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RIP Banner Slaves and warriors in general


Atticus.7194

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Warrior

Banner skills have long been very passive in nature. Today we're releasing some changes to give them a bit more active gameplay while also reducing their granted attributes to give greater role flexibility in group settings. However, we do think that the warrior gives up a lot in order to use them, so we're increasing the bonus stat gains when warriors equip traits that modify banners. As a larger change, we're also removing the bundle skills from banners and changing the pick-up action to now recharge the banner skill. Previously, the banner skills could be a trap for players, providing weaker skills in a bundle that anyone could interact with. We considered enhancing the banner skills, but we don't want banners to be alternate weapons that take away from a player's normal weapons.

• Banner skills have been reworked as follows:

Banners no longer have skills and are instead destroyed when they're picked up.Banners can now only be picked up by the warrior who summoned them.Reduced all banners' stat gains from 170 to 100 at level 80.Banners' durations have been reduced from 90 seconds to 60 seconds.All utility-slot banner skills have had their recharge times reduced from 120 seconds to 80 seconds.Picking up a banner now reduces the recharge time of that banner by 60 seconds.• Battle Standard: Resynced the time at which a banner appears to properly line up with the effect. When planted in the ground, this banner skill now deals damage to foes within a radius >of 180. Foes who are in a downed state are now finished when damaged by Battle Standard. This skill's targeting reticle will now display the radius for effects that finish foes who are in a >downed state and effects that revive allies.

• Winds of Disenchantment: This is now a channeled skill, and it will follow the warrior. Its pulse time has been reduced from 1 second to 0.5 seconds with the duration remaining at 5 seconds. Breaking the channel will now destroy the spell. The casting time has been reduced to 0.5 seconds.

• Inspiring Battle Standard: This trait has been renamed Doubled Standards. It no longer causes banners to apply regeneration and instead causes the warrior to gain 5 seconds of swiftness when summoning or picking up a banner. Additionally, the banner effect improvements that are gained when this trait is equipped have been increased from 50% to 100%.

Sooo basically we now have to have the dynamic gameplay of picking up and putting down banners every 60 seconds. That's some exciting new content.

Glad to see they completely ignored their chance to fix spellbreakers too. NGL I can't see why you would ever bring a warrior in any scenario anymore.

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Who said we "have to" pick up banner while busy hitting boss ?

There's a balance between being a full bs and a "dps" with banners. If reset banner means your rotation will be interrupt and lose dps, then you can only do that during any phase time that each boss has.

If you think maintain these professional boons is your major job on the team, then you'll never walk out of BS jail.

But I suppose someone just like it.

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Y’know, the community has been surprisingly level-headed about reading the patch notes (I’m guessing because of the good communication here and the other recent events). Your knee-jerk reply would just be another normal response to a balance patch, but comes across as particularly harsh with so many other people taking the notes on a more reasonable level.

As for your argument, banner warriors are going nowhere. A nerf to the overall stat benefit of banners doesn’t negate that they are still such a net positive, particularly since warriors have much better personal DPS than they have had in the past.

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Yeah, it changes nothing for BS warriors. Its still gonna be super used and super strong. Flat increase to attributes of 200 is not something you pass on. Not to mention how it can kickstart your swiftness for Warrior's Sprint

You also probably missed the part where battle standard now deals dps and kills downed enemies. Expect to see battle standard at every node in PvP in the future

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@Dahkeus.8243 said:Y’know, the community has been surprisingly level-headed about reading the patch notes (I’m guessing because of the good communication here and the other recent events). Your knee-jerk reply would just be another normal response to a balance patch, but comes across as particularly harsh with so many other people taking the notes on a more reasonable level.

As for your argument, banner warriors are going nowhere. A nerf to the overall stat benefit of banners doesn’t negate that they are still such a net positive, particularly since warriors have much better personal DPS than they have had in the past.

I'm annoyed more at how tedious this sounds, hitting F and ` every 60 seconds does not sound like engaging dynamic fun.

Also what community response, this is the only thread on the warrior portion of the forums about this atm.

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@Atticus.7194 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:Y’know, the community has been surprisingly level-headed about reading the patch notes (I’m guessing because of the good communication here and the other recent events). Your knee-jerk reply would just be another normal response to a balance patch, but comes across as particularly harsh with so many other people taking the notes on a more reasonable level.

As for your argument, banner warriors are going nowhere. A nerf to the overall stat benefit of banners doesn’t negate that they are still such a net positive, particularly since warriors have much better personal DPS than they have had in the past.

I'm annoyed more at how tedious this sounds, hitting F and ` every 60 seconds does not sound like engaging dynamic fun.

Also what community response, this is the only thread on the warrior portion of the forums about this atm.

Im not sure but should Banners not have perma uptime with alacrity now?

Also i don’t understand the new banner trait.

Does only the warrior get 200 or everyone?

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The patch isn't out for another few days (Tuesday / March 5).

When traited the warrior gets +200 power / precision / ferocity with strength and discipline instead of +255.

@"RabbitUp.8294" said:With alacrity the cd drops down to 64s, while the banner lasts 60s. So the "steep" price for not picking them up is 4s of downtime.This

Druid spirits also will lose health, so it's really preemptive to say anything definitive other than that damage bonuses were toned down.

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Good. I'd rather see people contribute CC anyway, so rando-screamos can stop screaming "OMG NO ONE EVER BRINGS CC"

@Atticus.7194 said:Sooo basically we now have to have the dynamic gameplay of picking up and putting down banners every 60 seconds.With 80 as a base now, it says the pickup reduces BY 60, not TO. You literally get refunded the entire duration from a pickup. You will never have more than 20 seconds of downtime, whether you pick it up early or let it wear out.

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I hope they won't change aoe res radius. If it will be same as finishing radius (180) then pretty much rip...Picking both banners (Discipline and Strength) just to destroy them and then resummon them... not sure if this is going to be fun and enjoyable thing to do.

Also, the trait bonus to stats will be now 200 compared to 255. And as there was no wording to indicate trait change for group, it will be most likely only for warrior.Unless there is missing more info, it looks like significant nerf to banners for group and for warrior in PvE.

We shall see on Thuesday, but so far it seems banners will be nerfed and changed, not improved.

WoD bubble changes... can't wait for it being interrupted all the time with stability corruption, etc. In PvE, another dps downtime together with picking banners.

To add, it is pretty sad to see no fixes/polishing for warrior... nor power berserker changes. Now to wait another 3 months again...

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There looks to be some confusion over the exact wording of the upcoming patch notes, but I think the most accurate interpretation is for raiding:

Major nerfs:Banners loses -42% of the stats gain to the group.The warrior itself looses -22% of banners stats and twice a much DPS loss to banner cast time.Winds of Disenchantment reduce DPS to zero while being used, and can't be used in cases like dhuum.

Minor improvements:Banners can no longer be mistakenly be used when someone intend to resurrect a playerPossible easier to move banner placement as a fight progressBattle Standard can cause damage. Relevance is unknown.

To be fair, banners was the single highest DPS increase in the game, with banners alone calculated to provide about around 13% dps increase per player. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/9m0r05/raids_how_goodvaluable_are_banners_really/).

With some simplification, If we assume the old standard pug meta of 2 druids, 2 chrono, 1 bs and 5 dps what we get is strength banner represented alone 65% of an additional power DPS player. For condi we are talking about a bit above half 37.5%.

With the nerfs, what anet did was to bring power down to the same level as old condi, ie 37.5% with 5 power dps. For condi we are talking about 21%. This makes bringing a warrior for fights a question if the warrior personal dps + banners dps is higher or lower than an additional dps role. Here we can use gw2raidar to get a bit of a hint for specific bosses (https://www.gw2raidar.com/).

Lets use some very loose counting and rounding the numbers a bit, and I will also start with MO as it is the closest we have to a golem. The average power dps player has around 23k dps where about 3k came from banners. The average banner slave personal dps is 19k, where 2k came from banners. The total damage banners give is then 53 +2 = 17k, giving the banner slave a total dps of 19-2 + 53+2 = 34k dps vs the 23 -3 = 20k that an additional dps role would bring to the table. 34 is a bigger number than 20, so a banner slave is better when paired with 5 power dps players. With the nerf we can simply half that banners effect making the warrior doing 19-2 + (5*3 +2)/2 = 25.5. 25.5 is also a bigger number than 20.

Now for the other bosses you get more noise, but lets just decide from a glance on Samarog that a dps role should hit around 13k and a bs around 10k. The banner brought 1.5k for the dps and 1k for the bs. 9 + 1.5*5 + 1 = 17.5k vs 11.5k. With the nerf the bs does 13.25k vs 11.5k that a additional power role would bring.

What about condi? Lets start with golem cairn: 20k average for condi dps and 14k for average condi banner. Banners bring in this case half the effectiveness, so we get 1.5k per dps and 1k for the warrior. 13+1.55 +1 = 21.5k vs 18.5k that an additional dps role would bring. With the nerf the warrior does 13 + (155+1)/2 = 17 vs 18.5k that a dps role bring. 17k is less than 18.5k, so in cairn you should no longer bring a banner warrior if you use 5 condi dps and 5 support.

I was about to do the same calculations for matt which is a more complicated condition boss, but the numbers are basically identical.

The margins and additional consideration is when you consider groups with fewer support roles and the dps from support roles. The general rule of banner slaves always being good is not as true as it once was, but it is likely still true for power encounter. For condition encounters I would claim that it depends on the group.

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One thing was forgotten in patch notes about warrior. After banners nerf warrior should get class specific title achivement "Usless: I'm garbage you know" .That would be i line with those changes because warrior can't bring anything to party.He can't do dps he can't support . So i think the Title achivement would be aproppriate. Only thing i like about it is that it will be possible to move then around but we wont see that often in action coz why bother.

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@Belorn.2659 said:Lets use some very loose counting and rounding the numbers a bit, and I will also start with MO as it is the closest we have to a golem. The average power dps player has around 23k dps where about 3k came from banners. The average banner slave personal dps is 19k, where 2k came from banners. The total damage banners give is then 53 +2 = 17k, giving the banner slave a total dps of 19-2 + 53+2 = 34k dps vs the 23 -3 = 20k that an additional dps role would bring to the table. 34 is a bigger number than 20, so a banner slave is better when paired with 5 power dps players. With the nerf we can simply half that banners effect making the warrior doing 19-2 + (5*3 +2)/2 = 25.5. 25.5 is also a bigger number than 20.

Interesting stuff. So what about in a fractal environment? Are BS still worth taking, or would it be better to run DPS warrior with banners?

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WoD is now officially dead in WvW. As a warrior I have to risk my neck jumping into a zerg, stay with the enemy zerg (cause bubble chases me now) and I can't use any of my skills while I do it because i'll break the channel. If I get CC'd the channel is broken and I'm also probably dead. Whoever thought this was a good idea doesn't WvW much at all obviously.

It was already bad that the duration was halved, now WoD's purpose is to get the warrior killed too.

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@Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

@Susy.7529 said:I just hope they don't become like engi's turrets, where the recharge starts when they expire or they are picked up.

That's probably how they will function, is it how they do now? I don't use banners much.

Nope, current function is: you place the banner and it immediately starts its recharge time, so that if you have alacrity you can place another one right after the first expires.If they will work like turrets, recharge time won't start before they either expire or are picked up, so it means that there will invitably be a 80 sec (60 sec if picked up) window where there are no banners on the ground. If that's the case, it is a HUGE nerf to warriors in every PvE content!

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Anet: However, we do think that the warrior gives up a lot in order to use them, so we're increasing the bonus stat gains when warriors equip traits that modify banners.

in real world you still lose 55 stat increase of each banner you are using wtf is this logic? Keep the old stats (170) or increase banner effect of Inspiring Battle Standard.

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