Where you think GW2 goes next? (spoilers)

[Nova.7261]

Taimi is dyingAurene is defeatedPrimodius and Jormag are at risk of waking upThe sea dragon has not been introduced.

Gliders gave a player mobilityMounts gave improved mobility and engagement attack

Neither of these increase a player's power during a fight. But in this line of thinking its

1. Mobility - Gliders
2. Mobility+ / Engagement - Mounts
3. Mobility++ / Engagement+ / ??? - Vehicles?

Two aspects of the game that haven't changed in a long while are Fractals and Waterplay. Fractals has good rewards, but isn't really tied into the overall guildwars 2 storyline. Waterplay people just hate in general, as a vast majority of players just don't like how swimming works.

I'm guessing the sea dragon would be released next. Fire and Ice seem like dragons that should be released together, and releasing 2 dragons before releasing one does not seem like an escalation. This is assuming the elder dragons are all evenly matched, and that the sea dragon isn't an alpha dragon god who never wakes up, save armageddon (Its possible if the GW2 universe doesn't expand to find a race with powers to rival elder dragons).

Anyways, I'm guessing vehicles are the next thing since their concept is pretty simple like mounts and gliders. They fill mobility and engagement, though I'm not sure what third niche they would bring in. They all allow area and content access/ unlock, those are passive. Mobility and engagement are both active abilities that help fights, either by getting you there or getting you started. What would be a third ability that doesn't activate during a fight or help you start it? I'm guessing fight isolation, letting you fight just one enemy, or a momentum mechanic, where killing something gives you temporary power which I don't like because it really pushes up a players continuous battle power. With Taimi dying, you'd likely get her golem as the first vehicle.

Another theory is seeking help outside tyria, like outspace. They Glory of tyria was an amazing piece of art in the fight against zytan, I'm sure a lot of people want it in some form for their guild to use.There is a little hint that Chalk might not of come from maguuma jungle and with how different they are when compared to other lifeform of tyria... Maybe they are aliens? I'm doubting this though, cause its just way too big a can of worms to open. Like... Space? That would be a scenario for starting GW3 and GW2 is still going strong so as to not need that. But yah, space and time manipulation definitely would revamp fractals, while controlling gravity fufills the mobility, engagement, and 3rd trait.

( Of Darkness Ascending - ODA ) Vehicles > Revamp water mechanics and add a number of things you'd expect a personal airship, car or submarine to do.

( Lost Astral Planes - LAP )Space, Time, and Gravity > Revamp Fractals and add a twisted method of playing your character where you bend reality. I'd really like to see a temporal mastery, that slows down you and the enemies around you to fight bosses which you would normally need an apm of 300 to fight reliably. It doesn't make a fight any different, it just makes the fight rely less on reaction time. The point of new content in GW2 is to make the game more interesting and convenient, but not in a way that gives a player more combat power.

Just some playful fun and a best guess. Its based on a story where the protagonist is always in a hopeless situation with no hope of winning and who must always be pioneering into the dangerous unknown. Can't be a hero unless its a hero's scenario. Help me obi-one, you're my only hope... Yadda yadda.

Its a story, and stories have rules if you want your readers to take interest in them.

[Michram.6853]

I secretly hope for the Pale Tree to step in, but all I want is to not have Season 3's finale 2.0. Please Do not introduce Anise and Kryta in the finale!

I hope for the confirmation of my theory that Joko was actually using the Staff of the Mists, and it will be Livia who confirms it because she wields the Scepter of Orr.

The reason why I think Joko used this artefact is because he actually could command the dead and he could trap the spirits of his Awakened inside of them as he wants. Also Joko saying that he entered the Mists with Balthazar to get more spirits from the Mists, so I guess his Staff was capable to do so.

Also I think Joko was never immortal and Aurene only consumed some low quality lich magic, not magic that gives immortality, there is no such a thing, and certainly Joko wouldnt scream like a baby if he could just restore himself out of Aurene's teeth. I doubt Joko's death will be that meaningful, and it was left for us as a false path. Joko fooled us, was playing a role as an actor, I think his power came from the Staff itself or he was doing Abaddon's bidding all along with the Staff of the Mists in his hand.

[Orimidu.9604]

@Arden.7480 said:I secretly hope for the Pale Tree to step in, but all I want is to not have Season 3's finale 2.0. Please Do not introduce Anise and Kryta in the finale!

I hope for the confirmation of my theory that Joko was actually using the Staff of the Mists, and it will be Livia who confirms it because she wields the Scepter of Orr.

The reason why I think Joko used this artefact is because he actually could command the dead and he could trap the spirits of his Awakened inside of them as he wants. Also Joko saying that he entered the Mists with Balthazar to get more spirits from the Mists, so I guess his Staff was capable to do so.

Also I think Joko was never immortal and Aurene only consumed some low quality lich magic, not magic that gives immortality, there is no such a thing, and certainly Joko wouldnt scream like a baby if he could just restore himself out of Aurene's teeth. I doubt Joko's death will be that meaningful, and it was left for us as a false path. Joko fooled us, was playing a role as an actor, I think his power came from the Staff itself or he was doing Abaddon's bidding all along with the Staff of the Mists in his hand.

The wiki page for the Scepter of Orr states that the Staff of the Mists was destroyed, although there is no reference to when that happened. The GW1 mission Cold Touch of the Past doesn't mention the staff being destroyed either.

[Tyson.5160]

@Orimidu.9604 said:

@"Arden.7480" said:I secretly hope for the Pale Tree to step in, but all I want is to not have Season 3's finale 2.0. Please Do not introduce Anise and Kryta in the finale!

I hope for the confirmation of my theory that Joko was actually using the Staff of the Mists, and it will be Livia who confirms it because she wields the Scepter of Orr.

The reason why I think Joko used this artefact is because he actually could command the dead and he could trap the spirits of his Awakened inside of them as he wants. Also Joko saying that he entered the Mists with Balthazar to get more spirits from the Mists, so I guess his Staff was capable to do so.

Also I think Joko was never immortal and Aurene only consumed some low quality lich magic, not magic that gives immortality, there is no such a thing, and certainly Joko wouldnt scream like a baby if he could just restore himself out of Aurene's teeth. I doubt Joko's death will be that meaningful, and it was left for us as a false path. Joko fooled us, was playing a role as an actor, I think his power came from the Staff itself or he was doing Abaddon's bidding all along with the Staff of the Mists in his hand.

The wiki page for the Scepter of Orr states that the Staff of the Mists was destroyed, although there is no reference to when that happened. The GW1 mission Cold Touch of the Past doesn't mention the staff being destroyed either.

I think you destroy it in the quest, don’t you? If memory serves me correctly.

Update: yeah it gets destroyed.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Hallowed_Point

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

In regards to mechanics, I'm doubtful it'd be a further extension of mobility because that would just be reinventing the wheel at this point, and risk making mounts obsolete. I doubt that future masteries will ever be focused around "increase a player's power during a fight" because we had such before with HoT beta and they were all removed. The closest that was kept was seeing stealthed foes and getting that special skill. Both of which have gone the wayside by now. Unless it's about underwater mobility, then it'd have to focus on something else, something that gives players a good benefit, can be friendly throughout the game, and doesn't negate gliding or mounts. Like build templates.

As for lore, I've said it elsewhere: With Kralkatorrik's death, I believe we're going to have a multi-plot narrative come up, similar to Season 3. This one will focus on the two major plots of replacements for Z and M as well as a rise in charr going against the peace treaty, and the end of the season will likely focus on the rising threat of the deep sea dragon. I don't think they'll bring Jormag and Primordus back until the end.

The plot for replacements for Z and M will focus around Malyck, which we were told last April they were beginning to draft a story for, and the Pale Tree's unanswered origins, ending with one of the trees becoming a proper replacement for Mordremoth. This will be a spread out but ultimately straightforward subplot, meant to just tie up loose threads left by HoT. Would likely include the origins/nature of the Dream, and what happened to the Nightmare Court post-HoT as well.

The plot for the charr-human treaty will begin with us finally reversing the Foefire curse using Sohothin and a at-long-last reforged Magdaer; with Requiem: Rytlock, he will finally be giving up Sohothin and it will be used (and broken) alongside Magdaer and the crown in the ritual to completely undo the curse (either performed by Logan or by Wade Samuelsson). This will cause the number of threats that sparked the charr's need for a peace treaty to become so low (Flame Legion, ghosts, and branded will be gone, leaving just humans and ogres), an increasing number of charr (backed by Bangar in the end, who got a spotlight in Requiem: Rytlock and hates humans and the treaty) will become opposed to furthering the treaty.

There will be one or two maps in the Maguuma, filling the two real gaps we got (south of Dry Top, south of Metrica) and maybe one in Ring of Fire since that's where a bunch of Mordremoth and Zhaitan magic went, while we'll see the remaining ones heading eastward into and beyond the Blazeridge towards the Blood Citadel.

If the season is 6 episodes like 3 and 4, then like Season 3 and first half of Season 4 it will feel horribly rushed. But if they give it 9 then it'll be nicely paced.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Arden.7480 said:I secretly hope for the Pale Tree to step in, but all I want is to not have Season 3's finale 2.0. Please Do not introduce Anise and Kryta in the finale!

I hope for the confirmation of my theory that Joko was actually using the Staff of the Mists, and it will be Livia who confirms it because she wields the Scepter of Orr.

The reason why I think Joko used this artefact is because he actually could command the dead and he could trap the spirits of his Awakened inside of them as he wants. Also Joko saying that he entered the Mists with Balthazar to get more spirits from the Mists, so I guess his Staff was capable to do so.

Also I think Joko was never immortal and Aurene only consumed some low quality lich magic, not magic that gives immortality, there is no such a thing, and certainly Joko wouldnt scream like a baby if he could just restore himself out of Aurene's teeth. I doubt Joko's death will be that meaningful, and it was left for us as a false path. Joko fooled us, was playing a role as an actor, I think his power came from the Staff itself or he was doing Abaddon's bidding all along with the Staff of the Mists in his hand.

Immortality doesn't make one exempt from pain, and we got Joko's staff which is 100% not the Staff of the Mists as they existed at the same time, in very different appearances, in GW1. Plus the Staff of the Mists was destroyed at the Hollow Point while we retrieved Joko's staff from some random general of his. Plus, Joko was not the first to be immortal - Khilbron and The Hunter are also immortal in GW1, Khilbron dying by a similar method as Joko's death: his magic was unbound, the spell that kept him alive broken. And the magic being unbound is why Joko could never restore himself out of Aurene's teeth.

As to Aurene eating it... Elder Dragons only gain the abilities of those connected to domains of magic like Elder Dragons and (former) gods. Normal beings don't have that connection, and while powerful, Joko was ultimately a normal being.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

I'm thinking Charr Homeland. The death of Kralkatorrik should dramatically alter the Charr's foreign policy as the threat of the Brand is one, if not the primary, reason they sought peace with humanity.

Oh also I think Cantha will have been destroyed by the Deep Sea Dragon, because Oooh Big Threat!

[Cerioth.7062]

I hope charr homeland.

[Nova.7261]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In regards to mechanics, I'm doubtful it'd be a further extension of mobility because that would just be reinventing the wheel at this point, and risk making mounts obsolete. I doubt that future masteries will ever be focused around "increase a player's power during a fight" because we had such before with HoT beta and they were all removed. The closest that was kept was seeing stealthed foes and getting that special skill. Both of which have gone the wayside by now. Unless it's about underwater mobility, then it'd have to focus on something else, something that gives players a good benefit, can be friendly throughout the game, and doesn't negate gliding or mounts. Like build templates.

As for lore, I've said it elsewhere: With Kralkatorrik's death, I believe we're going to have a multi-plot narrative come up, similar to Season 3. This one will focus on the two major plots of replacements for Z and M as well as a rise in charr going against the peace treaty, and the end of the season will likely focus on the rising threat of the deep sea dragon. I don't think they'll bring Jormag and Primordus back until the end.

The plot for replacements for Z and M will focus around Malyck, which we were told last April they were beginning to draft a story for, and the Pale Tree's unanswered origins, ending with one of the trees becoming a proper replacement for Mordremoth. This will be a spread out but ultimately straightforward subplot, meant to just tie up loose threads left by HoT. Would likely include the origins/nature of the Dream, and what happened to the Nightmare Court post-HoT as well.

The plot for the charr-human treaty will begin with us finally reversing the Foefire curse using Sohothin and a at-long-last reforged Magdaer; with Requiem: Rytlock, he will finally be giving up Sohothin and it will be used (and broken) alongside Magdaer and the crown in the ritual to completely undo the curse (either performed by Logan or by Wade Samuelsson). This will cause the number of threats that sparked the charr's need for a peace treaty to become so low (Flame Legion, ghosts, and branded will be gone, leaving just humans and ogres), an increasing number of charr (backed by Bangar in the end, who got a spotlight in Requiem: Rytlock and hates humans and the treaty) will become opposed to furthering the treaty.

There will be one or two maps in the Maguuma, filling the two real gaps we got (south of Dry Top, south of Metrica) and maybe one in Ring of Fire since that's where a bunch of Mordremoth and Zhaitan magic went, while we'll see the remaining ones heading eastward into and beyond the Blazeridge towards the Blood Citadel.

If the season is 6 episodes like 3 and 4, then like Season 3 and first half of Season 4 it will feel horribly rushed. But if they give it 9 then it'll be nicely paced.

It would make sense for things to go towards mechanized though. You can mechanize gliders and mounts, and its not like griffons, raptors, and manta rays, can fight effectively in the air, ground, and sea.

Its just easier to implement then other things. And fyi, the griffon is WAY faster then a glider but that didn't make the glider obsolete. The griffon still can not use updraft, stealth, and other bloodstone skills.

I would expect the airship to be faster then the glider and griffon but would likely not have the engagement ability and would need to land before disembarking. Jumping off your airship without your glider = not a good thing... Your ship would crash. Perhaps you need a certain amount of map contribution to call one out on a map so that 100 don't show up at once. It would kinda be like the commander tag, that has a limited number of uses on a map (can't have two tags of the same colour).

Maybe airships can be a home instance that shares nodes with your racial home, allowing you to access your nodes from everywhere to not interrupt your play.

A real life example is a car trying to replace a horse. A car needs fossil fuel that first needs to be mined and processed, a horse needs carrots and hay. A car take resources/parts from all over the world to build it, horses are born and raised locally (you don't mail order a horse's leg to make one). Most cars don't enjoy going over rocks, horses are quadrapeds. Cars are machines built explicitly for transportation, horses have a brain and work with their rider for tasks outside of simple movement (they are excellent trackers with better hearing then humans). Cars are faster, but horses have never been considered slow. So in this example, a car can mostly replace a horse but it needs an entire industry behind it to do so, where as horses live off the land. Relating this to GW2, I'd expect to expend some form of resource to use vehicles where as mounts could be used freely as they were before. The resource would just be a matter of something that requires gold, or participation.

[Randulf.7614]

The charr peace treaty breaking down is an interesting one

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:I'm thinking Charr Homeland. The death of Kralkatorrik should dramatically alter the Charr's foreign policy as the threat of the Brand is one, if not the primary, reason they sought peace with humanity.

Oh also I think Cantha will have been destroyed by the Deep Sea Dragon, because Oooh Big Threat!

I'm not sure the death of Kralkatorrik will impact the threat of the Brand much at all. The last time we got a look in at Orr, Zhaitan had been gone for five years and the Risen situation hadn't much improved. If the same happens with the Brand, then the best that could be said is that new Branded might cease to be made, in which case a concerted (and costly) effort might be able to wipe them out in the charr territories over the course of a few years. Given the kind of casualties the Sentinels are taking just holding the edges, though, it'd require putting more manpower towards the problem, not less.

[Nova.7261]

@Randulf.7614 said:The charr peace treaty breaking down is an interesting one

It sounds more like a subplot or mini arc then a driving factor though.

[Randulf.7614]

@Nova.7261 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:The charr peace treaty breaking down is an interesting one

It sounds more like a subplot or mini arc then a driving factor though.

I agree. I think the seasons are better suited to smaller stories though so that would work well

[Bast.7253]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Arden.7480 said:I secretly hope for the Pale Tree to step in, but all I want is to not have Season 3's finale 2.0. Please Do not introduce Anise and Kryta in the finale!

I hope for the confirmation of my theory that Joko was actually using the Staff of the Mists, and it will be Livia who confirms it because she wields the Scepter of Orr.

The reason why I think Joko used this artefact is because he actually could command the dead and he could trap the spirits of his Awakened inside of them as he wants. Also Joko saying that he entered the Mists with Balthazar to get more spirits from the Mists, so I guess his Staff was capable to do so.

Also I think Joko was never immortal and Aurene only consumed some low quality lich magic, not magic that gives immortality, there is no such a thing, and certainly Joko wouldnt scream like a baby if he could just restore himself out of Aurene's teeth. I doubt Joko's death will be that meaningful, and it was left for us as a false path. Joko fooled us, was playing a role as an actor, I think his power came from the Staff itself or he was doing Abaddon's bidding all along with the Staff of the Mists in his hand.

Immortality doesn't make one exempt from pain, and we got Joko's staff which is 100% not the Staff of the Mists as they existed at the same time, in very different appearances, in GW1. Plus the Staff of the Mists was destroyed at the Hollow Point while we retrieved Joko's staff from some random general of his. Plus, Joko was not the first to be immortal - Khilbron and The Hunter are also immortal in GW1, Khilbron dying by a similar method as Joko's death: his magic was unbound, the spell that kept him alive broken. And the magic being unbound is why Joko could never restore himself out of Aurene's teeth.

As to Aurene eating it... Elder Dragons only gain the abilities of those connected to domains of magic like Elder Dragons and (former) gods. Normal beings don't have that connection, and while powerful, Joko was ultimately a normal being.

We don't really know what kind of magic Joko had or where he got it from though. So while Joko himself may have been an ordinary human, the magic that made him capable of what he did hasn't ever been explicitly stated to be normal lich magic.

And reading from the lost scrolls which were hidden by the six, caused the cataclysm and created a lich. So, the lost scrolls being related to the gods meant that god magic was used to create a lich. Joko, who had to die a similar death to Khilibron, could presumably have only been made a lich with god magic. Making whatever Aurene consumed some remnant of said god magic. Though, arguably, as the wiki states, we don't really know that the lost scrolls were god magic or even their origin. But in that case, we have a third kind of special magic with no known origin. If Khilibron and Joko achieved Lichdom using this same form of unknown magic, and we know that Joko's magic is capable of awakening Sylvari, then we don't really know what impact it could have on a dragon that consumed it.

Ruling Joko's magic out isn't really a possibility at this point. Given we only know a little more about his timeline with the latest Halloween texts, and not how he actually became a lich. He abandoned his necromancy teachings to pursue a different path, and that path is what led to him becoming a lich. Given that we don't know the full extent of that path or what it involved, his magic and history can't really be ruled out.

Ruling anything out at this point, seems pretty futile. Because as much research as you do, as much citation as you seed into a post, the writers can still take it whatever direction they want and find a way to make it fit. shrug

But in terms of this specific point, ruling out Joko as being just an ordinary human lich with some advanced understanding of Necromancy that somehow makes him unkillable unless killed similarly to Khilibron who became a Lichdom via some unknown ancient magic even the Gods wanted locked away, seems a little misguided.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Onward to the edgeWe're moving onward to the edgeHere we are togetherThis fragile little world

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Nova.7261 said:It would make sense for things to go towards mechanized though. You can mechanize gliders and mounts, and its not like griffons, raptors, and manta rays, can fight effectively in the air, ground, and sea.

I think ArenaNet's made it fairly clear they don't want to introduce new means of combat other than elite specializations and situational-based like the special skill slot.

Besides, there aren't any air fights in the first place. Thus, as I said, the only thing we're lacking is mobility for underwater. That's more likely to be tied to a DSD expansion though.

Its just easier to implement then other things. And fyi, the griffon is WAY faster then a glider but that didn't make the glider obsolete. The griffon still can not use updraft, stealth, and other bloodstone skills.

TBH, Gliding is obsolete once you get griffon. Unless you're in Bloodstone Fen. Griffon can't use updraft, but you can dive and ascend pretty easily. And gliding's stealth is pure shit level obsolete tbh. The only real benefit that gliding has over griffon outside Bloodstone Fen would be more precise maneuverability due to lower speed.

As for your other comparison... ArenaNet would never go into such maintenance requirements for expansion selling points. If anything, that argument counts against yours IMO.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:We don't really know what kind of magic Joko had or where he got it from though. So while Joko himself may have been an ordinary human, the magic that made him capable of what he did hasn't ever been explicitly stated to be normal lich magic.

And reading from the lost scrolls which were hidden by the six, caused the cataclysm and created a lich. So, the lost scrolls being related to the gods meant that god magic was used to create a lich. Joko, who had to die a similar death to Khilibron, could presumably have only been made a lich with god magic. Making whatever Aurene consumed some remnant of said god magic. Though, arguably, as the wiki states, we don't really know that the lost scrolls were god magic or even their origin. But in that case, we have a third kind of special magic with no known origin. If Khilibron and Joko achieved Lichdom using this same form of unknown magic, and we know that Joko's magic is capable of awakening Sylvari, then we don't really know what impact it could have on a dragon that consumed it.

Ruling Joko's magic out isn't really a possibility at this point. Given we only know a little more about his timeline with the latest Halloween texts, and not how he actually became a lich. He abandoned his necromancy teachings to pursue a different path, and that path is what led to him becoming a lich. Given that we don't know the full extent of that path or what it involved, his magic and history can't really be ruled out.

Ruling anything out at this point, seems pretty futile. Because as much research as you do, as much citation as you seed into a post, the writers can still take it whatever direction they want and find a way to make it fit. shrug

But in terms of this specific point, ruling out Joko as being just an ordinary human lich with some advanced understanding of Necromancy that somehow makes him unkillable unless killed similarly to Khilibron who became a Lichdom via some unknown ancient magic even the Gods wanted locked away, seems a little misguided.

Firstly, we don't have confirmation that Khilbron was made a lich by the Lost Scrolls, in technicality. Given that Khilbron made The Hunter just as immortal with his magic without a Cataclysm-like event would indicate that the Lost Scrolls was not responsible for Khilbron's lichdom, in fact.

But to the important topic: We don't really need to know where Joko's magic came from, in the end Joko is but a human made undead and nigh immortal with a powerful spell. We see Zhaitan, Jormag, Primordus, Mordremoth, and even Kralkatorrik - be it directly or through minions - consume magic not of their own domain. Yet not once do they utilize these magics they consumed. Like Balthazar never using Ice magic or whatever magic came from the Maguuma Bloodstone but only ever used fire and war related magic, the Elder Dragons too merely seem to warp the consumed magic into their own domain.

Elder Dragons have only gained the powers from the magic taken from those who had a direct connection to domains of magic - other Elder Dragons and (former) gods. And Joko is no such being.

And thus, because Joko is no such being, there is zero reason why Aurene would gain the ability to utilize the magic that makes nigh immortality like what Joko, Khilbron, and The Hunter had.

How Joko became a lich is irrelevant. What's relevant is merely whether or not he is connected to a domain of magic. And he is not. For despite all his boasting, he is no god. And he certainly is no Elder Dragon.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Nova.7261 said:It would make sense for things to go towards mechanized though. You can mechanize gliders and mounts, and its not like griffons, raptors, and manta rays, can fight effectively in the air, ground, and sea.

I think ArenaNet's made it fairly clear they don't want to introduce new means of combat other than elite specializations and situational-based like the special skill slot.

Besides, there aren't any air fights in the first place. Thus, as I said, the only thing we're lacking is mobility for underwater. That's more likely to be tied to a DSD expansion though.

Its just easier to implement then other things. And fyi, the griffon is WAY faster then a glider but that didn't make the glider obsolete. The griffon still can not use updraft, stealth, and other bloodstone skills.

TBH, Gliding

is

obsolete once you get griffon. Unless you're in Bloodstone Fen. Griffon can't use updraft, but you can dive and ascend pretty easily. And gliding's stealth is pure kitten level obsolete tbh. The only real benefit that gliding has over griffon outside Bloodstone Fen would be more precise maneuverability due to lower speed.

As for your other comparison... ArenaNet would never go into such maintenance requirements for expansion selling points. If anything, that argument counts against yours IMO.

@"cptaylor.2670" said:We don't really know what kind of magic Joko had or where he got it from though. So while Joko himself may have been an ordinary human, the magic that made him capable of what he did hasn't ever been explicitly stated to be normal lich magic.

And reading from the lost scrolls which were hidden by the six, caused the cataclysm and created a lich. So, the lost scrolls being related to the gods meant that god magic was used to create a lich. Joko, who had to die a similar death to Khilibron, could presumably have only been made a lich with god magic. Making whatever Aurene consumed some remnant of said god magic. Though, arguably, as the wiki states, we don't really know that the lost scrolls were god magic or even their origin. But in that case, we have a third kind of special magic with no known origin. If Khilibron and Joko achieved Lichdom using this same form of unknown magic, and we know that Joko's magic is capable of awakening Sylvari, then we don't really know what impact it could have on a dragon that consumed it.

Ruling Joko's magic out isn't really a possibility at this point. Given we only know a little more about his timeline with the latest Halloween texts, and not how he actually became a lich. He abandoned his necromancy teachings to pursue a different path, and that path is what led to him becoming a lich. Given that we don't know the full extent of that path or what it involved, his magic and history can't really be ruled out.

Ruling anything out at this point, seems pretty futile. Because as much research as you do, as much citation as you seed into a post, the writers can still take it whatever direction they want and find a way to make it fit.

shrug

But in terms of this specific point, ruling out Joko as being just an ordinary human lich with some advanced understanding of Necromancy that somehow makes him unkillable unless killed similarly to Khilibron who became a Lichdom via some unknown ancient magic even the Gods wanted locked away, seems a little misguided.

Firstly, we don't have confirmation that Khilbron was made a lich by the Lost Scrolls, in technicality. Given that

Khilbron made The Hunter

just

as immortal with his magic

without a Cataclysm-like event would indicate that the Lost Scrolls was not responsible for Khilbron's lichdom, in fact.

But to the important topic: We don't really need to know where Joko's magic came from, in the end Joko is but a human made undead and nigh immortal with a powerful spell. We see Zhaitan, Jormag, Primordus, Mordremoth, and even Kralkatorrik - be it directly or through minions - consume magic not of their own domain. Yet not once do they utilize these magics they consumed. Like Balthazar never using Ice magic or whatever magic came from the Maguuma Bloodstone but only ever used fire and war related magic, the Elder Dragons too merely seem to warp the consumed magic into their own domain.

Elder Dragons have only gained the powers from the magic taken from those who had a direct connection to domains of magic - other Elder Dragons and (former) gods. And Joko is no such being.

And thus, because Joko is no such being, there is zero reason why Aurene would gain the ability to utilize the magic that makes nigh immortality like what Joko, Khilbron, and The Hunter had.

How Joko became a lich is irrelevant. What's relevant is merely whether or not he is connected to a domain of magic. And he is not. For despite all his boasting, he is no god. And he certainly is no Elder Dragon.

Kinda makes you wonder whether Zhaitan absorbed any magic from Abaddon or the other gods from some of the Orrian artifacts. It never shows it and I doubt it happened, but if Kralkatorrik was able to consume magic from Balthazar and gained mist walker abilities, seems kinda curious that in theory Zhaitan should of been consuming some sort of god magic, when corrupting Orr. Maybe the amount of god magic was negligible.

[Poormany.4507]

@Nova.7261 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:The charr peace treaty breaking down is an interesting one

It sounds more like a subplot or mini arc then a driving factor though.

I can see them fitting in a Charr civil war plotline in with an elder dragon's storyline like they fit in Joko's story arc with Kralk's, since the two would be related.

I think next map will probably be Blood Legion Homelands or Kralk's Mountain based on the story direction. I think the season ending will either be getting Aurene back or killing Kralk and watching the destruction of the world around us, leading to season 5. Also think another elder dragon(s) will become involved in season 5, leading to the next expac.

Mechanics wise, I don't really see vehicles as becoming a thing other than mount skins, since mounts already have the necessary navigational skills. Since they said that they won't focus on old masteries for new expacs, I'm expecting we'll get an underwater and maybe another mount next season. Currently, I see underwater mechanics as the obvious next major expansion step, with possibly a real fully customizable player housing system (i.e. not Sun's Refuge) being added as a side feature, since it seemed like Sun's Refuge was an initial attempt (not counting home instances) and a lot of the technicality already exists in guildhalls.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Tyson.5160 said:Kinda makes you wonder whether Zhaitan absorbed any magic from Abaddon or the other gods from some of the Orrian artifacts. It never shows it and I doubt it happened, but if Kralkatorrik was able to consume magic from Balthazar and gained mist walker abilities, seems kinda curious that in theory Zhaitan should of been consuming some sort of god magic, when corrupting Orr. Maybe the amount of god magic was negligible.

Zhaitan never consumed magic from a slain god though, and he doesn't show any magic but his own. That's kind of my point.

[Michram.6853]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 I see.

[Tyson.5160]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Kinda makes you wonder whether Zhaitan absorbed any magic from Abaddon or the other gods from some of the Orrian artifacts. It never shows it and I doubt it happened, but if Kralkatorrik was able to consume magic from Balthazar and gained mist walker abilities, seems kinda curious that in theory Zhaitan should of been consuming some sort of god magic, when corrupting Orr. Maybe the amount of god magic was negligible.

Zhaitan never consumed magic from a slain god though, and he doesn't show any magic but his own. That's kind of my point.

The only thing that comes to mind is the powerful artifact at the end of Temple of the a Forgotten God, which may or may not have magic imbued directly from Abaddon, it’s assumed that the mouth consumes it, but we never find out what it is. I would imagine it was a very important artifact, due to its location at the heart of the temple. Does the artifact contain Abaddon’s power much like Solhothin does with Balthazar, hard to say. It does make for interesting speculation.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

The point is even if artifacts had magic directly from the Gods, they did not have magic intrinsic to the Gods themselves as beings (The power to enter, traverse and exit the Mists at will being the most visible one), thus the Dragons could not replicate that magic because it is just magic to them that is consumed and turned into their respective signature magics.

[Bast.7253]

It's kind of silly to think of an artifact imbued with a god's powers not granting something that consumed the artifact the properties of those powers.

Because, what's the point of imbuing that artifact with your powers if not to give it some property or ability intrinsic to the magic you imbued it with? Just to treat the artifact like somekind of magic battery? I get that it's implied that's what you're saying it is to the elder dragon that consumes it, but what's the point of the god doing that? If it's just to boost someone else's pre-existing abilities, why choose a specific artifact?

We also don't really know what specific power Zhaitan could have gotten from Abaddon or whether he would have even chosen to use it over his current arsenal of spheres.

The bloodstone that exploded obviously didn't grant any of the elder dragons special new abilities or Balthazar new abilities because it was just uncorrupted plain magic. It didn't have any innate properties.

I mean, just because we haven't SEEN any glaring examples of elder dragons absorbing an artifact or some magic of a god-power imbued being, doesn't mean it isn't possible.

For that matter, Balthazar was no longer a god when he died yet he still gave his mist-walking abilities to Aurene and Kralk. Even if he was a former god and converted magic to be like his previous abilities, he was stripped of being a god long before. So how is that any different? Because he was presumably born a deity?

If that's the case, and Kormir was born a human, I assume if she were stripped of her abilities then Kralk wouldn't gain any of her abilities then? Even if she still had the potential to convert magic similarly as Balthazar did? How is Kormir any different than just a living artifact that took in Abaddon's magic? If the gods have the ability to grant her a blessing that allows her to absorb his magic and take over his "domains", is it really safe to assume they couldn't use that similar binding of magic to imbue an artifact with properties of whatever magic they're trying to bind?

I don't know. It feels like there are a lot of assumptions being made based on evidence that has too few occurrences to be considered cold hard fact. At any point the writers could write something that contradicts what's currently known or assumed (which again, is far too little to be a guarantee under any circumstance), and then it just winds up with certain people ranting because their hypothesis didn't pan out the way they wanted it to. Until the game and the story explicitly lays out the rules, it's probably better to assume that anything is possible. And it feels like the writers like to keep as many things as open as possible.

I think the most logical solution for the next episode is to have Aurene come back and we kill Kralk and move on, but they could do anything. We could have interdimensional god-like beings pop out of the mists and scatter magic dust all over Kralk and turn him into a rock. Is it likely? No, but it's not impossible. Just seems futile constantly debating and picking apart posts searching for semantics to correct or dissecting sentence after sentence with citations when everything you think you know could easily change with one episode, and could be explained to fit in a way that you wouldn't have imagined because you were too stuck on your personal interpretation.

But I think sometimes people are more concerned about appearing correct or superior than they are engaging in meaningful conversation. I can imagine it must get pretty exhausting.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:It's kind of silly to think of an artifact imbued with a god's powers not granting something that consumed the artifact the properties of those powers.

Whether you think it is silly or not, we know that this is the case, because Zhaitan gained no such power. That's a simple fact.

Every temple would have had divine artifacts of varying degrees. So by the argument that "consuming an artifact imbued with a god's power would grant the Elder Dragon some degree of those properties", we should thus see the properties of all six gods inside Zhaitan. Yet we know that doesn't occur.

This can extend to literally every type of magic, as no Elder Dragon avoids eating certain types of magic from what we've seen. Jormag consumes Kodan magical artifacts, both holy and none. Primordus ate all sorts of asuran cities. Kralkatorrik even assaulted human temples like Zhaitan (Serenity Temple) and even corrupted Tomb of the Primeval Kings on his flight south, yet it wasn't until he absorbed Balthazar's magic that his own changed.

Sure, it'd give those using the artifact "some property or ability intrinsic to the magic [a god] imbued it with" but that's using the artifact, not consuming it. Consuming artifacts would destroy the artifact, unbind the magic, and absorb the magic. So the Mouth of Zhaitan consuming artifacts is indifferent from just consuming any other magic not in the ley lines.

Former gods would be different from an artifact simply because they're not merely things granted magic. What's comparable to artifacts would be dragon minions in this case. If Primordus were to eat a single risen, would it suddenly gain some of Zhaitan's magic to use and spread across its minions? No. Because we see dragon minions corrupted by others in Subject Alpha and Kudu's Monster, so if that were the case, all five active Elder Dragons near Central Tyria always had a bit of each others' magic, yet not once show it. Even post-Season 3.

So it's clear, given Balthazar, and Dhuum for that matter, that former gods are still connected to their "sphere of influence" or "domain of magic" or whatever you want to call it. Gods and Elder Dragons are on par, and those reduced from that stage remain altered from their original selves, unable to return to what they were originally, and will forever retain a connection to that power which makes them special. Balthazar lost his power that made him a true god, but he was still connected to that domain and capable of converting all magic he absorbed to that domain, just as Elder Dragons convert all magic they consume to their own domain.

(Side Note: the fact that consuming a god's power gives an Elder Dragon that domain's power, furthers the theory that the Six Gods fulfill the same / similar roles as the Elder Dragons for another world, the one that's now presumably destroyed.)

But there'd be no reason for the Elder Dragons to not widely use any magic they've obtained, since they unabashedly abuse the magic they get from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, or Balthazar's deaths. Even if you argue "they didn't think it up until Season 3", well, Primordus wiped out SIX asuran citadel cities, including the Central Transfer Chamber, yet never utilized anything resembling anything but his own, Mordremoth's, and Zhaitan's domains of magic in Season 3. No asura portal like magic at all. Or anything else resembling asura. And if Zhaitan had taken in god magic from artifacts, that too would have passed to Mordremoth and then to Primordus and Kralkatorrik, but once again absolutely no show of it.

This is a case where absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:I think the most logical solution for the next episode is to have Aurene come back and we kill Kralk and move on, but they could do anything. We could have interdimensional god-like beings pop out of the mists and scatter magic dust all over Kralk and turn him into a rock. Is it likely? No, but it's not impossible. Just seems futile constantly debating and picking apart posts searching for semantics to correct or dissecting sentence after sentence with citations when everything you think you know could easily change with one episode, and could be explained to fit in a way that you wouldn't have imagined because you were too stuck on your personal interpretation.

But I think sometimes people are more concerned about appearing correct or superior than they are engaging in meaningful conversation. I can imagine it must get pretty exhausting.

The problem with that line of thinking is that your so-called "meaningful conversations" will never go anywhere, because everything and anything can be countered with "but ArenaNet can add a reason for this to (not) make sense in the very next release!"

Well, by that argument, what's going to happen is that Caithe will go mad with grief and feast on Aurene's corpse and transform thus becoming a dragon herself and will go on to chase Kralkatorrik into the Mists despite being logically far weaker, without visibly killing them, but all will be fine because the magic is no longer building up even though we've been told that The All's imbalance is a more critical issue and magical buildup is merely a visible symptom of that. Oh, and let's not forget how Gaheron Baelfire's soul is gonna come in and stab Taimi with reforged Magdaer after absorbing all the Foefire ghosts. But that'll remain pointless because Taimi will have transferred her consciousness into Blish's golem body so that the two love birds can be together forever in the gut of the ever-fleeing Elder Scardycat Dragon Kralkatorrik.

What, doesn't make sense? No reason for any of that to happen? Well you know it could all easily change with one episode, and could be explained to fit in a way that you wouldn't have imagined because you were too stuck on your personal interpretation.

There's a reason why theories are based off of evidence and testing. Because without that, you can go into such realms of unexpected, random silliness and massive plotholes that you put Gintama to bitter shame.

Can ArenaNet add or change something to make what couldn't feasibly happen, happen? Sure.

But what's the point of theorizing over what's impossible now? Enter that territory, and there won't be any meaningful conversations beyond your own fan-fictions.

People, especially those constantly having their "beloved theories debunked" by established lore, love to proclaim this, that others are "too focused on what lore has established that you forget Anet can change it any moment" but once you go into what ArenaNet can retcon or add that doesn't fit established lore, there's no real point in discussing it because anything can happen or get retconned. Might as well talk about how the skyboxes will turn green and Kralkatorrik will suddenly become a good guy next release.

Meh, I think I've made my point about the silliness of that statement.