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Raid team compositions in Snowcrows


Agrippa.1693

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@Yasi.9065 said:

DH is op atm, way too much burst, they absolutely have to reduce that, preferably by reverting the changes to dragonhunter traits, so power firebrand doesnt get kitten. Condi renegade is a close second to that, and mirage is on third place, but only because its unsuited on a lot of bosses due to confusion being so horribly reworked (its either completely OP, or not worth at all).

DH sustained damage is not that high. It's just decent on every boss you can't burst. Nerfing DH burst will just make it undesired like it was for years. Reverting changes to dragonhunter traits.... Have you played that before? It had weak burst AND weak consistent dps. It was power rene levels of bad.You can outdamage a DH on almost every boss in a pug with an autoattacking Daredevil because phases are too long with low dps squads.Mirage is super strong on slow attacking bosses aswell. Its just broken. Condi Rene is also just decent on most bosses.Mirage is #1. Not third. You play it an every condi boss and be top except for dhuum.

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DH is op atm, way too much burst, they absolutely have to reduce that, preferably by reverting the changes to dragonhunter traits, so power firebrand doesnt get kitten. Condi renegade is a close second to that, and mirage is on third place, but only because its unsuited on a lot of bosses due to confusion being so horribly reworked (its either completely OP, or not worth at all).

This is so untrue. DH is OP? It's literally not brought for anything only for the fact people like playing it.

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DH is op atm, way too much burst, they absolutely have to reduce that, preferably by reverting the changes to dragonhunter traits, so power firebrand doesnt get kitten. Condi renegade is a close second to that, and mirage is on third place, but only because its unsuited on a lot of bosses due to confusion being so horribly reworked (its either completely OP, or not worth at all).

This is so untrue. DH is OP? It's literally not brought for anything only for the fact people like playing it.

And how would you know that? Whats your sources? Please dont tell me gw2raidar. On the other hand, I know for a fact that at least 1 speedclear guild is running at least 1 dh on the majority of raidbosses. Only because they like playing dh? No, sorry, but you are misinformed there.But lets just wait until after next raidwing release and teapots ERP, if Anet doesnt nerf it before then, you'll see how OP DH atm is.

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DH is op atm, way too much burst, they absolutely have to reduce that, preferably by reverting the changes to dragonhunter traits, so power firebrand doesnt get kitten. Condi renegade is a close second to that, and mirage is on third place, but only because its unsuited on a lot of bosses due to confusion being so horribly reworked (its either completely OP, or not worth at all).

This is so untrue. DH is OP? It's literally not brought for anything only for the fact people like playing it.

And how would you know that? Whats your sources? Please dont tell me gw2raidar. On the other hand, I know for a fact that at least 1 speedclear guild is running at least 1 dh on the majority of raidbosses. Only because they like playing dh? No, sorry, but you are misinformed there.But lets just wait until after next raidwing release and teapots ERP, if Anet doesnt nerf it before then, you'll see how OP DH atm is.

SC must have listed it as meta on 8 bosses because they like playing it. :^)

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DH is op atm, way too much burst, they absolutely have to reduce that, preferably by reverting the changes to dragonhunter traits, so power firebrand doesnt get kitten. Condi renegade is a close second to that, and mirage is on third place, but only because its unsuited on a lot of bosses due to confusion being so horribly reworked (its either completely OP, or not worth at all).

This is so untrue. DH is OP? It's literally not brought for anything only for the fact people like playing it.

And how would you know that? Whats your sources? Please dont tell me gw2raidar. On the other hand, I know for a fact that at least 1 speedclear guild is running at least 1 dh on the majority of raidbosses. Only because they like playing dh? No, sorry, but you are misinformed there.But lets just wait until after next raidwing release and teapots ERP, if Anet doesnt nerf it before then, you'll see how OP DH atm is.

SC must have listed it as meta on 8 bosses because they like playing it. :^)

Nobody cares about statues and river so only 6 bosses. DH has burst. It's only optimal with VERY high squad dps on certain bosses. Weaver, DD will pull ahead in almost every other case. It's just that DH replaced Holo almost everywhere. Single healer + self damage + undeserved bomb nerfs hurt Holo with the double scholar and slithtly too high cooldown on burst too much.DH doesn't suffer from ERP design decisions as much as Holo -> DH pull ahead

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DH is op atm, way too much burst, they absolutely have to reduce that, preferably by reverting the changes to dragonhunter traits, so power firebrand doesnt get kitten. Condi renegade is a close second to that, and mirage is on third place, but only because its unsuited on a lot of bosses due to confusion being so horribly reworked (its either completely OP, or not worth at all).

This is so untrue. DH is OP? It's literally not brought for anything only for the fact people like playing it.

And how would you know that? Whats your sources? Please dont tell me gw2raidar. On the other hand, I know for a fact that at least 1 speedclear guild is running at least 1 dh on the majority of raidbosses. Only because they like playing dh? No, sorry, but you are misinformed there.But lets just wait until after next raidwing release and teapots ERP, if Anet doesnt nerf it before then, you'll see how OP DH atm is.

SC must have listed it as meta on 8 bosses because they like playing it. :^)

Nobody cares about statues and river so only 6 bosses. DH has burst. It's only optimal with VERY high squad dps on certain bosses. Weaver, DD will pull ahead in almost every other case. It's just that DH replaced Holo almost everywhere. Single healer + self damage + undeserved bomb nerfs hurt Holo with the double scholar and slithtly too high cooldown on burst too much.DH doesn't suffer from ERP design decisions as much as Holo -> DH pull ahead

Or the fact DH brings bane signet, which neither DD or ele bring, brings F3 blocks, which neither thief or ele brings, an aoe pull, which neither ele or thief brings, or if necessary for fractals and raids brings stability, which no other class gets close to in terms of strong stab access compared to guardian. Holo doesn't bring that either.

And all of that chained with CC comparable to holo's and much better than weaver/DD.

Not everything is DPS.

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DH is op atm, way too much burst, they absolutely have to reduce that, preferably by reverting the changes to dragonhunter traits, so power firebrand doesnt get kitten. Condi renegade is a close second to that, and mirage is on third place, but only because its unsuited on a lot of bosses due to confusion being so horribly reworked (its either completely OP, or not worth at all).

This is so untrue. DH is OP? It's literally not brought for anything only for the fact people like playing it.

And how would you know that? Whats your sources? Please dont tell me gw2raidar. On the other hand, I know for a fact that at least 1 speedclear guild is running at least 1 dh on the majority of raidbosses. Only because they like playing dh? No, sorry, but you are misinformed there.But lets just wait until after next raidwing release and teapots ERP, if Anet doesnt nerf it before then, you'll see how OP DH atm is.

1 Speedclear Guild. Well Snowcrows and other Guilds don't even suggest DH's. For Qadim you're better off bringing Daredevils. For KC, deadeyes and Holo's. Ranged Demios? Rifle deadeyes will ALWAYS outdps a DH. There is literally not one Raid fight where you would bring a DH over something else specifically because of what it offers. DH's have their place, but for you to suggest they are OP because of anecdotal evidence is absurd. If they were THAT OP , everyone would be using the and they ARE NOT. If there's anyone that's misinformed, it's you.

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@Zenith.7301 said:

Or the fact DH brings bane signet, which neither DD or ele bring, brings F3 blocks, which neither thief or ele brings, an aoe pull, which neither ele or thief brings, or if necessary for fractals and raids brings stability, which no other class gets close to in terms of strong stab access compared to guardian. Holo doesn't bring that either.

And all of that chained with CC comparable to holo's and much better than weaver/DD.

Not everything is DPS.

For a DH to use Bane signet, it's a huge dps loss. A thief can bring Basi venom with strong CC and no loss to dps.

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DH is op atm, way too much burst, they absolutely have to reduce that, preferably by reverting the changes to dragonhunter traits, so power firebrand doesnt get kitten. Condi renegade is a close second to that, and mirage is on third place, but only because its unsuited on a lot of bosses due to confusion being so horribly reworked (its either completely OP, or not worth at all).

This is so untrue. DH is OP? It's literally not brought for anything only for the fact people like playing it.

And how would you know that? Whats your sources? Please dont tell me gw2raidar. On the other hand, I know for a fact that at least 1 speedclear guild is running at least 1 dh on the majority of raidbosses. Only because they like playing dh? No, sorry, but you are misinformed there.But lets just wait until after next raidwing release and teapots ERP, if Anet doesnt nerf it before then, you'll see how OP DH atm is.

SC must have listed it as meta on 8 bosses because they like playing it. :^)

Nobody cares about statues and river so only 6 bosses. DH has burst. It's only optimal with VERY high squad dps on certain bosses. Weaver, DD will pull ahead in almost every other case. It's just that DH replaced Holo almost everywhere. Single healer + self damage + undeserved bomb nerfs hurt Holo with the double scholar and slithtly too high cooldown on burst too much.DH doesn't suffer from ERP design decisions as much as Holo -> DH pull ahead

Or the fact DH brings bane signet, which neither DD or ele bring, brings F3 blocks, which neither thief or ele brings, an aoe pull, which neither ele or thief brings, or if necessary for fractals and raids brings stability, which no other class gets close to in terms of strong stab access compared to guardian. Holo doesn't bring that either.

And all of that chained with CC comparable to holo's and much better than weaver/DD.

Not everything is DPS.

DD has aoe pull on most bosses with steal skills. DD has higher breakbar damage. DH cc is not superior. Pull on f1 and gs 5 + bane signet. Trap is only 150 breakbar damage aswell.You also have to drop impact sigil for accuracy if you want to share the bane signet.F3 is nice on some bosses but thats it. Using the signet is a personal dps loss. Dh is really not op. All of his utility wouldn't be used if you lower the brust dps too much because you would just use a different profession most of the time.Weaver btw has also quite high breakbar damage. 432 without any dps loss and more with some dps loss.DH is not even meta on every fractal cm boss but lets nerf it sure.

DH has 750 breakbar damage + some soft cc. Holo has 1328 + soft cc with the normal dps build but sure almost the same.Most groups would be better off stacking DD instead of Dhs.

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@"lightinthedark.2596" said:1 Speedclear Guild. Well Snowcrows and other Guilds don't even suggest DH's.

Huuuh... The composition suggestions on Snowcro have 4 DH for Vale Guardian. 6 for Gorseval. 2 for Slothasor and Keep Construct. 5 for Deimos (Speedclear Guilds don't do Ranged starts) and one for Samarog... And in Quadim they write that DH is a good replacement for Daredevil. I think that's quite a lot of DH's being suggested to counter your "They don't even suggest DH's". Just saying...

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@Jeknar.6184 said:

@"lightinthedark.2596" said:1 Speedclear Guild. Well Snowcrows and other Guilds don't even suggest DH's.

Huuuh... The composition suggestions on Snowcro have 4 DH for Vale Guardian. 6 for Gorseval. 2 for Slothasor and Keep Construct. 5 for Deimos (Speedclear Guilds don't do Ranged starts) and one for Samarog... And in Quadim they write that DH is a good replacement for Daredevil. I think that's quite a lot of DH's being suggested to counter your "They don't even suggest DH's". Just saying...

I stand corrected. Is this since the latest patch. The last time I looked, DH's weren't even on the radar. Time to dust mine off then.

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@lightinthedark.2596 said:

@lightinthedark.2596 said:1 Speedclear Guild. Well Snowcrows and other Guilds don't even suggest DH's.

Huuuh... The composition suggestions on Snowcro have 4 DH for Vale Guardian. 6 for Gorseval. 2 for Slothasor and Keep Construct. 5 for Deimos (Speedclear Guilds don't do Ranged starts) and one for Samarog... And in Quadim they write that DH is a good replacement for Daredevil. I think that's quite a lot of DH's being suggested to counter your "They don't even suggest DH's". Just saying...

I stand corrected. Is this since the latest patch. The last time I looked, DH's weren't even on the radar. Time to dust mine off then.

Comps are updated for each patch, but they are based on what’s optimal in a speed run setting and not what’s better with pug strats and pug skill.

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@lightinthedark.2596 said:

@lightinthedark.2596 said:1 Speedclear Guild. Well Snowcrows and other Guilds don't even suggest DH's.

Huuuh... The composition suggestions on Snowcro have 4 DH for Vale Guardian. 6 for Gorseval. 2 for Slothasor and Keep Construct. 5 for Deimos (Speedclear Guilds don't do Ranged starts) and one for Samarog... And in Quadim they write that DH is a good replacement for Daredevil. I think that's quite a lot of DH's being suggested to counter your "They don't even suggest DH's". Just saying...

I stand corrected. Is this since the latest patch. The last time I looked, DH's weren't even on the radar. Time to dust mine off then.

The site says "08/01 PATCH UPDATE" so yeah, I think it's up to date since we didn't had any change post that other than the addition of Firework runes which aren't meta changing (It's a weaker pack group wise).

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  • 4 weeks later...

@"Malediktus.9250" said:I think due to class design it will always be either overpowered or underpowered, so not much Anet can do unless they rework the class completly

I disagree. I see why death shroud would be a problem, but we have an elite spec that removed death shroud. Anet just decided to make that elite spec a "heavy support" spec that gives tons of barrier rather than a dps spec. If Anet actually cared about necro in pve, they could have pretty easily made scourge a competitive option without a full on rework.

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@thrag.9740 said:

@"Malediktus.9250" said:I think due to class design it will always be either overpowered or underpowered, so not much Anet can do unless they rework the class completly

I disagree. I see why death shroud would be a problem, but we have an elite spec that removed death shroud. Anet just decided to make that elite spec a "heavy support" spec that gives tons of barrier rather than a dps spec. If Anet actually cared about necro in pve, they could have pretty easily made scourge a competitive option without a full on rework.

I agree, for the next elite I still kinda hope on a REAL (pls don't say the Reaper is one already ...) pure DPS spec. I even hope absolute top benchmarked condi dps (hmm, kinda fits the theme, wouldnt you think, a Necro: best at Condi?), and then hopefully in a form where the Shroud is actually heavily punishing the Necro's health as well as that of his opponents. So it's a high risk high reward mechanic. It's just that Holo, has already made an initial start on this idea, although it's far from heavily punishing, and it's Power based. Also again, I believe thematically it would fit the Necro very well: maybe some sort of a vampire idea?

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@thrag.9740 said:I see why death shroud would be a problemActually, most people ignore that shroud is a very mixed blessing that already balances itself. Yes, it gives an additional health bar, that increaes survivability. This is a major factor in a solo content. In group content however it is balanced by the fact that you can't be healed while in shroud. It offers a shortterm increase in survivability, but at a cost of longterm decrease.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I agree, for the next elite I still kinda hope on a REAL (pls don't say the Reaper is one already ...) pure DPS spec.Reaper is that dps spec (power dps, to be precise, as Anet explanations some time ago made it clear that condi reaper builds were not part of their idea for that spec). It's just that it is simply not very good at its primary job (which is something that should be fixed somehow)

I even hope absolute top benchmarked condi dps...yeah, it's interesting that for necro, condi builds that exist are apparently not part of Anet's plan for the class. Reaper is supposed to be power, not condi. Scourge is supposed to be support, not dps spec. And core... core nowadays is not supposed to be anything, and if any class can get to meta with just a core build, it's also not intended.

Assuming we'll ever get a third espec, this one should probably be condi dps (even if it makes me sad, because i'd really want a proper minionmancer).

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@thrag.9740 said:I see why death shroud would be a problemActually, most people ignore that shroud is a very mixed blessing that already balances itself. Yes, it gives an additional health bar, that increaes survivability. This is a major factor in a
solo
content. In
group
content however it is balanced by the fact that you
can't be healed
while in shroud. It offers a shortterm increase in survivability, but at a cost of longterm decrease.

That's true in the hands of a player who blindly follows their rotation. However, in the hands of a player who lines their rotation up with the specific encounter, I feel it is still a strong tool. Obvious example would be using shroud to soak up damage while skipping greens at vg.

You have to remember, you also don't take health damage while in shroud. This makes its so every core necro and reaper effectively receives free healing whenever something near by dies. If a fight was sufficiently ad heavy, I imagine you could just stay in shroud the whole fight.

I'm not necessarily taking a stance it is or isn't balanced. But I'm pointing out that for an elite spec like scourge, that excuse for Anet's lack of competitive necro balancing is gone.

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@thrag.9740 said:That's true in the hands of a player who blindly follows their rotation. However, in the hands of a player who lines their rotation up with the specific encounter, I feel it is still a strong tool. Obvious example would be using shroud to soak up damage while skipping greens at vg.

There are a few problems with that though.

You actually don't want to use Shroud to tank damage, as Shroud is where the majority of your damage comes from. Taking damage in Shroud decreases it's uptime and dramatically decreases your already low DPS.

@thrag.9740 said:You have to remember, you also don't take health damage while in shroud. This makes its so every core necro and reaper effectively receives free healing whenever something near by dies. If a fight was sufficiently ad heavy, I imagine you could just stay in shroud the whole fight.

You do take 5% Shroud damage per second you are in Shroud though, as well as not gaining Life Force from Deaths around you while in Shroud, so staying in Shroud is not possible.

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Actually necro is at a pretty useful place. Condi scourge is used in lot of places and cms. For example scourge on dhuum cm are great. Scourge on Deimos cm.

Snowcrows meta comps Are for speed clears. Or raid groups that are interested in being elite status doing the tournaments to compete. Any class has viability in multiple raids. However, depending on build will change according to the boss. The reason snowcrows gives raid comps because it gives the best builds onto that 1 boss. But it does not mean you can’t use other variants. Or other classes in replacement.

For example meta on Mathias is mirages, 2 chrono, Druid, banner. However you can still have a condi soulbeast to kill the boss. Or add another healer. Speed clear, for killing the boss is 3-5 mins. But all we want to do is just kill the boss. You can still kill the boss with other variants, it just won’t be as easy or as quick. If that makes sense.

So snowcrows puts down the best way to clear the boss in few mins. But it’s truly not the best comps for people who are not elitists. For example, condi Druid on gorseval is not the best on an av group. Why? Because not everyone hits benchmark, and everyone has to fast cc for a condi Druid to be able to heal you without you killing yourself. However, it doesn’t mean you should not ever use just 1 Druid on gors and make it a condi Druid. It can be used as a goal for everyone.

So it’s great to look at snowcrows comp, but if your pugging the fight, only thing about these things.

  1. is the boss a power or condi fight?
  2. Can I do this fight better with this class?
  3. How will I make this raid easier for everyone in this pug/raid group.

If you think those then it’s fine if you clear it.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@thrag.9740 said:That's true in the hands of a player who blindly follows their rotation. However, in the hands of a player who lines their rotation up with the specific encounter, I feel it is still a strong tool. Obvious example would be using shroud to soak up damage while skipping greens at vg.

There are a few problems with that though.

You actually don't want to use Shroud to tank damage, as Shroud is where the majority of your damage comes from. Taking damage in Shroud decreases it's uptime and dramatically decreases your already low DPS.As long as you gain enough additional life force from nearby deaths (I believe seekers work) to do your standard rotation, shroud soaking some damage up for you is fine, and it can help with your scholar bonus if heals are not on point. During the time that vg goes invuln and you wait for the 3 color guys to spawn you can use axe 2 or greatsword 3 on seekers to generate more life force to help get this extra life force back.

@thrag.9740 said:You have to remember, you also don't take health damage while in shroud. This makes its so every core necro and reaper effectively receives free healing whenever something near by dies. If a fight was sufficiently ad heavy, I imagine you could just stay in shroud the whole fight.

You do take 5% Shroud damage per second you are in Shroud though, as well as not gaining Life Force from Deaths around you while in Shroud, so staying in Shroud is not possible.yup your right my bad. But ad death around you while outside of shroud and damage taken while in shroud do still make shroud allow for some ad death = free healing abilities.

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  • 2 weeks later...

SC is for speed clearing. And even when SC runs, they don't even use that “medioce” comp on their webiste. According to them, it'll be something like full DH, or full mirage so dps ignores mechanics. Define optimal? It just varies from groups to groups.I pug raids a lot, and recently get back with an old friend of mine. He's trying to bring our off-meta static back and the guys who run static with their other squads aren't too keen on it. I find that we don't have any chemistry. Personal dps is fine, but cover for each other is 0. Eveyone is their own man kind of thinking you know.Wiped 7 times on Sloth. I know exactly what's the problem is, so i switched to heal scourge. And people won't stop bitching about. But we one shot everything till Matt. They still bitching at Matt but idc. What's got the job done.

Necro is great not cuz I'm biased that i main it. But it's a very supportive class, in an offensive way. Lots of utilities to bring to the table and before you even sweat about cc, necro got you. But it's "slow", need a ramp up time to build up condis. Condis stack high and wide so that's why it feels slow. But man 8-10 necros in SH is like a big sigh in a good way. Lol. Definitely meme run but smooth, consistent and reliable epi, pushing and bounce off barrier.

I think the class itself is underpowered in PvE cuz most people think spamming everything is how it works and other condi dps class does it better. But in a good hand, the class is enjoyable and super helpful to people.

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You are not Snowcrows. You don't aim for insane speed clears. Having one condi scourge is good at almost every boss to easily clear adds and apply good barriers and strong condi cleanse with 0 healing power. If you cared about the best team comps you would play with only one healer at every single boss except for Sabetha, MO and Matthias, that's where you go with zero. A good player on a non "meta" pick is better than a bad player on a "meta" pick.

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