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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Case in point:
  • remember one, any will do, significant moment which you experienced while running LFR or LFG. Besides maybe seeing content for the first time.
  • now remember any significant moment which you experienced while making your own group or overcoming some other type of challenge

I guarantee you, those experiences will be vastly different.Fun fact (not really all that funny, actually). The "significant moments" i can remember from those old time raiding? They are almost uniformly
bad
memories. Things i'd rather
not
remember. In fact, it's due to those memories why i was so dead set against raids in GW2.Yes, i'm sure i had a lot of good moments as well (or i would have quit raiding much sooner). The truth is, though, i don't really remember those all that well. The bad things eventually overwhelmed the good ones.

So don't blame me for thinking your argument is not as good as you think it is.

@"Cyninja.2954" said:To lazy to look it up, there is literally a Blizzard developer post talking about how they regret implementing LFR on exactly these notes.

EDIT: strike that, google helped:

I have a lot of regrets about Raid Finder for WoW. I am sure I worked on features that were much, much worse, but that's the first one that came to mind.To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven't played WoW in a few years, so it's entirely possible they have solved the problem by now.
  • Ghostcrawler, lead systems designer on World of Warcraft for nearly six yearsNotice, that he wasn't really speaking here against LFR idea. Only against that specific implementation. Notice, that his argument against it is highly subjective and emotional, not rational. He never actually said it was bad for the game - he just didn't like it. Notice also, that when he said that, he wasn't a WoW dev anymore (and that Blizzard apparently disagreed with him, because LFR remained).

Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

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@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

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@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?

Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now,

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@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

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@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards as well. One person advocated that all in game rewards specifically Legendary Armor as their example and skins should be available through a reward track you gain credit for no matter what you do in game, just as long as you're playing you make progress on your reward track.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards as well. One person advocated that all in game rewards specifically Legendary Armor as their example and skins should be available through a reward track you gain credit for no matter what you do in game, just as long as you're playing you make progress on your reward track.

I'm bit of oldschool rpg player. I believe gear should be farmed, I believe reward should be equal to efforts etc.My favorite setup for dungeons/raid was in a Chinese mmorpg, regrettably highly p2w one.But game designers took anything good that one could have in rpg.

each dudgeon / raid had 3 difficulty tier.1 star was easy mod, in right gear facetank, beauty was that a player could not have the right gear by the time they had to do 1 star.2 starts was training, that would drop a bit of mats for gear and a tiny chance for a peace of gear.3 stars was the place you go and test yourself, for more mats and slightly higher chances of gear.On top of that 3 stars had a chance to drop an item that will open ultimate challenge mod, where mats that drop weren't bound.If party was struggling on 3 starts lets say second boss, they could drop difficulty. meaning practice more on 2 stars and get back next week to try to beat it again.Once you clear 3 star instance, you get exclusive rights to enter 1 or 2 starts in mentor mod (sidekicking) where you could help guildies, friends, randoms that struggle but no loot for you. In return you would get bit of currency to buy some(juts some) mats for BiS.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards as well. One person advocated that all in game rewards specifically Legendary Armor as their example and skins should be available through a reward track you gain credit for no matter what you do in game, just as long as you're playing you make progress on your reward track.

Woah now, “all the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards”? Hold up friend, I have never stated that. You are using absolutes, which is dangerous. I have personally said that the Legendary Armor component should stay with the normal mode. Things like mag shards, minis and maybe the ascended chest could be used as rewards for easy mode.

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People talking about LFR on wow forget why it was introduced?

A large amount of resources went into content that relatively few people used

That means the accountants would have wanted less resources spent on raids

The side benefits of lfr are they can incorporate story into raids now. Rewards should be less for easy mode. of course

So, those who want things to stay as they are... thats fine! but understand thst the most likely result is little resources being put into them going forward.

If i was an elite raider id want anything that encourages more participation as i would know that is my best chance of getting more raids

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?Notice also, that it's not something inherently tied to easy mode. FFXIV for example doesn't seem to have the same problem. Even if story/hard mode fights are generally really easy compared to extremes.

Not sure that's an exaggeration. At least not a big one.

I can't recall a single LFR experience where I thought the content was enjoyable past getting loot in WoW. The only thing ever remotely fun was chatting with friends on the side.

I'm genuinely interested though, could people tell me if the actual experience of running the LFR is enjoyable to them? When trying to ignore the loot. That is, if you thought about how the LFR experience was, and you subtracted the loot, would you keep running them weekly? What about reduced loot?

I have played a game that had easy,modes and something like lfr. Yeah you Q you don't care to talk to people, you just go there for daily and loot. You go to ahrd mode only with people you know that won't cause problem to the run. You take friends and guildies to easy mod for training runs.I don't see how this 2 easy mode and lfr are connected.But going to run with friends guildies no matter what mod wasn't excluded, especially if you were in a good guild that with good people.This start to be even more fun when they added guild missions to raids/dungeons.

Easy Mode and LFR are connected, because in order to allow maximum success for LFR mode content, difficulty needs to be kept in check. That obviously does not mean every easy mode has to be via LFR and as such asking about LFR in a topic about easy mode raids can be misleading, true.

My question is directly aimed at people who enjoy LFR. I'm fine with people telling me they enjoy it, but I want every one to dig deep and honestly analyze for them selves:do they enjoy the LFR, or do they enjoy the perks in form of easy loot for example?

One of both is impossible to replicate in GW2 due to how the reward structure is designed in this game (no progressive loot system which allows for disposable gear/loot).

That's beside the point that LFR for raids in this game would be near impossible to design given the specific classes required and shifting balance patches on roles. LFG would work for content such as dungeons and maybe low rank fractals.

It isn't that difficult to make Q per roles really. Might be some issues with people mentality 'i want druid not firebrand'.

It is when different bosses have different setups and when the performance difference between roles is this huge.

Try giving alacrity or quickness on a warrior, or heal with a thief or mesmer. That's only this balance cycle btw. Not even mentioning things like hand kiting.

I understand but easy mode won't be so dependent on meta

True, in which case it is useless for practice. So it boils down to: is it worth to have easy mode so people can see the zones and boss models?

I beg to differ, easy mods should not be facetanking, just mech should be bit forgiving. Just a bit but enough to punish for facetanking.That is the meaning of easy mod, to teach. In case of GW2 closes analogue would be T3s.yes a party of exp players can facetank alot in t3s but new players wipe there for same thing.

You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards as well. One person advocated that all in game rewards specifically Legendary Armor as their example and skins should be available through a reward track you gain credit for no matter what you do in game, just as long as you're playing you make progress on your reward track.

Woah now, “all the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challenge so everyone can do it with 100% of the rewards”? Hold up friend, I have never stated that. You are using absolutes, which is dangerous. I have personally said that the Legendary Armor component should stay with the normal mode. Things like mag shards, minis and maybe the ascended chest could be used as rewards for easy mode.

Astralporing was specifically the person with the legendary armor PvE reward track idea.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:You're the only person in this thread advocating such a thing. All the other easy mode advocates want it to present 0 challengeThat's factually not true, and is a gross misrepresentation of easy mode supporters' suggestions. Yes, there are people that ask for that, but not only they are not all the voices, but aren't even in the majority.Don't do that. The only thing it does is suggest you simply don't have any serious arguments against the real (as opposed to fictional) suggestions of other posters you argue with.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:Astralporing was specifically the person with the legendary armor PvE reward track idea....are you sure about that? Because i don't remember ever coming up with an idea like that. If i remember right, the idea was Ohoni's.And i definitely never was for easy mode raids having zero difficulty. I'm painfully aware that's not even realistically possible considering how low skill of some people can get.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Astralporing was specifically the person with the legendary armor PvE reward track idea....are you sure about that? Because i don't remember ever coming up with an idea like that. If i remember right, the idea was Ohoni's.And i definitely never was for easy mode raids having zero difficulty. I'm painfully aware that's not even realistically possible considering how low skill of some people can get.

Maybe? I recall they had some kind of thief avatar.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?

Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now,

Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks, while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?

Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now,

Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks,
while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups
. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

.

while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Daybreak

Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and Istan, the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?

Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now,

Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks,
while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups
. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

.

while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and
Istan
,
the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added
and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

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@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?

Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now,

Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks,
while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups
. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

.

while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and
Istan
,
the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added
and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?

Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now,

Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks,
while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups
. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

.

while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and
Istan
,
the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added
and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

What was the completion rate on the snowman raid? 95% is you had a squad of 10 people?

I saw Istan fail more often in the first week.

The main difference is: raid content and difficult fractals require up-front time investment. While world events you can simply copy what other people do.

If raids are made easy enough, they would play out just like open world content on farm.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@phs.6089 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Yeah, the fact that LFR made raids a boring slog where mechanics are irrelevant and every boss feels the same and drained all the excitement of beating your raid boss for the first time and that making you feel like a powerful epic hero of legend. Which has a heck of a lot to do with the cost of easy mode.Exagerrate much?

Not in the slightest. Faceroll raids, like LFR in WoW now,

Different audience, different time. That same group spent hundreds of hours burning that same fight into their memory 20 times a night for x weeks,
while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups
. There are different styles of game play, and not all of it is about beating the most difficult content, most players want group play without drama and dull rote pattern matching. See Wildstar.

.

while 95% of the playing player base got no content designed for large casual groups.

Hall of Chains is the same patch that gave us Living World Season 4 and
Istan
,
the most rewarding and replayed casual group content since Auric Basin was added
and is still very popular and well liked by players going by the thread Arenanet Thread where they talked about how there were plans to nerf it. And if you aren't a fan of zergs but also not a fan of raid difficulty fractals got Twilight of Oasis too.

It's a big difference in gaming experience between, open world, 5 man short fractals and 10 man raids.

Not at all. An easy mode raid that everyone can beat with no risk of failure plays no differently than something like Istan no matter how many player character models you flood the screen with.

Nah that would be waste, as waste as CMs in raids.

they could simply introduce food and utility like 'scarlets army' that makes 99 CM an easy mode, as you get 10% damage and 10% damage reduction. While failing mech leads to wipe.Easy mod has to teach and awaken desire, to beat it on hard.

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