Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] - Page 15 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

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  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far.

    It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge.

    No, it wasn't terrible.

    Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

    You say this as if everyone playing high-end PvE content doesn't always have their finger on the right mouse button, where dodging in any direction is just a flick of the wrist and a left click away. But sure, lets say that everyone who plays Mirage in PvE is 75% potato and can't figure that out. That doesn't mean that the duration of Mirage Cloak can't be split from PvE, and have a normalized evade frame in sPvP/WvW.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far.

    It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge.

    No, it wasn't terrible.

    Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

    You say this as if everyone playing high-end PvE content doesn't always have their finger on the right mouse button, where dodging in any direction is just a flick of the wrist and a left click away. But sure, lets say that everyone who plays Mirage in PvE is 75% potato and can't figure that out. That doesn't mean that the duration of Mirage Cloak can't be split from PvE, and have a normalized evade frame in sPvP/WvW.

    Since I can't edit for some reason:
    I see you aren't talking about just raid content, you mean PvP and WvW, too? The keyword you yourself used here was DemoWEEKEND. That is not nearly enough time to make a decision that the most core function of GW2 combat, dodging, needs to be increased on one profession only just because people couldn't get the hang of it over the course of one weekend. And unfortunately, ANET listened to the whines of players who couldn't handle a slight change, and held their hands and haven't let go since.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far.

    It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge.

    No, it wasn't terrible. And it won't be terrible now, though the tears will rain from the sky as Mirage mains have to re-adjust to the fair evade frames. It was players just starting a new playstyle and learning it. Considering you gain superspeed while in Mirage Cloak, the distance is equal.

    So because this is a game with more than just PvP, the .75 dodge was especially terrible in PvE where lingering aoe's and deathspots exist and .75 seconds of superspeed was not enough to get out of them in time without taking heavy damage or dying. Thus 1 second.

    .75s Normal dodge = 300 units.
    .75s Superspeed in combat = 300 units.

    ?????????

    Forward only, and even with the rmb pressed you still have to take time to rotate and move. The dodge length isn't even the issue with Mirage. it's condition output and variety, and dodging while cc'ed.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far.

    It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge.

    No, it wasn't terrible.

    Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

    You say this as if everyone playing high-end PvE content doesn't always have their finger on the right mouse button, where dodging in any direction is just a flick of the wrist and a left click away. But sure, lets say that everyone who plays Mirage in PvE is 75% potato and can't figure that out. That doesn't mean that the duration of Mirage Cloak can't be split from PvE, and have a normalized evade frame in sPvP/WvW.

    Are you not also guilty of assuming that everyone is a robot who is travelling in the direction to leave AoE at the exact millisecond of using mirage cloak?

    Are you not also being extreme over how you classify people? Just because someone might be human and have a reaction time of 0.2s which is average you assume that makes them an arbitrary 75% potato while ignoring some pretty OK reasons from people.

    Did you actually play mirage in the beta weekend? I did and mirage cloak and ambushes were very clunky where half the time you couldn't even use ambush skills because aftercasts exist that block you from using the ambush till it's done by which time you can't use the ambush.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Just make it .75s like every other profession's dodge key. The extra .25s is the biggest problem with Mirage Cloak by far.

    It was already .75s in beta and it was absolutely terrible. It was changed to 1s to cover the same distance as a normal dodge.

    No, it wasn't terrible.

    Said literally no one who played Mirage during the demoweekend except casual open world PvErs. 1 Second evade was given to mirage specifically as a direct result of how garbage and functionally unplayable the entire specialization was during the demo weekend before path of fire was released. Because you lose so much ability to physically get out of danger with mirage cloak because of the loss of mobility the extra evade frames are there to help give a bit of buffer should you need to about face and run out of fire, literally in some circumstances. Because at 0.75s any time you need to about face, or change any direction and move yourself out of danger you've effectively lost evade frames overall compared to a standard dodge roll no matter how fast you move yourself out of danger, mathematically.

    Exactly this. Anyone who actually played Mirage during beta weekend saw that Mirage Cloak at .75s was just flat out bad and needed to go to 1s. But I won't let get facts in the way of how someone feels.

  • I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

  • You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics.

    But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:
    You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics.

    But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair.

    No one runs portal anymore.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:
    You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics.

    But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair.

    No one runs portal anymore.

    That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:
    You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics.

    But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair.

    No one runs portal anymore.

    That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage.

    With a 30 second window it is indeed useless and garbage.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:
    You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics.

    But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair.

    No one runs portal anymore.

    That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage.

    With a 30 second window it is indeed useless and garbage.

    its fine if used with purpose...
    Not being able to drop a portal and use it as a get out of jail free card has been a harsh adjustment though

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

  • Mirages make more mirages. How is that not OP. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:
    You have stealth/z-axis teleports and portal plays to get out of danger. Logically, it should still be playable because Mirage DOES damage even with a 0.75 cloak. The complaint is, when Mirage gets nerfed Mesmer gets nerfed, so why not just target Mirage mechanics instead of Mesmer mechanics.

    But fine how about this, Mirage cloak prevents capturing a point. Sounds fair.

    No one runs portal anymore.

    That doesn't mean it's useless and garbage.

    With a 30 second window it is indeed useless and garbage.

    its fine if used with purpose...
    Not being able to drop a portal and use it as a get out of jail free card has been a harsh adjustment though

    None of the mesmers I saw on Jawgeous or Jebros MAT coverage last month were running Portal. I personally haven't seen it run in ranked or unranked since it's nerf.

    But if you want to educate all those Mirages who've previously won Best of the Best and top 25 league titles and show them how inferior they are compared to you intellectually be my guest.

    well theres no need to bring the nails out, the harsh adjustment was a personal reflection as thats how I used portal. It was my get out of jail free card.

    Id say its extremely weird for someone to get upset by that but this is the pvp subsection so I guess I shouldn't expect anything less.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Now I get why Anet doesn't communicate with the PvP subsection...
    Vial of salt - check
    Llamas hiding from players and thier unnecessary aggression - check
    Jokes about the "Gorillas in the mists" - check

    wonder what the next joke will be to reflect our community.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.
    We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.
    We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab.
    We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough.
    We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

    But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced."

    Hah, don't strain yourself trying to be ironic. Perma swiftness TOO POWERFUL. Better watch out for those 2 evades and uhh... no teleports.

    Yes, holo is powerful, and it should be nerfed (I say this as an engi main). But it's not the biggest problem in the room either.

    Who would have thought perma swiftness allows to escape better than a profession without any swiftness access! Oh you coveniently forgot perma-vigor...and leaps.
    No, the biggest problem is sb.

    But I find rather curious that you playing quoting you "conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage" complain about a profession who is countered by yours.
    So if mirage is op and countered by holo, that makes holo...?!

    1. Most classes have access to perma-swiftness, except guardian or necro. This is generally a moot point in most competitive matches.
    2. Again, what you're talking about is irrelevant to the discussion, because this thread is focused on condi mirage. I hope the thread title isn't unclear.
    3. Don't be obtuse about what I wrote. I said my build was designed SPECIFICALLY to counter condi mirage, and even then, it only does enough to scare them off. I can still be murdered by them if I don't play it just right, and it only works as a counter in 1v1.

    Please do tell me how can I get perma-swiftness on mirage.
    Oh but I know it is about condi mirage like a dozen other threads on pvp forums, just doing a comparison between condi mirage and holo.
    Conv holo counters mirage, no need to design a build specifically, and if you scare them off, you won. Like every other profession on game, you don't play right you lose.

    I see your tree, and raise you a forest. Your post is a shining example of what I started this thread about. :smile:

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Get to top100 and you will see less mirages

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @viquing.8254 said:

    @Luna.6203 said:
    honest question I know that i'm not important enough to get some official answer. But i'm going to try it anyway. Please can any community manager ansfer me:
    **Are you going to nerf mirage-mesmer or not ? ** or are you planning to ?

    Actually when we spend hours doing balance suggestions with nerfs and up who answer literraly every main things peoples are crying about mesmer while not letting mesmers be useless then when you see only 3 mesmer participate in this post while 90% of players prefering create new : "nerf mersmer, nerf mesmer, ..." posts...
    Same for other balance suggestion posts other than "nerf all" because "I don't play mesmer so I don't care as long as I just one shot them."
    What to say... 90% of people are just no productive sentimental who will never have an overall vision of what they ask for.

    The truth is that, if Mirage would be smiters booned next patch, the 90% would throw a giant dance party on mirages grave.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Id say its extremely weird for someone to get upset by that but this is the pvp subsection so I guess I shouldn't expect anything less.

    It wasn't you who got temporarily banned from forums a couple of weeks ago or last week?

    The degenerate

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone remember HS spam?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    The degenerate

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Anyone remember HS spam?

    I said "except short time after release" and you link a video almost right after release... =D

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Chorazin.4107Chorazin.4107 Member ✭✭✭

    The changes are difficult to assess, unless you deem the mesmer class as a whole including base mesmer as overperforming. If it is just Mirage then the changes should be specific to the Mirage weapon set, traits, and skills.

    Otoh if base mesmer and chrono are overperforming as well, adjustments need to be made across the entire class.

    [lion] - [tRex] - [nâh/UwU/yep]

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Id say its extremely weird for someone to get upset by that but this is the pvp subsection so I guess I shouldn't expect anything less.

    It wasn't you who got temporarily banned from forums a couple of weeks ago or last week?

    I'm too blunt sometimes and a bit of an kitten.. Im also Australian and jokes can be taken the wrong way.
    Ontop of that, even though I speak for myself and from my own perspective, some people get defensive for no reason or aggressive and my kitten Australian personality kicks in and decides to stir the pot for a laugh... I rightfully get banned frequently for this and Im sure most devs could confirm that for you.

    I've sadly been around a while but only a few users here such as Crab can see it for what it is, a bit of fun..

    In this case, @mortrialus.3062 usually doesn't respond in such a manner which is why I was shocked and left my last comment, for all I know he was in a previous heated engagement with someone.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    So necros now win against thief :)
    As for mirage, 2xecto, steal every boon from BD, condi cleanse on demand, higher evade uptime, more mobility on combat.
    Guess you're "being horribly outskilled".

    The degenerate

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kappa.2036 said:
    The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.
    Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

    Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.
    We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...
    In my opinion, mirage cloak should not be accessible if you are stunned or immobilized, exactly like a regular dodge. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

    I agree with promoting good and healthy gameplay but you are singling Mesmer which is not just at all. Thief itself can elude everything and can perma evade everything.

    What is not good and not healthy is making exceptions and to point fingers at one instead of the other, Anet must examine ALL unhealthy and toxic gameplay by All professions alike-with no exceptions

  • Rysdude.3824Rysdude.3824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rank eleven monk.9502 said:
    Get to top100 and you will see less mirages

    Genuinely curious question here as Im not a PvPer but have seen this said more than once. Which professions are most common in the top 100?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Man U mesmers alway bring up other classes when mesmers are being called out. Mesmers as a whole may have high skill cap but also lowest to be effective. The only op thing about thief is DE due to traits in its trait line like stealth on dodge. Every mesmer spec is far easier than any class to be effective especially Condi Mirage due to its bloated toolkit and its game breaking mechanics. The reason thief’s ten times the nurf mirage threads vs even DE tells a story also why there’s so many new mesmer players jumping on the easy mode class, u gonna tell me core/dd are easy mode? Try fighting a soulbeast,guard or holo on DD or core and see how u do compared to ur mesmer. I’ve geared mesmer for pvp and wvw and it is not comparable to thief in any way other than mesmers being given most of the thief’s tools lol most players actually run after my first Condi shatter burst where as on thief usually I’m the one resetting to re engage lol

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ten times nerf mirage threads vs even deadeye tells a story,sry cant edit my posts anymore for some reason

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    So necros now win against thief :)
    As for mirage, 2xecto, steal every boon from BD, condi cleanse on demand, higher evade uptime, more mobility on combat.
    Guess you're "being horribly outskilled".

    Condi cleanse in demand =DDD Thief can cleanse only 3 conditions once every 30 seconds because you can't use Shadowstep since it a) cleanses condi on second part so due to perma 16+stacks of Confusion you can't use it b) Is thieves only hope of surviving the fight and even that is questionable since Illusionary Ambush which has god kitten 20 sec CD.
    Mirage has numerous ways to Interrupt plasma and it's been proven in other thread that Mirage has just slightly lower evade uptime than S/D Thief so good luck getting it in the first place.

    Yes, Necro can win vs Thief much much more easily than can Thief win vs Mirage since anyone who's not dumb will shut down IR by Wurm or Spectral walk, so since Necro (both Reaper and Scourge) has more hard CCs than Thief has stunbreaks the possibility of Thief getting insta-gibbed after some time in fight with Necro is so kitten high, unlike when fighting Mirage where everything is completely rng due to ridiculously low CDs on detarget skills.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Man U mesmers alway bring up other classes when mesmers are being called out. Mesmers as a whole may have high skill cap but also lowest to be effective. The only op thing about thief is DE due to traits in its trait line like stealth on dodge. Every mesmer spec is far easier than any class to be effective especially Condi Mirage due to its bloated toolkit and its game breaking mechanics. The reason thief’s ten times the nurf mirage threads vs even DE tells a story also why there’s so many new mesmer players jumping on the easy mode class, u gonna tell me core/dd are easy mode? Try fighting a soulbeast,guard or holo on DD or core and see how u do compared to ur mesmer. I’ve geared mesmer for pvp and wvw and it is not comparable to thief in any way other than mesmers being given most of the thief’s tools lol most players actually run after my first Condi shatter burst where as on thief usually I’m the one resetting to re engage lol

    Burnfall isn't a mesmer.

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    So necros now win against thief :)
    As for mirage, 2xecto, steal every boon from BD, condi cleanse on demand, higher evade uptime, more mobility on combat.
    Guess you're "being horribly outskilled".

    Condi cleanse in demand =DDD Thief can cleanse only 3 conditions once every 30 seconds because you can't use Shadowstep since it a) cleanses condi on second part so due to perma 16+stacks of Confusion you can't use it b) Is thieves only hope of surviving the fight and even that is questionable since Illusionary Ambush which has god kitten 20 sec CD.
    Mirage has numerous ways to Interrupt plasma and it's been proven in other thread that Mirage has just slightly lower evade uptime than S/D Thief so good luck getting it in the first place.

    Yes, Necro can win vs Thief much much more easily than can Thief win vs Mirage since anyone who's not dumb will shut down IR by Wurm or Spectral walk, so since Necro (both Reaper and Scourge) has more hard CCs than Thief has stunbreaks the possibility of Thief getting insta-gibbed after some time in fight with Necro is so kitten high, unlike when fighting Mirage where everything is completely rng due to ridiculously low CDs on detarget skills.

    If you get hit by 16+stacks of confusion with a thief, you're playing poorly. F2 is usually done after axe 3 which is has a big dodge me sign on it.
    Numerous ways to interrupt?! Lucky proc from chaos storm and F3 (clones running to you) unless you consume plasma at melee range, which is, again, poor play.
    As for dealing with condis - signet, shadowstep, sd 2.

    I think necros will disagree on that one.

    Edit: forgot about the slightly lower evade uptime. Check again the vigor uptime on each profession.

    The degenerate

  • rank eleven monk.9502rank eleven monk.9502 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @Rysdude.3824 said:

    @rank eleven monk.9502 said:
    Get to top100 and you will see less mirages

    Genuinely curious question here as Im not a PvPer but have seen this said more than once. Which professions are most common in the top 100?

    Well I think there are no real outliers.

    Condi mirage, boonbeast, scourge, FB (mostly duo), rev, holo are the most common, in no particular order.
    Next tier, aka a bit less played is warrior (SB mainly, and some core), thieves (varying builds), core guard.
    Then chrono bunker, reaper, weaver.

    This is without taking a look at the actual top100 at the moment, just based on my average experience (so take it as anecdotal evidence).

    What I find interesting is, mirages, reapers maybe even scourges are under-represented at the top level in ranked compared to lower ranks, while for example revenants are more common. But yeah that's mostly because of different skill caps probably.

    @schloumou.3982 said:
    Ben stated somewhere that Mirage is the most played profession of the final teams in ATs, followed by Holo if i remember correctly.

    I would actually interested in that, if you find the post itself.

    Also AT-s are pretty different from ranked que

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Man U mesmers alway bring up other classes when mesmers are being called out. Mesmers as a whole may have high skill cap but also lowest to be effective. The only op thing about thief is DE due to traits in its trait line like stealth on dodge. Every mesmer spec is far easier than any class to be effective especially Condi Mirage due to its bloated toolkit and its game breaking mechanics. The reason thief’s ten times the nurf mirage threads vs even DE tells a story also why there’s so many new mesmer players jumping on the easy mode class, u gonna tell me core/dd are easy mode? Try fighting a soulbeast,guard or holo on DD or core and see how u do compared to ur mesmer. I’ve geared mesmer for pvp and wvw and it is not comparable to thief in any way other than mesmers being given most of the thief’s tools lol most players actually run after my first Condi shatter burst where as on thief usually I’m the one resetting to re engage lol

    Burnfall isn't a mesmer.

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    So necros now win against thief :)
    As for mirage, 2xecto, steal every boon from BD, condi cleanse on demand, higher evade uptime, more mobility on combat.
    Guess you're "being horribly outskilled".

    Condi cleanse in demand =DDD Thief can cleanse only 3 conditions once every 30 seconds because you can't use Shadowstep since it a) cleanses condi on second part so due to perma 16+stacks of Confusion you can't use it b) Is thieves only hope of surviving the fight and even that is questionable since Illusionary Ambush which has god kitten 20 sec CD.
    Mirage has numerous ways to Interrupt plasma and it's been proven in other thread that Mirage has just slightly lower evade uptime than S/D Thief so good luck getting it in the first place.

    Yes, Necro can win vs Thief much much more easily than can Thief win vs Mirage since anyone who's not dumb will shut down IR by Wurm or Spectral walk, so since Necro (both Reaper and Scourge) has more hard CCs than Thief has stunbreaks the possibility of Thief getting insta-gibbed after some time in fight with Necro is so kitten high, unlike when fighting Mirage where everything is completely rng due to ridiculously low CDs on detarget skills.

    If you get hit by 16+stacks of confusion with a thief, you're playing poorly. F2 is usually done after axe 3 which is has a big dodge me sign on it.
    Numerous ways to interrupt?! Lucky proc from chaos storm and F3 (clones running to you) unless you consume plasma at melee range, which is, again, poor play.
    As for dealing with condis - signet, shadowstep, sd 2.

    I think necros will disagree on that one.

    F2 is not the main source of Confusion in the most broken and overused builds nor even its main dmg nor is it actually even required to be used at all since you benefit so much more from keeping the clones for cover and for Distort, how can you defend Mirage without even knowing this.

    I like how you ignored the fact which I stated that Thief can't use Shadwostep to clense and just slapped it in your post anyway because out of arguments I guess, completely the same goes for IS as it removes only one kitten condi out of cca 4 that are permanently on you and Confusion is NOT the priorities one in the order of condi removal, not to mention this skill once again damages you before cleansing the one condi.

    Also, you forget that F3 interrupts on each clone so almost every time you get interrupted twice by this skill due to the good ol' Daze bug that prevents you from moving, changing current direction or even dodging, which is by the way caused by the spam of it which is of course case of F3 clones.
    Next you "forget" about interrupt of Torch 5 and in case of Scepter build the Pistol 5.

    Necros are welcome to disagree if they like, but I play Necro in Rank too and Thieves are absolutely nowhere near the great threat you are making them out to be, to me.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Aplethoraof.2643Aplethoraof.2643 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @Stallic.2397 said:
    I love that people told me it's my skill level and not the fact that mirage is over powered. So I switched to my mirage and now I'm trolling/dominating every player I come across.

    Best part is now I'm getting tons of hate whispers in spvp cause I'm supposedly playing the most over powered class in the game. Go figure!

    This. Though, back when I was saying mirage was OP no-one was deluded enough to argue against it. I guess now that Scourge is out of the spot-light, mirage players who want to keep being OP have no patsy to hide behind.

    Don't worry mirage players. Anet won't nerf you into non-existence, mesmer has always been relevant and always will be relevant. They'll just make it a fair playing field. I know no-one likes nerfs but as long as you are actually skilled with it, you'll be fine post-nerf. If you get nerfed into oblivion on accident, I'll be the first to suggest a buff :)

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

  • @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    • We can talk about their ability to spam conditions and power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.
    • We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, and blocks they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.
    • We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to mirage cloak, making punishing them for screwing up worthless.
    • We can talk about stealth and detargets, and how it makes combat with them unpleasant.
    • We can talk about their ability to teleport great distances and skip out when things get too rough.
    • We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

    But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that condi mirage is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, condi mirage is balanced."

    PS: I play a conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage, and it can still beat me if I screw up. I almost never get a kill because they run away first

    Pointing finger at Mesmer again??
    Making exceptions?

    Thief, warrior, ranger not included?

    36e7vz.jpg

    Excellent whataboutism.

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

  • Kicast.1459Kicast.1459 Member ✭✭✭

    Mirage everywhere...but not in AT
    Too stronk for sure.
    Only forum spammers know the true reality.
    AT finalists just have to L2P.
    Blindness and narrow mindset is so depressing.

  • UfoCoffee.2084UfoCoffee.2084 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Hahahaha what? You must be joking? Thief can't 1v1 or hold a point and gets 1 shot.

    Mesmer is the complete opposite. Very funny. I barely see thieves in my games. Unless they're a feeding deadeye or rarely a slightly annoying d/p mosquito.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    Take exhaustion off elusive mind and put it on mirage cloak itself causing exhaustion on stunbreak and Condi removal if ulusive mind is traited Their now it would be comparable to unhindered combatant trait. Naming shadowstels etc as stunbreak to defend mirage cloak is ridiculous because it’s a SKILL not a built in mechanic and has a decent CD, which mirage has other similar skills so. Better yet make mesmers blocks all 1 1/4 seconds like the one block thief has lol.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @rank eleven monk.9502 said:

    @schloumou.3982 said:
    Ben stated somewhere that Mirage is the most played profession of the final teams in ATs, followed by Holo if i remember correctly.

    I would actually interested in that, if you find the post itself.

    Also AT-s are pretty different from ranked que

    No post but Holo was at 12.7% play rate, behind Mirage in ATs.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    U mesmers do nothing but give sad defensive argument that always deflect to other classes,every time! Soulbeast,holo and DE need toned down too, so what? There’s threads for those too. Stating things about them that are op doesn’t justify anything regarding how brokenirage currently is

  • UfoCoffee.2084UfoCoffee.2084 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cheeseball C.8395 said:

    My last post was maybe nerfing mirage by removing evades off clones' infinite horizon trait. Some mesmers got on my post and tell me to get good or to play it so i did. This is me facerolling day 2, i'm bad at this class but can do BS like this.

    Try another by clicking all your skills. Probably the same result 😆

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    > @Daishi.6027 said:

    After I stun a mirage I just wait for them to waste their evades while I save my cooldowns so that they are open and can't use their ambush.

    Vs more clever mirages I initiate an attack and just stow to bait them.

    If it's a poor position I'll take the time to actively play around the illusions to reduce any of the mirage's momentum and starve them of offensive options.

    You may not like that they can evade while stunned, but I think of it as a good opportunity to remind them of the futility of their struggles >=3

    Whoa there! You mean to say you adjust your actions to actively play around a game mechanic?! Heresy! Everyone knows that you have to immediately press the damage buttons after landing a CC - that's the only way to win!

    Actually, a lot of times you do.

    Eg. Magnet on Engineer. This skill's main purpose is to set up a couple of otherwise hard to land skills and ensure maximum damage - Pry Bar, Blowtorch, Rocket Kick, Blunderbuss(melee range). The actual window for CC damage after a magnet pull is pretty short - maybe 0.5s? - so you only get 1 shot at it. If a mirage can dodge after being pulled, you've wasted your CC and your damage. You can't wait a second assuming they'll dodge, because you don't know if they will or not (maybe they're bad. maybe they're out of dodges, maybe they're saving it?) so you have to try for the damage anyway. If you wait to see whether they'll dodge, you've missed your damage window. This is really frustrating because magnet is on a much longer cooldown than Mirage's dodges.

    Eg. Most CC's on Warrior. You want to Bull's Charge or Shield Bash to set up a long Hundred Blades. You're just never going to get any damage out of Hundred Blades without a CC to lock the opponent in place first. If they can just dodge AFTER you hit them and avoid your HB, you've now wasted 2 skills and they didn't have to make the skillful play of seeing the incoming CC and reacting to it. (There is a lot of skill required here! You need to see the incoming attack, decide whether it's Shield Bash, Bull's Charge, or Headbutt, blind/counter-cc if it's Bash or Headbutt, otherwise block or Dodge. Always dodge if they've got signet of might active or something like that. All in a span of ~0.5s! ). Instead, you get to see the incoming CC, take it to the face, then get even more time to start your (longer) dodge and avoid the follow-up damage.

    I could keep going for many of the CCs in the game - most of them required to set up damage, basically all of them on longer cooldown than dodge.

    If this is how you view it you are setting up wrong and in a very linear way of thinking. This is part of the problem with the PvP community.

    You do not blow all your CC when you know your opponent has stability, right? Like wise with the builds you mentioned that rely on those setups, you do not open on a mirage with CC when he has full dodges, unless you are hard reading how they intend to dodge.

    If you understand the class well enough and their options, you can understand how to out play it. In addition many mirage use their evade’s ambush for offense or to cover skills. In light of that it’s not hard to bait or force out all their evades before you go for a kill set up.

    Dodge or not it doesn't freaking Matter when they have an f4 ability and a kitten load of ways to get Vigor to continue dodging so easily. The Class is beyond busted and annoying as hell to play.

    Ways to get Vigor/endurance :

    1:Shatter(2 sec of vigor give or take per shatter on F ability)
    2:False Oasis
    3:Arcane Thievery
    4:Critical Infusion
    5:Rune of Adventure

    just those 5 basic ways makes it close to impossible to know when a mirage has no more "endurance" and EVEN if they did run out you still need to watch out for their F4 which gives them distortion and along with Mirage mirror. The whole spec is really just god kitten awful for this game and every "nerf" they have done to the class has literally done almost noting at all hence why every possible spec u can come up with on mirage is broken in some way.

    Every trait they have just makes the entire spec so god kitten powerful.

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