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Raids and discrimination.


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PUG PvE community is very unwelcoming to new/inexperienced players. Its not just raids, its also present in fractals.

Best advice is to start your own LFG or join a LFG that in its description is inviting to new people. No worry, things are way better in Guilds or groups of people that usually play together.

Also, if you are in EU, you might wanna check this outhttps://rti.enjin.com/

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It's Dhuum you guys are talking about, smh. Carrying one noob dps for the kill is one thing. Having an extra noob healer in the group means two different things:

  1. You have to use three healers to compensate for the noob who doesn't know how to do mechanics and thus, lower the dps and hit the enrage timer.

  2. You risk wiping by having the noob healer do the mechanics that has a highest chance to fail the encounter (kite-green)

Dhuum is not the encounter where you can reset once or twice before clearing it easily. If you got it once as a dps because a random group decided to carry you, consider yourself lucky. Your experience speaks zero volume neither about the challenge or give you the authority to dictate how other groups should let noobies leech. It's condescending and ignorant at best.

To all other noobies who said raids are too hard to get in, people don't accept you, etc. I'm skeptical: "Do you really try?". I'm doing random raid trainings across different time zone during the week, here is my experience:

  1. Guildies wants to start raiding, always complaining about the gatekeeping but weeks after weeks never get a raid ready build. They always ask if it would be a kill (to change the lfg to exp and get carried), if they can bring their wvw builds (because it's full ascended), how long it would take (because they want to spend 30 minutes max) or simply don't respond (because they don't want to get "yelled" at).

  2. Now I always have to fill at least half of the squad with pugs. It takes the minimum 20 minutes to fill my training lfg (the requirement being simply proficient in your class and join discord). To those who say lfg is dead, there are in fact some lfg people just conveniently ignore. I had someone come in asking to tank Dhuum with 1005 toughness then disappeared in a middle of the pull (lol). Some wannabe elitist failing every single possible mechanics but asking to kick the noob for failing the dps (sorry, failing mechanics = noobs). Then I get the usual the special snowflake who doesn't know anything, refusing to communicate, stacking toughness to grab aggro, hogging that special healer spot but repeatedly failing at everything and bringing his subgroup down.

Okay, rant over. It's not like my training runs don't generally end in success but it takes a huge amount of nerves to deal with all the BS as a commander. Don't like how that group kicks you out of the squad? GET. A. REALITY. CHECK. AND. A. REAL. MECHANICS. TRAINING.

Be humble. Always be humble in learning. No one owes you their time for your own enjoyment. Also paying forward: help the next noobs ease his way to raids.

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They allowed you to stay till Dhuum which is already more than what most people would have done once they realized you are completely new. Pretty sure people could have complained about a lot of things you did or didn't do on the way there but they were nice. You believe you carried your own weight but that means very little and about as much as us assuming you did not like most newbies.That said, Dhuum is supposed to be the toughest boss there is. Brining along a newbie Healing Scourge is close to low-man'ing the encounter with 9 players. In fact, it is actually harder considering how the mechanics work, how much room there is for you to wipe the group with Bombs, Greens, Links and bad positioning on Dhuum teleports. Telling you this kind of boss isn't for someone like you (yet) is not toxic or mean it is just a fact.There are a lot of ways to get started on raiding and places where you get to practise. Form your own "all-welcoming squad" for Dhuum if you want to see why people tell you it probably won't work out well. There are of course people who are able to kill anything with less than ten players while you are dead on the ground but what reason would they have to bring you along if they are just looking to clear the raid quickly?And any of your private issues are your own. I don't see why anyone should give you special treatment no matter how terrible that sounds.

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I'm not sure if it's all true, and I can probably even understand the first group he was with, but it is crazy still that he mentions he was kicked out of other groups just because he played a Necro! And people that say that this never happens, know they're lying, because it does! In general (raiding scenarios) it pretty much only happens with that profession, as well. And imo that's just wrong, and is also something that won't change in the (pugging) community unless ANet does something about that!

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I'm not sure if it's all true, and I can probably even understand the first group he was with, but it is crazy still that he mentions he was kicked out of other groups just because he played a Necro! And people that say that this never happens, know they're lying, because it does! In general (raiding scenarios) it pretty much only happens with that profession, as well. And imo that's just wrong, and is also something that won't change in the (pugging) community unless ANet does something about that!

You kind of did not read the thread did you?

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I did, but I was exactly wondering the same about you some comments ago:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

Again, I'm not saying that what the OP says is all true, but he literally says (and I quote):

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Ok no biggy I'll find another group, so I joined another one and got kicked within 10 sec just for being a Necro and this happened with 3 other groups as well within 10 min of time.

And a lot of that what you say afterwards, and maybe I'm reading through the lines here, is information that's all fine, and maybe even the main purpose of his post (maybe, I don't know for sure what his real intentions were), but still, and may I add, quite conveniently for you, undersells another real big problem! Imo (and that of other big guilds, etc.) the Necro is in the worst spot right now compared to all other professions when it comes to striving for optimal performance within the PvE endgame. Which strangely enough (not really, cause hey, who doesnt want to be optimal) is what most of the pugging community goes for!So we can address his literal complaint (be it just or not), or sweep it under the rug (which imo you were doing).

My question to you is, how many times have you tried pugging in raids with a Necro (scourge, reaper, core, doesn't matter), and although it's bullshit that there's a 100% pre-kick involved with playing Necro, it is, and I'm sure about that, the number one profession out there that receives the most -just because you choose this profession- kicks! And I don't believe posts/threads like these are going to help the community change in that sense. I believe it came to a point only ANet can.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I did, but I was exactly wondering the same about you some comments ago:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

Again, I'm not saying that what the OP says is all true, but he literally says (and I quote):

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Ok no biggy I'll find another group, so I joined another one and got kicked within 10 sec just for being a Necro and this happened with 3 other groups as well within 10 min of time.

And a lot of that what you say afterwards, and maybe I'm reading through the lines here, is information that's all fine, and maybe even the main purpose of his post (maybe, I don't know for sure what his real intentions were), but still, and may I add, quite conveniently for you, undersells another real big problem! Imo (and that of other big guilds, etc.) the Necro is in the worst spot right now compared to all other professions when it comes to striving for optimal performance within the PvE endgame. Which strangely enough (not really, cause hey, who doesnt want to be optimal) is what most of the pugging community goes for!So we can address his literal complaint (be it just or not), or sweep it under the rug (which imo you were doing).

You got the part where he is a new player and did not ping anything right? Where basically an experienced group had him tag along for B1-3 in Wing 5?

I did not sweep anything under the rug. I specifically explained to TC why he was kicked, and it had nothing to do with being on a necro. On the contrary, support necro kite is very useful on Dhuum. What you are doing though is using TCs completely unrelated kick from groups to complain about necromancer.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:My question to you is, how many times have you tried pugging in raids with a Necro (scourge, reaper, core, doesn't matter), and although it's kitten that there's a 100% pre-kick involved with playing Necro, it is, and I'm sure about that, the number one profession out there that receives the most -just because you choose this profession- kicks! And I don't believe posts/threads like these are going to help the community change in that sense. I believe it came to a point only ANet can.

Had a support Scrouge for the entire 2 hour 45 minute training run yesterday as second healer next to druid. Cleared VG, almost Gorse and Carin, MO and Samarog (we had 4 new players whos damage was just not high enough for Gorse). I've played my share of necromancer in raids (very likely a lot more than you) even if it's not among my main raid classes. Then again, I tend to use builds which are in demand, say like support Scourge currently.

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@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:(we had 4 new players whos damage was just not high enough for Gorse).

Was not high enough, or
was not high enough to ignore the updraft mechanics
?

Was not high enough at all. We did updrafts to get to 33% without issues.

We are literally talking new players who went into raids for the first time (and some without T4 fractal experience) . One with only condi Mirage, etc.

This was a relaxed raid guild run to introduce people to both the guild and raids. This guild is more of a welcome all friendly players type guild.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:(we had 4 new players whos damage was just not high enough for Gorse).

Was not high enough, or
was not high enough to ignore the updraft mechanics
?

Was not high enough at all. We did updrafts to get to 33% without issues.

We are literally talking new players who went into raids for the first time (and some without T4 fractal experience) . One with only condi Mirage, etc.

This was a relaxed raid guild run to introduce people to both the guild and raids. This guild is more of a welcome all friendly players type guild.

Oh ok... It was a legit question because people think is a Sin doing mechanics nowadays...

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@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:(we had 4 new players whos damage was just not high enough for Gorse).

Was not high enough, or
was not high enough to ignore the updraft mechanics
?

Was not high enough at all. We did updrafts to get to 33% without issues.

We are literally talking new players who went into raids for the first time (and some without T4 fractal experience) . One with only condi Mirage, etc.

This was a relaxed raid guild run to introduce people to both the guild and raids. This guild is more of a welcome all friendly players type guild.

Oh ok... It was a legit question because people think is a Sin doing mechanics nowadays...

Oh absolutely, it was actually fun to have to do mechanics on Gorse for once.

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Lost track of how many people I saw joining raid squads with clear requirements stated in LFG, that once in the squad, they kept quiet as a mouse. No ping at all.When asked, most of the time, they will keep quiet.If they actually say something, they start complaining that "how can I get KP if nobody allows me to play?"If you tell them to join training runs, most will say "training runs are for nubs! lul"If I make the mistake to give them a chance, 99% of the time I will be very sorry.For a long time, when commanded a raid squad, I did not kick anyone. Just spoke with them and explain them that this is not a training run.But...so many people have a very thick skin. They won't take no for an answer and won't leave the squad no matter what.So I started kicking. Man oh man, the mouth on some of the people if they get kicked for not meeting the requirements on LFG. Makes you want to disinfect the monitor.By the way, would love a fix from Anet so when someone gets the boot from a squad, they should not be able to join the squad for some time.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:(we had 4 new players whos damage was just not high enough for Gorse).

Was not high enough, or
was not high enough to ignore the updraft mechanics
?

Was not high enough at all. We did updrafts to get to 33% without issues.

We are literally talking new players who went into raids for the first time (and some without T4 fractal experience) . One with only condi Mirage, etc.

This was a relaxed raid guild run to introduce people to both the guild and raids. This guild is more of a welcome all friendly players type guild.

Oh ok... It was a legit question because people think is a Sin doing mechanics nowadays...

Oh absolutely, it was actually fun to have to do mechanics on Gorse for once.

I don't know about you but having Gorseval powered up extra 50% (by eating all the spirits) at 20%HP is painful as hell. I almost always flip out when all the noob DPS deal less damage than the off chrono. In the end, the training organizer is advised to pre-screen their trainees' golem-DPS before raids.

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Every successful run I did in VG involved a scourge support healer. They're clutch to beginner groups, more so than druids in my opinion, despite being overal more complex to use. I think that says Something. More so because most of those scourges were random players who joined in on our guild runs and played very well in spite of not knowing anyone in the team or their playstyle. I cant speak for all groups and all situations, but I'd say scourges are perfectly fine material for raids depending on the circumstances, just like pretty much every other class.

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OP - So many things going on in your post. Your experience highlights a number of issues with this part of the game that new players face, IMO.

First, GW2 PUG CM T4 and raid groups can be very intolerant of new players. There are many mechanics and details to the encounters to know and one person failing one of them can wipe the entire group. So, the PUGs put requirements in place to help ensure a successful run. Whether or not these requirements make sense is subject for another discussion. The way it currently is, it can be difficult to step up to CMs or raid groups because it can be hard to find training groups (especially for CMs). So it is a barrier to entry into this content and can be discouraging.

Second, it is highly likely that in your successful run you didn't perform all of the mechanics correctly and were not performing to the level expected by someone who is more experienced. This is natural - there is a lot going on in this content. It takes more than 1 or 2 runs to sort all of this out, what the mechanics are, how to perform your rotations optimally in an actual raid situation. While you are sorting things out you are asking the other members of your party to cover for you to some extent and risk failing the encounter, and many PUG groups don't want to take this risk.

Third, some PUGs at this level can be unaccepting of "non-meta" builds. This does not reflect the larger community and is not a reflection of the capability of your profession. Necros if played well are great in all of this content. It seems that much of the old dungeon speed runner elitism/toxicity (4 warrior/1 mesmer/zerk/5K AP/ping gear or kick - remember these?) ended up here.

You either have to deal with things as they are and continue to PUG, try to find a good guild group to run with, or stop doing the content.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

The KP and LI is the demand for proof of experience. Or at least successful boss kills.

Especially Dhuum and Qadim are bosses where you will not just get to tag along. Way to many mechanics which unless practiced will wipe your entire raid.

You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

It has to do with necro.I recently joined some groups as necro, because I got kps on him.Instantly got kicked before I even had the chance to ping kps.

Well, who is to blame?-necro has low single target DPS-and only average supportThe only thing necro is good at is rezzing people, but in my opinion, if you need to rezz someone, you failed your job as a support/healer

Problem:If scourge gets more DPS, scourge stacking will be a thing again, so you don't need healers due to barrier overflow. Well there would be solutions

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

The KP and LI is the demand for proof of experience. Or at least successful boss kills.

Especially Dhuum and Qadim are bosses where you will not just get to tag along. Way to many mechanics which unless practiced will wipe your entire raid.

You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

It has to do with necro.I recently joined some groups as necro, because I got kps on him.Instantly got kicked before I even had the chance to ping kps.

Well, who is to blame?-necro has low single target DPS-and only average supportThe only thing necro is good at is rezzing people, but in my opinion, if you need to rezz someone, you failed your job as a support/healer

Problem:If scourge gets more DPS, scourge stacking will be a thing again, so you don't need healers due to barrier overflow. Well there would be solutions

No it doesn't. If you do not have the raid experience as to why TC got kicked, read my explanation above.

TC was not kicked due to being necromancer in this instance. If you want to make this about necro in general, fine. But that has nothing to do with this specific instance and situation.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

The KP and LI is the demand for proof of experience. Or at least successful boss kills.

Especially Dhuum and Qadim are bosses where you will not just get to tag along. Way to many mechanics which unless practiced will wipe your entire raid.

You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

It has to do with necro.I recently joined some groups as necro, because I got kps on him.Instantly got kicked before I even had the chance to ping kps.

Well, who is to blame?-necro has low single target DPS-and only average supportThe only thing necro is good at is rezzing people, but in my opinion, if you need to rezz someone, you failed your job as a support/healer

Problem:If scourge gets more DPS, scourge stacking will be a thing again, so you don't need healers due to barrier overflow. Well there would be solutions

No it doesn't. If you do not have the raid experience as to why TC got kicked, read my explanation above.

TC was not kicked due to being necromancer in this instance. If you want to make this about necro in general, fine. But that has nothing to do with this specific instance and situation.

Ok your post sounded more like: it's only his fault, but it's clearly not all the time this players fault.

The community (and anet) in general is pretty much ignoring a lot of things

(Yes normally I'm also more like: I want to do my kills fast, but then, I'm not allowed to play my favourite class because it benches 4-6k below meta classes)

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@Nimon.7840 said:

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

The KP and LI is the demand for proof of experience. Or at least successful boss kills.

Especially Dhuum and Qadim are bosses where you will not just get to tag along. Way to many mechanics which unless practiced will wipe your entire raid.

You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

It has to do with necro.I recently joined some groups as necro, because I got kps on him.Instantly got kicked before I even had the chance to ping kps.

Well, who is to blame?-necro has low single target DPS-and only average supportThe only thing necro is good at is rezzing people, but in my opinion, if you need to rezz someone, you failed your job as a support/healer

Problem:If scourge gets more DPS, scourge stacking will be a thing again, so you don't need healers due to barrier overflow. Well there would be solutions

No it doesn't. If you do not have the raid experience as to why TC got kicked, read my explanation above.

TC was not kicked due to being necromancer in this instance. If you want to make this about necro in general, fine. But that has nothing to do with this specific instance and situation.

Ok your post sounded more like: it's only his fault, but it's clearly not all the time this players fault.

The community (and anet) in general is pretty much ignoring a lot of things

(Yes normally I'm also more like: I want to do my kills fast, but then, I'm not allowed to play my favourite class because it benches 4-6k below meta classes)

Go read what I wrote. This is a very specific situation. If you do not understand how Wing 5 works and what the fights require, I explained that up top.

If you can find a wing 5 group which is looking for experienced players and is willing to take a fully inexperienced heal scourge to Dhuum, great. I doubt that will ever be the case. Dhuum is among the 2 hardest bosses with the most instant wipe mechanics in the game. It makes no difference with which class you join when you have no experience, you will get removed. Ergo, it was not due to him being on necromancer.

He wasn't there as dps, he was on a support slot. Those do not get to afk Dhuum like some of the dps. The only thing you are proving here is that one can't take people with no experience along since some are to stubborn to even listen to advice and explanations.

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