Weaver sustain? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Weaver sustain?

I am curious...I see often people talking of "weaver sustain" when I think that outside those 2 evasion skills from sword...weaver is not better than even a tempest, anything weaver without sword offers less sustain than even a core ele who doesn't need to drop any utility to do actual damage.

I see popping out this from time to time : "nerf sustain and buff dmg"...but we all know that ele doesn't need dmg buffs , the problem is that ele cannot spec for dmg and sustain like all other classes, so suggesting to nerf those 2 evasion skills on sword weaver while "increasing his dmg" would do nothing but only make people realise that they would be better off running fire/water/arcana d/d ele as the build would offer better dmg/sustain ratio than a weaver without the evasion skills of sword.

Without those evasion skills...there would no point to keep weaver in game...the dual skills are mostly kitten and offer less utility than even overloads, the weaver line offers less than tempest line in terms of flexibility and utility.

What is the point of having damage if you can't access it fast and reliably while having enough sustain to deliver it?

-A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

Comments

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    They said "nerf sustain and buff dmg" because the most popular build we see is Mender Weaver; but if they have really played Weaver they should know the reason it is the most popular is justly because we don't have that much sustain so we need to build with healing power, vitality and the water spec. Put minstrel amulet or mender or anything with armor and healing power and you have a tank near as competent as weaver : daredevil, core war, herald chrono ... The mender FB can also camp a zone and deal great dmg, but it has less "evade" so it's balanced I figure.
    Actually if they do the opposite, buff sustain ""nerf dmg"", elem/weaver will be more balanced and we'll see more diversity.

  • Ha it looks we read the same tread on pvp forum. I see common theme when i hear about weaver opinions outside elementalist community (ex-proleauge dudes, pvp streamers) - sw/d weaver is just boring evade bot.

    It's true. But we don't have choice - we cannot damage stuff like everything else that can mix evasion, blocks and things like that with insta-dead combos. No...somebody felt that we must have evasion skills only in earth/water. Like nobody thought that it will force us to loop riptide combo over and over again cause it needs so much healing power and still we need to spam it. Cause if we stop we will die. IF we try to go offense against player with brain without twist of fate, as soon we switch fire or air we are dead.

    But don't worry devs see our problem. They try so much to buff our damage and to nerf to the ground our sustain. I bet sw/d weaver right before next expansion won't be playable in ranked pvp. And devs will be still clueless why.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mr Godlike.6098 said:
    Ha it looks we read the same tread on pvp forum. I see common theme when i hear about weaver opinions outside elementalist community (ex-proleauge dudes, pvp streamers) - sw/d weaver is just boring evade bot.

    It's true. But we don't have choice - we cannot damage stuff like everything else that can mix evasion, blocks and things like that with insta-dead combos. No...somebody felt that we must have evasion skills only in earth/water. Like nobody thought that it will force us to loop riptide combo over and over again cause it needs so much healing power and still we need to spam it. Cause if we stop we will die. IF we try to go offense against player with brain without twist of fate, as soon we switch fire or air we are dead.

    But don't worry devs see our problem. They try so much to buff our damage and to nerf to the ground our sustain. I bet sw/d weaver right before next expansion won't be playable in ranked pvp. And devs will be still clueless why.

    Tell me about it ...they keep nerfing the sustain of a class that lack basic sustain and must invest in healing power to have that basic sustain..then they add dmg in clutches to hard to aim/hit skills and call it a day...meanwhile a core guardian....I don't want even open the book

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So each time they make healing power more important for ele healing effect the less able the class is to fill that gen roll. Its what has killed the class for being that Jack of All Trades class and made it into the mess that it is today. Just keep that in mind these things effect more then just the weaver.

  • Correction - give everything else then ele menders amulet and it still be able to kill people in 1v1.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah I am sick tired of this BS! I guarantee you they will nerf CD of riptide and earthen vortex once more pretty soon and then increase the dmg somewhere by 200-400 more base pts. The class lacks basic kitten sustain and it's forced to go bloody bunker to function at all but these "devs" will keep hammering on the bunker specs without ever fixing the actual problem.

    I can jump on a guardian and do kitten load of dmg, more than ele while having close to the same sustain of a typical bunker ele ...without investing a single stat point in healing power!

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2019

    After riptide, Tempest Defense, arcane's traits "fixed" etc. Next patch they will remove Frost aura from Water, put a 3sec icd on Cleansing Water, put a 8s cd on Elemental Attunement and Arcane Prowess.
    But They will buff (the dmg, not the cast time) shatterstone again (because devs love that skill) and dragon's tooth. So after Mender weaver we'll see Kamikaze weaver that will rollface before die from retaliation.

    Just look at the patchnotes, it's a mess. They nerfed staff dmg for ZERO reason without counterpart, they nerf step by step sustain/boon access, but +25% dmg of Natural Frenzy (counterpart : now it doesn't hit if target is moving) or 30% pyrovorte, etc. So in a way there is balance, but you're locked in more armor more healing patch after patch. They have no clue how to balance Elem. I know it's not easy to balance without rise again godmod Celestial Elem, but come on ...

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    It's simply a case of people having blinders on and only looking at the "meta" build, not even considering what goes into crafting the build in the first place. For nerfing weaver sustain to work, they'd have to buff damage to an insane degree, so that it's possible to deal equivalent damage to other professions while you only have bunker stats. Imagine how insane the scaling would have to be to deal that much damage with almost no investment in offense whatsoever. This just doesn't work.

    If there were actually offensive options that worked and had decent survivability, most elementalist players would stop using that kitten bunker build. No sustain nerfing needed. If the bunker build becomes slightly broken in the process it doesn't matter anyway. It should be easy enough to nerf some scalings if it eventually comes to that.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with the OP on almost all accounts.
    People complain about weaver sustain without actually looking into the build.
    The current mender sw/d spec has literally 0 offensive traits. Not a single one (unless you count "Evasive Arcana" as an offenssive pick).

    The spec also isnt actually "tanky" as people like to call it. Its sustainy. Which is a difference imo.
    Tanky build can trade hits while taking little damage in return....like the current meta Soulbeast build (or even demolisher Warrior).
    Sustainable builds (like ele) still take a kitten of damage from everything but can heal themselves back up very.

    Why does this matter?
    Cause when you catch a Weaver without his CDs or in a stun....they usually die extremely quickly.
    Also having to switch to water every other attunement swap does absolutely nothing for your dmg.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    I kind of think I know what I am talking about when I write about weaver in PVP. :wink:

    The cleanses kept up with power creep. That would be a huge problem if they decided to reduce condition application. Since I doubt they will put in that much effort, well, they obviously shouldn't - for example - put an internal CD on Woven Stride/let the internal CD affect the "reg when swiftness" or something like that. I never said - quite the opposite, actually - weaver has too much sustain in +1 scenarios and against power builds.

    In terms of general sustain, higher barrier instead of shorter evade frames would be cool, making evade timing valuable again instead of spamming it. But that is very far down the priority of needed changes for the PVP environment indeed. Damage is a whole different topic.

    Againt, only refering to S/D weaver. FA builds, tempest, any +1 role... is clearly lacking of course.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    Weaver itself has 0 sustain. The sword and core specs carry weaver when it goes for sustain. Weaver needs Arcane for boons, Water for heals and condi cleanse, the sword is just the tool used to carry out what these 2 core specs offer. Weaver's line adds nothing except the lower attunement cd and Woven Stride for bunker, but in terms of mastering elements that you can mix them up and all of that, weaver has nothing to address that point in any game mode, the trait line is awful and I believe Tempest's line is superior to Weaver's. It's also a core ele issue, your specs are the attunments you can use, because the trait lines are so non-universal to allow going for a middle ground or atleast 75:25, you either go for sustain with no damage or the opposite.

    Sustain shouldn't be the only feature for a dueling spec. You can strike a shield with a sword for so long that either the shield breaks (weaver) or for the sword to no longer function (other duelers). If the sword is no longer useful, the one with the shield still has nothing to pressure on the sword wielder, at least the sword can face with another sword and duel it out, a shield needs a sword to find its purpose. Firebrand carries the the second option for a shield better, it needs allies to help it, and FB's skills were made for that purpose and they are powerful enough to back up, because FB isn't a duelist, so the point of applying pressure shouldn't be that much of a focus when going for support. Weaver's line and skills on the other hand aren't capable of supporting its allies, and not even itself when going for damage. It relies on external factors, Arcane and Water. Other duelers may have way less condi cleanse than a weaver but they can still win against condi, weaver just dances around conditions but never strikes back, it's still melee vs other classes that can burst you down at melee, or squishy ones that would just maintain their distance. Weaver also lacks cc, or blocks on demand to allow to actually unleash some of its damage potential that is also not on demand when you attune for cc.

    Weaver's sword utilizes the sustain in the core specs, but weaver itself has nothing to offer to allow this sustain to last for long or to apply any pressure. You can't nerf the sustain because the sustain isn't a weaver's feature, it's Arcane and Water, and how fields in this game function. Weaver's line needs a rework, at least Tempest if it's worse mechanic and weapon, the trait line is far way superior to weaver's, it still has boons and auras, what does weaver have? swiftness, the boon anyone can acquire whenever they want to? and what comes with it, cleanse only.

    Buff Elementalist!!! REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    Weaver itself has 0 sustain. The sword and core specs carry weaver when it goes for sustain. Weaver needs Arcane for boons, Water for heals and condi cleanse, the sword is just the tool used to carry out what these 2 core specs offer. Weaver's line adds nothing except the lower attunement cd and Woven Stride for bunker,(...)

    While I agree with your post in general - three sustainy lines :cry: -, weaver does in fact give quite a lot of sustain. S/D weavers in PVP basically pick defensive traits only:

    Master's Fortitude for extra health.
    Bolstered Elements for quick instant stability.
    You mentioned Woven Stride for lots of cleanses (admitted, only in connection with water traitline).

    The first minor giving (some) barrier is also defensive, the second can be used for both defense and offense. And let's not forget Twist of Fate, which is incredible.

    I don't think a big rework is necessary, but buffs are needed indeed. Make vitality baseline, increase barriers, maybe decrease some stance CDs... and then, yes, decrease evade uptimes. But let's face it, we won't get another rework befor mirage's second or third one. :wink:

    Also, totally agree with you, why don't sword, scepter have auras and staff still only one?! :angry: Has been asked for for... forever, basically!

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