Tempest still trash level

[Emberheart.8426]

@Auburner.6945 said:The only thing this patch did imo is improving Tempest's 'GvG only' spot. Other than that, it did nothing in PvE/PvP. They mentioned further buffing, but taking over 4/5 months now, and still not being done with a final state is saddening, not to mention that core and weaver have been ditched from any updates.

Not an ele patch, it's a Tempest focused patch. If you focus on 1/3 only while fully ignoring the rest, then the outcome should be certain in a shorter time. The patch was a missed opportunity for ele players and not enough for Tempest mains given it was specifically for them. Yeah we got buffs, but it's not like Tempest wasn't already known for its burst heals prior to this patch; the problems of Tempest remain the same. It's like buffing up Riptide's healing number like crazy... will that change weaver's only struggling-to-be-viable - no, it's buffing up numbers that were never related to the main issue.

I respect the buff, but if it takes almost a year to come with one third of the profession to be viable, then I won't consider it a buff, also not an 'ele' buff.

It doesn't even make one third of the profession viable, because it only makes tempest better in WvW and perhaps PvE. The tempest buffs did nothing in PvP except add some insignificant boons to shouts and a small cleanse to wash the pain away. Both the tempest and weaver lines still need to be buffed slightly more in both abilities and traits. But ultimately, the only way to bring ele back to prominence is to focus on core ele.

There are many skills that need to be looked at, especially conjures. Most importantly there needs to be an ele rework involving all the core trait lines. They are severely outdated and have useless traits all over the place. If you look at all these tempest builds that we made here, it is mainly tempest and water that are the relevant trait lines. The third trait line can be fire, earth or arcane, but these trait lines do not offer much. This is especially true with fire and earth, which are only taken because of a single trait that has synergy with auras. You take smothering auras in fire or elemental shielding in air. Besides those traits, the entire trait lines are basically irrelevant.

[zencow.3651]

@"God.2708" said:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFEQFAWn0XqvkCM9XaFmKMxmBDmwhpDTLqAGRAYBUAKaiRgLgbWNsmWB-jlxDQBMb/BA8gAg3FE0RARlffUJIAV/JAwBw7vH4+7593f/93fvvf/9u/e3f/93LFgfzsA-w

Overload water -> 10 targets, 2 clears per pulse, 4 pulses. 80 Clears every 17s.Healing Rain -> 5 Targets -> 4 clears per pulse (regen + rune and skill + rune). 3 Pulses. 60 clears every 32sSwapping into water -> 5 Targets -> 2 clears -> 10 clears every 17sDodge rolling -> 5 Targets -> burn/chill + 1 clear -> 10-15 clears every 5sWindborne speed -> 5 targets -> immob/crip/chill + 1 clear -> 10-20 clears every 25sFlash Freeze -> 5 targets -> 2 clears -> 10 clears every 30sEle Bastion -> 5 targets -> 2 clears -> 10 clears every 30sSpike + frozen ground -> 5 Targets -> 2 clears -> 10 clears every 24s

From overload water and healing rain alone you are putting out almost 400 clears a minute or 6 condi clears a second.Can go to tempestous aria over invig torrents and not lose much in the way of clears and get better coverage on your heals.

If you think there is a build in the game that can match the above your crazy. 10 Target caps are broken, they are why scourges are so absurd in WvW. Overload water by itself basically matches the total clears a firebrand could hope to put out.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"God.2708" said:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFEQFAWn0XqvkCM9XaFmKMxmBDmwhpDTLqAGRAYBUAKaiRgLgbWNsmWB-jlxDQBMb/BA8gAg3FE0RARlffUJIAV/JAwBw7vH4+7593f/93fvvf/9u/e3f/93LFgfzsA-w

Overload water -> 10 targets, 2 clears per pulse, 4 pulses. 80 Clears every 17s.Healing Rain -> 5 Targets -> 4 clears per pulse (regen + rune and skill + rune). 3 Pulses. 60 clears every 32sSwapping into water -> 5 Targets -> 2 clears -> 10 clears every 17s

From overload water and healing rain alone you are putting out almost 400 clears a minute or 6 condi clears a second.Can go to tempestous aria over invig torrents and not lose much in the way of clears and get better coverage on your heals.

If you think there is a build in the game that can match the above your crazy. 10 Target caps are broken, they are why scourges are so absurd in WvW. Overload water by itself basically matches the total clears a firebrand could hope to put out.

Do your math properly....and......swap into water is one trait..water reduction trait is another...good joke though xd

His maths isn't wrong there, he's using Arcane so Swapping to Water will give regen which procs regen/Cleansing Water which procs Antitoxin.His maths is wrong on Healing Rain though, the rune only applies +1 condi cleanse instead of +2 for each of pulse of regen/Cleansing Water and Healing Rain's innate remove.Overload water also does a bit more from Cleansing Water since he forgot to account for the regen at the end but I can't remember whether the regen occurs on the last pulse of Water Overload wherein Antitoxin doesn't apply additionally or slightly after which it does.

[zencow.3651]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@meb.6285 said:

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:@Dahir and @"Acyk.9671

Clear more than this pls :

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQBbUNE2IM4NEUSIsrlVAIBsHQPoNUA-w

PLS

Talk is cheap! Post this legendary build of your and let's make the math

NOTE

Do not come here now trying to put words in other people mouths : "heals and cleanses far more than FB"....so come and prove it!

P.Sfor all those using those obnoxious "L2P" comments...my ingame name is written in clear letters so come and show me how to play , I guess after 8k hrs of which 6k spent in pvp surely I don't know how to use ele outside fireball 1 spam in queensdale

I don't know what they are running but I assume something like this would provide the optimal condi cleansing for tempest.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vFEQFAWn0Xqvk+L9XaFmKMxBTDmwhpDTLFAWwAoBEAcHtp2ZLxSoKMJB-jlxDQBQU5HAV/BAPIA4dBBdEfUJIz2fIAwBw7vH4+7593f/93fvvf/9u/e3f/93LFgfzsA-w

I have not tested this yet, so I cannot truly vouch for its effectiveness but I thought that I should post it anyway since I doubt the people you quoted will be posting builds any time soon.

You can swap soothing power for powerful aura and get some of the adept aura traits for slightly more cleansing, but I have a hunch that soothing power ends up being better. At least from what I can see, due to the recent changes to water overload being 10 targets, and now tempestuous aria making shouts target 10, you may be able to get equivalent condi cleanse to a firebrand that is spending all the tome pages on condi cleansing, provided that you water overload and shout off CD. This is without antitoxin runes btw. If you use antitoxin runes, tempest benefits way more, as you rely more on a lot of cleanses that only cleanse a single condition per target, or ones that pulse cleansing. In addition to your more common cleanses, windborne speed and stop, drop and roll should also trigger antitoxin rune if you have the right conditions on you or your allies to cleanse. You also have the benefit of having a higher radius on most of your cleanses as shouts are all 600 and water overload is 360.

Now PvP is a different beast. All these changes that made skills affect 10 targets are worthless there and tempest is completely outclassed. Tempests may need some buffs to their alternative trait choices that will affect only 5 targets, but buffs are also desperately needed on core ele because the tempest trait line cannot carry a PvP build all by itself.

You're missing the key trait that pulls it all together - Soothing Mist. Healing Rain then clears a metric kitten-ton of condis, and any skill putting out regen clears 2 from each player. I wasn't joking when I said it'll clear 5-10x as many condis as FB. Before the balance patch I'd routinely clear 200-400 condis in 2 minute fights. 600+ in longer keep fights.

I think you mean cleansing water. I considered putting that in there but is it truly worth the healing that you sacrifice from soothing power? All the skills that I can think of that provide regen will already cleanse condis with the build that I posted. The regen will give them 1 more condi cleanse per target per pulse each. Now I may be wrong here on how antitoxin runes work, but I am under the impression that they will cleanse 1 additional condition per pulse of whatever cleanse skill you use. So if you add more cleanse by regen, you are not truly adding more antitoxin rune procs. Overload water, healing rain and flash freeze will all cleanse you already without the regen cleanse, which means that you already get the antitoxin rune proc.

Now if the antitoxin rune can proc twice per pulse of the skill due to the regen, disregard what I said. But I'm not sure if it works that way looking at the wording.

Edit: Even though I seriously doubt that you will get more antitoxin procs, getting cleanses from regen is quite good, especially with overload water. On paper you get another 120 cleanses per minute only from using water overload off CD. Healing rain and flash freeze add a few more. In the end I think you will want to spec either cleansing water or soothing power, depending on if you want that bit of extra cleanse or more healing.

You are correct regarding Antitoxin only ever applying once per pulse.Cleansing Water ends up inferior to Powerful Auras since you can share Sunspot/Magnetic Aura/other weapon auras for more cleanse/Elemental Bastion proc heals but Soothing Mist is still the best thing to run if things drag out.

[Morphine JJang.7985]

On behalf of your beloved server WSR, can you like... not? Maybe spend an hour of your 8k hours in GW2 with your head out your butt

The firebrand build you posted isn’t even great, you really believe in this? It’s kinda embarrassing. Highly doubt you are contributing to our KDR lmaooo

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Big issue you still don't have cleric or minstrel, nor antitoxin etc runes in PvP. So with my tempest if I equip shouts i'm still lacking of toughness/ vitality and "panic skills" to support my mates.I tried support tempest last night, litteraly useless. I'm better with a power build like air-arcane or air-water or with weaver ... or with a FB.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

Somehow I cannot imagine in wvw tempest being unplayable and having surivial issues on minstrel stats when I have no issues running maruder staff weaver. Maybe it just me but I believe wvw makes so many ele build viable in comparison to raids or pvp thanks to food, big variety of stat combos and runes.

In case of pvp tempest is a bit better but still not competitive - you won't be able to push with it for legend rank or get spot ATm team but it's playable in ranked if you are experienced pvp player. At least that something for those bored with sw/d weaver.

[supreme.3602]

8 minute fight. I left combat and went on top again.

[Simo.6819]

:sweat_smile: Let`s see what this guy has to say now :)

[meb.6285]

@Simo.6819 said::sweat_smile: Let`s see what this guy has to say now :)

I don't think we're changing this guy's mind unless Tempest gets tons of stability and aegis applications. He just wants another Firebrand.

[apharma.3741]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

8 minute fight. I left combat and went on top again.

Those firebrands make me sad. This is why we lose fights, people don't pull their heads out of their backsides and use skills properly. Just F2 skill 5 off cool down would give more cleanses than those FBs.

[Sugar Min.5834]

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:You do realize that Firebrand is garbage at ACTUAL healing people.

If you think the numbers Firebrand can push out are high..... then you never played a proper healing build.

Tempest outhealed Firebrand before the patch by a huge margin.

L2P issue.

Not just L2P issue, L2build issue too.

Just because Tempest cannot cleanse more than FB (and again this is TC's opinion) that makes her trash in WvW? Good point : D

I have been playing nothing but healing tempest in WvW for more than four years and always running with squad. And by the end of most run, most time players whispered me thankful words for my heals. And this is even before the 10 player buff update.

Probably TC is referring to PvP and thinking WvW is same as PvP? Or TC tried out Tempest support in WvW and got owned by Scrouges and Condi Mems hence the rage.

Definitely L2BP issue.

[cgMatt.5162]

tbh I would not build for condi clear if a good Scrapper is in the squad, otherwise you'll be denying a ton of boon conversion.

[steki.1478]

@cgMatt.5162 said:tbh I would not build for condi clear if a good Scrapper is in the squad, otherwise you'll be denying a ton of boon conversion.

1 scrapper cant target whole squad. Tempest also has much higher radius so scrapper can stay on top of commander while tempest stays as a mid/backline healer.

[Ruufio.1496]

@steki.1478 said:

@cgMatt.5162 said:tbh I would not build for condi clear if a good Scrapper is in the squad, otherwise you'll be denying a ton of boon conversion.

1 scrapper cant target whole squad. Tempest also has much higher radius so scrapper can stay on top of commander while tempest stays as a mid/backline healer.

@steki.1478 said:

@cgMatt.5162 said:tbh I would not build for condi clear if a good Scrapper is in the squad, otherwise you'll be denying a ton of boon conversion.

1 scrapper cant target whole squad. Tempest also has much higher radius so scrapper can stay on top of commander while tempest stays as a mid/backline healer.

This is true. Scrapper is better in small scale for this.

[cgMatt.5162]

@steki.1478 said:

@cgMatt.5162 said:tbh I would not build for condi clear if a good Scrapper is in the squad, otherwise you'll be denying a ton of boon conversion.

1 scrapper cant target whole squad. Tempest also has much higher radius so scrapper can stay on top of commander while tempest stays as a mid/backline healer.I agree about the radius and target cap, which makes it easier to land, but the squad is not the target per se. It is positioning where the condi/corruption happens on the squad that makes it much more effective in organized play. Scrapper should be 1 per 25 players and Tempest is probably going to be 1 per 10 players now. Tempest would be my pug pick for the targetting because Scrapper is (imo) boring without voice comms.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its one of those classes that's good to take one for every 15-20 ppl or so (not taking target cap change into account).

pretty sure fb heals cant compete with scrapper, tempest, and revenant.

[zengara.8301]

@"Dahir.4158" said:

8 minute fight. I left combat and went on top again.

Could you link a build? I completely believe that Temp is a viable Condi cleanse/healer. But with the 2 builds that I got abovehttp://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vFEQFAWn0XqvkCM9XaFmKMxmBDmwhpDTLqAGRAYBUAKaiRgLgbWNsmWB-jlxDQBMb/BA8gAg3FE0RARlffUJIAV/JAwBw7vH4+7593f/93fvvf/9u/e3f/93LFgfzsA-whttp://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vFEQFAWn0Xqvk+L9XaFmKMxBTDmwhpDTLFAWwAoBEAcHtp2ZLxSoKMJB-jlxDQBQU5HAV/BAPIA4dBBdEfUJIz2fIAwBw7vH4+7593f/93fvvf/9u/e3f/93LFgfzsA-w

It really doesnt seem so? Or am I missing something here?

[Auburner.6945]

For maximum cleanse it would most likely be Fire/Water. Take Cleansing Waters instead of Soothing Power, this way you will cleanse from staff more condition, from water overload many conditions and Flash Freeze (20 conditions max/flash freeze), all with Tempestuous Aria for the massive condi cleanse provided from auras. Soothing Waters would be more heals but it still relies on camping water, you would need to sacrifice more healing for more condi cleanse.

[steki.1478]

@Auburner.6945 said:For maximum cleanse it would most likely be Fire/Water. Take Cleansing Waters instead of Soothing Power, this way you will cleanse from staff more condition, from water overload many conditions and Flash Freeze (20 conditions max/flash freeze), all with Tempestuous Aria for the massive condi cleanse provided from auras. Soothing Waters would be more heals but it still relies on camping water, you would need to sacrifice more healing for more condi cleanse.

Powerful aura will cleanse even more since you have lots of personal aura procs. Shouts would potentially proc cleansing traits twice on same 5 people because they would technically receive the same aura twice. Regen is not very common with water/fire, but auras are due to sunspot.

[Auburner.6945]

@steki.1478 said:

@Auburner.6945 said:For maximum cleanse it would most likely be Fire/Water. Take Cleansing Waters instead of Soothing Power, this way you will cleanse from staff more condition, from water overload many conditions and Flash Freeze (20 conditions max/flash freeze), all with Tempestuous Aria for the massive condi cleanse provided from auras. Soothing Waters would be more heals but it still relies on camping water, you would need to sacrifice more healing for more condi cleanse.

Powerful aura will cleanse even more since you have lots of personal aura procs. Shouts would potentially proc cleansing traits twice on same 5 people because they would technically receive the same aura twice. Regen is not very common with water/fire, but auras are due to sunspot.

Since this whole update, I am missing on lots of things REEEEEE.

[meb.6285]

Fire will give more cleanse, but Arcane gives the amazing Geysers. If your group isn't dying, Fire would be better. If you're in the other 99% of groups, the Geysers are likely more beneficial to your group. Something like this:

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQFAWn0XCFYiVYCOYCcYiFVAzNr+VTrEBgFQBo4DEByAA-jlxDQBMb/BIq87jKBh3FA0BAQ1fAwDAgUA+NzC-w

[Arheundel.6451]

@Morphine JJang.7985 said:On behalf of your beloved server WSR, can you like... not? Maybe spend an hour of your 8k hours in GW2 with your head out your butt

The firebrand build you posted isn’t even great, you really believe in this? It’s kinda embarrassing. Highly doubt you are contributing to our KDR lmaooo

@Morphine JJang.7985 said:On behalf of your beloved server WSR, can you like... not? Maybe spend an hour of your 8k hours in GW2 with your head out your butt

The firebrand build you posted isn’t even great, you really believe in this? It’s kinda embarrassing. Highly doubt you are contributing to our KDR lmaooo

My time has been well spent...seen as I tend to know what I am talking about...which clearly you don't...the build I posted is the PvP variant of firebrand which get used by others in wvw also, it's a build that bring people up to the MAT finals I believe and certainly not something you seem to know about.

[Arheundel.6451]

@meb.6285 said:

@"Simo.6819" said::sweat_smile: Let`s see what this guy has to say now :)

I don't think we're changing this guy's mind unless Tempest gets tons of stability and aegis applications. He just wants another Firebrand.

I don't think you read posts before making yours..the eng in the following message is quite clear :

I have different ideology about what should be called a "balance" class, I will never accept something that relies on gear or other gimmicks to be competitive, I shouldn't be afraid of every single small nerf coming my way , afraid of going down the trash can every single patch...on ranger I am never afraid of any nerfs because the base concept of ranged combat with evasion cannot be taken away no matter how many nerfs you apply......

And by the way..I am not asking for tons of stability and aegis or for Firebrand 2.0, where the hell did I say that? I made a comparison between a balanced traitline and a trash one...don't put words into my mouth

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Mr Godlike.6098" said:Somehow I cannot imagine in wvw tempest being unplayable and having surivial issues on minstrel stats when I have no issues running maruder staff weaver. Maybe it just me but I believe wvw makes so many ele build viable in comparison to raids or pvp thanks to food, big variety of stat combos and runes.

In case of pvp tempest is a bit better but still not competitive - you won't be able to push with it for legend rank or get spot ATm team but it's playable in ranked if you are experienced pvp player. At least that something for those bored with sw/d weaver.

Unranked and silver/gold is not something I consider worth of attention..you can run core necro and still prevail at that level...and again I repeat : people should read before posting...."Somehow I cannot imagine in wvw tempest being unplayable and having surivial issues on minstrel stats" and that's what I call a gimmick and something I clearly stated to hate

[Arheundel.6451]

@Mil.3562 said:

@DanAlcedo.3281 said:You do realize that Firebrand is garbage at ACTUAL healing people.

If you think the numbers Firebrand can push out are high..... then you never played a proper healing build.

Tempest outhealed Firebrand before the patch by a huge margin.

L2P issue.

Not just L2P issue, L2build issue too.

Just because Tempest cannot cleanse more than FB (and again this is TC's opinion) that makes her trash in WvW? Good point : D

I have been playing nothing but healing tempest in WvW for more than four years and always running with squad. And by the end of most run, most time players whispered me thankful words for my heals. And this is even before the 10 player buff update.

Probably TC is referring to PvP and thinking WvW is same as PvP? Or TC tried out Tempest support in WvW and got owned by Scrouges and Condi Mems hence the rage.

Definitely L2BP issue.

..... learn to read and play pls.....the tempest you run in wvw is a gimmick which relies on core traits for most of the job , the spec itself brings almost nothing to the table , the trait line itself doesn't make ele useful anywhere outside the gimmick PvE group setting with busted tanky stats......how many eles can you fit in a tempest box ? - all of them it seems

A PvE gimmick cannot be compared to Firebrand which can be run with harrier stats for roaming - minstrel for support and other variants like condi firebrand , it can be run in PvP with great success.....that's what I call balance design...not the healing rain staff monkey build...a try hard spec as I mentioned in the OP which you didn't read