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Raids and discrimination.


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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

The KP and LI is the demand for proof of experience. Or at least successful boss kills.

Especially Dhuum and Qadim are bosses where you will not just get to tag along. Way to many mechanics which unless practiced will wipe your entire raid.

You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

It has to do with necro.I recently joined some groups as necro, because I got kps on him.Instantly got kicked before I even had the chance to ping kps.

Well, who is to blame?-necro has low single target DPS-and only average supportThe only thing necro is good at is rezzing people, but in my opinion, if you need to rezz someone, you failed your job as a support/healer

Problem:If scourge gets more DPS, scourge stacking will be a thing again, so you don't need healers due to barrier overflow. Well there would be solutions

No it doesn't. If you do not have the raid experience as to why TC got kicked, read my explanation above.

TC was not kicked due to being necromancer in this instance. If you want to make this about necro in general, fine. But that has nothing to do with this specific instance and situation.

Ok your post sounded more like: it's only his fault, but it's clearly not all the time this players fault.

The community (and anet) in general is pretty much ignoring a lot of things

(Yes normally I'm also more like: I want to do my kills fast, but then, I'm not allowed to play my favourite class because it benches 4-6k below meta classes)

Go read what I wrote. This is a very specific situation. If you do not understand how Wing 5 works and what the fights require, I explained that up top.

If you can find a wing 5 group which is looking for experienced players and is willing to take a fully inexperienced heal scourge to Dhuum, great. I doubt that will ever be the case. Dhuum is among the 2 hardest bosses with the most instant wipe mechanics in the game. It makes no difference with which class you join when you have no experience, you will get removed. Ergo, it was not due to him being on necromancer.

He wasn't there as dps, he was on a support slot. Those do not get to afk Dhuum like some of the dps. The only thing you are proving here is that one can't take people with no experience along since some are to stubborn to even listen to advice and explanations.

I think that Nimon is not questioning your focus on the OP's particular case (and I wasn't either), although it's still a very specific focus (like you also mention yourself, btw), where you clearly jump into assumptions, which might be completely right, but still assumptions. You were not there with him/her while he/she was kicked (multiple times). And again, you might be completely right, and it sounds more than viable to me, that he/she was kicked at least once, for the reasons you mention. But he/she mentions multiple kicks! And to be fairly honest, being pre-kicked before you can even show your KP's, LI, etc. happens as well! And I don't even have to explain to you (I hope) for which reasons these particular pre-kicks happen, and which professions are mostly affected by these so called pre-kicks. It's a thing, you know! It happens! It's probably very hard for you to acknowledge it, but believe me, it happens!!!

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the group

The KP and LI is the demand for proof of experience. Or at least successful boss kills.

Especially Dhuum and Qadim are bosses where you will not just get to tag along. Way to many mechanics which unless practiced will wipe your entire raid.

You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

It has to do with necro.I recently joined some groups as necro, because I got kps on him.Instantly got kicked before I even had the chance to ping kps.

Well, who is to blame?-necro has low single target DPS-and only average supportThe only thing necro is good at is rezzing people, but in my opinion, if you need to rezz someone, you failed your job as a support/healer

Problem:If scourge gets more DPS, scourge stacking will be a thing again, so you don't need healers due to barrier overflow. Well there would be solutions

No it doesn't. If you do not have the raid experience as to why TC got kicked, read my explanation above.

TC was not kicked due to being necromancer in this instance. If you want to make this about necro in general, fine. But that has nothing to do with this specific instance and situation.

Ok your post sounded more like: it's only his fault, but it's clearly not all the time this players fault.

The community (and anet) in general is pretty much ignoring a lot of things

(Yes normally I'm also more like: I want to do my kills fast, but then, I'm not allowed to play my favourite class because it benches 4-6k below meta classes)

Go read what I wrote. This is a very specific situation. If you do not understand how Wing 5 works and what the fights require, I explained that up top.

If you can find a wing 5 group which is looking for experienced players and is willing to take a fully inexperienced heal scourge to Dhuum, great. I doubt that will ever be the case. Dhuum is among the 2 hardest bosses with the most instant wipe mechanics in the game. It makes no difference with which class you join when you have no experience, you will get removed. Ergo, it was not due to him being on necromancer.

He wasn't there as dps, he was on a support slot. Those do not get to afk Dhuum like some of the dps. The only thing you are proving here is that one can't take people with no experience along since some are to stubborn to even listen to advice and explanations.

I think that Nimon is not questioning your focus on the OP's particular case (and I wasn't either), although it's still a very specific focus (like you also mention yourself, btw), where you clearly jump into assumptions, which might be completely right, but still assumptions. You were not there with him/her while he/she was kicked (multiple times). And again, you
might
be completely right, and it sounds more than viable to me, that he/she was kicked at least once, for the reasons
you
mention. But he/she mentions multiple kicks!

I don't have to be present to understand what happened when someone gives a very clear explanation of the events with such a specific case. TC is very open and honest about his experience, what his actions were and what transpired. I also raid enough to be on the other side and to have experienced people with no experience join raid groups.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:And to be fairly honest, being pre-kicked before you can even show your KP's, LI, etc. happens as well! And I don't even have to explain to you (I hope) for which reasons these particular pre-kicks happen, and which professions are mostly affected by these so called pre-kicks. It's a thing, you know! It happens! It's probably very hard for you to acknowledge it, but believe me, it happens!!!

I have NEVER seen someone getting pre-kicked within 30 seconds (unless the comm or someone else had the person blocked with justified reason). I have seen people get kicked after 30+ seconds when they did not ping. This actually happens quite regularly. Often the comm will ask for the demanded proof/ping, sometimes they will just remove someone. This increases with experience level of the groups. 1k LI groups which go for fast kills do not wait around for people to ping, it's a given and shows an initial understanding of how the PUG raid system works. Not to mention, if you are looking for people with XZY amount of LI, KP or experience, you will hardly judge them based on the character they join your raid. Experienced raiders know that every player can have more than 1 character to his account.

Could this happen? Sure. Would it be very seldom? You bet. Would someone get removed IF:

  • he did not ping his LI/KP within a reasonable time
  • he joined the raid instance without pinging LI/KP
  • he joined the raid instance on a class which was not being searched for which people do not expect to be able to perform the role required

None of the above is limited to necromancer by the way. I am not saying necromancer is the most desired class, but this situation is not raid discrimination based on being a necromancer. In todays Full Clear I ran on the 2nd healer/dps spot in a PUG group (100 Dhuum KP, 50 Qadim KP, we cleared in 3 hours 6 minutes since Xera took 3 tries). As second heal/dps I ran the following classes:

  • DareDevil on Gorse, Sabetha, Sloth, Trio, Escort, KC, MO, Samarog, CA
  • Heal Firebrand on Xera (we had issues running solo heal), River events, Dhuum (stack), Twins (edited, forgot that I wasn't on Mirage for this fight since we didn't use portal strat but split)
  • Mirage on Cairn
  • Heal Scourge on VG, Matthias, Desmina, Qadim (no solo kite)

Every dps was expected to switch according to boss. Literally the ONLY classes which were not expected to switch were: chrono 1, chrono 2, druid main heal, warrior.

For safer strats Heal Scourge could (and should in less experienced groups) be taken for Sabetha, Sloth and MO and Dhuum if the necro can kite (which I can't) over most other healers (due to its barrier mechanic).

So when people come here and complain that necro is not seeing play in the meta, I really have no clue what they are talking about.

Yes, in less experienced groups players have not adapted.Yes, there is a strong bias against necromancer and many less experienced groups prefer double druid.Yes, if you join PUG groups you will be exposed to this inefficiency.No, necromancer does not see less play than before.No, necromancer is not being discriminated against compared to other dps (all dps need to switch starting a specific level of skill).No, there is almost no dps class which allows people to stay on that class for ALL 6 wings except for the support roles.

If you want to play necromancer, that's fine. Role a support spec, run in a decent composition with a druid and never have to switch. If you want to run dps and hope to never have to switch, get with the program because right now, no dps class gets to do that.

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

In a sick way it's comforting I'm not the only one in this situation... Anet really hates Necros don't they ?

Not really, it might not be the class I would recommend for someone who starts raids and they might not be top tier for most bosses on dps, but outside of speed runs, necros see play.

Getting kicked in the situation Jeknar describes are far and seldom in todays GW2 (also a result of players being able to check performance).

Just to be clear, you were not kicked due to being a necro.

So in other words, people in Raids want pure DPS and not someone that keeps em healthy since they can retry from a checkpoint anyway. Maybe i'll make a chronomancer or stay clear of this all together

Dhuum is not a boss for new ppl since 1 mistake from you can wipe the group

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Just some mins ago there was some dude at the aerodrome shouting "I just got kicked out of a group because I was in exotics, Raiding community toxic asf again".Turns out he was kicked cuz he was playing DH on Matthias and doing 6k DPS.

That's the kind of players who make this kind of complaints.That's the kind of players that give "casuals" a bad reputation among people who raid.That's the kind of players that give us people who raid a bad reputation among "casuals".

Can we just start replying to all this kind of posts with a simple "GIT GUD" and not get a warning from the mods?please Anet <3.

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@"gonandro.4768" said:Just some mins ago there was some dude at the aerodrome shouting "I just got kicked out of a group because I was in exotics, Raiding community toxic asf again".Turns out he was kicked cuz he was playing DH on Matthias and doing 6k DPS.

That's the kind of players who make this kind of complaints.That's the kind of players that give "casuals" a bad reputation among people who raid.That's the kind of players that give us people who raid a bad reputation among "casuals".

Can we just start replying to all this kind of posts with a simple "GIT GUD" and not get a warning from the mods?please Anet <3.

But why take personal responsibility when it is just so much easier to blame everyone but yourself? The way the usual people instantly jump on such stories to add to how toxic everyone but themselves is based on mostly stories they heard secondhand or even more likely stereotypes about raiders from other games says more than enough already.

Those who have run training raids could tell many stories. Stories about players claiming they'd love nothing more than to get started on raiding and playing that druid healer they have heard so much about. Players who then can't be bothered to acquire even the most basic set of exotic gear, let alone the elite spec in question. Showing up with their core ranger in some terrible mix of gear for weeks.Stories which ultimately end with them leaving as they "didn't realise this group was that kind of group" and "they don't much enjoy toxic environments". Which usually happens after you bring up the issue in private messages with the offer of further help because you just can't continue to justify their performance and attitude given how unfair it is to the other newbies in your group who are trying SO much harder to get their first kill on some new boss.

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@"Henry.5713" said:But why take personal responsibility when it is just so much easier to blame everyone but yourself? The way the usual people instantly jump on such stories to add to how toxic everyone but themselves is based on mostly stories they heard secondhand or even more likely stereotypes about raiders from other games says more than enough already.

Those who have run training raids could tell many stories. Stories about players claiming they'd love nothing more than to get started on raiding and playing that druid healer they have heard so much about. Players who then can't be bothered to acquire even the most basic set of exotic gear, let alone the elite spec in question. Showing up with their core ranger in some terrible mix of gear for weeks.Stories which ultimately end with them leaving as they "didn't realise this group was that kind of group" and "they don't much enjoy toxic environments". Which usually happens after you bring up the issue in private messages with the offer of further help because you just can't continue to justify their performance and attitude given how unfair it is to the other newbies in your group who are trying SO much harder to get their first kill on some new boss.

Give this man a medal.

"BUt RAidS aRe ToXiC!!111!!!11!!!!" said the dude that could not even bother to understand what his class does and ready up for the raids

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You get extremes to both sides unfortunately. I remember pugging Samarog one time on my condi Renegade and the Commander was screaming for more CC, because there was a real struggle for CC for some reason. I told him/her I can switch over to staff on CC times, but it’s going to goof up my dps with the condi. The Commander then said fine. We get the kill and then he boots me for having low dps.

/shrugs

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@polvere.2805 said:

@"Henry.5713" said:But why take personal responsibility when it is just so much easier to blame everyone but yourself? The way the usual people instantly jump on such stories to add to how toxic everyone but themselves is based on mostly stories they heard secondhand or even more likely stereotypes about raiders from other games says more than enough already.

Those who have run training raids could tell many stories. Stories about players claiming they'd love nothing more than to get started on raiding and playing that druid healer they have heard so much about. Players who then can't be bothered to acquire even the most basic set of exotic gear, let alone the elite spec in question. Showing up with their core ranger in some terrible mix of gear for weeks.Stories which ultimately end with them leaving as they "didn't realise this group was that kind of group" and "they don't much enjoy toxic environments". Which usually happens after you bring up the issue in private messages with the offer of further help because you just can't continue to justify their performance and attitude given how unfair it is to the other newbies in your group who are trying SO much harder to get their first kill on some new boss.

Give this man a medal.

"BUt RAidS aRe ToXiC!!111!!!11!!!!" said the dude that could not even bother to understand what his class does and ready up for the raids

We need to take back the forums from these entitled bad players who blame everything and everyone but themselves.

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:I'm just a person that tries to make something out of life after every setback and curve ball, but I guess if you're treated like an outcast in real life it also reflects online and there is no point trying to be something else. Anyone else in the same pandemonium ?

I have to say sorry for your experience. But I do want to say, what happens to you in real life (being an outcast) isn't immediately translated in game. You could be a celebrity in real life and some players will still treat you as you were treated. In terms of easing your social anxiety, I'll say to you the same thing I say to guildies and players that are new to raids. Have three characters that cover three different roles for raids.

1) Power DPS 2) Condi DPS 3) Support/Healer 4) Tank.

Choose 3 out of those 4 roles and become good with those three characters only. Once you feel confident in those three, then branch out with other characters. If three roles are two much focus on two roles. Limiting yourself to one role, will get you kicked out of groups fast if your solo role is already filled in a group. Some commanders can be arrogant and won't accept necros. But that would not affect you because you have 1 to 2 other characters you can play well. Lastly, find a guild that is willing to accept people variety of their class, roles, or experience. :D

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:You getting kicked had nothing to do with being on necromancer but more with not pinging the relevant kill proof and/or LI.

I've seen people kicking necros for the simply sake of being necros tho... Problably not a daily occurancy, but certainly not as uncommon as people make it to be.

JcfqSCa.png

Hmmm haven't seen that in a while, but I won't disagree that it might occur. Then again, that would be a clear sign for me to not stick with the squad for long, since the very least one should give a player who "passes" entry requirements is: see how they perform (and not doing so is showing lack of understanding).

Unfortunately though, you are right, some people will go with their "gut feeling", no matter how misplaced or wrong it might be.

Thats the thing. I got in and I was pulling my weight you know keeping people healthy and a permanent barrier uptime, but as soon as we got to Dhuum the Squad leader said "This is not for your kind". I get that he's hard and all that but atleast give me a chance to prove myself. I did some research before entering and used a build from snowcrows. I never died (made some minor mistakes true)

That's not your job on Dhuum as healer though.

Your job as healer on Dhuum (as stack necro) is:
  • boons (which necro provides almost none)
  • healing (which necro is fine for)
  • condition cleanse on phases
  • proper positioning
  • know how to deal with specific mechanics like the bomb and shackles (both of which can either wipe the raid, or kill 1-2 people within 3-4 seconds)

If an experienced group had you tag along for B1-3, then they had figured by now you are lacking experience for Dhuum. Boss 1 is no biggy since all you have to do as support scourge is tag along with the group (no risk what so ever to wipe the raid), river and statues are mini boss events who absolutely do not matter, Dhum is probably the hardest raid boss in the game (depending on if you consider Dhuum or Qadim harder). That's how wing 5 is built up.

What you described so far is: an experienced group decided to have you tag along and carry you through the first 3 bosses on wing 5, since all the mechanics were covered and a bit of barrier from the second healer is all that is needed. THen when reaching Dhuum they had to replace you.

That's the most honest comment i've been given, I had no idea he was THAT hard. Maybe I'll roll a chrono or druid. I'll make it work

Necro provide might and the other healer/kiter & chronos can provide the other boons. You can use a necro healer on Dhuum just fine, in fact you can even be kiter on Dhuum. Also, the bosses before Dhuum were in preparation for Dhuum. The commander could have explained the bare minimum of the mechanics to you, but they didn't want to. However, it is a good idea to read up on bosses before doing them. Some commanders are willing to take inexperience people, if they read up on the boss beforehand.

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@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Nothing about exp but there were a couple with ping kp , but my point is how can you even gain exp if no one wants you in the groupYour inability to get experience is not the responsibility of that raid's commander. That commander's responsibility to the players they are leading is to get the kill, which requires experienced players. The commander required kill proof and you didn't have it, rather than deflecting, learn from that mistake.

@CountMozenrath.7631 said:Thats the thing. I got in and I was pulling my weight you know keeping people healthy and a permanent barrier uptime, but as soon as we got to Dhuum the Squad leader said "This is not for your kind". I get that he's hard and all that but atleast give me a chance to prove myself. I did some research before entering and used a build from snowcrows. I never died (made some minor mistakes true)

You should first learn about the fight before you tell us how we should raid. You need to remember something, bosses have a time limit, and dhuum's time limit is actually a problem in pug groups where often players die throughout the fight to deadly mechanics, and the boss is killed with only 7 players still alive, who often arn't that great at dps anyways. So, unlike soulless horror (where groups often bring 3 healers and 2 minstrel chronos and still kill without time limit issues), dhuum requires some actual optimized group comp.

How does that optimization manifest itself? Well, first you need to know about the green circles mechanic. Lets assume your in a group that brings 2 healers for the group at dhuum (mine doesn't but many pugs do). 3 players need to take turns taking green circles up to the ceiling and collecting 5 orbs as they float around. While a player is floating around, they can't contribute to the group. So, we want to send the least impact players into the green circles. Warriors are great because they can drop their banners and still buff the group while doing the greens mechanic. Additionally off chrono is a good choice, as that chrono can drop time warp, wells, soi, and shield 5 and then the group has alacrity and quickness even while the off chrono is doing the greens mechanic. But then there is still a third player who needs to do greens. You could send a dps player, but unlike a boon class which can do its job for 30 seconds in a quick burst, dps players have a more steady constant output, even bursty classes like holo/dragonhunter are no where near as bursty as the boon classes. So dps players are usually not a good choice for greens. If your running 2 healers on the group (note, a third healer is dedicated to kiting the golems), you typically send at least one of the healers, some groups send both and keep the warrior or off chrono on the ground doing damage.

But there is the problem. If they send you, an inexperienced player, its basically a guarantee you will die because the greens mechanic requires some actual practice time to get down. In fact there are even videos showing how to solo practice that mechanic (/watch?v=NGT-m933_xQ), because people wanted to practice without wasting their groups time.

So, obviously they could send the other healer instead of you. But here's the problem. Druid is the meta healer because it provides party wide might. Necro simply doesn't have that power. Additionally, when the druid is up grabbing orbs, your the only healer, and you don't heal much, you mostly barrier. Barrier is great, but it isn't healing, and it has an expiration date. You can argue that it's bull shit that anet makes druid healer so much better than other choices by giving it party wide might and ranger spirits. And I would totally support you if you complain that the meta healer is so much better than non-meta healers, it is broken. But that doesn't change the fact that people want to get dhuum kills today, not in 3 years when healers are balanced.

TLDR: bringing a necro healer as a second healer is fine on some bosses, but on dhuum in particular, its not a great choice.

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BTW, I don't have names. There are a group of players 4 or five of them in EU, they would jump into pug groups that advertised for 100li etc.. They are obviously experienced and capable of low men raids.They jumped into pug group of such with intention to humiliate ppl. After one boss, they will pick on someone and tried to humiliate him. Keep eyes out for these looser and report them.

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@Talindra.4958 said:BTW, I don't have names. There are a group of players 4 or five of them in EU, they would jump into pug groups that advertised for 100li etc.. They are obviously experienced and capable of low men raids.They jumped into pug group of such with intention to humiliate ppl. After one boss, they will pick on someone and tried to humiliate him. Keep eyes out for these looser and report them.

Goodness, there is a guild of some kittens like that in NA, too. I blacklist them and simply invite them out of my squad if they happen to join.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

I don't wanna be offensive, I'm pretty new myself, but isn't it so that games are an escape from real life? I mean games are just for fun, it's nothing like the real business life and stuff, I get that there are groups that are very passionate/competitive and want to get to the top with raids and stuff but still, toxicity and discrimination shouldn't exist in a game, it's just really silly in my opinion. Can't we all just move on and play the game? Because when reaching a point where people discriminate others just by PROFESSION or build then these so called pro's are just being stupid/ruining the game for others, no?

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@Speedylord.2798 said:I don't wanna be offensive, I'm pretty new myself, but isn't it so that games are an escape from real life? I mean games are just for fun, it's nothing like the real business life and stuff, I get that there are groups that are very passionate/competitive and want to get to the top with raids and stuff but still, toxicity and discrimination shouldn't exist in a game, it's just really silly in my opinion. Can't we all just move on and play the game? Because when reaching a point where people discriminate others just by PROFESSION or build then these so called pro's are just being stupid/ruining the game for others, no?

It's not about toxic or elitism etc. Raids have requirements made by the game itself.You are free to go and play and have fun in game, question here is, would this people want to play with you, when you are not prepared to meet the game requirements.Meaning never done it, don't know the mech etc. Otherwise you are free to join training runs, spend time to get familiar with fight and go join LFG after.

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@phs.6089 said:

@Speedylord.2798 said:I don't wanna be offensive, I'm pretty new myself, but isn't it so that games are an escape from real life? I mean games are just for fun, it's nothing like the real business life and stuff, I get that there are groups that are very passionate/competitive and want to get to the top with raids and stuff but still, toxicity and discrimination shouldn't exist in a game, it's just really silly in my opinion. Can't we all just move on and play the game? Because when reaching a point where people discriminate others just by PROFESSION or build then these so called pro's are just being stupid/ruining the game for others, no?

It's not about toxic or elitism etc. Raids have requirements made by the game itself.You are free to go and play and have fun in game, question here is, would this people want to play with you, when you are not prepared to meet the game requirements.Meaning never done it, don't know the mech etc. Otherwise you are free to join training runs, spend time to get familiar with fight and go join LFG after.

Ok! Sorry I didn't know that, thx for pointing it out! So raids are open for all, someone new to raids can do raids without getting dismissed by a lack of experience (except maybe the bossfight itself) ?

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@Speedylord.2798 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@Speedylord.2798 said:I don't wanna be offensive, I'm pretty new myself, but isn't it so that games are an escape from real life? I mean games are just for fun, it's nothing like the real business life and stuff, I get that there are groups that are very passionate/competitive and want to get to the top with raids and stuff but still, toxicity and discrimination shouldn't exist in a game, it's just really silly in my opinion. Can't we all just move on and play the game? Because when reaching a point where people discriminate others just by PROFESSION or build then these so called pro's are just being stupid/ruining the game for others, no?

It's not about toxic or elitism etc. Raids have requirements made by the game itself.You are free to go and play and have fun in game, question here is, would this people want to play with you, when you are not prepared to meet the game requirements.Meaning never done it, don't know the mech etc. Otherwise you are free to join training runs, spend time to get familiar with fight and go join LFG after.

Ok! Sorry I didn't know that, thx for pointing it out! So raids are open for all, someone new to raids can do raids without getting dismissed by a lack of experience (except maybe the bossfight itself) ?

There are raids training group made by community, you are more then welcome to join on discord and if have time go to training runs to learn, from the top of my head its raiders inn but raiders in this topic will point you more accurate.

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@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@Speedylord.2798 said:I don't wanna be offensive, I'm pretty new myself, but isn't it so that games are an escape from real life? I mean games are just for fun, it's nothing like the real business life and stuff, I get that there are groups that are very passionate/competitive and want to get to the top with raids and stuff but still, toxicity and discrimination shouldn't exist in a game, it's just really silly in my opinion. Can't we all just move on and play the game? Because when reaching a point where people discriminate others just by PROFESSION or build then these so called pro's are just being stupid/ruining the game for others, no?

It's not about toxic or elitism etc. Raids have requirements made by the game itself.You are free to go and play and have fun in game, question here is, would this people want to play with you, when you are not prepared to meet the game requirements.Meaning never done it, don't know the mech etc. Otherwise you are free to join training runs, spend time to get familiar with fight and go join LFG after.

Ok! Sorry I didn't know that, thx for pointing it out! So raids are open for all, someone new to raids can do raids without getting dismissed by a lack of experience (except maybe the bossfight itself) ?

There are raids training group made by community, you are more then welcome to join on discord and if have time go to training runs to learn, from the top of my head its raiders inn but raiders in this topic will point you more accurate.

Cool! I'll definitely check them out!! (I'm new to raids as well ehe)

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I dont get where this attitude of "just hop in and play every part of the game" has come from. Looking a couple of years back (5+), nobody would even have dared entering veteran instanced group content without at least reading a guide beforehand and gearing accordingly.

But to answer your question @"Speedylord.2798" , no raids arent open for all. And "playing for fun" stops where you ruin others fun. If someone searches in his/her lfg for an experienced raider (200LI+ or 20KP+ usually indicate "experienced"), and you join that lfg as someone:1) without experience of the bosses2) without knowledge of your build3) without properly geared characterThen no, that LFG is not for you.If you only want to raid because "its part of the game and I bought it" or you are only there because of shiny loot, then no. Raids arent for you.

If you are interested in starting to raid because you like the concept of it, then theres some work (about 2-3 hours worth of it in gw2) you have to put into it first. Theres a ton of guides out there to read and watch (I usually endorse the ones from mightyteapot and just using the wiki for clarifications). You should join a training community guild. Decide on a role to play mainly (support heal, dps buffer, or just plain dps) then gear accordingly 1-2 characters and learn the basic rotation in the trainingsarena at the golem. After you've done all those preparations, you join training runs organized by your training guild - or if you are a bit more masochistic, then join trainings LFGs until you have sufficient experience on every boss.If you want to do that, are willing to put some time and effort into it. Then yes, raids definitely are for you. Done correctly, raids can be the most fun you have in an mmo.

And to answer on the earlier post, no, games arent "an escape from reality". They are a hobby. And as with every hobby, you put some effort in it. If you want to "escape reality" for a bit, Id advise reading a good book. Or watching a movie. Listening to music. Games are more on a level with gardening and such hobbies.

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@Speedylord.2798 said:I don't wanna be offensive, I'm pretty new myself, but isn't it so that games are an escape from real life? I mean games are just for fun, it's nothing like the real business life and stuff, I get that there are groups that are very passionate/competitive and want to get to the top with raids and stuff but still, toxicity and discrimination shouldn't exist in a game, it's just really silly in my opinion. Can't we all just move on and play the game? Because when reaching a point where people discriminate others just by PROFESSION or build then these so called pro's are just being stupid/ruining the game for others, no?

Look at it from the other point of view. Players who have 2k boss kills don't get enjoyment out of anything besides a quick and efficient kill. If a new player joints an experienced group who are looking for an experienced player, and wipes the group constantly by not knowing mechanics, that new player is ruining the game for others, no?

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@thrag.9740 said:

@Speedylord.2798 said:I don't wanna be offensive, I'm pretty new myself, but isn't it so that games are an escape from real life? I mean games are just for fun, it's nothing like the real business life and stuff, I get that there are groups that are very passionate/competitive and want to get to the top with raids and stuff but still, toxicity and discrimination shouldn't exist in a game, it's just really silly in my opinion. Can't we all just move on and play the game? Because when reaching a point where people discriminate others just by PROFESSION or build then these so called pro's are just being stupid/ruining the game for others, no?

Look at it from the other point of view. Players who have 2k boss kills don't get enjoyment out of anything besides a quick and efficient kill. If a new player joints an experienced group who are looking for an experienced player, and wipes the group constantly by not knowing mechanics, that new player is ruining the game for others, no?

This.

People keep forgetting the other 9 people in the squad. Some here have over 1-2k LI and over 50 boss kills per boss (and over 100 on earlier bosses). If experienced players want to help out or help new players, they do so in training runs. Some do, some don't, but there is nothing wrong with looking for people of equal experience level when wanting to clear content.

Discrimination is obviously never okay. Though I don't see not grouping with someone as discrimination. I get to chose who I want to play with (just as every body else does), and who that might be can differ on what my goals at that point in time are.

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You either fit the requirements needed to accomplish a certain task or you do not. Nobody in their right mind would complain about a cleaning lady not being hired for a surgeon position at their local hospital either. Choosing the most suited person when given multiple more or less fitting canditates is just common sense also.

I for one certainly refuse to be treated like some sort of child who is forced to "play" with some "entitled kid" to stop them from feeling bad and and sad. Your weakest link quite often dictates which pace and strategies are avaible to your group. Or to come back to the analogy - the youngest child sets the benchmark for which activities are consider appropriate for the entire group which is not fun for most of the "older children" no matter how certain parents refuse said point.

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