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Raids and discrimination.


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So I'm new to this raiding thing and wanted to try it out so i can get the "Hateful Sworl" precursor. So There I was after a long day joining a squad doing Hall of Chains and doing my best with my Barrier + Heal Scourge build (I'm a Necro main) ya know keeping people healthy and safe till we got up to Dhuum. So I was like "oh boy this the finally" and I'm being asked what my skill level is... So I told them I was new and got kicked instantly. Ok no biggy I'll find another group, so I joined another one and got kicked within 10 sec just for being a Necro and this happened with 3 other groups as well within 10 min of time. As a person with severe Social Anxiety this is not very motivating. I get insults thrown at me like "Noob go train" or "No Necros, Thieves..." and if I ask them if there is any problem they feel the need to humiliate me even more. Where did I think that interacting with people would go well. It causes me to eat myself up and ask "what did I do wrong ?" or "what could I have done to make it better". I'm just a person that tries to make something out of life after every setback and curve ball, but I guess if you're treated like an outcast in real life it also reflects online and there is no point trying to be something else. Anyone else in the same pandemonium ?

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@"CountMozenrath.7631" said:So I'm new to this raiding thing and wanted to try it out so i can get the "Hateful Sworl" precursor. So There I was after a long day joining a squad doing Hall of Chains and doing my best with my Barrier + Heal Scourge build (I'm a Necro main) ya know keeping people healthy and safe till we got up to Dhuum. So I was like "oh boy this the finally" and I'm being asked what my skill level is... So I told them I was new and got kicked instantly. Ok no biggy I'll find another group, so I joined another one and got kicked within 10 sec just for being a Necro and this happened with 3 other groups as well within 10 min of time. As a person with severe Social Anxiety this is not very motivating. I get insults thrown at me like "Noob go train" or "No Necros, Thieves..." and if I ask them if there is any problem they feel the need to humiliate me even more. Where did I think that interacting with people would go well. It causes me to eat myself up and ask "what did I do wrong ?" or "what could I have done to make it better". I'm just a person that tries to make something out of life after every setback and curve ball, but I guess if you're treated like an outcast in real life it also reflects online and there is no point trying to be something else. Anyone else in the same pandemonium ?

Were the groups you were joinng listed as exped or ping X kp?

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@"CountMozenrath.7631" said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

Lead your own or consult these raid communities who guide new players through raids. If you cant take the time to respect the group leaders entry requirements, then you certainly wont get respectful treatment in kind.

https://snowcrows.com/raids/training/

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well, if in real life you also apply for a job for which you didn't meet requirements you get a boot. The World does not revolve around you, it is made of constructs to make it work. There is nothing wrong to be a loner, but do not expect to be a part of the group if you can't accept and meet their requirements.Make your own groups, find the guild, get on a discord, get on a Reddit. Make your own team. Do not expect others to settle for lesser. Not in games. Not in real life.

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@"CountMozenrath.7631" said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

Training LFG squads, training guilds. Dhuum isnt an easy boss. As healscourge you are expected to kite and do greens. So when a LFG is up for "exp" that means you can do those mechanics + normal boss mechanics, which is a tall order for new players. You might want to go for a dps build instead. Like holo.

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

The KP and LI is the demand for proof of experience. Or at least successful boss kills.

Especially Dhuum and Qadim are bosses where you will not just get to tag along. Way to many mechanics which unless practiced will wipe your entire raid.

You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

In a sick way it's comforting I'm not the only one in this situation... Anet really hates Necros don't they ?

Not really, it might not be the class I would recommend for someone who starts raids and they might not be top tier for most bosses on dps, but outside of speed runs, necros see play.

Getting kicked in the situation Jeknar describes are far and seldom in todays GW2 (also a result of players being able to check performance).

Just to be clear, you were not kicked due to being a necro.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

Hmmm haven't seen that in a while, but I won't disagree that it might occur. Then again, that would be a clear sign for me to not stick with the squad for long, since the very least one should give a player who "passes" entry requirements is: see how they perform (and not doing so is showing lack of understanding).

Unfortunately though, you are right, some people will go with their "gut feeling", no matter how misplaced or wrong it might be.

Thats the thing. I got in and I was pulling my weight you know keeping people healthy and a permanent barrier uptime, but as soon as we got to Dhuum the Squad leader said "This is not for your kind". I get that he's hard and all that but atleast give me a chance to prove myself. I did some research before entering and used a build from snowcrows. I never died (made some minor mistakes true)

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

Hmmm haven't seen that in a while, but I won't disagree that it might occur. Then again, that would be a clear sign for me to not stick with the squad for long, since the very least one should give a player who "passes" entry requirements is: see how they perform (and not doing so is showing lack of understanding).

Unfortunately though, you are right, some people will go with their "gut feeling", no matter how misplaced or wrong it might be.

Thats the thing. I got in and I was pulling my weight you know keeping people healthy and a permanent barrier uptime, but as soon as we got to Dhuum the Squad leader said "This is not for your kind". I get that he's hard and all that but atleast give me a chance to prove myself. I did some research before entering and used a build from snowcrows. I never died (made some minor mistakes true)

That's not your job on Dhuum as healer though.

Your job as healer on Dhuum (as stack necro) is:

  • boons (which necro provides almost none)
  • healing (which necro is fine for)
  • condition cleanse on phases
  • proper positioning
  • know how to deal with specific mechanics like the bomb and shackles (both of which can either wipe the raid, or kill 1-2 people within 3-4 seconds)

If an experienced group had you tag along for B1-3, then they had figured by now you are lacking experience for Dhuum. Boss 1 is no biggy since all you have to do as support scourge is tag along with the group (no risk what so ever to wipe the raid), river and statues are mini boss events who absolutely do not matter, Dhum is probably the hardest raid boss in the game (depending on if you consider Dhuum or Qadim harder). That's how wing 5 is built up.

What you described so far is: an experienced group decided to have you tag along and carry you through the first 3 bosses on wing 5, since all the mechanics were covered and a bit of barrier from the second healer is all that is needed. THen when reaching Dhuum they had to replace you.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

In a sick way it's comforting I'm not the only one in this situation... Anet really hates Necros don't they ?

Not really, it might not be the class I would recommend for someone who starts raids and they might not be top tier for most bosses on dps, but outside of speed runs, necros see play.

Getting kicked in the situation Jeknar describes are far and seldom in todays GW2 (also a result of players being able to check performance).

Just to be clear, you were not kicked due to being a necro.

So in other words, people in Raids want pure DPS and not someone that keeps em healthy since they can retry from a checkpoint anyway. Maybe i'll make a chronomancer or stay clear of this all together

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

In a sick way it's comforting I'm not the only one in this situation... Anet really hates Necros don't they ?

Not really, it might not be the class I would recommend for someone who starts raids and they might not be top tier for most bosses on dps, but outside of speed runs, necros see play.

Getting kicked in the situation Jeknar describes are far and seldom in todays GW2 (also a result of players being able to check performance).

Just to be clear, you were not kicked due to being a necro.

So in other words, people in Raids want pure DPS and not someone that keeps em healthy since they can retry from a checkpoint anyway. Maybe i'll make a chronomancer or stay clear of this all together

People want the classes and players required to perform the boss mechanics. Ask yourself this: do you know all of the mechanics of the Dhuum fight?

If the answer is no, then you are in serious risk of wiping the entire raid over and over in that fight. Dhuum has multiple mechanics where 1 failure is a reset.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

Hmmm haven't seen that in a while, but I won't disagree that it might occur. Then again, that would be a clear sign for me to not stick with the squad for long, since the very least one should give a player who "passes" entry requirements is: see how they perform (and not doing so is showing lack of understanding).

Unfortunately though, you are right, some people will go with their "gut feeling", no matter how misplaced or wrong it might be.

Thats the thing. I got in and I was pulling my weight you know keeping people healthy and a permanent barrier uptime, but as soon as we got to Dhuum the Squad leader said "This is not for your kind". I get that he's hard and all that but atleast give me a chance to prove myself. I did some research before entering and used a build from snowcrows. I never died (made some minor mistakes true)

That's not your job on Dhuum as healer though.

Your job as healer on Dhuum (as stack necro) is:
  • boons (which necro provides almost none)
  • healing (which necro is fine for)
  • condition cleanse on phases
  • proper positioning
  • know how to deal with specific mechanics like the bomb and shackles (both of which can either wipe the raid, or kill 1-2 people within 3-4 seconds)

If an experienced group had you tag along for B1-3, then they had figured by now you are lacking experience for Dhuum. Boss 1 is no biggy since all you have to do as support scourge is tag along with the group (no risk what so ever to wipe the raid), river and statues are mini boss events who absolutely do not matter, Dhum is probably the hardest raid boss in the game (depending on if you consider Dhuum or Qadim harder). That's how wing 5 is built up.

What you described so far is: an experienced group decided to have you tag along and carry you through the first 3 bosses on wing 5, since all the mechanics were covered and a bit of barrier from the second healer is all that is needed. THen when reaching Dhuum they had to replace you.

That's the most honest comment i've been given, I had no idea he was THAT hard. Maybe I'll roll a chrono or druid. I'll make it work

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

Hmmm haven't seen that in a while, but I won't disagree that it might occur. Then again, that would be a clear sign for me to not stick with the squad for long, since the very least one should give a player who "passes" entry requirements is: see how they perform (and not doing so is showing lack of understanding).

Unfortunately though, you are right, some people will go with their "gut feeling", no matter how misplaced or wrong it might be.

Thats the thing. I got in and I was pulling my weight you know keeping people healthy and a permanent barrier uptime, but as soon as we got to Dhuum the Squad leader said "This is not for your kind". I get that he's hard and all that but atleast give me a chance to prove myself. I did some research before entering and used a build from snowcrows. I never died (made some minor mistakes true)

That's not your job on Dhuum as healer though.

Your job as healer on Dhuum (as stack necro) is:
  • boons (which necro provides almost none)
  • healing (which necro is fine for)
  • condition cleanse on phases
  • proper positioning
  • know how to deal with specific mechanics like the bomb and shackles (both of which can either wipe the raid, or kill 1-2 people within 3-4 seconds)

If an experienced group had you tag along for B1-3, then they had figured by now you are lacking experience for Dhuum. Boss 1 is no biggy since all you have to do as support scourge is tag along with the group (no risk what so ever to wipe the raid), river and statues are mini boss events who absolutely do not matter, Dhum is probably the hardest raid boss in the game (depending on if you consider Dhuum or Qadim harder). That's how wing 5 is built up.

What you described so far is: an experienced group decided to have you tag along and carry you through the first 3 bosses on wing 5, since all the mechanics were covered and a bit of barrier from the second healer is all that is needed. THen when reaching Dhuum they had to replace you.

That's the most honest comment i've been given, I had no idea he was THAT hard. Maybe I'll roll a chrono or druid. I'll make it work

I'm just trying to explain why your experience went as it did. I think it's great you are working on getting into raids. Most wing bosses though have instant wipe mechanics (and Dhumm has like 2-3 of them next to his other stuff), making them a lot more dangerous to a group.

I would recommend a dps role as first character (druid would work too). Simply because you are least often required to do mechanics and simply dps and cc a boss (and proper position). It allows the easiest access to experiences bosses the first time. Obviously as chrono or druid you would be in more demand, even in practice raids, but you would have to learn real fast.

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@"CountMozenrath.7631" said:So I'm new to this raiding thing and wanted to try it out so i can get the "Hateful Sworl" precursor. So There I was after a long day joining a squad doing Hall of Chains and doing my best with my Barrier + Heal Scourge build (I'm a Necro main) ya know keeping people healthy and safe till we got up to Dhuum. So I was like "oh boy this the finally" and I'm being asked what my skill level is... So I told them I was new and got kicked instantly. Ok no biggy I'll find another group, so I joined another one and got kicked within 10 sec just for being a Necro and this happened with 3 other groups as well within 10 min of time. As a person with severe Social Anxiety this is not very motivating. I get insults thrown at me like "Noob go train" or "No Necros, Thieves..." and if I ask them if there is any problem they feel the need to humiliate me even more. Where did I think that interacting with people would go well. It causes me to eat myself up and ask "what did I do wrong ?" or "what could I have done to make it better". I'm just a person that tries to make something out of life after every setback and curve ball, but I guess if you're treated like an outcast in real life it also reflects online and there is no point trying to be something else. Anyone else in the same pandemonium ?

If you are still looking for group to Raid with, i think i might got something for you.

Our guild [WIPE] does training runs and kill runs for every wing. We have lots of experienced raiders in our guild who Will lead trainings.Our most important tool is discord(with or without mic) as our Raid sign-ups and other announcements are there. Our guild use tier system to rank players so we can offer right content for said players while they get better and are ready to move for harder wings. Usual Raid times are 19st--> and 21St-->.Let me know If this is something that suits you. :)EU

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A bit of a side note regarding Barrier Scourge. It is a great class for static raid runs, because you know your fellow teammates and they know they can rely on your barrier and condi cleanse. However you will have hard time getting with it in any other group.I am raid training with Crossroads Inn group and they dont allow scourge healers simply because they allow negating (thus learning) mechanics, which beats the purpose of training. And pugs tend to stick with druids because of the spirits and extra buffs even if druid healing is far from highest in the healer category.

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@Nemezijus.6851 said:A bit of a side note regarding Barrier Scourge. It is a great class for static raid runs, because you know your fellow teammates and they know they can rely on your barrier and condi cleanse. However you will have hard time getting with it in any other group.I am raid training with Crossroads Inn group and they dont allow scourge healers simply because they allow negating (thus learning) mechanics, which beats the purpose of training. And pugs tend to stick with druids because of the spirits and extra buffs even if druid healing is far from highest in the healer category.

That makes a lot of sense, I was hoping support scourge would become a thing... but stick to the meta I guess

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:

@Nemezijus.6851 said:A bit of a side note regarding Barrier Scourge. It is a great class for static raid runs, because you know your fellow teammates and they know they can rely on your barrier and condi cleanse. However you will have hard time getting with it in any other group.I am raid training with Crossroads Inn group and they dont allow scourge healers simply because they allow negating (thus learning) mechanics, which beats the purpose of training. And pugs tend to stick with druids because of the spirits and extra buffs even if druid healing is far from highest in the healer category.

That makes a lot of sense, I was hoping support scourge would become a thing... but stick to the meta I guess

Unfortunately I don't see it happening. Despite the MightyTeapot showing how scourge barrier can carry pugs in raids, it simply is not looked at seriously in real-life pugs. That being said, sometimes I play my barrier scourge in my guild raiding (and raid training) and it is very fun and useful class. If you get serious in raiding and end up doing it it (semi-)static group, give another shot at scourge barrier, Im sure you will have great time with it :)Good luck

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

In a sick way it's comforting I'm not the only one in this situation... Anet really hates Necros don't they ?

Not really, it might not be the class I would recommend for someone who starts raids and they might not be top tier for most bosses on dps, but outside of speed runs, necros see play.

Getting kicked in the situation Jeknar describes are far and seldom in todays GW2 (also a result of players being able to check performance).

Just to be clear, you were not kicked due to being a necro.

So in other words, people in Raids want pure DPS and not someone that keeps em healthy since they can retry from a checkpoint anyway. Maybe i'll make a chronomancer or stay clear of this all together

A note here: there is no checkpoints inside each boss fight. A team composition need to fill all roles that the specific boss encounter has and will often switch around roles between bosses depending on unique encounter requirements. With dhuum, your 10 man squad is usually:1 kiter.1 tank.1 banner warrior.1 pure boon support.1 group healer.The rest is DPS.Out of those, the boon support, banner warrior and either the kiter or healer will do greens with the other being backup. A Barrier Scourge would need to take up that mechanic.

Dhuum is a mechanic heavy boss that is also extremely unforgiving. A missed bomb will wipe the group. A missed green and the encounter auto-fail. A missed shackle will often kill 2 players, and the last 10% require that most of the group is alive. The boss also teleports to a random player at intervals and drop a field, which if that player happen to be standing too close to a reaper will also cause an encounter fail. To make matters worse, dhuum has the worst pre-event that exist in raiding which means reseting cost a lot of time, and the kiting mechanics make people dizzy after a spending too much time on dhuum.

This is why groups at dhuum tend to be quite unforgiving to new raid players. It is not uncommon to see either very higher kill proofs requirements or instant kick after a single mistake. Even very experienced raiders will get kicked if for reasons they fail mechanics, like if they get hit by high ping. It has the worst combination of being difficulty and having bad game design, and has likely caused more static groups to disband than any other raid encounter.

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Nothing more disgusting than meta slaves who follow only 1 composition, not realizing the carry potential of a Heal Scourge.

Funny how they ask you your skill level while taking their builds off of SnowCrows huh?

2 Druids is also unnecessary and stupid. SnowCrows' visitors need to realize there are A LOT of good healers that can swap 1 of those druids. (Tempest, Scourge, Scrapper, FB, etc.)

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Im necro main. Read carefully. Im farming gold to buy my own tag just because my experience was somewhat same as yours.

So basically the thing is the community in this game is casual and its hard for them to clear dhuum boss so even the training groups ask for lot of li and other kp's(kill proofs of other bosses) to make sure you are skilled enough. But sometimes (one or twice a week) some madlad opens a squad for everyone without any requirement. You wait for that opportunity and when it comes you execute the top f'in dps/heal and you hope that others are also competent enough to clear whole w5 to reach dhuum. I cleared w5 SH/River first with a training group consisting of 8 new players with 0 knowledge of encounter and 2 people who knew mechanics in 4-5 tries.

A more easier way would be to fake li/kp and study doing kiting+greens on dhuum. I dont do it because i dont like the idea of faking li/kp but people do it regularly untill they have enough li.

Also kiting is stupidly easy on dhuum, the only challenge is not letting the dps who faked li in dhuum not take messenger aggro(there is always someone who faked li). I think kiting is the easiest role in dhuum. Just watch video on yt and go join pugs and keep your spidy senses up for green aoe you have to attend and thats it.

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One kill should be enough to prove that you're good enough to do the content, why asking for 15-30 kills? This is just exageration on the player skill level in this game, even more so when a group of them get screwed even though they got a lot of LI/Legendary armor/CM rewards from other wings, this alone proves that they are dedicated.

If it wasn't for that team of players who accepted me in Hall of Chains without killproofs, I would've never cleared it, people should be way less obnoxious with their requirements depending on the role, you shouldn't ask that many KPs if the guy only has to drop the bomb far away or break the chain when tied to another guy if this ever happen (speaking of Dhuum btw as a DPS).

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@"Amineo.8951" said:One kill should be enough to prove that you're good enough to do the content, why asking for 15-30 kills? This is just exageration on the player skill level in this game, even more so when a group of them get screwed even though they got a lot of LI/Legendary armor/CM rewards.

If it wasn't for that team of players who accepted me in Hall of Chains without killproofs, I would've never cleared it, people should be way less obnoxious with their requirements depending on the role, you shouldn't ask that many KPs if the guy only has to drop the bomb far away or break the chain when tied to another guy if this ever happen (speaking of Dhuum btw as a DPS).

People do not believe in adapting. They believe in getting it over with. This game is like a job to them. That's why they want to play with people like them and anything that increases their chance of getting it over with fast, they take it. I dont mind this behaviour but i surely judge people for having so high requirements for such easy content and not having a static group after playing raids for so long if they have such specific gameplay needs.

They shouldve been the minority and the people who just wanted to play the content without the need to put entry filter for other players shouldve been the majority but the lack of population and content has resulted in most of the people in the experienced category. These people want "smooth clears" for which they will sacrifice their gamemode and purposely make it harder for new players without giving them a chance and I do not agree with this.

I think a group can clear well enough with good mix of experienced people and new players with no li or kp requirements on lfg. If you are experienced, you ping your li+kp yourself without anyone asking so commander knows how many exp players are there and is it possible to clear boss considering their experience , comp, mechanics of encounter, etc. Yes there will be downs and maybe 1-2 resets but raid will be cleared and in comparable time to how much time it takes to find people to complete a pug. And completely scrap the concept of training raids. This will also put more concern on learning mechanics before coming to raids(As raids should be hard content). Right now, If you are new player=you are bad player. But if what i said was the situation then, if you dont know mechanics=you are bad player. This spares all the new players who work hard to learn mechanics before coming in instance from getting flamed and getting pushed away from gamemode. And people who fake li or who get carried to be revealed.

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