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If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?


Cerioth.7062

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@Castigator.3470 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:A lot of good points. Read his post, it's worth it.(Gonna shill the Templin Institute here, their video is great)

Before the fall of Lion's arch in 1219 AE, Divinty's Reach was a mere outpost with a tomb north of Shaemoor. Divinity's Reach replaced Lion's Arch as a capital and the Krytan Ministry was founded because the king's centralized seat of power broke down. As a city, Divinity's Reach is younger than the Black Citadel (1112 AE). Old Lion's arch was not quite as strong as modern Divinity's Reach and was conquered by Queen Salma and her band of supporters, the Shining Blade, in 1079 AE.

But that was after 1070 AE, where the humans and charr both were weakened. Remember, the charr took massive losses in Orr
and Ascalon, so when they went for Kryta, their morale and war support was waning as well. The other legions were already growing discontent with Flame's rulership, as each defeat was seen as Flame wasting the other legion's soldiers and resources.
Orr would have fallen to Flame Legion had Khilbron not nuked the Kingdom.As for Kryta, I suspect the population boost from Ascalonian settlers made current Kryta possible. They built many new settlements, growing the Kingdom's economy early on, which likely compounded over the following 253 years. So current Kryta is far more powerful from a magical, cultural, military, economic and diplomatic perspective.

Same with the Iron Legion. They have not been slacking off either, while Iron is not well versed in magic, their military and economy are top tier and their diplomacy, while not human level amazing, is fairly solid. Sadly we don't know all that much about Blood and Ash legion territories.

But most people here assume the charr attack. That's likely because the best chance for a human attack was Caudecus, but the Krytan line has somehow spawned Oswald Thorn, so if another such king were to inherit Kryta, he might attempt to wage war against centaurs (for tradition's sake), Lion's Arch (Kryta's old capital), the charr (He might claim Ascalon) and even the hylek (because their croaking annoys him).

Though the most likely scenario involves a cold war situation, where Kryta implicitly supports all things that annoy the charr, while the legions, Ash in particular, might prop up all threats to Kryta. Lion's Arch would be the centre of all the required money laundering, weapon smuggling and espionage, so it would become immensely wealthy, while Krytan nobles and Charr officers pretend that they have no connection to all these activities while trying to one up each other at every turn. Ebonhawke might even try to play both sides, hoping to gain independence from Kryta, and seeking to gain the best of deals from the Iron Legion.

Edit: The Video is okay. Did the Templin guys ever plan to analyse the Legions and the Asura society?

2 small things.

1) Salma never conquered Lion's Arch. She came to Lion's Arch and the lionguard let her in without bloodshed.

2) The charr attacks on Kryta and Orr took place simultaneously after they wrongly assumed that Ascalon was broken. So their failure to take Kryta had nothing to do with the failure of their invasion of Orr.

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@Narcemus.1348 said:2 small things.

1) Salma never conquered Lion's Arch. She came to Lion's Arch and the lionguard let her in without bloodshed.

2) The charr attacks on Kryta and Orr took place simultaneously after they wrongly assumed that Ascalon was broken. So their failure to take Kryta had nothing to do with the failure of their invasion of Orr.

Ah, thank you.

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Humans are in no position to go to war with anyone, either now or in the future. The strength of the humans hinges on their faith to the Six and since they're no longer around, assuming that they won't ever come back, then humans are powerless and will come to extinction. This is why peace is very important to the Humans. As far as the Charr goes, they only care about Ascalon, only the Flame Legion wants to expand and fortunately they no longer in power. Unless the Humans tries to retake Ascalon, they won't be at war with the Charr.

However, assuming that they threw reasons and their senses out the window and went to war anyway, the Human will lose against the Charr. The Norn will be neutral. The Asura will join the Humans as arms dealer since Charr makes their own techs and the Sylvari will also join the humans due to their spiritual connections through Ventari. Despite having this alliance, Charr live and breath war, while Humans are not well trained, thus Humans will be annihilated if they charge head on in the field of battle. Charr is simply superior in training, strategy, tactics, and weaponry. The Humans would need the blessings from their gods in order to fight a Charr 1-to-1. Without the blessings from the Six, it would take 3 Humans to match a single Charr since Charrs are battle hardened. The only way for the Humans to match the Charr is to have the support of both Sylvari and Asura.

This is of course assuming that the Charr will be alone in this. The Charr might seal a pact with the Centaurs since Humans will be their common enemy. The primitive Centaurs and their wooden Trebuchets are already too much for the Humans, now imagine facing the superior war engines of the Charr. With the Centaurs allied with the Charr, the Human-formed alliance will have no chance of winning without their gods. This is of course limited in the continent of Tyria without including the Humans from Cantha and Elona. Since Elona and Kryta has a historical connection, Elona might help Kryta, but they too are in no position to go to war that's why I doubt that will be able to.

TL;DRNorn - neutral, wants everyone to be friendsAsura - sides with Humans as arms dealerSylvari - sides with Humans due to spiritual connection through Ventari's teachingCentaurs - sides with Charr, Humans as common enemy

No Human gods, Humans loses.

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I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

(Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

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I think at this point a lot of Charr wouldn't approve of a war with humans.. there may even be a faction of Charr siding with the humans in open revolt against their own for starting another war with humanity.

As for the factions I think the Charr may find some allies with the Skritt, Dredge, Grawl and the Centaurs.. but overall they would just use them..I doubt the Norn would get involved as they've absolutely no reason to.. same for the Sylvari who likely would feel it's not their war.That said if the Charr or Humans attempted to wage war through the shiverpeaks the Norn may end up fighting either or both sides to protect their own lands.The Asura could be swayed to the Humans side if they believed the Charr had returned to their old invade and conquer ways and feel that one day the Charr would invade their territory as well.

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@ThatOddOne.4387 said:How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

Humans was on a losing streak and Divinity's Reach is the last bastion for humanity. Humans do not train for war like the Charrs. From a small cub, Charr already know danger and trained to be in a warband. Humans in Kryta don't have the same culture. Elona is close to war-ready than Kryta but Joko have persecuted the Sunspears for years. All they have left are a small band of resistance than can actually fight.

In addition, Kryta has ballista made of wood. How is that going to work against the Charr tanks? Asura golems is the only thing that can match the Charr tanks. However, just like the Humans, Asura has a scholar culture, not a war culture. Same goes with the Sylvari, they are explorers, not warriors.

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:(Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

I disagree.

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There will be no such thing like war between races/species. It's not charr-human conflict, it can be "High Legion-Krytan conflict", and we have to consider political reasons for other groups to support one side, not racial reasons.In Tyria, species/races are divided beetwen themselfs. Humans are fighting with humans (bandits, white mantle, separatists, evil multi-racial organisations), charrs with charrs (renegades, flame legion etc.). So, there will be no racial support for any race, because thing like this (racial support) just can't exist when races are dividedBut the most interetsing thing, in my opinion, is that in current state, there possibly will be humans on charr side and charrs on human side. There will be this whole paranoia about this (like beetwen IRL humans, when soviets have sended at least a lot ppls to gulags for having german-sounding surename), but with political changes, quick information exchange, cooperation in Pact, there will be much more reasons to consider than racial relationship (and there shouldn't be genocide of any race, only occupation, because of "international forces" and ordinary greater knowledge of other races, about the fact that they are not everyone on the same side, etc.). And I'm almost sure if Legions and Kryta wents to war, there will be more than two sides. It might be something like High Legions vs Kryta vs Multiracial coalition builded by representatives of important organization and political sides (political sides like one whole Legion)

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

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@ThatOddOne.4387 said:I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

(Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

The Mongols had the largest contiguous empire in the world, sorry but just no. The Romans also had a pretty huge empire and were pretty warlike. It didn't last in the long run, but no empire or nation even has really lasted in a single state for more than maybe a couple hundred years. The world is constantly changing.

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

(Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

The Mongols had the largest contiguous empire in the world, sorry but just no. The Romans also had a pretty huge empire and were pretty warlike. It didn't last in the long run, but no empire or nation even has really lasted in a single state for more than maybe a couple hundred years. The world is constantly changing.

Traditionally, warfare-based cultures have done exceedingly well in real-world history, falling apart when the leadership grew cocky or weak. Frequently, this came down to logistics.

Logistics don't appear to be a problem for the Charr legions. They do a better job at securing supply lines than they actually do on the field of battle (and they still do pretty well there). At no point through the history of Tyrian warfare do we see the Legions running low on supplies in a battle.

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@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

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@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:I don't know. The humans of Ascalon did pretty fine without any help from the Gods or anyone else. It took the charr resorting to the Searing to bring them to their knees - Nothing to do with this apparently legendary charr prowess in battle.

How would the humans not have similar experience in battle after literal centuries of conflict? How does any race in Tyria not also 'live and breath war'?

(Also, you know, cultures entirely based on warfare have not fared well in real world history)

The Mongols had the largest contiguous empire in the world, sorry but just no. The Romans also had a pretty huge empire and were pretty warlike. It didn't last in the long run, but no empire or nation even has really lasted in a single state for more than maybe a couple hundred years. The world is constantly changing.

Traditionally, warfare-based cultures have done exceedingly well in real-world history, falling apart when the leadership grew cocky or weak. Frequently, this came down to logistics.

Logistics don't appear to be a problem for the Charr legions. They do a better job at securing supply lines than they actually do on the field of battle (and they still do pretty well there). At no point through the history of Tyrian warfare do we see the Legions running low on supplies in a battle.

Yep! Which is why saying "warlike societies don't do well" from a historical standpoint just means they don't know their actual history.

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It seems some of you are confusing militaristic society with successful military history. Just because some state/kingdom/empire achieved XYZ military victory it doesn't mean that its a militaristic society. Quoting examples from historical empires makes little sense since some of those collapsed before they even consolidated their rule over their territory and are thus hardly an example of a "working" system. Others weren't really that militaristic as many people think them to be. Also on a side note, there is something called political science. Within it there is a subdiscipline called "state building". We actually know what kinds of societal/governmental organisations yield what kind of result and what kind of variables are needed to go against the trend. Spoiler alert, militaristic societies are not at the top of the list.

On topic of Charr vs. Human. In some hypothetical conflict between the two its hard to tell. There are way to many variables that we do not know of. Number of population, economic strenght, internal integrity and consolidation. Infrastructure and technology. Usage of magic and magical weaponry. Shadow diplomacy. All of these can severely influence the outcome of war.

Second, there is a question of how and why the war was started. This plays a huge part in how other races position themselves and which side they'll pick. Not to mention that it can also influence internal situation of warring states. This can cause high levels of integration and unity and strong motivation. But if the reason is "wrong" it can result in low support for war effort and in more extreme versions even in internal conflicts. Also, this "how and why" can also determine how other global actors position themselves. This can result in countless actions, for example military help, humanitarian aid, sanctions against the aggressing party or even something more punishing. Every race has interest in maintaining peace and cooperation in central Tyria. Game goes really out of the way to show you how commerce oriented nations in the game are, with Lions Arch being in the center of it. No race has interest in further chaos and instability of war.

There is also a question of Lions Arch, an "immigrant nation" that's melting pot of cultures and races. Considering that LA is geographically at the center of the region and that its strong economic player that is also mostly human dominated it is very likely that LA would join the war the very same day it starts. But on the otherside, since its an "immigrant" nation it is also quite possible that it wouldn't join the war in order to keep internal integrity and stability. So it comes down to who is in power and what are their political priorities. Currently, I would argue that LA would get involved.

Third. We know very little of Charr outside Ascalon. Our knowledge of other legions is shaky at best. And that's a huge unknown. Integrity within each legion, inter-legion integrity and consolidation are extremely important. Not to mention individual capabilities of their executive ranks. Effective supply chain among legions and territorial compact they already have can largely go in their favour. We don't really know how well their infrastructure is connected. On the one side you could get a smooth supply chain of resources, tech and manpower. But on the other side you could get an outdate system that missmatches resources and creates gross delays in allocation.For comparison sake, Kryta has Elona which was recently wrecked by Balthazar and Kralk. Unless Cantha somehow magically pops out,it doesn't bode well for humans in this particular category.

Fourth. In Guild Wars 2 there is an independant military order called the Pact. Even though its quite wrecked since Mordy, its still a respectable force, but more importantly they carry a lot of social and political capital. Unless they split in two, simply having the support of the Pact can help a warring state.Also, the Pact has Order of Whispers within it, and they have shown to have no problem with getting their hands dirty when it comes to politics and kingmaking.

TLDR; There are way to many unknowns, but in my opinion its most likely that the side which starts the war is gonna be on the loosing side. If its the Charr it might last longer because of territorial chession between the Legions. On the other hand, if Charr do start it, many withing Iron Legion might be against it, thus severely hindering integrity of Legions and overall war effort.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

Well then, might as well assume that their hot air balloons and the dome that protected them during the siege of Divinity's reach are charr tech also... I mean humanity has shown no capability to actually produce anything over the last few centuries aside from sustaining a multiple centuries siege while keeping their siege capabilities at the same level as that of their enemy. Obviously they have no skills whatsoever.

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@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Everything even vaguely technological that doesn't have glowing lights on it is charr technology, donchaknow?

To be fair a lot of modern Tyrian industrial equipment is charr made, so anything techy that isn't asuran will indeed be stereotyped as charr made. This should indicate that the Iron Legion really has the edge when it comes to industry, similar to how a PC is associated with the Windows OS, despite there being numerous alternatives, because the former holds around 90% marketshare. If the legions hold a comparable share in the production of industry goods, the stereotype is firmly grounded in reality and non-charr technological products are the exception. Going by Pareto Principle, it's likely that 80% of machine parts are supplied by 20% or Tyrian manufacturers and I would not be surprised if most of those are charr manufacturers.

As for the steam creatures, were they not fallout from a certain Asura's meddling with potential timelines? I recall visiting Scarletts hideout finding crude copies of steam creature, so Scarlett might have just borrowed an existing design. That would at least make much more sense than Scarlett being the inventor of everything. It is even hinted that she studied the steamportals, but not made them. Plus, as a generalist, she'd be much better suited to combining existing technologies than to being a groundbreaking inventor in every field.

As for the question of human and charr going to war: What if human and charr ally and wage war on ogres and centaurs? Both have something to gain here, namely territory and resources, can try improve their doctrines with relatively small risk and since the two theatres would be to the east of the Blazeridge Mountains and to the north of Harathi Hinterland, no one, except centaurs and ogres, would be particularly bothered by such expansion. Additionally, not many third parties would even care.

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@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

Well then, might as well assume that their hot air balloons and the dome that protected them during the siege of Divinity's reach are charr tech also... I mean humanity has shown no capability to actually produce anything over the last few centuries aside from sustaining a multiple centuries siege while keeping their siege capabilities at the same level as that of their enemy. Obviously they have no skills whatsoever.

It's not a matter of whether they have the skills or not, it's a matter of their intent. There is no sign whatsoever that they have any intention to go to war with anyone. Thus, there is no need to build war machines. All the war preparations and equipment were delegated to the Pact. I think the Charr will find DR a threat if the human start amassing military personnel, supplies, and war machines. That is why I doubt that the watchknight is design and built by humans, since the Charr will find that as a threat.

For the last century, the humans could have invented their own war machines, but didn't, even when facing the threat of Zhaitan being able to infiltrate the throne room. This is because they don't want to pose as a threat to the Charr, so they rely more on magic and manpower. Since the Charr didn't reacted negatively when the watchknight was announced, I am incline to believe that it is Charr-approved since they had a hand on designing and building it. It may be the humans who put the pieces together, but humans don't have a forge or furnace to build all the cogs and gears of the watch work. Such furnace can only be found in the Black Citadel. Now, I am also incline to accept if they tossed some rare items into the Mystic Forge and got a watchknight in return.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

It's not a matter of whether they have the skills or not, it's a matter of their intent. There is no sign whatsoever that they have any intention to go to war with anyone. Thus, there is no need to build war machines. All the war preparations and equipment were delegated to the Pact. I think the Charr will find DR a threat if the human start amassing military personnel, supplies, and war machines. That is why I doubt that the watchknight is design and built by humans, since the Charr will find that as a threat.

For the last century, the humans could have invented their own war machines, but didn't, even when facing the threat of Zhaitan being able to infiltrate the throne room. This is because they don't want to pose as a threat to the Charr, so they rely more on magic and manpower. Since the Charr didn't reacted negatively when the watchknight was announced, I am incline to believe that it is Charr-approved since they had a hand on designing and building it. It may be the humans who put the pieces together, but humans don't have a forge or furnace to build all the cogs and gears of the watch work. Such furnace can only be found in the Black Citadel. Now, I am also incline to accept if they tossed some rare items into the Mystic Forge and got a watchknight in return.

There is nothing in the game that would indicate that humans are not developing technology because they don't want charr to see them as a threat. Don't forget that humans are magic oriented race, much more than charr who are more oriented towards technology. Humans have far less need to develop large machinery since they have culturally different approach to magic. People often forget that in fantasy worlds magic has similar usage and role as technology has in real world.

But to be fair, game is really pushing the narrative that every invention in the game is either Asuran or Charr to the point where you ask yourself what was human contribution to airships

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@kasoki.5180 said:

It's not a matter of whether they have the skills or not, it's a matter of their intent. There is no sign whatsoever that they have any intention to go to war with anyone. Thus, there is no need to build war machines. All the war preparations and equipment were delegated to the Pact. I think the Charr will find DR a threat if the human start amassing military personnel, supplies, and war machines. That is why I doubt that the watchknight is design and built by humans, since the Charr will find that as a threat.

For the last century, the humans could have invented their own war machines, but didn't, even when facing the threat of Zhaitan being able to infiltrate the throne room. This is because they don't want to pose as a threat to the Charr, so they rely more on magic and manpower. Since the Charr didn't reacted negatively when the watchknight was announced, I am incline to believe that it is Charr-approved since they had a hand on designing and building it. It may be the humans who put the pieces together, but humans don't have a forge or furnace to build all the cogs and gears of the watch work. Such furnace can only be found in the Black Citadel. Now, I am also incline to accept if they tossed some rare items into the Mystic Forge and got a watchknight in return.

There is nothing in the game that would indicate that humans are not developing technology because they don't want charr to see them as a threat. Don't forget that humans are magic oriented race, much more than charr who are more oriented towards technology. Humans have far less need to develop large machinery since they have culturally different approach to magic. People often forget that in fantasy worlds magic has similar usage and role as technology has in real world.

However, Charr has both magic and techs. That's where the disparity comes in. Since both sides will have access to magic, it is pointless to discuss that topic, thus I focused on military techs, training, and numbers.

But to be fair, game is really pushing the narrative that every invention in the game is either Asuran or Charr to the point where you ask yourself what was human contribution to airships

They fill the tank with gas which makes it float.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

However, Charr has both magic and techs. That's where the disparity comes in. Since both sides will have access to magic, it is pointless to discuss that topic, thus I focused on military techs, training, and numbers.

Charrs have magic the same way humans have technology.

They are not magic oriented culture nor is there any indication that they posses significant magical prowess. Only significant magical feat they ever did was Searing Cauldron and that was gift from the titans.

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