[Discussion/Suggestion] The state of "Sic 'Em!" in PvP and WvW.

Lottie.5370 · March 1, 2019

The current skill gives a 40% damage and movement boost for 8 seconds, with a 35 second recharge (28s when traited, also providing swiftness and regen). It also has 2000 range and applies revealed.

I don't really see a problem with this skill in PvE, it gives Soulbeast a huge damage boost that is needed for it to compete with other roles damage-wise.

In PvP and WvW however, I feel like it is too high of a damage buff. I can sit on top of a hill somewhere, see someone running about below: merge with pet, "Sic 'Em!" and Longbow 2 and that guy is dead. The whole thing is unblockable. I've been able to down squishier classes with just "Sic 'Em!" and one longbow auto, doing over 15k dmg. Because of the movement speed, it's also pretty hard to outrun.

Suggestion: Reduce the damage and movement buff in PvP and WvW to 20% or 30%. I think the duration/recharge is fine, however the range also seems a bit too high and should be scaled down to 1500 or 1200.

How do you guys feel about this skill at the moment? Do you find the revealed mechanic useful?

I don't think it's the biggest problem with Ranger, but I don't think it's particularly fun to play as, or against. I was surprised to see boonbeast nerfs in the patch and having this staying untouched.

Zexanima.7851 · March 1, 2019

@"Lottie.5370" said:The current skill gives a 40% damage and movement boost for 8 seconds, with a 35 second recharge (28s when traited, also providing swiftness and regen). It also has 2000 range and applies revealed.
I don't really see a problem with this skill in PvE, it gives Soulbeast a huge damage boost that is needed for it to compete with other roles damage-wise.
In PvP and WvW however, I feel like it is too high of a damage buff. I can sit on top of a hill somewhere, see someone running about below: merge with pet, "Sic 'Em!" and Longbow 2 and that guy is dead. The whole thing is unblockable. I've been able to down squishier classes with just "Sic 'Em!" and one longbow auto, doing over 15k dmg. Because of the movement speed, it's also pretty hard to outrun.
Suggestion: Reduce the damage and movement buff in PvP and WvW to 20% or 30%. I think the duration/recharge is fine, however the range also seems a bit too high and should be scaled down to 1500 or 1200.
How do you guys feel about this skill at the moment? Do you find the revealed mechanic useful?
I don't think it's the biggest problem with Ranger, but I don't think it's particularly fun to play as, or against. I was surprised to see boonbeast nerfs in the patch and having this staying untouched.

I don't think it's really a problem, but this is coming from someone who's not played WvW for a couple months. You have to consider things in tandem with what other classes can do. First off rangers are not really useful in zergs so that pushes them to roamers. Other roamers, lets say deadeye, can do something similar bursting you from stealth. Warrior, another good roaming class, will most likely have defy pain slotted and survive your burst and chase your kitten down.

True, it seems over powered when you catch a squishy wandering out in the middle of no where and snipe them but then again that player probably shouldn't have been positioned where they were in a glass squishy build. It's more their fault than the ranger's builds fault. If boonbeast and sic 'em sniper both get nerfed to be in a 'reasonable' state ranger wouldn't stand a chance against other 'unreasonable' classes and have no place in WvW/PvP at all. (i put those words in quotes because where things stand in terms of power/reason is only relative to how powerful/reasonable other professions are)

Lottie.5370 · March 1, 2019

@Zexanima.7851 said:
I don't think it's really a problem, but this is coming from someone who's not played WvW for a couple months. You have to consider things in tandem with what other classes can do. First off rangers are not really useful in zergs so that pushes them to roamers. Other roamers, lets say deadeye, can do something similar bursting you from stealth. Warrior, another good roaming class, will most likely have defy pain slotted and survive your burst and chase your kitten down.

I think this is a separate issue and because of the kit, and not really related to Sic Em.

True, it seems over powered when you catch a squishy wandering out in the middle of no where and snipe them but then again that player probably shouldn't have been positioned where they were in a glass squishy build. It's more their fault than the ranger's builds fault. If boonbeast and sic 'em sniper both get nerfed to be in a 'reasonable' state ranger wouldn't stand a chance against other 'unreasonable' classes and have no place in WvW/PvP at all. (i put those words in quotes because where things stand in terms of power/reason is only relative to how powerful/reasonable other professions are)

I think the build would still be viable with a slight nerf to the damage %, it doesn't take catching someone unaware to kill them. Ranger also has a lot of mobility when using Greatsword, and has CC and Stealth on the Longbow. It also has a decent amount of defensive options whilst maintaining the damage.

Zexanima.7851 · March 1, 2019

@Lottie.5370 said:
@Zexanima.7851 said:
I don't think it's really a problem, but this is coming from someone who's not played WvW for a couple months. You have to consider things in tandem with what other classes can do. First off rangers are not really useful in zergs so that pushes them to roamers. Other roamers, lets say deadeye, can do something similar bursting you from stealth. Warrior, another good roaming class, will most likely have defy pain slotted and survive your burst and chase your kitten down.

I think this is a separate issue and because of the kit, and not really related to Sic Em.

True, it seems over powered when you catch a squishy wandering out in the middle of no where and snipe them but then again that player probably shouldn't have been positioned where they were in a glass squishy build. It's more their fault than the ranger's builds fault. If boonbeast and sic 'em sniper both get nerfed to be in a 'reasonable' state ranger wouldn't stand a chance against other 'unreasonable' classes and have no place in WvW/PvP at all. (i put those words in quotes because where things stand in terms of power/reason is only relative to how powerful/reasonable other professions are)

I think the build would still be viable with a slight nerf to the damage %, it doesn't take catching someone unaware to kill them. Ranger also has a lot of mobility when using Greatsword, and has CC and Stealth on the Longbow. It also has a decent amount of defensive options whilst maintaining the damage.

I don't really think it will make a difference though. If someone was going to die to Sic 'Em at 40% damage that same player is probably still going to die even if it only did 20%, it might just take a few seconds longer to get the job done. At best it might make it harder for new rangers. I think it's a matter of game sense and awareness. You should know it's a possibility you could get sniped from 1500 range (or from stealth, or charged by an invincible juggernaut) and tailor your build accordingly.

TL;DRI think Sic 'em is fine where it is but I'm also fine with a nerf because I don't think it would make that much of a difference. It's more of a l2p issue for the people dying to it in my opinion

Zyreva.1078 · March 2, 2019

Sic'Em basically turns everything a soulbeast does into burst for 10s, even more so when paired with OWP, which means to counter it you need to be invulnerable for the whole duration, and can't even rely on blocks, reflects or stealth for the most part. Combined with the overall strong package of ranger/sb, it is far from balanced and certainly not necessary in order to kill other players. If players wouldn't waste their skills so often it would be a guaranteed kill against almost anything. Luckily most rangers in WvW are terrible at playing this game, which is the only thing that makes it somewhat bareable.

Revolution.5409 · March 2, 2019

From my point of view no, it is not OP, many classes can one-shot players with low armor, DE, Power Mirage, Revenant for example and do not require sickem.

Only main rangers require nerfs for their profession. ☺

Safandula.8723 · March 2, 2019

sic'em would be fine with 15% dmg modificator

Eleazar.9478 · March 2, 2019

The issue is the 4 second unblockable ( and the ability to get 3k power easy)

beatthedown.2651 · March 2, 2019

If you get farmed by this build, you are doing something wrong. Especially since the tanky boonbeast variant is way stronger. So many low skill players complaining about oneshots, it's not even funny anymore.

Just play a decent, more tankier build with invulns, because whatever you guys are playing, it does not fit your skill level. And there is nothing wrong with that, not everybody needs play a high risk - high reward build.

EnderzShadow.2506 · March 2, 2019

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:Sic'Em basically turns everything a soulbeast does into burst for 10s, even more so when paired with OWP, which means to counter it you need to be invulnerable for the whole duration, and can't even rely on blocks, reflects or stealth for the most part. Combined with the overall strong package of ranger/sb, it is far from balanced and certainly not necessary in order to kill other players. If players wouldn't waste their skills so often it would be a guaranteed kill against almost anything. Luckily most rangers in WvW are terrible at playing this game, which is the only thing that makes it somewhat bareable.

Unblockable doesn't last a full 10 seconds.Reflects still ReflectStealth- Cant hit what you cant seeEvades/Dodges still workInvulnsLine of sight

Crystal Paladin.3871 · March 2, 2019

@"Lottie.5370" said:The current skill gives a 40% damage and movement boost for 8 seconds, with a 35 second recharge (28s when traited, also providing swiftness and regen). It also has 2000 range and applies revealed.

Idk if the tooltip is right about the 40% dmg... Will check it out today compare it with and without sicem. Coz, I couldn't find that much of a difference while using it TBH.

The whole thing is unblockable.

I'm confused here... Did u try it? Or it's just the word "sicem" is a bit overwhelming/misleading/exaggerating? Or the skill has a bug?

Anyway, I won't equip sicem in PVP unless there's a thief/Daredevil in the opposite team to trap them with "revealed". If that's a DE, then I'd think twice about equipping it coz they would kick the whole skill slot to the trashcan with a simple shadow meld and twice

oOStaticOo.9467 · March 2, 2019

I'm complaining about the skill because I have played this build. A lot. Sure, it's high risk, high reward, but what's rewarding about being able to kill a guy with one skill? Lowering the damage would make it harder to play, you might actually have to think about where you're standing and use a couple of extra skills, it's not going to kill the kitten class.
Ask Thieves. They love to kill people with one skill.

Leave Sic'em alone. It's fine. Ranger is finally in a decent spot in regards to being somewhat useful in WvW. I, for one, do not want to go back to the constant harassment of being told to play a different class when I enter WvW. Although that hasn't fully stopped if we are being completely honest. Ranger gets the most hate in WvW. Let's show them some more love and make them more viable in WvW, not less.

Lottie.5370 · March 2, 2019

Then make them viable in zergs, no one is playing this build in a zerg and it's part of the reason people hate rangers in them xD

oOStaticOo.9467 · March 2, 2019

@Lottie.5370 said:Then make them viable in zergs, no one is playing this build in a zerg and it's part of the reason people hate rangers in them xD

Actually people are playing them in zergs. Only they aren't in zergs. They are clouding on the skirts of zergs. The reason they are not in a squad is because they can do what they need to do by themselves and do not need the benefit of all the boons that the zerg itself needs. Druid needs to be reworked to be included in zergs and benefit in squads. I know plenty of commanders that want Soulbeasts to follow them around and even instruct them to focus their ranged attacks on certain enemies or to take out siege that other players cannot reach, except for Ele's with Meteor Shower.

EnderzShadow.2506 · March 2, 2019

@Lottie.5370 said:
@"Zexanima.7851" said:
I don't think it's really a problem, but this is coming from someone who's not played WvW for a couple months. You have to consider things in tandem with what other classes can do. First off rangers are not really useful in zergs so that pushes them to roamers. Other roamers, lets say deadeye, can do something similar bursting you from stealth. Warrior, another good roaming class, will most likely have defy pain slotted and survive your burst and chase your kitten down.

I think this is a separate issue and because of the kit, and not really related to Sic Em.

True, it seems over powered when you catch a squishy wandering out in the middle of no where and snipe them but then again that player probably shouldn't have been positioned where they were in a glass squishy build. It's more their fault than the ranger's builds fault. If boonbeast and sic 'em sniper both get nerfed to be in a 'reasonable' state ranger wouldn't stand a chance against other 'unreasonable' classes and have no place in WvW/PvP at all. (i put those words in quotes because where things stand in terms of power/reason is only relative to how powerful/reasonable other professions are)

I think the build would still be viable with a slight nerf to the damage %, it doesn't take catching someone unaware to kill them. Ranger also has a lot of mobility when using Greatsword, and has CC and Stealth on the Longbow. It also has a decent amount of defensive options whilst maintaining the damage.

It's not a separate issue. Can you explain to me how it is a separate issue?Rangers that use Sicem do not live in a bubble all alone.Rangers skill set will compete and be compared to other classes that can do similar things.

Why would Ranger need a 'slight nerf' to sic'em?

Let's look at a few classes that can do what Rangers doMesmers, Warriors and Revenants can all chase a player down

Mesmers have DMG, Mobility, stealth and defensive options.

Warriors have mobility, dmg and defensive options

Revenant doesn't need the greatest defensive options and they can easily chaseany one down and finish them with very strong power based dmg.

So that I could understand your perspective, I looked at what class you play andit seemed from your posts, your choice of class is druid. Correct me if I am wrong.Druid was a favorite of mine too, for quite some time.

Cute looking toon.

I personally had many fights on my druid vs a friend who played a GS/LB Soulbeast.And although I had a menders druid and could do well vs most classes, that Soulbeastwould wreck me.

ps-This post is not rude.It is not meant to attack another member or single out a player for ridicule.I am not accusing anyone of inappropriate behavior.

DeceiverX.8361 · March 2, 2019

I said it before and got lots of hate thrown at me.I'll say it again because I don't really care:Should be reworked such that the target takes 10% more damage while under the effects of Sic 'Em.

Buffs PvE where it'd immediately be one of the best abilities in the game for group damage, and it hard nerfs it in the competitive modes because 10-15k autoattacks is overpowered as hell.

Kolisch.4691 · March 3, 2019

Sick em should just be made a finishing move. A cat with red eyes comes out and kills the other guy.

XenoSpyro.1780 · March 3, 2019

@"Lottie.5370" said:I think this is a separate issue

Agreed. Just get rid of "Signet of Might but its for Rangers". Problem solved.

anduriell.6280 · March 4, 2019

Sic'em is not an issue in wvw.

EnderzShadow.2506 · March 5, 2019

@DeceiverX.8361 said:I said it before and got lots of hate thrown at me.I'll say it again because I don't really care:Should be reworked such that the target takes 10% more damage while under the effects of Sic 'Em.
Buffs PvE where it'd immediately be one of the best abilities in the game for group damage, and it hard nerfs it in the competitive modes because 10-15k autoattacks is overpowered as hell.

Are you saying you can get 10-15k auto attacks in PvP?

For WvW I wanted to test some claims people have made.So, I made a fully ascended geared Soulbeast with every stat bonus you could possiblyget, including food, trying different traits, changing out sigles/runes (for highest crits)while using Sicem and Remorseless procs.I ran tests and the highest hit I got with the Longbow Auto was 9k(thats with Sicem and the remorseless proc)And to be clear, it's virutally impossible to get 2 back to back shots like that.I was never able to get anything close to 11-15kThe most reproducible crit with longbow was in the 6-7k Range.

Theory crafting doesn't count.Go spend the coinPost what you find.

DeceiverX.8361 · March 5, 2019

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:
@DeceiverX.8361 said:I said it before and got lots of hate thrown at me.I'll say it again because I don't really care:Should be reworked such that the target takes 10% more damage while under the effects of Sic 'Em.
Buffs PvE where it'd immediately be one of the best abilities in the game for group damage, and it hard nerfs it in the competitive modes because 10-15k autoattacks is overpowered as hell.

Are you saying you can get 10-15k auto attacks in PvP?

For WvW I wanted to test some claims people have made.So, I made a fully ascended geared Soulbeast with every stat bonus you could possiblyget, including food, trying different traits, changing out sigles/runes (for highest crits)while using Sicem and Remorseless procs.I ran tests and the highest hit I got with the Longbow Auto was 9k(thats with Sicem and the remorseless proc)And to be clear, it's virutally impossible to get 2 back to back shots like that.I was never able to get anything close to 11-15kThe most reproducible crit with longbow was in the 6-7k Range.

Theory crafting doesn't count.Go spend the coinPost what you find.

In WvW yes. In PvP, no for obvious reasons. But the sPvP damage is still overdone. 10% to all incoming is still damned strong in PvP for coordinated bursts, anyways considering that's 10% amped damage for everyone. And I'm not the only one asking for more team play who thinks current fire-and-forget on every class is stupid.

As far as 10-15k autos go, I have. I literally only play soulbeast now when I play. 12k is my max personally., but that's in exotic armor. Similarly, have hit 30k+ rapid fires pretty frequently.

I theorycrafted 18k max potential AA's but those circumstances never happen so even I don't count them.

There have been other posters who have posted plenty of screenshots of 12-15k.

Odds are your build isn't optimizing for damage at all. If you have anything less than 4k power you're doing it wrong. A spec'ed out build with longbow 3->4->1 should be stacking a 3.75x modifier. which takes only a 3k base crit to reach 10k, which is nothing.

Just because you couldn't do it doesn't mean nobody else has or can when there are tons of examples of people having done so previously.

Simonoly.4352 · March 6, 2019

I usually throw in Quickening Zephyr to quickly mow people down with 22K Rapid Fires. And yes, it is far too much damage but, this is a Soulbeast issue. Sic 'Em! is of course no real issue on base Ranger or Druid.

I agree that the Soulbeast version of Sic 'Em should provide a lowered damage buff.

Acyk.9671 · March 6, 2019

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

EnderzShadow.2506 · March 6, 2019

@DeceiverX.8361 said:
@EnderzShadow.2506 said:
@DeceiverX.8361 said:I said it before and got lots of hate thrown at me.I'll say it again because I don't really care:Should be reworked such that the target takes 10% more damage while under the effects of Sic 'Em.
Buffs PvE where it'd immediately be one of the best abilities in the game for group damage, and it hard nerfs it in the competitive modes because 10-15k autoattacks is overpowered as hell.