on this, from a developer standpoint and keeping players as long engaged as possible, there is no incentive to make access to legendary armor easier, until you expect to shut down the game 6 months later. So it will not happen.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

Easier access to legendary armor via pve undermines a vast majority of other content, most notably ascended armor (which relative to legendary gear is quite expensive, cetainly way more compared to ascended weapons to legendary weapons).As people from the raid scene like to point out, you can craft 10 ascended sets for a cost of a single legendary one, and that alone is enough to not undermine the worth of ascended gear. Same as with weapons.

Full set of legendary armor cost: 1,800 gold.1 set of ascended armor: 300 gold.Cost of ascended to legendary: about 5 times.Okay, so it's not 10 times, but more 6-7 times. Going ascended is still cheaper (well, unless maybe if you're chrono). And that's even when forgetting about the ability to swap stats in forge. Yes, legendary armor is still very useful, as a QoL upgrade (not having to change those stats, or carry more than one armor set is quite nice), but it
isn't
the economic option.

That is without getting in the insane benefits of armor versus weapons. 1 set of armor has you set for lifeYes, set for life, for one character. But then on most classes you'd not need more than few ascended armor sets either, and you aren't likely to pay more (or even as much) for gearing as you'd pay for a legendary set.

So you decide to adapt your number, then ommit everything I said. Okay, now who is blind to arguments?Nah, it's you that didn't see that i
have
addressed your arguments.

Ascended armor to legendary armor:modest at best.Only if you compare crafting. And only because crafting is already very high. There are other, much cheaper sources though.Also, if you look at total cost, legendary armor set price is anything
but
modest. In this, legendary armor is not so different from other legendary gear. All of them are extremely costly.

I stick by my assumption on this, from a developer standpoint and keeping players as long engaged as possible, there is no incentive to make access to legendary armor easier, until you expect to shut down the game 6 months later. So it will not happen.And you base your reasoning on a bad assumption - that it would matter. As i see it, the price tag attached to crafting legendary armor is high enough to keep most players from using it to obsolete ascended. People for whom that price is not a problem to a degree that they can simply decide to replace ascended gear with legendary for all their characters, and without actually having to go through a much, much greater effort? They have legendaries already, either from raids, or from other sources.

Also, you are fixated on price of crafting ascended armor, while forgetting that most players get their sets by other means, which are much cheaper. Almost all of my multiple characters are in full ascended armor (some have more than one set) - and only a few of those were crafted. And i still have spares. In that regard, having legendary armor didn't affect me in the slightest. I'm pretty much sure it wouldn't affect others as well. By the point they'd get their legendary set, they would be swimming in ascended anyway.

As i see it, from a developer standpoint it's better to have a content people will use from content that is dead, unless the effort to move from latter to former is simply too big. In this case, the effort wouldn't be big at all.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Only if you compare crafting. And only because crafting is already very high. There are other, much cheaper sources though.Also, if you look at total cost, legendary armor set price is anything but modest. In this, legendary armor is not so different from other legendary gear. All of them are extremely costly.

Simply untrue, legendary armor is by far the cheapest per stat gear you can get among all legendaries. Cheaper ascended armor might alleviate this problem, but it does not make it go away.

@Astralporing.1957 said:As i see it, from a developer standpoint it's better to have a content people will use from content that is dead, unless the effort to move from latter to former is simply too big. In this case, the effort wouldn't be big at all.

and I see the longevity of the game and motivation first and foremost. Work invested is already done, player retention is an ongoing issue.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Only if you compare crafting. And only because crafting is already very high. There are other, much cheaper sources though.Also, if you look at total cost, legendary armor set price is anything
but
modest. In this, legendary armor is not so different from other legendary gear. All of them are extremely costly.

Simply untrue, legendary armor is by far the cheapest per stat gear you can get among all legendaries.So? It's still prohibitively costly. If you're for cost effectiveness, buying legendary armor simply isn't worth it. People that get it do it for other reasons (skin, and/or QoL of not having to carry several gear sets).

Cheaper ascended armor might alleviate this problem, but it does not make it go away.Sure, because that problem doesn't exist.

@Astralporing.1957 said:As i see it, from a developer standpoint it's better to have a content people will use from content that is dead, unless the effort to move from latter to former is simply too big. In this case, the effort wouldn't be big at all.

and I see the longevity of the game and motivation first and foremost. Work invested is already done, player retention is an ongoing issue.So do i, and what i see is that legendary armor carries with itself
more
grind than it might save players from doing, and that's just when considering only its material components. Not to mention that
players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already
.

Thus, i do not see how making the door more open for the content it is in could have the consequence you have described. If it will have any impact at all, it will be in the opposite direction.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Only if you compare crafting. And only because crafting is already very high. There are other, much cheaper sources though.Also, if you look at total cost, legendary armor set price is anything
but
modest. In this, legendary armor is not so different from other legendary gear. All of them are extremely costly.

Simply untrue, legendary armor is by far the cheapest per stat gear you can get among all legendaries.So? It's still prohibitively costly. If you're for cost effectiveness, buying legendary armor simply isn't worth it. People that get it do it for other reasons (skin, and/or QoL of not having to carry several gear sets).

Cheaper ascended armor might alleviate this problem, but it does not make it go away.Sure, because that problem doesn't exist.

@Astralporing.1957 said:As i see it, from a developer standpoint it's better to have a content people will use from content that is dead, unless the effort to move from latter to former is simply too big. In this case, the effort wouldn't be big at all.

and I see the longevity of the game and motivation first and foremost. Work invested is already done, player retention is an ongoing issue.So do i, and what i see is that legendary armor carries with itself
more
grind than it might save players from doing, and that's just when considering only its material components. Not to mention that
players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already
.

Thus, i do not see how making the door more open for the content it is in could have the consequence you have described. If it will have any impact at all, it will be in the
opposite
direction.

I think we are talking past each other here.

Let me explain: I'm not in favor of restricting things. I am not in favor of keeping things locked behind time gates, farms, tedious tasks, etc.

I do understand though that some of those things are necessary to keep players engaged.

My first ascended armor was more tedious than my first legendary (granted, a full set ascended back then was 700 gold). So no, legendary armor is not a big grind. It's not even twice the grind of the original ascended sets back when they were introduced. At the same time legendary armor is the MOST potent upgrade a player can get from the legendary category on both cost, quality of life and build variety for multiple classes.

As such, I question the value of making this more broadly accessible.

@Astralporing.1957 said:Not to mention that players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already.

Going to address this separately, since here too, you are wrong. Beside the fact that you get 1 full ascended set for free (2 if you count the precursor collection) while doing the achievements for legendary armor. I know of enough new players who can and will raid and are going strait for legendary armor. The ability to do so is there, and it is not that hard to begin with. There is absolutely 0 requirement for ascended gear or armor to get a legendary set in any of the 3 game modes.

Legendary armor is too cheap (compared to other legendaries and the direction those costs have gone). It is intentionally designed this way because it was locked behind raids (and now spvp and wvw to entice people to play that content).

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@Cyninja.2954 said:My first ascended armor was more tedious than my first legendaryMine wasn't. And i've obtained it shortly after it got introduced (took me a bit because i didn't want to skip timegates via TP as some other people did). Still, yes, your first ascended set is going to be the toughest one.

(granted, a full set ascended back then was 700 gold).There wasn't a legendary armor to compare either. Now that we do have legendary armor, we also have much cheaper crafting, and several other sources of ascended gear. If you attempted to get an ascended armor now, it would be much, much easier than then.

So no, legendary armor is not a big grind.Not for you, but only because you have already made that grind. Remember, most veteran raiders started grinding for it a full year before it got released. When it appeared, they had both LI and materials, so of course it didn't seem hard. For someone starting now it won't be the case.

It's not even twice the grind of the original ascended sets back when they were introduced.Better compare it to grind for ascended gear when legendary armor got introduced. Also, i think you don't remember the original grind all that well, because it sure wasn't that bad as you claim. Nor is the legendary grind as easy as you think.

At the same time legendary armor is the MOST potent upgrade a player can get from the legendary category on both cost, quality of life and build variety for multiple classes.True, but with one exception - no legendary offers you an upgrade on cost. For every legendary out there, on cost front it is always a straight loss. And that's where your argument completely breaks down. Also something you don't mention - armor is the least important of gear upgrades. It has nowhere close to the impact weapons (that have direct impact on damage dealt) and trinkets (where most of the stats are) have on your build

As such, I question the value of making this more broadly accessible.See above. You base your doubt on one point that is simply not true.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Not to mention that
players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already
.

Going to address this separately, since here too, you are wrong. Beside the fact that you get 1 full ascended set for free (2 if you count the precursor collection) while doing the achievements for legendary armor. I know of enough new players who can and will raid and are going strait for legendary armor. The ability to do so is there, and it is not that hard to begin with. There is absolutely 0 requirement for ascended gear or armor to get a legendary set in any of the 3 game modes.For highly skilled players, yeah. Players like that however are relatively rare, and are/are going to be raiding anyway (or at least the current difficulty level is not a barrier for them), so their existence doesn't change the equation in the slightest.

Legendary armor is too cheap (compared to other legendaries and the direction those costs have gone). It is intentionally designed this way because it was locked behind raids (and now spvp and wvw to entice people to play that content).No. It is intentionally designed that way because it is locked behind a significant timegate. A legendary weapon you can flat out buy - and that is true not only of gen1 set, but also of gen2.5. An envoy armor however is still going to take you 2 and a half months of raiding (and a month of provisioner tokens, which, by the way, add another ~150 gold to the total price, on top of the ~1900 that efficiency calculator shows) at a minimum for the first set. Probably more, as almost noone starts full-clearing from day one.
That
is why it can afford to be relatively cheaper (notice: "cheaper" still doesn't mean cheap, because it is anything but that).

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:My first ascended armor was more tedious than my first legendaryMine wasn't. And i've obtained it shortly after it got introduced (took me a bit because i didn't want to skip timegates via TP as some other people did). Still, yes, your first ascended set is going to be the toughest one.

Ascended armor was close to 1k gold when it got introduced in the first month, back then 1k gold were a lot more than now. I made my first light ascended armor set after around 30-40 days (for around 700 gold). Not sure how I remember this incorrectly.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:(granted, a full set ascended back then was 700 gold).There wasn't a legendary armor to compare either. Now that we do have legendary armor, we also have much cheaper crafting, and several other sources of ascended gear. If you attempted to get an ascended armor now, it would be much, much easier than then.

I already said that cheaper ascended armor, while reducing the problem, does almost nothing to make it go away. Legendary armor remains the most cost efficient per stat and most useful upgrade. This is even more true with ascended trinkets (where 1 trinket costs 3/4 of an entire legendary armor set) and T2.5 legendary weapons cost way more than an entire set. The tendency for legendary cost has been going up, not down.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:So no, legendary armor is not a big grind.Not for you, but only because
you have already made that grind
. Remember, most veteran raiders started grinding for it a full year before it got released. When it appeared, they had both LI and materials, so of course it didn't seem hard. For someone starting now it won't be the case.

The biggest time gate for legendary armor is LI. The first set of LI can be gained as fast as 10 weeks if one is dedicated enough. The remaining materials are insignificant compared to other legendary items. The pve time gate is vastly lower than the spvp and wvw time gates which are close to 1 year respectively and require people play game modes which are less popular than pve.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's not even twice the grind of the original ascended sets back when they were introduced.Better compare it to grind for ascended gear when
legendary
armor got introduced. Also, i think you don't remember the original grind all that well, because it sure wasn't that bad as you claim. Nor is the legendary grind as easy as you think.

Yes, back when legendary armor was introduced, ascended sets were around 500 gold. Again, how is this relevant when legendary armor is that efficient?

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:At the same time legendary armor is the MOST potent upgrade a player can get from the legendary category on both cost, quality of life and build variety for multiple classes.True, but with one exception -
no
legendary offers you an upgrade on cost. For every legendary out there, on cost front it is always a straight loss. And that's where your argument completely breaks down.

Actually, your argument breaks down. I didn't say legendary was more cost efficient than ascended. I said legendary armor is more cost efficient to ANY other legendary. You have not shown this to be untrue OR given alternatives how these effects might get reduced. Your only counter argument remains: it doesn't matter, which is simply not true at the difference in cost we are looking at.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:As such, I question the value of making this more broadly accessible.See above. You base your doubt on one point that is simply
not true
.

Given how costs for legendaries have continuously increased, my assumption remains more true than your wishful thinking.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Not to mention that
players pursuing it would have their ascended sets already
.

Going to address this separately, since here too, you are wrong. Beside the fact that you get 1 full ascended set for free (2 if you count the precursor collection) while doing the achievements for legendary armor. I know of enough new players who can and will raid and are going strait for legendary armor. The ability to do so is there, and it is not that hard to begin with. There is absolutely 0 requirement for ascended gear or armor to get a legendary set in any of the 3 game modes.For highly skilled players, yeah. Players like that however are relatively rare, and are/are going to be raiding anyway (or at least the current difficulty level is not a barrier for them), so their existence doesn't change the equation in the slightest.

For low skilled players there is pvp and wvw armor which are heavily time gated. Again, how does implementing easy to acquire short term pve legendary help the game? You are actively arguing that players who currently might be locked out of legendary armor will remain more engaged in the game when given access to it.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Legendary armor is too cheap (compared to other legendaries and the direction those costs have gone). It is intentionally designed this way because it was locked behind raids (and now spvp and wvw to entice people to play that content).No. It is intentionally designed that way because it is locked behind a significant timegate.

PvE legendary armor is not a significant time gate. Not compared to any of the other legendary armors, which actually have some what of a time gate.

@Astralporing.1957 said:A legendary weapon you can flat out buy - and that is true not only of gen1 set, but also of gen2.5.

Yes, you can flat out buy gen 1s, and this has already been considered a mistake. Even then, they are extremely more expensive than legendary armor (an entire set mind you).

As to gen 2 and 2.5s : Untrue, please go check on the amount of account bound materials required for gen 2s. The time investment even with ALL the gold materials covered is above 40 hours for each one. Barely more than required for a full set of legendary armor. You are vastly out of touch how long crafting different legendaries takes.

Final point from me on this:I don't have to show that the status quo needs changing. You need to show that there is a significant benefit to both the game and the developer from making legendary armor more accessible. The only benefit here is easier access for a majority of the player base (which is a valid argument). The downside is potential loss in long term goals and player retention. You apply wishful thinking, while I am looking at how legenary gear since the armor implementation was introduced. That's the different approach I see here.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:My first ascended armor was more tedious than my first legendaryMine wasn't. And i've obtained it shortly after it got introduced (took me a bit because i didn't want to skip timegates via TP as some other people did). Still, yes, your first ascended set is going to be the toughest one.

Ascended armor was close to 1k gold when it got introduced in the first month, back then 1k gold were a lot more than now. I made my first light ascended armor set after around 30-40 days (for around 700 gold). Not sure how I remember this incorrectly.yet you do remember it incorrectly.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2clkqc/total_mat_cost_for_ascended_set/That includes the costs of getting your relevant crafting profession from 400 to 500. Those prices are from mid 2014, but they aren't much different from what i remember from the beginning of the year (they're probably somewhat cheaper than initially, but that's all).

Edit: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1459010-Ascended-Armor-Does-it-worth-it?p=25394647&viewfull=1#post25394647 <- was partially right. Forgot about the light armor vs other weight sets price disparity. I farmed all the silk myself (which as i remember wasn't really hard, i could easily get enough silk per day to match the daily crafting gates - and i wasn't really even trying, no dedicated farming, just playing a lot), so wasn't affected by the initial lack of it on TP (and thus the price spike).

Hint: yes, the cost of ascended armor might have been close to 800g shortly after it got introduced, but only in one situation: if you decided to bypass the daily crafting gate. In the first month the price of damask on TP was astronomical, but that wasn't due to the worth of materials themselves, but merely a result of people rushing (or not having lev 500 crafts yet), and the short-term silk price spike. Investing in craft and doing the stuff yourself allowed you to ignore that problem completely and practically halved the price of the whole set. So i guess you've been rushing.

@Cyninja.2954 said:(granted, a full set ascended back then was 700 gold).There wasn't a legendary armor to compare either. Now that we do have legendary armor, we also have much cheaper crafting, and several other sources of ascended gear. If you attempted to get an ascended armor now, it would be much, much easier than then.

I already said that cheaper ascended armor, while reducing the problem, does almost nothing to make it go away. Legendary armor remains the most cost efficient per stat and most useful upgrade. This is even more true with ascended trinkets (where 1 trinket costs 3/4 of an entire legendary armor set) and T2.5 legendary weapons cost way more than an entire set. The tendency for legendary cost has been going up, not down.

@Cyninja.2954 said:So no, legendary armor is not a big grind.Not for you, but only because
you have already made that grind
. Remember, most veteran raiders started grinding for it a full year before it got released. When it appeared, they had both LI and materials, so of course it didn't seem hard. For someone starting now it won't be the case.

The biggest time gate for legendary armor is LI. The first set of LI can be gained as fast as 10 weeks if one is dedicated enough. The remaining materials are insignificant compared to other legendary items. The pve time gate is vastly lower than the spvp and wvw time gates which are close to 1 year respectively and require people play game modes which are less popular than pve.WvW one can be obtained in 21 weeks. PvP indeed is longer, as it requires 3 PvP seasons (still not a year, though). Basically, WvW timegate is double the raid one, while pvp is triple.

@Cyninja.2954 said:It's not even twice the grind of the original ascended sets back when they were introduced.Better compare it to grind for ascended gear when
legendary
armor got introduced. Also, i think you don't remember the original grind all that well, because it sure wasn't that bad as you claim. Nor is the legendary grind as easy as you think.

Yes, back when legendary armor was introduced, ascended sets were around 500 gold. Again, how is this relevant when legendary armor is that efficient?Because it
isn't
efficient at all. You still lose gold by going after it over ascended gear.

@Cyninja.2954 said:At the same time legendary armor is the MOST potent upgrade a player can get from the legendary category on both cost, quality of life and build variety for multiple classes.True, but with one exception -
no
legendary offers you an upgrade on cost. For every legendary out there, on cost front it is always a straight loss. And that's where your argument completely breaks down.

Actually, your argument breaks down. I didn't say legendary was more cost efficient than ascended. I said legendary armor is more cost efficient to ANY other legendary.No, actually you claimed that legendary armor will make people stop pursuing ascended gear. Which is only true if it would be more efficient than said ascended gear. It isn't, so your argument breaks down completely.

You have not shown this to be untrue OR given alternatives how these effects might get reduced.Because that was irrelevant to the discussion. Relative efficiency of different legendary types to each other have absolutely no impact on making their corresponding ascended gear irrelevant. While pursuing legendary armor over ascended you may lose less than in case of weapons, but the truth is, you still
lose
. As long as that part remains, what you're afraid of won't happen.

For low skilled players there is pvp and wvw armor which are heavily time gated. Again, how does implementing easy to acquire short term pve legendary help the game? You are actively arguing that players who currently might be locked out of legendary armor will remain more engaged in the game when given access to it.

Well, giving them one more thing to pursue can hardly make them
less
engaged.

@Astralporing.1957 said:A legendary weapon you can flat out buy - and that is true not only of gen1 set, but also of gen2.5.

Yes, you can flat out buy gen 1s, and this has already been considered a mistake. Even then, they are extremely more expensive than legendary armor (an entire set mind you).

As to gen 2 and 2.5s : Untrue, please go check on the amount of account bound materials required for gen 2s. The time investment even with ALL the gold materials covered is above 40 hours for each one. Barely more than required for a full set of legendary armor. You are vastly out of touch how long crafting different legendaries takes.No, you are. People are crafting new 2.5 legendaries less than an hour after new LS patch that intoduced them. Some do it within
minutes
. Because 2.5 contains no time gates that cannot be easily bypassed with more gold. It's a straight mat sink, nothing more.Where did you get those 40 hours, by the way? I'm really curious.

Final point from me on this:
I don't have to show that the status quo needs changing. You need to show that there is a significant benefit to both the game and the developer from making legendary armor more accessible.Nah, i'm simply predicting. You just don't like what i am predicting. I really don't care if the devs will follow that path (that seems quite obvious for me) or if they let raids crash and burn, wasting all their prior effort.

The only benefit here is easier access for a majority of the player base (which is a valid argument).Exactly. And it's the one that counts.

The downside is potential loss in long term goals and player retention.And i point to you there is no loss. Legendary armor (no matter which one) for almost anyone is still a much longer goal than even several sets of ascended armor.

You apply wishful thinking, while I am looking at how legenary gear since the armor implementation was introduced. That's the different approach I see here.No. You concentrate on comparing prices of different legendaries with each other which happens to be of no relevance to the topic we're discussing. For the reasons i outlined above.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:Well, giving them one more thing to pursue can hardly make them less engaged.

You are not comparing short term versus long term engagement. But then again we are both disagreeing on what short and long tem goals could be it seems.

@Astralporing.1957 said:WvW one can be obtained in 21 weeks. PvP indeed is longer, as it requires 3 PvP seasons (still not a year, though). Basically, WvW timegate is double the raid one, while pvp is triple.

Spvp is time gated since seasons are not always up, so you have to commit quite some time in those time frames. WvW takes a significant amount of game play time over both spvp and pve (we are talking 2-4 hours per day for those 21 weeks). Neither of both come close to the pve one in time commitment. So both comparative armors have heavy draw backs versus the pve one.

@Astralporing.1957 said:Where did you get those 40 hours, by the way? I'm really curious.

Since you are not checking gw2eff I shall quote myself from this thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/65805/how-best-to-approach-the-more-tedious-parts-of-my-first-legendary-weapon-pharus#latest) dealing exactly with this question:

Account bound materials required:

  • Gift of Battle (around 6-8 hours of WvW)
  • 514 Obsidian Shards (1,079,400 Karma, unless you use other methods to acquire Mystic Clovers which too require more time)
  • 1,404 Philosopher's Stone (meaning it's 1,404 Spirit Shards)
  • Bloodstone Shard (another 200 Spirit Shards)
  • 250 Crystalline Ore (at around 40-50 per Dragon Stand meta, that's around 5 full Dragon Stand metas. Another 6-7 hours)
  • 250 Ley Line Spark
  • 250 Pile of Auric Dust
  • 250 Bottle of Airship Oil
  • Gift of the Jungle (Map complete Dragon Stand, easily done while farming Crystaline Ore)
  • Gift of the Fleet (Map complete Verdant Brink)
  • Gift of Tarir (Map compete Auric Basin)
  • 290 Tribute to Spero (1 costs 20 unbound magic, volatile magic or other resource. Given that Unbounb Magic is probably easiest to farm, 5800 Unbound Magic is 3-4 trips through the Winterberry Forest)
  • multiple other lesser account bound materials not worth mentioning

Even if the gold required is probably the by far biggest time sink, I'd estimate the other materials at around 20-30 hours of farming. That is if you know where and how to get these materials efficiently. Can't really make an estimate for Karma and Spirit Shards since I haven't farmed those in ages.

That is pretty much the entire materials required when making just about any 2.5 legendary which are account bound (the question asked was specifically how long it would take IF one had all the gold required). Please notice that some of the materials required are not valued time wise in this calculation, like the over 1 million karma or the 1.4k Spirit Shards. I made a very generous estimate on how long things might take. In reality is is a lot more likely that the time for account bound materials is closer to 50-100 hours of farming. This does not include ANY time for the collections of the v2 legendaries.

@Astralporing.1957 said:No. You concentrate on comparing prices of different legendaries with each other which happens to be of no relevance to the topic we're discussing. For the reasons i outlined above.

I compare effort and effect of different legendarys in the game right now. I look at how legendarys since armor have been introduced into the game (and the associated cost).

You simply decide to ignore these actual facts (and the only data we could draw upon) replacing them with assumptions which are un-grounded.

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You still haven't addressed the main point i made about how your argument is flawed at its core. You know, the one where all your reasoning hinges on legendary armor making ascended gear obsolete. Which can only be true if getting legendary armor would be more efficient and less grindy than the ascended option.

Which, so it happens, it isn't.

And if that point isn't true, then all opening legendary armor for more users can do is give them more grind options and goals than they already had.

You bring up a lot of examples, make a lot of comparisons of many things, but it hadn't escaped my attention that you haven't actually contended my point even once. All you do is to try to misdirect the discussion.

Yes, legendary weapons and trinkets are more pricey than their ascended counterparts than it is the case of armor. Yes, Anet apparently doesn't have uniform policy about legendary gear prices. So? How exactly that has anything to do with your main premise?

Answer me this: How allowing people that weren't able to do that before to pursue legendary armor from raids remove longterm goals from them, if pursuing said armor is still a more longterm (and more costly) goal than gearing up in ascended?

You are trying to persuade us that this is somehow true, against all logic, but you cannot acually explain why, can you.

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