Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged] - Page 16 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condi Mirage Feedback [Merged]

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  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭

    @rank eleven monk.9502 said:
    What I find interesting is, mirages, reapers maybe even scourges are under-represented at the top level in ranked compared to lower ranks, while for example revenants are more common. But yeah that's mostly because of different skill caps probably.

    These builds put together are pretty good at snowballing, which can be easily done when opponents do have a bad setup or 1-2 less experienced players. This is quite frequent in gold division, but rarely happen at plat2+, which is probably why these classes are under represented there.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UfoCoffee.2084 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Hahahaha what? You must be joking? Thief can't 1v1 or hold a point and gets 1 shot.

    Mesmer is the complete opposite. Very funny. I barely see thieves in my games. Unless they're a feeding deadeye or rarely a slightly annoying d/p mosquito.

    +1

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Man U mesmers alway bring up other classes when mesmers are being called out. Mesmers as a whole may have high skill cap but also lowest to be effective. The only op thing about thief is DE due to traits in its trait line like stealth on dodge. Every mesmer spec is far easier than any class to be effective especially Condi Mirage due to its bloated toolkit and its game breaking mechanics. The reason thief’s ten times the nurf mirage threads vs even DE tells a story also why there’s so many new mesmer players jumping on the easy mode class, u gonna tell me core/dd are easy mode? Try fighting a soulbeast,guard or holo on DD or core and see how u do compared to ur mesmer. I’ve geared mesmer for pvp and wvw and it is not comparable to thief in any way other than mesmers being given most of the thief’s tools lol most players actually run after my first Condi shatter burst where as on thief usually I’m the one resetting to re engage lol

    Burnfall isn't a mesmer.

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    So necros now win against thief :)
    As for mirage, 2xecto, steal every boon from BD, condi cleanse on demand, higher evade uptime, more mobility on combat.
    Guess you're "being horribly outskilled".

    Condi cleanse in demand =DDD Thief can cleanse only 3 conditions once every 30 seconds because you can't use Shadowstep since it a) cleanses condi on second part so due to perma 16+stacks of Confusion you can't use it b) Is thieves only hope of surviving the fight and even that is questionable since Illusionary Ambush which has god kitten 20 sec CD.
    Mirage has numerous ways to Interrupt plasma and it's been proven in other thread that Mirage has just slightly lower evade uptime than S/D Thief so good luck getting it in the first place.

    Yes, Necro can win vs Thief much much more easily than can Thief win vs Mirage since anyone who's not dumb will shut down IR by Wurm or Spectral walk, so since Necro (both Reaper and Scourge) has more hard CCs than Thief has stunbreaks the possibility of Thief getting insta-gibbed after some time in fight with Necro is so kitten high, unlike when fighting Mirage where everything is completely rng due to ridiculously low CDs on detarget skills.

    If you get hit by 16+stacks of confusion with a thief, you're playing poorly. F2 is usually done after axe 3 which is has a big dodge me sign on it.
    Numerous ways to interrupt?! Lucky proc from chaos storm and F3 (clones running to you) unless you consume plasma at melee range, which is, again, poor play.
    As for dealing with condis - signet, shadowstep, sd 2.

    I think necros will disagree on that one.

    F2 is not the main source of Confusion in the most broken and overused builds nor even its main dmg nor is it actually even required to be used at all since you benefit so much more from keeping the clones for cover and for Distort, how can you defend Mirage without even knowing this.

    I like how you ignored the fact which I stated that Thief can't use Shadwostep to clense and just slapped it in your post anyway because out of arguments I guess, completely the same goes for IS as it removes only one kitten condi out of cca 4 that are permanently on you and Confusion is NOT the priorities one in the order of condi removal, not to mention this skill once again damages you before cleansing the one condi.

    Also, you forget that F3 interrupts on each clone so almost every time you get interrupted twice by this skill due to the good ol' Daze bug that prevents you from moving, changing current direction or even dodging, which is by the way caused by the spam of it which is of course case of F3 clones.
    Next you "forget" about interrupt of Torch 5 and in case of Scepter build the Pistol 5.

    Necros are welcome to disagree if they like, but I play Necro in Rank too and Thieves are absolutely nowhere near the great threat you are making them out to be, to me.

    Care to tell me the main source of confusion?!
    For shadowstep argument I told you, if you get hit by axe 3 f2 jokes' on you, but I'll wait till you tell me enlight me about the main source of confusion.
    No one, I mean, no one gets hit by torch 5. And again, no sane thief consumes ecto on melee range.
    Sc/P is a meme build much easier to deal than chaos staff.

    As for necros lets let them speak.

    The degenerate

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Take exhaustion off elusive mind and put it on mirage cloak itself causing exhaustion on stunbreak and Condi removal if ulusive mind is traited Their now it would be comparable to unhindered combatant trait. Naming shadowstels etc as stunbreak to defend mirage cloak is ridiculous because it’s a SKILL not a built in mechanic and has a decent CD, which mirage has other similar skills so. Better yet make mesmers blocks all 1 1/4 seconds like the one block thief has lol.

    Don't know if I understood you right. You're saying MC by default breaks stun and causes exhaustion if doing so? If it is indeed that what you meant, what about we take exhaustion off UC and attached it by default to dd dodge?
    I don't know how many times me and other mesmers said this but here it goes again, we don't want mc to allow dodge while stunned, and exhaustion doesn't work on mesmer, it does on dd because you got a ton of endurance gain skills that allow you to bypass exhaustion.

    The degenerate

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Take exhaustion off elusive mind and put it on mirage cloak itself causing exhaustion on stunbreak and Condi removal if ulusive mind is traited Their now it would be comparable to unhindered combatant trait. Naming shadowstels etc as stunbreak to defend mirage cloak is ridiculous because it’s a SKILL not a built in mechanic and has a decent CD, which mirage has other similar skills so. Better yet make mesmers blocks all 1 1/4 seconds like the one block thief has lol.

    Don't know if I understood you right. You're saying MC by default breaks stun and causes exhaustion if doing so? If it is indeed that what you meant, what about we take exhaustion off UC and attached it by default to dd dodge?
    I don't know how many times me and other mesmers said this but here it goes again, we don't want mc to allow dodge while stunned, and exhaustion doesn't work on mesmer, it does on dd because you got a ton of endurance gain skills that allow you to bypass exhaustion.

    No that again is not the same at all wow haha. Sure put exuastion on vault as well as already being on UC, as long as exhaustion is added to MC if stun or condition is removed via UM than also add it to ambush attacks. Than to make up for longer and more blocks than thief remove all invisibility from mesmer so it can’t do everything all in one class lol

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    Anyway I’m not arguing,don’t need to the 10 times more mesmer is broken threads vs any other class does it for me. And without considering DE one broken perma stealth cheese build core/dd are not even close to the level that mesmer,soulbeast and holo are over performing so comparing any mesmer spec to thief and not clarifying DE is in question will make ur thief is as op as mesmer comparisons humorous and hard to take ur responses serious. Lol only mesmer mains would call core/DD op. When’s last time u saw a DD is op
    Post? Thief’s been hit hard patch after patch not little inconsequential nerfs like mesmers received, even read earlier a mesmer stating the class has had more nerfs than thief,say what? Lol cmon it’s the games god mode,I run Condi in wvw and half people run shortly into the fight, I play way more thief but down people with Condi Mirage and power mesmer far easier than a class I’ve actually put time into,that says somthing. And yeah soulbeast is kinda the same so is holo and DE with right build but doesn’t detract from how over performing mesmer is. Other than cheese invisibility burst DE doesnt do much,unlike the loaded kit of mirage

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Anyway I’m not arguing,don’t need to the 10 times more mesmer is broken threads vs any other class does it for me. And without considering DE one broken perma stealth cheese build core/dd are not even close to the level that mesmer,soulbeast and holo are over performing so comparing any mesmer spec to thief and not clarifying DE is in question will make ur thief is as op as mesmer comparisons humorous and hard to take ur responses serious. Lol only mesmer mains would call core/DD op

    By all means quote me where I said thief is op.

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    remove all invisibility from mesmer so it can’t do everything all in one class lol

    Lul you're talking to someone who wants stealth removed from game, so removing stealth from mesmer is a really nice first step, and would put a smile on my face.

    The degenerate

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:
    It is extremely oppressive, and dominating ranked play. "You don't see nothing but Mirage on the leaderboard," yeah, yeah, but you DO see an abundance of them within every match (3-4 in my experience, on average), and those players have an inequitable impact on match outcome for the amount of effort required to produce said outcome. I'm not the greatest player in the game (not even close), in fact, I suppose I'd be right at average (Gold 2), but I have played MMOs regularly for around 16 years and I've never seen a class so completely transcend gameplay rules within the context of its game setting. It needs serious nerfing.

    Well said. It's kind of like if Goku showed up to fight Tekken characters or something. lol

    And then the Goku mains explained to everyone else how it was just a matter of learning to play. Or worse, played the victim (as I've seen some take to doing in these forums; re: mirage being the cyberbullied class :/ ).

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shadow Order.7258 said:

    No it shouldn't. It's a waste of that person's time. Just like most feedback is. They aren't going to do anything with mirage. The class is broken at its base level. Since they just reworked the cancer that is clone spam and mirage is designed to be slippery don't expect a change.

    I'm guess I'm more referencing my explanation in that thread of this:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    3. I can see that you don't pay much attention to feedback that doesn't offer balance suggestions, so I'll give my balance suggestions here and now, this way no one is confused as to quite exactly where I stand concerning "What should happen to Mirage." To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output. I believe a better balance could be achieved through changing how Infinite Horizon and Illusionary Ambush work. First let's talk Infinite Horizon. Most players would say that the fundamental problem is Mirage Cloak itself, allowing the Mirage to essentially dodge while still attacking. I think Mirage Cloak and Ambush skills are fine. I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved, while allowing those clones to land Ambush skills and lay down the pressure of potential Shatters. There is no other class/build in the game now or ever, that could play 100% defensively like this, while still laying down enough attrition AND burst pressure, to be able to threaten even builds that are designed to Bunker vs. conditions. That's a lot of damage reward for complete full defensive play. Other classes/builds most choose "Is it the right time to land offensive pressure? Or should I stay defensive, lay off the attack and make sure I survive?" The Mirage can do both simultaneously. Although this is obnoxious in design, I feel it is balanced up until the point where a player selects Infinite Horizon. At that point, Infinite Horizon turns an already obnoxious mechanical design into something that is too powerful not only mechanically, but also attribute tied with its no cool-down clone ambush hard damage. If it were up to me, Infinite Horizon would receive a 10 second cool-down. This would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently punish attackers with clone Ambush damage, each an every time the attacker chooses to go offensive instead of defensive "remember, other classes can't do both in the same way a Mirage can." With a 10 second cool down, it would mitigate the ambush damage output and force the Mirage to choose more wisely when he should or should not burn a Mirage Cloak. Now Illusionary Ambush, this skill is just too powerful in design. So not only is it an instant cast 1200 range teleport that works as either immediately shifting kiting into shatter position or for mobility disengage when using enemy targeting wisely, but it also breaks enemy target, functions as half a stun break positionally, creates Mirage Cloak, and then procs more Ambush skills. That's a lot of utility for a 20 second cool-down skill. Illusionary Ambush should be reduced to 900 range or less, and its cool-down should be increased to at least 30 seconds, maybe more. this would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently on demand choose whether he wants to be away from you or on top of your head. This would force the Mirage to more wisely choose if it was important to use Illusionary Ambush or not, instead of allowing him to so freely spam the long range 20 second cool-down skill. But that about sums up my balance suggestions. After Mirage is properly nerfed "no cop-out reworks", then I want to see Boonbeasts & Holosmiths get hit.

    That IH suggestion is awful, and here's why, by slapping a 10cd icd on IH, you don't chose to go offensive or defensive like you said, you simply lose even more control on clones because, you know , dodge on mirage is done not only offensively it's done defensively too, so I dodge to evade a burst and my clones all do an ambush, so not only I burnt a dodge for an evade I burnt an ambush on the wrong time too.
    Even Countless' IH nerf is better than this and his suggestion sucked a lot.

    Regarding IA, you want to mess with the range and cd. You don't want a nerf you want a delete. I mean up the cd? Sure. Reduce the range? Sure. But both?

    How about ambush effects being available immediately following evade frames from dodge (in addition to removing the ability to evade while CC'd completely)? Like, you still get evade frames (as do your clones), but it allows more counter-play and fixes the issue of ambush occurring during evade frames. I'm not certain this would fix the problem, but it is something I've considered.

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief? Compared to condi Mirage? You have got to be joking...

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    @rank eleven monk.9502 said:
    Get to top100 and you will see less mirages

    Sorry, there are too many Mirages blocking the way... :p

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shadow Order.7258 said:

    No it shouldn't. It's a waste of that person's time. Just like most feedback is. They aren't going to do anything with mirage. The class is broken at its base level. Since they just reworked the cancer that is clone spam and mirage is designed to be slippery don't expect a change.

    I'm guess I'm more referencing my explanation in that thread of this:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    3. I can see that you don't pay much attention to feedback that doesn't offer balance suggestions, so I'll give my balance suggestions here and now, this way no one is confused as to quite exactly where I stand concerning "What should happen to Mirage." To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output. I believe a better balance could be achieved through changing how Infinite Horizon and Illusionary Ambush work. First let's talk Infinite Horizon. Most players would say that the fundamental problem is Mirage Cloak itself, allowing the Mirage to essentially dodge while still attacking. I think Mirage Cloak and Ambush skills are fine. I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved, while allowing those clones to land Ambush skills and lay down the pressure of potential Shatters. There is no other class/build in the game now or ever, that could play 100% defensively like this, while still laying down enough attrition AND burst pressure, to be able to threaten even builds that are designed to Bunker vs. conditions. That's a lot of damage reward for complete full defensive play. Other classes/builds most choose "Is it the right time to land offensive pressure? Or should I stay defensive, lay off the attack and make sure I survive?" The Mirage can do both simultaneously. Although this is obnoxious in design, I feel it is balanced up until the point where a player selects Infinite Horizon. At that point, Infinite Horizon turns an already obnoxious mechanical design into something that is too powerful not only mechanically, but also attribute tied with its no cool-down clone ambush hard damage. If it were up to me, Infinite Horizon would receive a 10 second cool-down. This would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently punish attackers with clone Ambush damage, each an every time the attacker chooses to go offensive instead of defensive "remember, other classes can't do both in the same way a Mirage can." With a 10 second cool down, it would mitigate the ambush damage output and force the Mirage to choose more wisely when he should or should not burn a Mirage Cloak. Now Illusionary Ambush, this skill is just too powerful in design. So not only is it an instant cast 1200 range teleport that works as either immediately shifting kiting into shatter position or for mobility disengage when using enemy targeting wisely, but it also breaks enemy target, functions as half a stun break positionally, creates Mirage Cloak, and then procs more Ambush skills. That's a lot of utility for a 20 second cool-down skill. Illusionary Ambush should be reduced to 900 range or less, and its cool-down should be increased to at least 30 seconds, maybe more. this would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently on demand choose whether he wants to be away from you or on top of your head. This would force the Mirage to more wisely choose if it was important to use Illusionary Ambush or not, instead of allowing him to so freely spam the long range 20 second cool-down skill. But that about sums up my balance suggestions. After Mirage is properly nerfed "no cop-out reworks", then I want to see Boonbeasts & Holosmiths get hit.

    That IH suggestion is awful, and here's why, by slapping a 10cd icd on IH, you don't chose to go offensive or defensive like you said, you simply lose even more control on clones because, you know , dodge on mirage is done not only offensively it's done defensively too, so I dodge to evade a burst and my clones all do an ambush, so not only I burnt a dodge for an evade I burnt an ambush on the wrong time too.
    Even Countless' IH nerf is better than this and his suggestion sucked a lot.

    Regarding IA, you want to mess with the range and cd. You don't want a nerf you want a delete. I mean up the cd? Sure. Reduce the range? Sure. But both?

    How about ambush effects being available immediately following evade frames from dodge (in addition to removing the ability to evade while CC'd completely)? Like, you still get evade frames (as do your clones), but it allows more counter-play and fixes the issue of ambush occurring during evade frames. I'm not certain this would fix the problem, but it is something I've considered.

    Fine by me, although the cast time of ambushes needed to get changed, since those take into account the mc time.

    The degenerate

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Thief does not counter condi Mirage. Power? Maybe, but certainly not condi.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    We can talk about their ability to spam power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.
    We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, heals and condi cleanse they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.
    We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to perma-stab.
    We can talk about their ability to perma swift and leap great when things get too rough.
    We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

    But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that holo is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, holo is balanced."

    Hah, don't strain yourself trying to be ironic. Perma swiftness TOO POWERFUL. Better watch out for those 2 evades and uhh... no teleports.

    Yes, holo is powerful, and it should be nerfed (I say this as an engi main). But it's not the biggest problem in the room either.

    Who would have thought perma swiftness allows to escape better than a profession without any swiftness access! Oh you coveniently forgot perma-vigor...and leaps.
    No, the biggest problem is sb.

    But I find rather curious that you playing quoting you "conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage" complain about a profession who is countered by yours.
    So if mirage is op and countered by holo, that makes holo...?!

    1. Most classes have access to perma-swiftness, except guardian or necro. This is generally a moot point in most competitive matches.
    2. Again, what you're talking about is irrelevant to the discussion, because this thread is focused on condi mirage. I hope the thread title isn't unclear.
    3. Don't be obtuse about what I wrote. I said my build was designed SPECIFICALLY to counter condi mirage, and even then, it only does enough to scare them off. I can still be murdered by them if I don't play it just right, and it only works as a counter in 1v1.

    Please do tell me how can I get perma-swiftness on mirage.
    Oh but I know it is about condi mirage like a dozen other threads on pvp forums, just doing a comparison between condi mirage and holo.
    Conv holo counters mirage, no need to design a build specifically, and if you scare them off, you won. Like every other profession on game, you don't play right you lose.

    It doesn't really counter it if it's a 50/50 match up depending on skill level. Condi Mirage has the match up won in the long run if u have common sense. If you see hard light arena up, Guess what? Don't pressure them with condi with axe/torch. Use Staff from a Range and Auto Attack them till they leave out of hard light arena or it goes on CD once that's out of the picture feel free to bait them to use Shield 5 and then go balls to the wall deep into them and get the kill.

    THE ONLY time i seen Mirage lose to sword/shield holo are usually the monkey that SPAM EVERYTHING when Shield 5 blocks everything/Hard light arena clears all the condi burst away after 2-3 pulse. However If you can't seem to understand how the spec works and what the weakness is then you should sit down MAKE a holo with that build and play with it for a few hours to get a better understanding.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    Almost every mesmer op thread the discussion quickly turns to other classes and how other aspects of other classes should have nerfs if mesmer was to receive any and this one is no different. Wasn’t long before thief was brought up suggesting more nerfs to an already in a lot of cases underperforming class due to constant nerfs because why? If u aren’t implying DD is op than why jump to nerfing DD dodge with exhaustion? As if as a whole their in such a close spot as far as performance that if mirage got toned done so should DD? It’s always well if arena net does this to mesmer or mirage than this and this should be nerfed on this class like mirages kit isn’t already more loaded than most others.if that were to happen then not much would change as mesmers kit would remain more loaded than others,it is possible to tone mirage down without toning down similar aspects of other classes because as a whole the class still performs different than each other. Than after it’s usually why aren’t people complaining about soulbeast etc? They are it’s just right now mirage is the worst offender so stands to reason why their more singled out than others lol DE has the most linear and cheesiest playstyle build that clearly is over performing and does it inmo the most annoying way thru perma stealth and if mirage is annoying more people than DE perma stealth is than there’s a real issue with mirage lol

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m actually with u on stealth removal

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Shadow Order.7258 said:

    No it shouldn't. It's a waste of that person's time. Just like most feedback is. They aren't going to do anything with mirage. The class is broken at its base level. Since they just reworked the cancer that is clone spam and mirage is designed to be slippery don't expect a change.

    I'm guess I'm more referencing my explanation in that thread of this:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    3. I can see that you don't pay much attention to feedback that doesn't offer balance suggestions, so I'll give my balance suggestions here and now, this way no one is confused as to quite exactly where I stand concerning "What should happen to Mirage." To start I want to make clear that I'm not so concerned with its defensive measures or mobility. I understand that Mirage was designed for that flavor. What I am concerned with, is that if it possess S-Tier defensive measures, mobility & utility, it should not also possess top damage capabilities. No class/build should have everything. In my opinion, Mirage simply needs a cut to its damage output. I believe a better balance could be achieved through changing how Infinite Horizon and Illusionary Ambush work. First let's talk Infinite Horizon. Most players would say that the fundamental problem is Mirage Cloak itself, allowing the Mirage to essentially dodge while still attacking. I think Mirage Cloak and Ambush skills are fine. I think the problem occurs with Infinite Horizon. It too strongly rewards ultra defensive gameplay, by allowing the Mirage to play 100% defensively, while allowing its clones to play defensively so they can't even be cleaved, while allowing those clones to land Ambush skills and lay down the pressure of potential Shatters. There is no other class/build in the game now or ever, that could play 100% defensively like this, while still laying down enough attrition AND burst pressure, to be able to threaten even builds that are designed to Bunker vs. conditions. That's a lot of damage reward for complete full defensive play. Other classes/builds most choose "Is it the right time to land offensive pressure? Or should I stay defensive, lay off the attack and make sure I survive?" The Mirage can do both simultaneously. Although this is obnoxious in design, I feel it is balanced up until the point where a player selects Infinite Horizon. At that point, Infinite Horizon turns an already obnoxious mechanical design into something that is too powerful not only mechanically, but also attribute tied with its no cool-down clone ambush hard damage. If it were up to me, Infinite Horizon would receive a 10 second cool-down. This would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently punish attackers with clone Ambush damage, each an every time the attacker chooses to go offensive instead of defensive "remember, other classes can't do both in the same way a Mirage can." With a 10 second cool down, it would mitigate the ambush damage output and force the Mirage to choose more wisely when he should or should not burn a Mirage Cloak. Now Illusionary Ambush, this skill is just too powerful in design. So not only is it an instant cast 1200 range teleport that works as either immediately shifting kiting into shatter position or for mobility disengage when using enemy targeting wisely, but it also breaks enemy target, functions as half a stun break positionally, creates Mirage Cloak, and then procs more Ambush skills. That's a lot of utility for a 20 second cool-down skill. Illusionary Ambush should be reduced to 900 range or less, and its cool-down should be increased to at least 30 seconds, maybe more. this would reduce the Mirage's ability to so freely & conveniently on demand choose whether he wants to be away from you or on top of your head. This would force the Mirage to more wisely choose if it was important to use Illusionary Ambush or not, instead of allowing him to so freely spam the long range 20 second cool-down skill. But that about sums up my balance suggestions. After Mirage is properly nerfed "no cop-out reworks", then I want to see Boonbeasts & Holosmiths get hit.

    That IH suggestion is awful, and here's why, by slapping a 10cd icd on IH, you don't chose to go offensive or defensive like you said, you simply lose even more control on clones because, you know , dodge on mirage is done not only offensively it's done defensively too, so I dodge to evade a burst and my clones all do an ambush, so not only I burnt a dodge for an evade I burnt an ambush on the wrong time too.
    Even Countless' IH nerf is better than this and his suggestion sucked a lot.

    Regarding IA, you want to mess with the range and cd. You don't want a nerf you want a delete. I mean up the cd? Sure. Reduce the range? Sure. But both?

    How about ambush effects being available immediately following evade frames from dodge (in addition to removing the ability to evade while CC'd completely)? Like, you still get evade frames (as do your clones), but it allows more counter-play and fixes the issue of ambush occurring during evade frames. I'm not certain this would fix the problem, but it is something I've considered.

    Fine by me, although the cast time of ambushes needed to get changed, since those take into account the mc time.

    Do you think it would help?

  • crewthief.8649crewthief.8649 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    You may not want Mirage nerfed into the ground, but it certainly needs to be. Every other class has suffered it (except warrior). Basically the amount of nerfs that need to come its way, should make every single solitary Mirage player stare at their Mirage on the character select screen and think to themselves "What's the point of playing this class anymore, they're destroyed"

    That's where it's needs to be because most every other class has had the same treatment.

    Are you referring to core Warrior, or Spell Breaker? Because Spell Breaker has most certainly suffered from the (many) nerfs it has received since PoF release.

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    • We can talk about their ability to spam conditions and power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.
    • We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, and blocks they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.
    • We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to mirage cloak, making punishing them for screwing up worthless.
    • We can talk about stealth and detargets, and how it makes combat with them unpleasant.
    • We can talk about their ability to teleport great distances and skip out when things get too rough.
    • We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

    But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that condi mirage is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, condi mirage is balanced."

    PS: I play a conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage, and it can still beat me if I screw up. I almost never get a kill because they run away first

    Pointing finger at Mesmer again??
    Making exceptions?

    Thief, warrior, ranger not included?

    36e7vz.jpg

    Neither Thief nor Warrior belong in the same balance conversation as condi Mirage. It's not 2016-2017 anymore, @Burnfall.9573

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2019

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    • We can talk about their ability to spam conditions and power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.
    • We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, and blocks they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.
    • We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to mirage cloak, making punishing them for screwing up worthless.
    • We can talk about stealth and detargets, and how it makes combat with them unpleasant.
    • We can talk about their ability to teleport great distances and skip out when things get too rough.
    • We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

    But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that condi mirage is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, condi mirage is balanced."

    PS: I play a conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage, and it can still beat me if I screw up. I almost never get a kill because they run away first

    Pointing finger at Mesmer again??
    Making exceptions?

    Thief, warrior, ranger not included?

    36e7vz.jpg

    Excellent whataboutism.

    This is the bases of every mesmers defence. If mesmers op what about insert class here. If this is nerfed on mesmer than this similar skill on insert class should be nerfed as well as if their kit isn’t bloated and there class is on such a level playing field nothing can be toned down on them without Toning similar skill on other classes as well. Every threads the same

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    • We can talk about their ability to spam conditions and power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.
    • We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, and blocks they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.
    • We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to mirage cloak, making punishing them for screwing up worthless.
    • We can talk about stealth and detargets, and how it makes combat with them unpleasant.
    • We can talk about their ability to teleport great distances and skip out when things get too rough.
    • We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

    But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that condi mirage is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, condi mirage is balanced."

    PS: I play a conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage, and it can still beat me if I screw up. I almost never get a kill because they run away first

    Pointing finger at Mesmer again??
    Making exceptions?

    Thief, warrior, ranger not included?

    36e7vz.jpg

    Excellent whataboutism.

    This is the bases of every mesmers defence. If mesmers op what about insert class here. If this is nerfed on mesmer than this similar skill on insert class should be nerfed as well as if their kit isn’t bloated and there class is on such a level playing field nothing can be toned down on them without Toni g similar skill on other classes as well. Ever threads the same

    So I've started to notice (not every, but the vast majority). I think my stock response will be "so you agree that Mirage is OP, then?" since that is essentially what they are saying (while trying to deflect away because they are afraid of any nerf).

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    Mesmer has received more nerfs than thief? I hope u felt awkward typing that lol thief not only has been hit so often patch threads trigger ptsd(no disrespect to sufferers obviously) ontop they were significant unlike most of the inconsequential nerfs mesmers faced. Is it cuz they share tele’s or invisibility that ur defence is to always deflect to thief?thief is so far below mesmer as a whole in performance,kit bloat and ease of use in pvp their not even close to comparable yet many of u make urselves hard to take serious by forum members trying to compare them. When’s last time Uve seen anything close to a DD/core theif is op thread, most are asking for small buffs,oh wait in nerf mirage threads lol. U kno ur class is an issue when its nerf threads dwarf that of a spec like DE who’s sole burst is using a mechanic like perma stealth lol soulbeast and holo’s cant even compare to the sheer number of nerf mesmer threads and their crazy over performing as well

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    > @Daishi.6027 said:

    After I stun a mirage I just wait for them to waste their evades while I save my cooldowns so that they are open and can't use their ambush.

    Vs more clever mirages I initiate an attack and just stow to bait them.

    If it's a poor position I'll take the time to actively play around the illusions to reduce any of the mirage's momentum and starve them of offensive options.

    You may not like that they can evade while stunned, but I think of it as a good opportunity to remind them of the futility of their struggles >=3

    Whoa there! You mean to say you adjust your actions to actively play around a game mechanic?! Heresy! Everyone knows that you have to immediately press the damage buttons after landing a CC - that's the only way to win!

    Actually, a lot of times you do.

    Eg. Magnet on Engineer. This skill's main purpose is to set up a couple of otherwise hard to land skills and ensure maximum damage - Pry Bar, Blowtorch, Rocket Kick, Blunderbuss(melee range). The actual window for CC damage after a magnet pull is pretty short - maybe 0.5s? - so you only get 1 shot at it. If a mirage can dodge after being pulled, you've wasted your CC and your damage. You can't wait a second assuming they'll dodge, because you don't know if they will or not (maybe they're bad. maybe they're out of dodges, maybe they're saving it?) so you have to try for the damage anyway. If you wait to see whether they'll dodge, you've missed your damage window. This is really frustrating because magnet is on a much longer cooldown than Mirage's dodges.

    Eg. Most CC's on Warrior. You want to Bull's Charge or Shield Bash to set up a long Hundred Blades. You're just never going to get any damage out of Hundred Blades without a CC to lock the opponent in place first. If they can just dodge AFTER you hit them and avoid your HB, you've now wasted 2 skills and they didn't have to make the skillful play of seeing the incoming CC and reacting to it. (There is a lot of skill required here! You need to see the incoming attack, decide whether it's Shield Bash, Bull's Charge, or Headbutt, blind/counter-cc if it's Bash or Headbutt, otherwise block or Dodge. Always dodge if they've got signet of might active or something like that. All in a span of ~0.5s! ). Instead, you get to see the incoming CC, take it to the face, then get even more time to start your (longer) dodge and avoid the follow-up damage.

    I could keep going for many of the CCs in the game - most of them required to set up damage, basically all of them on longer cooldown than dodge.

    If this is how you view it you are setting up wrong and in a very linear way of thinking. This is part of the problem with the PvP community.

    You do not blow all your CC when you know your opponent has stability, right? Like wise with the builds you mentioned that rely on those setups, you do not open on a mirage with CC when he has full dodges, unless you are hard reading how they intend to dodge.

    If you understand the class well enough and their options, you can understand how to out play it. In addition many mirage use their evade’s ambush for offense or to cover skills. In light of that it’s not hard to bait or force out all their evades before you go for a kill set up.

    Dodge or not it doesn't freaking Matter when they have an f4 ability and a kitten load of ways to get Vigor to continue dodging so easily. The Class is beyond busted and annoying as hell to play.

    Ways to get Vigor/endurance :

    1:Shatter(2 sec of vigor give or take per shatter on F ability)
    2:False Oasis
    3:Arcane Thievery
    4:Critical Infusion
    5:Rune of Adventure

    just those 5 basic ways makes it close to impossible to know when a mirage has no more "endurance" and EVEN if they did run out you still need to watch out for their F4 which gives them distortion and along with Mirage mirror. The whole spec is really just god kitten awful for this game and every "nerf" they have done to the class has literally done almost noting at all hence why every possible spec u can come up with on mirage is broken in some way.

    Every trait they have just makes the entire spec so god kitten powerful.

    It's far from impossible unless you aren't paying attention, and your basis for "busted" would make DD impossible to hit which is far from the case.

    If you're now using Distortion as the basis for being over the top you are clearly not paying attention in a fight and you are not managing your opponents illusions at all. This is why the ebb and flow of combat is important and why nothing exists in a vacuum. If the enemy mirage pushed out evades, be it for attacks or if I pressured any out, and they are distorting in response, after summoning phantasms; they are clearly stalling. Let them, the next time their distortion will be up is in 50 seconds and they are going to be starving for resources. At this point they need to actively kill me, or run away, (and they aren't getting that kill unless I get lazy) because even after their phantasms and endurance refresh, they are going to be running on fumes and will die so long as I can fight back. Which in PvP; where conquest is the basis for balance, If they run it means I get the point. Also a small tip, most mirage's will waste their mobility cooldowns (jaunts, blink, or endurance if using sword[usually power]) to get back to the point meaning they have less to get away with. EVEN IF they get distortion after coming back, and they use it for another full 3 illusion shatter, I'm still winning the point and they are making little to no work on me.

    Pretending like there is nothing you can do is admitting defeat and what causes so many people to cry about it. However, in reality once you get past that curve it's literally second nature to track and tell what your opponent is trying to do.

    As for your vigor and endurance:
    1. 2. You are correct about false oasis and nomads endurance. Mirages gain 1.5 per shatter (6 seconds across all 4 shatters) and 5 on heal at a 25 second cooldown. Granting a total of 11 seconds across 5 skills, most of which are base 25 second cooldowns and up.
    3. Arcane Thievery DOES NOT give vigor unless you directly steal it.
    4. Critical infusion is only consistent for power builds that are not over performing, and for condi mirage which is the problematic build right now most do not have the precision to proc this consistently. Also we are talking about 3 seconds of vigor on a 10 second cooldown.
    5. Not everyone is using adventure runes, but even if they are they get 0.5 of a dodge back on heal which really isn't so bad.

    Granted you need to take into account double energy, which is a full dodge across two weapon swaps, however if condi is the issue and we're complaining about an accumulative 11 seconds of vigor and 1.5 dodge between energy sigils and adventure runes (something everyone has access to) then I think people need to re-assess their basis for broken vs the amount of vigor and dodge other specs have access to.

    And sorry, no; a 50 second cooldown that eats up all your offensive resources is not what tips the scales.

    It's survivability is not over the top, and has a ton of counter play if you know what you are doing. It has been nerfed several times in the offense department with A-net clearly stating that it wants to last long in fights (read the patch notes). Compared to other defensive builds this is not over performing, in fact it's less so in some cases. People just don't seem to understand the context or how their enemy moves or the reason behind, make general sweeping claims like "Broken, SS tier, godly OP!" when what they need to do is over come their own ineptitude. The survivability it does have may be lightly shaved or increased a little, but it isn't going anywhere, and if it did we can expect massive changes to other builds.

    Condi Mirage's over performance is output, and nothing else. Anything that has to do with survivability is the mismanagement of any player fighting it.
    I know this well, because I enjoy killing mirages (or making them run).

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:
    It is extremely oppressive, and dominating ranked play. "You don't see nothing but Mirage on the leaderboard," yeah, yeah, but you DO see an abundance of them within every match (3-4 in my experience, on average), and those players have an inequitable impact on match outcome for the amount of effort required to produce said outcome. I'm not the greatest player in the game (not even close), in fact, I suppose I'd be right at average (Gold 2), but I have played MMOs regularly for around 16 years and I've never seen a class so completely transcend gameplay rules within the context of its game setting. It needs serious nerfing.

    Well said. It's kind of like if Goku showed up to fight Tekken characters or something. lol

    Holosmiths literately have the Kamehameha Wave tho.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Id say its extremely weird for someone to get upset by that but this is the pvp subsection so I guess I shouldn't expect anything less.

    It wasn't you who got temporarily banned from forums a couple of weeks ago or last week?

    I'm too blunt sometimes and a bit of an kitten.. Im also Australian and jokes can be taken the wrong way.
    Ontop of that, even though I speak for myself and from my own perspective, some people get defensive for no reason or aggressive and my kitten Australian personality kicks in and decides to stir the pot for a laugh... I rightfully get banned frequently for this and Im sure most devs could confirm that for you.

    I've sadly been around a while but only a few users here such as Crab can see it for what it is, a bit of fun..

    In this case, @mortrialus.3062 usually doesn't respond in such a manner which is why I was shocked and left my last comment, for all I know he was in a previous heated engagement with someone.

    I'm personally very bitter about the Portal nerf in particular because I feel it was the opposite direction the balance team should have taken mesmers. Mesmers of all stripes should be winning games through their unique one of a kind team utility and ability to control enemies not through just slamming people with brick walls of condi so post Portal nerf I paid very close attention to how I saw other people using it and the answer was I haven't seen others using it at all post nerf.

    Also a big reason why Mesmers seemed to explode in deadliness last balance patch is because with Portal no longer a good choice freed up Mirages. Blink is still mandatory, and now Mirage can pick two of the following three: Illusionary Ambush, Signet of Midnight, or Arcane Thievery, becoming far more individually deadly in the process.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Man U mesmers alway bring up other classes when mesmers are being called out. Mesmers as a whole may have high skill cap but also lowest to be effective. The only op thing about thief is DE due to traits in its trait line like stealth on dodge. Every mesmer spec is far easier than any class to be effective especially Condi Mirage due to its bloated toolkit and its game breaking mechanics. The reason thief’s ten times the nurf mirage threads vs even DE tells a story also why there’s so many new mesmer players jumping on the easy mode class, u gonna tell me core/dd are easy mode? Try fighting a soulbeast,guard or holo on DD or core and see how u do compared to ur mesmer. I’ve geared mesmer for pvp and wvw and it is not comparable to thief in any way other than mesmers being given most of the thief’s tools lol most players actually run after my first Condi shatter burst where as on thief usually I’m the one resetting to re engage lol

    Burnfall isn't a mesmer.

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    So necros now win against thief :)
    As for mirage, 2xecto, steal every boon from BD, condi cleanse on demand, higher evade uptime, more mobility on combat.
    Guess you're "being horribly outskilled".

    Condi cleanse in demand =DDD Thief can cleanse only 3 conditions once every 30 seconds because you can't use Shadowstep since it a) cleanses condi on second part so due to perma 16+stacks of Confusion you can't use it b) Is thieves only hope of surviving the fight and even that is questionable since Illusionary Ambush which has god kitten 20 sec CD.
    Mirage has numerous ways to Interrupt plasma and it's been proven in other thread that Mirage has just slightly lower evade uptime than S/D Thief so good luck getting it in the first place.

    Yes, Necro can win vs Thief much much more easily than can Thief win vs Mirage since anyone who's not dumb will shut down IR by Wurm or Spectral walk, so since Necro (both Reaper and Scourge) has more hard CCs than Thief has stunbreaks the possibility of Thief getting insta-gibbed after some time in fight with Necro is so kitten high, unlike when fighting Mirage where everything is completely rng due to ridiculously low CDs on detarget skills.

    If you get hit by 16+stacks of confusion with a thief, you're playing poorly. F2 is usually done after axe 3 which is has a big dodge me sign on it.
    Numerous ways to interrupt?! Lucky proc from chaos storm and F3 (clones running to you) unless you consume plasma at melee range, which is, again, poor play.
    As for dealing with condis - signet, shadowstep, sd 2.

    I think necros will disagree on that one.

    F2 is not the main source of Confusion in the most broken and overused builds nor even its main dmg nor is it actually even required to be used at all since you benefit so much more from keeping the clones for cover and for Distort, how can you defend Mirage without even knowing this.

    I like how you ignored the fact which I stated that Thief can't use Shadwostep to clense and just slapped it in your post anyway because out of arguments I guess, completely the same goes for IS as it removes only one kitten condi out of cca 4 that are permanently on you and Confusion is NOT the priorities one in the order of condi removal, not to mention this skill once again damages you before cleansing the one condi.

    Also, you forget that F3 interrupts on each clone so almost every time you get interrupted twice by this skill due to the good ol' Daze bug that prevents you from moving, changing current direction or even dodging, which is by the way caused by the spam of it which is of course case of F3 clones.
    Next you "forget" about interrupt of Torch 5 and in case of Scepter build the Pistol 5.

    Necros are welcome to disagree if they like, but I play Necro in Rank too and Thieves are absolutely nowhere near the great threat you are making them out to be, to me.

    Care to tell me the main source of confusion?!

    I would honestly like to know this as well..
    With the meta Chaos/dueling/mirage build people are running axe/torch and staff. Why is f2 not used?

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Man U mesmers alway bring up other classes when mesmers are being called out. Mesmers as a whole may have high skill cap but also lowest to be effective. The only op thing about thief is DE due to traits in its trait line like stealth on dodge. Every mesmer spec is far easier than any class to be effective especially Condi Mirage due to its bloated toolkit and its game breaking mechanics. The reason thief’s ten times the nurf mirage threads vs even DE tells a story also why there’s so many new mesmer players jumping on the easy mode class, u gonna tell me core/dd are easy mode? Try fighting a soulbeast,guard or holo on DD or core and see how u do compared to ur mesmer. I’ve geared mesmer for pvp and wvw and it is not comparable to thief in any way other than mesmers being given most of the thief’s tools lol most players actually run after my first Condi shatter burst where as on thief usually I’m the one resetting to re engage lol

    Burnfall isn't a mesmer.

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    So necros now win against thief :)
    As for mirage, 2xecto, steal every boon from BD, condi cleanse on demand, higher evade uptime, more mobility on combat.
    Guess you're "being horribly outskilled".

    Condi cleanse in demand =DDD Thief can cleanse only 3 conditions once every 30 seconds because you can't use Shadowstep since it a) cleanses condi on second part so due to perma 16+stacks of Confusion you can't use it b) Is thieves only hope of surviving the fight and even that is questionable since Illusionary Ambush which has god kitten 20 sec CD.
    Mirage has numerous ways to Interrupt plasma and it's been proven in other thread that Mirage has just slightly lower evade uptime than S/D Thief so good luck getting it in the first place.

    Yes, Necro can win vs Thief much much more easily than can Thief win vs Mirage since anyone who's not dumb will shut down IR by Wurm or Spectral walk, so since Necro (both Reaper and Scourge) has more hard CCs than Thief has stunbreaks the possibility of Thief getting insta-gibbed after some time in fight with Necro is so kitten high, unlike when fighting Mirage where everything is completely rng due to ridiculously low CDs on detarget skills.

    If you get hit by 16+stacks of confusion with a thief, you're playing poorly. F2 is usually done after axe 3 which is has a big dodge me sign on it.
    Numerous ways to interrupt?! Lucky proc from chaos storm and F3 (clones running to you) unless you consume plasma at melee range, which is, again, poor play.
    As for dealing with condis - signet, shadowstep, sd 2.

    I think necros will disagree on that one.

    F2 is not the main source of Confusion in the most broken and overused builds nor even its main dmg nor is it actually even required to be used at all since you benefit so much more from keeping the clones for cover and for Distort, how can you defend Mirage without even knowing this.

    I like how you ignored the fact which I stated that Thief can't use Shadwostep to clense and just slapped it in your post anyway because out of arguments I guess, completely the same goes for IS as it removes only one kitten condi out of cca 4 that are permanently on you and Confusion is NOT the priorities one in the order of condi removal, not to mention this skill once again damages you before cleansing the one condi.

    Also, you forget that F3 interrupts on each clone so almost every time you get interrupted twice by this skill due to the good ol' Daze bug that prevents you from moving, changing current direction or even dodging, which is by the way caused by the spam of it which is of course case of F3 clones.
    Next you "forget" about interrupt of Torch 5 and in case of Scepter build the Pistol 5.

    Necros are welcome to disagree if they like, but I play Necro in Rank too and Thieves are absolutely nowhere near the great threat you are making them out to be, to me.

    Care to tell me the main source of confusion?!

    I would honestly like to know this as well..
    With the meta Chaos/dueling/mirage build people are running axe/torch and staff. Why is f2 not used?

    Yeah without Illusions line, and assuming Deceptive Evasion traited, there aren't many significant sources of confusion (not counting negligable stuff like axe 2 whirl finisher in ethereal field, etc). It's only axe 3 which is well telegraphed, F2 which untraited is pretty mediocre, and iMage's burst which is highly telegraphed on a long cooldown. The latter 2 only give a few stacks anyway.

    It's mostly torment that gets spammed around for axe/staff chaos build. Confusion is more prevalent in Scepter + Illusions for traited F2, but this has less sustain.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Id say its extremely weird for someone to get upset by that but this is the pvp subsection so I guess I shouldn't expect anything less.

    It wasn't you who got temporarily banned from forums a couple of weeks ago or last week?

    I'm too blunt sometimes and a bit of an kitten.. Im also Australian and jokes can be taken the wrong way.
    Ontop of that, even though I speak for myself and from my own perspective, some people get defensive for no reason or aggressive and my kitten Australian personality kicks in and decides to stir the pot for a laugh... I rightfully get banned frequently for this and Im sure most devs could confirm that for you.

    I've sadly been around a while but only a few users here such as Crab can see it for what it is, a bit of fun..

    In this case, @mortrialus.3062 usually doesn't respond in such a manner which is why I was shocked and left my last comment, for all I know he was in a previous heated engagement with someone.

    I'm personally very bitter about the Portal nerf in particular because I feel it was the opposite direction the balance team should have taken mesmers. Mesmers of all stripes should be winning games through their unique one of a kind team utility and ability to control enemies not through just slamming people with brick walls of condi so post Portal nerf I paid very close attention to how I saw other people using it and the answer was I haven't seen others using it at all post nerf.

    Also a big reason why Mesmers seemed to explode in deadliness last balance patch is because with Portal no longer a good choice freed up Mirages. Blink is still mandatory, and now Mirage can pick two of the following three: Illusionary Ambush, Signet of Midnight, or Arcane Thievery, becoming far more individually deadly in the process.

    Ohai they merged the mesmer threads lol
    Yea Mesmers are in a really good spot and portal was unique, I never used it for rotating though which is why I think they nerfed it..

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • DigiQWill.6378DigiQWill.6378 Member ✭✭✭

    Rework the GM traits to something a bit more acceptable, and have Desert Distortion be a GM of its own to prevent perma IH spam.Oh and a few more adjustements to EM to make it viable, and make Dune Cloak an Mid tier trait instead of a GM.

  • I like how this thread is at 720 replies now and people are still defending mirage. We must all be wrong.

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Addiction.9685 said:
    I like how this thread is at 720 replies now and people are still defending mirage. We must all be wrong.

    You're misconstruing 'defending' with 'wanting proper and reasonable nerfs'

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Man U mesmers alway bring up other classes when mesmers are being called out. Mesmers as a whole may have high skill cap but also lowest to be effective. The only op thing about thief is DE due to traits in its trait line like stealth on dodge. Every mesmer spec is far easier than any class to be effective especially Condi Mirage due to its bloated toolkit and its game breaking mechanics. The reason thief’s ten times the nurf mirage threads vs even DE tells a story also why there’s so many new mesmer players jumping on the easy mode class, u gonna tell me core/dd are easy mode? Try fighting a soulbeast,guard or holo on DD or core and see how u do compared to ur mesmer. I’ve geared mesmer for pvp and wvw and it is not comparable to thief in any way other than mesmers being given most of the thief’s tools lol most players actually run after my first Condi shatter burst where as on thief usually I’m the one resetting to re engage lol

    Burnfall isn't a mesmer.

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jasper Defthand.3018 said:
    I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

    Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

    Mesmer

    Thief has never been "flavor" in the way you are trying to suggest except for short while after release, it's been meta for being useful to the Team not for being obnoxious overpowered ****, nobody and I mean nobody ever had any issues deleting Thief player from the face of this Earth should the thief attempt to 1v1 unless being horribly outskilled by its player.

    Poor thieves...
    And their self-proclaimed skillfullness.
    Some professions are countered by thieves, one of which is... surprise surprise... The one that gives name to this thread.

    Some professions are countered by Thieves =D OK, Rev and... Nothing else. It was to Mirage before its extreme builds it has now, not to mention your argument is extremely invalid to my response to that poster.

    So necros now win against thief :)
    As for mirage, 2xecto, steal every boon from BD, condi cleanse on demand, higher evade uptime, more mobility on combat.
    Guess you're "being horribly outskilled".

    Condi cleanse in demand =DDD Thief can cleanse only 3 conditions once every 30 seconds because you can't use Shadowstep since it a) cleanses condi on second part so due to perma 16+stacks of Confusion you can't use it b) Is thieves only hope of surviving the fight and even that is questionable since Illusionary Ambush which has god kitten 20 sec CD.
    Mirage has numerous ways to Interrupt plasma and it's been proven in other thread that Mirage has just slightly lower evade uptime than S/D Thief so good luck getting it in the first place.

    Yes, Necro can win vs Thief much much more easily than can Thief win vs Mirage since anyone who's not dumb will shut down IR by Wurm or Spectral walk, so since Necro (both Reaper and Scourge) has more hard CCs than Thief has stunbreaks the possibility of Thief getting insta-gibbed after some time in fight with Necro is so kitten high, unlike when fighting Mirage where everything is completely rng due to ridiculously low CDs on detarget skills.

    If you get hit by 16+stacks of confusion with a thief, you're playing poorly. F2 is usually done after axe 3 which is has a big dodge me sign on it.
    Numerous ways to interrupt?! Lucky proc from chaos storm and F3 (clones running to you) unless you consume plasma at melee range, which is, again, poor play.
    As for dealing with condis - signet, shadowstep, sd 2.

    I think necros will disagree on that one.

    F2 is not the main source of Confusion in the most broken and overused builds nor even its main dmg nor is it actually even required to be used at all since you benefit so much more from keeping the clones for cover and for Distort, how can you defend Mirage without even knowing this.

    I like how you ignored the fact which I stated that Thief can't use Shadwostep to clense and just slapped it in your post anyway because out of arguments I guess, completely the same goes for IS as it removes only one kitten condi out of cca 4 that are permanently on you and Confusion is NOT the priorities one in the order of condi removal, not to mention this skill once again damages you before cleansing the one condi.

    Also, you forget that F3 interrupts on each clone so almost every time you get interrupted twice by this skill due to the good ol' Daze bug that prevents you from moving, changing current direction or even dodging, which is by the way caused by the spam of it which is of course case of F3 clones.
    Next you "forget" about interrupt of Torch 5 and in case of Scepter build the Pistol 5.

    Necros are welcome to disagree if they like, but I play Necro in Rank too and Thieves are absolutely nowhere near the great threat you are making them out to be, to me.

    Care to tell me the main source of confusion?!

    I would honestly like to know this as well..
    With the meta Chaos/dueling/mirage build people are running axe/torch and staff. Why is f2 not used?

    Shows you how much people that want mirage nerfed know about the profession. Too bad ANet still listen to these people instead of mesmer mains proposals.

    The degenerate

  • @Xae.7204 said:
    Either ban them from PvP or have them count as two people on a team. Mirage is a fundamentally broken concept that can not be fixed.

    There has been years spent tinkering with a broken formula and it has effectively killed sPvP.

    The hardest part of being a developer is being able to admit when you've designed yourself into a corner you can't get out of. Its time to realize that has happened with Mirage.

    You speak truth.
    Though I think they could do more then just number fixes.
    Let's try:
    Swapping base hp with ele.
    Clone max is only 2 in pvp instead of 3. Don't change shatters or how phantasms work
    IH given a five second CD.
    You can still be "slippery" while lowering clone spam and damage.

    Also on a side not. All pvp changes should automatically transfer to wvw. Make it so Anet and I'll buy some gems =D

  • Xae.7204Xae.7204 Member ✭✭

    @Shadow Order.7258 said:

    @Xae.7204 said:
    Either ban them from PvP or have them count as two people on a team. Mirage is a fundamentally broken concept that can not be fixed.

    There has been years spent tinkering with a broken formula and it has effectively killed sPvP.

    The hardest part of being a developer is being able to admit when you've designed yourself into a corner you can't get out of. Its time to realize that has happened with Mirage.

    You speak truth.
    Though I think they could do more then just number fixes.
    Let's try:
    Swapping base hp with ele.
    Clone max is only 2 in pvp instead of 3. Don't change shatters or how phantasms work
    IH given a five second CD.
    You can still be "slippery" while lowering clone spam and damage.

    Also on a side not. All pvp changes should automatically transfer to wvw. Make it so Anet and I'll buy some gems =D

    When you really stop and think about Mirage it becomes obvious.

    Why aren't we seeing years of "concerned" feedback about Scrappers, or Heralds or Dragon Hunters. Or any of the other 8 classes and 24 specs in the game other than Mesmers?

    Mesmer obviously holds a special place in Arena Nets heart. Its been the Meta spec in almost every game mode since HoT. If any other class had been turbo-S tier this long it would have been dumpstered years ago.

    Its time to dumpster mesmers and let the other 8 classes back into ArenaNets mindspace again. Remember the other classes? Wouldn't it be nice if some of them got some love and attention instead of multiple years of twinkle-toed dancing around nerfing Mesmers?

  • @Xae.7204 said:

    @Shadow Order.7258 said:

    @Xae.7204 said:
    Either ban them from PvP or have them count as two people on a team. Mirage is a fundamentally broken concept that can not be fixed.

    There has been years spent tinkering with a broken formula and it has effectively killed sPvP.

    The hardest part of being a developer is being able to admit when you've designed yourself into a corner you can't get out of. Its time to realize that has happened with Mirage.

    You speak truth.
    Though I think they could do more then just number fixes.
    Let's try:
    Swapping base hp with ele.
    Clone max is only 2 in pvp instead of 3. Don't change shatters or how phantasms work
    IH given a five second CD.
    You can still be "slippery" while lowering clone spam and damage.

    Also on a side not. All pvp changes should automatically transfer to wvw. Make it so Anet and I'll buy some gems =D

    When you really stop and think about Mirage it becomes obvious.

    Why aren't we seeing years of "concerned" feedback about Scrappers, or Heralds or Dragon Hunters. Or any of the other 8 classes and 24 specs in the game other than Mesmers?

    Mesmer obviously holds a special place in Arena Nets heart. Its been the Meta spec in almost every game mode since HoT. If any other class had been turbo-S tier this long it would have been dumpstered years ago.

    Its time to dumpster mesmers and let the other 8 classes back into ArenaNets mindspace again. Remember the other classes? Wouldn't it be nice if some of them got some love and attention instead of multiple years of twinkle-toed dancing around nerfing Mesmers?

    I agree. On my mesmer alt I keep the title "Golden Child" on for Anet's blatant favoritism.

  • Deadlyy.6527Deadlyy.6527 Member ✭✭
    edited February 10, 2019

    16 pages of mirage goodness

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If u guys are not convinced by all the logic mirage mains arguments than there is no hope for u. Git gut and l2p. Stop moving and using skills, than u easy win

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I remember the only and only time I stepped on Mirage and went into WvW, I found someone, mashed the buttons, and they ended up with 8 stacks of torment and 8 stacks of confusion on them (along with something else). I thought to myself, you gotta be kidding me. Of all conditions, that's what someone gets hit with. The defense? Stand there and do nothing? Clear them? Sure, but look how easy they were to apply. Nobody should even attempt to be defending this type of spec.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    I remember the only and only time I stepped on Mirage and went into WvW, I found someone, mashed the buttons, and they ended up with 8 stacks of torment and 8 stacks of confusion on them (along with something else). I thought to myself, you gotta be kidding me. Of all conditions, that's what someone gets hit with. The defense? Stand there and do nothing? Clear them? Sure, but look how easy they were to apply. Nobody should even attempt to be defending this type of spec.

    I agree but apparently from mirage mains view it is fine and it’s other specs that are over performing, we just need to learn to play against mirages lol

  • @LazySummer.2568 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    I love how people seem to forget that most classes have a way to trivialize being stunned. Even as thief I'm just like "lol jk byeeeeee" -ports way-

    being able to cast a skill or do anything thats not an explicit stunbreaker in this game is honestly just poor design and should all be removed, especially when they do damage. This includes all instant cast/teleport skills such as mesmer's shatters/jaunt/staff 2/iAmbush, thief's steal, holo's particle accelerator toolbelt skill, guardian's smite conditions, ele's electric discharge...etc, but what do i know when we are talking about a game with a stealth system that's both spammable and has no real counters as well as having some skills that are allowed to be cast backwards while running away or go through walls/z-axis when majority of skills arent allowed to do so.

    The counter to stealth, is the revealed debuff. Which a number of classes have access to, by the way.

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:
    The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.
    Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

    Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

    IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.
    If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

    We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

    You do for one you do for all-
    how about this.
    Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.
    This means no more steal while CC'd
    No more controlling your pet while CC'd
    No more switching attunements while CC'd
    No more inflitrators return while CC'd
    Etc.
    Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

    I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

    Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.
    Still has less evasion than a thief.
    and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.
    What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.
    Lets just nerf them all
    If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.
    No need to be biased right?

    Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

    You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

    Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

    No other class can evade while CC'd. Every other class in the game is forced to burn a utility skill in order to avoid the burst following a CC, all except Mirage. I'm not sure what you're driving at here, but there really is NO defense for dodging while CC'd. It needs nerfed, and I suspect it will be. Considering smarmy attitudes on the forum and in-game, I hope it gets gutted, to be completely honest.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:
    The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.
    Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

    Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

    IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.
    If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

    We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

    You do for one you do for all-
    how about this.
    Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.
    This means no more steal while CC'd
    No more controlling your pet while CC'd
    No more switching attunements while CC'd
    No more inflitrators return while CC'd
    Etc.
    Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

    I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

    Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.
    Still has less evasion than a thief.
    and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.
    What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.
    Lets just nerf them all
    If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.
    No need to be biased right?

    Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

    You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

    Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

    No other class can evade while CC'd. Every other class in the game is forced to burn a utility skill in order to avoid the burst following a CC, all except Mirage. I'm not sure what you're driving at here, but there really is NO defense for dodging while CC'd. It needs nerfed, and I suspect it will be. Considering smarmy attitudes on the forum and in-game, I hope it gets gutted, to be completely honest.

    Just a sidenote: Not only do most classes have to use a utility skill, most also have to dodge afterwards to still avoid the burst since few stun breaks do have an evade or block attached to it.

    I agree it needs to be changed, such a huge defense should not be baseline, but I somehow guess - if at all - they will just add exhaustion to every mirage mirror... :lol:

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:
    The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.
    Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

    Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

    IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.
    If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

    We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

    You do for one you do for all-
    how about this.
    Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.
    This means no more steal while CC'd
    No more controlling your pet while CC'd
    No more switching attunements while CC'd
    No more inflitrators return while CC'd
    Etc.
    Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

    I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

    Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.
    Still has less evasion than a thief.
    and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.
    What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.
    Lets just nerf them all
    If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.
    No need to be biased right?

    Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

    You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

    Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

    No other class can evade while CC'd.

    True

    Every other class in the game is forced to burn a utility skill in order to avoid the burst following a CC, all except Mirage.

    Half true as the examples were listed earlier before this thread was merged.

    I'm not sure what you're driving at here,

    It was posted. You failing to read or understand it is totally on you. But to reiterate
    " anything not labeled as a stun break can no longer be used when your character is stunned, launched, knockdowned, etc."

    Then I asked why every class shouldn't be that way. Not that hard to understand honestly....

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:
    The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.
    Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

    Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

    IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.
    If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

    We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

    You do for one you do for all-
    how about this.
    Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.
    This means no more steal while CC'd
    No more controlling your pet while CC'd
    No more switching attunements while CC'd
    No more inflitrators return while CC'd
    Etc.
    Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

    I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

    Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.
    Still has less evasion than a thief.
    and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.
    What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.
    Lets just nerf them all
    If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.
    No need to be biased right?

    Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

    You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

    Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

    No other class can evade while CC'd.

    True

    Every other class in the game is forced to burn a utility skill in order to avoid the burst following a CC, all except Mirage.

    Half true as the examples were listed earlier before this thread was merged.

    I'm not sure what you're driving at here,

    It was posted. You failing to read or understand it is totally on you. But to reiterate
    " anything not labeled as a stun break can no longer be used when your character is stunned, launched, knockdowned, etc."

    Then I asked why every class shouldn't be that way. Not that hard to understand honestly....

    I suppose insulting me is a valid tactic... To address your point, why are you deflecting? I thought this thread was about condi Mirage and its ridiculous level of sustain and condi application? Are you of the belief that evasion while cc'd is somehow at the same level as other profession's access to certain skills while cc'd? Because if so, I disagree completely. And I'm not alone (not by a long shot).

  • @Daishi.6027 said:
    The ONLY problem with Condi mirage is the output.

    If the defensive options were that much of a big deal, power which has better access to vigor would be over performing. It is NOT there are already so few condi mirages in top slots, Power by comparison is virtually non existent outside of memes and jokes. If there was any validity to the claim that the defensive options were as overpowered as people point out and how much it carries players; then we would see it stand on par with it's condi counterpart.

    I think people are trying to find something to latch onto simply because they don't know how to fight against it, and need something to blame.

    You're right, it's probably everyone else that's wrong.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:
    The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.
    Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

    Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

    IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.
    If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

    We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

    You do for one you do for all-
    how about this.
    Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.
    This means no more steal while CC'd
    No more controlling your pet while CC'd
    No more switching attunements while CC'd
    No more inflitrators return while CC'd
    Etc.
    Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

    I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

    Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.
    Still has less evasion than a thief.
    and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.
    What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.
    Lets just nerf them all
    If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.
    No need to be biased right?

    Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

    You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

    Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

    No other class can evade while CC'd.

    True

    Every other class in the game is forced to burn a utility skill in order to avoid the burst following a CC, all except Mirage.

    Half true as the examples were listed earlier before this thread was merged.

    I'm not sure what you're driving at here,

    It was posted. You failing to read or understand it is totally on you. But to reiterate
    " anything not labeled as a stun break can no longer be used when your character is stunned, launched, knockdowned, etc."

    Then I asked why every class shouldn't be that way. Not that hard to understand honestly....

    I suppose insulting me is a valid tactic... >To address your point, why are you deflecting?

    How is asking any skill not labeled as a stun break to not be useable deflecting?
    That's literally what everyone wants correct?
    Not using or doing an action while stunned that isn't a stun break. Explain to me how that would be a bad change?

    I thought this thread was about condi Mirage and its ridiculous level of sustain and condi application?

    Still is. As the title suggests. But that didn't answer my question.
    I guess refusing to answet the question and accusing people of deflecting is the new thing to do?

    Are you of the belief that evasion while cc'd is somehow at the same level as other profession's access to certain skills while cc'd?

    Any skill that trivializes a well landed CC. That isnt labeled as a stun break is unhealthy.
    Explain to me why it isn't.
    (That includes Mirage cloak. If you didn't catch on..)

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • @Solori.6025 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @crewthief.8649 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @kappa.2036 said:
    The ability to dodge crucial attacks at the right time has always distinguished good players from bad players.
    Dodging is - in fact- a real invulnerability if used at the right time, and is accessible to all classes. In this regard, there are specific effects that prevent dodge, like immobilize, fear and other control effects: all these factors have always balanced the fight in guild wars 2.

    Unfortunately, the mirage ability called "mirage cloak" eludes everything I mentioned before. In fact, this ability allows the mirage not only to not worry about being knocked on the ground or immobilized, but also to use his skills while evading attacks.

    IF you mean while evading- is able to attack this is true.
    If you mean while stunned- able to attack- this is false.

    We need mechanics that promote good and healthy gameplay, and THIS should be against your combat philosophy, Anet...

    You do for one you do for all-
    how about this.
    Any skill not labeled as a stunbreak is unable to be used while controlled by stun, knockdown, knockback, pull, push, float, launch, or daze.
    This means no more steal while CC'd
    No more controlling your pet while CC'd
    No more switching attunements while CC'd
    No more inflitrators return while CC'd
    Etc.
    Because this would be against the combat philosophy anet never shared.

    I'll take it. Being able to use zerker stance on warrior while stunned is and was always kinda stupid anyways. Warror should be using it offensively but here's the catch I don't know if this logic can apply to any other class. Maybe just by "nerfing" the evade spam and make it easier to punish by making it 80% of what it was will be enough.

    Honestly you don't evade any more or less than other classes.
    Still has less evasion than a thief.
    and almost the lowest vigor uptime thanks to all the nerfs.
    What's honestly the biggest grip for people has been the ability to dodge while CC'd and I don't blame them, but other classes have effects while CC'd as well.
    Lets just nerf them all
    If that is really the issue, then nerf the issue for everyone.
    No need to be biased right?

    Also, you're saying you can't shatter while you're stunned? Honest question.

    You can shatter while stunned. You have been able to do that since launch IIRC.

    Which is why I can't figure out what the "combat philosophy" that people keep harping about is, when every class has something they can use while CC'd.

    No other class can evade while CC'd.

    True

    Every other class in the game is forced to burn a utility skill in order to avoid the burst following a CC, all except Mirage.

    Half true as the examples were listed earlier before this thread was merged.

    I'm not sure what you're driving at here,

    It was posted. You failing to read or understand it is totally on you. But to reiterate
    " anything not labeled as a stun break can no longer be used when your character is stunned, launched, knockdowned, etc."

    Then I asked why every class shouldn't be that way. Not that hard to understand honestly....

    I suppose insulting me is a valid tactic... >To address your point, why are you deflecting?

    How is asking any skill not labeled as a stun break to not be useable deflecting?
    That's literally what everyone wants correct?
    Not using or doing an action while stunned that isn't a stun break. Explain to me how that would be a bad change?

    I thought this thread was about condi Mirage and its ridiculous level of sustain and condi application?

    Still is. As the title suggests. But that didn't answer my question.
    I guess refusing to answet the question and accusing people of deflecting is the new thing to do?

    Are you of the belief that evasion while cc'd is somehow at the same level as other profession's access to certain skills while cc'd?

    Any skill that trivializes a well landed CC. That isnt labeled as a stun break is unhealthy.
    Explain to me why it isn't.
    (That includes Mirage cloak. If you didn't catch on..)

    Perhaps you're right (I'm not entirely against your suggestion). However, the problematic nature of Mirage Cloak has elevated it into the spotlight, while those other skills haven't really ever been perceived to be an issue.

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