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Some fractals become unplayable!!


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some fractals become unplayable!!

  1. Can't see birds in whole graphic mess!!!
  2. they spawn every few seconds!!!
  3. they stay around and re-engage!!! and engage others players in party
  4. REMOVE STUPID BIRDS
  5. Remove all new instabilities, please! i wrote about them all. amek bosses have more armor, more health, but remove all new instabilities, please

@Benjamin Arnold.3457@Gaile Gray.6029@Raymond Lukes.6305

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I agree to a certain point.There should be no birds that hang around only the ones that quickly jump on your head that you can evade away. Also do not let them spawn when you are out of combat. Nothings better than when about to grab a mistlock and boom birds. The birds to feel like they are happening way to often. Not sure what the magic number is there for the refresh but I don't think we are there yet.

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Unplayable? no. To my knowledge there have been no fractal instability combinations that made it impossible for the fractal to be completed.

Not fun? Depending on what we are discussing, I think very much so. Birds in particular keeps coming up in forum posts, and in game party chat, as something that makes playing that fractal not enjoyable. Many comment that they skip fractals where Birds are an instability.

/shrug

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@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:I don't know how birds are supposed to work, but sometimes even if you dodge there are still birds blinding you for the last seconds, or the ones from your teamates hit you too. You add toxic trail or bleeding fire, ... you put faith in RNG to stay alive

Pray to the six and let them guide you. Please grant me enough energy to evade the next attack. haha! We all live to die by that instab combo.

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I would like to see Slippery Slope removed, just because it's anti fun and lacking any counter.I'm fine with the other new instabilities, as they finally add some minor challenge to some Fractals/encounters which previously were boring, as well as introducing mechanical interaction, such as making projectile defense generally more valuable with Bleed Fire, although some combinations at some encounters do get kind of silly, mainly damage and attack speed modifiers on vast amounts of trash mobs.

Birds is annoying, but well, dodge.

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@Catchyfx.5768 said:Some combinations Are hard to pass thru. But keep all of this. Finally little bit challange. Birds Are ok.only thing i dont like on birds Is they Spawn out of combat too So i takes 2sec of your time to kilo then.

really?!with harpies on your back?! 2sec?it took 10min for us 5 to pass all of harpies with birds on uncategorized

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:Unplayable? no. To my knowledge there have been no fractal instability combinations that made it impossible for the fractal to be completed.

really?!combinations?!any instability/dodge thing: when you keep dodging, can't dodge boss. or wait for dodging moment and loose dps...

Not fun? Depending on what we are discussing, I think very much so. Birds in particular keeps coming up in forum posts, and in game party chat, as something that makes playing that fractal not enjoyable. Many comment that they skip fractals where Birds are an instability.

no it's not fun. it frustrating, anoying

challange?! slippery thing on precise moving/jumping: that is "challange"?!!Bleed fire thing in places like urban playground with plenty of adds, like Siren's reefSiren's reef with birds only is unplayable!!!!

Want "challange"? try cm? no?! go raids? no? go in parties of 4? or parties of 3? no? go solo

just don't defend company's mistake

@Benjamin Arnold.3457@Gaile Gray.6029@Raymond Lukes.6305

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@totaloverride.3240 said:

@Catchyfx.5768 said:Some combinations Are hard to pass thru. But keep all of this. Finally little bit challange. Birds Are ok.only thing i dont like on birds Is they Spawn out of combat too So i takes 2sec of your time to kilo then.

really?!with harpies on your back?! 2sec?it took 10min for us 5 to pass all of harpies with birds on uncategorized

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:Unplayable? no. To my knowledge there have been no fractal instability combinations that made it impossible for the fractal to be completed.

really?!combinations?!any instability/dodge thing: when you keep dodging, can't dodge boss. or wait for dodging moment and loose dps...

Not fun? Depending on what we are discussing, I think very much so. Birds in particular keeps coming up in forum posts, and in game party chat, as something that makes playing that fractal not enjoyable. Many comment that they skip fractals where Birds are an instability.

no it's not fun. it frustrating, anoying

challange?! slippery thing on precise moving/jumping: that is "challange"?!!Bleed fire thing in places like urban playground with plenty of adds, like Siren's reefSiren's reef with birds only is unplayable!!!!

Want "challange"? try cm? no?! go raids? no? go in parties of 4? or parties of 3? no? go solo

just don't defend company's mistake

I'm doing CM's daily already, with the new instabilities, just fine.

You can kill the Harpies, or utilize tools like stealth, portals and projectile defense to skip past them. Neither takes 10 minutes, birds or not.

A lot of professions have projectile defense, but if you refuse to adapt and improve, yes, Bleed Fire can be a pain.Bleed Fire of adds doesn't do a lot of direct damage, and the burn can be cleansed after, if there is a lot of them. Bleed fire on bosses should either be dodged, blocked or negated with projectile defense. It has a pretty well designed tell when it's about to happen.Even as DPS without altering your kit you have options to negate it, be it Whirling Defense on a Slb, Shield of Courage on a DH, extra dodges as Daredevil or what have you.If it comes together with Birds, which already eats your dodges, your support, be it Druid, Firebrand, Renegade, Chrono or whatever your are running, needs to learn to negate projectiles. They have the tools, be it direct projectile negation or well timed Aegis.

Not sure how Bird's make Siren's Reef unplayable. The only thing that comes to mind is the treasure part, due to your group not working as a team, chain throwing them to each other, but instead dodging for no reason to move, and then getting birds while not regenerating endurance. A situation which can be avoided completely.The birds that spawn can easily be pulled in and cleaved.

I don't think any Fractal regulars are defending Slippery Slope. Yes, it's awful and doesn't really add anything, since it doesn't have any counter play which you can adapt to. It's just something you have to deal with, akin to old SA, but even more annoying.The effect it has on gameplay is too great for it to lack counterplay, imo.

The most lethal instabilities I found are a combination of Sugar Rush with one or more damage modifiers, such as Outflanked (requiring add cleave) or Stick Together (requiring tight stacking), but they can be played around as well, and shouldn't too big of an issue unless you are running a no heal comp.

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I don't feel like certain combination of instabilities is 100% unplayable, but it's close, like 90%, because most of the time we just had to painfully endured it. Fractal went from my favourite daily to my daily dose of frustration.

Some people who like slippery slope praises it, but they forgot the fact that motion sickness is a thing to the other people who felt it. It's kinda playable if you just tough it up and rush to the toilet later or spend a few minutes after to calm self down, but not really playable in a sense that people who get affected by it would just refuse to do the fractal with this mechanic, because fast pace game with slippery slope equals to spinning yourself on the same spot until you faint or throw up, at least to me anyway. I play game to have fun, so why bother if playing a game that make me sick? I'm sure if I skip that particular fractal, I can spend the same amount of time it takes to fail until I succeed and use it in Silverwaste farming instead, I can earn much more and more enjoyable.

Talking about challenging, I finally got to join a Xera training the first time. We were wiped so many times because people keep making mistake here and there. But guess what? I didn't feel that it was annoying nor frustrating, I can see what mistake I make, I can see what I got hit by, I know what the challenge is. We didn't manage to finish the boss but I left with a sense that I learnt and I know how to improve at the end of it; Let's go back to fractal, Slippery Slope or birds that spits fire/received boons in Siren Reef though??? SS is not only making some people who has motion sickness issue feels discomfort, it's not something that you can adapt, but also make certain skills doesn't work properly. Birds..... you don't always see them, sometimes the surrounding are busy with all the AOE spams by the boss (I'm looking at you Twilight Oasis/Siren Reef), even if you manage to dodge but that's not the end, the Juveniles also attack you?? Birds spawns with Boons??? Best part is they also spawn too often and take away your dodges, I'm glad I've retired my weaver from fractal or I'll have trouble surviving. Challenging? More like artificial difficulty and annoyance to me. I'd rather get wiped many times in raid than in fractal with those instabilities.

Not only Slippery slope and birds, they need to tone some instabilities aswell. There are already tons of feedback both on the forum and on reddit that what's wrong with the new instabilities, such as the outflank definition is too lenient, but at least they're acceptable if tone down a bit more; SS & birds however, should be deleted.

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I have seen more people hate birds and bleed fire then any other.

And I have been in many games that even with the birds and bleed fire we ran though fast.

This said does not make them a good thing reason I say this is Because it forces special class and for a game that originally did not want a trinity (a game where you could play any class where ever you want) that sure is a turn about, making you have to wait for the right class or change your charter that you want or like to play.

About the birds yes that is very frustrating I know the dodge should take them to another enemy that is near by for 4s (NEAR BY) so if not close enough then they come back fast (I have also experienced this that I dodge kill the birds and some one dodge near me and the birds that were attacking them started attacking me) and with all this dodging makes the game less enjoyably and lot harder to stay alive when you need the dodge for the boss or mobs. And yes you can eventually get through tho it problem is it can make a game that takes 10min take 1hr cuz of players that don't have the right class or not enough time leave and also forcing players to change to class they might not really like playing

Now i do understand the idea of making the game so that there is a spot for every class (that way if you have the class you love to play you can now play it more often) but the way it is being implemented makes a new problem (which is the thing Anett did not want when gw2 came out) I remember them talking about how some times in a LFG you would have to wait a long time just for a healer or tank. And now we have more then just the trinity we have at least 4 if not more. I can see this if it keeps going one day you will have a LFG that is like this "1FB 1Crono 1Scourge 1Spellbreaker 1Soulbeast". this would make the wait time even worse and also can make a game less enjoyable when you can't play every part of the game with your favorite class (and I do see this coming the way things have been going)

Even in the games that have the trinity I never have felt like I or any other player was so forced to change there class just to play.

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@"Phoenixtwolf.9213" said:Now i do understand the idea of making the game so that there is a spot for every class (that way if you have the class you love to play you can now play it more often) but the way it is being implemented makes a new problem (which is the thing Anett did not want when gw2 came out) I remember them talking about how some times in a LFG you would have to wait a long time just for a healer or tank. And now we have more then just the trinity we have at least 4 if not more. I can see this if it keeps going one day you will have a LFG that is like this "1FB 1Crono 1Scourge 1Spellbreaker 1Soulbeast". this would make the wait time even worse and also can make a game less enjoyable when you can't play every part of the game with your favorite class (and I do see this coming the way things have been going)

^ this so much.

everyone keeps pointing out that adjustment is important, and the thing is, that is so fucking true - it's amazing how much easier siren's reef becomes once i say, switch from ele to scourge. but a lot of times it's not even adjusting within a class (since not every class has projectile defense, plus ofc scourge is just op/makes things so much easier in high-pressure fights), it's just switching to a new class entirely. and bam, suddenly things almost magically become so much easier.

i haven't played scourge in forever, and i am godawful at it, and STILL it makes things so much easier... even with me playing so poorly.

and it seems like a weird direction to take the game - certain classes for certain fractals w/ certain instabs. and like, i want to point out that i realize there are people who are skilled enough to make anything work, so this does not affect everyone equally, but for players who are rather new to fractals & pugging, it really is a life-saver, time-saver, and wipe-saver.

like, you are not going to want to try over and over again w/ a bunch of random people - that's just too much of a waste of time... so it becomes a very appealing route to take.

and... i am not sure if simply "encouraging people to switch to scourge/whatever" is a direction i want to see this game take. x__x

which is the problem i have with it.

(although i suppose for other people, it could be something they appreciate? not sure if it's a competing access needs thing. personally i don't even like communicating w/ people LOOL. but some people might enjoy the extra coordination required & find the outcome more rewarding in the end, and that's understandable. <3 as well as ofc people who can get by w/o scourges in like, siren's reef with birds + fire + outflanked etc. like seriously, that takes skill that i severely lack & kudos to them.)

a couple other things: i'm not sure i like being so reliant on other people/supports when pugging haha. it's also rather punishing for players who don't have ascended for more than 1 character, and don't have the option to switch.

obviously not everything has to be viable everywhere, and there will always be certain classes favoured for certain fights and all that. i don't have a problem with respeccing to tempest for say, swampland, deepstone, etc, and staying as s/d weaver (which is by far my favourite thing to play) for nightmare, shattered, etc. that's an adjustment that is completely acceptable to me.

it might be a fine line, and one that doesn't exist for some people, but on the other hand "switching to a new class entirely [which you may or may not have geared up] and even playing poorly things will become so much easier" is a weird thing, that seems a bit encouraged w/ certain instab combinations in certain fractals, and yes it is workable, livable, not unplayable, but for me the problem is that it's personally not a direction i want to see the game take.

(for realsies tho, imagine me playing ele in amalalalalalala w/ birds and fire. not-so-great of a fight for either tempest or s/d weaver lol.)

(irrelevant tidbit: in fights even when it's just birds, i'm always like NOOO when they start coming when i'm channeling air overloads -- do i dodge immediately and interrupt myself, or continue channeling and take damage and see a bunch of "misses"? is something i always have to consider lmao & decide based off of how far along in the channel i am & how much healz i think i'll receive through the rest of it lol. bc the air overloads ARE quite satisfying for killing the juveniles that stay and attack you once the initial birds leave. :P)

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@"totaloverride.3240" said:some fractals become unplayable!!

  1. Can't see birds in whole graphic mess!!!
  2. they spawn every few seconds!!!
  3. they stay around and re-engage!!! and engage others players in party
  4. REMOVE STUPID BIRDS
  5. Remove all new instabilities, please! i wrote about them all. amek bosses have more armor, more health, but remove all new instabilities, please

Removed your pinging shit.

  1. Turn on your sound, the birds get a pretty loud chirpy sound when you have to dodge.
  2. They dont actually.
  3. Just cleave them? Thats the mechanic. You dodge them once, then they attack enemies for 4 seconds and then they come back and you cleave them. They have so few hp, just use 3 cleave autoattacks and stop running around with your hands in the air.
  4. Birds arent stupid
  5. Go play t2 fractals if you get overwhelmed. Honestly, the new instabs are WAY easier than the old ones. Theres just no mega op chrono carrying your sorry ass anymore.

I applaud the fractal team for making the instabs very well balanced and the right amount of flavor added to spice fractals up a bit. I also have my "hate" instabs that I just dont like and annoy the heck out of me... but I dont go onto the forum and cry for nerfs just because I cant get my loot just handed to me on logging into fractals.

@"Phoenixtwolf.9213" said:I have seen more people hate birds and bleed fire then any other.And I have been in many games that even with the birds and bleed fire we ran though fast.

Its because people dont know how to counter those instabs properly AND still do mechanics on more "difficult" fractals. And both instabs are reactive in nature, something quite a lot of gw2 players seem to struggle with thanks to how ridiculously casual most of the content is.

@"Phoenixtwolf.9213" said:This said does not make them a good thing reason I say this is Because it forces special class and for a game that originally did not want a trinity (a game where you could play any class where ever you want) that sure is a turn about, making you have to wait for the right class or change your charter that you want or like to play.

Every class in gw2 has dodge. Nearly every class can bring some kind of projectile reflect or hate. Every class can bring mass condi remove for itself, most for others as well. You can bring nullification sigils for boon remove, or absorption if you have cc and can time it properly.... You only need "specialty" builds when you dont know your class or you want to shift all support onto dedicated supporters to get more dps out of the rest. The only constraints in t4 fractals, are the ones you yourself put on the group. The problem isnt instabs. The problem is players having no clue how to adapt their BUILDS to counter them. And thats just so sad, its such a step back from where the game was in 2012-2014 when the majority players running fractals/dungeons knew exactly when and how to adapt their traits, weapons and skills to counter specific encounter mechanics. Just shows how absolutely casual the game has become when players think they have to log another class just to get boon remove or projectile hate.

@Kahlan.7249 said:everyone keeps pointing out that adjustment is important, and the thing is, that is so kitten true - it's amazing how much easier siren's reef becomes once i say, switch from ele to scourge. but a lot of times it's not even adjusting within a class (since not every class has projectile defense, plus ofc scourge is just op/makes things so much easier in high-pressure fights), it's just switching to a new class entirely. and bam, suddenly things almost magically become so much easier.

You could switch your ele just as easily to tempest, slot a staff and add water OL and water5, as well as rebound to your rotation/build. Voila. Easy mode sirens reef. You dont have to switch characters at all for that.

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Instabilities are random, and quite as intended. They are supposed to cause messy moments which force players to adjust to in advance by changing builds and tactics or to make crucial decisions on the fly if they prefer to stick to a fully offensive team no matter the instabilities.This very choice in level design is exactly what allows them to keep the base grade of difficulty quite low and forgiving. Some encounters already feel far too easy on a "good instabilities only" day. Imagine having none at all, all the time. I suppose, some people would love nothing more than that but this is not the intend behind high tier Fractals. One of the few places in this game which is supposed to be at least a little challenging.

The way I see the most complained about instabilities:

  1. Slippery Slope lacks counterplay, I suppose. That's pretty much all I'd complain about. They even disabled it in quite a few places like the puzzles people usually rush through which I wouldn't have done myself.

  2. We Bleed Fire, if anything, is too easy due to the abundance of blocks or projectile hate. My Firebrand's Healing Mantra in particular aligns so well with said instability that some members of my static took forever to fully figure out said instability. They rarely even got hit once in many weeks of the new instabilities. And that's just one example on a single class.

  3. Birds can certainly be annoying at time but they are bound to your dodges. Meaning it is up to you to pay attention which most people struggle with thanks to how used they are to relying on their overstacked supports.

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@Yasi.9065 said:

@"totaloverride.3240" said:some fractals become unplayable!!
  1. Can't see birds in whole graphic mess!!!
  2. they spawn every few seconds!!!
  3. they stay around and re-engage!!! and engage others players in party
  4. REMOVE STUPID BIRDS
  5. Remove all new instabilities, please! i wrote about them all. amek bosses have more armor, more health, but remove all new instabilities, please

Removed your pinging kitten.

1. Turn on your sound, the birds get a pretty loud chirpy sound when you have to dodge.
2. They dont actually.
3. Just cleave them? Thats the mechanic. You dodge them once, then they attack enemies for 4 seconds and then they come back and you cleave them. They have so few hp, just use 3 cleave autoattacks and stop running around with your hands in the air.
4. Birds arent stupid
5. Go play t2 fractals if you get overwhelmed. Honestly, the new instabs are WAY easier than the old ones. Theres just no mega op chrono carrying your sorry kitten anymore.

I applaud the fractal team for making the instabs very well balanced and the right amount of flavor added to spice fractals up a bit. I also have my "hate" instabs that I just dont like and annoy the heck out of me... but I dont go onto the forum and cry for nerfs just because I cant get my loot just handed to me on logging into fractals.

LOOL!! Rarely you can see a more contradictory post on this Forum =).

  1. So, OP, the things are so easy in Fractals now that you can go using your hearing now. You don't need to see. The sound is enough. Too easy!
  2. The birds don't spawn every few seconds. Without seeing the birds with my own eyes, I could swear - from this statement - that the birds spawn once at every few hours.
  3. The birds does not re-engage you. And don't engage the others from the group - the birds attacks you and if you waste a dodge the birds will attack the enemy. But the birds will come back to you again. Or to your teammates.
  4. The birds aren't stupid ?? HM?
  5. But, OP, you should understand - the fractals can be whatever possible. It is a fun experience as long as "no mega OP chrono is carying you" - well, this is the main reason we see this kind of answers. The fractals are fun because a certain class is no more needed =)

Every class in gw2 has dodge. Nearly every class can bring some kind of projectile reflect or hate. Every class can bring mass condi remove for itself, most for others as well. You can bring nullification sigils for boon remove, or absorption if you have cc and can time it properly.... You only need "specialty" builds when you dont know your class or you want to shift all support onto dedicated supporters to get more dps out of the rest. The only constraints in t4 fractals, are the ones you yourself put on the group. The problem isnt instabs. The problem is players having no clue how to adapt their BUILDS to counter them. And thats just so sad, its such a step back from where the game was in 2012-2014 when the majority players running fractals/dungeons knew exactly when and how to adapt their traits, weapons and skills to counter specific encounter mechanics. Just shows how absolutely casual the game has become when players think they have to log another class just to get boon remove or projectile hate.

So, in 2012-2014 the players running fractals knew exactly what to run. And were successful in what they did. After gaining some experience (for about 5 years) they are unable now to adapt their BUILDS and stats - LOL! this is exactly what another poster highlighted: the need to change the BUILD and stats from one encounter to another. And do you think this is fun? To come back - after 5 years of experience, playing the same fractals (with 3 new added) the players are adviced to play T2? Because T4 is too hard. WHAT? Is this a proof that the game is more casual now? The only different thing are the instabilities. Exactly the subject of this debate. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?BTW: If you run a projectile reflect / condi removal and you gear a sigil of absorption (or nullification) for your weapon / then you use your dodges to evade the birds, then, how you will damage the mobs? And moreover, how you will evade the Boss atack?

I stop here - because what you said is so contradictory that you can fill pages highlighting the anomalies. I understood now - you are happy because the monstrous OP Chrono is no more and the fractal teams will need a Guardian + a Revenant to give them .... the same the Chrono gave. So, you are not against the boons, you are against the Chrono. And, reading your previous posts, against the Druid also. So, you are happy. I don't know if you are happy because the Fractals are now much difficult for most of the other players or you are so happy that the Chrono is no more that you can praise ANet for everything they done in exchange =)

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:So, in 2012-2014 the players running fractals knew exactly what to run. And were successful in what they did. After gaining some experience (for about 5 years) they are unable now to adapt their BUILDS and stats - LOL! this is exactly what another poster highlighted: the need to change the BUILD and stats from one encounter to another. And do you think this is fun? To come back - after 5 years of experience, playing the same fractals (with 3 new added) the players are adviced to play T2? Because T4 is too hard. WHAT? Is this a proof that the game is more casual now? The only different thing are the instabilities. Exactly the subject of this debate. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

The vast majority of players didn't play fractals until the rework in November 2013. Even after that, the vast majority of players did not play fractals. It wasn't until raids were introduced that a chunk of the player base started running T4 (let's not even get into CMs).

Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

The monstrous chrono was replaced by the monstrous Firebrand while people were constantly complaining that chrono needs nerfs. Not sure how any one here could be blamed for that.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:So, in 2012-2014 the players running fractals knew exactly what to run. And were successful in what they did. After gaining some experience (for about 5 years) they are unable now to adapt their BUILDS and stats - LOL! this is exactly what another poster highlighted: the need to change the BUILD and stats from one encounter to another. And do you think this is fun? To come back - after 5 years of experience, playing the same fractals (with 3 new added) the players are adviced to play T2? Because T4 is too hard. WHAT? Is this a proof that the game is more casual now? The only different thing are the instabilities. Exactly the subject of this debate. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

The vast majority of players didn't play fractals until the rework in November 2013. Even after that, the vast majority of players did not play fractals. It wasn't until raids were introduced that a chunk of the player base started running T4 (let's not even get into CMs).

This was the reason I said 5 years of experience. And T4 is another "improvement" to the fractals. Bringing nothing in terms of enjoyment. Until T4 we had only 3 tiers - having all the 100 levels. As the actual T4 structuring. And until T3 we had the old 50 levels fractals, with 5 tiers.

Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

If this was the purpose of the fractals, then ANet should delete them. Because you gained the knowledge of the group content in dungeons. Also in dungeons you learned how to dodge an attack. And, that players, knowing the group content and knowing how to dodge were able to do the fractals. But now, after multiple reworks in the same fractals they have instabilities. And they cannot do the fractals as before. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

Auto pilot? HM? I remember that I done each and every low level fractal several times only to gather enough AR to get to the next tier. And again each and every fractal to gather AR for the next tier. Leveling my crafting to craft my gear. And so on. Auto pilot? But still, even so, I find the old fractals to be more enjoyable than the actual ones. I do fractals today less and less frequent. On the other hand I done each old fractal on each tier several times without getting bored.

But, letting my own feelings apart, it seems that you admit the actual fractals are played by less players than before. The fractals are end-game content (together with the raids - the dungeons were excluded). If you take the end-game content from the players letting them nothing to do, then what do you think will be the players reaction?

The monstrous chrono was replaced by the monstrous Firebrand while people were constantly complaining that chrono needs nerfs. Not sure how any one here could be blamed for that.

Exactly what I said - not the "monstrosity" was the problem. But the class. And the poster I quoted seems to be very happy with this. I never saw him complaining about Firebrand doing the same thing. But a Chrono was cancerous =).

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:So, in 2012-2014 the players running fractals knew exactly what to run. And were successful in what they did. After gaining some experience (for about 5 years) they are unable now to adapt their BUILDS and stats - LOL! this is exactly what another poster highlighted: the need to change the BUILD and stats from one encounter to another. And do you think this is fun? To come back - after 5 years of experience, playing the same fractals (with 3 new added) the players are adviced to play T2? Because T4 is too hard. WHAT? Is this a proof that the game is more casual now? The only different thing are the instabilities. Exactly the subject of this debate. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

The vast majority of players didn't play fractals until the rework in November 2013. Even after that, the vast majority of players did not play fractals. It wasn't until raids were introduced that a chunk of the player base started running T4 (let's not even get into CMs).

This was the reason I said 5 years of experience. And T4 is another "improvement" to the fractals. Bringing nothing in terms of enjoyment. Until T4 we had only 3 tiers - having all the 100 levels. As the actual T4 structuring. And until T3 we had the old 50 levels fractals, with 5 tiers.

Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

Then there was the first version of tiers, where people only ran 3 times swamp. Is that the level you are looking for skill wise?

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

If this was the purpose of the fractals, then ANet should delete them. Because you gained the knowledge of the group content in dungeons. Also in dungeons you learned how to dodge an attack. And, that players, knowing the group content and knowing how to dodge were able to do the fractals. But now, after multiple reworks in the same fractals they have instabilities. And they cannot do the fractals as before. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

Yes, except that dungeons work very differently than fractals. Some of the damage you receive in dungeons is miles above what you are dealt with in fractals.

I didn't say anything. If I did say something it would be: fractals and fractal difficulty gets adjusted to the games power creep.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

Auto pilot? HM? I remember that I done each and every low level fractal several times only to gather enough AR to get to the next tier. And again each and every fractal to gather AR for the next tier. Leveling my crafting to craft my gear. And so on. Auto pilot? But still, even so, I find the old fractals to be more enjoyable than the actual ones. I do fractals today less and less frequent. On the other hand I done each old fractal on each tier several times without getting bored.

Most of the old fractals are nothing more than free loot. Yes, I'd imagine people enjoy those more. It's basically 0 challenge for top level rewards.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:But, letting my own feelings apart, it seems that you admit the actual fractals are played by less players than before. The fractals are end-game content (together with the raids - the dungeons were excluded). If you take the end-game content from the players letting them nothing to do, then what do you think will be the players reaction?

Re-read what I said. Fractals see more play now than they did for the initial years of their release.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The monstrous chrono was replaced by the monstrous Firebrand while people were constantly complaining that chrono needs nerfs. Not sure how any one here could be blamed for that.

Exactly what I said - not the "monstrosity" was the problem. But the class. And the poster I quoted seems to be very happy with this. I never saw him complaining about Firebrand doing the same thing. But a Chrono was cancerous =).

Depends, it seems a lot of people had issues with chronos carrying the group. Most people, even skill less players, were envious of chronos being in high demand, while their poor dps class of choice was not. As such every one was asking for nerfs. Now that nerfs came, people are suddenly complaining that content is harder. You can't have both.

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Will give a kudo to remove birds, those should be killed with fire and sent to hell. Was way far better without them. Adding no-sense instabilities doesn't bring challenge, I'm okay with the ones telling dodge or use whatever mechanic, but for me we are going further and further from the original concept of fractal which was when "fractured" was released: discover and experiment key moments of tyria history with your friends brought to you by Ellen Kiel! and not "make the fractals the hardest possible with annoying annoyances (no they aren't instabilities)." Old instabilities are way far better, flux bomb doesn't annoy me at all, same for no pain-no gain or last laugh...

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