The time has come to make Fast Hands and Warrior's Sprint baseline — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The time has come to make Fast Hands and Warrior's Sprint baseline

Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

Also, GS- HB-> never gets the attention it deserves not even when fully spec'd for it. IOW, it doesn't do enough damage. I know people will say the damage is fine but competitively it fails at doing any damage to a thinking target. And everyone has come up against this skill before (exaggerated but most people who know the game). Increase by 2-5% at least.

Finally the biggest change that must get attention at some time. Warrior's Sprint is now leaning towards having swiftness and removing slowing conditions instead of having that perma 25% movement increase. So the question becomes, will it become baseline? Or will Anet leave the demanded trait to still be just that- demanded? Anet is taking the right steps towards what looks like a baseline. So here's my suggestion- Make Warrior's Sprint give lot's more swiftness and remove chill, immobilized , and crippled, at the expense of that 25% movement increase.

ANET SINCERELY HEAR ME OUT- I know it's tempting to not buff warrior baseline and open him up to the other traits, as it would call into question every other class that may need equal parts balancing. HOWEVER, warrior has been pigeon-held for too long and it's time to give the class the freedom it deserves. Thusly, the other classes deserve their buffs or balance updates respectively. In any case, do not ignore this issue any more pllleeeeeeeeeeeeease. It's been years of warrior being isolated from certain traits in comp. Free us from defense, discipline, and our only selective trait. We're being squeezed more and more.

Imagine there's no condi

Comments

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

    Bite me.

  • MyPuppy.8970MyPuppy.8970 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

    Eles don't neither, but swiftness uptime is not really an issue.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

    Necros don't have one and don't you mention that signet. Discipline is a top tier trait-line (for where warrior's sprint matters). Locust Signet is a mediocre skill. Guardian also doesn't have a trait for this (except in dragonhunter a very specialized traitline).

    If you think everyone should get a free 25% movement speed (that doesnt stack) outside of combat I am with you tho

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018

    When the game first launched, the only profession in the game with a permanent movespeed increase was Thief with Signet of Shadows, which used to have a higher cooldown and a worse active. They gave most professions a build option for increased movespeed for QoL purposes when traveling the maps out of combat since burning skills was kind of lame.

    Now everyone wants this effect, which was originally profession-specific, for free with zero build investment.

    If that's not a testament to power creep, I don't know what is.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    When the game first launched, the only profession in the game with a permanent movespeed increase was Thief with Signet of Shadows, which used to have a higher cooldown and a worse active. They gave most professions a build option for increased movespeed for QoL purposes when traveling the maps out of combat since burning skills was kind of lame.

    Now everyone wants this effect, which was originally profession-specific, for free with zero build investment.

    If that's not a testament to power creep, I don't know what is.

    Well outside of combat it's not a power increase, its a QoL increase. Running is boring, fighting is fun (or at least is supposed to), In combat most players have more or less permanent swiftness (except when attacked but then they have cripple/chill/immob anyway), so it wouldn't really change anything but prolly shouldn't be changed.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Warrior runes have been -20% since 2014. I'm not sure how they all of a sudden become an excuse to give warriors fast hands baseline.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Of all the professions, warrior doesn't really need any buffs.

    Let's start with Ele on that front.

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards.

    No one can be this bad a sPvPer. It isn't possible.

    Do you want a balanced GW2? Then you are obliged to unironically agree with this suggestion!

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aplethoraof.2643 said:
    Of all the professions, warrior doesn't really need any buffs.

    Let's start with Ele on that front.

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards.

    No one can be this bad a sPvPer. It isn't possible.

    You haven't been on the forums long.
    Cause yes....

    Yes they can be..

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

    I'm not sure I understand. Don't you have the same opportunity cost of running 6 warrior runes and not using the trait line?

    While the trait line provides a vastly superior version of the 6 piece rune bonus.

    What is the argument here to make this base line?

    there is no argument, just another person wanting something for free.

    Do you pay or work hard to get changes/buffs? Or are you just hypocrite that is ok with buffs, fixes, changes, etc... for free, too?
    Do you want better/improved/balanced game for free or you want to pay/work hard for it?

    On the topic, fast hands baseline would be HUGE QoL change for warrior allowing other builds to not suck so bad.
    Giving up Discipline traitline is actually more impactful, than you might think. Traits like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, Brawler's Recovery, Warrior's Sprint, etc
    provide a lot of useful utility and QoL stuff, especially for spellbreaker.
    So for not losing this special utility/QoL stuff, Discipline traitline would be still necessary.
    But when it comes to more support-ish non-Discipline builds, which include Tactics traitline f.e., Fast Hands would help a lot.

    I guess it's just that some people don't want warrior to get good stuff because their class/spec is strong (or straight OP) and they know their class won't get any buffs because of that. Basically "No buffs for me? No buffs for you then, either!"
    And those people most likely think Full Counter is in good spot now that it deals almost no damage.

    I am afraid due to this, Anet will not make Fast Hands baseline. Because people would DEMAND special buffs for their classes, principially.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @cryorion.9532 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

    I'm not sure I understand. Don't you have the same opportunity cost of running 6 warrior runes and not using the trait line?

    While the trait line provides a vastly superior version of the 6 piece rune bonus.

    What is the argument here to make this base line?

    there is no argument, just another person wanting something for free.

    Do you pay or work hard to get changes/buffs? Or are you just hypocrite that is ok with buffs, fixes, changes, etc... for free, too?
    Do you want better/improved/balanced game for free or you want to pay/work hard for it?

    On the topic, fast hands baseline would be HUGE QoL change for warrior allowing other builds to not suck so bad.

    QoL =/= balance changes. Baseline fast hands is major power creep, I don't see any suggestions to balance this in any way. What do you intend to give up instead? Since you didn't give any suggestion how to counter balance this change, this demand is exactly what was mentioned: nonsensical demands with no balance in mind.

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Giving up Discipline traitline is actually more impactful, than you might think. Traits like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, Brawler's Recovery, Warrior's Sprint, etc
    provide a lot of useful utility and QoL stuff, especially for spellbreaker.
    So for not losing this special utility/QoL stuff, Discipline traitline would be still necessary.
    But when it comes to more support-ish non-Discipline builds, which include Tactics traitline f.e., Fast Hands would help a lot.

    I guess it's just that some people don't want warrior to get good stuff because their class/spec is strong (or straight OP) and they know their class won't get any buffs because of that. Basically "No buffs for me? No buffs for you then, either!"

    Warrior? You mean the class which was beyond broken on Spellbreaker with PoF that it took multiple nerfs to bring them in line, yet they still roam strong?

    The only class which runs a core and both elite builds in the pve meta?

    Come on, you can't be so naive that people would seriously consider you unbiased. At least try to hide your bias a little.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

    I'm not sure I understand. Don't you have the same opportunity cost of running 6 warrior runes and not using the trait line?

    While the trait line provides a vastly superior version of the 6 piece rune bonus.

    What is the argument here to make this base line?

    there is no argument, just another person wanting something for free.

    Do you pay or work hard to get changes/buffs? Or are you just hypocrite that is ok with buffs, fixes, changes, etc... for free, too?
    Do you want better/improved/balanced game for free or you want to pay/work hard for it?

    On the topic, fast hands baseline would be HUGE QoL change for warrior allowing other builds to not suck so bad.

    QoL =/= balance changes. Baseline fast hands is major power creep, I don't see any suggestions to balance this in any way. What do you intend to give up instead? Since you didn't give any suggestion how to counter balance this change, this demand is exactly what was mentioned: nonsensical demands with no balance in mind.

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Giving up Discipline traitline is actually more impactful, than you might think. Traits like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, Brawler's Recovery, Warrior's Sprint, etc
    provide a lot of useful utility and QoL stuff, especially for spellbreaker.
    So for not losing this special utility/QoL stuff, Discipline traitline would be still necessary.
    But when it comes to more support-ish non-Discipline builds, which include Tactics traitline f.e., Fast Hands would help a lot.

    I guess it's just that some people don't want warrior to get good stuff because their class/spec is strong (or straight OP) and they know their class won't get any buffs because of that. Basically "No buffs for me? No buffs for you then, either!"

    Warrior? You mean the class which was beyond broken on Spellbreaker with PoF that it took multiple nerfs to bring them in line, yet they still roam strong?

    The only class which runs a core and both elite builds in the pve meta?

    Come on, you can't be so naive that people would seriously consider you unbiased. At least try to hide your bias a little.

    The issue is, that I am biased because I am warrior main :) And I am not trying to hide it. I think it is pretty obvious from my original post in this thread.
    The only reason I would love to have Fast Hands as baseline, is for being able to use 2nd weaponset faster with non-Discipline builds than without FH baseline. It is that simple.
    Now please explain to me the power creep part. Check Discipline traitline to see what you are giving up, which damage modifiers. So not using Discipline for power damage builds is actually DPS loss. The only "power creep" I can think of, is more tanky builds being able to swap weapons and adjust to combat situations faster.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cryorion.9532 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @cryorion.9532 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

    I'm not sure I understand. Don't you have the same opportunity cost of running 6 warrior runes and not using the trait line?

    While the trait line provides a vastly superior version of the 6 piece rune bonus.

    What is the argument here to make this base line?

    there is no argument, just another person wanting something for free.

    Do you pay or work hard to get changes/buffs? Or are you just hypocrite that is ok with buffs, fixes, changes, etc... for free, too?
    Do you want better/improved/balanced game for free or you want to pay/work hard for it?

    On the topic, fast hands baseline would be HUGE QoL change for warrior allowing other builds to not suck so bad.

    QoL =/= balance changes. Baseline fast hands is major power creep, I don't see any suggestions to balance this in any way. What do you intend to give up instead? Since you didn't give any suggestion how to counter balance this change, this demand is exactly what was mentioned: nonsensical demands with no balance in mind.

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Giving up Discipline traitline is actually more impactful, than you might think. Traits like Versatile Rage, Versatile Power, Brawler's Recovery, Warrior's Sprint, etc
    provide a lot of useful utility and QoL stuff, especially for spellbreaker.
    So for not losing this special utility/QoL stuff, Discipline traitline would be still necessary.
    But when it comes to more support-ish non-Discipline builds, which include Tactics traitline f.e., Fast Hands would help a lot.

    I guess it's just that some people don't want warrior to get good stuff because their class/spec is strong (or straight OP) and they know their class won't get any buffs because of that. Basically "No buffs for me? No buffs for you then, either!"

    Warrior? You mean the class which was beyond broken on Spellbreaker with PoF that it took multiple nerfs to bring them in line, yet they still roam strong?

    The only class which runs a core and both elite builds in the pve meta?

    Come on, you can't be so naive that people would seriously consider you unbiased. At least try to hide your bias a little.

    The issue is, that I am biased because I am warrior main :) And I am not trying to hide it. I think it is pretty obvious from my original post in this thread.

    Bias and rational and objective balance suggestions do not go hand in hand.

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    The only reason I would love to have Fast Hands as baseline, is for being able to use 2nd weaponset faster than without FH. It is that simple.

    Obviously, the fact that fast hands is specifically locked behind a trait line should be a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want it baseline.

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Now please explain to me the power creep part. Check Discipline traitline to see what you are giving up, which damage modifiers. So not using Discipline for power damage builds is actually DPS loss. The only "power creep" I can think of, is more tanky builds being able to swap weapons and adjust to combat situations faster.

    You have that backwards, it's not which traits you give up with discipline which matter. It's which traits you can take in other lines while having Fast Hands which matter.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    Hmm... if fast hands is so mandatory that every build is locked to discipline, do not be surprised if one day it becomes nerfed to promote build diversity. :D

  • @Skotlex.7580 said:
    Hmm... if fast hands is so mandatory that every build is locked to discipline, do not be surprised if one day it becomes nerfed to promote build diversity. :D

    yes forced inclusivity by making everything suck.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    Hmm... if fast hands is so mandatory that every build is locked to discipline, do not be surprised if one day it becomes nerfed to promote build diversity. :D

    yes forced inclusivity by making everything suck.

    The opposite approach of "boost everything else until it's equally desirable" usually ends up being called power creep, too. :P

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Bias and rational and objective balance suggestions do not go hand in hand.

    In this case, I am biased for Fast Hands to be baseline because from my point of view, it wouldn't cause power creep that many people are afraid of.
    Let's think of possible power creep scenarios that could happen with FH baseline (thus all involving Strength traitline):

    • Strenght, Defense and Spellbreaker warrior. With current FC damage and level 1 adrenaline burst damages, what power creep do you expect? Unkillable double endure pain dps?

    • Strength, Defense and Arms warrior. This one would be probably the most improved core warrior build for PvP/WvW. With signet and Arms trait synergy, it could be very interesting build. Another possiblity would be tank gear and Unsuspecting Foe/Burst Precision traits for nice crits against cced enemies. What power creep do you expect? Unkillable double endure pain tank/dps?

    • Strength, Arms and Spellbreaker warrior. No defense is self explanatory. Basically just like current Strength, Discipline and Spellbreaker build but without Discipline traits and with better signet synergy. What power creep do you expect? Hard to kill dps?

    • Strength, Tactics and Spellbreaker warrior. No defense is self explanatory. What power creep do you expect from using Tactics traitline? Hard to kill dps/support?

    • Strength, Tactics and Defense warrior. Another interesting build which wouldn't suck with FH baseline anymore. What about power creep? Unkillable double endure pain dps/support hybrid?

    • Strength, Tactics and Arms warrior. No defense is self explanatory. This build could work with tank gear and Unsuspecting Foe/Burst Precision traits for nice crits against cced enemies. But again, is that power creep? Hard to kill tank/support/dps hybrid?

    Now let's think again. With all builds mentioned above, you lose every Discipline trait. So no more adrenaline on weapon swap, no more adrenaline left upon using burst skill. Burst skills (including Full Counter) have longer cooldown. No more condition cleanse on weapon swap. No more immobilize removal when using mobility skills. No more base 25% movement speed (unless certain runes used) and no damage bonus while having swiftness. All those things are very important for smooth rotations and skill executions, especially for Spellbreaker. There is trade off.

    Also let's not forget PvE. I have played countless times non-Discipline builds and it is very unsatisfying and annoying to play. Warrior's overall kit is tailored for 5 sec weapon swap. Fast Hands brings the fluidity and smoothness to the whole class.

    After all, probably the highest warrior dps build in PvP/WvW would be Strength, Arms and Discipline warrior. So could there be more power creep for warrior? Or just more build diversity? It is sad to see all possible builds being held back due to missing one (minor) trait.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Obviously, the fact that fast hands is specifically locked behind a trait line should be a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want it baseline.

    Things can change. The fact that warrior doesn't use dagger as weapon should be a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want warriors to use this weapon type. Right?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You have that backwards, it's not which traits you give up with discipline which matter. It's which traits you can take in other lines while having Fast Hands which matter.

    Can you name me trait combinations that you think would make warrior overpowered in combination with Fast Hands and increase power creep?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    @cryorion.9532 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    You have that backwards, it's not which traits you give up with discipline which matter. It's which traits you can take in other lines while having Fast Hands which matter.

    Can you name me trait combinations that you think would make warrior overpowered in combination with Fast Hands and increase power creep?

    I'll make it real simple:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-Power_Boonstrip_Bannerslave(Fractal) Fractal Spellbreaker
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Berserker_-_Condi_Bannerslave Raid condi bannerslave

    Both of those builds are top tier. Both of those builds excel at their role and purpose. Both of those builds would benefit from having Fast Hands baseline.

    That's simply the absolute top tier builds, not getting into any custom or slightly different builds.

    Power creep does not and is not limited to damage. Power creep incorporates all performance. Even if a class becomes more tanky or has more utility, while retaining an ability/skill, that can cause power creep. Your view on the trait lines is limited at best, and heavily biased and skewed at worst. You either lack imagination of what is possible with baseline 5s weapon swap (the reset on Berserker F1 abilities to not say the least) or simply do not care.

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Things can change. The fact that warrior doesn't use dagger as weapon should be a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want warriors to use this weapon type. Right?

    Exactly the same situation. Giving classes their elite specialization weapons baseline would cause power creep, in most cases in direct power (for example, the Firebrand Axe is almost completely a strait upgrade to the core guardian sword). You have basically made my point.

    You are correct, the fact that warrior does not get dagger WITHOUT taking Spellbreaker is a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want warrior to have access to those skills otherwise.

  • syszery.1592syszery.1592 Member ✭✭✭

    I think OP just mistyped. He meant: The time has come to finally realize what a bad idea making the two traits Fast Hands and Warrior's Sprint baseline would be.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I'll make it real simple:
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-Power_Boonstrip_Bannerslave(Fractal) Fractal Spellbreaker
    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Berserker_-_Condi_Bannerslave Raid condi bannerslave

    Both of those builds are top tier. Both of those builds excel at their role and purpose. Both of those builds would benefit from having Fast Hands baseline.

    That's simply the absolute top tier builds, not getting into any custom or slightly different builds.

    Power creep does not and is not limited to damage. Power creep incorporates all performance. Even if a class becomes more tanky or has more utility, while retaining an ability/skill, that can cause power creep.

    You realize that top meta warrior builds (both core BS and condi Discipline BS) take Discipline traitline in PvE because of Inspiring Battle Standard and Axe Mastery (and of course FH), right? What powercreep do you expect from Power Boonstrip BS besides being able to swap faster to remove boons or to use mace/mace for ccs on demand? Do you think you can do as high dps as core BS? You act like you still had it all. Think about it also from the rotation fluidity and smoothness point of view.

    Builds you mentioned are situational builds (aka according to you "Absolute Top Tier builds"), like No Pain No Gain fractals and few raid bosses. They would obviously benefit from Fast Hands baseline... that is the point of wanting FH as baseline...
    Are you saying that (with FH baseline) Power Boonstrip BS can suddenly outperform core BS warrior everywhere? Or Condi Tactics BS can suddenly outperform Condi Discipline BS?
    Isn't it more about those situational builds can be closer to the true top meta builds in terms of performance? And other non-discipline builds being viable?

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Your view on the trait lines is limited at best, and heavily biased and skewed at worst. You either lack imagination of what is possible with baseline 5s weapon swap (the reset on Berserker F1 abilities to not say the least) or simply do not care.

    I asked you, to name me examples of trait combinations that (together with FH baseline) would make warrior overpowered/increase power creep.
    You linked me situational builds (aka according to you "Absolute Top Tier builds") with vague arguments.

    Unless you specify an exact traits and build that would outperfom all true top meta warrior builds currently in game (in every game mode) everywhere, there is no solid argument. Do it. I don't mind accepting that I was wrong, that this XY build would be truly broken and increase power creep by game-breaking amount :scream:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Exactly the same situation. Giving classes their elite specialization weapons baseline would cause power creep, in most cases in direct power (for example, the Firebrand Axe is almost completely a strait upgrade to the core guardian sword). You have basically made my point.

    You are correct, the fact that warrior does not get dagger WITHOUT taking Spellbreaker is a dead indicator that Arenanet does not want warrior to have access to those skills otherwise.

    The point of that part wasn't about power creep, but about that things can change and are not set in stone.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 3, 2019

    Yes, condi berserker is a situational build. /s

    You asked for example, examples were given.

    What constitutes a proper example then if not a build which is meta in "some fractals and raids bosses"? Are you noticing how heavily biased you are?

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    The point of that part wasn't about power creep, but about that things can change and are not set in stone.

    What?

    Then think of a better example since yours backfired and didn't work at all.

    You can't pick and chose which part of an example you want to use. The dagger not being available without spellbreaker is exactly why certain skills are locked behind trait lines.

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    Unless you specify an exact traits and build that would outperfom all true top meta warrior builds currently in game (in every game mode) everywhere, there is no solid argument. Do it. I don't mind accepting that I was wrong, that this XY build would be truly broken and increase power creep by game-breaking amount

    What? Are you serious? So unless the trait change outperforms all builds, it is neither overpowered nor power creep?

    Okay. Thanks. Gl to you.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    Warrior has the least amount of skills from all the professions 17 on core 18 on berserker and spellbreaker -2 for banners in pve not much wigle room for utility so by having access to the weapon skills on demand helps alleviate the shortcommings stemming from that. Imagine every profession had to take their special trait line so their skills are not on double cooldown 60 second steal, 80 second virtues. Imagine that every build on mesmerererer has to have illusions trait line to work in pve and pvp so you are not stuck there just auto attacking.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, condi berserker is a situational build. /s

    Would you care to explain your definition of a situational build?
    For example, I do not recommend people play that particular build for the Samarog or Keep Construct encounters. At the same time it is preferred for bosses such as Soulless Horror or Matthias. Meaning that the version of the BS Warrior build that is strongest depends on the situation at hand. How does this not qualify for the label of a "situational build"?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, condi berserker is a situational build. /s

    Would you care to explain your definition of a situational build?
    For example, I do not recommend people play that particular build for the Samarog or Keep Construct encounters. At the same time it is preferred for bosses such as Soulless Horror or Matthias. Meaning that the version of the BS Warrior build that is strongest depends on the situation at hand. How does this not qualify for the label of a "situational build"?

    Yes it is situational. At the same time it is meta tier for those situations. Giving the build Fast Hands makes it even better. That's called power creep.

    Using the situational argument as excuse to promote power creep is what I was being sarcastic about.

    That said, and since people love to go by forum avatars, I have probabaly more play time on warrior in endgame pve content than most people here demanding baseline Fast Hands (close to 300 LI on warrior alone and often fractal daylies) . Yet I still would not ask for such nonsense.

    Why? Because as some one who plays multiple classes extensively, I value balance over "I want my main to be overpowered".

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 4, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    That said, and since people love to go by forum avatars, I have probabaly more play time on warrior in endgame pve content than most people here demanding baseline Fast Hands (close to 300 LI on warrior alone and often fractal daylies) . Yet I still would not ask for such nonsense.

    Why? Because as some one who plays multiple classes extensively, I value balance over "I want my main to be overpowered".

    Eh... when I asked you for exact examples of overpowered builds with FH baseline, you just came up with vague arguments.
    And then wished me gl. Isn't it just that you can't come up with anything solid?

    Is non-Discipline warrior going to suddenly become top dps, outperforming even Discipline builds? While in reality, FH baseline would improve non-Discipline builds (obviously), making them closer to current top tier meta builds, aka core BS and condi Discipline BS WHILE providing that HUGE "QoL" of having smoother and more fluid rotations. Well, so far I haven't read any solid argument from you how would FH baseline make warrior OP.

    As "close to 300 LI on warrior alone and often fractal daylies" warrior, you should be able to give exact example.

    About those 2 situational builds you posted (power fractal boonbreaker and condi Tactics BS). You want to perform exact rotations with FH baseline and without Discipline traitline? Are you sure? You realize that you are missing traits that are necessary for proper rotation execution (compared to Discipline variants of those builds). But I already mentioned this (naming specific traits). You really act like you would get whole Discipline traitline together with Fast Hands as baseline.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @cryorion.9532 said:
    You really act like you would get whole Discipline traitline together with Fast Hands as baseline.

    No, I act as though this was power creep.

    You are the one who keeps wanting to push the narrative that it's equal to an entire discipline line, and since it is not, it would be fine.

    That's your and my position in a nutshell.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

    Necros don't have one and don't you mention that signet. Discipline is a top tier trait-line (for where warrior's sprint matters). Locust Signet is a mediocre skill. Guardian also doesn't have a trait for this (except in dragonhunter a very specialized traitline).

    If you think everyone should get a free 25% movement speed (that doesnt stack) outside of combat I am with you tho

    cough cough quickening thirst cough cough

    That said:

    • The elementalist require to be attuned to air for it's movement speed buff to kick in or use a signet.
    • The warrior need to wield melee weapon. (it's not a "melee requirement")
    • The ranger either need to equip a signet, not have any imparing condition on him (Druid) or be in beastmode(SB)
    • The necromancer need to equip a signet or be above 75% health.
    • The guardian (DH) lose it's passive movement speed when one of it's life saving inbuilt skill is on CD.
    • The thief need either a signet or to be stealthed.
    • The mesmer need chronomancer to have a passive movement boost (swiftness generated by the signet can be corrupted/removed)
    • The revenant need to spend ressource for it's "passive" movement boost (herald).

    The only ones that don't have a condition hindering their passive movement speed are the engineer and the chronomancer.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    And all of them have good gap closers on them one might say teleport even.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

    Necros don't have one and don't you mention that signet. Discipline is a top tier trait-line (for where warrior's sprint matters). Locust Signet is a mediocre skill. Guardian also doesn't have a trait for this (except in dragonhunter a very specialized traitline).

    If you think everyone should get a free 25% movement speed (that doesnt stack) outside of combat I am with you tho

    cough cough quickening thirst cough cough

    That said:

    • The elementalist require to be attuned to air for it's movement speed buff to kick in or use a signet.
    • The warrior need to wield melee weapon. (it's not a "melee requirement")
    • The ranger either need to equip a signet, not have any imparing condition on him (Druid) or be in beastmode(SB)
    • The necromancer need to equip a signet or be above 75% health.
    • The guardian (DH) lose it's passive movement speed when one of it's life saving inbuilt skill is on CD.
    • The thief need either a signet or to be stealthed.
    • The mesmer need chronomancer to have a passive movement boost (swiftness generated by the signet can be corrupted/removed)
    • The revenant need to spend ressource for it's "passive" movement boost (herald).

    The only ones that don't have a condition hindering their passive movement speed are the engineer and the chronomancer.

    You're not really talking about the opportunity cost of getting 25-33% movement speed here.

    Elementalist needs to equip one of its better traitlines for power (air), or Tempest for more or less permanent 25-33% speed

    Warrior needs to pick up their second best trait line and any of their like top 5 weapons and gain other relevant bonuses

    Ranger can go beastmastery and run the shout heal for permanent swiftness, druid and sacrifice the stealth (bad option) or soulbeast+beastmastery or soulbeast+bird

    Necro needs to either pick up a terrible traitline (blood) or a super mediocre skill (locust signet)

    Guardian only has it if they go DH and only OOC basically and have to pick up a mediocre trait for it

    Thief also gets permanent swiftness from either acrobatics or DD. Also shortbow 5/rifle 4.

    Ye, mesmer needs chrono for it, missed that one, mesmer has a lot of mobility skills tho sword 1, staff 2, blink etc

    1 point of upkeep is nothing, the only limitation is having to play power pretty much. Condi Rev has no source of movement speed tho outside of blasting the dwarf field.

    Engi has either 25% from inventions or very high uptime swiftness from various sources most notably photon accelerator.

    De and power Mirage can also both run rune of fireworks without making major concessions for their builds.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

    Necros don't have one and don't you mention that signet. Discipline is a top tier trait-line (for where warrior's sprint matters). Locust Signet is a mediocre skill. Guardian also doesn't have a trait for this (except in dragonhunter a very specialized traitline).

    If you think everyone should get a free 25% movement speed (that doesnt stack) outside of combat I am with you tho

    cough cough quickening thirst cough cough

    That said:

    • The elementalist require to be attuned to air for it's movement speed buff to kick in or use a signet.
    • The warrior need to wield melee weapon. (it's not a "melee requirement")
    • The ranger either need to equip a signet, not have any imparing condition on him (Druid) or be in beastmode(SB)
    • The necromancer need to equip a signet or be above 75% health.
    • The guardian (DH) lose it's passive movement speed when one of it's life saving inbuilt skill is on CD.
    • The thief need either a signet or to be stealthed.
    • The mesmer need chronomancer to have a passive movement boost (swiftness generated by the signet can be corrupted/removed)
    • The revenant need to spend ressource for it's "passive" movement boost (herald).

    The only ones that don't have a condition hindering their passive movement speed are the engineer and the chronomancer.

    You're not really talking about the opportunity cost of getting 25-33% movement speed here.

    Elementalist needs to equip one of its better traitlines for power (air), or Tempest for more or less permanent 25-33% speed

    Warrior needs to pick up their second best trait line and any of their like top 5 weapons and gain other relevant bonuses

    Ranger can go beastmastery and run the shout heal for permanent swiftness, druid and sacrifice the stealth (bad option) or soulbeast+beastmastery or soulbeast+bird

    Necro needs to either pick up a terrible traitline (blood) or a super mediocre skill (locust signet)

    Guardian only has it if they go DH and only OOC basically and have to pick up a mediocre trait for it

    Thief also gets permanent swiftness from either acrobatics or DD. Also shortbow 5/rifle 4.

    Ye, mesmer needs chrono for it, missed that one, mesmer has a lot of mobility skills tho sword 1, staff 2, blink etc

    1 point of upkeep is nothing, the only limitation is having to play power pretty much. Condi Rev has no source of movement speed tho outside of blasting the dwarf field.

    Engi has either 25% from inventions or very high uptime swiftness from various sources most notably photon accelerator.

    De and power Mirage can also both run rune of fireworks without making major concessions for their builds.

    I'm just puting things into perspective based on what you comment on:

    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement.

    The opportunity cost of all those only depend an the "meta" and the "meta" is something that players create. For example, the scourge make good use of the blood traitline, it's hard to say that the traitline is really "terrible". Swiftness uptime can be really good for most of the professions (if you take the necromancer as an example, it's easy to have 100% swiftness uptime just flashing shroud with speed of shadow, so it's pretty much meaningless to point out that thief can have a lot of swiftness), it's not passive movement speed anyway since you need to trigger it.

  • BlackTruth.6813BlackTruth.6813 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2019

    There is no more geomancy or hydromancy sigils, why are people still worked up about and are so against baseline fast hands?
    Is it THAT hard for people to stow weapon full counter or just flat out proc and then dodge it? Is it still hard for people in 2019 to count 2-3 dodges and then bait a Warrior cd, rinse and repeat and then kill the Warrior?

    I don't get it. Also, for some reason people don't think "telegraphed skills" is too hard to counter and is having trouble dodging Warriors in 2019.

    And yes elementalist needs a buff, that doesn't mean baseline fast hands will put it out of the meta. But obviously it's better that we don't get d/d ele aids back, it's better to make elementalist into something different and balanced if it's going to be buffed.

    Seriously, name me a build that is going to be OP with baseline fast hands. Go. What build are you going to say? Gunflame? YOU NEED ARMS TO MAKE GUNFLAME WORK IN PVP LOL. You legit have to sacrifice defense to make Gunflame berserker work. That's how bad that build will be even with baseline fast hands.

    Mace + Hammer? Guard and it's elite specs counter that, stability all day = that build is useless.

    Name me a build that will be OP with baseline fast hands. I'm sure you won't even know what you're talking about.

  • @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, condi berserker is a situational build. /s

    Would you care to explain your definition of a situational build?
    For example, I do not recommend people play that particular build for the Samarog or Keep Construct encounters. At the same time it is preferred for bosses such as Soulless Horror or Matthias. Meaning that the version of the BS Warrior build that is strongest depends on the situation at hand. How does this not qualify for the label of a "situational build"?

    Yes it is situational. At the same time it is meta tier for those situations. Giving the build Fast Hands makes it even better. That's called power creep.

    Using the situational argument as excuse to promote power creep is what I was being sarcastic about.

    I see. The post I quoted made it seem as if you were refuting the fact that it is a situational build, which came across as an unreasonable statement.
    We will likely see more power creep in Guild Wars 2 in the future, as it is well established by now. The specialization patch prior to HoT, first generation elite-specializations, quad-stat gear, second generation elite-specializations, this game has a solid history of power creep. Though I suppose the fact that the Condi Berserker BS offers notably higher DPS than the Power Spellbreaker version could serve as prove that power creep is not happening everywhere or all the time.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2019

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yes, condi berserker is a situational build. /s

    Would you care to explain your definition of a situational build?
    For example, I do not recommend people play that particular build for the Samarog or Keep Construct encounters. At the same time it is preferred for bosses such as Soulless Horror or Matthias. Meaning that the version of the BS Warrior build that is strongest depends on the situation at hand. How does this not qualify for the label of a "situational build"?

    Yes it is situational. At the same time it is meta tier for those situations. Giving the build Fast Hands makes it even better. That's called power creep.

    Using the situational argument as excuse to promote power creep is what I was being sarcastic about.

    I see. The post I quoted made it seem as if you were refuting the fact that it is a situational build, which came across as an unreasonable statement.
    We will likely see more power creep in Guild Wars 2 in the future, as it is well established by now. The specialization patch prior to HoT, first generation elite-specializations, quad-stat gear, second generation elite-specializations, this game has a solid history of power creep. Though I suppose the fact that the Condi Berserker BS offers notably higher DPS than the Power Spellbreaker version could serve as prove that power creep is not happening everywhere or all the time.

    I'm not in the camp of people who agree that potential future power creep should be a reason to introduce power creep at every step possible (especially when it affects only 1 class, which a change in Fast Hands would).

    Spellbreaker was among the most broken and overpowered specializations ever when introduced (for pvp/WvW) and has seen its fair share of nerfs since then. Berserker was and remains a very strong pve elite specialization. You are comparing apples to oranges.

    Let me make this real simple for people:

    • the chances of getting baselines Fast Hands are probably around 0%
    • the chances of getting the Discipline trait line nerfed by continously comparing it with other trait lines arguing that Fast Hands would be balanced are tremendously high

    So keep going on examining how Fast Hands without Discipline is fine (it is not) because Discipline is so important and powerful. The result you get from Arenanet might not be what you expect though.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement. If you want to change one thing, change that. Everything else is just whining.

    Necros don't have one and don't you mention that signet. Discipline is a top tier trait-line (for where warrior's sprint matters). Locust Signet is a mediocre skill. Guardian also doesn't have a trait for this (except in dragonhunter a very specialized traitline).

    If you think everyone should get a free 25% movement speed (that doesnt stack) outside of combat I am with you tho

    cough cough quickening thirst cough cough

    That said:

    • The elementalist require to be attuned to air for it's movement speed buff to kick in or use a signet.
    • The warrior need to wield melee weapon. (it's not a "melee requirement")
    • The ranger either need to equip a signet, not have any imparing condition on him (Druid) or be in beastmode(SB)
    • The necromancer need to equip a signet or be above 75% health.
    • The guardian (DH) lose it's passive movement speed when one of it's life saving inbuilt skill is on CD.
    • The thief need either a signet or to be stealthed.
    • The mesmer need chronomancer to have a passive movement boost (swiftness generated by the signet can be corrupted/removed)
    • The revenant need to spend ressource for it's "passive" movement boost (herald).

    The only ones that don't have a condition hindering their passive movement speed are the engineer and the chronomancer.

    You're not really talking about the opportunity cost of getting 25-33% movement speed here.

    Elementalist needs to equip one of its better traitlines for power (air), or Tempest for more or less permanent 25-33% speed

    Warrior needs to pick up their second best trait line and any of their like top 5 weapons and gain other relevant bonuses

    Ranger can go beastmastery and run the shout heal for permanent swiftness, druid and sacrifice the stealth (bad option) or soulbeast+beastmastery or soulbeast+bird

    Necro needs to either pick up a terrible traitline (blood) or a super mediocre skill (locust signet)

    Guardian only has it if they go DH and only OOC basically and have to pick up a mediocre trait for it

    Thief also gets permanent swiftness from either acrobatics or DD. Also shortbow 5/rifle 4.

    Ye, mesmer needs chrono for it, missed that one, mesmer has a lot of mobility skills tho sword 1, staff 2, blink etc

    1 point of upkeep is nothing, the only limitation is having to play power pretty much. Condi Rev has no source of movement speed tho outside of blasting the dwarf field.

    Engi has either 25% from inventions or very high uptime swiftness from various sources most notably photon accelerator.

    De and power Mirage can also both run rune of fireworks without making major concessions for their builds.

    I'm just puting things into perspective based on what you comment on:

    Every class has a trait that increases their movement speed passively, warrior is the only one with a melee only requirement.

    The opportunity cost of all those only depend an the "meta" and the "meta" is something that players create. For example, the scourge make good use of the blood traitline, it's hard to say that the traitline is really "terrible". Swiftness uptime can be really good for most of the professions (if you take the necromancer as an example, it's easy to have 100% swiftness uptime just flashing shroud with speed of shadow, so it's pretty much meaningless to point out that thief can have a lot of swiftness), it's not passive movement speed anyway since you need to trigger it.

    The Meta is definitively created by anet, even if not always fully intentionally. The players did not make defense by far the best warrior traitline and discipline the second best by a large margin. Anet did that.

    Blood is an awful traitline overall, it makes you a decent ressbot that's pretty much it. Outside of zerging (and carrying bad raidgroups I guess) it has 0 use.

    Flashing shroud doesn't work on scourge cause of massive CD and LF cost. Even on core/reaper it isn't feasible to flash of CD ooc and is clearly not comparable to the cost of having to pick up discipline and the best trait even without the movement speed.

    @BlackTruth.6813 said:
    There is no more geomancy or hydromancy sigils, why are people still worked up about and are so against baseline fast hands?
    Is it THAT hard for people to stow weapon full counter or just flat out proc and then dodge it? Is it still hard for people in 2019 to count 2-3 dodges and then bait a Warrior cd, rinse and repeat and then kill the Warrior?

    I don't get it. Also, for some reason people don't think "telegraphed skills" is too hard to counter and is having trouble dodging Warriors in 2019.

    And yes elementalist needs a buff, that doesn't mean baseline fast hands will put it out of the meta. But obviously it's better that we don't get d/d ele aids back, it's better to make elementalist into something different and balanced if it's going to be buffed.

    Seriously, name me a build that is going to be OP with baseline fast hands. Go. What build are you going to say? Gunflame? YOU NEED ARMS TO MAKE GUNFLAME WORK IN PVP LOL. You legit have to sacrifice defense to make Gunflame berserker work. That's how bad that build will be even with baseline fast hands.

    Mace + Hammer? Guard and it's elite specs counter that, stability all day = that build is useless.

    Name me a build that will be OP with baseline fast hands. I'm sure you won't even know what you're talking about.

    Baselining fast hands would prolly change nothing due to how essential discipline is and how strength isn't all that awesome with spellbreaker. The bigger question is what trait would replace it as it would essentially be a "free" trait and also why bother when it won't really change anything.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Yep it changes nothing for sure. It doesn't give Warrior instant cast, it doesn't magically make zerker stance into a Mesmer invuln. I just don't get why people think it's "power creep" when it does nothing. Seriously a non-game changing trait can just replace it if that's what people are worked up about.

  • cryorion.9532cryorion.9532 Member ✭✭✭

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Baselining fast hands would prolly change nothing due to how essential discipline is and how strength isn't all that awesome with spellbreaker. The bigger question is what trait would replace it as it would essentially be a "free" trait and also why bother when it won't really change anything.

    It would improve non-discipline builds, providing huge "QoL" for rotations. You know that annoying moment, when you play dagger/axe mace/mace power boonbreaker in fractals, you swap to mace/mace for fast ccs and then are stuck for another 7 seconds on mace/mace? That is annoying af, breaking rotation fluidity.
    For PvP/WvW, good luck playing non-discipline builds against current meta specs. As you said, Discipline traitline is essential (not only because of Fast Hands, but Fast Hands is the main reason, we take Discipline traitline).

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @cryorion.9532 said:

    @lodjur.1284 said:
    Baselining fast hands would prolly change nothing due to how essential discipline is and how strength isn't all that awesome with spellbreaker. The bigger question is what trait would replace it as it would essentially be a "free" trait and also why bother when it won't really change anything.

    It would improve non-discipline builds, providing huge "QoL" for rotations. You know that annoying moment, when you play dagger/axe mace/mace power boonbreaker in fractals, you swap to mace/mace for fast ccs and then are stuck for another 7 seconds on mace/mace? That is annoying af, breaking rotation fluidity.

    Warrior doesn't really need PvE buffs tho, it's basically irreplaceable and this would actually be a meaningful big there. Being stuck on an awkward bar isn't a QoL problem it's a power level problem.

    For PvP/WvW, good luck playing non-discipline builds against current meta specs. As you said, Discipline traitline is essential (not only because of Fast Hands, but Fast Hands is the main reason, we take Discipline traitline).

    Exactly my point, the immob clear and shorter/cheaper bursts are still essential. Warrior does need some kinda buff, or rather it needs several other builds toned down so it can be competitive again.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

    I'm not sure I understand. Don't you have the same opportunity cost of running 6 warrior runes and not using the trait line?

    While the trait line provides a vastly superior version of the 6 piece rune bonus.

    What is the argument here to make this base line?

    there is no argument, just another person wanting something for free.

    Yes, a QoL update that would allow us to finally use other traits.

    Imagine there's no condi

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @gmmg.9210 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @gmmg.9210 said:
    Warrior Runes now do the job of arguably what was the most crucial minor trait on the Warrior. This allows other players to open up the weapon swaps, but also makes warriors have a trait that feels redundant. Thus, competitively, with all the warrior telegraphs, Warrior feels weak in some regards. Take the opportunity to make Fast hands baseline and remake it to where it's more damage or versatility on weapon swap through some other means.

    I'm not sure I understand. Don't you have the same opportunity cost of running 6 warrior runes and not using the trait line?

    While the trait line provides a vastly superior version of the 6 piece rune bonus.

    What is the argument here to make this base line?

    there is no argument, just another person wanting something for free.

    Yes, a QoL update that would allow us to finally use other traits.

    Don't worry, I'm sure the balance team is already looking into how the discipline trait line can be changed as to encourage other trait line use. Not sure you are going to like the result. It definitely won't be baseline Fast Hands.

    You are right though, when a trait line sees use in most builds, it might need some "adjusting". Don't come around crying when this happens though, you have been warned.

  • Actually even just Warrior sprint becoming baseline wouldn't be bad, I think i'll be able to play some Warrior builds without fast hands but without having to sacrifice for rune of the lynx.

    It fits with the class too, Warrior's are supposed to be athletic as well. It's kinda brutal to play without Warrior sprint or any movespeed rune too cause people just run in a straight line and dodge everything without having to press endurance dodge.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    No more powercreep please. Better to have muliple options for movement speed so you aren't locked into one build. For example one trait/skill that gives passive movespeed with melee weps, one that gives swiftness, one that gives superspeed. All with different requirements/conditions etc.

    // Yanim

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.