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Deadeye Nerf - Frustrated Player


Blur.3465

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We all know about the nerf to the 3s stealth, some people praise it, some people hate it and I count myself among those who hate the nerf a lot.

I come here to vent out a bit too, simply because I never felt so frustrated in pvp.Before the changes the flow of Deadeye in PvP felt a lot better. I at least had a way to escape. (Mind you, I am using the Sniper rifle build for pvp)The 3s stealth provided me a means to escape my certain death when enemies would surround me. It also helped me time my stealth attack, without missing out on it due to evading as many attacks as I can.Now it's almost impossible to use a stealth attack unless you are somewhere waaaay out of sight and able to land a stealth attack.

I have to say, it was a needless change. 2s would've been better instead of 1s.

For two days I am struggling greatly in pvp as Deadeye because of these changes.

My biggest issue now is that I can't attack almost anyone unless it's a squishy Ele. All professions have endless blocks, immunities and escapes before I can even deem myself useful.I primarily write this due to how frustrated I am because of how Engineers nail me to the ground without putting any effort!Today it was impossible for me to be of any use to the team with either capping the points or attacking.Engineers are impossible to counter and I may as well just stand and do nothing.

Match today:

Engineer had endless shield blocks which absolutely rendered my attacks useless.Knocksbacks, good evades, great healing, shield, immunity.I manage to down the engineer...what happens? Engineer knocks me back and ... resurrects, like warrior's vengeance???Engineer downs me and runs away while Engi's little gadget finishes me off like player finisher.Honestly...this absolutely never happened to me in PvP before and I can't help but wonder...what the hell just happened? Our entire team was being killed and massacred by two engineers.

Mind you I have never played an Engineer in PvP, but this is outright crazy.

This makes me bring up a question:Why nerf Deadeye's stealth which helped us at least stay alive? We are meant to be silent snipers who are going out of sight and trying to keep distance from their foes. Now it's impossible to escape.With this we at least should've got some compensation in terms of defense for Rifle Deadeye.Why are we being nerfed instead of professions which have endless counters to so many mechanics/skills?

I'm sorry I just had to vent out a bit. This truly pulled my strings and made me just want to quit entirely. x_x'

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You can't think of any reason Anet nerfed stealth? have you played anything BUT thief in PVP? Have you ever played against a stealth thief as a non-thief player?

In any game I've ever played, classes that can stealth and burst kill at their leisure are just cancer, and this game is no exception.

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The perma-stealth was a huge issue especially in WvW. Having said that, the problem with the DE nerfs was it was constant and there were no compensation. DJ is now blockable, Rifle 3's initiative was increased. Now dodge stealth is 1s. Meanwhile, powercreep to Tempest and Scrapper is happening.

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@Obtena.7952 said:You can't think of any reason Anet nerfed stealth? have you played anything BUT thief in PVP? Have you ever played against a stealth thief as a non-thief player?

In any game I've ever played, classes that can stealth and burst kill at their leisure are just cancer, and this game is no exception.

Honestly I hated PvP up until Deadeye got introduced, which is the concept I finally liked.To answer your question: No. I have not played any other class in PvP except Thief. (A Necromancer when the game came out but I soon quit PvP and focused primarily on PvE)Now that I finally found some fun in PvP I stumbled upon this nerf which absolutely crippled Deadeye's survivability and just made me not have fun anymore.

And I agree @DragonSlayer.1087 some compensation was needed for this, instead I feel that Deadeye now falls behind many, many professions in normal PvP matches. I find myself unable to escape/survive/cap points. The 1s on stealth is horrible, primarily due to revealed debuff later too.There's no 'perma' stealth uptime in normal PvP matches where you are constantly on a fast paced battle and in need to react really fast.I don't like WvW nor do I play it, I speak mainly of normal PvP matches. This is pure madness with Deadeye's lack of survival now... :/

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Well, I think it's safe to say your perspective here is limited and biased then. Sure we all like to get the easy, cheap wins, some more than others. But like I said, that's not what makes for a good competitive environment. If you want to win on Deadeye, your going to have to adapt, which is expected for any player worth his salt in MMO competitive game modes. Having to adjust to game changes happens at some point to everyone; it's inevitable.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Well, I think it's safe to say your perspective here is limited and biased then. Sure we all like to get the easy wins but ... like I said, that's not what makes for a good competitive environment. If you want to win on Deadeye, your going to have to adapt, which is expected for any player worth his salt in MMO competitive game modes.

There's no need to be so sharp?I'd like you to re-read me.Deadeye needed something to compesnate for the lack of stealth now. A buff to survival, something to help the Deadeye stay away. It's a bloody sniper, we have to stay back somehow and avoid our enemies.Now it's really hard to keep distance from melee attackers and stay alive, especially with the massive buffs to Engineers now which are absolutely anti-rifle Deadeye now.

I never said I wanted an easy win, I just want a way to be able to survive and not rendered useless in team fights. Every profession has some good buffs and counters to specific mechanics, Deadeye falls behind a lot now.

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I don't think that makes sense ... Anet balancing the game isn't a zero sum game. You don't (and shouldn't) get compensated for OP effects that get nerfed. The overall general health of PVP/WvW has been improved because of these changes.

If Deadeye falls A LOT behind now because of some stealth changes, that simply indicates stealth was as broken a mechanic as everyone suspected to begin with. I still don't think we have enough time for the meta to settle in to conclude Deadeye is severely deficient and to be honest, based on your limited PVP experience, I'm not sure you would be the objective voice of reason to provide it.

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@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think that makes sense ... Anet balancing the game isn't a zero sum game. You don't (and shouldn't) get compensated for OP effects that get nerfed. The overall general health of PVP/WvW has been improved because of these changes.

If Deadeye falls A LOT behind now because of some stealth changes, that simply indicates stealth was as broken a mechanic as everyone suspected to begin with. I still don't think we have enough time for the meta to settle in to conclude Deadeye is severely deficient and to be honest, based on your limited PVP experience, I'm not sure you would be the objective voice of reason to provide it.

Obtena...you really like to argue and go absolutely offensive don't you?

That said...Rifle Deadeye thief...what chance does the Rifle Deadeye thief stand against many professions now? In normal PvP matches, not WvW.It's hard to keep distance now, the evade gun skill should've at least been a bit buffed to provide us with solid escape if anything.A lot of professions counter our attacks with decent blocks, healing, immunities and evades, which ends up starving us off of our initiative; it also messes up the Mark which starves you off of Malice.I am not sure if you are familiar with Deadeye's mechanics, but right now it does play a bit crippled due to lack of escape and proper survival.I am fine with nerfing stealth as long as Rifle gains some decent buff to keep us alive a wee bit longer.

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not every spec is in a good/viable spot.many people do not like to fight against the old rifle deadeye, so thats a reason for it to become more of a 'fun' build. play it if you enjoy it, but dont expect optimal results.it will be easier to get better results on a more efficient spec, if you have a basic understanding of the games mechanics. so you may try some builds that are better in current meta if contributing is an important factor to your fun.

i also did love to play old rifle deadeye. but since patch i only been playing core s/d (spvp) and scrapper (WvW), because i simply dont want to play with rifle in its current state.

@Blur.3465 said:It's hard to keep distance now, the evade gun skill should've at least been a bit buffed to provide us with solid escape if anything.wish that skill actually was an evade.

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I just came back from a month or so break to check on the patch:Sweet! New WvW mounts!Sweet! Nerfs to Mesmer! FINALLYOh another heavy nerf to deadeye. Guess I can quit until they figure out what they want here.

Having played both thief and non-thief in PvP, I can easily say rifle-based Deadeye is the hardest build I've ever played. Most other classes, I can wander into a combat and groove my way through the fight, kill some people, defend or res a teammate, hold a point etc. No can do with rifle. Most of those tasks are impossible. When your opponent isn't distracted, they can and will take you apart. You need to mete out your defensive skills very carefully as each one is a precious resource. We don't have blocks, we don't have barrier, we don't have invluns or special evades, clones or pets. All we have is damage, distance and stealth. If you use them VERY well, you MIGHT kill your opponent 1v1. A duo will just stomp you and move on to your other 4 teammates. How is this weapon supposed to be fun? Why should I even bother now? I admit I'm far from perfect, but one shouldn't have to be PERFECT to play a spec.

Also, zero utility in WvW zerg STILL.

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@Blur.3465 said:I primarily write this due to how frustrated I am because of how Engineers nail me to the ground without putting any effort!It has always been that way for thieves with engineers. Can't remember any time in the last 6 years when engineers could not sustain a thief. I am saying sustain and not kill because every thief can run away when picking the right utilities.

So your rant is more about one of your since forever counters (the other one is guardian) and less about the stealth on dodge mechanic (which btw. shouldn't even exist).

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Accept that deadeye is complete garbage now. Accept that only way to play now is core sd or dp. There is no other way. I feel your pain because i played only deadeye. But hey, if we dont find alternative we dont have to play gw2 any more. There is chess, armada 2, apex and so on.

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I completely agree with you guys.Deadeye is far from perfect and far from easiest spec to play.There are many flaws surrounding it and now these flaws will come to light even more with the lack of 'escape'/survivability that offered 3s stealth with dodge.Mark will get messed up sometimes if it gets blocked or if the target simply runs away. Sure you can refresh it but same thing can happen again, which leaves the Deadeye in a bad position with no malice gained at all.Intiative gets spent way too fast and it regenerates super slow in PvP; so basically when we fire off our skill 3 and if enemy blocks it or evades...we are starved of our initiative.Our Stealth attack often gets blocked and countered as well.We sometimes end up not attacking our main target if it's crowded. Rifle will always hit the first person, so if someone's 'in front' of your target you'll hit that person instead and not generate any malice again.

We have a clunky mechanic that can be countered by way too many factors, we have no proper self-defense, we have no AoE, we have no 'clones', no pets, no immunities, we have no survivability options, no condition damage, we have to kneel and go immobile if we want increased range and damage, our single target damage gets countered very easily due to it being projectiles and we have no means of escape now unless we ditch some of our useful utility skills and replace it with stealth...So Deadeye Rifle was far from being perfect and an experienced player will know how to counter us very easily, but at least we had a way to escape with the 3s stealth. Now you can't even make a single step and the enemy is already upon you.

People complain about perma stealth for Rifle Deadeye yet d/p or d/d Deadeye can still very much go perma stealth without issues and perform way better than Rifle.

Like I said, I am fine with the stealth nerf as long as Deadeye gains some buff for it, as right now it is a joke. You can't hold off on your own and in 1v1 you are pretty much doomed unless people don't know how to counter you.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@Blur.3465 said:I primarily write this due to how frustrated I am because of how Engineers nail me to the ground without putting any effort!It has always been that way for thieves with engineers. Can't remember any time in the last 6 years when engineers could not sustain a thief. I am saying sustain and not kill because every thief can run away when picking the right utilities.

So your rant is more about one of your since forever counters (the other one is guardian) and less about the stealth on dodge mechanic (which btw. shouldn't even exist).

I speak of the recently buffed Scrapper which is indeed proving to be a bane to almost every other profession now.I was fine with Engis before. You could actually ignore them and move on with other targets. This, however, is pure insanity now.A tool that 'finishes' you like player finisher? Shields, blocks, mobility, immunity, condi damage and when downed they can also resurrect again?No profession should be able to hold off 3-4 people on its own.Now I can't even ignore them because they are on me in blink of an eye and I have no ways to escape them if my shadow step is on cooldown. My 1s stealth is in no way useful now as I can't even make a single step away from enemy in 1s...and then there's the revealed debuff.

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@Blur.3465 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think that makes sense ... Anet balancing the game isn't a zero sum game. You don't (and shouldn't) get compensated for OP effects that get nerfed. The overall general health of PVP/WvW has been improved because of these changes.

If Deadeye falls A LOT behind now because of some stealth changes, that simply indicates stealth was as broken a mechanic as everyone suspected to begin with. I still don't think we have enough time for the meta to settle in to conclude Deadeye is severely deficient and to be honest, based on your limited PVP experience, I'm not sure you would be the objective voice of reason to provide it.

Obtena...you really like to argue and go absolutely offensive don't you?

That said...Rifle Deadeye thief...what chance does the Rifle Deadeye thief stand against many professions now? In normal PvP matches, not WvW.It's hard to keep distance now, the evade gun skill should've at least been a bit buffed to provide us with solid escape if anything.A lot of professions counter our attacks with decent blocks, healing, immunities and evades, which ends up starving us off of our initiative; it also messes up the Mark which starves you off of Malice.I am not sure if you are familiar with Deadeye's mechanics, but right now it does play a bit crippled due to lack of escape and proper survival.I am fine with nerfing stealth as long as Rifle gains some decent buff to keep us alive a wee bit longer.

I just think it's presumptuous for someone to come out this strong with so little experience. I don't doubt you are having the problems you are experiencing but the solution isn't going to be Anet compensating you; it never has been for anyone else. You get choice for a reason; to adapt. It sounds to me like you didn't explore the choices you have available to address some of your problems. You should, because that's why they exist.

If it's still trash, then it's trash; no all Especs excel in every game mode; some suck in some game modes. It's not like Thief is deficient in good builds for PVP.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't think that makes sense ... Anet balancing the game isn't a zero sum game. You don't (and shouldn't) get compensated for OP effects that get nerfed. The overall general health of PVP/WvW has been improved because of these changes.

If Deadeye falls A LOT behind now because of some stealth changes, that simply indicates stealth was as broken a mechanic as everyone suspected to begin with. I still don't think we have enough time for the meta to settle in to conclude Deadeye is severely deficient and to be honest, based on your limited PVP experience, I'm not sure you would be the objective voice of reason to provide it.

Obtena...you really like to argue and go absolutely offensive don't you?

That said...Rifle Deadeye thief...what chance does the Rifle Deadeye thief stand against many professions now? In normal PvP matches, not WvW.It's hard to keep distance now, the evade gun skill should've at least been a bit buffed to provide us with solid escape if anything.A lot of professions counter our attacks with decent blocks, healing, immunities and evades, which ends up starving us off of our initiative; it also messes up the Mark which starves you off of Malice.I am not sure if you are familiar with Deadeye's mechanics, but right now it does play a bit crippled due to lack of escape and proper survival.I am fine with nerfing stealth as long as Rifle gains some decent buff to keep us alive a wee bit longer.

I just think it's presumptuous for someone to come out this strong with so little experience. I don't doubt you are having the problems you are experiencing but the solution isn't going to be Anet compensating you; it never has been for anyone else. You get choice for a reason; to adapt. It sounds to me like you didn't explore the choices you have available to address some of your problems. You should, because that's why they exist.

If it's still trash, then it's trash; no all Especs excel in every game mode; some suck in some game modes. It's not like Thief is deficient in good builds for PVP.

Actually, thief is deficient in good builds for PvP. You basically have SD, and thats it. DP is bad, and the rest doesnt matter. Not to mention, even if DP werent bad, its ultimately just a shortbow 5 build. Thief has no build in PvP thats good at fighting. Deadeye, for better or for worse, was the only build that came close (mind you, it was still bad, but it was playable. Not sure it still is). And yes, the solution wouldve been compensation. When other classes and specs lost critical elements of their builds, they usually got compensation. Whether it was enough or not is a whole different debate.

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Compensation is one of many solutions ... and it's not one we see Anet provide. Better set your sights on something else.

I'm not saying Deadeye isn't in need of a buff, but it's not likely going to come in the form of compensation with the goal of getting it's status back for PVP. That's just not how we see things work in this game.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Compensation is one of many solutions ... and it's not one we see Anet provide. Better set your sights on something else.

I'm not saying Deadeye isn't in need of a buff, but it's not likely going to come in the form of compensation with the goal of getting it's status back for PVP. That's just not how we see things work in this game.

@Obtena.7952 said:Compensation is one of many solutions ... and it's not one we see Anet provide. Better set your sights on something else.

I'm not saying Deadeye isn't in need of a buff, but it's not likely going to come in the form of compensation with the goal of getting it's status back for PVP. That's just not how we see things work in this game.

Again, Anet has compensated for nerfs immideatly plenty of times before. It is something they do. Unfortunately, thief is a class that Anet doesnt seem to be very fond of, getting constant unneccessary (and in fact, counterproductive) nerfs for no reason. It seems they are adamant to make sure that if a thief gets into a 1v1 against another class, no matter how good the thief is, they are going to lose.

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@Blur.3465 said:

@Blur.3465 said:I primarily write this due to how frustrated I am because of how Engineers nail me to the ground without putting any effort!It has always been that way for thieves with engineers. Can't remember any time in the last 6 years when engineers could not sustain a thief. I am saying sustain and not kill because every thief can run away when picking the right utilities.

So your rant is more about one of your since forever counters (the other one is guardian) and less about the stealth on dodge mechanic (which btw. shouldn't even exist).

I speak of the recently buffed Scrapper which is indeed proving to be a bane to almost every other profession now.I was fine with Engis before. You could actually ignore them and move on with other targets. This, however, is pure insanity now.A tool that 'finishes' you like player finisher? Shields, blocks, mobility, immunity, condi damage and when downed they can also resurrect again?No profession should be able to hold off 3-4 people on its own.Now I can't even ignore them because they are on me in blink of an eye and I have no ways to escape them if my shadow step is on cooldown. My 1s stealth is in no way useful now as I can't even make a single step away from enemy in 1s...and then there's the revealed debuff.

Your description of Scrapper makes it clear you don't have the first idea about how scrappers work. Are they a bit over-buffed right now? Sure, but Sent is aware and already working on it. Instead of spouting nonsense though, perhaps actually put in a bit of effort to understand what you are talking about.

For instance, was this Scrapper running pistol or hammer? Most likely hammer, which makes me wonder where your condi damage comment comes from. As for those shield , blocks, and immunities, most are bringing 1 block from hammer, 1 projectile destruction dome from gyro toolbelt, and 1significant barrier from the same gyro.

From your description of this Scrapper, sounds like he ran with hammer. I highly doubt he sacrificed elixir gun, and from the sound of it he also took bulwark gyro. The ability to rez himself means he took elixir r as his 3rd utility, and threw the elixir at his feet before going down. This means that he did not take elixir s, meaning he has no immunity. Also, the tool that finishes you is simply the scrapper's class mechanic, the function gyro.

Just take a minute and check out metabattle.com, make an Engineer and toy with it in the mists. Make an attempt to understand something before ranting about if you want to be taken seriously.

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@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Blur.3465 said:I primarily write this due to how frustrated I am because of how Engineers nail me to the ground without putting any effort!It has always been that way for thieves with engineers. Can't remember any time in the last 6 years when engineers could not sustain a thief. I am saying sustain and not kill because every thief can run away when picking the right utilities.

So your rant is more about one of your since forever counters (the other one is guardian) and less about the stealth on dodge mechanic (which btw. shouldn't even exist).

I speak of the recently buffed Scrapper which is indeed proving to be a bane to almost every other profession now.I was fine with Engis before. You could actually ignore them and move on with other targets. This, however, is pure insanity now.A tool that 'finishes' you like player finisher? Shields, blocks, mobility, immunity, condi damage and when downed they can also resurrect again?No profession should be able to hold off 3-4 people on its own.Now I can't even ignore them because they are on me in blink of an eye and I have no ways to escape them if my shadow step is on cooldown. My 1s stealth is in no way useful now as I can't even make a single step away from enemy in 1s...and then there's the revealed debuff.

Your description of Scrapper makes it clear you don't have the first idea about how scrappers work. Are they a bit over-buffed right now? Sure, but Sent is aware and already working on it. Instead of spouting nonsense though, perhaps actually put in a bit of effort to understand what you are talking about.

For instance, was this Scrapper running pistol or hammer? Most likely hammer, which makes me wonder where your condi damage comment comes from. As for those shield , blocks, and immunities, most are bringing 1 block from hammer, 1 projectile destruction dome from gyro toolbelt, and 1significant barrier from the same gyro.

From your description of this Scrapper, sounds like he ran with hammer. I highly doubt he sacrificed elixir gun, and from the sound of it he also took bulwark gyro. The ability to rez himself means he took elixir r as his 3rd utility, and threw the elixir at his feet before going down. This means that he did not take elixir s, meaning he has no immunity. Also, the tool that finishes you is simply the scrapper's class mechanic, the function gyro.

Just take a minute and check out metabattle.com, make an Engineer and toy with it in the mists. Make an attempt to understand something before ranting about if you want to be taken seriously.

I can say what I saw, I don't need to know the exact names of skills the profession I never played in PvP uses.The Scrapper running the Hammer build, the other Engineer was running the immunity skill.

It is true they are a little over-buffed now, specifically as Engineer always seemed to be doing fine in PvP due to utilities and all the goodies it has in its arsenal.Now I don't see your point for being offensive and negative here to begin with? You have Engi knowledge, that's good, thanks for stating the names of skills and how it works; it answers how powerful and fun they are in PvP now and gives a clearer image on what they use to resurrect and finish you off without approaching you.

The whole point here is that Deadeye has nothing to defend itself with. I am fine with 0 stealth honestly, as long as we gain decent things to keep us alive and out of direct fight, a way to escape.

@MyPuppy.8970 Exactly. That's the point of sniper, only that now the sniper has no ways to keep distance when the fight heats up. Deadeye needs more things to keep distance from enemies. Stealth was one way of getting out of sight, but with that gone the Deadeye is stripped naked.It needs something to be a bit more viable in actual PvP matches.

Mind you, I understand the frustration the players get when they get sniped out of nowhere, instead of adding stealth the Deadeye should get some other means and tools of defense in PvP.It is the only playstyle I truly enjoy in PvP. I did play as Daredevil d/p and Deadeye d/d with permastealth and I did not like the style. I do not like melee in PvP and I prefer keeping my distance; Deadeye was exactly the style I liked, but it is a little difficult now to stay alive and get out of the heated fights.The lack of cleave/aoe is also bad and in multi-target fights you will fall behind; Initiative gets spent too easily and you find yourself auto attacking for a while until it piles up, it happens that you waste initiative if a player evades or blocks your attacks too.

As mentioned, for experienced players, Deadeye represents very little challenge if they know how it works, attacks can easily be evaded, blocked and Deadeye is a squish after that.I had no difficulties killing Rifle Deadeyes with my D/D Perma Stealth Deadeye build. They were my juiciest target along with Eles :P

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RIfle still works, go for revealed training to up the damage (if you did not ran it already)I love my thief, i play him as core S/D - i would play deadeye now in similar way, decapping and going for +1 on rifle. (+1 on rifle should be good, because range)

Toning down stealth length is a good way to lessen NPE we are often accused of.As long as shortbow#5 exsist i dont see us getting damage back :/

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After another PvP match run for daily today, this is the score I managed to achieve with Rifle Deadeye:

gw220.jpg

This is exactly what happens when the teams ignore Deadeye. I was untouched in the match and I literally had clear aim without anyone focusing me.Needless to say, we also had a good team but they had a stronger set-up than us.Regardless of stealth nerf people will still complain how 'OP' Deadeye is and ask for more nerfs. Had people focused me I would've been in a very bad spot; like in a couple of previous games where I had literally all teams chasing after me and killing me swiftly which frustrated me; but these people knew how to counter Deadeye.

It pretty much comes down to countering the Deadeye and knowing what to do. With the lack of stealth we are easy targets, but if we are untouched we will shine.

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@"Blur.3465" said:After another PvP match run for daily today, this is the score I managed to achieve with Rifle Deadeye:

gw220.jpg

This is exactly what happens when the teams ignore Deadeye. I was untouched in the match and I literally had clear aim without anyone focusing me.Needless to say, we also had a good team but they had a stronger set-up than us.Regardless of stealth nerf people will still complain how 'OP' Deadeye is and ask for more nerfs. Had people focused me I would've been in a very bad spot; like in a couple of previous games where I had literally all teams chasing after me and killing me swiftly which frustrated me; but these people knew how to counter Deadeye.

It pretty much comes down to countering the Deadeye and knowing what to do. With the lack of stealth we are easy targets, but if we are untouched we will shine.

Essentially you're saying that Deadeye is OP if your opponents are blind or bad at targeting, but folds when they actually interact with you. Saying you've got the best kill speed on goldfish isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of a build's balance.

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