Countless PVP Mesmer Suggestions — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Countless PVP Mesmer Suggestions

Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭
edited February 2, 2019 in PVP

Timestamps for the changes I discussed are in the videos description. Enjoy

Comments

  • K THEN.5162K THEN.5162 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    You have some great suggestions! Do you have any changes in mind for the interaction the Master of Manipulation trait has with Mass Invisibility? Since in its current state (since release) the trait clashes with the skill and constantly causes reveal when a projectile is reflected

    WHAT?!? Did you expect something special would be written here

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    @K THEN.5162 said:
    You have some great suggestions! Do you have any changes in mind for the interaction the Master of Manipulation trait has with Mass Invisibility? Since in it's current state (since release) the trait clashes with the skill and constantly causes reveal when a projectile is reflected

    You're right I completely forgot about Mass Invis. Also note with my suggested change I got rid of the mirror on manipulation skills entirely so reflecting yourself out of stealth wont be a problem. But if I had to make a change to Mass invis, I'd do the following. I'll update this in the videos description. Thank you for reminding me.

    Mass Invis : Activation time is now 1 second.

  • MrFoooster.8192MrFoooster.8192 Member ✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    rework mesmers non existent boonshare please...( make boon giver traits(bountiful, seize the moment, flow of time etc ) aoe share !)

    Nerf is over the hill !

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    Some great suggestions.

    I'll only comment on a few.

    Axe 3 - I strongly believe the cooldown should not be increased. I like the OP's confusion stack changes, makes sense. The damage aspect and 0.75s evade is perfectly fine with 10s base cooldown - ok maybe 12s base at a stretch but no more - it wouldn't remedy complaints about detargeting but cause axe to be unable to burst often enough to be relevant (compared to say GS2/F1). The other axe skills are meh in terms of damage application - the whole axe play is building to a synchronised burst with 3 otherwise it's even more meh than sitting spamming staff 1/ambush, so IF the detarget is an issue I'd sooner remove the detarget entirely from axe 3 - and maybe give Jaunt detarget instead (assuming they leave Jaunt at 30s per charge with 2 charges). Jaunt is the only other skill that makes sense to add detarget given it's a instant position change.

    Evasive Mirror - I think they could simply reduce the duration of reflect from 2s down to 1s giving (but leave the icd at 1.5s). At half the duration I think there would be plenty of downtime. But either way not to fussed what they do here - would be good with OP's suggestion.

    Desperate Decoy - hell yeah, I like the change to trigger off F4 instead of passive auto proc.

    Illusionary Ambush - likewise in terms of cooldown I think it shouldn't be increased much if at all unless for example it guaranteed 1 clone spawn on cast - because with zero clones it's kind of useless as a detarget (the pseudo-dodge and rng teleport does not provide much on its own without max clones out). It only gains true value with 3 clones out, and even then rng bad luck can cause it to kitten up occasionally. If Axe 3 had the detarget removed (being on Jaunt instead) I think IA would be ok as it is - maybe bump it up to 25s but absolutely no higher than 30s (anywhere in that ballpark of things like blink, signet of midnight, sand through glass, etc). I'm in the camp that prefers to incentivise detarget skills over stealth skills - where the counterplay of killing clones is already there.

    IH - solid suggestion in the OP, makes sense for active play with counter play.

    Null Field - nice change, and on that note also the new glamour trait.

    Other things I think should be nerfed that weren't covered:

    Ineptitude - change to "Interrupt inflicts blind AND confusion". So Blind no longer inflicts confusion by itself => no more spam synergy with Blinding Dissipation but requires active interrupt to confuse.

    Axe ambush - reduce torment duration back to 3s (they buffed this to 4s sometime last year).

    Of course a load more things to talk about but cba to type a lot at the moment.

    Overall nice to have a proper discussion rather than the usual ranting.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MrFoooster.8192 said:
    rework mesmers non existent boonshare please...( make boon giver traits(bountiful, seize the moment, flow of time etc ) aoe share !)

    But they just nerfed bountiful delusionment... I don't think they going back on this one.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
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  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Ineptitude - change to "Interrupt inflicts blind AND confusion". So Blind no longer inflicts confusion by itself => no more spam synergy with Blinding Dissipation but requires active interrupt to confuse.

    Ineptitude is fine. It's supposed to be able to synergize with things.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    ATTENTION EVERYONE - Please listen to the video carefully before clicking that thumbs up!

    Don't be fooled by the calm words of the streamer in this video. The suggestions in this video are not the rework that Mesmer/Mirage needs, and they certainly don't tip towards nerfs at all. He is suggesting all of these alterations that grant Mesmer/Mirage even more versatility than it has now, with a bit of power creep mixed in. A few of the stronger reactions I had before turning the video off:

    • When he first mentioned his change to Desperate Decoy so that it could be force triggered, I thought to myself "Ha, nice way to sneak a buff in."
    • Then he talks about Master Of Manipulation and suggests gaining Super Speed after using Blink, I thought "Yeeeah, how about no to that extra disengage buff that Mirage does not need at all in any way."
    • Then the guy starts talking about Blurred Inscriptions, and mentions how he think that the 10% vuln that normally comes with Signet Of Humility should be changed to an immobilization. This is the point in which I turned the video off and thought to myself: "So.. does this guy and Jawgeous have some kind of under the table hand shake going on? Are they benefitting views by having Jawgeous toss the Mirage hate, while this guy tosses the Mirage love? They're just being loudly spoken sources of debacle, concerning the largest controversy plaguing spvp, for people to pay attention to? I mean, Mirage nerf threads always get the greatest amount of hits out of any other thread after all. And under what premise or motivation would someone actually suggest that when you get Moa'd, you should also get immobed simultaneously while being in a form that cannot use condi cleanse. What kind of motivation drives a suggestion like that other than to fire people up and get others to pay attention to you. Whether they're angry or they support the ridiculous notion, people will repost it in various places. Great idea though if they are doing that. 100% understand.

    But enough of these fancy schmancy Mirage main "rework discussions." Reallocating and pushing around trait-lines, and pushing around and changing where damage comes from but not actually eliminating any of it, or pushing around and changing where its sources of mario starish saiyan like invulnerability comes from but not actually removing any of it, ISN'T GOING TO FIX ANYTHING. So enough of this weird Mirage community effort to intelligently, calmly and properly, suggest pushing around abilities but not actually changing any of the output measures. What Mirage needs is hard nerfing, right along with Boonbeasts and Holosmiths.

    That's it, that's everything, and it's true. At the end of the day that's what 95% of the community wants to see, and that's what the game needs.

    I mean yeah the video looks at some of things not being run and suggests buffs to them but like

    Changing Deceptive Decoy to be something you have to actively used instead of just something that happens at a health threshold is a good change. Like when people were discussing what to do with Defy Pain and I liked the proposed suggestion that the trait makes Endure Pain ammo skill. Would that have been a "stealth buff" to warriors back when Defense Tree was all the rage? I mean sure? But it would promote more skillful gameplay and is overall healthier. Like what do you just want the trait slot empty? Sheesh. Is Distortion the best place to put something like this? Maybe not. But Stealth and Clone on Health Threshold is literally the worst place to have it. Frankly I would like to see the trait be changed to something useful if you play condition without pistol and doesn't interrupt your stomps.

    "Imaginary Axes - You must now be facing your target when you cast the ambush in order for the axes to seek the target." Solid nerf that makes it at least a little less effortlessly spammable than it is now.

    "Evasive Mirror: After a successful heal, gain mirror for 3 seconds. Cooldown 15 seconds." Very serious nerf to Chaos Mirage's reflect up time which right now is insane.

    "Infinite Horizon – When YOU use an Ambush skill, your illusions also gain it. Mirage cloak has been removed from this skill." Very serious nerfs that makes clones much easier to deal with so you can more easily eliminate shatter and ambush fuel, and makes ambush abilities much easier to avoid to boot.

    "illusionary Ambush – Cooldown Increased to 35 seconds." That's like a 75% increase on it's cooldown. And Illusionary Ambush deserves it.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    this wouldn't change a thing to the problems mirage has (or what complain are mostly about)

    your suggestions will also both buff the illusions and chaos build:

    • dune cloak +blinding dissipation now allows illusion builds to put 5 condis with just the cry shatter, something people have been complaining about - this endless condi spam (3 for chaos builds btw which is also huge)
    • chaos traitline now a bit more flexible (nobody will take master of manipulation btw), chaos is taken because of boons mainly perm protection and vigor. Either double chaos storm or your new PU will put more boon the mesmer so this wouldnt change anything

    what you'll keep is the extreme visual clutter (clone spam) and faceroll damage migration (cloaks, stealth, ports - all work even when "caught")

    in addition, mesmer is not worthy of such heavy rework (for anet standards) and pvp would most certainly not benevit from it in my opinion

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Koen.1327 said:
    this wouldn't change a thing to the problems mirage has (or what complain are mostly about)

    your suggestions will also both buff the illusions and chaos build:

    • dune cloak +blinding dissipation now allows illusion builds to put 5 condis with just the cry shatter, something people have been complaining about - this endless condi spam (3 for chaos builds btw which is also huge)

    Show me a condition damage build that does conditions primarily through stacking 1 or 2 types of damaging condition that's even remotely top 250 viable.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Koen.1327 said:
    this wouldn't change a thing to the problems mirage has (or what complain are mostly about)

    your suggestions will also both buff the illusions and chaos build:

    • dune cloak +blinding dissipation now allows illusion builds to put 5 condis with just the cry shatter, something people have been complaining about - this endless condi spam (3 for chaos builds btw which is also huge)

    Show me a condition damage build that does conditions primarily through stacking 1 or 2 types of damaging condition that's even remotely top 250 viable.

    how is this even relevant to what i said, did you even quote the right person?
    1 extra cover condi is a buff, period

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    Liked some of the stuff, some - not that much.
    Mantra of distration change would defeat its purpose, it was made to synergize with a bunch of interrupt traits.
    IH change would be a harder nerf to power mesmer, yet again, no more clone sw ambush to burst.

    The degenerate

  • SPESHAL.9106SPESHAL.9106 Member ✭✭✭

    What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

    Not only did Mesmers pass internal testing after their "rework"...they also got kid glove treatment on nerfs for a full year, and they STILL are a problem. Honest mesmers will admit it, but for some reason Anet doesn't.

    If you poll new players who quit and find out what in PvP made them quit, you will find that Mesmers are by far the biggest culprit for running off people from the game.

    You can individually tweak abilities here and there to bandaid the situation like these type videos suggest, but it's really a macro problem with mesmers.

    You can't have a profession that allows you to spec for almost anything with minimal tradeoffs. They created a profession with the most potential for AI, scaling defenses/immunities, mobility, highest burst (condi or power), lowest cast times, lowest cooldowns, most abilities, most bloat on top of the most abilities, most evades, best dodge, AOE potential, boon spam, boon rip, highest cc/interupts/dazes, etc. For a whole season, they also were the best tanks in the game.

    If that wasn't enough...they get tons of invisibility and single the longest lasting CC in the history of MMOs with no way to break out. No other profession comes close to doing as much damage without risk.

    Ironically, but telling is the fact that they are so OP with defenses, that most mesmers don't even need to use the most powerful CC in the history of MMOs.

    On top of all these things they gave Mesmers, they also gave them the most powerful group utility - portal - that they gave nobody else and didn't nerf for years until just recently. It's crazy at this point in the history of the game that they haven't realized the macro problems they created and still keep trying to kid glove fix things with individual ability tweaks.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am not a Mesmer player so I don't really want to comment on too many of your suggestions. However, there were a couple that I really liked: Deceptive Decoy and Infinite Horizon.

    I do disagree with your proposed change to traited Signet of Humility, however. Although the skill doesn't see much use anymore, Moa is still a strong effect, and attaching an immob to it is extremely punishing. Sure, you could still use Moa 5 to evade for part of it, but you are still locked out of your skills. It gets even more punishing when using a build with expertise. I agree that 10x Vulnerability is just bad, but I'd rather it have a different effect. No suggestions, I just don't think immob is a healthy idea.

    Healing orbs are a mistake. Please delete them ANet.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Ineptitude - change to "Interrupt inflicts blind AND confusion". So Blind no longer inflicts confusion by itself => no more spam synergy with Blinding Dissipation but requires active interrupt to confuse.

    Ineptitude is fine. It's supposed to be able to synergize with things.

    Same could be said of DE and IH synergy. ;)

    Reasoning is they have been pushing confusion towards burst, short duration high stacks for some time, and this is kind of the remaining outlier - because of being able to spread apply confusion from any source of blind. Unless they change Blinding Dissipation in some way (though I think this is ok on its own right now). Anyway for the record I'm not personally invested in this change.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Regarding detarget in general, given it is basically stealth with zero duration, I recall a suggestion somewhere on here some time ago to make Reveal prevent detarget?

    Would be an interesting change - so if being affected by Reveal then detarget fails to function.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Chuck.2864Chuck.2864 Member ✭✭✭

    Detarget simply shouldn't exist as a mechanic outside of stealth. Horrible, horrible design - basically giving Mirage the ability to make the enemy fight the UI as much as the Mirage itself. Making people fight the UI as part of actual combat is just insane. It needs to be deleted from the game entirely.

  • Power lock a chill? /stopped watching there

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Chuck.2864 said:
    Detarget simply shouldn't exist as a mechanic outside of stealth. Horrible, horrible design - basically giving Mirage the ability to make the enemy fight the UI as much as the Mirage itself. Making people fight the UI as part of actual combat is just insane. It needs to be deleted from the game entirely.

    Detarget is essentially stealth with zero duration.

    The only reason it works on two skills is because of the teleport repositioning - and even then one of those skills is guaranteed blink in melee range which makes retargeting easier (or at least the ability to dodge and cleave as a follow up). Granted I don't really care for the detarget on axe 3 and would be fine with Anet removing it entirely if they follow the opinion of it being too annoying - I care more about the damage and burst setup on that skill.

    The third skill they put it on (Mirror Images - core skill) is laughably useless given it doesn't have that repositioning element. They just made it into a worse version of Decoy.

    Personally I'd say stealth on mesmer is more annoying because there is prevention from targeting anything for a duration.

    For the record I do understand the non-fun aspect of gw2's UI and targeting system - it's not smooth. Honestly I believe there could be improvements in the case of things like clones or minions when it comes to next/previous etc, to be more consistent. For example if vs a mesmer, next/previous target had guaranteed 50% chance of targeting the player or clone (but skips all phantasms), on average that would be two keypresses to get back to the player, rather than having to cycle through everything - so clones would simply add a 50% random roll to the next/previous target selection rather than existing in the target cycle, regardless if there was 1 clone out or 3 clones out.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    ATTENTION EVERYONE - Please listen to the video carefully before clicking that thumbs up!

    Don't be fooled by the calm words of the streamer in this video. The suggestions in this video are not the rework that Mesmer/Mirage needs, and they certainly don't tip towards nerfs at all. He is suggesting all of these alterations that grant Mesmer/Mirage even more versatility than it has now, with a bit of power creep mixed in. A few of the stronger reactions I had before turning the video off:

    • When he first mentioned his change to Desperate Decoy so that it could be force triggered, I thought to myself "Ha, nice way to sneak a buff in."
    • Then he talks about Master Of Manipulation and suggests gaining Super Speed after using Blink, I thought "Yeeeah, how about no to that extra disengage buff that Mirage does not need at all in any way."
    • Then the guy starts talking about Blurred Inscriptions, and mentions how he think that the 10% vuln that normally comes with Signet Of Humility should be changed to an immobilization. This is the point in which I turned the video off and thought to myself: "So.. does this guy and Jawgeous have some kind of under the table hand shake going on? Are they benefitting views by having Jawgeous toss the Mirage hate, while this guy tosses the Mirage love? They're just being loudly spoken sources of debacle, concerning the largest controversy plaguing spvp, for people to pay attention to? I mean, Mirage nerf threads always get the greatest amount of hits out of any other thread after all. And under what premise or motivation would someone actually suggest that when you get Moa'd, you should also get immobed simultaneously while being in a form that cannot use condi cleanse. What kind of motivation drives a suggestion like that other than to fire people up and get others to pay attention to you. Whether they're angry or they support the ridiculous notion, people will repost it in various places. Great idea though if they are doing that. 100% understand.

    But enough of these fancy schmancy Mirage main "rework discussions." Reallocating and pushing around trait-lines, and pushing around and changing where damage comes from but not actually eliminating any of it, or pushing around and changing where its sources of mario starish saiyan like invulnerability comes from but not actually removing any of it, ISN'T GOING TO FIX ANYTHING. So enough of this weird Mirage community effort to intelligently, calmly and properly, suggest pushing around abilities but not actually changing any of the output measures. What Mirage needs is hard nerfing, right along with Boonbeasts and Holosmiths.

    That's it, that's everything, and it's true. At the end of the day that's what 95% of the community wants to see, and that's what the game needs.

    I mean yeah the video looks at some of things not being run and suggests buffs to them but like

    Changing Deceptive Decoy to be something you have to actively used instead of just something that happens at a health threshold is a good change. Like when people were discussing what to do with Defy Pain and I liked the proposed suggestion that the trait makes Endure Pain ammo skill. Would that have been a "stealth buff" to warriors back when Defense Tree was all the rage? I mean sure? But it would promote more skillful gameplay and is overall healthier. Like what do you just want the trait slot empty? Sheesh. Is Distortion the best place to put something like this? Maybe not. But Stealth and Clone on Health Threshold is literally the worst place to have it. Frankly I would like to see the trait be changed to something useful if you play condition without pistol and doesn't interrupt your stomps.

    "Imaginary Axes - You must now be facing your target when you cast the ambush in order for the axes to seek the target." Solid nerf that makes it at least a little less effortlessly spammable than it is now.

    "Evasive Mirror: After a successful heal, gain mirror for 3 seconds. Cooldown 15 seconds." Very serious nerf to Chaos Mirage's reflect up time which right now is insane.

    "Infinite Horizon – When YOU use an Ambush skill, your illusions also gain it. Mirage cloak has been removed from this skill." Very serious nerfs that makes clones much easier to deal with so you can more easily eliminate shatter and ambush fuel, and makes ambush abilities much easier to avoid to boot.

    "illusionary Ambush – Cooldown Increased to 35 seconds." That's like a 75% increase on it's cooldown. And Illusionary Ambush deserves it.

    I find it funny that Mor had a chance to quote you before you had a chance to edit it. Don't tip towards nerfs at all? My proposed changes suggest nerfs to imaginary axes, axes of symmetry, Infinite horizon, and mirror, which would be a big dps loss if those changes saw the light of day. Sneak a buff in? I timestamped everything in the video, if I wanted to sneak something in, I wouldn't have included it with timestamps, hoping someone would gloss over it, or better yet not have made the video at all, and just suggested my ideas straight to the devs without any nerfs to the four I mentioned above. But luckily for you I actually care about balance, and variety as well, for all classes. I can't say the same for you, you have this vendetta of wanting to see mesmer nerfed into the dirt, which is your opinion sure, but it's not helping anyone, even if you think it is. It's a shame to see that you still don't understand the difference between balancing a skill to ensure it's still viable, and nerfing it into obscurity. Because if you did, you would give suggestions on how to do so, instead of making a blanket statement of saying it needs "hard nerfs", that's some great insight you got there. If only the devs have thought of that sooner.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    I loled at changes OP suggest...
    AoS does no damage now ,nor power nor condi .
    PU first choice.
    Master of manipulation get useless upgrades and for some reason becomes grandmaster...
    MoD 1s chill . Lol ? I have to add necro have 35s cd pull,1200 range 5 targets and ~80 LF and chill for 4s? 1s chill compared to that is bs
    Dune cloak would be even worse than its now or rather an addition to ineptitude shatter spam
    Scepter is not mentioned.
    Rest of them make not much no sense as well (only IA cd could be 30s since its not a stunbreak ,just rng teleport and perma reflect removal was ok)
    To be a first april fools its too early,isnt it ?

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

    It's what happens when the Devs listen to forum QQ instead of feedback from mesmer mains.
    Mirage could have been fixed 5 months after PoF if they had listened to people that actually played the class.

    But since the mesmer has perma evade ( it doesnt) infinite dodges ( also a lie) saiyan defense (lol wat) and perma vigor ( also a no) Perma stealth ( when?)
    it obviously needed pointless random nerfs
    Thanks Anet. Glad the forum QQ helped so much.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

    It's what happens when the Devs listen to forum QQ instead of feedback from mesmer mains.
    Mirage could have been fixed 5 months after PoF if they had listened to people that actually played the class.

    But since the mesmer has perma evade ( it doesnt) infinite dodges ( also a lie) saiyan defense (lol wat) and perma vigor ( also a no) Perma stealth ( when?)
    it obviously needed pointless random nerfs
    Thanks Anet. Glad the forum QQ helped so much.

    Anet listen to crybabies only because this hush them ,its their priority ,so they bark off . They dont have priority to balance/make things better or whatnot.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    I find it funny that Mor had a chance to quote you before you had a chance to edit it. Don't tip towards nerfs at all? My proposed changes suggest nerfs to imaginary axes, axes of symmetry, Infinite horizon, and mirror, which would be a big dps loss if those changes saw the light of day. Sneak a buff in? I timestamped everything in the video, if I wanted to sneak something in, I wouldn't have included it with timestamps, hoping someone would gloss over it, or better yet not have made the video at all, and just suggested my ideas straight to the devs without any nerfs to the four I mentioned above. But luckily for you I actually care about balance, and variety as well, for all classes. I can't say the same for you, you have this vendetta of wanting to see mesmer nerfed into the dirt, which is your opinion sure, but it's not helping anyone, even if you think it is. It's a shame to see that you still don't understand the difference between balancing a skill to ensure it's still viable, and nerfing it into obscurity. Because if you did, you would give suggestions on how to do so, instead of making a blanket statement of saying it needs "hard nerfs", that's some great insight you got there. If only the devs have thought of that sooner.

    Unlike the above response ^ I am going to take the time to well explain myself rather than spit insults all over the place.

    1. Yes, I do have a vendetta towards seeing Mirage nerfed because it should receive the same exact treatment that other specializations are given when they are clearly over performing, which is getting nerfed. I am sick & tired of seeing Mirage allowed so many get out of jail free cards in-game and even when it comes to game design. Every other class gets nerfed, they don't get fancy schmancy reworks that push around & reallocate the sources of their strengths without actually dumbing it down. Why should Mirage be treated differently? Example: A class/build is able to perpetually proc 10 stacks of stability that lasts 10 seconds with a single skill that only has a 10 second cool-down. The player community has widely identified that this single skill is the source of what is making it broken and too powerful. When the players call for a nerf, what they are wanting to see is something like, a 10 stack of stability for 10 seconds single skill with a 10 second cool-down, turn into a 5 stack of stability for 5 seconds on that single skill with a 15 second cool-down. What players do not want to see, is a cop-out "redesign" labeled as "some kind of fix" that divides the 10 stacks of stability for 10 seconds off a single skill, between ten different skills that now all do 1 stack of stability for 10 seconds, all on a 10 second cool-down. Players could argue that this "rework" makes it harder to play or that it was a quality of life change, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP class/build in question, is still benefitting 10 stacks of stability for 10 seconds every 10s. Here are some sobering truths to review for this discussion: "When Spellbreaker was OP, FC cool-down was greatly increased and much of its damage as taken away" "Firebrand received greatly increased cool-downs on its tomes" "Passive Elixir S was removed from Holo" "DE Deaths' Judgement is no longer unblockable" "Druid CA cool-down was greatly increased and 33% of the healing on every CA skill was nerfed" "Scourge had HALF of its boon conversions straight removed from the game" So... why should Mirage be treated differently? Look man, I agree with you, Mirage as the specialization needs a rework. But I also feel that Condi Mirage as the build, needs nerfing. And I'm talking numeric statistical attribute tied chopping. Although this is just my opinion, it is also the opinion of 90% or greater of this community, in-forum and in-game. Many of that 90% is including players who have been here since year 1 or maybe even beta, who have 10,000 or maybe 15,000 games played or more in Guild Wars 2 Conquest Spvp. To suggest that these kind of players have no concept of game balance, is a self centered and ridiculous notion. To anyone who actually believes or suggests this, I'd tell them that they need to come out from under the rock of the main class they play, and try to view the intra-class dynamic from outside of the box, rather than from within as the only class they play.
    2. There seems to be some confusion in your response pertaining to what I said in my original statement. You had mentioned that: "I wanted to see mesmer nerfed into the dirt" and "I didn't understand the difference between balancing a skill to ensure it's still viable, and nerfing it into obscurity" then you state that "If I did, I would give suggestions on how to do so." This confused me because, if I hadn't made any balance suggestions at all, how could someone form a basis of opinion that my balance suggestions were poor? If I had not made any balance suggestions at all, how could someone claim that I wanted to see something get nerfed into the dirt? Regardless of what your response was attempting to achieve or suggest, and its strange psychological projection there-in, I only actually said three things which were in direct response to your views of balance, not mine. Firstly I said that turning Desperate Decoy into a force trigger would be a buff, and it would be. Secondly I said that Mirage did not need extra disengage from a super speed after Blink, as you suggest in the video. Thirdly I said that I stopped watching your video when I heard the suggestion that Signet of Humility should also cast an immobilization with the Moa effect. I was confused as to how or why you read me essentially saying "Mirage doesn't need buffs" and then turned it into "Me wanting to see Mirage nerfed into the dirt" in your response. That didn't make sense to me.
    3. I can see that you don't pay much attention to feedback that doesn't offer balance suggestions, so I'll give my balance suggestions here and now, this way no one is confused as to quite exactly where I stand concerning "What should happen to Mirage." To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output. I believe a better balance could be achieved through changing how Infinite Horizon and Illusionary Ambush work. First let's talk Infinite Horizon. Most players would say that the fundamental problem is Mirage Cloak itself, allowing the Mirage to essentially dodge while still attacking. I think Mirage Cloak and Ambush skills are fine. I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved, while allowing those clones to land Ambush skills and lay down the pressure of potential Shatters. There is no other class/build in the game now or ever, that could play 100% defensively like this, while still laying down enough attrition AND burst pressure, to be able to threaten even builds that are designed to Bunker vs. conditions. That's a lot of damage reward for complete full defensive play. Other classes/builds most choose "Is it the right time to land offensive pressure? Or should I stay defensive, lay off the attack and make sure I survive?" The Mirage can do both simultaneously. Although this is obnoxious in design, I feel it is balanced up until the point where a player selects Infinite Horizon. At that point, Infinite Horizon turns an already obnoxious mechanical design into something that is too powerful not only mechanically, but also attribute tied with its no cool-down clone ambush hard damage. If it were up to me, Infinite Horizon would receive a 10 second cool-down. This would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently punish attackers with clone Ambush damage, each an every time the attacker chooses to go offensive instead of defensive "remember, other classes can't do both in the same way a Mirage can." With a 10 second cool down, it would mitigate the ambush damage output and force the Mirage to choose more wisely when he should or should not burn a Mirage Cloak. Now Illusionary Ambush, this skill is just too powerful in design. So not only is it an instant cast 1200 range teleport that works as either immediately shifting kiting into shatter position or for mobility disengage when using enemy targeting wisely, but it also breaks enemy target, functions as half a stun break positionally, creates Mirage Cloak, and then procs more Ambush skills. That's a lot of utility for a 20 second cool-down skill. Illusionary Ambush should be reduced to 900 range or less, and its cool-down should be increased to at least 30 seconds, maybe more. this would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently on demand choose whether he wants to be away from you or on top of your head. This would force the Mirage to more wisely choose if it was important to use Illusionary Ambush or not, instead of allowing him to so freely spam the long range 20 second cool-down skill. But that about sums up my balance suggestions. After Mirage is properly nerfed "no cop-out reworks", then I want to see Boonbeasts & Holosmiths get hit.
    4. You said I make "blanket statements." Let's talk a bit about that. So, people have to understand that when another person makes a generalized statement, that doesn't always mean it is an actual blanket statement. More often than not, it just means that the person has identified that most people in demographic they are speaking to already understand/associate with their point of view, so why take the time to write out what I did in the above? It's much easier and saves a lot of time in a discussion to simply drop their two cents worth and say "Yeah, I agree it needs nerfs." It doesn't mean they are ignorant, and it doesn't mean they are making blanket statements. If a person were pointing fingers at a majority opinion and calling it a blanket statement, I would suspect that person was part of a minority demographic, and was resorting to despot measures to discredit others in the debacle, because that person couldn't build legitimate credit for their own points of view, because no one agreed with them. But regardless, the hundreds of elaborately well explained text walls that I've written in this forum are hardly blanket statements.

    ~ Cheers

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    Yes, I do have a vendetta towards seeing Mirage nerfed because it should receive the same exact treatment that other specializations are given when they are clearly over performing, which is getting nerfed. I am sick & tired of seeing Mirage allowed so many get out of jail free cards in-game and even when it comes to game design. Every other class gets nerfed, they don't get fancy schmancy reworks that push around & reallocate the sources of their strengths without actually dumbing it down.

    Yeah this is literal nonsense. Every balance patch features a variety of buffs and nerfs for most classes.

    A balance patch will nerf Rousing Resiliance's Duration to have 50% the duration and shaves 20% of the healing, but then adds huge amounts of endurance regeneration to Signet of Stamina making it best in slot. Death Perception will lose 16% of it's bonus crit chance, but Reaper's Onslaught gives permanent quickness while in Shroud and Lingering Curse gets buffed to have more condition damage and it makes Scepter 3 AoE. That's true across all classes.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

    It's what happens when the Devs listen to forum QQ instead of feedback from mesmer mains.
    Mirage could have been fixed 5 months after PoF if they had listened to people that actually played the class.

    But since the mesmer has perma evade ( it doesnt) infinite dodges ( also a lie) saiyan defense (lol wat) and perma vigor ( also a no) Perma stealth ( when?)
    it obviously needed pointless random nerfs
    Thanks Anet. Glad the forum QQ helped so much.

    Anet listen to crybabies only because this hush them ,its their priority ,so they bark off . They dont have priority to balance/make things better or whatnot.

    Well, mirage is a cyber bully class after all, off they will cry for nerfs.

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 "I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved"

    Did you even watch the video? I mentioned this specifically. Here, I'll even timestamp it for you. 15:45 just in case. But yeah there's no point in continuing to go in circles with you if you're mentioning things that I've already covered, sorry.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @SPESHAL.9106 said:
    What's sad is that all these nerfs are needed even AFTER a full year of nerfs to Mesmers. How did Mesmers pass internal testing even before all these nerfs??? Did nobody test Mesmers internally as they were a year ago???

    It's what happens when the Devs listen to forum QQ instead of feedback from mesmer mains.
    Mirage could have been fixed 5 months after PoF if they had listened to people that actually played the class.

    But since the mesmer has perma evade ( it doesnt) infinite dodges ( also a lie) saiyan defense (lol wat) and perma vigor ( also a no) Perma stealth ( when?)
    it obviously needed pointless random nerfs
    Thanks Anet. Glad the forum QQ helped so much.

    Anet listen to crybabies only because this hush them ,its their priority ,so they bark off . They dont have priority to balance/make things better or whatnot.

    Well, mirage is a cyber bully class after all, off they will cry for nerfs.

    hahahahah "Cyber Bully Class"...oh wait...you were serious....BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Gimmie your lunch money :trollface:

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Although this is just my opinion, it is also the opinion of 90% or greater of this community, in-forum and in-game.
    ...
    To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output.

    I'm in a similar camp where I think damage output should be toned down while mostly preserving defenses, according to Mirage's slippery trickster concept. I'd be fine with your changes to IH and IA. Unfortunately, from what I see in this forum, I think at least half of that "90% or greater of this community" you mention would still be unsatisfied and take to complaining and demanding moar nerfs. A lot of them simply despise the evasive nature of the profession, feeling like they're impossible to hit, and have too many ways to escape. They come here posting laundry lists of every potential defensive skill/trait available to the profession as proof positive that it's busted, without actually understanding the builds, limitations, and tradeoffs being made. They have a hard time with Mirages and that's all they need to know to vilify them as everything that's wrong with PvP. Too many buy into the easy ego-preserver that losing to a Mirage is 100% because Mirage is broken, and not that they made mistakes or could stand to learn and improve. If more took the time to play and understand the profession like you, before shooting off misguided complaints and calls for inappropriate nerfs, the health of the game and the community would be better.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Although this is just my opinion, it is also the opinion of 90% or greater of this community, in-forum and in-game.
    ...
    To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output.

    I'm in a similar camp where I think damage output should be toned down while mostly preserving defenses, according to Mirage's slippery trickster concept. I'd be fine with your changes to IH and IA. Unfortunately, from what I see in this forum, I think at least half of that "90% or greater of this community" you mention would still be unsatisfied and take to complaining and demanding moar nerfs. A lot of them simply despise the evasive nature of the profession, feeling like they're impossible to hit, and have too many ways to escape. They come here posting laundry lists of every potential defensive skill/trait available to the profession as proof positive that it's busted, without actually understanding the builds, limitations, and tradeoffs being made. They have a hard time with Mirages and that's all they need to know to vilify them as everything that's wrong with PvP. Too many buy into the easy ego-preserver that losing to a Mirage is 100% because Mirage is broken, and not that they made mistakes or could stand to learn and improve. If more took the time to play and understand the profession like you, before shooting off misguided complaints and calls for inappropriate nerfs, the health of the game and the community would be better.

    This I can get behind - trimming the ancilliary condi application and overall spam damage output while preserving the ability to burst (providing opponents with clear attacks to avoid rather than thinking they lose unless they avoid everything), but leaving the mind trickery alone.

    It's nice to read that at least there seems to be this realisation of focus on one specific aspect that should be reigned in, rather than "nuke everything from orbit - stealth, evade, invuln, detarget, teleport, condi spam, damage, instacast" etc...

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As I said in my other thread, the problem is that it's simply doing too much all at once. If you're a bunker, that's fine. If you're mobility, that's fine. If you're offense, that's fine. What's not fine is that condi mirage is all three at once. One of those things has to go.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    As I said in my other thread, the problem is that it's simply doing too much all at once. If you're a bunker, that's fine. If you're mobility, that's fine. If you're offense, that's fine. What's not fine is that condi mirage is all three at once. One of those things has to go.

    Just to be sure, are we talking holo and soulbeast here too?

    The degenerate

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