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Some fractals become unplayable!!


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@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.There were, and there were. Just not as obvious as now. Or maybe you don't remember why people were doing one fractal per each reward tier (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-49, 50) daily?

@Cyninja.2954 said:Depends, it seems a lot of people had issues with chronos carrying the group. Most people, even skill less players, were envious of chronos being in high demand, while their poor dps class of choice was not. As such every one was asking for nerfs. Now that nerfs came, people are suddenly complaining that content is harder. You can't have both.Yeah, it was pretty much obvious that nerfing chrono without buffs to other classes that would balance that (which of course didn't happen) would nave some really negative impact on quality of runs in any higher difficulty instanced content. Still, the instability changes did add to that quite significantly and their impact cannot be overlooked.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

This was the reason I said 5 years of experience. And T4 is another "improvement" to the fractals. Bringing nothing in terms of enjoyment. Until T4 we had only 3 tiers - having all the 100 levels. As the actual T4 structuring. And until T3 we had the old 50 levels fractals, with 5 tiers.

Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

Then there was the first version of tiers, where people only ran 3 times swamp. Is that the level you are looking for skill wise?

I started to play in GW2 in April 2014. And I remember very well we had fractals lvl 1-10 / 11-20 / 21-30/ 31-40 / 41-50. Each tier rewarding you once per day for completion. It may be possible that before April 2014 the Fractals to work differently. I only remember the last 5 years of fractals.

Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

If this was the purpose of the fractals, then ANet should delete them. Because you gained the knowledge of the group content in dungeons. Also in dungeons you learned how to dodge an attack. And, that players, knowing the group content and knowing how to dodge were able to do the fractals. But now, after multiple reworks in the same fractals they have instabilities. And they cannot do the fractals as before. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

Yes, except that dungeons work very differently than fractals. Some of the damage you receive in dungeons is miles above what you are dealt with in fractals.

I didn't say anything. If I did say something it would be: fractals and fractal difficulty gets adjusted to the games power creep.

It was not about the level of damage received from Dungeons. But for the purpose of the Fractals. And I said that if the fractals had the purpose you said, then we already had this kind of content.

Indeed - fractals adjusted for the power creep. And this is the error in design. Or this spiral is intended? First you have content - hard content. You learn how to play and beat it. Then new specializations appears. The hard content become not-so-hard-anymore. More and more players complete the content. Then you introduce something arbitrary (let's say instabilities) and the content become again harder - but not by itself, but by the add-ons. Less players completing this content. And again, another specialization appears. And again new "instabilities" are invented. And so on. New methods to beat the same content.

What a lazy attitude! Instead of creating new content according to the new power creep, they keep making the old content more and more annoying - with the help of the "instabilities" implemented with minimal work and even tests.

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

Auto pilot? HM? I remember that I done each and every low level fractal several times only to gather enough AR to get to the next tier. And again each and every fractal to gather AR for the next tier. Leveling my crafting to craft my gear. And so on. Auto pilot? But still, even so, I find the old fractals to be more enjoyable than the actual ones. I do fractals today less and less frequent. On the other hand I done each old fractal on each tier several times without getting bored.

Most of the old fractals are nothing more than free loot. Yes, I'd imagine people enjoy those more. It's basically 0 challenge for top level rewards.

Really? From what I read on this Forum it seems that the top level rewards are located in Istan / Silverwastes / please name the others. In a guide for gold making the Fractals were on the 3-th or 4-th place. So, this is not how you say. Don't try to tell me that the Silverwastes means a lot of challenge.

And speaking of rewards - I like the Aetherbalde path on Twilight Arbor much much more than the actual fractals. Despite being (almost) no rewarding. Not the reward I had from fractals and now I don't have is the problem. But the degree of fun. I still can do the fractals.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:But, letting my own feelings apart, it seems that you admit the actual fractals are played by less players than before. The fractals are end-game content (together with the raids - the dungeons were excluded). If you take the end-game content from the players letting them nothing to do, then what do you think will be the players reaction?

Re-read what I said. Fractals see more play now than they did for the initial years of their release.

You said - "Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt."

In my interpretation, having players forced to wait until other will invent a spoon for them means the fractals are played now less than before. If you say that this milestone should be the beginning when very few players played them, then OK. It seems that ANet is trying to make the things as in the beginning, having very few players in fractals.But you know what? At that time we had the dungeons. Now the dungeons were "improved" by ANet with the declared intention to make them less attractive for the players. Because we have now the Fractals. But it seems they want to take the fractals too from us. And, as the dungeons are still played by few nostalgic, so the fractals will be played by few elite.

What about the other? The rest of non-elite players? Is this an invitation from ANet to search for another game?

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@Cristalyan.5728 said:What about the other? The rest of non-elite players? Is this an invitation from ANet to search for another game?

There are 3 Tiers below Tier 4, they even have less of the dreaded Instabilities.At some point, you have to ask yourself if you like Fractals, their concept and the challenge they provide in the first place, or if you just want T4 loot, without willing to put in "T4 effort".

If you do not enjoy adapting your build and profession to beat the difficult content, but you still enjoy and want to play Fractals, the very system of Fractals provides that opportunity.

@"Cyninja.2954" said:The monstrous chrono was replaced by the monstrous Firebrand while people were constantly complaining that chrono needs nerfs. Not sure how any one here could be blamed for that.

Exactly what I said - not the "monstrosity" was the problem. But the class. And the poster I quoted seems to be very happy with this. I never saw him complaining about Firebrand doing the same thing. But a Chrono was cancerous =).

Depends, it seems a lot of people had issues with chronos carrying the group. Most people, even skill less players, were envious of chronos being in high demand, while their poor dps class of choice was not. As such every one was asking for nerfs. Now that nerfs came, people are suddenly complaining that content is harder. You can't have both.

The Chrono nerfs were the best thing to happen to GW2 in a very long time.And Firebrand does not almost solo every single breakbar while single handedly skipping half of every other Fractal with blinks and portals, nor does it have the same adpull capabilities, or can take care of boon rip, like old Chrono did.

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@Asum.4960 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:What about the other? The rest of non-elite players? Is this an invitation from ANet to search for another game?

There are 3 Tiers below Tier 4, they even have less of the dreaded Instabilities.At some point, you have to ask yourself if you like Fractals, their concept and the challenge they provide in the first place, or if you just want T4 loot, without willing to put in "T4 effort".

I like fractals,I like the loot,I like the challenge,Birds aren't challenge.You funboys keep defending low quality content are digging the grave for this game.There is a fine line between challenged and annoyed.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.There were, and there were. Just not as obvious as now. Or maybe you don't remember why people were doing one fractal per each reward tier (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-49, 50) daily?

Yes, there was reward tiers, but no daily chests. Even ascended armor and weapons were added way later. The only thing which was of value was ascended rings and their infused versions. As such the tier reward system as we know it now with advancing chest rewards was not in place.

That was also the 2nd version of fractals. The initial one went to 100 and there was no point in going beyond 30 both time and time/reward wise.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Depends, it seems a lot of people had issues with chronos carrying the group. Most people, even skill less players, were envious of chronos being in high demand, while their poor dps class of choice was not. As such every one was asking for nerfs. Now that nerfs came, people are suddenly complaining that content is harder. You can't have both.Yeah, it was pretty much obvious that nerfing chrono without buffs to other classes that would balance that (which of course didn't happen) would nave some really negative impact on quality of runs in any higher difficulty instanced content. Still, the instability changes did add to that quite significantly and their impact cannot be overlooked.

You mean like buffs to FB and Renegade? FB+Ren comp is solid. Support Scourge negates almost any fractal. Multiple Scourge+druid comp works again.

No, people are just incapable of finding safe strategies and rather bash their heads against a wall running "what they are used to" and complaining about it not working.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

This was the reason I said 5 years of experience. And T4 is another "improvement" to the fractals. Bringing nothing in terms of enjoyment. Until T4 we had only 3 tiers - having all the 100 levels. As the actual T4 structuring. And until T3 we had the old 50 levels fractals, with 5 tiers.

Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.

Then there was the first version of tiers, where people only ran 3 times swamp. Is that the level you are looking for skill wise?

I started to play in GW2 in April 2014. And I remember very well we had fractals lvl 1-10 / 11-20 / 21-30/ 31-40 / 41-50. Each tier rewarding you once per day for completion. It may be possible that before April 2014 the Fractals to work differently. I only remember the last 5 years of fractals.

Yes, that was the first rework. That was the time when a full fractal run was 3 random fractals and a boss fractal. None of those runs took less than 1 hour or even 1.5 hours with a mediocre PUG group (the ones running around right now). Replaced by triple swamp and then 4 necro+druid runs and comps.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

Fractals were reworked multiple times. The only experience gained in running those inital fractals was getting used to group content and properly dodging attacks (since agony was an instant kill back then). That experience is of the same value now as it was then.

If this was the purpose of the fractals, then ANet should delete them. Because you gained the knowledge of the group content in dungeons. Also in dungeons you learned how to dodge an attack. And, that players, knowing the group content and knowing how to dodge were able to do the fractals. But now, after multiple reworks in the same fractals they have instabilities. And they cannot do the fractals as before. And you say that NOT the instabilities are the reason?

Yes, except that dungeons work very differently than fractals. Some of the damage you receive in dungeons is miles above what you are dealt with in fractals.

I didn't say anything. If I did say something it would be: fractals and fractal difficulty gets adjusted to the games power creep.

It was not about the level of damage received from Dungeons. But for the purpose of the Fractals. And I said that if the fractals had the purpose you said, then we already had this kind of content.

Indeed - fractals adjusted for the power creep. And this is the error in design. Or this spiral is intended? First you have content - hard content. You learn how to play and beat it. Then new specializations appears. The hard content become not-so-hard-anymore. More and more players complete the content. Then you introduce something arbitrary (let's say instabilities) and the content become again harder - but not by itself, but by the add-ons. Less players completing this content. And again, another specialization appears. And again new "instabilities" are invented. And so on. New methods to beat the same content.

What a lazy attitude! Instead of creating new content according to the new power creep, they keep making the
old
content more and more annoying - with the help of the "instabilities" implemented with minimal work and even tests.

Sure, they could make new content. Then please also reduce the rewards for the old content. Ascended is end game level gear. Absolutely no justification to get it cheaper for outdated easy content.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them. Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.

Auto pilot? HM? I remember that I done each and every low level fractal several times only to gather enough AR to get to the next tier. And again each and every fractal to gather AR for the next tier. Leveling my crafting to craft my gear. And so on. Auto pilot? But still, even so, I find the old fractals to be more enjoyable than the actual ones. I do fractals today less and less frequent. On the other hand I done each old fractal on each tier several times without getting bored.

Most of the old fractals are nothing more than free loot. Yes, I'd imagine people enjoy those more. It's basically 0 challenge for top level rewards.

Really? From what I read on this Forum it seems that the top level rewards are located in Istan / Silverwastes / please name the others. In a guide for gold making the Fractals were on the 3-th or 4-th place. So, this is not how you say. Don't try to tell me that the Silverwastes means a lot of challenge.

And speaking of rewards - I like the Aetherbalde path on Twilight Arbor much much more than the actual fractals. Despite being (almost) no rewarding. Not the reward I had from fractals and now I don't have is the problem. But the degree of fun. I still can do the fractals.

You know this is untrue. Fractals are the most rewarding content if you factor in value of ascended boxes. Even at 1 ascended box per week. That's an additional 10g per day average with chances to get more (or less) on top of the regular loot.

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:But, letting my own feelings apart, it seems that you admit the actual fractals are played by less players than before. The fractals are end-game content (together with the raids - the dungeons were excluded). If you take the end-game content from the players letting them nothing to do, then what do you think will be the players reaction?

Re-read what I said. Fractals see more play now than they did for the initial years of their release.

You said - "Players having severe issues in adapting to new instabilities were never the cream of the crop but were running things on auto pilot, on builds they did not create them selves but copied from metabattle for composition that others figure out for them.
Yes, those players will have to wait until they are spoon fed a new meta or adapt.
"

In my interpretation, having players forced to wait until other will invent a spoon for them means the fractals are played now less than before. If you say that this milestone should be the beginning when
very few
players played them, then OK. It seems that ANet is trying to make the things as in the beginning, having
very few
players in fractals.But you know what? At that time we had the dungeons. Now the dungeons were "improved" by ANet with the declared intention to make them less attractive for the players. Because we have now the Fractals. But it seems they want to take the fractals too from us. And, as the dungeons are still played by few nostalgic, so the fractals will be played by few elite.

and then dungeon rewards were brought back up. Please don't make me do the calculation again. If you think dungeons are unrewarding right now, you have never done the math behind them. I have and I have run them. The reason dungeons aren't being run is because back during vanilla, dungeons and SW were the most lucrative content. Now there is similar lucrative content which can be run solo and a vast amount of other farm opportunities.

I didn't say players had to wait. Any player can go and get better at the game and improve and come up with their own builds and strategies. Unfortunately most won't. I don't tend to care about people who just copy others builds and then complain when things get harder.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.There were, and there were. Just not as obvious as now. Or maybe you don't remember why people were doing one fractal per each reward tier (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-49, 50) daily?

Yes, there was reward tiers, but no daily chests.There were daily chests. Not the current UI bouncy ones, but there were the chests at the end of the jade maw fractal, and they gave rewards once per day per reward tier.

Even ascended armor and weapons were added way later. The only thing which was of value was ascended rings and their infused versions. As such the tier reward system as we know it now with advancing chest rewards was not in place.Yes, the
current
one wasn't in place yet. This doesn't mean there was no tier-based reward system at all. It did exist (even if it was way less rewarding).
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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Except that this is bogus. There was no Tiers in the initial iterations of fractals. Those were added way later. There was only increasing rewards. There wasn't even daily chests for the first years.There were, and there were. Just not as obvious as now. Or maybe you don't remember why people were doing one fractal per each reward tier (1-10, 11-20, 21-30, 31-40, 41-49, 50) daily?

Yes, there was reward tiers, but no daily chests.There were daily chests. Not the current UI bouncy ones, but there were the chests at the end of the jade maw fractal, and they gave rewards once per day per reward tier.

There was no:

  • fractal chests
  • ascended weapons
  • ascended armor
  • ascended trinkets
  • fractal keys
  • agony resistance
  • etc.

Yes, there was daily reward chests. They were very similar to the ones we have now at the end of each fractal. The only difference being that instead of rings from the end fractal chest, we now get rings and a lot more loot from the daily chests. In essence, the old daily rewards were more like the current end fractal rewards (also value wise) than with the daily achievement chests.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Even ascended armor and weapons were added way later. The only thing which was of value was ascended rings and their infused versions. As such the tier reward system as we know it now with advancing chest rewards was not in place.Yes, the
current
one wasn't in place yet. This doesn't mean there was no tier-based reward system at all. It did exist (even if it was way less rewarding).

A lot of the current rewards were not in place. Mostly a ton of the gold reward too. The only thing higher in the old system was the karma reward.

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@phs.6089 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:What about the other? The rest of non-elite players? Is this an invitation from ANet to search for another game?

There are 3 Tiers below Tier 4, they even have less of the dreaded Instabilities.At some point, you have to ask yourself if you like Fractals, their concept and the challenge they provide in the first place, or if you just want T4 loot, without willing to put in "T4 effort".

I like fractals,I like the loot,I like the challenge,Birds aren't challenge.You funboys keep defending low quality content are digging the grave for this game.There is a fine line between challenged and annoyed.

Look, I'm all for removing Slippery Slope and making Birds only trigger when in combat, I just don't appreciate when people's first reaction to encountering difficulty is crying for nerfs, and how things are unplayable, when that's clearly not the case.

Even story missions, which completely lose their gravitas because they are so easy, that they straight up don't have a fail state, with in lore threatening foes being beat while the player is afk, are cried about being "impossible" in these forums, while it completely ruins the experience and feeling of accomplishment for anyone who at least read their skills and Traits and put together a half way working build.

There is also a fine line between accessible and boring.

If people struggle so much with Birds, they are probably not playing CM's and co, and are not worried about Meta foods. So why not eat a 40% increased endurance regen food ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bowl_of_Orrian_Truffle_and_Meat_Stew ), or try to work Vigor into their build if available?It's not like the game doesn't provide the tools and then some to overcome the challenges it provides.

If something is annoying, anti fun or badly designed (like imo Slippery Slope), then that's something that can be discussed, but hyperbole about things being unplayable and calling for the removal of everything new that hasn't been adapted to yet will most likely just bounce in an echo chamber of qq and achieve nothing.

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There's what Asum.4960 said, but imo it's some of the instabilities require lots of fine tuning itself or for certain specific fractals.

Birds - The damage is manageable and only punishing if the player(s) fail to notice and dodge to remove it. The problem is the players can be "reinfected" by the instability due to the duration and the juvenile birds keeping players in combat, at times preventing the use of mistlocks :frown: . Giving the instability better visual signs indicators eg. Yellow border like raids or claw marking helps.

We Bleed Fire - This instability is a mess. The damage source from bosses and certain champs is too punishing for class with low health pool. Hits harder than the the boss itself, usually :lol:. Its triggered by attacks regardless of the target is invul or blocking (bummer). Duo encounters eg. Molten Bosses, Mai Tirin + Horrik have 2 source triggering giant fireballs in a single fight (that's 6k + 6k).

Outflanked - 300% is overtuned. Firstly, the angle of "flanking" is questionable especially while "strafing"/ moving. Complimented by instabilities like W.B.F , minnions, vindicator's charging etc from bad angles. The perk taking 75% damage from head on attacks is not that helpful, since players will have no problem most of the time while big/notable attacks should be dodged or prevented regardless. Would be better if it's players deal more damage flanking the enemies in return but not sure how it works for condi users, since such change will tip heavily to power builds.

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@"Eramonster.2718" said:Outflanked - 300% is overtuned. Firstly, the angle of "flanking" is questionable especially while "strafing"/ moving. Complimented by instabilities like W.B.F , minnions, vindicator's charging etc from bad angles. The perk taking 75% damage from head on attacks is not that helpful, since players will have no problem most of the time while big/notable attacks should be dodged or prevented regardless. Would be better if it's players deal more damage flanking the enemies in return but not sure how it works for condi users, since such change will tip heavily to power builds.The trigger isn't the direction from which the damage comes from (which wouldn't be so obvious in the case of condi or aoe). The trigger is whether there is an enemy at your "back" or not. So, even if all the mobs dealing damage are in front of you, but some mechanic spawns a single mob at your side/back (...birds?), it instantly triggers the outflanked effect.

So, basically, if it applied to players equally, all you've had to do is to have one player stand on the other side of the boss, and all players would instantly start doing 300% damage to that boss.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Eramonster.2718" said:
Outflanked
- 300% is overtuned. Firstly, the angle of "flanking" is questionable especially while "strafing"/ moving. Complimented by instabilities like W.B.F , minnions, vindicator's charging etc from bad angles. The perk taking 75% damage from head on attacks is not that helpful, since players will have no problem most of the time while big/notable attacks should be dodged or prevented regardless. Would be better if it's players deal more damage flanking the enemies in return but not sure how it works for condi users, since such change will tip heavily to power builds.The trigger isn't the direction from which the damage comes from (which wouldn't be so obvious in the case of condi or aoe). The trigger is whether
there is an enemy at your "back" or not
. So, even if all the mobs dealing damage are in front of you, but some mechanic spawns a single mob at your side/back (...birds?), it instantly triggers the outflanked effect.

So, basically, if it applied to players equally, all you've had to do is to have one player stand on the other side of the boss, and
all
players would instantly start doing 300% damage to that boss.

Interesting, did not know this worked this way.

Would be interesting to maybe adjust to as follows:

  • reduce damage reduction to 90% (instead of 75%)
  • reduce damage bonus to 150% (instead of 300%)
  • increase range to 450 or 600 (honestly, mostly because 300 range would allow players to benefit from this while most bosses would not. Even like this, CM100 bosses would be severely disadvantaged)
  • make players and enemies be affected by the instability

This would seem like it strikes a reasonable balance between toning down the instability and making it more interesting. Maybe even too powerful against bosses.

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@Eramonster.2718 said:We Bleed Fire - This instability is a mess. The damage source from bosses and certain champs is too punishing for class with low health pool. Hits harder than the the boss itself, usually :lol:. Its triggered by attacks regardless of the target is invul or blocking (bummer). Duo encounters eg. Molten Bosses, Mai Tirin + Horrik have 2 source triggering giant fireballs in a single fight (that's 6k + 6k).

I personally really enjoy We Bleed Fire and think it's really well designed, and it would be unfortunate to see it become another non mechanic, allowing you to mostly ignore it after nerfs to it, making it yet another mildly annoying, but not worth playing around it instability.

It has a pretty well designed animation for when exactly it's about to happen, with plenty warning time, that is hard to miss.I like that you can dodge it, block it, or destroy/reflect it.

It's threatening, but with a clear visual indicator and meaningful as well as plentiful counters. That's really good design imo.

It may actually be my favourite Instability of new and old, except for Frailty maybe, for obvious reasons. Gotta go fast.Removing it's ability to trigger of invulnerable foes etc, seems pretty reasonable though.

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@Asum.4960 said:I personally really enjoy We Bleed Fire and think it's really well designed, and it would be unfortunate to see it become another non mechanic, allowing you to mostly ignore it after nerfs to it, making it yet another mildly annoying, but not worth playing around it instability.

It has a pretty well designed animation for when exactly it's about to happen, with plenty warning time, that is hard to miss.I like that you can dodge it, block it, or destroy/reflect it.

It's threatening, but with a clear visual indicator and meaningful as well as plentiful counters. That's really good design imo.On single enemy in a fight that doesn't require you to use all your dodges already even without that instability. Add more enemies (and spossibly some other instabilities) to it though, and/or put it in some already difficult encounters, and it gets out of hand very fast.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Asum.4960" said:I personally really enjoy We Bleed Fire and think it's really well designed, and it would be unfortunate to see it become another non mechanic, allowing you to mostly ignore it after nerfs to it, making it yet another mildly annoying, but not worth playing around it instability.

It has a pretty well designed animation for when exactly it's about to happen, with plenty warning time, that is hard to miss.I like that you can dodge it, block it, or destroy/reflect it.

It's threatening, but with a clear visual indicator and meaningful as well as plentiful counters. That's really good design imo.On single enemy in a fight that doesn't require you to use all your dodges already even without that instability. Add more enemies (and spossibly some other instabilities) to it though, and/or put it in some already difficult encounters, and it gets out of hand very fast.

Anet did have the foresight to make the instability drastically weaker when triggering off adds, but yea, that's really where projectile defense comes into play, or it can get messy. But that is what I enjoy about it, those "worst case scenarios" where it actually has to be countered properly, making it an actual mechanic, rather than a minor nuisance that's just there, like most other Instabilities.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Asum.4960 said:I personally really enjoy We Bleed Fire and think it's really well designed, and it would be unfortunate to see it become another non mechanic, allowing you to mostly ignore it after nerfs to it, making it yet another mildly annoying, but not worth playing around it instability.

It has a pretty well designed animation for when exactly it's about to happen, with plenty warning time, that is hard to miss.I like that you can dodge it, block it, or destroy/reflect it.

It's threatening, but with a clear visual indicator and meaningful as well as plentiful counters. That's really good design imo.On single enemy in a fight that doesn't require you to use all your dodges already even without that instability. Add more enemies (and spossibly some other instabilities) to it though, and/or put it in some already difficult encounters, and it gets out of hand very fast.

Honestly the only change I would like to see is to have the reflected bolts deal damage to the enemy in place of condi being reduced.

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@"Rodrick.1942" said:Those who keep saying that new instab make fractal "unplayable" are the one who doesn't like change ( adapt build to deal with these mechanics).

Fractals are not fun cause of those... pfffft

Today's Siren's reef was an example of a disaster..

outflanked... + Motion sickness Social + we bleed fire

= Tons of adds steadily keeping burns on you while your team mates push you into stuff while trying to avoid the stage's mechanics

It's simply ludicrous to have to work twice as hard for the same value rewards.

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How about changing them instead of removing them.

Ex: Birds - Anyone (enemies included) when struck (20% chance) will have 5 birds summoned around them (same as the current ravens in terms of HP/Toughness). These birds inflict blindness with every hit to their target. The birds are hostile to everyone and will attack the nearest target.

Ex: Slippery Slope - Players and terrestrial enemies have a 10% chance to get knocked down for 1 second when struck by a critical hit. When knocked down, everyone (enemies included) will slide forward.

Those are the two really egregious ones from what I've noticed. I think those changes would probably be fair.

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@Aplethoraof.2643 said:How about changing them instead of removing them.

Ex: Birds - Anyone (enemies included) when struck (20% chance) will have 5 birds summoned around them (same as the current ravens in terms of HP/Toughness). These birds inflict blindness with every hit to their target. The birds are hostile to everyone and will attack the nearest target.

Ex: Slippery Slope - Players and terrestrial enemies have a 10% chance to get knocked down for 1 second when struck by a critical hit. When knocked down, everyone (enemies included) will slide forward.

Those are the two really egregious ones from what I've noticed. I think those changes would probably be fair.

When you have 5 players, at least 2-3 of which are running 100% Crit Chance, and land 1-20 hits a second each, you would basically perma disable trash and make them slide all over the place, while instantly breaking all breakbars on bosses.

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There is nothing wrong with new instabs, its just people not knowing mechanics and now they need to place more focus on the instabs itself than the core fractal ones. I did all the fractals in T4 some days ago with a drunk pug team just for fun(all the ones from 75 to 100 not doing the same twice) we had some bad wipes but we could do them while laughing so i just dont understand why people complain this much about them, i mean yes, slippery can be annoying at some places like 100 but if the DPS is good and the druid and chrono is on point then you phase/kill bosses in no time, otherwise just leave the group like i do usually. Sliding on the small platforms tho after the phases of the first boss can be funny

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@Nepster.4275 said:There is nothing wrong with new instabs, its just people not knowing mechanics and now they need to place more focus on the instabs itself than the core fractal ones. I did all the fractals in T4 some days ago with a drunk pug team just for fun(all the ones from 75 to 100 not doing the same twice) we had some bad wipes but we could do them while laughing so i just dont understand why people complain this much about them, i mean yes, slippery can be annoying at some places like 100 but if the DPS is good and the druid and chrono is on point then you phase/kill bosses in no time, otherwise just leave the group like i do usually. Sliding on the small platforms tho after the phases of the first boss can be funny

Maybe cus I don't drink and find birds annoying rather then fun?

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@phs.6089 said:

@"Nepster.4275" said:There is nothing wrong with new instabs, its just people not knowing mechanics and now they need to place more focus on the instabs itself than the core fractal ones. I did all the fractals in T4 some days ago with a drunk pug team just for fun(all the ones from 75 to 100 not doing the same twice) we had some bad wipes but we could do them while laughing so i just dont understand why people complain this much about them, i mean yes, slippery can be annoying at some places like 100 but if the DPS is good and the druid and chrono is on point then you phase/kill bosses in no time, otherwise just leave the group like i do usually. Sliding on the small platforms tho after the phases of the first boss can be funny

Maybe cus I don't drink and find birds annoying rather then fun?

Its not about finding them fun only when you are drinking but like honestly, in fractals you dont even need to dodge for any other purpose than birds and some other hard hitting mechanics, and as i said if your druid and chrono is on point you only need to dodge even for birds, its just that people are running without heal or chrono or any other boon support/heal spec. Thats not a bad thing tho, its just that fractals are end game content(kind of) so you should have a group who can manage that. There were no fractals since the update what i coudnt one shot even with LFG group(only when at the first day slippery was in underground fractal). I do not argue that its annoying but its really not that big of a deal, if its making you so much struggle then kick druid or even chrono or well, if you try to kill a boss for 5 mins then DPS. It all comes down that people think about fractals as "normal" basic things, because they are not, they are END GAME content, so if your group cant handle it, its something bad in the group and not in the instability

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@Nepster.4275 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@Nepster.4275 said:There is nothing wrong with new instabs, its just people not knowing mechanics and now they need to place more focus on the instabs itself than the core fractal ones. I did all the fractals in T4 some days ago with a drunk pug team just for fun(all the ones from 75 to 100 not doing the same twice) we had some bad wipes but we could do them while laughing so i just dont understand why people complain this much about them, i mean yes, slippery can be annoying at some places like 100 but if the DPS is good and the druid and chrono is on point then you phase/kill bosses in no time, otherwise just leave the group like i do usually. Sliding on the small platforms tho after the phases of the first boss can be funny

Maybe cus I don't drink and find birds annoying rather then fun?

Its not about finding them fun only when you are drinking but like honestly, in fractals you dont even need to dodge for any other purpose than birds and some other hard hitting mechanics, and as i said if your druid and chrono is on point you only need to dodge even for birds, its just that people are running without heal or chrono or any other boon support/heal spec. Thats not a bad thing tho, its just that fractals are end game content(kind of) so you should have a group who can manage that. There were no fractals since the update what i coudnt one shot even with LFG group(only when at the first day slippery was in underground fractal). I do not argue that its annoying but its really not that big of a deal, if its making you so much struggle then kick druid or even chrono or well, if you try to kill a boss for 5 mins then DPS. It all comes down that people think about fractals as "normal" basic things, because they are not, they are END GAME content, so if your group cant handle it, its something bad in the group and not in the instability

Ah now I don't need to dodge in fractals, cool.And yes next time Ill kick druid and crono cus they simply useless as the can't cleanse bird+afcited, birds+fire, and no way druid and crono can outheal birds+outflanked.Wait who on earth runs druid in fractals?

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