ANet™: Split Danger Time! — Guild Wars 2 Forums

ANet™: Split Danger Time!

Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

You buff Moa in PvE but split it as to not affect PvP.

You nerf Danger Time in PvE but don't split it with PvP.

No meta build uses danger time, so nerfing it does nothing except solidify the Chronophantasma Bunker Mesmer meta. Not only that but Signet of Inspiration CD is being lowered to 20 seconds, further buffing this build.

Danger time is a bit stronger than competing traits (like Righteous Instincts), which it should be. Keeping a boon on yourself is much easier than keeping slow on the opponent in PvP because of cleanses. Danger Time has more counterplay than RI and Roiling Mists.

Split Danger Time!

// Yanim

Comments

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When was Moa buffed? This change only undoes part of an earlier nerf, that hardly constitutes a buff dude.

    In terms of breakbar dmg / second, in PvE Moa actually does LESS than it did prior to the change that nerfed its breakbar dmg to 600. Its still all around worse than it was before that change was made several patches ago. Ans as for splitting that change, well that's just a dumb split anyway.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    When was Moa buffed? This change only undoes part of an earlier nerf, that hardly constitutes a buff dude.

    In terms of breakbar dmg / second, in PvE Moa actually does LESS than it did prior to the change that nerfed its breakbar dmg to 600. Its still all around worse than it was before that change was made several patches ago. Ans as for splitting that change, well that's just a dumb split anyway.

    Thanks for the agreement.

    // Yanim

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is a trait being buffed on pve? Split it, for a pve only buff.
    Is a trait being nerfed on pve? Nerf it on pvp as well.
    I already lost count to the amout of stuff nerfed on mesmer because of pve.

    The degenerate

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Is a trait being buffed on pve? Split it, for a pve only buff.
    Is a trait being nerfed on pve? Nerf it on pvp as well.
    I already lost count to the amout of stuff nerfed on mesmer because of pve.

    Exactly!

    // Yanim

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I already lost count to the amout of stuff nerfed on mesmer because of pve.

    ? And where is the problem ? How I understand the main idea - is nerf mesmer in pve, but not in pvp.
    And this is right. Now on pt creation mesmer mostly exist. How I understand the requirement is make it less or eliminate from party at all and make setup heal rev + heal fb pug's accepted.

    Ofc soi nerf make it more dependable from well's, and with social awaykness on real boss put this small ring and wait tick nr 3 on 3/5 mostly impossible. But who care ?

    If u realy interested play as chrno - take this broken soi as gift and ask why?
    why well size not increased, and for exsapmle make it social awayknes useless at all.
    why, like most mechanic in gw2, that well ticks in not splited as: first tick buff, second - damage, 3 - debuff
    and more other 'why'

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I already lost count to the amout of stuff nerfed on mesmer because of pve.

    ? And where is the problem ? How I understand the main idea - is nerf mesmer in pve, but not in pvp.
    And this is right. Now on pt creation mesmer mostly exist. How I understand the requirement is make it less or eliminate from party at all and make setup heal rev + heal fb pug's accepted.

    Ofc soi nerf make it more dependable from well's, and with social awaykness on real boss put this small ring and wait tick nr 3 on 3/5 mostly impossible. But who care ?

    If u realy interested play as chrno - take this broken soi as gift and ask why?
    why well size not increased, and for exsapmle make it social awayknes useless at all.
    why, like most mechanic in gw2, that well ticks in not splited as: first tick buff, second - damage, 3 - debuff
    and more other 'why'

    What are you talking about?
    In case you misunderstood me all I was saying is nerf skills/traits that affect pve only on pve.
    I don't care if ANet nerfs raid stuff, in fact I would be happy if they straight-up deleted raids from the game, that game mode is constantly trashing mesmer in pvp.

    The degenerate

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I already lost count to the amout of stuff nerfed on mesmer because of pve.

    ? And where is the problem ? How I understand the main idea - is nerf mesmer in pve, but not in pvp.
    And this is right. Now on pt creation mesmer mostly exist. How I understand the requirement is make it less or eliminate from party at all and make setup heal rev + heal fb pug's accepted.

    Ofc soi nerf make it more dependable from well's, and with social awaykness on real boss put this small ring and wait tick nr 3 on 3/5 mostly impossible. But who care ?

    If u realy interested play as chrno - take this broken soi as gift and ask why?
    why well size not increased, and for exsapmle make it social awayknes useless at all.
    why, like most mechanic in gw2, that well ticks in not splited as: first tick buff, second - damage, 3 - debuff
    and more other 'why'

    What are you talking about?
    In case you misunderstood me all I was saying is nerf skills/traits that affect pve only on pve.
    I don't care if ANet nerfs raid stuff, in fact I would be happy if they straight-up deleted raids from the game, that game mode is constantly trashing mesmer in pvp.

    Nah, the spvp community does that all on its own.

    Mesmer and Mirage are the go-to poster children for people screaming nerfs. There is probably some blame for pve changes affecting pvp, but mesmer changes are certainly not one of them. Mesmer is THE class which people always complain about in pvp, it if wasn't for a minimum pve viability requirement, the class would have been delete from the game by now if we were to go by what the pvp community says.

    Don't put this one on raids.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I already lost count to the amout of stuff nerfed on mesmer because of pve.

    ? And where is the problem ? How I understand the main idea - is nerf mesmer in pve, but not in pvp.
    And this is right. Now on pt creation mesmer mostly exist. How I understand the requirement is make it less or eliminate from party at all and make setup heal rev + heal fb pug's accepted.

    Ofc soi nerf make it more dependable from well's, and with social awaykness on real boss put this small ring and wait tick nr 3 on 3/5 mostly impossible. But who care ?

    If u realy interested play as chrno - take this broken soi as gift and ask why?
    why well size not increased, and for exsapmle make it social awayknes useless at all.
    why, like most mechanic in gw2, that well ticks in not splited as: first tick buff, second - damage, 3 - debuff
    and more other 'why'

    What are you talking about?
    In case you misunderstood me all I was saying is nerf skills/traits that affect pve only on pve.
    I don't care if ANet nerfs raid stuff, in fact I would be happy if they straight-up deleted raids from the game, that game mode is constantly trashing mesmer in pvp.

    Nah, the spvp community does that all on its own.

    Mesmer and Mirage are the go-to poster children for people screaming nerfs. There is probably some blame for pve changes affecting pvp, but mesmer changes are certainly not one of them. Mesmer is THE class which people always complain about in pvp, it if wasn't for a minimum pve viability requirement, the class would have been delete from the game by now if we were to go by what the pvp community says.

    Don't put this one on raids.

    Alacrity, tides of time, danger time on top of my head.

    The degenerate

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @lare.5129 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I already lost count to the amout of stuff nerfed on mesmer because of pve.

    ? And where is the problem ? How I understand the main idea - is nerf mesmer in pve, but not in pvp.
    And this is right. Now on pt creation mesmer mostly exist. How I understand the requirement is make it less or eliminate from party at all and make setup heal rev + heal fb pug's accepted.

    Ofc soi nerf make it more dependable from well's, and with social awaykness on real boss put this small ring and wait tick nr 3 on 3/5 mostly impossible. But who care ?

    If u realy interested play as chrno - take this broken soi as gift and ask why?
    why well size not increased, and for exsapmle make it social awayknes useless at all.
    why, like most mechanic in gw2, that well ticks in not splited as: first tick buff, second - damage, 3 - debuff
    and more other 'why'

    What are you talking about?
    In case you misunderstood me all I was saying is nerf skills/traits that affect pve only on pve.
    I don't care if ANet nerfs raid stuff, in fact I would be happy if they straight-up deleted raids from the game, that game mode is constantly trashing mesmer in pvp.

    Nah, the spvp community does that all on its own.

    Mesmer and Mirage are the go-to poster children for people screaming nerfs. There is probably some blame for pve changes affecting pvp, but mesmer changes are certainly not one of them. Mesmer is THE class which people always complain about in pvp, it if wasn't for a minimum pve viability requirement, the class would have been delete from the game by now if we were to go by what the pvp community says.

    Don't put this one on raids.

    Alacrity, tides of time, danger time on top of my head.

    I'm not saying no changes came from pve which spilled over to pvp (but seriously, your examples are bit off. Alacrity would have been nerfed in any case for example, it was insanely overpowered on release). I'm saying if it was up to the spvp community the class would not exist. There is sufficient changes made to appease the spvp crowd which also affect pve, especially on mirage currently.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

    I disagree, bcs I believe that PvE was the reason for the Phantasm rework.

    // Yanim

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

    I disagree, bcs I believe that PvE was the reason for the Phantasm rework.

    The Phantasm rework was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta. If you want to blame that on PvE then be my guest since it made the class much better in both strength and mechanics, so PvP has even more to do to make up for all the damage it has done to the class.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    First raid was released on November 2017

    February 2018
    Alacrity change to boon and 25% instead of 33%
    Improved Alacrity nerf
    Tides of Time nerf
    All's Well That Ends Well nerf
    Phantasm Rework

    How is that related to pvp chronobunker?

    Generally ANet splits when nerfs are done in pvp, and generally stuff is buff on pve only.
    And while I understand the pve only buffs - I find hilarious that you need buffs on a game mode in which you can run around naked, traitless and carrying only a one-hand weapon and still do fine.

    The degenerate

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

    I disagree, bcs I believe that PvE was the reason for the Phantasm rework.

    The Phantasm rework was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    If you want to blame that on PvE then be my guest since it made the class much better in both strength and mechanics

    The opposite is true, the new mechanics are terrible and Mesmer has been more aids and more boring in PvP since then.

    // Yanim

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

    I disagree, bcs I believe that PvE was the reason for the Phantasm rework.

    The Phantasm rework was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    If you want to blame that on PvE then be my guest since it made the class much better in both strength and mechanics

    The opposite is true, the new mechanics are terrible and Mesmer has been more aids and more boring in PvP since then.

    I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong but most people don't share it. Myself included.

    Edit: You're also forgetting that phantasms were little more than shatter fodder against even a slightly competent opponent.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

    I disagree, bcs I believe that PvE was the reason for the Phantasm rework.

    The Phantasm rework was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    If you want to blame that on PvE then be my guest since it made the class much better in both strength and mechanics

    The opposite is true, the new mechanics are terrible and Mesmer has been more aids and more boring in PvP since then.

    I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong but most people don't share it. Myself included.

    Edit: You're also forgetting that phantasms were little more than shatter fodder against even a slightly competent opponent.

    I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.
    I already debated my opinion on other thread, don't know if it was with Quadox or someone else.
    With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.
    Moreoever, the phantasm conversion is slow, which makes shattering also slower.
    So both phantasms and shatters suffered a great blow with phantasm redesign, pvpwise.

    The degenerate

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

    I disagree, bcs I believe that PvE was the reason for the Phantasm rework.

    The Phantasm rework was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    If you want to blame that on PvE then be my guest since it made the class much better in both strength and mechanics

    The opposite is true, the new mechanics are terrible and Mesmer has been more aids and more boring in PvP since then.

    I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong but most people don't share it. Myself included.

    Edit: You're also forgetting that phantasms were little more than shatter fodder against even a slightly competent opponent.

    I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.
    I already debated my opinion on other thread, don't know if it was with Quadox or someone else.
    With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.
    Moreoever, the phantasm conversion is slow, which makes shattering also slower.
    So both phantasms and shatters suffered a great blow with phantasm redesign, pvpwise.

    Some phantasms couldn't hit a dolyak before the rework either. And I think most is appropriate considering people don't show up to praise, usually just to complain.

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    Wrong it was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.

    Not when most people liked the change.

    With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.

    You are confusing numbers with mechanics and even then only Staff Phantasm really got worse.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    Wrong it was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.

    Not when most people liked the change.

    With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.

    You are confusing numbers with mechanics and even then only Staff Phantasm really got worse.

    Just realise that I am talking about PvP and you seem to have no idea about it. I have not heard a single person who prefers any Mesmer meta post-rework to core shatter or condi chrono meta. The class worked perfectly fine back then (again, PvP). You cannot just turn around and say "they remembered to finish class after beta". You are just wrong.

    // Yanim

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

    I disagree, bcs I believe that PvE was the reason for the Phantasm rework.

    The Phantasm rework was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    If you want to blame that on PvE then be my guest since it made the class much better in both strength and mechanics

    The opposite is true, the new mechanics are terrible and Mesmer has been more aids and more boring in PvP since then.

    I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong but most people don't share it. Myself included.

    Edit: You're also forgetting that phantasms were little more than shatter fodder against even a slightly competent opponent.

    I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.
    I already debated my opinion on other thread, don't know if it was with Quadox or someone else.
    With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.
    Moreoever, the phantasm conversion is slow, which makes shattering also slower.
    So both phantasms and shatters suffered a great blow with phantasm redesign, pvpwise.

    Some phantasms couldn't hit a dolyak before the rework either. And I think most is appropriate considering people don't show up to praise, usually just to complain.

    So because of a lack of feedback, you assume that the default must be that "most people like it". Laughable. What you should assume is that most people don't care to compare before-after, or just adapt and move on because they don't have power to affect the devs anyway.

    // Yanim

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Alacrity

    They nerfed every single trait and every single possible alternative trait to kill the Chronobunker build for PvP soon after HoT, do you really think alacrity wouldn't have been touched if raids didn't exist?

    Also PvP whines just killed Mirage by once again giving it a worse dodge then not taking Mirage.

    Raids have a lot of work to do before they touch the damage PvP balance has done to this class.

    I disagree, bcs I believe that PvE was the reason for the Phantasm rework.

    The Phantasm rework was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    If you want to blame that on PvE then be my guest since it made the class much better in both strength and mechanics

    The opposite is true, the new mechanics are terrible and Mesmer has been more aids and more boring in PvP since then.

    I'm not going to say your opinion is wrong but most people don't share it. Myself included.

    Edit: You're also forgetting that phantasms were little more than shatter fodder against even a slightly competent opponent.

    They are just as shatter fodder now as then (with exceptions), but you don't have a choice but to wait for them. Anyway, I don't mind the reworks of the phantasm attacks so much, like torch and focus. Some are worse like swordsman. But we could have had those reworks and still kept the old phantasm mechanics, they are not one and the same.

    // Yanim

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, the only reason mesmer worked in spvp was due to portal and point control pre HoT. The class its self was insanely broken and unfinished. Pve wise, it was a quickness bot and nothing more. Yet people whined on the spvp and wvw boards cause clones hard.

    Then chronomancer was introduced and was one of the classes which defined the bunker meta in spvp. The nerfs to it were justified especially on things like alacrity even if thoes were likely more related to raids. Similar how almost all the portal nerfs are directly related to spvp.

    Now we have Mirage and ever since chronomancer the spvp boards have been a constant whine about mesmer in any form (and before because bad players can't deal with clones). You can pretend and blame pve all you want, spvp has its fair share to carry for mesmer changes and nerfs all along the way.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Yeah, the only reason mesmer worked in spvp was due to portal and point control pre HoT. The class its self was insanely broken and unfinished. Pve wise, it was a quickness bot and nothing more. Yet people whined on the spvp and wvw boards cause clones hard.

    Then chronomancer was introduced and was one of the classes which defined the bunker meta in spvp. The nerfs to it were justified especially on things like alacrity even if thoes were likely more related to raids. Similar how almost all the portal nerfs are directly related to spvp.

    Now we have Mirage and ever since chronomancer the spvp boards have been a constant whine about mesmer in any form (and before because bad players can't deal with clones). You can pretend and blame pve all you want, spvp has its fair share to carry for mesmer changes and nerfs all along the way.

    Sure thing, I disagree but let's talk about Danger Time now.

    // Yanim

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Swordsman, staff, focus - all those lost dps with the change, numbers not mechanics.

    As for DT, a split should've been made.

    The degenerate

  • Levetty.1279Levetty.1279 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    Wrong it was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.

    Not when most people liked the change.

    With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.

    You are confusing numbers with mechanics and even then only Staff Phantasm really got worse.

    Just realise that I am talking about PvP and you seem to have no idea about it. I have not heard a single person who prefers any Mesmer meta post-rework to core shatter or condi chrono meta. The class worked perfectly fine back then (again, PvP). You cannot just turn around and say "they remembered to finish class after beta". You are just wrong.

    Except as people are telling you the overwhelming response to the changes were positive. You don't get to troll and just declare people wrong because you don't like that they finally finished the class off. The one trick shatter builds still work just as well, they never kept phantasms up attacking a target because they were shattering and the fact that they can still kill proves that clone generation isn't a problem.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Swordsman, staff, focus - all those lost dps with the change, numbers not mechanics.

    As for DT, a split should've been made.

    Swordsman does slightly less damage against a moving foe and a lot more damage against a foe you manage to lock down, focus went weird but its a damage increase against single targets. They could easily change Staff and Focus phantasms without reverting the phantasms changes.

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    ^ What Levetty said.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    Wrong it was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.

    Not when most people liked the change.

    With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.

    You are confusing numbers with mechanics and even then only Staff Phantasm really got worse.

    Just realise that I am talking about PvP and you seem to have no idea about it. I have not heard a single person who prefers any Mesmer meta post-rework to core shatter or condi chrono meta. The class worked perfectly fine back then (again, PvP). You cannot just turn around and say "they remembered to finish class after beta". You are just wrong.

    Except as people are telling you the overwhelming response to the changes were positive. You don't get to troll and just declare people wrong because you don't like that they finally finished the class off. The one trick shatter builds still work just as well, they never kept phantasms up attacking a target because they were shattering and the fact that they can still kill proves that clone generation isn't a problem.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Swordsman, staff, focus - all those lost dps with the change, numbers not mechanics.

    As for DT, a split should've been made.

    Swordsman does slightly less damage against a moving foe and a lot more damage against a foe you manage to lock down, focus went weird but its a damage increase against single targets. They could easily change Staff and Focus phantasms without reverting the phantasms changes.

    Not true, swordsman was one of the hardest hitting phantasms and just the poke animation, faster damage than this one, focus with the right pull did the sameish damage as rangers whirling defense, again faster damage - more dps.
    And I'll mention again the conversion time, pre rework you could shatter right after the attack, heck since they counted as an illusion you could use stuff such as a traited jaunt (SD) to create a clone right of the bat, post rework is a mess, shattering became much slower.
    For pve purposes it's fine, for pvp it was not only a huge nerf, it was a source of visual clutter.
    If I had to chose only one thing to undone on mesmer - it surely would be the phantasm rework.

    The degenerate

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Levetty.1279 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Wrong, it was because of boring fire-and-forget PvE rotation, which was never a problem in PvP.

    Wrong it was Anet finally remembering that they never finished the class back in Beta.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    I know some people like the current phantasm design, but saying "most" is perhaps a stretch.

    Not when most people liked the change.

    With the current design, some phantasms lost a ton of damage, some can't even hit a moving dolyak and so on.

    You are confusing numbers with mechanics and even then only Staff Phantasm really got worse.

    Just realise that I am talking about PvP and you seem to have no idea about it. I have not heard a single person who prefers any Mesmer meta post-rework to core shatter or condi chrono meta. The class worked perfectly fine back then (again, PvP). You cannot just turn around and say "they remembered to finish class after beta". You are just wrong.

    Except as people are telling you

    As I said I am talking about PvP, and outside the Mesmer forums I don't think I've heard a single PvP Mesmer call the rework good. Some call it bad and some adapt and forget/ignore. But I know that the Mesmer forums is mostly PvE and players in gold or below (nothing wrong with that).

    the overwhelming response to the changes were positive.

    Don't know how you drew this conclusion but even if true, this is likely because any change feels refreshing and exiting at first. In fact, I was initially on the positive side as I said in my thread "Phantasm rework bad for PvP in hindsight?" over a year ago. Of course after years of slow development and lackluster balance patches one gets exited by reworks.

    You don't get to troll and just declare people wrong because you don't like that they finally finished the class off.

    Hypocrite. This is exactly what you are doing. And this has nothing to do with "finishing the class off" - no need to act willfully ignorant.

    The one trick shatter builds still work just as well, they never kept phantasms up attacking a target because they were shattering and the fact that they can still kill proves that clone generation isn't a problem.

    The problem is not that you can't keep a phantasm up forever anymore, but about speed of getting shatters off, about illusion management, about increased visual noise, about options. As we've talked about.

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Swordsman, staff, focus - all those lost dps with the change, numbers not mechanics.

    As for DT, a split should've been made.

    Swordsman does slightly less damage against a moving foe and a lot more damage against a foe you manage to lock down, focus went weird but its a damage increase against single targets. They could easily change Staff and Focus phantasms without reverting the phantasms changes.

    Sword is terrible, focus is better vs single target (esp) but lost the synergy with focus pull. I don't mind redesigned phantasms and it is unrelated to the mechanics rework but slow-attacking phantasms like staff and focus exacerbate the problems of the phantasm mechanics rework.

    // Yanim

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

    And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. If not, I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess. And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

    Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

    And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will never ever revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example). Here is an example of a complaint by another user.

    I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.

    No idea what that means.

    And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.

    Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

    // Yanim

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

    Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

    And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will never ever revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example). Here is an example of a complaint by another user.

    I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.

    No idea what that means.

    And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.

    Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

    And your response to 'most people' was your very anecdotal, "WELL IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THEY LIKE IT". I doubt much has changed.

    Aside from the multiple berserker attacks everything else you listed still fits in to 'maybe one attack and then shatter'. Don't gatekeep 'good Mesmers' behind your false concept. And less options only really applies to PvP and even then only if one subscribes to your perspective.

    I'm going to bow out of this one. There's not much point to it.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

    Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

    And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will never ever revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example). Here is an example of a complaint by another user.

    I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.

    No idea what that means.

    And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.

    Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

    And your response to 'most people' was your very anecdotal, "WELL IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THEY LIKE IT". I doubt much has changed.

    Well I think people have gotten used to it at this point certainly. You are right, this point leads nowhere.

    Aside from the multiple berserker attacks everything else you listed still fits in to 'maybe one attack and then shatter'.

    Simplifying all of that into "maybe one attack and then shatter" is akin to simplifying Guild Wars 2 combat into "wait for CDs and press buttons".

    Don't gatekeep 'good Mesmers' behind your false concept

    I didn't. I specifically said but for me this was a display of skill and awareness. And I've seen others lament that illusion management is "gone" for Mesmer. But I acknowledge that you don't care for it, for instance.

    And less options only really applies to PvP and even then only if one subscribes to your perspective.

    I have stated that I am only talking about PvP. I don't think less options only applies "if one subscribes to your perspective" because unless I am missing something the rework simply did close more options for Phantasms and shatters than it opened. However you can of course still have the opinion that the rework was a net positive, for example in QoL or in more fun PvE rotations and so on.

    I'm going to bow out of this one. There's not much point to it.

    Nor is there to anything, especially anything on this forum. But we do it anyway! :)

    // Yanim

  • EpicTurtle.8571EpicTurtle.8571 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

    Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

    And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will never ever revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example). Here is an example of a complaint by another user.

    I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.

    No idea what that means.

    And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.

    Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

    And your response to 'most people' was your very anecdotal, "WELL IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THEY LIKE IT". I doubt much has changed.

    Well I think people have gotten used to it at this point certainly. You are right, this point leads nowhere.

    Aside from the multiple berserker attacks everything else you listed still fits in to 'maybe one attack and then shatter'.

    Simplifying all of that into "maybe one attack and then shatter" is akin to simplifying Guild Wars 2 combat into "wait for CDs and press buttons".

    Don't gatekeep 'good Mesmers' behind your false concept

    I didn't. I specifically said but for me this was a display of skill and awareness. And I've seen others lament that illusion management is "gone" for Mesmer. But I acknowledge that you don't care for it, for instance.

    And less options only really applies to PvP and even then only if one subscribes to your perspective.

    I have stated that I am only talking about PvP. I don't think less options only applies "if one subscribes to your perspective" because unless I am missing something the rework simply did close more options for Phantasms and shatters than it opened. However you can of course still have the opinion that the rework was a net positive, for example in QoL or in more fun PvE rotations and so on.

    I'm going to bow out of this one. There's not much point to it.

    Nor is there to anything, especially anything on this forum. But we do it anyway! :)

    Fair enough, apologies if I came off arrogant or hostile.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @EpicTurtle.8571 said:
    It's not that hard to see that the overwhelming response to the phantasm rework was positive. In fact it's right here:
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30392/so-do-you-like-the-phantasm-rework/p1

    Rework was still fresh and exciting at that early point. Tiny sample size. Skewed to only Mesmer forum regulars (I didn't even vote there because I guess this was at the point when I had quit due to Mesmer being boring). Again, I am talking about PvP only (and above a certain level of experience / skill where the differences are even noticed).

    And seriously, if you really like rapid shattering, use clone generating traits and utilities, you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

    That is your opinion. Also, I know that they will never ever revert the phantasm rework but there are steps that can be taken to lessen the negative impact (rework/remove Chronophantasma for example). Here is an example of a complaint by another user.

    I don't know what to tell you, stop using suboptimal tools to achieve your goal I guess.

    No idea what that means.

    And 'illusion management' is a paltry phrase thrown about to make it seem like the pre-rework situation was somehow more complex then '3 phantasms and AA' and 'maybe one phantasm attack and shatter' in PvE and PvP respectively, it's not a real concept.

    Wrong. Off the top of my head: Waiting for multiple berzerker attacks for more dps was a real thing. Shattering phantasms before they finish their attack+aftercast was a real thing, for example for slow moving/attacking phantasms (especially on chrono with superspeed shatter trait), or for avoiding cleave (getting value), or for stunbreaking a CCd phantasm. Keeping track of illusions was a real thing (a con for some, but for me and others this was a display of skill and awareness on part of good Mesmers). I may have forgotten some in this list because it was so long ago. Some more in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33167/phantasm-rework-bad-for-pvp-in-hindsight which I guess you already read. But sure the rework is good if you consider not accidentally shattering phantasms as QoL and you want the profession to have less options and to "play itself".

    And your response to 'most people' was your very anecdotal, "WELL IVE NEVER HEARD ANYONE SAY THEY LIKE IT". I doubt much has changed.

    Well I think people have gotten used to it at this point certainly. You are right, this point leads nowhere.

    Aside from the multiple berserker attacks everything else you listed still fits in to 'maybe one attack and then shatter'.

    Simplifying all of that into "maybe one attack and then shatter" is akin to simplifying Guild Wars 2 combat into "wait for CDs and press buttons".

    Don't gatekeep 'good Mesmers' behind your false concept

    I didn't. I specifically said but for me this was a display of skill and awareness. And I've seen others lament that illusion management is "gone" for Mesmer. But I acknowledge that you don't care for it, for instance.

    And less options only really applies to PvP and even then only if one subscribes to your perspective.

    I have stated that I am only talking about PvP. I don't think less options only applies "if one subscribes to your perspective" because unless I am missing something the rework simply did close more options for Phantasms and shatters than it opened. However you can of course still have the opinion that the rework was a net positive, for example in QoL or in more fun PvE rotations and so on.

    I'm going to bow out of this one. There's not much point to it.

    Nor is there to anything, especially anything on this forum. But we do it anyway! :)

    Fair enough, apologies if I came off arrogant or hostile.

    Same

    // Yanim

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