Kralk's Defeat And The Charr/Human Treaty

[zolcor.2601]

Given that the Blood Legion's imperator signed the treaty reluctantly, and that a defeated Kralk would lower any problems the Charr Legions have currently, how much do you want to bet on either the Blood Legion or all of the Charr Legions turning on the humans again and starting a new Charr/Human war? Plus I wont be surprised if the next Living World episode takes us the Blood Legion homeland. If I were the game creators and wanted Kralk to follow a specific path, I'd send him flying back to where he was back in the first game.

[Bast.7253]

@zolcor.2601 said:Given that the Blood Legion's imperator signed the treaty reluctantly, and that a defeated Kralk would lower any problems the Charr Legions have currently, how much do you want to bet on either the Blood Legion or all of the Charr Legions turning on the humans again and starting a new Charr/Human war? Plus I wont be surprised if the next Living World episode takes us the Blood Legion homeland. If I were the game creators and wanted Kralk to follow a specific path, I'd send him flying back to where he was back in the first game.

Isn't the treaty more about the Foefire than Kralk?

[zolcor.2601]

I believe it was also a way to give the Charr more resources to spend fighting branded, the Shatterer, the Ascalonian ghosts, and the Flame Legion. Without having to worry about taking Ebonhawke, the Charr can send more soldiers to fight these problems.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"cptaylor.2670" said:Isn't the treaty more about the Foefire than Kralk?

Technically it was about the charr having too many foes. Flame Legion, Foefire ghosts, humans, ogres, and most recently branded. Though the treated basically replaced humans for separatists and renegades. Still, the branded were the "driving nail" that led Malice and Smodur to officially push for the treaty as the biggest active threat.

With the Flame Legion effectively a non-issue as of the Molten Alliance's defeat (by all appearances at least, they never once sprouted up in lore), and branded close to becoming a much smaller issue, and the backing of Separatists (aka Caudecus) being gone causing them to become an effective non-issue, it's entirely possible for the imperator who has been anti-human to take the stage.

Though I suspect that it'd still require cleansing the Foefire, which is entirely possible ever since Rytlock returned.

I'm not convinced that Episode 6 will be taking place where Kralkatorrik slept (placing that as the center would be fairly messing, map placement-wise), but I do feel confident that the peace treaty breaking down could be a plot for Season 5 as we move into another dragon plot, like how Season 3 wrapped up the Kryta plots neatly before moving on to Balthazar and Kralkatorrik; and as I've said before, I feel Season 5 would be a good place to do multiple plots like Season 3 was. Wouldn't be the first I'm wrong either way, so long as it's entertaining enough I don't really care where the plot leads though. But I do hope they focus on clearing up the plot threads left by the core game sooner rather than later. Particularly Malyck, replacements for Z and M, the Foefire ghosts, and the peace treaty.

Especially since they went out of the way to tell us recently that the Renegades remain a problem in Fields of Ruin, despite so many years and Ajax's death passing.

[Teratus.2859]

It's possible but I wouldn't rule out that a lot has changed in the years since the treaty was signed.Relations between Charr and Human have grown a lot in the passing years and many Charr do not consider Humans as a race to be enemies anymore.. same for Humans who do not feel the Charr are enemies either.

If the High Legions did change their stance and started pushing an anti human rhetoric again I expect a lot of Charr would stand against it and if need be fight against it literally.. specially Charr like Rytlock and the other countless Charr soldiers who have stood shoulder to shoulder with Humans and developed battlebonds with them etc.Not to mention all the Charr members of the Vigil, Priory, Order of Whispers, Pact and the Lionguard.. Charr are everywhere these days.We know from Rytlocks Requiem that he regards our PC and all the members of Destiny's Edge and Dragons Watch as his Warband too regardless of their race and I expect a lot of other Charr feel the same way about their non Charr allies as well.

This would certainly be an interesting storyline to explore i'll give you that ^^But I think it's fair to say that if the High Legions did go down that road it would probably end up in a huge Civil War all over again with the Legions being the new Anti Human Renagades and the rest of the Charr fighting for unity like the Legions used to.I think too much has changed in the world for this scenario to come around now though.. at least in Gw2.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I wouldn't really be so sure. Generations of racial tensions will not disappear in a matter of years of some individuals working together. Those in the Pact and Orders will likely remain friendly should the peace treaty officially break down, but a lot of charr in the High Legions, and a lot of soldiers and citizens in Ebonhawke, have been going with the treaty because their superiors/leaders say that it's for the best. Once the reasoning that it's "for the best" disappear, or should those leaders (Bangar) decide otherwise, then the people will bear their hatred at the forefront again. Just like racial hatreds in reality often do.

And racial hatreds and biases take a long time to overcome. We wouldn't have the issues with the Middle East we do today if this weren't the case, were less than a decade of peace all that was needed to maintain peace without an official accord. Just like the conflict and hatreds between humans and charr, conflicts between European/Christian nations and Middle Eastern/Islamic is centuries old, and while there have been decades of peace here and there, none of them held for long. Personally, I don't think they ever will, even if our own melting pot of "Lion's Arch" (USA) ever reaches the point where racial biases becomes dulled into nigh non-existence (we're clearly not at that point). But enough of real life comparisons....

The thing about the "charr are everywhere these days" is that they were everywhere before the peace treaty talks began in 1324 AE. Charr were in LA since its rebirth, they've been in the Vigil since its birth, and they've likely been in the Priory and Whispers for over a century. None of that stopped the war. Nor should it, since those charr aren't dealing with the people of Ebonhawke, and not many are dealing with the people of Kryta. And vice versa - the humans of the Lionguard, Orders, and Pact aren't often interacting with the charr of the Black Citadel, let alone the Blood Citadel. Racial hatred for humanity is probably highest in Blood and Ash Legion homelands. Especially Blood given the Imperator's hatred of humans too.

Whether Anet will go that route though is anyone's guess.

[kasoki.5180]

Wars are far more complex than just racial/ethnic/religious tensions. Actually, most of these tensions actually have roots in something completely unrelated to race/ethnicity/religion etc. Conflicts usually have multiple dimensions and causes, and reducing them to so called clash of civilizations/races/religions is often oversimplifications since it ignores deeper reasons like geopolitics, personal characteristics of state leaders, economic reasons, international community, internal politics of the warring states etc etc. Not saying that these "identity" aspects of the conflicts are non-existent or unimportant, but they are far from being most important or sole reasons behind conflicts.

Racial tensions don't disappear when people work together, they disappear when people get new perspectives, establish new ideals and values or apply them in situations where they previously had not. Which I would argue did happen with many of the Charr and Humans. But whats most important is did their leaders get a new perspective. Again, I would say yes. With only notable exception being Blood legion Imperator.

Third is the question of "international community". Even though there isn't really any type of institutionally organized international community its safe to say that rest of Tyria would be greatly hostile to the idea of Charr invasion. Current situation has brought peace and cooperation to the region. That means development, economic stability, growth and prosperity. Half of the open world tasks/quests are related to entrepreneurs, economy and trade. Game makes and obvious effort to show you how races are intertwined, with Lion's Arch being in the middle of it. This is why issue of Charr invasion is not just question of how "naturally" inclined a certain race is or isn't towards war. They would all be affected by mass destruction of Kryta or Ascalon.

All of Charr suddenly going to war with Humans would be a very bad 180 turn. Not because humans and charr worked together and shed blood together for the last few years. But because it would show how recent events played no part in shaping the collective consciousness of at least Iron Legion charr. And that would be extremely bad writing IMO.

In my opinion I believe that game is going to take is into Charr centered expansion/content. But I think it will be blood vs Others, not Charr vs Humans.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

The only scenario for a Human-Charr war is if the Humans marched to retake Ascalon from the Charr after the Foefire was cleansed. Since the Charr outnumbers the Humans 3-1 and by marching to Ascalon will leave Divinity's Reach unprotected, I really doubt that the Humans will do something suicidal. The Charr has no interest in Kryta, that was the Flame Legions, so even if the treaty expires, Charr will stay within the Ascalon border and Humans will stay within the Krytan border. I just don't see the possibility of war as it stands. They have to throw in an outside influence to stir things up. I doubt racial tension would be believable enough.

[crepuscular.9047]

The charrs probably was never interested in conquering all of the Tyria continent, a fact that they had mutual agreement with the norns due to respect of the prowess of their races, hence the norns let them through their territory during the invasion into human territories.

their invasion extended all the way down to Orr and west into Kryta was most likely because their chase to cut down all humans in sight rather than conquering territories, due to their hatred for taking Ascalon area from them in the first place

it's been over 250 years, there is no claim to the Ascalon crown, and there's probably a lot of breedings with the Krytans, the only leftovers are the ebon vanguard, their purpose was to save the Ascalonians from invading charr rather than to take back Ascalonthe Krytan ministry probably will be reluctant to provide any assistance to risk and an all out war to charr again, so there is really no reason for them to get into a war again

as for the Charrs, I'm sure they can live with a thorn in their sight

any raidings by either parties, the leaders probably come up with 'petty bandits' as the excuse to tune down the hostilities

[ThatOddOne.4387]

The southern Shiverpeaks were not the norn's territory during the charr's attempted invasion of Kryta. They were further north at the time.

[Narcemus.1348]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:The southern Shiverpeaks were not the norn's territory during the charr's attempted invasion of Kryta. They were further north at the time.

The charr came through the far shiverpeaks where the norn were at the time, and then came south into Kryta. It is told to us through the main story of Eye of the North, I believe. Here is a wiki link, though I don't see the actual source material.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_invasion

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:The southern Shiverpeaks were not the norn's territory during the charr's attempted invasion of Kryta. They were further north at the time.

The charr came through the far shiverpeaks where the norn were at the time, and then came south into Kryta. It is told to us through the main story of Eye of the North, I believe. Here is a wiki link, though I don't see the actual source material.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_invasion

It wasn't brought up in GW1- all indications there were that norn and charr were in open conflict whenever the charr came up into the mountains. It came from the Movement of the World.

[Trise.2865]

In the words of one Pyre Fierceshot: "A poor warrior abandons his best weapons." If most of the Charr's enemies, including three Elder Dragons, were defeated by "wielding" diplomacy and working together with the Humans (and the other races), then what sense does it make to turn that weapon back on themselves?

Granted, splinter groups on both sides still exist, and the peace will be tenuous at best for quite a long time, but quelling rebellions and smoothing relations are FAR easier than fighting prolonged wars.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:The southern Shiverpeaks were not the norn's territory during the charr's attempted invasion of Kryta. They were further north at the time.

The charr came through the far shiverpeaks where the norn were at the time, and then came south into Kryta. It is told to us through the main story of Eye of the North, I believe. Here is a wiki link, though I don't see the actual source material.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_invasion

It wasn't brought up in GW1- all indications there were that norn and charr were in open conflict whenever the charr came up into the mountains. It came from the

Movement of the World.

The charr reaching Kryta via the Far Shiverpeaks was brought up in GW1, though the whole "norn-charr peace" bit wasn't. Truth be told though, it was implied since Prophecies that the charr reached Kryta via north of Borlis Pass:

The Shiverpeaks rise up over ten-thousand feet above sea level. In the shadow of this enormous mountain range lie the kingdoms of Kryta to the west and Ascalon to the east. Borlis Pass is the closest travelable passage through the mountains to the city of Rin. The next closest lies much farther north, deep in Charr territory.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Borlis_Pass_%28outpost%29

Later on, in the Bonus Mission Pass, we see the charr invading from north of Kryta; while it technically got released two months after the PCGamer magazine that had The Movement of the World, it had to have been in development before then, so the two were likely worked on simultaneously.

It wasn't explicitly stated, but by the two instances, it showed to be the case.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

More war, except conflict of interest causes the population to segregate into rivaling factions, mixed race versus extra big Seperatists/Renegades and more. The entire world will become Fields Of Ruin 2.5.

Congratulations, I just pitched the plot to a potential guild wars 3, and it actually involves guilds warring.

[Weindrasi.3805]

I hope we get to encounter Bangar and Malice in-game soon, and see an expansion of the charr territories available for us to explore. Even if Bangar did decide to wage war on humanity, I don't think Blood Legion as a whole would follow him. Rytlock, the Blood soldiers in Lake Doric, and other Blood tribunes and centurions throughout the world are very pro-human, pro-treaty--and they would speak out against Bangar. If Bangar and his loyalists did wage war on humanity, it would cause a civil war within the Blood Legion, which Bangar would be doomed to lose--since the pro-human Bloods (probably led by Rytlock) would have Iron, Ash, and PC assistance. If Arenanet decided to take the story that direction, we'd probably see the Legions moving to kill Bangar and put Rytlock in his place.

[Castigator.3470]

@"Weindrasi.3805" said:I hope we get to encounter Bangar and Malice in-game soon, and see an expansion of the charr territories available for us to explore. Even if Bangar did decide to wage war on humanity, I don't think Blood Legion as a whole would follow him. Rytlock, the Blood soldiers in Lake Doric, and other Blood tribunes and centurions throughout the world are very pro-human, pro-treaty--and they would speak out against Bangar. If Bangar and his loyalists did wage war on humanity, it would cause a civil war within the Blood Legion, which Bangar would be doomed to lose--since the pro-human Bloods (probably led by Rytlock) would have Iron, Ash, and PC assistance. If Arenanet decided to take the story that direction, we'd probably see the Legions moving to kill Bangar and put Rytlock in his place.

Yes, Rytlock would probably take one for the team. After Requiem: Rytlock edition, he certainly has come to some conclusions. And it also gave us some information about Imperator Bangar. Despite being generally aloof, the Blood Imperator is pretty smart, so taking him down might be more difficult than taking Joko was.Here's what I mean with taking one for the team: Rytlock, owing to his position as Blood Legion Imperator would no longer be able to go on adventures with his friends. He'd have to lead a nation of millions of charr with their characteristic red armours. The paperwork he hates would become an inevitable part of his life, as would meetings with Tribunes, who likely have their own agenda and may or may not try to replace him. However, he might be able to repair his relationship with the stone warband and the Commander could count on Blood Legion support.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Weindrasi.3805" said:I hope we get to encounter Bangar and Malice in-game soon, and see an expansion of the charr territories available for us to explore. Even if Bangar did decide to wage war on humanity, I don't think Blood Legion as a whole would follow him. Rytlock, the Blood soldiers in Lake Doric, and other Blood tribunes and centurions throughout the world are very pro-human, pro-treaty--and they would speak out against Bangar. If Bangar and his loyalists did wage war on humanity, it would cause a civil war within the Blood Legion, which Bangar would be doomed to lose--since the pro-human Bloods (probably led by Rytlock) would have Iron, Ash, and PC assistance. If Arenanet decided to take the story that direction, we'd probably see the Legions moving to kill Bangar and put Rytlock in his place.

Keep in mind that an Imperator going against the treaty would also draw in remaining Renegades to his forces (as per Xeniph we know they're still a threat in Fields of Ruin), and any who held resentment but kept going in Iron and Ash would be more likely to defect into Blood for this. I also recall it being said or at least suggested that Blood is the largest of the three legions, too. So even if only half of Blood joined Bangar and non of the other legions did, it wouldn't be a case of Bangar fighting a force five time his forces' size.

[CETheLucid.3964]

Between the dragons still being a world ending threat, the Foefire curse remaining and the Flame Legion still being a thing (less so these days but they remain) I don't think it's in the cards for Bangar to act out on his racial hatred.

He's smart enough to keep it in check.

That said if Bangar really just has to rock the boat against better judgement, as Konig said, the Blood Legion is the larger legion of the high legions and it would attract all charr who share anti-human sentiments. It would still be an uphill battle however.

Iron and Ash as a whole wouldn't just take it sitting down and the rest of the world would rally behind them. Blood would be isolated. They'd probably be able to survive like that even, but they wouldn't 'win' anything for it.

Everything with regards to the treaty has been going well so there's no catalyst there to act on. If humanity did some organized betrayal of the treaty, certainly then.

As of yet there's more incentive to reap the rewards of cooperation as opposed to acting out in strife for nothing. It would be foolish and could cost him everything. You don't become imperator by being an irrational fool.

Blood Legion is the legion of revolutionaries and heroes. Pyre Fierceshot and his daughter Kalla were Blood. That the charr are free of the Flame Legion's false theocracy and that female charr can fight at all is of their efforts in the world.

I'd bank on such a hero or revolutionary taking out Bangar well before any such ill-fated effort by a Bangar that went and lost his mind came to fruition. I'll give Bangar more credit than that.

If racist human nobles can keep their hate in check, a Blood Legion imperator can manage as much.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:Between the dragons still being a world ending threat, the Foefire curse remaining and the Flame Legion still being a thing (less so these days but they remain) I don't think it's in the cards for Bangar to act out on his racial hatred.

He's smart enough to keep it in check.

I mean, once Kralk is taken care of, the only Elder Dragon that's a world ending threat would be the deep sea dragon who's MIA in terms of Central Tyria activity to such a point no one but the ellusive largos can really communicate how dangerous that it is. And Flame Legion have been hit such a heavy blow that they've not been heard of since Scarlet. Sure we haven't had too many opportunities to return, but during The World Summit, Smodur's primary issue is the ghosts (even after Rytlock's ritual), while the branded aren't ever mentioned and the Flame Legion are mentioned as an afterthought to said ghosts.

Which is why I suggest that this plot would only take place after cleansing the Foefire ritual, which Rytlock proved is not only possible but on the right track.

Iron and Ash as a whole wouldn't just take it sitting down and the rest of the world would rally behind them. Blood would be isolated.

Eh, I'm not so sure that the rest of the world would rally behind them. Norn are the closest but too individualistic to provide a significant effort. The Pact deals only in dragons. Kryta is likely still recovering from the White Mantle civil war, asura are similar to the norn in that they're too individualistic to provide a significant effort but also hit the issue of being distant, and the sylvari are both distant and likely still recovering from the events of HoT which brought most of their kind to its knees (and the Pale Tree only began to wake with S3, too). Awakened and Elonians have no reason to assist and are similarly still recovering from having toppled Joko, and the Olmakhan are few in number and rather against legion life in general so their assistance may be hesitant if existent.

The Orders are really the only ones in a position to help in the end. And they no doubt took a massive beating from All or Nothing. In fact, the same can be said for every faction that provided support - even the Iron Legion. We don't know the fate of Mia Kindleshot, one of the more famous Iron Legion tribunes.

TL;DR: Thanks to constant civil strife and Elder Dragon conflicts, pretty much everyone but the Ash and Blood Legions are suffering in some non-insignificant manner. If Blood / Renegades were to ever have an opportunity, it would be now / once Kralkatorrik dies, especially if they first pressure Rytlock to cleanse the Foefire ghosts.

If racist human nobles can keep their hate in check, a Blood Legion imperator can manage as much.

Well, I mean... Caudecus didn't. And Bangar is outright described as a "wildcard" character, while Caudecus was the cunning and subterfugal foe.

[derd.6413]

there's this theory floating around that we could use the searing in some way against kralk, if this turns out true it could serve as the catalyst for some charr to declare war.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Well, I mean... Caudecus didn't. And Bangar is outright described as a "wildcard" character, while Caudecus was the cunning and subterfugal foe.

It's not outside the realm of possibility.

If he really wanted to he'd probably succeed in forcefully seceding from the legion alliance, telling the humans to screw off, and get to doing his own isolationist thing in Blood lands.

I'm still of the mind it's not something you'd do unprovoked with no reasonable gain even if he personally hates humans. I'm not so certain he hates humans enough to be Caudecus levels of crazy about it.

@derd.6413 said:there's this theory floating around that we could use the searing in some way against kralk, if this turns out true it could serve as the catalyst for some charr to declare war.

That was a thing in the Zhaitan plot. Legion tanks, Searing ritual, and contacting Grenth's Reaper if I remember right. It wasn't an Ascalon level Searing event and it was a viable option because we didn't have to worry about destroying an already destroyed Orr.

The High Legions wouldn't care that we used that on Zhaitan in Orr. Now if we brought up such a suggestion in Ascalon I think everyone, even the humans would agree, not such a good idea.

Then again we do keep the original Searing Cauldron around in Iron Marches for some reason and while local charr want to see it destroyed, some Priory types (a human in particular) want to see it preserved and kept around.

You'd think they'd at least compromise and let the Priory take it to their facillity in Lornar's Pass.

[derd.6413]

@CETheLucid.3964 said:

@derd.6413 said:there's this theory floating around that we could use the searing in some way against kralk, if this turns out true it could serve as the catalyst for some charr to declare war.

That was a thing in the Zhaitan plot. Legion tanks, Searing ritual, and contacting Grenth's Reaper if I remember right. It wasn't an Ascalon level Searing event and it was a viable option because we didn't have to worry about destroying an already destroyed Orr.

The High Legions wouldn't care that we used that on Zhaitan in Orr. Now if we brought up such a suggestion in Ascalon I think everyone, even the humans would agree, not such a good idea.

Then again we do keep the original Searing Cauldron around in Iron Marches for some reason and while local charr want to see it destroyed, some Priory types (a human in particular) want to see it preserved and kept around.

You'd think they'd at least compromise and let the Priory take it to their facillity in Lornar's Pass.

that's not what i'm talking about, the theory is that there's a connection between kralk and the searing because of the visual similarities between brand crystals and searing crystals

[CETheLucid.3964]

@derd.6413 said:that's not what i'm talking about, the theory is that there's a connection between kralk and the searing because of the visual similarities between brand crystals and searing crystals

I'm inclined to think that's a superficial similarity. But stranger things have happened I guess.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

There is no inkling of a connection between Kralkatorrik and the Searing, and a Searing-esque solution to Kralkatorrik coming out of left field with no prior set-up would just be bizarre.