Chrono+ druid vs Renebrand in fotm — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Chrono+ druid vs Renebrand in fotm

Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.
In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.
Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.
Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.
Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.
The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.
Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

make prepardness baseline plz

<1

Comments

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    Because you don't need harrier druid neither ; Berserker druid + runes of strenght. Because Chrono also earn some DPS because of Diviner gear. Because chrono (diviner or harrier inspiration) + PS war +3 DPS is still very effective. Because of pull, TP.... Because of range. Because of CC. Because that right people are used to. Because DH can take stab too.

    I was really happy that people have a look to Ren+FB; which exists long before SC or discretize suggest it, but it's an error to figure META comp because of golem without looking the new instabilities. The suggested meta is heal ren + power FB (because "higher DPS"), but actually the opposite (or diviner FB) offers more utilities, more ease, more "mechanic counter" more soulcleve uptime, and so better carry > More dps.

    It still need decantation and some adjustments. For now people don't know if they gear harrier or diviner or zerk or vipere, scholar or pack, RR or LL in ren spec ... if they play with PS war (and so rune of strengt and/or sigil or food)

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Because you don't need harrier druid neither ; Berserker druid + runes of strenght. Because Chrono also earn some DPS because of Diviner gear. Because chrono (diviner or harrier inspiration) + PS war +3 DPS is still very effective. Because of pull, TP.... Because of range. Because of CC. Because that right people are used to. Because DH can take stab too.

    I was really happy that people have a look to Ren+FB; which exists long before SC or discretize suggest it, but it's an error to figure META comp because of golem without looking the new instabilities. The suggested meta is heal ren + power FB (because "higher DPS"), but actually the opposite (or diviner FB) offers more utilities, more ease, more "mechanic counter" and so better carry > More dps.

    It still need decantation and some adjustments. For now people don't know if they gear harrier or diviner or zerk or vipere, scholar or pack ...

    Yea I agree, but 3 dps comp with chrono has much less sustain and worse boons than fb rev both in zerk and diviner. That's imo the problem, that I hope will be balanced

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    LFG are still filled with chrono+druid. This composition definitely does not need an improvement. Chronomencer is exellent if your party knows how to stack and druid has spirits which are one of the best utility skills in the game.

    I assume people are more accustomed to those two professions and already have geared characters. Not to mention that revenant is least played profession, which also hurts firebrand in return

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Because you don't need harrier druid neither ; Berserker druid + runes of strenght. Because Chrono also earn some DPS because of Diviner gear. Because chrono (diviner or harrier inspiration) + PS war +3 DPS is still very effective. Because of pull, TP.... Because of range. Because of CC. Because that right people are used to. Because DH can take stab too.

    I was really happy that people have a look to Ren+FB; which exists long before SC or discretize suggest it, but it's an error to figure META comp because of golem without looking the new instabilities. The suggested meta is heal ren + power FB (because "higher DPS"), but actually the opposite (or diviner FB) offers more utilities, more ease, more "mechanic counter" more soulcleve uptime, and so better carry > More dps.

    It still need decantation and some adjustments. For now people don't know if they gear harrier or diviner or zerk or vipere, scholar or pack, RR or LL in ren spec ... if they play with PS war (and so rune of strengt and/or sigil or food)

    This post makes me so angry. For one thing you are comparing what exactly? And then so much total nonsense. Higher kalla elite uptime? What? With most bosses phasing before you even run out of energy on first kalla elite? You know, 100% is cap. Berserker druid? Have you even TRIED that ever on golem? Put your pet passive and be surprised, you will barely even hit 9k. With pet thats 12k at the most. Non bursty 12k dmg. And you DO realize that you can use your tomes on power firebrand as well?

    Shenanigans with switching out utilities and traits after singularity pre-stack aside, a diviner chrono most 17k, again no burst, last I checked.

    So it comes down to numbers. 12k+17k -> 29k top dps from druid+chrono, with additional 4k from frost spirit. So you are at 33k.

    Power firebrand is on par with power bannerwarrior, though with higher burst. So roundabout 24k on longer phases, around 30k on short phases. Power renegade is at around 22k without any burst. Kalla elite adds around 1-2k per other player. That means you are at 50-60k from renebrand. Roughly a third more dmg.

    Now lets compare 1 healer comps, druid healer + diviner chrono -> 26k
    renegade healer + power firebrand -> 34-43k

    The only reason to keep on using druid+chrono is because you are used to. Period. Just shows you can run pretty much every comp because gw2 so easy.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019

    You are so angry because of +10K DPS for 2 supports ?? Wow, take holidays.
    Have you even >TRIED berserker druid to SAY it is 12K ? You're more arround 16-17k, because you may forget there were a lot of patchs after Hot Release, axe/sword/gs buffs etc. Have you even >TRIED 1 chrono 1 War comp ??
    The 30sec you win on a boss with ren-fb, chrono will double the time with portal to skip parts.
    I'm okai with FB+Ren, I love FB since Pof release and have 3 gears + a DH, but stuck *ss people "WE NEED TO KILL CHRONO META IT'S NOT OPTI" oh come on, please stop that it's really disturbing, and stupid. Why should it exists only one viable compo, and others comp is instant kick + black list ????? Praise Ren+FB, but don't bash Chrono on "-5k DPS" argument.

    Edit you're the guy who take a PS war with FB-REN in fractals and talk about optimisation ? pls don't talk about comp only on the DPS criteria without a look on fractals and instabiltities.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    You are so angry because of +10K DPS for 2 supports ?? Wow, take holidays.
    Have you even >TRIED berserker druid to SAY it is 12K ? You're more arround 16-17k, because you may forget there were a lot of patchs after Hot Release, axe/sword/gs buffs etc. Have you even >TRIED 1 chrono 1 War comp ??
    The 30sec you win on a boss with ren-fb, chrono will double the time with portal to skip parts.
    I'm okai with FB+Ren, I love FB since Pof release and have 3 gears + a DH, but stuck *ss people "WE NEED TO KILL CHRONO META IT'S NOT OPTI" oh come on, please stop that it's really disturbing, and stupid. Why should it exists only one viable compo, and others comp is instant kick + black list ????? Praise Ren+FB, but don't bash Chrono on "-5k DPS" argument.

    Edit you're the guy who take a PS war with FB-REN in fractals and talk about optimisation ? pls don't talk about comp only on the DPS criteria without a look on fractals and instabiltities.

    Actually vs new instabs, Renebrand is way better. Better prot, reduced received condi dmg, stability, heal from kalla elite, reflects. And kalla skill that interrupt every sec. It's op on trash mobs, they basicly doesn't attack. Chrono has skips, but rn, power chrono is in rly good spot in terms of dps AND the unused utility and elite slot, since mantra of pain and gravity well are rly small dps increase. While support chrono is forced to take woa wor soi and timewarp to upkeep 100%bd. Also Rene has much better cc than chrono.
    I don't know cuz I don't play druid, how much cc break it offers?

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    You are so angry because of +10K DPS for 2 supports ?? Wow, take holidays.
    Have you even >TRIED berserker druid to SAY it is 12K ? You're more arround 16-17k, because you may forget there were a lot of patchs after Hot Release, axe/sword/gs buffs etc. Have you even >TRIED 1 chrono 1 War comp ??
    The 30sec you win on a boss with ren-fb, chrono will double the time with portal to skip parts.
    I'm okai with FB+Ren, I love FB since Pof release and have 3 gears + a DH, but stuck *ss people "WE NEED TO KILL CHRONO META IT'S NOT OPTI" oh come on, please stop that it's really disturbing, and stupid. Why should it exists only one viable compo, and others comp is instant kick + black list ????? Praise Ren+FB, but don't bash Chrono on "-5k DPS" argument.

    Edit you're the guy who take a PS war with FB-REN in fractals and talk about optimisation ? pls don't talk about comp only on the DPS criteria without a look on fractals and instabiltities.

    Yes, I tried berserker druid, quite recently in fact. So yes, I know EXACTLY how much dps it does at the most on golem. So you can stop pulling random numbers out of your kitten.

    This thread is about DRUID + chrono, so you are offtopic with your 3 dps comp anyway.

    And what the kitten are you on about with PS? WHICHEVER trait would you INSTEAD bring on a power bannerwarrior? Synergy for 20 more dps? But only if theres a firefield to combo? Or... shout trait for that onetime healshout you are using as opener - if at all? Stop trying to defend your stupid idiotic traitline choices by trying to mock my very logical suggestion that all bannerwarriors should just stop being kitten idiots and just bring PS trait instead of renegades kitten over their alacrity uptime.
    And if theres still a problem with might - shouldnt be but there sometimes is... then bannerwarrior can just use cheap dumpling food without much dps loss, after all in groups that have might problems you dont phase fast enough for your max dps anyway. So what the kitten are you on about there?

    Please start to use your brain before posting.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    I'm quite interested how you rotate with druid, because I got 10K IN INSTANCE, and because if you look benchmark on YT and website berserker druid was 17k last year, I didn't see nerf since, so I'm concerned. I confess with strength runes you can lose 2k, but 12k ? May be swap weapons ?

    And what the kitten are you on about with PS? WHICHEVER trait would you INSTEAD bring on a power bannerwarrior? Synergy for 20 more dps? But only if theres a firefield to combo? Or... shout trait for that onetime healshout you are using as opener - if at all? Stop trying to defend your stupid idiotic traitline choices by trying to mock my very logical suggestion that all bannerwarriors should just stop being kitten idiots and just bring PS trait instead of renegades kitten over their alacrity uptime.

    That funny because all your posts on others topics were about berserker FB + diviner Ren, but you are scared about alacrity and not taking RR in a static group, and your "logical suggestion" to say to others who bring 25 mights and perma uptime alacrity on boss is that they are "wrong", but the clumsy loop of quickness of zerk FB ... don't worry it's okai!?? I'm a bit confused in that choice of priorities. Very low quickness margin ... convenient for CC phase at Artsariiv or where you kite a lot because of instabilities or aoe.
    And why not take more boon duration, equip mantra of liberation and Weighty term ? No need when you can lose seconds to dodge, jump, turn back etc, and don't forget your support lose 3k DPS on golem. What a logical suggestion.
    You made a compo for a static group, and that's great, but bash chrono+druid because you want to impose your choice to others, or bashing Diviner/Harrier/Vipere FB because of an idiot golem, no matter how you can carry the whole group in all fractals ... it makes me so angry.
    And all players don't have static, ( and knowledge, and skill...) and don't have patience to make 2 or 3 gears AND wait for a Ren or a FB to join with the ancillary gear. They want quickness, they want fury, they want aegis, they want to be babysitted when there are conditions, projectiles, daze/stun, they don't want to die because of little mistakes or clumsy coordination, they really don't care if you carry them to heaven but make 8k instead of 11k.
    Edit: chrono/druid have utilities and ease that FB and ren don't, and inversely. I don't see why there will not be place for both compo and we should absolutely ERASE from the game one of them.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I'm quite interested how you rotate with druid, because I got 10K IN INSTANCE, and because if you look benchmark on YT and website berserker druid was 17k last year, I didn't see nerf since, so I'm concerned. I confess with strength runes you can lose 2k, but 12k ? May be swap weapons ?

    And what the kitten are you on about with PS? WHICHEVER trait would you INSTEAD bring on a power bannerwarrior? Synergy for 20 more dps? But only if theres a firefield to combo? Or... shout trait for that onetime healshout you are using as opener - if at all? Stop trying to defend your stupid idiotic traitline choices by trying to mock my very logical suggestion that all bannerwarriors should just stop being kitten idiots and just bring PS trait instead of renegades kitten over their alacrity uptime.

    That funny because all your posts on others topics were about berserker FB + diviner Ren, but you are scared about alacrity and not taking RR in a static group, and your "logical suggestion" to say to others who bring 25 mights and perma uptime alacrity on boss is that they are "wrong", but the clumsy loop of quickness of zerk FB ... don't worry it's okai!?? I'm a bit confused in that choice of priorities. Very low quickness margin ... convenient for CC phase at Artsariiv or where you kite a lot because of instabilities or aoe.
    And why not take more boon duration, equip mantra of liberation and Weighty term ? No need when you can lose seconds to dodge, jump, turn back etc, and don't forget your support lose 3k DPS on golem. What a logical suggestion.
    You made a compo for a static group, and that's great, but bash chrono+druid because you want to impose your choice to others, or bashing Diviner/Harrier/Vipere FB because of an idiot golem, no matter how you can carry the whole group in all fractals ... it makes me so angry.
    And all players don't have static, ( and knowledge, and skill...) and don't have patience to make 2 or 3 gears AND wait for a Ren or a FB to join with the ancillary gear. They want quickness, they want fury, they want aegis, they want to be babysitted when there are conditions, projectiles, daze/stun, they don't want to die because of little mistakes or clumsy coordination, they really don't care if you carry them to heaven but make 8k instead of 11k.
    Edit: chrono/druid have utilities and ease that FB and ren don't, and inversely. I don't see why there will not be place for both compo and we should absolutely ERASE from the game one of them.

    I will tell once again. In fight guardian can play dh or fb and he has to decide before fight what he's doing. If wer coming to chrono utilities, skips and pulls it can be done both by dps and a support, which means fb/Rev can still use it in t4s and rec.
    Btw I don't have in mind any utilities that druid has and Renebrand doesn't. (maybe range dmg to push away balls on skorvald)
    Edit: to sum up renebrand don't lose anything that chrono druid has

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I'm quite interested how you rotate with druid, because I got 10K IN INSTANCE, and because if you look benchmark on YT and website berserker druid was 17k last year, I didn't see nerf since, so I'm concerned. I confess with strength runes you can lose 2k, but 12k ? May be swap weapons ?

    And what the kitten are you on about with PS? WHICHEVER trait would you INSTEAD bring on a power bannerwarrior? Synergy for 20 more dps? But only if theres a firefield to combo? Or... shout trait for that onetime healshout you are using as opener - if at all? Stop trying to defend your stupid idiotic traitline choices by trying to mock my very logical suggestion that all bannerwarriors should just stop being kitten idiots and just bring PS trait instead of renegades kitten over their alacrity uptime.

    That funny because all your posts on others topics were about berserker FB + diviner Ren, but you are scared about alacrity and not taking RR in a static group, and your "logical suggestion" to say to others who bring 25 mights and perma uptime alacrity on boss is that they are "wrong", but the clumsy loop of quickness of zerk FB ... don't worry it's okai!?? I'm a bit confused in that choice of priorities. Very low quickness margin ... convenient for CC phase at Artsariiv or where you kite a lot because of instabilities or aoe.
    And why not take more boon duration, equip mantra of liberation and Weighty term ? No need when you can lose seconds to dodge, jump, turn back etc, and don't forget your support lose 3k DPS on golem. What a logical suggestion.
    You made a compo for a static group, and that's great, but bash chrono+druid because you want to impose your choice to others, or bashing Diviner/Harrier/Vipere FB because of an idiot golem, no matter how you can carry the whole group in all fractals ... it makes me so angry.
    And all players don't have static, ( and knowledge, and skill...) and don't have patience to make 2 or 3 gears AND wait for a Ren or a FB to join with the ancillary gear. They want quickness, they want fury, they want aegis, they want to be babysitted when there are conditions, projectiles, daze/stun, they don't want to die because of little mistakes or clumsy coordination, they really don't care if you carry them to heaven but make 8k instead of 11k.
    Edit: chrono/druid have utilities and ease that FB and ren don't, and inversely. I don't see why there will not be place for both compo and we should absolutely ERASE from the game one of them.

    I will tell once again. In fight guardian can play dh or fb and he has to decide before fight what he's doing. If wer coming to chrono utilities, skips and pulls it can be done both by dps and a support, which means fb/Rev can still use it in t4s and rec.
    Btw I don't have in mind any utilities that druid has and Renebrand doesn't. (maybe range dmg to push away balls on skorvald)
    Edit: to sum up renebrand don't lose anything that chrono druid has

    Frost and sun spirits, spotter, GoE, against assassin presence and Soulcleave.
    Ren is not that easy to play, or more accurate it does not always correspond to group skill or situation, because of its energy management; like if you need CC, anti-proj, F2-F4,... you can sometimes be stucked in a latence waiting for energy or legend swap; FB is easier in this way, and druid too.
    Druid+chrono is still very effective todays, for simples reason : they are extremely accessible builds and safe for others members; range, aoe visibility... habits, also because of effectivness in 10 man squad + The most important : there are not a lot of ren. And if you find one + FB, this is not clear for all what gear to use, if healer needed and which one should be. So you can see situation where you expected reflects or long stab uptime but the guys are(see Yasi) zerk with few support skills, or not enough quickness/alacrity due to placement/range issue, or on the contrary you have 2 harriers/minstrel guys with heal oriented builds and so no dps, no bane signet etc. I 've also seen a Ren+FB, but ren was Condi DPS, and FB was 100% healing skills and traits, without quickness...

    The meta is present, it is what people play with most efficiency and with ease, the meta is not hypothetical, like "people should play like that", nor on the single DPS criteria, nor effective for only few players/static, because it means it's not accessible for all ( otherwise people should play chrono +war since 3 years )
    And for now, chrono+druid/healer is still meta, Ren+FB has very strong potential and, with no doubt, should surpass chrono+druid, but it needs some adjustments to be better defined and accessible, and popularize. I'm not sure you understand my position : I love FB, I try hard FB and ren, but very often I don't find my complement or he's blind and useless, so I go harrier FB to carry players to heaven, like siren's reef with "We bleed fire" + "Birds", or deepstone etc, or I relog to chrono or DPS and the group in LFG fills 10 times faster ... It doesn't encourage to tryhard.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I'm quite interested how you rotate with druid, because I got 10K IN INSTANCE, and because if you look benchmark on YT and website berserker druid was 17k last year, I didn't see nerf since, so I'm concerned. I confess with strength runes you can lose 2k, but 12k ? May be swap weapons ?

    And what the kitten are you on about with PS? WHICHEVER trait would you INSTEAD bring on a power bannerwarrior? Synergy for 20 more dps? But only if theres a firefield to combo? Or... shout trait for that onetime healshout you are using as opener - if at all? Stop trying to defend your stupid idiotic traitline choices by trying to mock my very logical suggestion that all bannerwarriors should just stop being kitten idiots and just bring PS trait instead of renegades kitten over their alacrity uptime.

    That funny because all your posts on others topics were about berserker FB + diviner Ren, but you are scared about alacrity and not taking RR in a static group, and your "logical suggestion" to say to others who bring 25 mights and perma uptime alacrity on boss is that they are "wrong", but the clumsy loop of quickness of zerk FB ... don't worry it's okai!?? I'm a bit confused in that choice of priorities. Very low quickness margin ... convenient for CC phase at Artsariiv or where you kite a lot because of instabilities or aoe.
    And why not take more boon duration, equip mantra of liberation and Weighty term ? No need when you can lose seconds to dodge, jump, turn back etc, and don't forget your support lose 3k DPS on golem. What a logical suggestion.
    You made a compo for a static group, and that's great, but bash chrono+druid because you want to impose your choice to others, or bashing Diviner/Harrier/Vipere FB because of an idiot golem, no matter how you can carry the whole group in all fractals ... it makes me so angry.
    And all players don't have static, ( and knowledge, and skill...) and don't have patience to make 2 or 3 gears AND wait for a Ren or a FB to join with the ancillary gear. They want quickness, they want fury, they want aegis, they want to be babysitted when there are conditions, projectiles, daze/stun, they don't want to die because of little mistakes or clumsy coordination, they really don't care if you carry them to heaven but make 8k instead of 11k.
    Edit: chrono/druid have utilities and ease that FB and ren don't, and inversely. I don't see why there will not be place for both compo and we should absolutely ERASE from the game one of them.

    I will tell once again. In fight guardian can play dh or fb and he has to decide before fight what he's doing. If wer coming to chrono utilities, skips and pulls it can be done both by dps and a support, which means fb/Rev can still use it in t4s and rec.
    Btw I don't have in mind any utilities that druid has and Renebrand doesn't. (maybe range dmg to push away balls on skorvald)
    Edit: to sum up renebrand don't lose anything that chrono druid has

    Frost and sun spirits, spotter, GoE, against assassin presence and Soulcleave.
    Ren is not that easy to play, or more accurate it does not always correspond to group skill or situation, because of its energy management; like if you need CC, anti-proj, F2-F4,... you can sometimes be stucked in a latence waiting for energy or legend swap; FB is easier in this way, and druid too.
    Druid+chrono is still very effective todays, for simples reason : they are extremely accessible builds and safe for others members; range, aoe visibility... habits, also because of effectivness in 10 man squad + The most important : there are not a lot of ren. And if you find one + FB, this is not clear for all what gear to use, if healer needed and which one should be. So you can see situation where you expected reflects or long stab uptime but the guys are(see Yasi) zerk with few support skills, or not enough quickness/alacrity due to placement/range issue, or on the contrary you have 2 harriers/minstrel guys with heal oriented builds and so no dps, no bane signet etc. I 've also seen a Ren+FB, but ren was Condi DPS, and FB was 100% healing skills and traits, without quickness...

    The meta is present, it is what people play with most efficiency and with ease, the meta is not hypothetical, like "people should play like that", nor on the single DPS criteria, nor effective for only few players/static, because it means it's not accessible for all ( otherwise people should play chrono +war since 3 years )
    And for now, chrono+druid/healer is still meta, Ren+FB has very strong potential and, with no doubt, should surpass chrono+druid, but it needs some adjustments to be better defined and accessible, and popularize. I'm not sure you understand my position : I love FB, I try hard FB and ren, but very often I don't find my complement or he's blind and useless, so I go harrier FB to carry players to heaven, like siren's reef with "We bleed fire" + "Birds", or deepstone etc, or I relog to chrono or DPS and the group in LFG fills 10 times faster ... It doesn't encourage to tryhard.

    Frost-psb, spotter becomes useless at some point, goe-it's the only one that's rly missing in fb Ren. Firebrand even in zerk can take reflection wall for the times when slb is not spinning.
    Yea it's clear Rene should heal, unless ur team is running from tablet. Ppl just are not interested in that becouse they are used to old comp. But set Renebrand comp just works better. (imo dps should be pchrono, and pslb, phases well enough while having highest utilities)

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You trade Glyth of Empowerment for Bane Signet and Kalla's Fervor. You lose Frost Spirits but that can be taken care of by a Soulbeast given a perfect composition. Might, Fury and other boons you can handle easily. All of this has been said before. And the argument about which member of the FB / Renegade combo should be the Harrier support if needed mostly comes down to which build each individual has mastered themselves and about the bad experiences they have made with their complementory class. I obviously have my own preference but that is beside the point.

    Arguing on the forums will do very little to speed up how things are done by PuGs. Consider that most groups on the LFG aren't filled with people who are able to have multiple supportive and offensive ascended sets and builds ready per class, let alone who are able to play them well. They go with what they know, what they have and what they expect from other players. New builds might be quickly picked up by certain people and statics but the majority is rather slow in adjusting.
    Pretty sure smoothly clearing content, even if a little slower than the speedclear META, is what PuG groups prefer which means they will eventually pick up FB / Renegade more frequently. But that will take time. People often assume something is best simply because it's what everyone plays. Which, at least to a certain degree, isn't the worst way of thinking even if it makes said changes in the PuG META a little slow and tedious.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.

    I guess I'm fine with FB getting tuned down further in terms of 5 Man content (although, considering the amount of nerfs it has gotten, I'm not sure how to really do that anymore without breaking the spec), if Druid get's massively nerfed in terms of 10 man content with some further Chrono nerfs.

    Yes, FB+Ren outperforms Druid+Chrono in Fractals, but looking at meta Raid comps, it's still 2-8 Mesmers + Druid on every single boss.
    I'm just glad there is the option for variety now, even it it might not be optimal.
    Doesn't really matter if you are running Chrono+Druid, FB+Rev, FB+Chrono etc, you will get through Fractals just fine, including CM's.

    Considering how stupid vastly superior Chrono+Druid was in every single piece of PvE content compared to anything else for years, I'm just glad for every day were that's not the case anymore/again.

    E:
    On a side node, with how vastly superior Chrono's utility is, such as skips, be it portal, blinks or stealth or even pulls for trash, Rev+FB should be the better in combat supports, as they are lacking the out of combat skips etc.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • In fractals with long bossfights such as 99CM and 100CM renegade and firebrand (either harrier ren or diviner) is supperior to chrono + druid/3dps.

    Chrono comes ahead in fractals with alot of small fightts with ads thanks to focus pull andthe fact that in those fights boons dont need to be perma but just few seconds and chronos boons are applied in longer interval so chrono chrono skipping once pulling and provading boons even if enemies are not slain yet

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.

    I guess I'm fine with FB getting tuned down further in terms of 5 Man content (although, considering the amount of nerfs it has gotten, I'm not sure how to really do that anymore without breaking the spec), if Druid get's massively nerfed in terms of 10 man content with some further Chrono nerfs.

    Yes, FB+Ren outperforms Druid+Chrono in Fractals, but looking at meta Raid comps, it's still 2-8 Mesmers + Druid on every single boss.
    I'm just glad there is the option for variety now, even it it might not be optimal.
    Doesn't really matter if you are running Chrono+Druid, FB+Rev, FB+Chrono etc, you will get through Fractals just fine, including CM's.

    Considering how stupid vastly superior Chrono+Druid was in every single piece of PvE content compared to anything else for years, I'm just glad for every day were that's not the case anymore/again.

    E:
    On a side node, with how vastly superior Chrono's utility is, such as skips, be it portal, blinks or stealth or even pulls for trash, Rev+FB should be the better in combat supports, as they are lacking the out of combat skips etc.

    IMO fb needs further nerfs both in pvp and pve, it just has to much kits to let other supports be viable. 30 skills in total which gives to many possibilities. Or just rework the class

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2019

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    IMO fb needs further nerfs both in pvp and pve, it just has to much kits to let other supports be viable. 30 skills in total which gives to many possibilities. Or just rework the class

    Right.. I feel like there's a pretty long list of "just rework x", which is easier said than done, and I personally feel FB is far from being on top of that list.

    For sPvP, as long as the Meta is so incredibly bursty, I don't see Firebrand holding down any other supports. If you were to cripple FB further, the result would just be that no support is viable instead.
    For WvW, Guardian has always been the core of any zerg, and if you nerf FB to a point of being unplayable, it's core Guard again. Stab etc. is just too important, and a trademark of Guard, while lacking on other supports.
    For PvE, Firebrand isn't anywhere near as dominant as Chrono was for 3 years, or even still is, especially when taking into account Raids. Other supports and healer's are still perfectly fine to run in Fractals, and those that aren't are so because of their own deficiencies, not because of FB holding them down, imo.

    Not saying there isn't still room to shave a bit off of FB, but it isn't anywhere near as much of an issue as Chrono was.
    I would rather like to see careful support Tempest, Scourge etc. buffs, with minor shaves to FB and Chrono at this point, than major swings.
    Balance of supports has come a long way since Anet dared to nerf the almighty chrono already.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    IMO fb needs further nerfs both in pvp and pve, it just has to much kits to let other supports be viable. 30 skills in total which gives to many possibilities. Or just rework the class

    Right.. I feel like there's a pretty long list of "just rework x", which is easier said than done, and I personally feel FB is far from being on top of that list.

    For sPvP, as long as the Meta is so incredibly bursty, I don't see Firebrand holding down any other supports. If you were to cripple FB further, the result would just be that no support is viable instead.
    For WvW, Guardian has always been the core of any zerg, and if you nerf FB to a point of being unplayable, it's core Guard again. Stab etc. is just too important, and a trademark of Guard, while lacking on other supports.
    For PvE, Firebrand isn't anywhere near as dominant as Chrono was for 3 years, or even still is, especially when taking into account Raids. Other supports and healer's are still perfectly fine to run in Fractals, and those that aren't are so because of their own deficiencies, not because of FB holding them down, imo.

    Not saying there isn't still room to shave a bit off of FB, but it isn't anywhere near as much of an issue as Chrono was.
    I would rather like to see careful support Tempest, Scourge etc. buffs, with minor shaves to FB and Chrono at this point, than major swings.
    Balance of supports has come a long way since Anet dared to nerf the almighty chrono already.

    Yea I agree list of needed nerfs is long, but let's focus on supports. I didn't play all these classes so plz correct me if I'm wrong.
    In pve the must be boons are: quickness, fury, might and alacrity. Only classes that can provide alacrity are chrono and renegade
    Chrono provides quickness and ala, so 2nd support needs to cover fury and might(or at least part of it since bs can go strength runes). Scourge can cover only might, scrapper has highest healing, and I'm not sure what else does it bring-I never played it. Tempest has might, prot and druid covers perma might and fury.
    Rene covers some might(not perma), prot, can cover stab, and ofc alacrity. So we need rest of might, quickness and fury. Only 2 supports that I have in mind that covers quickness are fb and chrono. Chro o can't cover fury so choice is simple.
    The problem of comparing fb to many other support, is that it provides much more unique boons like prot stab Aegis spam. Same in pvp. It has just way to many boons that put other supports far far away.
    Also I didn't mention class specific buffs that are only offered by renegade and druid.
    IMO to solve this is to give more class specific buffs, give other classes ways to cover quickness and fury, but only if specifficly traited, which would prevent these classes from boon spamming in pvp/wvw as a dps

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Safandula.8723 said:

    @Asum.4960 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    IMO fb needs further nerfs both in pvp and pve, it just has to much kits to let other supports be viable. 30 skills in total which gives to many possibilities. Or just rework the class

    Right.. I feel like there's a pretty long list of "just rework x", which is easier said than done, and I personally feel FB is far from being on top of that list.

    For sPvP, as long as the Meta is so incredibly bursty, I don't see Firebrand holding down any other supports. If you were to cripple FB further, the result would just be that no support is viable instead.
    For WvW, Guardian has always been the core of any zerg, and if you nerf FB to a point of being unplayable, it's core Guard again. Stab etc. is just too important, and a trademark of Guard, while lacking on other supports.
    For PvE, Firebrand isn't anywhere near as dominant as Chrono was for 3 years, or even still is, especially when taking into account Raids. Other supports and healer's are still perfectly fine to run in Fractals, and those that aren't are so because of their own deficiencies, not because of FB holding them down, imo.

    Not saying there isn't still room to shave a bit off of FB, but it isn't anywhere near as much of an issue as Chrono was.
    I would rather like to see careful support Tempest, Scourge etc. buffs, with minor shaves to FB and Chrono at this point, than major swings.
    Balance of supports has come a long way since Anet dared to nerf the almighty chrono already.

    Yea I agree list of needed nerfs is long, but let's focus on supports. I didn't play all these classes so plz correct me if I'm wrong.
    In pve the must be boons are: quickness, fury, might and alacrity. Only classes that can provide alacrity are chrono and renegade
    Chrono provides quickness and ala, so 2nd support needs to cover fury and might(or at least part of it since bs can go strength runes). Scourge can cover only might, scrapper has highest healing, and I'm not sure what else does it bring-I never played it. Tempest has might, prot and druid covers perma might and fury.
    Rene covers some might(not perma), prot, can cover stab, and ofc alacrity. So we need rest of might, quickness and fury. Only 2 supports that I have in mind that covers quickness are fb and chrono. Chro o can't cover fury so choice is simple.
    The problem of comparing fb to many other support, is that it provides much more unique boons like prot stab Aegis spam. Same in pvp. It has just way to many boons that put other supports far far away.
    Also I didn't mention class specific buffs that are only offered by renegade and druid.
    IMO to solve this is to give more class specific buffs, give other classes ways to cover quickness and fury, but only if specifficly traited, which would prevent these classes from boon spamming in pvp/wvw as a dps

    Yea, currently support Firebrand is almost like old Chrono, except without Alacrity, very low Vigor, weaker add pulls, no boon strip, vastly lower CC and no portal blink skips, but healing instead.
    I'm just not sure what boons you would "remove" from FB in particular, without crippling the comp as a whole too much or screwing other Guardian Builds/Specs by nerfing the core.

    Something easier is, what boons need to be added to other supports instead to make them competitive.
    Scourge's boon support for example is laughable, but it wouldn't take too much creativity to make it competitive with Druid as a 10 man Might and Fury provider and healer. Tempest already isn't far off.
    Another thing that keeps them from competing are the mentioned unique buffs, or lack thereof. So they either need competitive unique buffs, unique buffs being removed from other supports (Druid), or have a kit strong enough that it competes despite of not having unique buffs.

    Boons like Quickness are a dangerous thing to add to anything, considering it's power, so I'm kind of glad they are doing it sparingly. Not sure we will ever see it added to already existing Elite Specs as major component of their kit.
    Alacrity is in a similar spot.

    But that leads us to the biggest reason other supports aren't viable, which is lack of Quickness and Alacrity, and with that, competing with Druid.
    If a spec doesn't have access to either one of those, the only support it can be paired with is Chrono, as it's the only spec providing both, which then means competing with Druid, which provides too many unique buffs to compete with, while being completely untouchable in Raids due to access to 10 man support like nothing else.

    So we have a situation of either,
    a support provides Alacrity - can be paired with FB and technically Chrono, but has to compete with Renegade and to some extend Chrono (currently keeping no support from being viable)
    a support provides Quickness - can be paired with Renegade and technically Chrono, but has to compete with Firebrand and to some extend Chrono (currently keeping no support from being viable)
    a support provides both - can be paired with Druid etc, but has to compete with Chrono (currently keeping no support from being viable)
    a support provides neither - can be paired with Chrono, has to compete with Druid (the situation all the other supports are in)

    As you can see, Firebrand isn't directly keeping any other support from being viable currently, in PvE at the very least. Quickness and Alacrity availability is.
    Once other specs have access to at least on of those boons in form of team support, FB, Renegade or Chrono might very well need more nerfs, but at this point, there isn't anything keeping other supports from being used, aside from them being lacklustre themselves.

    Even if you strip away every boon from Firebrand but Quickness, it still would be the only Support to work with Renegade, aside from the omni tool that is Chrono, and wouldn't help any other support to become viable.
    It's not the same situation as old Chrono directly keeping FB+Ren (as only other Quickness + Alacrity alternative) from being viable, by providing literally everything and better.

    TL;DR
    Nerfing Firebrand won't make any other support in their current state viable.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.
    In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.
    Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.
    Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.
    Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.
    The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.
    Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

    Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

    Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

    I had actually written a post about that a while ago https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yeah lol, the other day when Amala had birds+fire+last laugh I had a DH in pug that was asking to get crono+duid. Like dude, wake up, what you crono +druid going to do here?

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Amineo.8951Amineo.8951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    People want to nerf Firebrand in PvE? Am I dreaming? The class is barely taken in Raids and people still want Chrono + Druid everywhere!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.
    In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.
    Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.
    Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.
    Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.
    The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.
    Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

    Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

    Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

    I had actually written a post about that a while ago https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

    Your thread is lacking the most important composition: very well played meta statics without a healer.

    I know speed clear groups which do CMs in support renegade, support fb, warrior and 2 dps (none of the supports healer) pushing 20k on each damage dealer and 10k on the supports. Druid is not meta in the top tier statics, it's meta in the good statics and top tier PUG groups.

    That leads nicely into the issues this thread has, people are comparing apples to oranges difficulty wise.

    A.) If we are comparing absolute clear times, then which level of player skill are we talking about? Because Renebrand beats out on dps without a healer.
    B.) If we are talking safest composition with mediocre clear times? Then Renebrand beats out again with more utility and easier uptime on boons as well as better heals.
    C.) If we are talking mediocre composition which also does chrono skips? Then chono+druid comes out ahead again.

    This was all pre Tuesdays nerf to SoI. While Renebrand is even stronger now since Renegade got buffed.

    Both compositions are still valid (though not perfectly played chrono groups will feel the lacking alacrity and quickness even more if they miss wells) but without skips, Renebrand is the safer and stronger composition overall. With skips factored in and perfect play, Renebrand still outperforms since they just save time on fights which the chrono+x comp has to make up for first.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have both, - sup chrno and heal rene. Also complete's cms+t4 on both.
    The rene heal + fb heal + hybdrid sup scrourge I pref wiht guildmates or low grade pug's, to maximise nurse style. Also wiht non skilled ppl I avoid put so little wells on it(especial with social awayk) and believe that they got buff on 3 tick .. no way - no chance.

    If this is strong 250+ kp I mostly use devine chrno, and no matter who is heal, or not heal at all, and no matter that instabilities it is.

    want solid balance ? - play chess.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.
    In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.
    Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.
    Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.
    Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.
    The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.
    Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

    Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

    Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

    I had actually written a post about that a while ago https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

    Ye chrono has unreplacable skips,thats for sure. Butfor t4s, 1 dps can switch to pchrono and problem solved, portals and blinks are not something unique to diviner stats. While full dps rev or fb will be useless(well, fb will stay as it is).

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:

    Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

    Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

    I had actually written a post about that a while ago https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

    Just list the skips only a chrono can do. That are not that many!
    Just underground, harpy and cliffisde. Everything else can be done by the weaver with a portal device. Also Renebrand is way better in longer fights than chrono. Chrono lacks a lot of sustain especially with some of the new instabs. Chrono + druid + skips are probably slower than rene + fb without skips anyways since they save multiple minutes on the cm fights alone.
    Chrono + 3dps feels like the new good weather comp. It's almost as fast as rene + fb on a lot of fights if you have good instabilities. You will have a terrible time if not. Low scholar uptime will also lower the dps on top of being risky without any heal like fb tome or kalla if things go wrong.
    Chrono + 3dps is feels just terrible with all the random damage they added. Birds + we bleed fire especially. Reduces scholar uptime to 0 when you don't have a heal source.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.
    In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.
    Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.
    Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.
    Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.
    The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.
    Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

    Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

    Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

    I had actually written a post about that a while ago https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

    Your thread is lacking the most important composition: very well played meta statics without a healer.

    I know speed clear groups which do CMs in support renegade, support fb, warrior and 2 dps (none of the supports healer) pushing 20k on each damage dealer and 10k on the supports. Druid is not meta in the top tier statics, it's meta in the good statics and top tier PUG groups.

    That leads nicely into the issues this thread has, people are comparing apples to oranges difficulty wise.

    A.) If we are comparing absolute clear times, then which level of player skill are we talking about? Because Renebrand beats out on dps without a healer.
    B.) If we are talking safest composition with mediocre clear times? Then Renebrand beats out again with more utility and easier uptime on boons as well as better heals.
    C.) If we are talking mediocre composition which also does chrono skips? Then chono+druid comes out ahead again.

    This was all pre Tuesdays nerf to SoI. While Renebrand is even stronger now since Renegade got buffed.

    Both compositions are still valid (though not perfectly played chrono groups will feel the lacking alacrity and quickness even more if they miss wells) but without skips, Renebrand is the safer and stronger composition overall. With skips factored in and perfect play, Renebrand still outperforms since they just save time on fights which the chrono+x comp has to make up for first.

    I mean, there is no real discussion to have here, when the comp got released dT did some pretty try hard test, and in no single run did Firebrand/Renegade came up first.
    -Something which you guys also appear to be forgetting is the Shattered Concentration traitline from Domination, which removes boon on shatter, even though the Warrior can swap to Spell-breaker, this is still much better value.

    So I guess the only difference would then be as you suggested in point A) "which level of player skill are we talking about".

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.
    In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.
    Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.
    Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.
    Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.
    The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.
    Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

    Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

    Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

    I had actually written a post about that a while ago https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

    Your thread is lacking the most important composition: very well played meta statics without a healer.

    I know speed clear groups which do CMs in support renegade, support fb, warrior and 2 dps (none of the supports healer) pushing 20k on each damage dealer and 10k on the supports. Druid is not meta in the top tier statics, it's meta in the good statics and top tier PUG groups.

    That leads nicely into the issues this thread has, people are comparing apples to oranges difficulty wise.

    A.) If we are comparing absolute clear times, then which level of player skill are we talking about? Because Renebrand beats out on dps without a healer.
    B.) If we are talking safest composition with mediocre clear times? Then Renebrand beats out again with more utility and easier uptime on boons as well as better heals.
    C.) If we are talking mediocre composition which also does chrono skips? Then chono+druid comes out ahead again.

    This was all pre Tuesdays nerf to SoI. While Renebrand is even stronger now since Renegade got buffed.

    Both compositions are still valid (though not perfectly played chrono groups will feel the lacking alacrity and quickness even more if they miss wells) but without skips, Renebrand is the safer and stronger composition overall. With skips factored in and perfect play, Renebrand still outperforms since they just save time on fights which the chrono+x comp has to make up for first.

    I mean, there is no real discussion to have here, when the comp got released dT did some pretty try hard test, and in no single run did Firebrand/Renegade came up first.
    -Something which you guys also appear to be forgetting is the Shattered Concentration traitline from Domination, which removes boon on shatter, even though the Warrior can swap to Spell-breaker, this is still much better value.

    So I guess the only difference would then be as you suggested in point A) "which level of player skill are we talking about".

    Things not considered in their test:

    • perfect play and current instabilities, many of which can not be countered by a chrono+3dps+warrior comp
    • recent changes (with chrono alacrity and quickness uptime again taking a hit)
    • safety and easy of play. Yes, if you have permanent alacrity and quickness no matter how hard it is to upkeep, you will perform well on chrono. This is not a realistic assumption for over 99% of the player base, even less if you assume chrono+druid comps which already show lack of skill
    • no healer
    • skips on alternate characters
    • yes boons hit Renebrand harder than chrono+x, then again birds, We breath Fire and some of the other new instabilities (some of which have no counter) make life a lot harder on chrono+x

    If you check dT right now, there is meta builds for both comps. https://discretize.eu/builds

    When running chrono+x you have to switch way earlier to druid than with Renebrand, because Renebrand has sufficient heal with Kalla elite even without going heal Renegade.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Safandula.8723 said:
    Soo yea I know chrono can easily maintain perma quickness and Ala with 50%bd in raids. But in fotm u need 100% and land all ur wells and tots, while any splitting can badly affect ur uptime.
    In the same time, fb in full zerk keep perma quickness, while doing bs dps, Rene press 1 button to keep up alacrity.
    Don't get me wrong, I love build diversity and fact we don't have to play chrono anymore, but renebrand is just way ahead in terms of boons, dps and survivability. Chrono comps just struggle.
    Another thing is the duty contribution in renebrand comp. Fb deals better dps, has higher supporting abilities-perma protect, Aegis spam and perma stab), while Renee's job is to press F4, F1 off cd, occasionally F2 if bs don't take strength runes with dumplings, and kallas elite when available. Use staff 5 off CD and boonrip with npng. I feel It kinda boring, becouse than ur just maximizing ur dps to 10-15k dps (assuming ur on Shiro). Imo fb should get toned down a bit(both in pve and pvp) while rev could get a little buffs.
    Now wer coming to chrono part. Hard boon maintaining, no Aegis, only source of stab is spirit of nature(none in 3 dps comp). Chronos are forced to take illusions only to shorten CD on cs. I would be fine if we could occasionally take inspi for Aegis share on 30 s CD. Also, being interrupted in beggining of cs, just screws up boon uptime A LOT.
    The last thing may just be l2p issue, but imo, chrono comp is just harder to play, while being less rewarding. Renebrand just needs to stack together to be effective. I'm just simply asking for a little chrono comp buffs.
    Only reason ppl are asking in lfg for chrono is becouse: a) they didn't play renebrand, b) they are used to old comp c) ppl are afraid to put resources in gearing new classes, if meta can change soon

    Okay, first of, Renegade + Firebrand will never outperform Chrono/Druid or Chrono + 3 dps in terms of clearing time. While your analysis is good, and that Firebrand + Renegade does provide many more boons, you are not taking into consideration the skips which chrono can do. And just for that chrono will always be way ahead of Renebrand. On top of that, Renebrand works in CM's but tend to perform less good if fights are too long, assuming that your renegade is running full diviner, either your renegade or firebrand will have to switch to healer.

    Overall, if the Firebrand + Renegade are a pair and know how to play their class then yes. It is a good alternative. Since the last chrono CC nerfs, Firebrand + Renegade also provide way more CC

    I had actually written a post about that a while ago https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/41897/how-long-should-you-take-to-clear-daily-fractals/p1

    Your thread is lacking the most important composition: very well played meta statics without a healer.

    I know speed clear groups which do CMs in support renegade, support fb, warrior and 2 dps (none of the supports healer) pushing 20k on each damage dealer and 10k on the supports. Druid is not meta in the top tier statics, it's meta in the good statics and top tier PUG groups.

    That leads nicely into the issues this thread has, people are comparing apples to oranges difficulty wise.

    A.) If we are comparing absolute clear times, then which level of player skill are we talking about? Because Renebrand beats out on dps without a healer.
    B.) If we are talking safest composition with mediocre clear times? Then Renebrand beats out again with more utility and easier uptime on boons as well as better heals.
    C.) If we are talking mediocre composition which also does chrono skips? Then chono+druid comes out ahead again.

    This was all pre Tuesdays nerf to SoI. While Renebrand is even stronger now since Renegade got buffed.

    Both compositions are still valid (though not perfectly played chrono groups will feel the lacking alacrity and quickness even more if they miss wells) but without skips, Renebrand is the safer and stronger composition overall. With skips factored in and perfect play, Renebrand still outperforms since they just save time on fights which the chrono+x comp has to make up for first.

    I mean, there is no real discussion to have here, when the comp got released dT did some pretty try hard test, and in no single run did Firebrand/Renegade came up first.
    -Something which you guys also appear to be forgetting is the Shattered Concentration traitline from Domination, which removes boon on shatter, even though the Warrior can swap to Spell-breaker, this is still much better value.

    So I guess the only difference would then be as you suggested in point A) "which level of player skill are we talking about".

    Rev can use banish enchantments for insta boonrip, which is only problematic on mama, due to many and fast retargeting.
    Rn as far as I know dt, uses mainly fb rev, as I'm reading through discord

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Speaking as one that doesn't do CM's and only T4 (mostly with pugs), as well as not aiming for speedruns:

    ANet can nerf mesmer/druid combo a little bit more.
    It is already lacking behind with the new instabilities in most cases and it is way harder to play right (especially the mesmer part). But: there is no other way Renebrand in any form becomes popular among the players. When Renebrand has gotten a solid grip in the community chrono should be buffed up back to be more rewarding (since it is way harder to play).

    Fb can carry groups at the moment, as it deals decent dps or heal, quickness and with the aegis/stabi spam some of the mechanics during fights can be ignored by everyone else.
    Renegade is somewhat dull to play (if not healing - try to chase one of your party members with the tablet while he thinks it needs to be dodged), but that's more of a class (energy) problem than a comp problem.

    Plus: chronos are pretty much locked in the support role atm, some more options would be fine (they are available, but only few use them)

  • Deepcuts.9740Deepcuts.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019

    What I understood from this thread is: I like playing class A. Forget about class B. Class A looks tastier and more people will play it.
    Maybe a mix of "I like class A and B". F class C and D"
    My crazy idea is: play what you like with whoever you like.
    You don't have a group and have to go lfg like most of us mortals? Tough luck.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    I just don't get why some people want absolutely to erase from the world one of the compositions. This is just FANTASTIC that we have CHOICE !!!! Why would you like to impose a dictatorship ??
    I have FB (harrier, vipere, diviner), I have Chrono (Zerk dps, Diviner) I find an utility to both.

    I have encountered a group "Harrier gear on FB is not meta" + kick, not even got time to say i can change gear (and who the hell insta kick people, like people in raid or CM don't have more than one gear or class?) dude WHAT IS THE META NOW ?? Next group will want a harrier FB because diviner ren or no support at all, other wants chrono/druid, an other is looking for vipere FB for condi compo ... SO WHAT IS THE META ???
    If you pug, if you play Boonsupport+healer, who cares you do 6k DPS instead of other support with 9k if you carry properly your group as intended ? You should take a look first at the war that hide itself behind "bannerslave" to do 10k at best, or other players with bad rotation, not the DPS of a support class.
    Not everything is about your static run, nor only CMs, nor a golem benchmark, because people have habits too, because some fractals and instabilities combination can ask particular roles/skills, because if you're looking for speedrun, don't play with 3 supports classes, play chrono+DPS and L2P.

    Chrono/Druid or FB/Ren; heal FB or Heal Ren ... who cares really ? Make your own LFG, or your own static.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    There is speedclear optimal and there is optimal for you. The right composition and build choices greatly depend on the group in question. This will always be the case no matter how much either side is buffed or nerfed. But there are finally multiple truely viable choices to pick from nowadays. Why people would want to reduce said variety by further nerfing the old top dogs is beyond me.

    It comes down to priorities as far as increasing group DPS is concerned. Support damage is something to think about once your damage dealers (including the warriors) are able to reach a certain point or benchmark.
    Hard to justify the complaints about missing 3-5k on a Firebrand while your damage dealers are lacking 20k+ between them, even more so if that comes with greatly reduced support from said Firebrand. Support which is going to be needed as you are greatly prolonging phases due to the lack of overall damage, which then in turn leads to far more damage coming in throught additional boss mechanics.
    It is a different story if you reached that point where things just melt. Then it might be time to consider further min-maxing in the form of support DPS.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I just don't get why some people want absolutely to erase from the world one of the compositions. This is just FANTASTIC that we have CHOICE !!!! Why would you like to impose a dictatorship ??
    I have FB (harrier, vipere, diviner), I have Chrono (Zerk dps, Diviner) I find an utility to both.

    I have encountered a group "Harrier gear on FB is not meta" + kick, not even got time to say i can change gear (and who the hell insta kick people, like people in raid or CM don't have more than one gear or class?) dude WHAT IS THE META NOW ?? Next group will want a harrier FB because diviner ren or no support at all, other wants chrono/druid, an other is looking for vipere FB for condi compo ... SO WHAT IS THE META ???
    If you pug, if you play Boonsupport+healer, who cares you do 6k DPS instead of other support with 9k if you carry properly your group as intended ? You should take a look first at the war that hide itself behind "bannerslave" to do 10k at best, or other players with bad rotation, not the DPS of a support class.
    Not everything is about your static run, nor only CMs, nor a golem benchmark, because people have habits too, because some fractals and instabilities combination can ask particular roles/skills, because if you're looking for speedrun, don't play with 3 supports classes, play chrono+DPS and L2P.

    Chrono/Druid or FB/Ren; heal FB or Heal Ren ... who cares really ? Make your own LFG, or your own static.

    who want to erase other compositions? im just saying there is imbalance between them. meta in fb rev is to fb go dps and rev go diviner for cms(where u need only dps and avoid aoes) and harrier rev for some t4s where there is to many adds and random kitten everywhere. heal rev is enough to keep party enough if they dont randomly run everywhere. diviner rev deals 10-15k dps fb deals same dps as bs, which is huge dps boost and with good party u can kill everything before they kill u. and u get heals from kalla elite which scales with rev power. if rev goes harrier its still higher dps than chrono/druid. and if fb goes heal dps is almost the same as chrono+druid but survivability is much better. u see imbalance now?
    yeye chrono has focus and better skips, thats true, but its the end of fb rev cons

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    Just run 3 DH with the quickness shout, problem solved you don't need FB anymore.

    Edit; Hey ! That an idea; in CM's dragon's maw is nearly useless, 3 DH +ren means quickness shouts 3*9.5sec quickness at 34sec CD.
    One can take PI if cc not enough. You take a BS or a 4th DPS like soulbeast for burst, GG you have better DPS than FB-Ren

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Just run 3 DH with the quickness shout, problem solved you don't need FB anymore.

    Edit; Hey ! That an idea; in CM's dragon's maw is nearly useless, 3 DH +ren means quickness shouts 3*9.5sec quickness at 34sec CD.
    One can take PI if cc not enough. You take a BS or a 4th DPS like soulbeast for burst, GG you have better DPS than FB-Ren

    Net result:

    • loss of druid buffs since no Soulbeast
    • loss of utility from FB tomes
    • barely useful BS since the new banners barely justify taking a BS over an additional dps

    So no, the 3 DH comp is not better than FB+Ren (and does not provide permanent quickness without diviner gear). Now you could run Soulbeast, 3 DH and Renegade with some diviner gear on DH (needs around 35% boon duration from diviner gear on all 3 with 15% from fractal potions for a total of around 50%) but that automatically reduces damage they do and still lacks the utility from FB.

    You could replace the BS though for an additional dps in any situation. Just need to make sure enough cc is still available.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    I said Soulbeast
    Who cares the utility of Fb if you have (harrier) ventari Ren ?
    I said soulbeast
    You have29-32sec of quickness without mistlock, for 34sec CD with alacrity. You don't need perma quickness. You can have 100% uptime with mistlock.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    I said Soulbeast
    Who cares the utility of Fb if you have harrier ventari Ren ?
    I said soulbeast
    You have29-32sec of quickness without mistlock, for 34sec CD with alacrity. you don't need perma quickness. You can have 100% uptime with mistlock.

    You have 24 (8x3) seconds of quickness base and around 27-28 seconds with fractal potions (assuming 15% bd from potions) on a 36 second cool down with permanent alacrity (45x.8). Yes, permanent quickness would not be needed in many encounters, especially with pre-stacking still if desired you would have to use diviner gear or increase agony resistance.

    You still lose the utility of Firebrand.

    Meta Renegade doesn't use ventari but assassins and renegade for optimal damage. Sure you could go heal renegade but then lose out on more offensive buffs. Also FB utility is not restricted to the renegades energy system. While Renegade comes with a ton of utility, it is performance locked at some point, especially when keeping up permanent alacrity and camping ventari.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    You take more AR, as people already do.
    If you play without PS war or FB you want to take LL instead of RR, so you'll need ventari to keep perma alacrity + you'll need the elite CC, the cleanse.
    AP is 150 ferocity which is 3 to 4% DPS; does you want 25 mights or 3~4% ? And so we talk about meta power comp or meta one healer comp ? See, it's not clear for everyone.
    What utlities does FB bring that are so important ?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    You take more AR, as people already do.
    If you play without PS war or FB you want to take LL instead of RR, so you'll need ventari to keep perma alacrity + you'll need the elite CC, the cleanse.
    AP is 150 ferocity which is 3 to 4% DPS; does you want 25 mights or 3~4% ? And so we talk about meta power comp or meta one healer comp ? See, it's not clear for everyone.
    What utlities does FB bring that are so important ?

    I don't know, you brought up the idea of bringing 3 DH. Which composition are you referring to? Obviously the top tier meta composition is built around no healer, so if we are talking ventari, we are already talking not top tier but healer composition.

    In a healer comp FB (as power quickness) provides additional safety for bad play in form of stability on demand, resistance on demand, reflects (which are not energy based), aegis and fury. As healer superior healing and permanent protection.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    So the top tier meta should still play chrono+dps. No run prove that power Fb-Ren is uber, it's a lie, FB-Ren is only better in 1healer comp because druid is useless in 5-man except for healing.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    In a healer comp FB (as power quickness) provides additional safety for bad play in form of stability on demand, resistance on demand, reflects (which are not energy based), aegis and fury. As healer superior healing and permanent protection.

    DH
    Cleanse /ventari
    "feel my wrath"
    DH F3
    Renegade

    The comp works, you might win/lose some 5-6k in the all somewhere but it works as intended.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    So the top tier meta should still play chrono+dps. No run prove that power Fb-Ren is uber, it's a lie, FB-Ren is only better in 1healer comp because druid is useless in 5-man except for healing.

    Sure, if you have dps which provide might and fury.

    Chrono+x comp has:

    • the benefit of using 1 less slot for quickness and alacrity
    • requires 1 slot for might and fury or needs these boons among other dps (which might alter rotations)
    • chrono skips

    Renebrand comp has:

    • Renegade based unique party damage buffs with permanent alacrity and might and some sustain even as power
    • Firebrand permanent quickness and fury
    • sacrifice 1 additional slot for quickness+alacrity on support builds

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

    In a healer comp FB (as power quickness) provides additional safety for bad play in form of stability on demand, resistance on demand, reflects (which are not energy based), aegis and fury. As healer superior healing and permanent protection.

    DH
    Cleanse /ventari
    "feel my wrath"
    Renegade

    Yes, and once you find me a Renegade who can do everything at once without energy limitations and DHs who do the same dps when bringing utility skills or having to press additional buttons, we can talk.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.
    One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.
    One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

    Astri is not the only fight where reflects might be of use especially with the new instabilities nor is it the only fractal where reflects are useful.

    Yes, 3 DH can replace a FB if all you do is bring the FB for quickness. For any other dps, you need FB and fury. So we are talking tailor built composition, in which case you can skip the healer all together and run Renebrand or 3 DH, Soulbeast and support Renegade. The moment you want to bring a bannerslave, you can't bring 3 DH. Which means that for a static which can make the most use of bs, 3 DH is uninteresting again (since we'll assume the Soulbeast is a given).

    See, I can pick and chose tailor cut situations too.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    And why not Chrono+ren ?

    Edit* it was just a troll I don't care about 3 DH (still, it works (and you gave perma fury, stop arguing against)) It's just pointless to argue about chrono/druid vs Ren/FB in one healer comp as you can "pick and chose tailor cut situations" for both.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.
    One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

    Soulbeast elite is a lot of dps. Slb is also better for art reflects. Play Chrono + 3 dps with We bleed fire, afflicted and birds and then tell me you really want to play that daily.
    A lot of fractals are just pure aids with the new instabs and no healer.
    Rene + FB has higher boss dps. Why would it be slower on something thats not cliffside, harpies or underground? Thats the only fractals a weaver can't skip. We bleed fire + frailty and a weaver gets almost oneshot by the orbs. It's just not enjoyable without any source of healing like the kalla elite.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.
    One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

    Soulbeast elite is a lot of dps. Slb is also better for art reflects. Play Chrono + 3 dps with We bleed fire, afflicted and birds and then tell me you really want to play that daily.
    A lot of fractals are just pure aids with the new instabs and no healer.
    Rene + FB has higher boss dps. Why would it be slower on something thats not cliffside, harpies or underground? Thats the only fractals a weaver can't skip. We bleed fire + frailty and a weaver gets almost oneshot by the orbs. It's just not enjoyable without any source of healing like the kalla elite.

    I don't know, may be DPS can change skills too and take reflect, can dodge... look crazy, "adapt to situation" wow, sounds bad.
    And no, this is a lie. You don't have higher DPS with Ren/Fb + 2 DPS than Chrono+3DPS. Or you're talking about 1 healer comp, and so ? You want to force people to delete their druid and chrono ?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Wall is way more DPS on astri than the sword spirits. It doesn't take more fingers to press on the same key, but for wall instead of the spirit.
    One DH can take the shout or hallowed ground; + 3 DH means perma retialation, no need for fury !!

    Soulbeast elite is a lot of dps. Slb is also better for art reflects. Play Chrono + 3 dps with We bleed fire, afflicted and birds and then tell me you really want to play that daily.
    A lot of fractals are just pure aids with the new instabs and no healer.
    Rene + FB has higher boss dps. Why would it be slower on something thats not cliffside, harpies or underground? Thats the only fractals a weaver can't skip. We bleed fire + frailty and a weaver gets almost oneshot by the orbs. It's just not enjoyable without any source of healing like the kalla elite.

    I don't know, may be DPS can change skills too and take reflect, can dodge... look crazy, "adapt to situation" wow, sounds bad.
    And no, this is a lie. You don't have higher DPS with Ren/Fb + 2 DPS than Chrono+3DPS. Or you're talking about 1 healer comp, and so ? You want to force people to delete their druid and chrono ?

    This isn't about forcing anything. I certainly haven't deleted my chrono (certainly not with the amount of legendary gear she has as my main). It is a discussion which composition makes the most sense and yields which benefits. Chrono+druid isn't useless, it's not even bad or mediocre. It's a very good composition and will get everything done in the hand of semi decent players and perform admirably in the hands of very good players.

    The question is only: can a different comp excel in some areas? Me personally, I feel as though Renebrand is superior for a lot of reasons to druid+chrono currently for almost all skill levels of player. On top of which it is a lot safer and easier to play.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

    I don't know, may be DPS can change skills too and take reflect, can dodge... look crazy, "adapt to situation" wow, sounds bad.
    And no, this is a lie. You don't have higher DPS with Ren/Fb + 2 DPS than Chrono+3DPS. Or you're talking about 1 healer comp, and so ? You want to force people to delete their druid and chrono ?

    But how will that be better than fb + ren then if everyone replaces damage utilities with defense options. ? Diviner rene provides a lot of heal + protection. You don't get prot with a chrono anymore.
    Kills are faster with ren + fb. Records were done with that. Only exception are super short fights like siax (34sec) where you just stack dhs but still no chrono.
    Are you playing triple dps? Your posts look like you don't even use speedrun strats. You can't dodge everything with some of the new instabs. Fb + rene offers a ton of sustain while also having higher boss dps.
    Warrior can also have much higher dps with FB + rene because he doesn't have to stack much might and ren does the mechanics a warr would normally do.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

    I don't know, may be DPS can change skills too and take reflect, can dodge... look crazy, "adapt to situation" wow, sounds bad.
    And no, this is a lie. You don't have higher DPS with Ren/Fb + 2 DPS than Chrono+3DPS. Or you're talking about 1 healer comp, and so ? You want to force people to delete their druid and chrono ?

    But how will that be better than fb + ren then if everyone replaces damage utilities with defense options. ? Diviner rene provides a lot of heal + protection. You don't get prot with a chrono anymore.
    Kills are faster with ren + fb. Records were done with that. Only exception are super short fights like siax (34sec) where you just stack dhs but still no chrono.
    Are you playing triple dps? Your posts look like you don't even use speedrun strats. You can't dodge everything with some of the new instabs. Fb + rene offers a ton of sustain while also having higher boss dps.
    Warrior can also have much higher dps with FB + rene because he doesn't have to stack much might and ren does the mechanics a warr would normally do.

    My post was an interrogation about 3 DH+ren, not 3 DPS+chrono. Of course this wasn't about speedclear ...................
    DH doesn't lose that much to take wall, because spirit is 7-8% of dps, has cast time in your rotation and only viable (and very often not) if timed right with spear and a symbol. So you don't take sword of justice you don't really lose burst, just dps after minutes. But the point is to not take minutes to kill a boss, just seconds. Don't forget projectiles can increase significantly dps too, just look at soulbeast on Artsariv, it's like +15k in 0.001sec.
    Chrono has many builds viable to give 100% uptime (with mistlock), not only the "meta build" with ~60% BD for raids, chrono can take Feedback, chrono have phantasmal warden, chrono can give stab. Chrono can even heal your group and give aegis with Inspiration.
    Thief can take smoke screen, daredevil has a reflect in is AA chain. HoloPhoton Wall reflects projectiles. Soulbeast, tempest ...
    Domi chrono removes boons, Spb too, Holo too, Deadeye too.
    You want a list for condicleanse now ?
    Your interrogation is why Chrono+War+3DPS with ONE (if needed) utility skill per DPS would still give more DPS than 2 supports build in diviner ?? Really ?

    Of course if fight last longer, of course if you don't play with static, with coordination and you don't know how people react to aoes/attacks and placement, you would like good uptime of protection, healing, aegis, randomly reflects, etc ... But no, no; it's not world record guiness book with ren+fb.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8, 2019

    @Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:
    Domi chrono removes boons, Spb too, Holo too, Deadeye too.
    You want a list for condicleanse now ? our group and give aegis with Inspiration.
    Thief can take smoke screen, daredevil has a reflect in i
    Your interrogation is why Chrono+War+3DPS with ONE (if needed) utility skill per DPS would still give more DPS than 2 supports build in diviner ?? Really ?

    Only ren uses diviner. And yes. Ren + FB has even higher dps without a utility switch.
    I said that FB + Ren has higher dps all the time. Slb, Ren, Fb, Weaver, Warr. All the buffs

    Of course if fight last longer, of course if you don't play with static, with coordination and you don't know how people react to aoes/attacks and placement, you would like good uptime of protection, healing, aegis, randomly reflects, etc ... But no, no; it's not world record guiness book with ren+fb.

    Except that the fractal records were mostly done with fb + rene. Especially if you do them legit without wooden planks. There is lots of unpredictable stuff with the new instabs. Prot really helps there. Frailty + boon overload and weaver gets oneshotted without protection.