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Increasing TTK, Undoing Old Split Changes and Eliminating Skill Splitting


Swagger.1459

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@Israel.7056 said:

@apharma.3741 said:You do realise that stab can only be stripped by CC every 0.75s? I even told you that, here's a link to better inform yourself on that:

So stab being stripped by CC is almost a non issue at the moment, you may lose 1-2 stacks from this, the majority comes from corrupts. The number of corrupts have gone up from necros but so has the boon spam from the "stab carries bads" days you're referring to. So the likelihood of stab being stripped has actually gone down and for the third time now I'm telling you we have a lot more stab than before especially if running double firebrand, it's at a point where CC is almost pointless without mass focused corrupts.

Say what you want but I give reasons for what I'm saying, you can disagree and discuss them and why you think it's not right but at least I do put my reasons. You however haven't posted anything and are falling onto personal attacks. Engy became less potent in December with the change to kinetic stabilisers as it's harder to get and maintain superspeed now it's linked to disabling a person instead of gyro activation. This means less healing from medical dispersion field + rapid regeneration and more reliance on compounding chemicals soothing detonation and purity of purpose. It's still got great cleansing power but FB gives more utility.

What guild are you in out of curiosity?

Well considering you wouldn't answer my question it's a bit strange asking this especially when there's more fruitful things to ask and say.

A better question would be "Which region are you in?" as EU and NA have different styles atm.

It would also probably help to clarify our positions. If you're talking strict GvG format then yes Chrono and Engineer have some use there, I won't deny it and I'll agree with that. If you're talking semi organised to pug groups to zone blobs I stand by my 3 classes only however some veils are in the nice to have category so mesmer gets a look in.

Additionally I'll take the time to say what I mean by FB, Rev and Scourge is that these classes are the only ones NEEDED. You can bring different classes and be somewhat useful depending on what you're fighting but these 3 are universally always useful and always used no matter which way you cut it and will cover nearly everything you could need except for stealth.

I'm talking about closed guild raids on na servers.

Well that's probably our difference of opinion then. I think after the changes to scrapper in December it's not worth running personally but if it gives you an edge in the meta of the region then fair play. There's more room for variation in closed GvG type raids.

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@Israel.7056 said:

@Israel.7056 said:100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

They'd get over it. I spent all that time on my stuff too and I'm already over it who cares take all of it the amulet system would make the game mode better and that's what matters.

Thats quite an assumption.

Which part? Yeah some people would get pretty mad. They might even write a rage quit letter on the forums. But in a week or a month or whatever they'd get over it. Personally I'm already over it it's just stuff and we would still have the skins.

The amulet system could solve several lingering problems at once and it would almost certainly make the game easier to balance in the future. The amulet system has been needed for a very long time imo.

Ah I see. Well in that case, you're probably right.

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@Israel.7056 said:

@Israel.7056 said:100 percent agree with giving us an amulet system you can have my gear I don't care about it.

That’s the problem with this mentally...Some of you are not thinking about what’s good for the majority, and how they would react to being told by Anet that all their gear is now useless in wvw...

Such a change would mean some players wasted hundreds of hours of time grinding to get gear, leveling up crafting, grinding for gold and mats, or gem to gold purchases for mats, spirit shards, laurels, zone currencies, legendary gears... And no, an amulet system, from a mode that was dropped as an esport, wouldn’t be sufficient compensation for their lost time and resources, nor would an amulet system make realm vs realm wvw better.

Edit- And go ahead, add up what players could potentially have wasted then tell me how happy they would really be? And exactly how Anet plans to compensate players under your amulet scenario?

They'd get over it. I spent all that time on my stuff too and I'm already over it who cares take all of it the amulet system would make the game mode better and that's what matters.

That’s a pretty careless way of looking at it...

Thank goodness the devs are way more rational and sensible than that.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:Thank goodness the devs are way more rational and sensible than that.

Says the guy appealing primarily to emotion as the reason not to implement the amulet system in wvw.

Forget that it would be much simpler to balance. Forget that it could help to combat many of the effects of stat inflation one of which could be called "time to kill" (even though that term is horribly imprecise in a game with enormously varied scenarios.) Forget all of its potential advantages.

Forget the amulet system because people might get a sad over their gear even though they would still have all their skins from their gear.

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@Israel.7056 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Thank goodness the devs are way more rational and sensible than that.

Says the guy appealing primarily to emotion as the reason not to implement the amulet system in wvw.

Forget that it would be much simpler to balance. Forget that it could help to combat many of the effects of stat inflation one of which could be called "time to kill" (even though that term is horribly imprecise in a game with enormously varied scenarios.) Forget all of its potential advantages.

Forget the amulet system because people might get a sad over their gear even though they would still have all their skins from their gear.

Yes it’s careless to not consider gear investments made over the past 6 years. Those types of gearing changes have some big negative impacts, and are they types of things you consider implementing before a game launches, not 6 years in... but obviously you didn’t think about any of that.

My comments were the rational way of looking at things, unlike the “they’ll get over it” mentality.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:Yes it’s careless to not consider gear investments made over the past 6 years. Those types of gearing changes have some big negative impacts, and are they types of things you consider implementing before a game launches, not 6 years in... but obviously you didn’t think about any of that.

My comments were the rational way of looking at things, unlike the “they’ll get over it” mentality.

Both are rational just operating on completely different presuppositions.

Personally I don't think the idea of "time to kill" is particularly meaningful in this game to begin with so the conversation surrounding it is rather vague which has lead us to talking more generally about class balance and radical solutions to that problem as a result.

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@Israel.7056 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Yes it’s careless to not consider gear investments made over the past 6 years. Those types of gearing changes have some big negative impacts, and are they types of things you consider implementing before a game launches, not 6 years in... but obviously you didn’t think about any of that.

My comments were the rational way of looking at things, unlike the “they’ll get over it” mentality.

Both are rational just operating on completely different presuppositions.

Personally I don't think the idea of "time to kill" is particularly meaningful in this game to begin with so the conversation surrounding it is rather vague which has lead us to talking more generally about class balance and radical solutions to that problem as a result.

Unfortunately you’re not being rational about the gear topic, sorry.

Just because you don’t find the topic meaningful doesn’t mean conversations equal being vague... I was pretty clear.

All conversations evolve, and certain things can be interconnected or related to a topic... Pretty simple... I bring up topic about ttk and some issues and solutions. Someone else says “no, we need gear changes for the solutions”... When paying attention it’s easy to connect the dots.

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@Israel.7056 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:Thank goodness the devs are way more rational and sensible than that.

Says the guy appealing primarily to emotion as the reason not to implement the amulet system in wvw.

Forget that it would be much simpler to balance. Forget that it could help to combat many of the effects of stat inflation one of which could be called "time to kill" (even though that term is horribly imprecise in a game with enormously varied scenarios.) Forget all of its potential advantages.

Forget the amulet system because people might get a sad over their gear even though they would still have all their skins from their gear.

And as each time I have suggested this, I also meant that 1) You Ascended slots will still apply that bonus and 2) in WvW it would include ALL stat combos, sigils, and runes, I really don't see what the resistance is.

In addition to balancing it better and easier, it would help in encouraging and recruiting new players as it eliminates that cost to be effective. They can just jump in and play, with any builds they want that Metabattle discovers for them.

Seems to me the resistance from vets is more the baby boomer style, "I had to suffer and pay for it, so now so do you!"

This does not help the mode.

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@Israel.7056 said:

I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

What does the Engi and Chrono do?

You want stealth in a 15man GvG you blast a smoke field, this and vault dmg is the DD's role, you generally are not using a Chrono just to give you a veil. The CC is debatable given how much stab a 15 man with 6FB's has, add another Scourge to strip boons and apply dmg is a better option. I admit Chrono used to be wanted for the boon spam, but Anet nuked that from orbit, now it's pretty much drop the Chrono replace with FB no.2. You want superspeed, that is provided usually on a push via Heralds Chaotic Release. Scrapper has some use abusing the rune of altruism bug with mortar kit and traited purity of purpose. Healing kit, Bypass Coating, Defense Field, e.gun all useful but more useful than FB no. two? Or adding another Scourge? I do not see it as an absolute necessity, even if you are looking at optimal 15man setups.

You might take 1 Spellbreaker, you might take 1 DD, you might take 1 healbot Tempest or Scrapper. Outside this the groups are Scourges, FB's, Heralds.

In WvW blobs, bring whatever, bring your Spirits Druid or GS Spirit weapons Guardian. It doesnt matter, but when you start trimming down the groups to 15 those slots become valuable and you dont have room for passengers.

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@Chorazin.4107 said:

I guess it depends on playstyle but I think chrono and engi are mandatory and I like weavers for the damage although it's a high risk class to play for sure.

In my view we are at least at 5/9 mandatory with weavers and spellbreakers as strong supplemental choices depending on how you want to play. Yeah you could run just guard necro and rev but youd lose so much utility and sustain dropping chrono and engi i dont think it would be worth it.

The pacing of the fights is also excellent imo a lot of fights are over in seconds, one mistake can get you wiped fairly easily. I've always thought the sustain train stuff was pretty boring I like the rhythm of the game more now.

Ez stab was a crutch for a lot of guilds for a long time I think that's a big reason why some people miss the old days so much.

What does the Engi and Chrono do?

You want stealth in a 15man GvG you blast a smoke field, this and vault dmg is the DD's role, you generally are not using a Chrono just to give you a veil. The CC is debatable given how much stab a 15 man with 6FB's has, add another Scourge to strip boons and apply dmg is a better option. I admit Chrono used to be wanted for the boon spam, but Anet nuked that from orbit, now it's pretty much drop the Chrono replace with FB no.2. You want superspeed, that is provided usually on a push via Heralds Chaotic Release. Scrapper has some use abusing the rune of altruism bug with mortar kit and traited purity of purpose. Healing kit, Bypass Coating, Defense Field, e.gun all useful but more useful than FB no. two? Or adding another Scourge? I do not see it as an absolute necessity, even if you are looking at optimal 15man setups.

You might take 1 Spellbreaker, you might take 1 DD, you might take 1 healbot Tempest or Scrapper. Outside this the groups are Scourges, FB's, Heralds.

In WvW blobs, bring whatever, bring your Spirits Druid or GS Spirit weapons Guardian. It doesnt matter, but when you start trimming down the groups to 15 those slots become valuable and you dont have room for passengers.

I'll tell you in private. If people really don't know this stuff I'm not about to be the one to tell them.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Chorazin.4107 said:What does the Engi and Chrono do?The scrapper singlehandedly win fights for the commander by keeping everyone that he ignores alive and cleansed so they can outsustain the enemy.

But other than that, not much.

The commander. So in a zerg?

You can pretty much bring anything to a zerg fight as I said in my first post. Bring your Spirit Ranger or Turret Engi, it's a zerg fight, or your meme builds. 1 shot soulbeasts, DJ DE's, whatever floats your boat.

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I haven't read everything here but based on what I have, I'd like to say this:

No matter what happens there will always be complaints. When a change is made, those that are satisfied will be silent and those that are not will make noise. Try to find positive threads on the state of WvW because I assure you they are a rarity.

Too many people want WvW to be as competitive as PvP when it was never intended to be. It is the middle ground between PvE and PvP where you can do one or the other or both in the same area. There are never going to be fights that are perfectly balanced when as many as 80 players can be involved. There are too many variables to consider when there are 9 professions with each having 2 elite specs and how ever many stat, food, rune and sigil combinations there are. Just like there will never be leaderboards for the most successful guilds because it's too difficult to measure how that success is earned.

It is true that balance is poor but this has always been an issue. People need to take the good with the bad and remember that having fun is at the core of it. The harder you try to see WvW as something it's not the harder it'll be to enjoy yourself.

Personally I love poking at zergs by myself or with a couple friends and I have a great deal of fun no matter how often I die (which is usually a lot). When I'm with a zerg, I know that it's important to work with my teammates and to be aware of my surroundings, this intensity is another aspect of the enjoyment WvW brings me. Maybe it's a case of ignorance is bliss but, there haven't been many times in the history of WvW that I have been so unsatisfied with balance that I couldn't enjoy myself. I'm simply too enthralled in the chaos and laughs I'm having and I wish more could experience that.

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Meanwhile...

My cute lil necro...

  • 1735T/2702A
  • 23,012 health

Incoming attack (from stealth)…

  • 13,395
  • 1,298
  • 6,809
  • absorbed
  • 5,119
  • 1,303
  • 1,303

Total damage in a couple seconds...

  • 29,227

Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

These are the base health numbers at 80...

19,21215,92211,645

A player can build for max toughness and max health, at the cost of other stats, just to get killed by 1 player in an opener...

I know the above is a simplified way to look at it, but this area is one of the most glaring disparities about the pvp combat system with this game... And while certain people want damage gutted, my proposals are a more “cleaner” and more sensible way to address the problems.

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@Swagger.1459 said:Meanwhile...

My cute lil necro...

  • 1735T/2702A
  • 23,012 health

Incoming attack (from stealth)…

  • 13,395
  • 1,298
  • 6,809
  • absorbed
  • 5,119
  • 1,303
  • 1,303

Total damage in a couple seconds...

  • 29,227

Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

What was your guardian doing?

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@Israel.7056 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Meanwhile...

My cute lil necro...
  • 1735T/2702A
  • 23,012 health

Incoming attack (from stealth)…
  • 13,395
  • 1,298
  • 6,809
  • absorbed
  • 5,119
  • 1,303
  • 1,303

Total damage in a couple seconds...
  • 29,227

Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

What was your guardian doing?

There-in lies the problem with discussing balance in a vacuum. (And this is only using your comment @Israel.7056 to make a point)

This game was made for group content. Not solo. Can you play solo? Yes.

But WvWvW is about Worlds... not individuals.

And @Swagger.1459 , I am not saying that damage hasn’t ramped up too much and doesn’t need reducing, but some significant perspective of how the group affects damage needs to matter more than what the individual does.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Meanwhile...

My cute lil necro...
  • 1735T/2702A
  • 23,012 health

Incoming attack (from stealth)…
  • 13,395
  • 1,298
  • 6,809
  • absorbed
  • 5,119
  • 1,303
  • 1,303

Total damage in a couple seconds...
  • 29,227

Any wonder why I would create a suggestion thread such as this? How reasonable, and fair, is it for players to deal with these types of damage outputs when 1 opener can consume almost 30k health?

What was your guardian doing?

There-in lies the problem with discussing balance in a vacuum. (And this is only using your comment @Israel.7056 to make a point)

This game was made for group content. Not solo. Can you play solo? Yes.

But
W
v
W
v
W
is about Worlds... not individuals.

And @Swagger.1459 , I am not saying that damage hasn’t ramped up too much and doesn’t need reducing, but some significant perspective of how the group affects damage needs to matter more than what the individual does.

I understand, but the proposals also improve combat scenarios for any group size.

When we look at how large scale unfolds it's basically... "litter the map with 1,000,000,000 aoes to put everyone in a holding pattern. Gauge the scenario. Find your chance, or create opening tactic and commit. 1 side generally gets obliterated in a few seconds, while some lucky survivors scatter away. Respawn. Rinse and repeat."...

These suggestions mean that players will be more likely to engage opponents when their characters are a bit more hearty. This also improves the chances of making a comeback, as opposed to just getting nuked back to spawn in the matter of seconds. This could also mean that melee potentially plays a stronger role in the combat equations…

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Upping the HP would break entire classes. We already have rotational defenses that requires a near perfect attack to down a player. The Soulbeast and Tempest builds running right now can easily take on two heavy hitters. I cannot imagine burst healing builds in the Tempest line... it could take 3+ players to drop that build.

BTW WvW is far more bunker today than at release. It isn't even close. Lay into a bunker build even with a power build in a 1v1 and it is like watching paint dry. In small scale fights healing spam already makes an Ele/Guardian anchor team near unkillable outside of more numbers with boon strip. Even if a player downs a bunker group, they rez so fast it doesn't matter. The problem isn't spike damage ATM but the extremes we play in. A player has to be all bunker, all damage or play an essentially OP build in the meta.

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I think before we talk about upping TTK in general it's important to discuss the damage ethos in this games wvw as a whole. For example, I think a positional required melee range single target attack should be the highest damage skill in the game, with a max range multi target attack with no positional requirement that allows movement whilst casting being the lowest damage extreme.Once all that is sorted out you have to look at the traits/defense/offense available. Sort all THAT out so that the classes/builds with least defense do better damage than more defensive built of their class, then you can look at damage in general.
And you do have to remember that no matter how much you personally hate getting one shot on your almost glass zergling whatever, SOMEONE has to be able to kill the firebrand :/

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@Straegen.2938 said:Upping the HP would break entire classes. We already have rotational defenses that requires a near perfect attack to down a player. The Soulbeast and Tempest builds running right now can easily take on two heavy hitters. I cannot imagine burst healing builds in the Tempest line... it could take 3+ players to drop that build.

BTW WvW is far more bunker today than at release. It isn't even close. Lay into a bunker build even with a power build in a 1v1 and it is like watching paint dry. In small scale fights healing spam already makes an Ele/Guardian anchor team near unkillable outside of more numbers with boon strip. Even if a player downs a bunker group, they rez so fast it doesn't matter. The problem isn't spike damage ATM but the extremes we play in. A player has to be all bunker, all damage or play an essentially OP build in the meta.

That's easy to deal with. We could double or triple the effects of vitality as long as we add in dimishing returns on all Healing. There are 2 methods I would propose for accomplishing this:

1.) Healing reduces maximum HP. Maximum HP recovers over time when out of battle. The reduction is not 1:1, and is more forgiving with self healing than it is for group healing. This method hurts Healing Power builds, but at the same time, dying later is better than dying now, so Healing is still important (especially if we get upwards of 50k or more hp thanks to doubled or tripled vitality).

2.) Healing puts a stacking debuff that reduces healing received. Split into Self and Outside Healing so teammates don't screw your healing over, and vice versa. Would be based on the % of your max health you've healed while in combat, but is not 1:1. For example, if you used a heal that restored 10% of your max health, you would gain 10 stacks of the debuff, which would reduce SELF healing by some percentage. If a guardian healed you for 10%, that would apply 10 stacks of the alternate debuff, reducing healing from outside sources. The self debuff would affect Life Force by the same percentage, so no necro gods.

A bonus effect of boosting the value of vitality is that necro is buffed without making them sustain gods, by really making them the true attrition style of having a huge amount of hit points and lumbering at you.

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