GW2 (MMORPG's in general) & Mental Health — Guild Wars 2 Forums

GW2 (MMORPG's in general) & Mental Health

First, some disclaimers:
1. I am not currently, nor even recently have been, in danger of harming myself or others (this has to be said for legal reasons)
2. This post has been on my mind for a while, and if the mods feel something is wrong with it, I'm fine with it's removal, but would appreciate the opportunity to correct what is wrong. This is an important subject, and I'd rather edit it so it is acceptable than just throw it out completely (not that I have any intent for it to violate community standards)
3. While the examples given and some of the subject content is related to WvW, this post is being placed in general because it's not specifically about WvW or any given game mode.

There is no particular blame to be placed in this situation that I'm going to relate here. There's not "this one mesmer" or "that change in game mechanics", or "ragerage anet rage" (yeah, I know, that's my norm).
A little history that I feel is relevant. I first signed up just before Halloween 2012, right after launch, and have played around 7000hours. Overall, for the amount of time I've played GW2, I am pretty much an average level player. I've done dungeons, one raid, and tier 2 fractals, but beyond that, my primary activity is open world PvE and map completion (currently at 16). I am also a crafting oriented player (not just in GW2).
The love of crafting is what got me into trouble.

The best skins in the game, excluding gem store items, usually have a bit of crafting involved, and a lot of them involve collections. If you choose to craft legendary weapons, this is no different (even more-so now that you can craft the precursors). Many years ago, world map completion required the maps in World vs. World (three alpine and EBG). I was fortunate enough when I started to choose a server that changed colors a bit, so while there was some waiting involved, I was eventually able to get world completion done 5 times under that model. This got me accustomed to using WvW as a game mode, even though I detest PvP. Years of playing Eve Online taught me 2 basic principles with PvP: First, I will never be proficient at it to the point where I am the victor. Second, because of the first thing I simply just need to sit down and let them kill me, do their corpse dancing, and respawn when I can.
WvW did have the zerg aspect, and with that I've been able to get the maps done, and grind my way through obtaining several Gift of Battles for crafting legendary weapons.

When Arenanet removed the map requirement, the only reasons I had at that point to enter WvW were the Gift of Battle, and, later, the longbow skins. I know that most average players and even the below average players can crank out the reward tracks to where it takes maybe a day to get a Gift of Battle, but, I am not that good. Changes to WvW have affected me a lot over the years, both good and bad. The only time in my experience in WvW that I ever felt like I was useful to any given group, and not just "a zergling" was during the "no downed-state" week, because as a ranger I could actually take people out from a keep wall.

Fast forwarding to late 2018. I was in an okay space in RL and in GW2. While I've never been the most exuberant person, I was just cruising along. My wife and I decided that we would craft Dusk, Twilight, Dawn, Sunrise, and Eternity. This required two Gift of Battles. Around the time we finished obtaining those, I had started to notice that I spent a LOT more time dying in WvW than progressing. After we finished unlocking Eternity, my wife chose to leave GW2 for the most part, other than doing dailies occasionally, and mostly logging in for the log-in rewards. She was burned out because she was trying to also finish her bachelors degree.

My mistake was that out of being stubborn, I chose to try and get a third Gift of Battle on my own, and to attempt to get the 700+ skirmish tickets I needed to unlock two longbow skins.

I can't recall, and perhaps this is a blessing, the chain of events that put me into that very dark place, but sometime late last year deep into the Pacific/SEA timezones, I logged off one night and realized that for a period of a week or more, I was logging out of WvW with a very very strong desire to kill myself. It may in fact be that lack of options to do such a thing played a part in my decision to make sure I got help, as well as to quit GW2 for a while, but I can't really psychoanalyze myself to that point without the conclusions potentially being incorrect.

To be clear, I am not writing this out to try and say that "WvW is so bad, I wanted to kill myself!". There are way too many factors involved with the situation for there to be just one bad guy in this scenario. Did the current state of the game mode contribute to it? Possibly. It's kind of humiliating when you're reduced to nothing but bag delivery and fully aware that it's because you simply don't have the skills to make it with the current mechanics. And yes, there's something to be said about this being the only way to obtain a Gift of Battle.

This is, again, not really about the specifics of why I reached that low point, but I do believe this is something that should be spoken of openly, because while my experience is specific to WvW, it does not mean that there isn't someone else out there who has been where I have been because of Raids, or because of Dungeons, or because of Open World, etc. Among hundreds of thousands of players, you cannot come up with a prediction on what will cause someone to fall into a pit.

The very nature of almost every game in history is to present a challenge. Whether that challenge is presented by another player, or computer code, or natural obstacles, etc., it is a challenge. With challenges come both success and failure. When you add rewards for success, there is a natural increase to the desire for succeeding in overcoming the challenge, but at the same time, for a portion of people, this also intensifies the "pain" associated with failure. Whether the pain is emotional distress, feelings of humiliation, inadequacy, or whatever, the fact that these feelings exist means there is also a probability that some people will begin to spiral downward because of them.

For people who actually care about other players in a game, it is important to recognize the signs that someone may be headed that way. Not everyone is going to say "I hate this! I hate myself! I'm going to end my life!" (in fact that's very unlikely to happen). Some suffer in silence, and quietly disappear (sadly, some never return because they follow through on their feelings). The urgent question in this is "what are the signs"? We don't have a "mood indicator" above our characters heads, etc.

The truth is, the signs really can't be categorized when it comes to the more subtle indicators. Obsessing over certain things may be one. A drastic change in online time and in a certain game mode could be one indication, or for people in guilds, a change in ones attitude can be another (though this one is a bit more obvious). Yet both of those examples are things that could easily be due to something completely different. In the end, the initial conclusion might be that there is nothing that is a good indicator, and this conclusion can then lead to an issue of "we can't do anything". This is wrong. You can do something. It's just something that has been slowly disappearing from society in general .

Love.

-Rescue that downed person.
-Rez that player at the bottom of that cliff, even though "they should know better."
-Tell them if you think their character looks amazing.
-Tip your mesmer, commander, guide.
-Kill the trash mobs before harvesting if someone else is already fighting them.
-Help players find the answers to their questions instead of just saying "wiki it" in map chat.
-Give someone directions on how to find something, and then offer to help them if it's an event they need to complete.
-Think about whether or not running through that trash mob is going to train it into someone else that is not currently in it's aggro range.
-Thank someone for helping you.

There are dozens of things that can be added to this list, and I know a few players that could certainly add to it because this is their core attitude in the game.

It is so easy today to think only of ourselves. It is so easy to not care whether or not that dead player who "should know better" isn't just a player who "should know better". People make mistakes. That dead guy may be in the middle of a real life crisis, and in a dark place mentally, laying at the bottom on the rocks, looking at his characters broken body, pondering if that might be a good idea in RL. Yes, you're more likely to drop 5 precursors in a row from trash mobs, but never assume that you know.

I know this. Because I've been there. I have survived because I have a long history with mental health that is not always shiny, but because of this history I also was aware of my situation enough to know it was time to take a break and get some help in RL.

I know this isn't well written, I rarely write well. I'm writing from my heart. I'm writing this here because out of all the games available, and in spite of some individuals, GW2 does have a community that is generally more player friendly and helpful than other communities.

That's .. all. I guess. it's an abrupt end. I'm not a speech writer. :)

tl;dr: Love.

Soul-binding needs to be allowed to die gracefully. It has expired. It is long past it's time to become a footnote in the history of gaming.

Comments

  • Thanks for posting. If your effort helps a single other player recognize the signs in themselves, it will have been worth it.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Danikat.8537Danikat.8537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Whilst I think your reaction was extreme I'm not surprised you found yourself logging out and feeling deeply unhappy. You set yourself a huge challenge (seriously Eternity is probably the most time consuming item in the entire game) and having just completed the part you found most difficult and least enjoyable (getting the Gift of Battle) you then set out to do it again, and set another hugely demanding goal requiring a lot of time in the same game mode. That's enough to bring anyone down and honestly I'm surprised you got as far as you did before it began to affect you. (I want to say I'm impressed you got that far, but under the circumstances I really don't think that word is appropriate...I'm sure there's another word which implies the same thing without suggesting it's something to aspire to, but I can't think of it right now.)

    Sadly I think your experience is not uncommon. I've been talking about this a lot with people on the Elder Scrolls Online forum because they've recently ramped up their 'festivals' and special events so there's one happening every few weeks (including one scheduled to last 5 weeks) and because they've previously been very short and rare players have 'trained' themselves to grind it as much as possible, for as long as possible, to maximise the rewards. Unsurprisingly a lot of them are now feeling incredibly burned out and really not looking forward to another 10 months of that experience but also struggling to pace themselves when the possible rewards are right there encouraging them to keep going.

    Although you're right that games are designed to present a challenge and MMOs in particular are designed to encourage players to keep going, keep looking for the next challenge and the next thing, and the next thing to keep us playing I highly doubt the developers want people ending up so burned out that they quit the game completely, or worse make themselves sick trying to keep going.

    However it's a very difficult thing for developers to regulate because everyone is different. What one person finds incredibly stressful another may actually enjoy (for example I'm one of the weirdos who likes games where I die on my first, and maybe second, attempt to kill the boss and have to re-think my tactics to get it right) and what one person will struggle to ever finish another will blitz in a day and complain they're bored. It's absolutely worth developers considering how a variety of different people may feel but I think it's also on us as players to look out for those times when we're pushing ourselves into something we don't actually enjoy and to take steps to put a stop to that - as you have.

    I've definitely made that mistake before and now I always try to catch myself before I start. For example just before writing this post I got a 'no deaths' character killed making a stupid mistake and I actually came to the forum to give myself some time before deciding how to proceed - did I start over or did I give it up at least for tonight and see how I felt about carrying on in the morning. Previously I would have forced myself to start over immediately and resented having to do all the same stuff again.

    I'm impressed (and I mean it this time) that you managed to recognise what was happening and put a stop to it. At the risk of sounding like a rehab sponsor that's the first step in being able to address it, so it doesn't keep happening.

    Whatever you decide to do, whether you stick with GW2 or not, I hope you're able to find something you do enjoy to focus on. :)

    "You can run like a river, Till you end up in the sea,
    And you run till night is black, And keep on going in your dreams,
    And you know all the long while, It's the journey that you seek,
    It's the miles of moving forward, With the wind beneath your wings."

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    I would say it's a symptom of the times. Not too long ago I used to read a lot more about other people's lives online, they would pour themselves at strangers because that gave them a sense of not being alone. The world has some pretty dark places, some societies are riddled with stress (some more than others), and in a perhaps tragic twist, people are increasingly looking towards entertainment as a way to escape from it.

    Like an alcoholic that drinks only to forget, we have people who delve online, maybe obsessively, as a way to forget their reality. For some of these people, "winning" in a game is their sole measure of success in an otherwise bleak existence. These are the people at highest risk of committing suicide, specially when a change in game threatens their safety net (that is, their perceived chance of winning).

    However, life isn't this bad. Or at least, not everybody believes it just is that bad. Regardless of how bleak humanity and the future might be, a person who has a more cheerful outlook on life will have a healthier life, even if it is an illusion (or not). Yet, changing one's outlook on life is not easy at all, it can take some people years of therapy, and few people have the willingness (or resources) to undergo that.

    As for the people mocking others and being bile to you? Who's to say the very reason they are this way is because this is their only way to feel worth something in this game?

    It may just be that we have really stressed players raging at each other in a sort of zero sum game, where for one to feel good, someone else must feel miserable. The way out of this is to change one's mentality about life, not an easy task.

    Or who knows, nobody really knows the story behind some random player's actions.

    If you can afford to be kind, do so. Not enough people can.

    Though, I wouldn't be sure how exactly you can be kind while slaughtering and bathing in the blood of your enemies. ^_^;

  • MoriMoriMori.5349MoriMoriMori.5349 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2019

    A game addiction, like any other addiction, stems from personal unresolved issues. Mentally healthy people quite rarely end in an obsessive state like this. Game didn't do anything wrong, without you being so much willing to delve into it and stick to it, it wouldn't keep you playing it to such extent. That much obsession with accumulating some digital goodies in a project which won't (realistically) even last for a while, doesn't seem to me like very healthy behavior, in the first place. The rest seem more like the development of a "disease" (let's call it that) which was present before you even started playing. At that point I'm doing psychoanalysis over TCP/IP, so let's stop at this.

  • mauried.5608mauried.5608 Member ✭✭✭

    There seems to be especially in this game the concept that challenge = entertainment.
    ie if something isnt challenging , its not entertaining.
    I play the game purely for the fun , not to be challenged.
    This means that its not necessary to log in everyday, or spend 1000s of hours trying to achieve some kind of in game outcome.
    Life is far too short to spend it playing MMOs all the time.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The world has become a pretty dark place, some societies are riddled with stress (some more than others), and in a perhaps tragic twist, people are increasingly looking towards entertainment as a way to escape from it.

    That makes me laugh every time I hear it. During the last 100 years world has become so immensely better, that it does look like a pure miracle. A typical average citizen of the developed part of the world has quality of life kings of the past couldn't even imagine, when it comes to the most parts of their everyday life. Never ever they have been living in such secure and comfort environment. If anything really has changed is that people become less and less psychologically stable and resilient, capable of facing reality without breaking into tears - what again is direct consequences of (comparatively) extremely high life standards and super-secure environment.

    That's the spirit! However, mental issues aren't related that directly to medical advances itself or life expectation, otherwise they would have diminished ever since after the second world war. Instead, the number of people who need help doesn't dwindle, it's just their problems seem to change.

    Having life threatening issues (such as disease and murder) doesn't seem to correlate as highly to mental health, whereas a sense of belonging and purpose in life do (hence why the levels of depression in modern cities by folks who feel like they don't fit in).

    In other words, mental health doesn't has to do with quality of life as much as the perceived value of one's life.

  • Puma.3645Puma.3645 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    im a really freaking depressed person but ive never had a game make me want to kill myself..other things??yeah..but gw2??

  • Neural.1824Neural.1824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Danikat.8537 said:
    Whilst I think your reaction was extreme I'm not surprised you found yourself logging out and feeling deeply unhappy. You set yourself a huge challenge (seriously Eternity is probably the most time consuming item in the entire game) and having just completed the part you found most difficult and least enjoyable (getting the Gift of Battle) you then set out to do it again, and set another hugely demanding goal requiring a lot of time in the same game mode. That's enough to bring anyone down and honestly I'm surprised you got as far as you did before it began to affect you. (I want to say I'm impressed you got that far, but under the circumstances I really don't think that word is appropriate...I'm sure there's another word which implies the same thing without suggesting it's something to aspire to, but I can't think of it right now.)

    I understand your meaning here, but I disagree that this was an issue of too much challenge, but too much ..hmm... tenacity in completing a given challenge (specifically obtaining a third Gift of Battle for use in a weapon that I had not, at the time, chosen to make yet). The drive to excel collided with my personal skill limitations. As crafting goes there isn't really, to me, any challenge that I see as "too much" beyond whether or not I have the patience and time to complete it. I have played Eve Online on and off for a decade because of the insane depth and variety of the industry system, including solo building freighters. The specific component here for me was the PvP aspect of WvW (again, this is relative to me specifically and is not a condemnation of WvW as a mode in general. I do have opinions on that, but that's not relative here). WvW is just my Achilles heel.

    Sadly I think your experience is not uncommon. I've been talking about this a lot with people on the Elder Scrolls Online forum because they've recently ramped up their 'festivals' and special events so there's one happening every few weeks (including one scheduled to last 5 weeks) and because they've previously been very short and rare players have 'trained' themselves to grind it as much as possible, for as long as possible, to maximise the rewards. Unsurprisingly a lot of them are now feeling incredibly burned out and really not looking forward to another 10 months of that experience but also struggling to pace themselves when the possible rewards are right there encouraging them to keep going.

    Burning out is another issue in which I would tentatively say that simply being kind to people would go a long way to help, but yes, it can be a trigger for the depression and suicidal thoughts that some people fall into. Though I would point out, for those reading, not just you, that burnout can be it's own animal too, and doesn't necessarily mean an individual is having a mental health crisis. Some people just need a break :)

    Although you're right that games are designed to present a challenge and MMOs in particular are designed to encourage players to keep going, keep looking for the next challenge and the next thing, and the next thing to keep us playing I highly doubt the developers want people ending up so burned out that they quit the game completely, or worse make themselves sick trying to keep going.

    That's a given for sure. Burned out players, as far as anything I've ever read to this day, do not increase revenue. So even from my normal jaded "business only" standpoint, yeah, I completely agree there.

    However it's a very difficult thing for developers to regulate because everyone is different. What one person finds incredibly stressful another may actually enjoy (for example I'm one of the weirdos who likes games where I die on my first, and maybe second, attempt to kill the boss and have to re-think my tactics to get it right) and what one person will struggle to ever finish another will blitz in a day and complain they're bored. It's absolutely worth developers considering how a variety of different people may feel but I think it's also on us as players to look out for those times when we're pushing ourselves into something we don't actually enjoy and to take steps to put a stop to that - as you have.

    This is also true, though it is a bit too focused on the seeking the source of the problem. My point in bringing up WvW was to draw from my own experience to point more specifically at the solution where players can be empowered to do something about it themselves, without demanding that games change. :)

    I'm impressed (and I mean it this time) that you managed to recognise what was happening and put a stop to it. At the risk of sounding like a rehab sponsor that's the first step in being able to address it, so it doesn't keep happening.

    I am, have been, and always be both an introvert, and an outcast. :) Learning to spot such things early on was a point of self preservation. :) Thank you though. :)

    Whatever you decide to do, whether you stick with GW2 or not, I hope you're able to find something you do enjoy to focus on. :)

    Oh I'm staying around when I have time. I haven't finished Pharus yet, and I have at least one character that does not have world map completion. I took a break for a couple months to step back and talk to the important people in my real life (spouse, doctor, etc.). As I stated in another recent thread somewhere, I usually am here when I'm bored. Joined my old guild so that I can use the guild hall instead of going into WvW at all when "WvW big spender" is the daily, etc.

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    Though, I wouldn't be sure how exactly you can be kind while slaughtering and bathing in the blood of your enemies. ^_^;

    That is something that has been lost for the most part in society, I believe. Consider playing a game of volleyball on the beach with friends, or a game of football on a field with a group of other people from your neighborhood. With rare exception, the challenge of the game is taken on with great fervor, but perhaps beyond some friendly jeers, the opposing teams are out there to have fun, and those who win are not lording it over those who lost, nor are those who lost trying to start fights or verbally abusing people. In video games, I have seen the same. I've participated in multiplayer games where it was a melee free-for-all, or strategic, etc. It is completely possible to play something like WvW and yet maintain good sportsmanship. The reasons it doesn't happen that way not is because society in general threw out good sportsmanship and replaced it. The glory of playing the game was replaced with the glory of winning, and, in my opinion, things went down hill from there.

    Soul-binding needs to be allowed to die gracefully. It has expired. It is long past it's time to become a footnote in the history of gaming.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    Warning: Somewhat negative post ahead.

    To be honest, this game used to be alot better about mental and physical health. it feels like over the years, the developers stopped caring that anything other than able-bodied, neurotypical people exist.. for example, the game has become really hard to play for those of us with vision problems due to all the flashing effects, despite probably hundreds of threads being posted on the subject, nothing was ever done about it.,

    People thinking "its because the players aren't better to each other" runs the risk of making them feel even worse. Be as good to other people as you can, but don't see kindness as the magic carrot to chase that will fix the critical flaws in the game, like having virtually no accessibility, or encouraging excessive grinds for shinies. The only way that will ever change is if they hire consultants who understand player health concerns.

    I'm not here to complain, and I do agree with you, that everyone needs to be alot nicer to each other. However, its also important to recognise that some games are more toxic than others, and alot of the time that has everything to do with poor development decisions.

    Community wellness is not a band-aid for the lack of professional oversight.

    Daisuki[SUKI] Founder | Mains Mariyuuna, Water mage |+
    Akarissa, Auratashi, Hanamariko, Kanasuki, Kokonomori, Korisaki, Manakuro, Sarehtori, Terakura, Yukianna
    Alice Ryven, Alisha Kei, Baxia Tres, Caelia Flamestrike, Kiryka Darkwillow, Rikka Rowe, Thea Lux

  • MidnightX.6294MidnightX.6294 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    @Neural.1824 said:
    -Rescue that downed person.
    -Rez that player at the bottom of that cliff, even though "they should know better."
    -Tell them if you think their character looks amazing.
    -Tip your mesmer, commander, guide.
    -Kill the trash mobs before harvesting if someone else is already fighting them.
    -Help players find the answers to their questions instead of just saying "wiki it" in map chat.
    -Give someone directions on how to find something, and then offer to help them if it's an event they need to complete.
    -Thank someone for helping you.

    There are dozens of things that can be added to this list, and I know a few players that could certainly add to it because this is their core attitude in the game.

    These points are of course based on the individual player. This community has some nice people and ... some not-so-nice-people.
    But i can tell, after ~ 6 years of playing, that the comunity hasnt changed the behavior much - and in a good way!
    I still see people doing these things to others
    I still behave like this too
    I still experience those things because of others
    this love has never been gone, and never will. i also dont feel that love is decreasing or increasing. everyone has it, some more some less. its just .... people.
    (sry for bad english)

    Nothing to see here - move along.

  • Biff.5312Biff.5312 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    I suspect a much more widespread issue with MMOs is the feeling of uselessness - eventually almost everyone asks themselves "Why am I wasting my life on goals that don't translate to real life benefits?"
    I think GW2 is better than most when it comes to affording every player challenges that are possible to overcome.
    As for getting depressed about not doing well at something, this could happen in any pursuit. Say you try to learn guitar and find you aren't good at it. It would have the same impact. The difference is that for some reason the bar for how good a player is expected to be in GW2 is set by the very best players in the world. Everyone's expected to adopt their builds/tactics, and to perform as well as they do - or they're berated. I can't think of any other sort of contest (sports, board games, etc.) where everyone HAS to be as good as the best or else they're considered kitten.
    So while I think there are elements of the game that can contribute to feelings of depression, I don't think they're worse than in any other arena, and the causes are mostly not due to the game itself but rather to outside, uncontrollable elements such as other players' rudeness.
    I laud your call for more courtesy in the game. It's something everyone should aspire to.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    I would say it's any game; PC, console or even phones, not MMOs-specific issue. The aspect of PvP/Grinding offers challenging aspects and for we humans hate losing as much as winning while also winning a lot gets boring.

    I started playing GW2 July last year after investing all my play-time in League of Legends since end of season 1 till mid season 8 then I quit because I just couldn't get that feeling of 7-8 years of playing and I am still stuck in a specific elo, my skill level and role I played wasn't meant to carry enough at a point. There have been days when I might rage at even the mistakes I make farming waves (NPCs and terrible timing or managing). Having all these factors combined put me in a state of, why am I still doing it and do I really enjoy that anymore, and the more I try to cast a blind eye to these questions, the more the thoughts consume me. The game across the 8 years had ups and downs, the joy of finally leaving a division to the rage of stopping to play for a while, till it was last season where my skill and my class in terms of balance were literally not enough. I couldn't bring myself to enjoy the game anymore, no matter the modes that might get released or changes to my role. I always played ranked games with many fears before I quit... in my head; players, match-ups, picks and bans, etc. Now add on that the lovely surely-not-toxic-community that gets you penalized or shift blame on whoever they want for literally anything with cherry-picked choice of words which is nothing I have ever experienced in GW2 to reach half that extent. Games weren't meant for cursing and that stupid stuff going around. At first I was enjoying ranked games, then I had that fear, then I couldn't care less and gave out that laugh of 'this is funny' mixed with 'please get me out of this game', which expressed my mental health issues. Is this why we play a game? If yes, then having these issues differ nothing than real life issues because you're now forced to do this stuff, you no longer enjoy it. It's only there to pass the time. You need a change. As of now, you're most likely experiencing an obnoxious forced IRL thing but through a machine and an imaginary world. This is caused by having everything or losing too much accompanied by unwanted emotions, or no progress... What would make us humans feel any joy if there is no more progress accompanied with what we do, there is nothing that rewards that anymore, continuing would cause this thought to exist even more and more, thus, there needs to be stopping to re-think the overall situation and the main reason behind playing a 'videogame'.

    GW2 was my pick for something to progress through since LoL was done to me in terms of having what I need, or the progress no longer exists filled with the fears before every game. To be honest, I won't be on the hunt for any other never-ending grind game after GW2. I would be more of a story-based console games player (once the story is over, it's all done, just the emotions that come after), there's no attachment. Investing the time to learn everything as I did in LoL would probably not happen in any other game.

    My advice would be; stop if you need a break. This is not a real life urgent situation. Make use of the free time more efficiently. Once a game is accompanied by anxiety, depression or any other mental health issue, this is no longer a game. It hurts you more than you think.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I really do hope that you are in a better place. I also hope that your words can help others.

  • Neural.1824Neural.1824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    I have been through a similar experience with a truly rude, immature, sexist and racist community: that of CS:GO. As a woman, I would feel worse and worse the more I would play the game over the years. Not because I did not have the skill required (on the contrary, I was in the upper ranks) but because 90% of the time some extremely angry, misogynist, pubescent male teenagers (or even young men) would bully me because of my gender, especially when I would ignore questions like "Are you a grill?", "How old are you?", "Do you have a boyfriend?", or would respond along the lines of "This is not a dating platform, so let's focus on the match, guys." There would be verbal abuse as well as abusing the in-game mechanics to get me killed etc. It got to a point where I would get extreme depression because of this, and as much as I love the game per se, I quit it. I just couldn't take it anymore.

    The probably worst part about it was that most of my male CS:GO gaming buddies wouldn't get how hurt I felt in a situation like that, that I was taking it personal (how can you not take something like that personal?). Their advice would be to just "ignore them" (or mute them on voice chat), but, as mentioned before, ignoring them would lead to in-game abuse instead, trolling me for the whole 35-90 minutes of the match, or deliberately throwing the match. My gaming buddies just didn't get how it would affect me mentally.

    Looking back over the past 13 years or so, there have been many times in which I've come across people asking "If you're male in real life, why do you play female characters in games?". A long time ago, my answer was "because if I'm going to look at the back of my character all day, I prefer to look at the female form." While this may be perceived as a form of misogyny, and perhaps at the time there was something there, over the years I can confidently say that because I experienced something similar to what you went through (definitely not as intense and only within the realm of the virtual worlds/games), I think I was at one point changed, and became driven to continue using female characters not because of any questionable objectification or desire, but because it forced me to remain sensitive to how women are often treated in games.
    I sometimes feel like I've heard it all, especially having been involved with virtual worlds like Second Life. From guys spending weeks trying to woo me (thinking I was a woman) into doing the pixel-boom-boom with them, to guys who walk right up and say "Hi, want to..." (not even going to use the filter word).
    I am not a huge fan of some things the womens rights movement today is doing, but I know very very well exactly why the movement is so strong. There needs to be a balance struck, and I am confident it eventually will, but wow.. men brought this on themselves. If a woman has that sort of experience commonly in games, etc., it is a given that some of them are going to get depressed and get into a dark space. A lot won't admit it, but it is not something that only one gender is susceptible to either. You put enough men through the same sort of situation of being treated in a degrading manner, and a portion of them are going to get hurt by it. It's a human thing.

    So far, I have only had positive experiences in GW2 90+ % of the time, but I do recognize an increase in what I nowadays call the "CS:GO mentality" in GW2. I hope it never gets that bad, though. And I agree with you, @Neural.1824, that empathy and social behavior have suffered severely in the online world during the past decade. I appreciate you reminding people of that kind of stuff. :)

    My experience in game in GW2 has been absolutely stellar in this regard. I've seen "toxic masculinity" in map chats, etc., but in my personal interactions with individuals that don't know I'm not female in RL, I have not dealt with any of the poor behavior I've come across in other places. In fact, the majority of the issues I have run into has been more from people who do not like the fact that people can choose the opposite of their RL gender for a character here.

    Soul-binding needs to be allowed to die gracefully. It has expired. It is long past it's time to become a footnote in the history of gaming.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭

    So, not gonna lie, I will agree that with the usual competitive hype (either through PvP, WvW, PvE and yes, even RP) that MMOs present does not help ANYONE with any previous mental health issues.

    Take for example with me. PvP. As much as people in PvP joke or tease or belittle each other, it is scary how much they want to 'win'. A competitive spirit is /fine/, there is nothing /wrong/ with that, but being face with people that are at the top that belittle the average man, along with the fact PvP has a VERY large learning curve, I felt that sense of inadequency. Two, going on three years I've been trying my very hardest as a PvPer. Very hard. I rejoice when I win and I get so furious when I lost because there are factors that contributed to the loss that is out of my hands. Balance, egos, whatever. I, myself, have been improving slowly but surely but the reward of 'improving (aka moving up tiers) by myself did not improve.

    Sadly, it had gotten to a point I was on the verge of tears because no matter what I did I could never seem to make it up to play on my own. Every build. Every class. Hours and hours. I felt like garbage. It's not because of have a kitten life. I have a husband, get out of the house a decent amount, take care of two kitties, read, and just enjoy myself. It's just the fact the idea of 'winning' has always been important to me. Seeing progress after a certain amount of time, (A year or a couple), I would expect to be at this high tier. But I'm not. I improve with friends. I improve by queuing with other people. I feel in control and feel like I can limit the numbers.

    Point is, sometimes, it is the fact people saying that 'losing' is nothing but bad things and winning is everything can create a toxic mindset. I've only have minor depression and had a long history of panic attacks, but mostly out of overwhelming stress in real life for the same reason. The concept of succeeding and winning can really take a toll on someone. And I see my issues as minor. I can only imagine how people with SERIOUS mental issues feel.

    So yeah, even if people seem tough or a jokester, always check up on them. Competitive even if it is in actuality or just simply a concept, can take its toll on anyone at anyone point in time. Everyone has different tolerance levels and the ones that have low tolerance should be looked out for.

  • Bast Bow.2958Bast Bow.2958 Member ✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    I feel somewhat uncomfortable because of your post OP. This feels very, very private. Maybe I need to apoligize because I feel uncomfortable, not sure.

    I agree more love, more kindness in my words, is always good.

    As other said as well, if a game brings you so low you’re thinking about stepping out of life, you really need to take a break. Not only from the game, but from the computer and being inside, probably.
    You should also seek professional help if you feel this bad. It’s good to open up about this, but I wonder if a public game forum is the right place.

    I wish you all the best.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Mouelp, I understand what are mental issues burnout etc... but I don't see how a game can give you that, especially gw2. They are no win or lose, you are just knocked down by foes sometimes.

    I would simply say, play a game when you want to play it, do the things you like doing: don't force yourself! I took my time crafting the Predator, some days I was exploring, not farming.

    I'm very pessimist in general, and even if I have a kitten real life, I don't want to kill myself. Even in gw2, it's a GAME, anything could happens, I still distinguish life/game.
    I died for sure more than 200 times with my toon since the launch, welp that's nothing, let's continue. Legendaries are quite a challenge and should be crafted one by one. A goal, but not obscessing you everyday. Will arrive when it arrives.

    The day I become more dependant and worrying about pixels I will stop playing.
    Game is for fun and happiness, just let sadness where it should stay, in real world. Evade, enjoy your journey!

    But gonna concede, PvE is better than WvW or PvP concerning the aspect
    "evade, no worries..", I do like WvW a little, not abusing it, and avoiding PvP at all costs.
    (Hate toxicity and when everyone are just insulting each others, not a pleasure, already experienced that in other pvp games like league of legend)

    +++In creative mood. New Engie Elite spec' DONE, Housing DONE, New asuran expansion DONE, Designing a new lounge "current", New GameMode DONE

  • Neural.1824Neural.1824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:
    So yeah, even if people seem tough or a jokester, always check up on them. Competitive even if it is in actuality or just simply a concept, can take its toll on anyone at anyone point in time. Everyone has different tolerance levels and the ones that have low tolerance should be looked out for.

    This touches lightly on something for me in regards to World vs. World.
    When playing multiple game modes, a person is going to interact with people they may not see in other game modes. I know that the commanders I've followed in WvW in the past are not people I will see in Tangled Depths or farming logs at Paga's in Malchor's Leap. The majority utilize different game modes, but I think most also have a favorite that they spend a larger portion of their time in. As a result, for me at least, I don't develop the social bonds that I do within a guild. When you join a guild, you're with those people via chat whenever you are logged in. They might be at Jormag, and you might be waiting for your Vale Guardian team to fill up, and everyone can still be chattering away in guild chat. Guilds have the guild missions they can run together. They have the guild hall, and so on. In the long run, for people like me, these are the people you can lean on when you are having a heck of a time getting that achievement, or need to do a group event, etc. Yes, there is LFG, and so on, but guilds are a core of friends and people you can rely on (in most cases).
    Because of this aspect of the game, this is why I have been so heavily in support of the Alliances ideas that Arenanet has put forth in regards to WvW. Megaserver changed a lot with guilds in this game. I know people from all different tiers and servers. At group events, or missions, etc., there is next to no expectation of success. If we wipe, there is a group-like attitude that keeps the mood light, and fosters a mentality of humor and a tenacity to try again. For a lot of people, myself included, running solo, or even "alone in a crowd" with a zerg, is a very different experience. It's hard to nail down exactly, but when you're getting steamrolled by the other zerg, it's just not as painful when all your closest friends die with you.

    Soul-binding needs to be allowed to die gracefully. It has expired. It is long past it's time to become a footnote in the history of gaming.

  • OutOfOrder.3719OutOfOrder.3719 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    I hope the new mount will require WvW gold rank of 1400 or greater to be eligible to buy the War Mount.

    And cost at least 10,000 WvW shards to buy. That way everyone can become an Obsessive Compulsive Gamer and experience what it really means to have OCD.

    In all seriousness, depression is real and can really hurt . Please don't be ashamed to receive professional help and talk to friends and family members about how you feel.

    Life is short and every day is worth making the journey.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The world has become a pretty dark place, some societies are riddled with stress (some more than others), and in a perhaps tragic twist, people are increasingly looking towards entertainment as a way to escape from it.

    I'm sorry, but I just can't agree to this if you are living in a first world country. People are looking towards entertainment because THEY CAN.

    Do you really want to go down the rabbit hole and compare our times now with ANY period of time before in human history? What is the time frame? How many years have to be "better" in succession? 10 years? 20 years?

    As this century nears it's first quarter, we have seen the longest period of wealth and peace in the developed countries ever. We are actually facing problems of wealth accumulation never present in the past. There was no period in time where this tranquility was not interrupted by war, disease or strive or something else. People can look towards entertainment because their life standards have developed past hunger, exploitation, war and conflict. To assume anything else is to be absolutely uninformed about history.

    Yes, there are new issues arising which need conquering. Some stem from over crowding and population centers (again only possible due to the vast over supply of food and resources.). Others from literally our technology overtaking our human ability to adapt. I would not trade any of our current problems with those of any time in the past. If escape from reality is the biggest problem one has, I dare that person go visit a country where actual starvation is taking place. It really puts things in perspective.

    @TC
    I am happy you overcame your demons. I do think you are throwing a very wide net. Instead of assuming why you reached your low point, you should seek professional help. There is no shame in going to a psychiatrist even for consultation. I'm saying this because some of the things you describe and the fact that you were/are affected by a video game this deeply can very well be rooted in way more complex issues.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The world has become a pretty dark place, some societies are riddled with stress (some more than others), and in a perhaps tragic twist, people are increasingly looking towards entertainment as a way to escape from it.

    I'm sorry, but I just can't agree to this if you are living in a first world country. People are looking towards entertainment because THEY CAN.

    Do you really want to go down the rabbit hole and compare our times now with ANY period of time before in human history? What is the time frame? How many years have to be "better" in succession? 10 years? 20 years?

    Honest question: how interested are you in human psychology? In a previous comment I explained that mental health does not correlates as much with standards of living as it does with having a sense of purpose in life.

    If you have an issue with the content of the first comment, then at least consider the follow up before objecting.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The world has become a pretty dark place, some societies are riddled with stress (some more than others), and in a perhaps tragic twist, people are increasingly looking towards entertainment as a way to escape from it.

    I'm sorry, but I just can't agree to this if you are living in a first world country. People are looking towards entertainment because THEY CAN.

    Do you really want to go down the rabbit hole and compare our times now with ANY period of time before in human history? What is the time frame? How many years have to be "better" in succession? 10 years? 20 years?

    Honest question: how interested are you in human psychology? In a previous comment I explained that mental health does not correlates as much with standards of living as it does with having a sense of purpose in life.

    If you have an issue with the content of the first comment, then at least consider the follow up before objecting.

    I would put the stress of starvation, loss, hunger, poverty, disease, subjugation to a lord, etc. over any type of stress caused through increase of living standards.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The world has become a pretty dark place, some societies are riddled with stress (some more than others), and in a perhaps tragic twist, people are increasingly looking towards entertainment as a way to escape from it.

    I'm sorry, but I just can't agree to this if you are living in a first world country. People are looking towards entertainment because THEY CAN.

    Do you really want to go down the rabbit hole and compare our times now with ANY period of time before in human history? What is the time frame? How many years have to be "better" in succession? 10 years? 20 years?

    Honest question: how interested are you in human psychology? In a previous comment I explained that mental health does not correlates as much with standards of living as it does with having a sense of purpose in life.

    If you have an issue with the content of the first comment, then at least consider the follow up before objecting.

    I would put the stress of starvation, loss, hunger, poverty, disease, subjugation to a lord, etc. over any type of stress caused through increase of living standards.

    maybe you would. What of kids from rich families who have it all, yet are still depressed as heck, often turning to drugs?

    Mental health doesn't quite work that way. Because YOU have a healthier mind you can make such observations and statements. Those who don't, see in reality a much bleaker existence.

    Whether the world is better, or worse, or whatever, really depends on the measuring data to be used. As such, it's just a subjective call in the end.

    Edit: and thus I decided to edit the original comment to clarify a bit better this and avoid unnecessary discussion.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The world has become a pretty dark place, some societies are riddled with stress (some more than others), and in a perhaps tragic twist, people are increasingly looking towards entertainment as a way to escape from it.

    I'm sorry, but I just can't agree to this if you are living in a first world country. People are looking towards entertainment because THEY CAN.

    Do you really want to go down the rabbit hole and compare our times now with ANY period of time before in human history? What is the time frame? How many years have to be "better" in succession? 10 years? 20 years?

    Honest question: how interested are you in human psychology? In a previous comment I explained that mental health does not correlates as much with standards of living as it does with having a sense of purpose in life.

    If you have an issue with the content of the first comment, then at least consider the follow up before objecting.

    I would put the stress of starvation, loss, hunger, poverty, disease, subjugation to a lord, etc. over any type of stress caused through increase of living standards.

    maybe you would. What of kids from rich families who have it all, yet are still depressed as heck, often turning to drugs?

    Mental health doesn't quite work that way. Because YOU have a healthier mind you can make such observations and statements. Those who don't see in reality a much bleaker existence.

    Whether the world is better, or worse, or whatever, really depends on the measuring data to be used. As such, it's just a subjective call in the end.

    Do what I recommended: visit a country of extreme poverty. I guarantee you, most of your issues will resolve themselves.

    I am not debunking or disagreeing with the fact that there is new disorders, new challenges or problems we face (I did mention that). I just disagree that we are facing dark times compared to any period of history so far. We are facing new challenges which come as negative perks of extreme wealth (in all areas).

    There is a very nice analogy to obesity here by the way:
    Obesity is a growing problem in first world countries as a direct result of our life styles and over abundance of food. Now who is worse off? A person in a first world country having to tackle his obesity? Or someone starving in a third world country? One of both can tackle his problem, the other is often subject to other circumstances outside of his control.

  • Neural.1824Neural.1824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Do what I recommended: visit a country of extreme poverty. I guarantee you, most of your issues will resolve themselves.

    I would advise further educating yourself on human psychology. Having dealt with such conditions for the 48 years of my life, my self defense early in high school was to start studying disorders. It is a fallacy that "seeing how good you really have it" is a magical cure all for depression or other ailments.

    I am not debunking or disagreeing with the fact that there is new disorders, new challenges or problems we face (I did mention that). I just disagree that we are facing dark times compared to any period of history so far. We are facing new challenges which come as negative perks of extreme wealth (in all areas).

    You did not address his statement regarding the documented circumstances in which people who enough money and time to purchase everything they could possibly want, are just as prone to suicide and depression as others.

    There is a very nice analogy to obesity here by the way:

    Obesity is most certainly not because of an abundance of food. Differences in lifestyle? Absolutely. Sitting at a computer all day crunching numbers is not going to burn as many calories as playing a professional or semi-professional sport. Additionally, many people ignore the direct connection between emotional stress and eating.

    For the record, and directed at the thread participants:
    The information regarding how I got into my situation is the lead in to the actual message here. This is not about "woe is me", it's about how I, as one person among 7.5billion people wound up at the bottom of a pit, pulled myself out of that pit by seeking help (people seem to gloss right over my statement about this part), and over the time I spent away from the game chose to analyze how and why I got to where I was, and then looked for a viable solution that does not take special training, does not take much effort, and is easy enough for everyone to understand.

    Yes, people in those situations need help, that is a given, but if we are to maintain some shred of decency as a society, people need to step up. The primary point of the post was that other than sending a tip to a commander, it costs nothing to be kind.

    Saying "hey bro, that champ is a beast to solo, do you want some help with it?" has a 100% higher chance of leading to the other person admitting they are in danger and need help for real, than just running by and assuming that when their character corpse disappears that they just ported.

    That said, the original message is quite clearly not getting through to very many people.

    Soul-binding needs to be allowed to die gracefully. It has expired. It is long past it's time to become a footnote in the history of gaming.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I am not debunking or disagreeing with the fact that there is new disorders, new challenges or problems we face (I did mention that). I just disagree that we are facing dark times compared to any period of history so far. We are facing new challenges which come as negative perks of extreme wealth (in all areas).

    actually, all I had in mind when writing that piece of my comment was mental health. We have had crazy all throughout human history, but we've had quite a lot of new conditions and just... plain crazy that we didn't historically had. Perhaps its an issue of not having better interest in recording it as such (mental health wasn't an area of study until a century or two ago), but the information we have today doesn't show that humanity's mental health has actually improved all that much.

    There is a very nice analogy to obesity here by the way:
    Obesity is a growing problem in first world countries as a direct result of our life styles and over abundance of food. Now who is worse off? A person in a first world country having to tackle his obesity? Or someone starving in a third world country? One of both can tackle his problem, the other is often subject to other circumstances outside of his control.

    I am not sure we can really compare the subjective suffering of each person and state who has it better. Little good it does to tell the teenager thinking of suicide that had he been born in ancient Greek he'd be kitten by his mentors.

    People who have mental issues are generally suffering a large deal, and trying to minimize the impact of their suffering (by discussing how the world ain't that bad) doesn't address their needs.

    Do what I recommended: visit a country of extreme poverty. I guarantee you, most of your issues will resolve themselves.

    Disclaimer: I live in a third world country and we do have starving people out in the streets here, lots of refugees from Venezuela as of late. Not sure I understand your point?

  • the only way to achieve happiness is buying Black Lion keys

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I am not debunking or disagreeing with the fact that there is new disorders, new challenges or problems we face (I did mention that). I just disagree that we are facing dark times compared to any period of history so far. We are facing new challenges which come as negative perks of extreme wealth (in all areas).

    actually, all I had in mind when writing that piece of my comment was mental health. We have had crazy all throughout human history, but we've had quite a lot of new conditions and just... plain crazy that we didn't historically had. Perhaps its an issue of not having better interest in recording it as such (mental health wasn't an area of study until a century or two ago), but the information we have today doesn't show that humanity's mental health has actually improved all that much.

    No. What you've had is a lot of more media coverage of certain conditions. Unless you assume that the human psyche changed drastically within the last few years (it did not), the only reasonable explanation is that you are better informed today on negative situations.

    The other is that we are a lot better at identifying conditions and diseases and mental disabilities today. That does not make them non existent in the past though, simply not diagnosed.

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    There is a very nice analogy to obesity here by the way:
    Obesity is a growing problem in first world countries as a direct result of our life styles and over abundance of food. Now who is worse off? A person in a first world country having to tackle his obesity? Or someone starving in a third world country? One of both can tackle his problem, the other is often subject to other circumstances outside of his control.

    I am not sure we can really compare the subjective suffering of each person and state who has it better. Little good it does to tell the teenager thinking of suicide that had he been born in ancient Greek he'd be kitten by his mentors.

    People who have mental issues are generally suffering a large deal, and trying to minimize the impact of their suffering (by discussing how the world ain't that bad) doesn't address their needs.

    So you are essentially disagreeing with TC that some good words and fluffy feel goods in a video game are of much use but instead professional help is most advised. I agree.

    As to obesity, one of both individuals has a choice and can out of their own action (which especially with depression or other similar mental state altering diseases can also prove impossible) to seek help or fix their situation. The others are at the mercy of their surrounding society and economic situation. Being able to affect your own fate is always better than being at the mercy of others.

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Do what I recommended: visit a country of extreme poverty. I guarantee you, most of your issues will resolve themselves.

    Disclaimer: I live in a third world country and we do have starving people out in the streets here, lots of refugees from Venezuela as of late. Not sure I understand your point?

    I was referring to the "rich people without goals" you were talking about making an incorrect assumption (on my part) that you were talking about first world country privileged rich. As far as people who are to wealthy in developing countries, yeah sorry but if you can't find purpose with those harsh conditions surrounding you then you definitely need to seek help. There is nothing preventing anyone from finding employment or work no matter how wealthy.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    I am in agreement with most of the comment, so I'll just reply to this bit:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Do what I recommended: visit a country of extreme poverty. I guarantee you, most of your issues will resolve themselves.

    Disclaimer: I live in a third world country and we do have starving people out in the streets here, lots of refugees from Venezuela as of late. Not sure I understand your point?

    I was referring to the "rich people without goals" you were talking about making an incorrect assumption (on my part) that you were talking about first world country privileged rich. As far as people who are to wealthy in developing countries, yeah sorry but if you can't find purpose with those harsh conditions surrounding you then you definitely need to seek help. There is nothing preventing anyone from finding employment or work no matter how wealthy.

    employment is not necessarily what provides purpose in life. In fact, sometimes you get the opposite effect: people depressed because they have no reason to exist beyond being another gear in society's machinery.

    wealthy kids usually suffer depression due to a sense of abandonment, they often lacked more emotional bonding with their parents (love): they had all resources they wanted, but no sense of self worth.

    Finding purpose in life may seem easy when you are struggling to survive (that's a reason to exist, though far from an ideal situation), and that might even be a factor to the lack of known mental illnesses in the past. Nowadays that many more people have their basic needs fulfilled, they can afford to face the bigger questions of life, and that may be where much of the issues today stem from.

    Anyway, perhaps it's better to just mention that there's much to be desired from the way society currently works regarding the mental health of its members, and that we can do better, without having to compare to the past.

  • Neural.1824Neural.1824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    You are on a video game message board. If you want decency in society, there is a ton of places you can start on first. People can tip or not tip. That is up to them, but please don't take a serious issue like mental health and presume that some feel good vibes will clear everything up.

    This says everything that someone might want to know about you. Your intent is not to help, but to hinder. Every single comment you have made has been a direct challenge to the validity of the original message, or an attempt to convince others that they shouldn't care or look to be part of the solution.

    Internet game forum indeed.

    Soul-binding needs to be allowed to die gracefully. It has expired. It is long past it's time to become a footnote in the history of gaming.

  • The only thing that makes me happy is opening Black Lion Chests.

    If you are feeling lonely, nothing makes me feel more successful than hitting the Rare category. Jackpot!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Neural.1824 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    You are on a video game message board. If you want decency in society, there is a ton of places you can start on first. People can tip or not tip. That is up to them, but please don't take a serious issue like mental health and presume that some feel good vibes will clear everything up.

    This says everything that someone might want to know about you. Your intent is not to help, but to hinder. Every single comment you have made has been a direct challenge to the validity of the original message, or an attempt to convince others that they shouldn't care or look to be part of the solution.

    Internet game forum indeed.

    No, that is what you took from my message, which by the way was originally only directed at you with the recommendation of seeking professional help. The remainder was aimed at a comment which I disagreed with not by you.

    Everything beyond that is you either reading something into what I wrote, and/or being annoyed that someone voiced their opinion and/or disagrees with you. I can't change how you deal with differing opinions, but I certainly will not sugar coat mine or change it only to accommodate you.

    Again, I don't take mental health issues lightly and having wise suggestions of fluffy cushions and feel goods on a video game message board is no replacement for professional help that people might require. As such I will call this out because it is a very serious issue. Everything else is either bad advice, or people talking about way different or way less severe mental conditions than being refereed to here.

  • Aediph.2873Aediph.2873 Member ✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    This is one of the reasons I haven't completed a single Legendary weapon despite having played off and on since Guild Wars 2 first came out, I'm extremely casual. I like to just run around and do open-world events or fight monsters wherever. Going through the process of making a legendary is more stress than I want to put on my life. I give respect to the folks that can make Legendaries, because I would probably go nuts trying to make just one.

    I'm bullied a lot in real life, I can relate to being in a dark place. I'm glad you got help man. I wish you and your wife the best!
    The casual PvE in this game for me is a light in the darkness.
    We all need at least a little light in our lives.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Again, I don't take mental health issues lightly and having wise suggestions of fluffy cushions and feel goods on a video game message board is no replacement for professional help that people might require. As such I will call this out because it is a very serious issue. Everything else is either bad advice, or people talking about way different or way less severe mental conditions than being refereed to here.

    my take away on this topic is: being kind to each other can help many people feel better about life and give them a bit more of a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel, but that kind of support does not replace what professional help can do for these issues, but that doesn't invalidates the former either.

    Really, they aren't incompatible recommendations.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Again, I don't take mental health issues lightly and having wise suggestions of fluffy cushions and feel goods on a video game message board is no replacement for professional help that people might require. As such I will call this out because it is a very serious issue. Everything else is either bad advice, or people talking about way different or way less severe mental conditions than being refereed to here.

    my take away on this topic is: being kind to each other can help many people feel better about life and give them a bit more of a glimpse of light at the end of the tunnel, but that kind of support does not replace what professional help can do for these issues, but that doesn't invalidates the former either.

    Really, they aren't incompatible recommendations.

    Oh absolutely. If possible one should always strive to be kind to his fellow man/women (even if out of selfish reasons for some people, since cooperation and kindness will most often be to ones own benefit). Maybe even more in a highly connected world where negative news and sensationalism dominate the headlines.

    At some point though, especially with disorders which affect one's perception, other help is required.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    @Neural.1824 said:
    [...] I think I was at one point changed, and became driven to continue using female characters not because of any questionable objectification or desire, but because it forced me to remain sensitive to how women are often treated in games.

    Not all men are like the way I described, of course. Most of my real-life friends throughout my life have been male, and none of them is a misogynist. Thank you for sharing your experience and for taking a look at the matter from a different angle. :)

    I am not a huge fan of some things the womens rights movement today is doing, but I know very very well exactly why the movement is so strong. There needs to be a balance struck, and I am confident it eventually will, but wow.. men brought this on themselves.

    No truer words have been spoken. I grew up in a household where gender did not matter in terms of what your role and place was in life. That's probably why it still shocks me even twice as hard when I come across misogynist behavior. I just don't understand it. I have gone through life judging a person by their character; I couldn't care less about their gender identity or color of skin etc.

    If a woman has that sort of experience commonly in games, etc., it is a given that some of them are going to get depressed and get into a dark space.

    What I described earlier was just the prelude into the verbal and in-game abuse (I am not going to quote any of what was said later on in such situations, but you can imagine, especially from your own experience).

    It makes me mad beyond words when even the players who wouldn't go that far as to rudely attack me would give me lines like, "No offense, but a woman can never play as good as a guy." Really? Why not? This isn't a weightlifting contest, it's something that requires brains, reflexes and aim. And that does not depend on gender. The pro scene in CS:GO, at least the one recognized by the public, is all male. The women's league does not get as good a professional training as the men, nor do they get pampered by living in villas with all the comfort they need to practice. They will never get as good as the men as long as there is a divide of genders (I would love to live and see the day when mixed teams have become the norm). Yet the status quo plays into the hands of those bullying women in the game. They don't see the connection between how women are being treated and their performance issues (I would always immediately play worse when being bullied, because it would affect me strongly on a mental and emotional level).

    I'd like to point out that there is also a lot of other discrimination going on in that community: homophobia (I am certain there are gay pros as well, but no one would dare to officially admit that), bashing of young players (no wonder they grow up to behave like their "role models"), racism and what not. I am super glad you rarely come across such mindsets in GW2. Still, even elitism displayed by some GW2 players can be described as discriminatory; instead of offering "noobs" help to become better, they are being excluded or even verbally attacked (again, the latter is an extremely rare thing in GW2 as the community is pretty awesome).

    Anyway, I am glad the OP brought this up. It is important to re-learn the fact, that - even when it is online - it is still a human being you are dealing with.

    A lot won't admit it, but it is not something that only one gender is susceptible to either.

    Exactly.

    My experience in game in GW2 has been absolutely stellar in this regard. I've seen "toxic masculinity" in map chats, etc., but in my personal interactions with individuals that don't know I'm not female in RL, I have not dealt with any of the poor behavior I've come across in other places. In fact, the majority of the issues I have run into has been more from people who do not like the fact that people can choose the opposite of their RL gender for a character here.

    I have never been attacked for playing mostly male characters either, heh. On the contrary, most react nicely (or don't react at all, because they don't care, which is how it should be) when they find out I am female. I recall only one incident where someone would ask me in chat how I could be female when my character is clearly male, to which they received an immediate response by a dozen people laughing and saying that that's why games like these are called role-playing games. It was rather sweet.

    So... let me finish this lengthy post by saying that I am very happy that this is a good and safe community to be in. And though some might complain about "censorship" on here or in-game (through reports), it is important to understand why it exists. Just like you said about the feminist movement: out of the sheer necessity (due to how desensitized many have become in dealing with others online).

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Do what I recommended: visit a country of extreme poverty. I guarantee you, most of your issues will resolve themselves.

    This comment alone clearly demonstrates that you are clueless about mental illness

    Obesity is a growing problem in first world countries as a direct result of our life styles and over abundance of food. Now who is worse off? A person in a first world country having to tackle his obesity? Or someone starving in a third world country? One of both can tackle his problem, the other is often subject to other circumstances outside of his control.

    And this is another part where you show a gross lack of understanding of the subject matter.

    You really need to stop talking about this sort of topic because it's actually dangerous what you're doing here.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • Recently I have gone through heavy three day WvW grind for some skins (I hate PvP in this game), so I feel your pain, even though I didn't react so strongly as you. I did however almost quit the game. These 3 days made me hate the game so much, it's hard to describe. Between balancing issues, toxic people, insults, getting killed, getting downed in less than a second, before even realizing you are in combat, respawning and running all the way back again and again and doing nothing but capturing points and killing npc guards to keep participation up... It's simply not healthy. And now they announced this WvW exclusive mount. I'm not getting back there, simple as that. But it makes me very disappointed and if they keep adding exclusive stuff that they know PvE people will want to get, I'll just quit the game. There is no point if putting yourself through such pain for any game.

  • Gehenna.3625Gehenna.3625 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @serialkicker.5274 said:
    Recently I have gone through heavy three day WvW grind for some skins (I hate PvP in this game), so I feel your pain, even though I didn't react so strongly as you. I did however almost quit the game. These 3 days made me hate the game so much, it's hard to describe. Between balancing issues, toxic people, insults, getting killed, getting downed in less than a second, before even realizing you are in combat, respawning and running all the way back again and again and doing nothing but capturing points and killing npc guards to keep participation up... It's simply not healthy. And now they announced this WvW exclusive mount. I'm not getting back there, simple as that. But it makes me very disappointed and if they keep adding exclusive stuff that they know PvE people will want to get, I'll just quit the game. There is no point if putting yourself through such pain for any game.

    I do feel it's also about setting realistic goals like the Gift of Battle or whichever track. When you do the dailies you get boosts that raise your total. All you need to do is get your participation to rank 6 which means tagging along for a little while with some group. Then just complete 2-3 WvW dailies every day. Killing the veteran monster, the big spender one, capping two camps, gaining land, disrupting dolyak supplies...those are the staple ones that are easy. Because of the potions that boost your track you can easily gain enough for 2-3 levels in the track. There are 40 levels in a track. So give it a couple of weeks of just doing some of these dailies and you're done. Also by leaving WvW instantly after, your participation level stays. So really you only have to spend 30 minutes a day give or take to complete those dailies. I think doing that for 2-3 weeks is relatively painless.

    Part of the problem with things like this is unrealistic expectations. Who cares if other people can get the GoB in one or two days? You need to do it the way it works for you. And if you really don't like WvW my explanation here is how to best deal with that. It's important to understand your limitations, accept them and then see how you can manage your goals with those limitations. Comparing yourself to other people really doesn't help much in that. Now that can be hard to do because we do have a tendency to compare ourselves to others and you can really feel that push to keep going, but that's the real battle.

    If it's too much for you to do WvW at all, then you're right, you shouldn't go there. And I will say this. I've been doing WvW for a couple of months now. I do it solo (they don't want my guardian in their groups anyway) and I really haven't gotten any insults thrown at me. If I had really hated it then I would've stopped also. So far though, I'm just starting to get bored because it's a lot the same things. So I play less of it at a time. It'll be nice to have a mount there though cause all that walking is part of why it's so boring.

    "In my experience, if you can't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. The details are everything." ~ Minister Durano

  • @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @serialkicker.5274 said:
    Recently I have gone through heavy three day WvW grind for some skins (I hate PvP in this game), so I feel your pain, even though I didn't react so strongly as you. I did however almost quit the game. These 3 days made me hate the game so much, it's hard to describe. Between balancing issues, toxic people, insults, getting killed, getting downed in less than a second, before even realizing you are in combat, respawning and running all the way back again and again and doing nothing but capturing points and killing npc guards to keep participation up... It's simply not healthy. And now they announced this WvW exclusive mount. I'm not getting back there, simple as that. But it makes me very disappointed and if they keep adding exclusive stuff that they know PvE people will want to get, I'll just quit the game. There is no point if putting yourself through such pain for any game.

    I do feel it's also about setting realistic goals like the Gift of Battle or whichever track. When you do the dailies you get boosts that raise your total. All you need to do is get your participation to rank 6 which means tagging along for a little while with some group. Then just complete 2-3 WvW dailies every day. Killing the veteran monster, the big spender one, capping two camps, gaining land, disrupting dolyak supplies...those are the staple ones that are easy. Because of the potions that boost your track you can easily gain enough for 2-3 levels in the track. There are 40 levels in a track. So give it a couple of weeks of just doing some of these dailies and you're done. Also by leaving WvW instantly after, your participation level stays. So really you only have to spend 30 minutes a day give or take to complete those dailies. I think doing that for 2-3 weeks is relatively painless.

    Part of the problem with things like this is unrealistic expectations. Who cares if other people can get the GoB in one or two days? You need to do it the way it works for you. And if you really don't like WvW my explanation here is how to best deal with that. It's important to understand your limitations, accept them and then see how you can manage your goals with those limitations. Comparing yourself to other people really doesn't help much in that. Now that can be hard to do because we do have a tendency to compare ourselves to others and you can really feel that push to keep going, but that's the real battle.

    If it's too much for you to do WvW at all, then you're right, you shouldn't go there. And I will say this. I've been doing WvW for a couple of months now. I do it solo (they don't want my guardian in their groups anyway) and I really haven't gotten any insults thrown at me. If I had really hated it then I would've stopped also. So far though, I'm just starting to get bored because it's a lot the same things. So I play less of it at a time. It'll be nice to have a mount there though cause all that walking is part of why it's so boring.

    Thanks for the tips, but I don't think you quite understand how that feels unless you experience this yourself, which I guess you never will, since you don't hate pvp as much as I do. Just those 30 minutes it's like 2 hours for me. Two hours of something I really, really don't enjoy. Locking GoB behing WvW is truly pathetic attempt to bring more players to WvW, just like this new mount is (in case that mount is the major surprise thing they had to announce about WvW and they don't plan to actually fix the mode, but we'll see soon enough).
    Anyhow, I wasn't actually farming gift of battle, I was farming skirmish tickets. 700 of these bastards. And I concluded that there is no way I could do bit by bit every day for weeks. I knew if I want to do it, it has to be by forcing myself to do it all at once. I was delaying it for two weeks and then one day just went for it and didn't stop until I got what I wanted and promised myself I'm returning there ever again.

    I don't hate pvp for no reason. I have played many pvp games (pure pvp games, not mmorpgs). In that time I realized how pvp can drain your energy and can make you toxic. I was never a guy to insult others in chat for killing me or turning on cheats to have my revenge ans silly stuff like that, but I did get upset at certain situations (p2w, unbalanced matchmaking, lag, poor server performances, griefers, cheaters and so on. If I got mad, I simply let it out by throwing some F bombs out loud in my apartment, rather than insulting others in chat. But you're still in that environment and see how people treat each other. Even here in gw2, where they say we got nice community, I always had to giggle. Sure, they are nice in open world, because game is designed in such way, that we don't have to compete, still kills and loot... But as soon as you step into instanced content or pvp, that's another story. If you give people a reason to be kitten, they will be kitten, simple as that. This game is no exception.

    Anyway, I decided to avoid pvp in games altogether and I'm far from happy what they are doing with this WvW and locking content behind it.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Do what I recommended: visit a country of extreme poverty. I guarantee you, most of your issues will resolve themselves.

    This comment alone clearly demonstrates that you are clueless about mental illness

    Depends on the cause of the mental dis-function doesn't it? For anything with root causes in over indulging in entertainment, mild depression, lack of purpose, etc. a new perspective and readjusting of ones priorities can already help. A lot more than some feel goods in a video game.

    For everything more serious, yes clinical and professional help is required. As I have been saying all the time. My comment was in direct context of this thread.

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Obesity is a growing problem in first world countries as a direct result of our life styles and over abundance of food. Now who is worse off? A person in a first world country having to tackle his obesity? Or someone starving in a third world country? One of both can tackle his problem, the other is often subject to other circumstances outside of his control.

    And this is another part where you show a gross lack of understanding of the subject matter.

    You really need to stop talking about this sort of topic because it's actually dangerous what you're doing here.

    The comparison obviously is related to life style induced psychological problems. Not serious mental illnesses.

    I would argue that telling people that getting treated well in a video game can cure them of their illness is far more dangerous instead of seeking professional help. On the contrary, if there is indeed a serious underlying problem, not seeking help will in all likelihood result in the problem becoming far worse. Then again, who knows, maybe I am wrong.

  • Algreg.3629Algreg.3629 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2019

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    You really need to stop talking about this sort of topic because it's actually dangerous what you're doing here.

    It is not your place to tell anyone anything.

    anyway, OP, you let these things get to you because you are ill, you are not ill because these things get to you. But I suppose you know that already.

    Also, any good therapist will early tell you that the only person you can change is yourself. I personally don`t understand the need of so many people to turn into complete jackasses in a pvp environment (but let's be clear, this is happening everywhere in the game, all games, just stand around in LA for 5 minutes and watch chat or partake in any meta event), but that is just the way people are. They will very probably stay like that. You either have to develop a healthy personality (yes, I know, that is very easily said) or disengage completely from an environment that is to your detriment. Cursing the darkness has absolutely no effect, just as appealing to strangers' code of morality or "humanity" hasn't. Your problem can only be solved within yourself, sucks, I know. From my experience, giving up that somewhat proud grim self-identification as a "social outcast" would be a good start. A part of you is clearly reveling in "being different".

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    The world has become a pretty dark place, some societies are riddled with stress (some more than others), and in a perhaps tragic twist, people are increasingly looking towards entertainment as a way to escape from it.

    That makes me laugh every time I hear it. During the last 100 years world has become so immensely better, that it does look like a pure miracle. A typical average citizen of the developed part of the world has quality of life kings of the past couldn't even imagine, when it comes to the most parts of their everyday life. Never ever they have been living in such secure and comfort environment. If anything really has changed is that people become less and less psychologically stable and resilient, capable of facing reality without breaking into tears - what again is direct consequences of (comparatively) extremely high life standards and super-secure environment.

    Yes, even with all those terror attacks, everyday murders and jet crashes, school shootings etc it can't be compared even remotely to what a regular people would face on everyday basis a few hundreds years ago, or even to what the previous generation, including those who had to fight in the WWII, had to live through.

    If anything really changed lately, it's access to information. World became much better and secure place, but at the same time every internet user now can get access to all its filth and horrors with a few mouse clicks - something that never was possible until last few decades. That contributes greatly to that false feeling the world "is getting worse rapidly". Nah, you just have learned how the world has been for thousands of years (and will stay like this for a while), nothing really changed that much since Roman Empire, only the scale got bigger.

    This is true to a point, and untrue to another point. I don't think people are necessarily weaker now. I think weaker people in the past just had to shut up and take it. To that point, I was born in the 60s and we had it harder then than kids I know do now. I was born in a tough tough neighborhood. Cats with tails were considered tourists. There were gang fights. There was all sorts of violence. Neighborhood kids used to collect and trade my teeth. I didn't dare display weakness because if you displayed weakness you were done for. But that doesn't mean the stuff that happened to me didn't deeply affect me or destroy my quality of life. I just wasn't going to tell anyone about it.

    I don't think I'd be going out on a limb to say that the shut up and don't say anything mentality of decades past doesn't mean that people didn't suffer in silence more, nor does it indicate they were better adjusted. Back then if someone hit a kid or a wife, they shut and took it because there was nowhere a lot of people could turn. But if you don't think the people at the receiving end of those beatings suffered, or had emtional reactions, I'm not sure what to tell you. We used to call them nervous breakdowns, but they were around.

    Today we get to hear more people complaining about the things they suffer because there's both more freedom to express themselves and there's more access to communication as you pointed out. So I don't think that we're necessarily weaker today. We just have more opportunity to express how we feel without knowing we're instantly going to be ridiculed. Frankly I like these days better. Physical life has become better, but people are still abused and still bullied and still suffer. And their suffering isn't any better or worse today than it was 100 years ago...in my opinion of course.

  • Going to go ahead and lock this, as the thread has gone off-topic from its original intent.

This discussion has been closed.
©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.