Since anet refuses to remove down state from WvW, how about a sigil of 100% damage to down enemies? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Since anet refuses to remove down state from WvW, how about a sigil of 100% damage to down enemies?

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Comments

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    In my point of view:
    We don't need to remove downstate, just need to remove the action "F" to ress while in combat.

    • traits will still work.
    • Blobs will not benefit from the sheer numbers to ressbot a downed.

    That kind of fix will gives also more relevance to support builds in the game, because they can do something no other build can (if build for it). The tech is already there (we can't ress a full dead while in combat) so it should be minimal effort.

    Still the downed can be helped if there is just one ranger pewpewing.

    Blobs would still run mass res skills, as they do at the moment. MI/IoL/transfusion and the like are all either meta or somewhat common in blobs.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Too much is designed around down state to remove it. Do we really want EVERYONE playing perma invun mesmers? There's already enough of that now IMO.

  • If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

  • santso.9201santso.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    Time to change that minstrell to zerker and cleave

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

    Downed state becomes a crutch in out manned fights,whats this inability of not understanding the underlying issue here ? If only you do is gank and rely on downed state yourself,i can see why.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

    Downed state becomes a crutch in out manned fights,whats this inability of not understanding the underlying issue here ? If only you do is gank and rely on downed state yourself,i can see why.

    There is no underlying issue. Virtually every mechanic in the game favours a larger group over a smaller one, perhaps we should remove boon sharing, AOE/group heals, barrier, etc because they are "crutches" for larger groups. Or maybe some people could just grasp the basis of balance in a game is even numbers and that the lack of even numbers in WvW is just one of the many reasons no one sensible takes it seriously.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

    Downed state becomes a crutch in out manned fights,whats this inability of not understanding the underlying issue here ? If only you do is gank and rely on downed state yourself,i can see why.

    technically going into an outnumbered fight is a bad decision that can often be ignored by difference in experience, but i can see why you would want to keep the consequences of such a bad move minimal :3

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

    Downed state becomes a crutch in out manned fights,whats this inability of not understanding the underlying issue here ? If only you do is gank and rely on downed state yourself,i can see why.

    There is no underlying issue. Virtually every mechanic in the game favours a larger group over a smaller one, perhaps we should remove boon sharing, AOE/group heals, barrier, etc because they are "crutches" for larger groups. Or maybe some people could just grasp the basis of balance in a game is even numbers and that the lack of even numbers in WvW is just one of the many reasons no one sensible takes it seriously.

    Its about people going Down several times in a fight when fighting outmanned,but one touch resses and rallies being the factor of them still winning.Not because they have more people,not because theyre better,but because theyre getting carried and can go down 4x In one minute.Where finishing off is slower than a guy instantly ressing as the same time you finish.And cleaving in those fights makes you waste time and or utilities you also need to keep on fighting the rest.

    Only if you roam,which somehow alot of people are preaching to do, you will know this issue.But alot of people dont actually roam,unless you think running with 10 to jump on 2 people is roaming while still going down in the meanwhile..Then sure.

    Theres no sensible reason to defend such a crappy "keep the casual players happy" mechanic in its current state unless it favors your side.

    Also some people play for a challenge,not easy lootbags with 3x more numbers behind them.Must be hard to understand right.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

    Downed state becomes a crutch in out manned fights,whats this inability of not understanding the underlying issue here ? If only you do is gank and rely on downed state yourself,i can see why.

    There is no underlying issue. Virtually every mechanic in the game favours a larger group over a smaller one, perhaps we should remove boon sharing, AOE/group heals, barrier, etc because they are "crutches" for larger groups. Or maybe some people could just grasp the basis of balance in a game is even numbers and that the lack of even numbers in WvW is just one of the many reasons no one sensible takes it seriously.

    Its about people going Down several times in a fight when fighting outmanned,but one touch resses and rallies being the factor of them still winning.Not because they have more people,not because theyre better,but because theyre getting carried and can go down 4x In one minute.Where finishing off is slower than a guy instantly ressing as the same time you finish.And cleaving in those fights makes you waste time and or utilities you also need to keep on fighting the rest.

    Only if you roam,which somehow alot of people are preaching to do, you will know this issue.But alot of people dont actually roam,unless you think running with 10 to jump on 2 people is roaming while still going down in the meanwhile..Then sure.

    Theres no sensible reason to defend such a crappy "keep the casual players happy" mechanic in its current state unless it favors your side.

    Also some people play for a challenge,not easy lootbags with 3x more numbers behind them.Must be hard to understand right.

    i mean i do understand your point, but i see it problematic that you try to argue here with a moral highground that can aswell be used against you.

    WvW has huge teamsizes wich inevitably create encounters with an enormous gap in experience and i do think the mode has to provide options for less experienced players to not just be fodder. superior numbers + downedstate does that. it does not 'keep the casual players happy', because the only thing it might do is keep them alive, but they wont kill that more experienced roamer unless that roamer overcommits, they still often be more than just annoyed. and roamers still can win outnumbered fights frequently with current downedstate.
    sure one can make changes to downedstate and make it more punishing, but it has its purpose and just shouting 'you noobs just want to get carried' , wont really get a discussion about it going.

  • zinkz.7045zinkz.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

    Downed state becomes a crutch in out manned fights,whats this inability of not understanding the underlying issue here ? If only you do is gank and rely on downed state yourself,i can see why.

    There is no underlying issue. Virtually every mechanic in the game favours a larger group over a smaller one, perhaps we should remove boon sharing, AOE/group heals, barrier, etc because they are "crutches" for larger groups. Or maybe some people could just grasp the basis of balance in a game is even numbers and that the lack of even numbers in WvW is just one of the many reasons no one sensible takes it seriously.

    Its about people going Down several times in a fight when fighting outmanned,but one touch resses and rallies being the factor of them still winning.Not because they have more people,not because theyre better,but because theyre getting carried and can go down 4x In one minute.Where finishing off is slower than a guy instantly ressing as the same time you finish.And cleaving in those fights makes you waste time and or utilities you also need to keep on fighting the rest.

    You know the funny thing is better players are better at handling downstate, years ago you just had to watch the 4 or 5 PvP teams who could actually really play this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) and see how they handled rezzes/stomps compared to the rest of the PvP teams (let alone WvW players), down state increases the rather low skill cap of this game.

    As for getting carried, again it is no different to pretty much every other mechanic in the game in that it favours a larger group. E.G - if you try and 1v3 then you not only have to go through the player's heals, blocks, etc that you are focusing, but the barriers, heals, cleanses, reflects, protection, etc they get from the other two that "carry" them.

    Furthermore if you want to talk about getting carried in WvW, then that game mode is virtually ignored for balancing means playing whatever is the most broken cheese carries so, so hard. And let's not even go into how this supposed "action" combat game carries people mechanically by aiming for them.

    Theres no sensible reason to defend such a crappy "keep the casual players happy" mechanic in its current state unless it favors your side.

    Actually the only sensible outlook to WvW is to treat it casually, it lacks all the things you need for competitive PvP, you are trying to bang a square peg into a round hole.

    Also some people play for a challenge,not easy lootbags with 3x more numbers behind them.Must be hard to understand right.

    The only thing hard to understand is why anyone would play WvW for challenge when as a skilled, competitive PvP game it is a complete joke, this is a game where a guy who has played thousands of hours can show his "skill" by 1v1'ing a guy who has played a month, or where a guild on Discord, playing full cheese tryhard comp, can show their "skill" against some PvDoor commander with half the players not in squad let alone TS/Discord, running let's say a variety of builds.

    The basis for challenge (and indeed fun) in PvP games is to have your opponents around the same level of experience, skill, etc with a similar attitude to the game, WvW fails miserably at that. Which is why you had GvG in this game, because WvW basically fails to provide challenge in most encounters. And is also why most have left the game / barely play anymore.

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭

    The comments in favour of no downstate usually come from stealth classes and those that can almost instantly down players using cheese broken mechanics. Then they try and justify this by saying something about zergs or other fights.

    Downstate is fine, given the various mechanics of the game as they are now.

    I'd happily see it removed when some classes can't macro chain 4-7 skills in 0.25 seconds and no skill can do more than 10-20% of your max health and you can't lose more than 20% of your HP a second- but that would a complete rework of all skills and boons and heals and make fights much longer and much more fun, so it isn't going to happen.

  • UmbraNoctis.1907UmbraNoctis.1907 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2019

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    You know the funny thing is better players are better at handling downstate, years ago you just had to watch the 4 or 5 PvP teams who could actually really play this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) and see how they handled rezzes/stomps compared to the rest of the PvP teams (let alone WvW players), down state increases the rather low skill cap of this game.

    Handling downstate in a 5vs5 conquest match and having to deal with downstate in an outnumbered fight in WvW are 2 completely different things. It is a matter of skill in an even numbered fight, yes, but once numbers become uneven, it highly favours the side with more players, even more so if one side only consists of 1 player. And mechanics that favour numbers are hardly a way to increase the skill cap.
    That being said, downstate has been in the game since forever and it isn't going away, so discussing about it is moot.
    (And even for a solo player downstate has some positive sides, so i wouldn't want it to completely go away, though i would welcome nerfs to downstate dmg and res speed).

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

    Downed state becomes a crutch in out manned fights,whats this inability of not understanding the underlying issue here ? If only you do is gank and rely on downed state yourself,i can see why.

    There is no underlying issue. Virtually every mechanic in the game favours a larger group over a smaller one, perhaps we should remove boon sharing, AOE/group heals, barrier, etc because they are "crutches" for larger groups. Or maybe some people could just grasp the basis of balance in a game is even numbers and that the lack of even numbers in WvW is just one of the many reasons no one sensible takes it seriously.

    Its about people going Down several times in a fight when fighting outmanned,but one touch resses and rallies being the factor of them still winning.Not because they have more people,not because theyre better,but because theyre getting carried and can go down 4x In one minute.Where finishing off is slower than a guy instantly ressing as the same time you finish.And cleaving in those fights makes you waste time and or utilities you also need to keep on fighting the rest.

    Only if you roam,which somehow alot of people are preaching to do, you will know this issue.But alot of people dont actually roam,unless you think running with 10 to jump on 2 people is roaming while still going down in the meanwhile..Then sure.

    Theres no sensible reason to defend such a crappy "keep the casual players happy" mechanic in its current state unless it favors your side.

    Also some people play for a challenge,not easy lootbags with 3x more numbers behind them.Must be hard to understand right.

    i mean i do understand your point, but i see it problematic that you try to argue here with a moral highground that can aswell be used against you.

    WvW has huge teamsizes wich inevitably create encounters with an enormous gap in experience and i do think the mode has to provide options for less experienced players to not just be fodder. superior numbers + downedstate does that. it does not 'keep the casual players happy', because the only thing it might do is keep them alive, but they wont kill that more experienced roamer unless that roamer overcommits, they still often be more than just annoyed. and roamers still can win outnumbered fights frequently with current downedstate.
    sure one can make changes to downedstate and make it more punishing, but it has its purpose and just shouting 'you noobs just want to get carried' , wont really get a discussion about it going.

    Im not asking for the removal of downed state,i know it has its place.A nerf however to the rally system/the hp in downed state/the res speed/and quickness having effect on finishing again would make things a bit more fair.Able to go down 4x in a minute is just too much.Im not saying noobs wanna get carried though,but this is something that has been said multiple times in the last few years now and still anet decides to do nothing besides having some no downed state event week.Downed state works perfectly fine in pvp and pve,in wvw its just a whole other story.

  • Caedmon.6798Caedmon.6798 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @zinkz.7045 said:

    @Caedmon.6798 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    If you downed an opponent and cannot finished it off, you lost. End of story. Why should you get a sigil to compensate for your inability to press F ?
    I said we get a sigil for instant rez instead. cos your post sound like a troll.

    Downed state becomes a crutch in out manned fights,whats this inability of not understanding the underlying issue here ? If only you do is gank and rely on downed state yourself,i can see why.

    There is no underlying issue. Virtually every mechanic in the game favours a larger group over a smaller one, perhaps we should remove boon sharing, AOE/group heals, barrier, etc because they are "crutches" for larger groups. Or maybe some people could just grasp the basis of balance in a game is even numbers and that the lack of even numbers in WvW is just one of the many reasons no one sensible takes it seriously.

    Its about people going Down several times in a fight when fighting outmanned,but one touch resses and rallies being the factor of them still winning.Not because they have more people,not because theyre better,but because theyre getting carried and can go down 4x In one minute.Where finishing off is slower than a guy instantly ressing as the same time you finish.And cleaving in those fights makes you waste time and or utilities you also need to keep on fighting the rest.

    You know the funny thing is better players are better at handling downstate, years ago you just had to watch the 4 or 5 PvP teams who could actually really play this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) and see how they handled rezzes/stomps compared to the rest of the PvP teams (let alone WvW players), down state increases the rather low skill cap of this game.

    As for getting carried, again it is no different to pretty much every other mechanic in the game in that it favours a larger group. E.G - if you try and 1v3 then you not only have to go through the player's heals, blocks, etc that you are focusing, but the barriers, heals, cleanses, reflects, protection, etc they get from the other two that "carry" them.

    Furthermore if you want to talk about getting carried in WvW, then that game mode is virtually ignored for balancing means playing whatever is the most broken cheese carries so, so hard. And let's not even go into how this supposed "action" combat game carries people mechanically by aiming for them.

    Theres no sensible reason to defend such a crappy "keep the casual players happy" mechanic in its current state unless it favors your side.

    Actually the only sensible outlook to WvW is to treat it casually, it lacks all the things you need for competitive PvP, you are trying to bang a square peg into a round hole.

    Also some people play for a challenge,not easy lootbags with 3x more numbers behind them.Must be hard to understand right.

    The only thing hard to understand is why anyone would play WvW for challenge when as a skilled, competitive PvP game it is a complete joke, this is a game where a guy who has played thousands of hours can show his "skill" by 1v1'ing a guy who has played a month, or where a guild on Discord, playing full cheese tryhard comp, can show their "skill" against some PvDoor commander with half the players not in squad let alone TS/Discord, running let's say a variety of builds.

    The basis for challenge (and indeed fun) in PvP games is to have your opponents around the same level of experience, skill, etc with a similar attitude to the game, WvW fails miserably at that. Which is why you had GvG in this game, because WvW basically fails to provide challenge in most encounters. And is also why most have left the game / barely play anymore.

    The thing is gw2 just has the most fluid most reactive combat from all mmo's currently out there,it just all works eventhough unbalanced as it currently might be.I dropped doing pvp seriously a long time ago,i just think wvw could be in a better place and something being done to downed state could seriously help that where roamers have a better chance to try something bigger and maybe people will actually try to roam instead of only blobbing.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UmbraNoctis.1907 said:
    And mechanics that favour numbers are hardly a way to increase the skill cap.

    Agreed, lets start deleting players instead of downed state. I met this spellbreaker the other day that I couldnt even touch 1v1 and when they fought me 1v3 it was obviously never going happen. How do you report players for being unfair mechanics?

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