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If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?


Cerioth.7062

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NOTE: This thread is meant for pure fun and speculation. I wanted it under the lore sub forums because I want the answers to actually be based on lore and what would be likely.

So, let's imagine Tyria, x years from now. Let's imagine the charr have sorted out their ghost problem, and possibly found a Khan-Ur to unite them. Let's say the truce falls apart due to one reason or another, which would result in another open war versus humans.

How would each faction react to this? Would other races go support the charr or the humans, assuming their earlier grievances with either race? Who would stay neutral? What would be the outcome?

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Sylvari would not join the fight, Charr and Human would try to persuade Asura, but I think it would lead to dividing Asura into two organizations, Norn would join the race they think is strongest, so they would absolutely fight with Charr on the battlefield.

Skritt would join Charr and Norn - the closest allies and natural because of the region - notice the skritt are not really liked in Maguuma and Kryta.

Tengu would stay independent.

Quaggan and Kodan would also join the Northers (Charr, Norn Skritt, Quaggan and Kodan).

Human would be left on their own, asking two hardest Races that will not want to join the fight - Sylvari and Tengu, wont be successful, so they will try to get allies from the Mists - searching for Gods' power and will use the most advanced mesmer magic.

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@Arden.7480 said:Sylvari would not join the fight, Charr and Human would try to persuade Asura, but I think it would lead to dividing Asura into two organizations, Norn would join the race they think is strongest, so they would absolutely fight with Charr on the battlefield.

Skritt would join Charr and Norn - the closest allies and natural because of the region - notice the skritt are not really liked in Maguuma and Kryta.

Tengu would stay independent.

Quaggan and Kodan would also join the Northers (Charr, Norn Skritt, Quaggan and Kodan).

Human would be left on their own, asking two hardest Races that will not want to join the fight - Sylvari and Tengu, wont be successful, so they will try to get allies from the Mists - searching for Gods' power and will use the most advanced mesmer magic.

Would the kodan really join the charr, though? I thought they dislike the charrs.

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They would join the Norn. Kodan dont really have any relationship with races different than Norn and Quaggan, they would fight for their own homes too, when the army of Human approaches Ascalon they will have to walk through the Shiverpeaks first, and Norn as I said will join the strongest. Most common sense of fight, rather than playing with some weird mesmer tricks.

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Why exactly would the norn join the charr? Just because "they're strong"? That's not how the norn work.

I'm assuming nearly everyone would support if not side with the humans to maintain the status quo as established with the treaty, as they would recognize that the charr are reneging on said treaty just because they have the opportunity to.

Perspective is important as well. Ebonhawke would be the first target in a charr/human war, it would be the main point of the conflict, the flashpoint, and crucially the humans would be on the defensive and that is far more likely to breed sympathy especially given Ebonhawke's been through all that before.

The most likely outcome is a bloody stalemate unless Ebonhawke is taken by storm with the charr taking advantage of the treaty suddenly ending and moving in before the humans have a chance to react, and that would DEFINITELY mean others would be more inclined to take humanity's side given the atrocity that would have just been committed.

This is how international relations work. The aggressor will nearly always be seen in a worse light, whether they have 'justifications' or not. And who is more likely to be the aggressor? The charr.

The humans are more than capable of fighting the charr to a stand still even without the aid of other races.

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Some Sylvari might join either side just for curiosity. Others are likely against war and try to stop it. Asuras just dont care, might sell weapons to who pays more. Norns take both side where there is good fight. Centaurs most likely will join charr or they have enough and stay neutral. Tengus are neutral. You might see some skritt on battlefield looting dead bodies for shiny. Other lesser races dont care. Largos might show up to kill whoever they see worth killing.

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Humans would fight a defensive war, they dont have resources nor the tech to make assault again the charr, their only bridge should be ebonhawk as have been seem all the time but this time charr have more advanced warmachines and we havent see any tech from the kingdom of kryta.

If human in central tyria have any chance of win is with the help from the other human countrys but at the moment of the hystory elona is out of play and cantha closed their borders.

Asura will sell weapons and (the inquest) take advantage of the conflict to further their onterest.

Sylvaris will try negotiate a truce and remain neutral.

Norm will do what a norm do: forge his legend, be it in the battlefield or in some other way.

The interesting thing is what will happen with the orders of tyria:

The Vigil will try the enforce the truce with the sylvari and create safe zones for the refugees of war.

The priory will ignore the whole problem until someone start disrupt their excavation trying to found some lost superweapon

The order of whisper will split in sub factions each one supporting one faction or other but i thing the bigger part will support the humans.

The wild card will be how the elder dragon problem is solved

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I kind of suspect that the treaty will crumble once Kralkatorrik is dead. With the ghost issue having a solution in sight thanks to Rytlock, the Flame Legion nearly wiped out, and the branded a declining threat, the need for a peace treaty will reduce since the primary reason for the treaty was to reduce threats to the Iron Legion. While Smodur and Malice both support the treaty, Bangar didn't - he just went along with it to avoid fighting the Iron and Ash legions while dealing with so many other threats. With the reduction of threats, and the prevailing issue of renegades, this may change.

What will no doubt happen would be a case of "Bangar-supporting-Blood + Renegades" versus "everyone else".

But let's go with the crazed idea that Iron, Ash, and Blood uniformly wage war on humans again...

No one will really join either side. The two races were at war with each other before the game, and while there might have been mercenaries hired here and there, in large, the norn were non-involved, the sylvari too distant to care, and the asura made deals with both sides (just enough to not anger the other side).

But we've also had the addition of minor races, so let's look at those:

  • Quaggans have much closer ties to humans, but no ties to Ascalon. They might be recruited, but given they're peace lovers they'd likely avoid joining the conflict, maybe just giving humans some relief efforts where they can afford such.
  • Skritt are present in Ascalon, but the charr view them non-ironically as rodents to exterminate not to deal with. Some may try to turn skritt into shock troopers, like the Flame Legion tried to do to grawl in GW1, but that'd be the extent of any alliance. Humans treat skritt better, but without the bribery of shinies, I doubt they'd manage to get skritt support.
  • Hylek have no ties to charr, and are too segregated to make a unified alliance with humans in supporting their side of the war, they also have too many problems with needing to rebuild and repopulate after Zhaitan (if that hasn't been solved, that is).
  • Ogres are a threat to both humans and charr, just like before and during the game, they'd remain a threat to both sides, a third party in the conflict.
  • Grawl... Similarly to hylek, too segregated and disorgnized to give unified alliance with either side. Like in GW1, some charr may attempt to turn grawl into shock troopers. This is likely the extent they'd get.
  • Kodan would probably move for peace, if they were to get involved. Most likely wouldn't get involved until Jormag is a true non-issue though.
  • Dredge would keep to themselves, for the moletariate!
  • Tengu would keep to themselves, for the wall!
  • Choya would choya about.
  • Awakened and Elonians would likely join Ascalonians if they're able.
  • Olmakhan would likely keep to themselves, they left for a damned reason!
  • Jotun would jotun about.
  • Krait would try to enslave everyone.
  • Centaurs would push to keep the war going and probably side with charr. Damned two-legs!
  • Harpies would try to kidnap and seduce all the males like always.
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I doubt such a war would really get anywhere. Even if the charr capture Ebonhawke, there is a large obstacle between Ascalon and Kryta. Without any safe passage over the Shiverpeaks the war would just stalemate. For now the Legions are better off building their empire eastward. There's no formidable foes to our knowledge and they can grab all the resources on the way. The far shiverpeaks are still blocked by Jormag, so until that thaws, charr and humans could just send angry diplomatic notes.(So the next war between the charr and the humans would have to be a cold war, maybe fought over proxies.)Plus Smodur is trying to turn Ebonhawke into an ally of the Iron Legion, which may just work, as they'll be economically far closer to their neighbour than Kryta. Plus they're already killing ogres together. What better bonding exercise is there over ogre campaigns?

That being said, the only way the high legions will act in that manner is if they finally unite under a new Khan-Ur. It might happen, but until then the charr are just as likely to fall to infighting as declaring war on outsiders. And they're already fighting ghosts, branded, renegades, separatists, ogres, harpies, dredge and Flame Legion.

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Various thoughts:

  • At this point, given the relatively integrated relationships between the Charr in Ascalon and the other races, any war between Humans and Charr would almost certainly have to start with Charr leaders and forces not currently present in the GW2 game world. The barbarian horde out of the East, as it were.

  • Remember that part of how the Asura waypoint and gate networks are even allowed to exist, is their guaranteed neutrality and non-military use. Therefore if full scale war broke out between Humans and Charr, the Asura would likely shut down the gate and waypoint networks as a tool to help end the conflict, forcing anyone fighting to march the old fashioned way.

  • Which means if the Charr want to get to Kryta from Ascalon, they'll have to march west through the Shiverpeaks, which no doubt every race that lives there will defend their various territories. That includes the Norn, Dredge "fighting the oppressors", Grawl, Quaggans, Kodan et al. And I would expect an aggressive human response coming to the Shiverpeaks as well, both to keep the Charr out of Kryta if at all possible, and remembering the lessons of GW1 that hunkering down behind walls doesn't work. Bottom line, controlling the passes through the Shiverpeaks will likely be the first major strategic goal for either side, and the Norn would likely side with the Humans in that event.

  • With the Shiverpeaks being a major front and bottleneck to strategic movement, the Charr could possibly try to take a southern route via the Maguuma Jungle maps and coastal ocean. That would bring them into immediate conflict with the Asura and Sylvari, and even the Tengu if they're not careful. The Asura can meet the Charr war machine head on with their own technology, the Sylvari will fight fanatically to defend the Pale Tree, the Tengu have their own heavily fortified turf, and the Maguuma terrain is highly entangling and favors the defenders. And all the while, the Charr fleets trying to maneuver on the coast would likely be harassed from the south by Elonian corsairs supporting Kryta. Collectively, that southern route is a can of worms (jungle wurms) that even the Charr shouldn't want to open.

  • Speaking of Elonian corsairs, the other human nations and their closer allies (like the Free Awakened) will almost certainly jump in with Kryta, as much as they are able. Lion's Arch would probably try to mediate until the Charr were at their door, in which case the gloves come off and Lion's Arch joins the human side.

  • Another significant obstacle, more to the Charr than the humans, is the broader integration of the races across Tyria. It's safe to assume that the majority of Charr in the current game world outside Ascalon, like those in the Lionguard for example, are gladiums with little loyalty to the High Legions. Like Rox, they have found other homes and causes for which to fight. So while certainly there could be some "enemy within" scenarios, it's also highly likely that Charr would end up fighting Charr, which would spread some undermining morale and loyalty issues back through the High Legions. Especially since the Charr today, and particularly the Charr in Ascalon, ain't what they used to be in GW1; they still talk big, but their interactions with the other races have softened them more than they like to admit.

  • So again, for this war to happen at all, I think it almost certainly would have to start with the High Legions off the present game map. The Charr as we presently know them in Ascalon simply aren't up to it anymore. It most likely would end up with the High Legions fighting everybody in their path, not just the humans. And it likely would end very badly for the Charr.

EDIT: See next post...

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Thinking further on my previous post and the potential consequences: I think it likely that if the High Legions decided to start another war against the humans and invade the game world via Ascalon, it would eventually lead to another civil war among the Charr.

The way I see it, based on the observed behavior of Charr NPCs in game, there are presently three major factions evolving in Charr culture:

  • The "barbarian" High Legions off the game map. Those still closest to the Charr culture of GW1.
  • The "civilized" Charr -- who have been "tamed" by their interactions and relationships with the other races, and would probably side with them if the High Legions start another war. Lionguard members, Pact members, Olmakhan, and so forth. Evon and Rox definitely fall into this category, and I think Almorra probably does as well.
  • And between them, the "Ascalonian" or "Black Citadel" Charr. Which is the main body of Charr presently in game, and already torn between the two sides. Rytlock falls into this category, and probably would end up joining the "civilized" faction before too long.

I think these social divisions within the Charr would boil to the surface very quickly in the event of another war, especially once the inevitable setbacks start happening at the front.

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@"Jimbru.6014" said:Thinking further on my previous post and the potential consequences: I think it likely that if the High Legions decided to start another war against the humans and invade the game world via Ascalon, it would eventually lead to another civil war among the Charr.

The way I see it, based on the observed behavior of Charr NPCs in game, there are presently three major factions evolving in Charr culture:

  • The "barbarian" High Legions off the game map. Those still closest to the Charr culture of GW1.
  • The "civilized" Charr -- who have been "tamed" by their interactions and relationships with the other races, and would probably side with them if the High Legions start another war. Lionguard members, Pact members, Olmakhan, and so forth. Evon and Rox definitely fall into this category, and I think Almorra probably does as well.
  • And between them, the "Ascalonian" or "Black Citadel" Charr. Which is the main body of Charr presently in game, and already torn between the two sides. Rytlock falls into this category, and probably would end up joining the "civilized" faction before too long.

I think these social divisions within the Charr would boil to the surface very quickly in the event of another war, especially once the inevitable setbacks start happening at the front.

And that would be a kittening interesting base for a fleshed out expansion that is NOT about the Elder Dragons.

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@Arden.7480 said:Sylvari would not join the fight, Charr and Human would try to persuade Asura, but I think it would lead to dividing Asura into two organizations, Norn would join the race they think is strongest, so they would absolutely fight with Charr on the battlefield.

Skritt would join Charr and Norn - the closest allies and natural because of the region - notice the skritt are not really liked in Maguuma and Kryta.

Tengu would stay independent.

Quaggan and Kodan would also join the Northers (Charr, Norn Skritt, Quaggan and Kodan).

Human would be left on their own, asking two hardest Races that will not want to join the fight - Sylvari and Tengu, wont be successful, so they will try to get allies from the Mists - searching for Gods' power and will use the most advanced mesmer magic.

I disagree with almost everything.

Quaggan dont fight. So they will be neutral.Kodan will be neutral, because of their culture does not allow that kind of interference.Norn would join the side that promises them the most glory. Joining the perceived stronger side is exactly the opposite of glory. So if they would join in, which is doubtfull, they would join the humans.Asura will evaluate that if the humans fall, they will be next. So since they dont want to be eaten by hungry charr, they join the human side.Sylvari will try to stay neutral. Until some remember that all asura deserve to die. Then things will become very ugly very quickly.Tengu will be neutral. See Kodan.Ogre will be neutral, they just fight everybody.Skritt just do not care.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Arden.7480 said:Sylvari would not join the fight, Charr and Human would try to persuade Asura, but I think it would lead to dividing Asura into two organizations, Norn would join the race they think is strongest, so they would absolutely fight with Charr on the battlefield.

Skritt would join Charr and Norn - the closest allies and natural because of the region - notice the skritt are not really liked in Maguuma and Kryta.

Tengu would stay independent.

Quaggan and Kodan would also join the Northers (Charr, Norn Skritt, Quaggan and Kodan).

Human would be left on their own, asking two hardest Races that will not want to join the fight - Sylvari and Tengu, wont be successful, so they will try to get allies from the Mists - searching for Gods' power and will use the most advanced mesmer magic.

I disagree with almost everything.

Quaggan dont fight. So they will be neutral.Kodan will be neutral, because of their culture does not allow that kind of interference.Norn would join the side that promises them the most glory. Joining the perceived stronger side is exactly the opposite of glory. So if they would join in, which is doubtfull, they would join the humans.Asura will evaluate that if the humans fall, they will be next. So since they dont want to be eaten by hungry charr, they join the human side.Sylvari will try to stay neutral. Until some remember that all asura deserve to die. Then things will become very ugly very quickly.Tengu will be neutral. See Kodan.Ogre will be neutral, they just fight everybody.Skritt just do not care.

So... Basically everybody will be neutral. And you disagree with a meaningless theory that is simply for fun. Ehh there are many factors I avoided because its pointless to speculate about it, its like speculating if Jennah was hatched from an egg - just for fun.

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@Cerioth.7062 said:To the people who say Kodan will not interfere, I'd like to point out that their culture is about maintaining balance, not about being pacifistic. They are not.

Correct, however, furthering a conflict is not maintaining balance, it's furthering imbalance at best. That's why I suggest that if the kodan get involved (they do have their own issues after all, from icebrood to dredge), then they'd be most likely to be attempting mediation between the two sides to regain peace. The only reason I'd see them joining the war would be in becoming prejudice that one side or the other is creating imbalance (neither side does, technically, as while the charr are destructive they do help regrow the land afterwards; meanwhile humans aren't as destructive, but do work to help restore broken land and wildlife).

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned this wiki page yet. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World It does show some details on how the races view one another.

That being said the Charr would surely and easily defeat Ebonhawke and Kryta but should the other races feel the Charr becoming too dominant they could very well intervene. The Charr are stronger than ever without the Flame legion, and humanity has lost two kingdoms. Even in the previous war they made it all the way to Orr so what is to stop them wiping humanity out this time? The other races would have to intervene or they would be next in line, the Charr are a military race after all. They can't exist in peace with the rest of Tyria unless a bigger fish comes out to play.

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You see, that's the thing. It's not just about races anymore in Tyria, but factional alignments and alliances. The races have become so intertwined by socializing, trade, and so forth, that you can't really take on one race by itself anymore. As I described above, an invasion by the High Legions through Ascalon targeting Kryta would end up fighting pretty much EVERYBODY, just by simple geography and logical relations.

Oh yeah, and something I overlooked earlier in the analysis of a Charr invasion attempt through the Shiverpeaks: two of the three Pact Orders have their main bases in the Shiverpeaks. If you think the Priory isn't going to fight for its precious records and artifacts, or Almorra and the Vigil will roll over for the High Legions just because some tin hat from the Charr Homelands said so, both you and the High Legions are in for a big surprise. When the High Legions try to give Almorra orders just because she's a Charr, or give the Vigil some kind of "join, get out of the way, or die" kind of speech, I can imagine Almorra laughing right before the Vigil guns open up in their faces. "We're used to fighting forces of nature. Who the skritt do you think YOU are?"

Bottom line: this ain't the world of GW1, where the humans were the Charr's only target and the human kingdoms didn't work together. There are many other races and factions in the world now; races and factions that have learned the power of working together, including the humans. And of THAT, the High Legions should best be wary.

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Seems more logical to me that the Charr would solicit the aid of centaurs. And since the rest of the playable races would have no particular reason to fall out with humans they'd probably stay on-side, which might lead the charr to looking to jotun, ogres, and the exiting enemies of each faction.

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@"Biff.5312" said:Seems more logical to me that the Charr would solicit the aid of centaurs. And since the rest of the playable races would have no particular reason to fall out with humans they'd probably stay on-side, which might lead the charr to looking to jotun, ogres, and the exiting enemies of each faction.

Which is a big problem for the Charr, because the Charr at large haven't really made allies with anybody. It's always been the Charr against the world, and even these days, the average Ascalonian Charr only puts up with the other races out of necessity. There's just some they dislike less than others. So while I have no doubt the other races would come to the humans' aid if requested; I can't imagine anyone readily siding with the Charr in the event of a major war.

Centaurs? Maybe. Human "enemy of my enemy" and all that. But that would probably require the Charr giving up conquered territory to the Centaurs, and we know what the Charr would think of that. Assuming the Centaurs would even go for it, since they pretty much hate EVERYBODY.

The Jotun are only found in the Shiverpeaks, are even more primitive now than the Grawl (which is saying a lot) and there aren't enough of them left to make a major contribution. Plus again, they're hostile to just about everyone.

The Dredge are numerous, adept with both magic and technology, and highly motivated. Unfortunately, it's a rare Dredge that trusts outsiders, and the Molten Alliance affair has probably particularly soured them on the Charr. The group we deal with in LS4 Ep 5 is only dealing with us out of necessity for survival. So I can't see an alliance coming easily from the Dredge either.

The Ogres are in direct conflict with the Charr in Ascalon. If the Charr could make any ogre allies, it would likely be only on a tribe by tribe basis. Ditto for the Grawl.

Whoever offers the Skritt the most shinies will have them on their side. But again, that would probably go scratch by scratch, so it's not unthinkable for both sides to have Skritt mercs on their side. Assuming the Charr would even lower themselves to hiring the Skritt; remember, the Charr use "Skritt" as a curse word.

I can't imagine the Charr trusting the Nightmare Court, Inquest, Sons of Svanir, or other such villainous or dragon minion groups. And they're damn sure not going to trust the Flame Legion. As Dr. Smith famously said, evil knows evil. Also, several such groups, particularly the first two I mentioned, have suffered heavy losses and may not be able to play much role beyond advisers or insider threats anyway.

Human traitors are certainly possible, but not easy to come by in a racially motivated war. Think of Baltar in BSG. White Mantle survivors or Separatists as traitorous human insiders? Or maybe human bandits? Possibly. But the Charr had hate-hate relationships with the former, and the latter probably wouldn't be trusted beyond firing range.

So, yeah. The humans have a ready coalition of other races and factions who would probably help them. The Charr...well, they have themselves.

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@phs.6089 said:Lets be real here, humans are aliens on Tyria.

Yes, but humans have been in Tyria for so long that their extra-Tyrian origin is all but forgotten. The humans in Tyria now are certainly born native, even if their species originally wasn't. Think of a family immigrating to America. The original ancestors coming in through Ellis Island may have been German, Irish, or whatever nationality. But with each passing generation, the descendants have less connection to the Old Country and think more of themselves as Americans. Humans in Tyria are the same way; their ancestors were from somewhere else, but humans in Tyria now are native; thousands of years and however many generations have made them so.

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@Jimbru.6014 said:

@phs.6089 said:Lets be real here, humans are aliens on Tyria.

Yes, but humans have been in Tyria for so long that their extra-Tyrian origin is all but forgotten. The humans in Tyria now are certainly born native, even if their species originally wasn't. Think of a family immigrating to America. The original ancestors coming in through Ellis Island may have been German, Irish, or whatever nationality. But with each passing generation, the descendants have less connection to the Old Country and think more of themselves as Americans. Humans in Tyria are the same way; their ancestors were from somewhere else, but humans in Tyria now are native; thousands of years and however many generations have made them so.

Tyria is not America, German, Irish etc are same species. (can add more but it would go too political)

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