If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Aracz.4702 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:Compare that with Charr:ghosts still activebrand very activeflame legion somewhat active

No?Ghosts are less active than before. Brand after Shatterer death is much less active than before. Flame Legion lost their emperor and they are now a numerous individual groups, who possibly event fight witch each other for powerThose Years ago, these problems were the cause why Charrs werent able to take Ebonhawke (still i douby they were going to take it- it was great shooting range). But now Legions dont have such a issues

Not... exactly. Granted, we haven't heard about most of these threads since 2014, but at that time:A single crypt's worth of ghosts had been exorcised- granted, a crypt that was well positioned for an attack on one of the charr's key settlements, but so far as we know, ghost activity elsewhere hasn't been impacted at all. It is possible that Rytlock's been repeating the ritual (while maintaining a firmer grip on his sword) during his off-time, but if so, we haven't heard anything about it.The Shatterer was never the driving force behind the Brand- it patrolled one stretch of it, but the real risk was the slow expansion of the Brand, which was also occurring in areas that the Shatterer never touched, coupled with the difficulty in crossing the corruption to reach the now isolated areas of eastern Ascalon. I believe there was also mention of the Branded wandering out on occasion, although I don't have a source on hand for that. The death of the Shatterer (back in vanilla) may have eased the pressure on Steeleye Span and the rest of the Steppes stretch, but it wouldn't have changed the overall picture. Judging from what happened with Orr, even Kralk's death wouldn't make the problem go away, although it might halt the outward creep of the corruption. (The new brandstorms and rifts might be making thing worse now, if they extend that far north, but again, if it's happening, we haven't heard about it yet.)*Despite the losses we inflicted on the Flame Legion during vanilla, the last we heard, they were back to posing a credible threat of invading the Black Citadel. Either they've been rallying behind a new imperator, or at least on of the breakaway bands has amassed considerable power behind themselves.

(In the interest of fairness, though, it's also worth noting that Kryta's threats haven't all been decisively dealt with either. The centaurs were left in a position to keep waging war, and the bandits have lost their central organization and access to the halls of power, but, to our knowledge, haven't actually been cleared out yet.)

And Charrs wers in war with Ebonhawke, which was major. And that was no more than 10 years ago (to current story state). In term of tactics, tradition, training and equipment, I still think Ebonhawke have better army than Krytan with half-militia half-soldier seraphs.The Seraph were never half-militia, but I agree that Ebonhawke likely has the more hardened combatants.The last thing. Maybe ghosts, brand and flame legion would reduce charr offensive capabilities, but it would also make their land harder to take. Adding to this thing that fact the Charr society is build in ~90℅ by military trained persons, taking Ascalon from them would be as hard as conquering Russia.Fully agreed here.

[Aracz.4702]

@"Aaron Ansari.1604"

Thanks for correcting. It's always better to know more. I'm glad there always is someone who can complete the thread with reliable information ^^And with this "half-militia" - i mean, they fill the duty of army and police / city guard / law enforcers. If they have different recruitment and equipment standards for different units there is no problem, but if not, I suppose they may be less capable in military tasks than if they were organisation which is fully military oriented.But that's just my guess

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@"Aracz.4702" said:And with this "half-militia" - i mean, they fill the duty of army and police / city guard / law enforcers. If they have different recruitment and equipment standards for different units there is no problem, but if not, I suppose they may be less capable in military tasks than if they were organisation which is fully military oriented.

Very fair point. Having to split their training between the two... I can see that having an impact.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Engineer_Siroa

Note: "

She is one of the creators

of the new Watchknight Mk II model"

Who's the others?

Does it matter at this point?She surely has access to blueprints as result of being part of the project team, this shows how humans can adapt and acquire new knowledge as necessary

It matters if a Human-Charr war is going to happen. Sure humans might have built it or designed it, but the quality of the parts may have been procured from the Black Citadel. Until they have shown evidence otherwise, I remain skeptic. If my suspicion is correct, the delivery of parts for Watchkinght production and repairs will come to a halt. However, if I am wrong , then I will accept that the Watchknight can very well go against the might of the Charr tanks.

EDIT: typo

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

'might' of charr tanks? The charr tanks we have seen in game, are fragile, weak and more of a propaganda tool than anything else. They remind me of asuran golems. Impressive to look at, but utterly useless.

There is another problem: charr don't use magic. Humans do.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:'might' of charr tanks? The charr tanks we have seen in game, are fragile, weak and more of a propaganda tool than anything else. They remind me of asuran golems. Impressive to look at, but utterly useless.

There is another problem: charr don't use magic. Humans do.

Plenty of Chart use magic? Plus we see both golems and charr tanks do plenty in the Orr campaign, among other things. Acting like they're 'jokes' in and of itself is laughable when we have quite a bit more evidence to the contrary.

[kasoki.5180]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:'might' of charr tanks? The charr tanks we have seen in game, are fragile, weak and more of a propaganda tool than anything else. They remind me of asuran golems. Impressive to look at, but utterly useless.

There is another problem: charr don't use magic. Humans do.

Plenty of Chart use magic? Plus we see both golems and charr tanks do plenty in the Orr campaign, among other things. Acting like they're 'jokes' in and of itself is laughable when we have quite a bit more evidence to the contrary.

Plenty of flame legion charr use magic, and player characters. Other than that, not many charr use magic. To the point that i cannot even remember ever seeing one using it. Edit: Closest to magic we see in high legion charr is Rytlock as he is revenantOn topic of tanks. We see them get stuck in mud and obliterated by mines. Yes, they are strong and capable but far from some OP device. Also, we see them used almost entirely as anti-personnel weapon. So long as humans don't march on tanks they will be fine.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@"Aracz.4702" said:And with this "half-militia" - i mean, they fill the duty of army and police / city guard / law enforcers. If they have different recruitment and equipment standards for different units there is no problem, but if not, I suppose they may be less capable in military tasks than if they were organisation which is fully military oriented.

Very fair point. Having to split their training between the two... I can see that having an impact.

Actually, most "armies" in medieval period were not really armies from modern standpoint. They were guards/mercenaries. Standing army with standardized training and equipment didn't really exist in medieval ages and was only "reinvented" in early modern period.

Ebon Vanguard is definitely no exception since a city-state of that size cannot afford to have a permanent professional army, nor would it be able to function with so much of human capital diverted into military.

[Aracz.4702]

@kasoki.5180Plenty of Charrs use magic. They just dont rely on it as much as other races. For instance, when creating Charr character you can choose your character father to be mesmer (and still a member of warband in Legions - he had to be trained to be a mesmer in Fahrar, and if one was trained, we know he had a teacher who can train plenty more). We can also asume that most of the Ash Legion soldiers use kind of shadow/dark magic (based on their mechanical skills). It's just normal for Charr to use magic, they just don't want the magic to became their major strenght. Their lack of trust toward magic shows by this, not by hate toward every magic.

And about Seraph and medieval Army model - modern is superior. And in case of Ebonhawke, if they were under siege for years, they had to have strong Army. No matter of the cost. Even if they have regular Army only for time of war, well, they were in war since every citizen of Ebonhawke remember

[kasoki.5180]

@Aracz.4702 said:

And about Seraph and medieval Army model - modern is superior. And in case of Ebonhawke, if they were under siege for years, they had to have strong Army. No matter of the cost. Even if they have regular Army only for time of war, well, they were in war since every citizen of Ebonhawke remember

Army doesn't exist in social vacuum. Yes, its obvious that modern army is superior to pre-modern. That doesnt mean that Ebon Vanguard is modern army. City states of pre-modern period can't sustain populace not actively working in actual economy. Even Habsburg military frontier was made up of peasants-soldiers that were first and foremost peasants, farmers and herders.

Thats because a society that is on level of social development where economy is based on exploatation of land cannot sustain if its population doesn't work on the land. Sure, maybe there is some secret to Ebonhawke economy that wee don't know, but so far, there is absolutely no way that Ebon Vanguard is modern-like professional military.

Also, Ebonhawke got constant support from Kryta. There is even a special military order of Krytans formed precisely to help Ebonhawke. And also, there was a route to Elona from Ebonhawke prior to Kralk's rising. Ebonhawke wasn't dealing with Charr on its own

@Aracz.4702 said:@kasoki.5180Plenty of Charrs use magic. They just dont rely on it as much as other races. For instance, when creating Charr character you can choose your character father to be mesmer (and still a member of warband in Legions - he had to be trained to be a mesmer in Fahrar, and if one was trained, we know he had a teacher who can train plenty more). We can also asume that most of the Ash Legion soldiers use kind of shadow/dark magic (based on their mechanical skills). It's just normal for Charr to use magic, they just don't want the magic to became their major strenght. Their lack of trust toward magic shows by this, not by hate toward every magic.

It is a good point about Vallus Smokemane. You are correct. But that hardly qualifies for plenty of charr :/

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@kasoki.5180 said:

@Aracz.4702 said:

And about Seraph and medieval Army model - modern is superior. And in case of Ebonhawke, if they were under siege for years, they had to have strong Army. No matter of the cost. Even if they have regular Army only for time of war, well, they were in war since every citizen of Ebonhawke remember

Army doesn't exist in social vacuum. Yes, its obvious that modern army is superior to pre-modern. That doesnt mean that Ebon Vanguard is modern army. City states of pre-modern period can't sustain populace not actively working in actual economy. Even Habsburg military frontier was made up of peasants-soldiers that were first and foremost peasants, farmers and herders.

Thats because a society that is on level of social development where economy is based on exploatation of land cannot sustain if its population doesn't work on the land. Sure, maybe there is some secret to Ebonhawke economy that wee don't know, but so far, there is absolutely no way that Ebon Vanguard is modern-like professional military.

Also, Ebonhawke got constant support from Kryta. There is even a special military order of Krytans formed precisely to help Ebonhawke. And also, there was a route to Elona from Ebonhawke prior to Kralk's rising. Ebonhawke wasn't dealing with Charr on its own

@Aracz.4702 said:@kasoki.5180Plenty of Charrs use magic. They just dont rely on it as much as other races. For instance, when creating Charr character you can choose your character father to be mesmer (and still a member of warband in Legions - he had to be trained to be a mesmer in Fahrar, and if one was trained, we know he had a teacher who can train plenty more). We can also asume that most of the Ash Legion soldiers use kind of shadow/dark magic (based on their mechanical skills). It's just normal for Charr to use magic, they just don't want the magic to became their major strenght. Their lack of trust toward magic shows by this, not by hate toward every magic.

It is a good point about Vallus Smokemane. You are correct. But that hardly qualifies for plenty of charr :/

We see plenty of ash legion using necromancy, not to mention a fair amount of guardians.

[Ayakaru.6583]

Rata Sum would support the side with the biggest walletInquest would support the side that can most efficiently test new weapons

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Rata Sum would support the side with the biggest walletInquest would support the side that can most efficiently test new weapons

lol, the majority of Rata Sum are not capitalist. Both Rata Sum and the Inquest will be interested on the same thing, testing new techs. The only difference is that Rata Sum tries to do it legally and ethically while the Inquest see such policy as an obstacle.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@kasoki.5180 said:

@Aracz.4702 said:

And about Seraph and medieval Army model - modern is superior. And in case of Ebonhawke, if they were under siege for years, they had to have strong Army. No matter of the cost. Even if they have regular Army only for time of war, well, they were in war since every citizen of Ebonhawke remember

Army doesn't exist in social vacuum. Yes, its obvious that modern army is superior to pre-modern. That doesnt mean that Ebon Vanguard is modern army. City states of pre-modern period can't sustain populace not actively working in actual economy. Even Habsburg military frontier was made up of peasants-soldiers that were first and foremost peasants, farmers and herders.

Thats because a society that is on level of social development where economy is based on exploatation of land cannot sustain if its population doesn't work on the land. Sure, maybe there is some secret to Ebonhawke economy that wee don't know, but so far, there is absolutely no way that Ebon Vanguard is modern-like professional military.

Also, Ebonhawke got constant support from Kryta. There is even a special military order of Krytans formed precisely to help Ebonhawke. And also, there was a route to Elona from Ebonhawke prior to Kralk's rising. Ebonhawke wasn't dealing with Charr on its own

While I agree in principle, I'm skeptical of whether such considerations are taken into account by the GW2 setting- for instance, if we are just going by what we see, Ebonhawke only has enough farmland to support a small handful of families, however many people they have working the land. Combine that on one hand and the suggestion that magic can boost fertility on the other, and all of our normal metrics for judging the agricultural underpinnings of a society go out the window.

What we see of the Ebon Vanguard can be taken either way, too- the organization described in Ghosts of Ascalon, with full-time soldiers that have to desert to find the time to go on a treasure hunt, suggests a modern-ish structure, while Samuelsson's insistence in-game that he thinks of himself as a farmer first could be taken as support for your position. As things stand, we just don't know enough to say. (Although we do, at least, know that Krytan military aid has been sporadic rather than a constant support, and that the passage to the Crystal Desert didn't see much use even before Kralk's rise.)

@Aracz.4702 said:@kasoki.5180Plenty of Charrs use magic. They just dont rely on it as much as other races. For instance, when creating Charr character you can choose your character father to be mesmer (and still a member of warband in Legions - he had to be trained to be a mesmer in Fahrar, and if one was trained, we know he had a teacher who can train plenty more). We can also asume that most of the Ash Legion soldiers use kind of shadow/dark magic (based on their mechanical skills). It's just normal for Charr to use magic, they just don't want the magic to became their major strenght. Their lack of trust toward magic shows by this, not by hate toward every magic.

It is a good point about Vallus Smokemane. You are correct. But that hardly qualifies for plenty of charr :/

Off the top of my head, all generic Iron Legion soldiers use guardian skills, one of the generic Ash Legion varieties- I can't remember if it's the spies or scouts- use necro skills, the options for the player's warband at creation include a guardian and an elementalist, and the options for the player to recruit later on include, if memory serves, a necromancer and another elementalist. I think the mistrust and stigma around magic certainly holds the charr back enough that it'll never be a centrepiece of their strategy, but I do think it's fair to say that they have plenty to call upon for limited, small-scale operations.

EDIT: And, again, the original premise of this thread- that the charr have united behind a Khan-Ur, which presumably means bringing the Flame back into the fold- means that they'd get all of that considerable firepower back as well.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Bah, double post.

[Ayakaru.6583]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:Rata Sum would support the side with the biggest walletInquest would support the side that can most efficiently test new weapons

lol, the majority of Rata Sum are not capitalist. Both Rata Sum and the Inquest will be interested on the same thing, testing new techs. The only difference is that Rata Sum tries to do it legally and ethically while the Inquest see such policy as an obstacle.

May i disagree?Many asura are highly considerable on the field of finance and trade. They don't all make a living of it, but quite many try to weasel every coin out of the merchants wallets. Although the ones that are proficient in trading are often found in other cities.

Rata Sum asura are indeed focused on ethical progress. Hence they won't test or develop in times of war unless it's for survival. They have plenty of labs and facilities for testing.Inquest on the other hand, will not be satisfied without 'field test data' of weapons.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I assume people forget that humans now have working, safe watch knights to help protect them?

I won't be surprise if the engineer behind their design is a Charr since the watchknight looks like Charr tech.

It is actually well known that they were designed by humans who studied the Steam Creatures in the shiverpeaks which were originally designed by Scarlet Briar. No part of their construction was of charr origin. While humans were on the losing side of the war, they were scrappy and were somehow always stay just far enough ahead od the charr to avoid destruction. Minus the Kryta scenario which was trading one slave master for another.

I'll remain skeptic until they revealed the engineer behind the design. When they introduced the watchknights, they should have introduced the engineer also since it is a historical achievement. But the hush hush about it makes me suspicious.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Royal_Engineer_Siroa

We met (one of) the engineer(s) last Festival of the Four Winds.

It was also established that the reason why Scarlet was able to hack and control the Watchknights was because they were based on her previous creations, the Steam creatures. Who the human engineers were was never relevant to the plot, that's why it wasn't brought up. The only thing relevant was "they're based on the steam creatures". Of course, Scarlet being the originator of the Steam creature itself is a retcon.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It matters if a Human-Charr war is going to happen. Sure humans might have built it or designed it, but the quality of the parts may have been procured from the Black Citadel. Until they have shown evidence otherwise, I remain skeptic. If my suspicion is correct, the delivery of parts for Watchkinght production and repairs will come to a halt. However, if I am wrong , then I will accept that the Watchknight can very well go against the might of the Charr tanks.

EDIT: typo

250 years ago, Luxons were capable of creating giant mechanical crabs. Vabbians were capable of creating siege towers. Istani were able to create foot high mechanical automaton toys that followed their owners around.

In Divinity's Reach they have a fully clockwork orrery. They have dams. They have fully functional waterworks and sewer systems.

Is their capability to create cogs really so surprising?

[b k.1648]

I would have figured the Searing was evidence enough that yes, charr do use magic sometimes.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It matters if a Human-Charr war is going to happen. Sure humans might have built it or designed it, but the quality of the parts may have been procured from the Black Citadel. Until they have shown evidence otherwise, I remain skeptic. If my suspicion is correct, the delivery of parts for Watchkinght production and repairs will come to a halt. However, if I am wrong , then I will accept that the Watchknight can very well go against the might of the Charr tanks.

EDIT: typo

250 years ago, Luxons were capable of creating giant mechanical crabs. Vabbians were capable of creating siege towers. Istani were able to create foot high mechanical automaton toys that followed their owners around.

In Divinity's Reach they have a fully clockwork orrery. They have dams. They have fully functional waterworks and sewer systems.

Is their capability to create cogs really so surprising?

It's not the design that I'm skeptic about, it's the fabrication of parts. When engineers wants their parts to be fabricated, they often shop around for suppliers. Most of the time, the engineer has to recalculate or change their specifications to meet the supplier's tooling capabilities, thus in these cases the supplier had an influence on the design. There are also times that a supplier will come up with an idea to expedite the process that will have a major impact in the design of the final product often leads to a partnership or collaboration in the final design. It is my suspicion that the Humans have partnered or collaborated with the Charr where the Humans control the final design and the Charrs are the ones fabricating the parts.

It you've watched the movie Armageddon, there is a part of that movie where the team of drillers reconfigured and refit the driller machines. This is a reflection of real life where engineers' design is not often practical or they add unnecessary parts to the final product. Scrappers are not only scrapping junks for parts, but they also scrap parts to junk in order to optimize or stream line the final product or process.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It matters if a Human-Charr war is going to happen. Sure humans might have built it or designed it, but the quality of the parts may have been procured from the Black Citadel. Until they have shown evidence otherwise, I remain skeptic. If my suspicion is correct, the delivery of parts for Watchkinght production and repairs will come to a halt. However, if I am wrong , then I will accept that the Watchknight can very well go against the might of the Charr tanks.

EDIT: typo

250 years ago, Luxons were capable of creating giant mechanical crabs. Vabbians were capable of creating siege towers. Istani were able to create foot high mechanical automaton toys that followed their owners around.

In Divinity's Reach they have a fully clockwork orrery. They have dams. They have fully functional waterworks and sewer systems.

Is their capability to create cogs really so surprising?

It's not the design that I'm skeptic about, it's the fabrication of parts. When engineers wants their parts to be fabricated, they often shop around for suppliers. Most of the time, the engineer has to recalculate or change their specifications to meet the supplier's tooling capabilities, thus in these cases the supplier had an influence on the design. There are also times that a supplier will come up with an idea to expedite the process that will have a major impact in the design of the final product often leads to a partnership or collaboration in the final design. It is my suspicion that the Humans have partnered or collaborated with the Charr where the Humans control the final design and the Charrs are the ones fabricating the parts.

Again, my prior examples show that humanity was fully capable of manufacturing the parts 250 years ago in most human cultures, and there are other cases, cases which existed long before the human-charr treaty, that would require similar mechanical parts, thus manufacturing and fabrication, that are used in GW2 but predates the treaty that was only a year old by the time the game began.

The cease-fire was still too young - barely two years old at the time - for humans to have bought mass produced part from the charr to make the Watchknights. The timeline simply doesn't add up. It'd make more sense for them to have bought the parts from asura. After all, Uzolan, a charr-hater, built a ton of mechanical inventions, including a robot (which, incidentally, has a very similar aesthetic to steam creatures), and his only known supplier was the Inquest, Caudecus, and Separatists.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It matters if a Human-Charr war is going to happen. Sure humans might have built it or designed it, but the quality of the parts may have been procured from the Black Citadel. Until they have shown evidence otherwise, I remain skeptic. If my suspicion is correct, the delivery of parts for Watchkinght production and repairs will come to a halt. However, if I am wrong , then I will accept that the Watchknight can very well go against the might of the Charr tanks.

EDIT: typo

250 years ago, Luxons were capable of creating giant mechanical crabs. Vabbians were capable of creating siege towers. Istani were able to create foot high mechanical automaton toys that followed their owners around.

In Divinity's Reach they have a fully clockwork orrery. They have dams. They have fully functional waterworks and sewer systems.

Is their capability to create cogs really so surprising?

It's not the design that I'm skeptic about, it's the fabrication of parts. When engineers wants their parts to be fabricated, they often shop around for suppliers. Most of the time, the engineer has to recalculate or change their specifications to meet the supplier's tooling capabilities, thus in these cases the supplier had an influence on the design. There are also times that a supplier will come up with an idea to expedite the process that will have a major impact in the design of the final product often leads to a partnership or collaboration in the final design. It is my suspicion that the Humans have partnered or collaborated with the Charr where the Humans control the final design and the Charrs are the ones fabricating the parts.

Again, my prior examples show that humanity was fully capable of manufacturing the parts 250 years ago in most human cultures, and there are other cases, cases which existed long before the human-charr treaty, that would require similar mechanical parts, thus manufacturing and fabrication, that are used in GW2 but predates the treaty that was only a year old by the time the game began.

I question the Luxon's ingenuity when I see a giant turtle with a cannon on its back, Vabbian siege towers are inanimate object, and Istani toys are toys, easily breakable.

It's one thing to build a robot that can dance and it's another to build an automaton that is combat ready. There's are big differences there.

The cease-fire was still too young - barely two years old at the time - for humans to have bought mass produced part from the charr to make the Watchknights. The timeline simply doesn't add up. It'd make more sense for them to have bought the parts from asura. After all, Uzolan, a charr-hater, built a ton of mechanical inventions, including a robot (which, incidentally, has a very similar aesthetic to steam creatures), and his only known supplier was the Inquest, Caudecus, and Separatists.

It's not unheard of that as a condition for peace is to open trade and purchase products in mass quantity. As for Uzolan, his golem is an obvious Asuran tech he neither designed nor built. I don't see the resemblance of it to the Steam Creature since the steam creatures are designed based on Tyrian wild life (rider, minotaur, ogre).

The Watchknight is something else completely. Something that a Gear Warband would have created, if not fabricated.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I question the Luxon's ingenuity when I see a giant turtle with a cannon on its back, Vabbian siege towers are inanimate object, and Istani toys are toys, easily breakable.

It's one thing to build a robot that can dance and it's another to build an automaton that is combat ready. There's are big differences there.

The siege turtles were raised by the Turtle Clan. The Leviathan ships were constructed by the Serpent Clan. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Leviathan_(ship) It's like saying "charr are not capable of building a robot because Blood Legion prefer fighting hand-to-hand combat and raising giant devourers". Or like saying you question modern humanity's technological capabilities because there are the Amish still use horse-drawn carriages. Different subcultures doesn't mean the whole are as advanced as the most technologically-primitive culture.

You say "Istani toys are toys, easily breakable" yet those same types of toys cause annual mayhem.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It's not unheard of that as a condition for peace is to open trade and purchase products in mass quantity. As for Uzolan, his golem is an obvious Asuran tech he neither designed nor built. I don't see the resemblance of it to the Steam Creature since the steam creatures are designed based on Tyrian wild life (rider, minotaur, ogre).

The Watchknight is something else completely. Something that a Gear Warband would have created, if not fabricated.

The problem with your first sentence is that the conditions were still being discussed as of 1325. And the conditions agreed upon were merely land cessions and cease fires, with subordinants cooperating to eliminate local shared threats like harpies, ogres, and those opposing the treaty talks (Renegades and Separatists). The peace treaty wasn't signed until sometime after Season 2, since iirc, it's brought up to be ongoing during the latter first-half of Season 2.

And no, it is not obvious that Uzolan did not build nor design his golem; yes there is asuran tech influences but as shown by Uzolan's workshop he is fully capable of making his own devices too. Especially seeing how there is no aesthetic similarity between it and asuratech besides animation and overall bipedal form. And the resemblance to the steam creatures is in the material used, not the shape of the golem. Look under the plated parts like the abdomen and back and you get the same kind of tubing design seen in steam creature. Most likely scenario is that Uzolan used Caudecus and Separatists to reverse engineer the Steam creatures for the golem, then the royal engineers used its blueprints (since the golem itself is destroyed in explorable mode) to inspire the Watchknights.

Also, why would a tank squadron be capable of creating fine machinery? There's a world of difference between robotics and vehicles, and all charr have shown to be good for are vehicles and siege engines. They've never once showed capabilities or interest in making robotics/golems.

[norbes.3620]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:It you've watched the movie Armageddon, there is a part of that movie where the team of drillers reconfigured and refit the driller machines. This is a reflection of real life where engineers' design is not often practical or they add unnecessary parts to the final product. Scrappers are not only scrapping junks for parts, but they also scrap parts to junk in order to optimize or stream line the final product or process.

Just saying that the Engineer in this case is the Crew leader of the Drillers. the government stole the blueprints and did a sloppy Job building the machine.

_Seems we stumble over the same Thing over and over here.

• do the charr have significant magicians compared to humans
• are humans capable of building their own stuff without charr
• why should the other governments prefere one race over the other

ist pretty clear that we got a lot of biased opinions here regarding the races but in my opinion the races themselfs are not what should be considered here because the political structure has way too much varieties to consider

some things that were mentioned are bugging me a bitassuming the leagons were united again under the khan-ur and the flame leagion joins back into the other high legions. why should their magicians have so much Impact compared to human magicians?the humans are a magical culture and the flame Legion wich got the most Magicians in the high Legion is at the Moment pretty beat up without much Option to regain strengths so i would say that this Point is sold to devinitys reach

in case that "the whole asuran race" gets involved (why?) why exactly should the arcane counsil and the inquest favor the same Party .. and why should the inquest favor only one Party instead of outplaying both?

why do some People still believe that the norn Society is functioning like a Country from the real world?.. they are soloists and only gather to brag drink eat and f..form families.sometimes they decide to hunt a big Prey with a Group but there is no politic involved in political matters the head of the big gathering Point may make a Suggestion what he thinks is wise but in the end every norn will make his own decision what to do

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I question the Luxon's ingenuity when I see a giant turtle with a cannon on its back, Vabbian siege towers are inanimate object, and Istani toys are toys, easily breakable.

It's one thing to build a robot that can dance and it's another to build an automaton that is combat ready. There's are big differences there.

It's like saying "charr are not capable of building a robot because Blood Legion prefer fighting hand-to-hand combat and raising giant devourers".

Not even close. Even if the Blood Legion prefers fighting hand-to-hand and use giant devourers, their culture as whole didn't just rely on that alone. They also constructed tanks and modern weaponry and armors. Compare to the Luxon, they installed a cannon on the back of a turtle incapable of targeting anyone inside a 100 yard range.

You say "Istani toys are toys, easily breakable" yet those same types of toys cause annual mayhem.

That's not what I would call "combat-ready". Nerf guns can cause mayhem and chaos too. They are toys for a reason.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:It's not unheard of that as a condition for peace is to open trade and purchase products in mass quantity. As for Uzolan, his golem is an obvious Asuran tech he neither designed nor built. I don't see the resemblance of it to the Steam Creature since the steam creatures are designed based on Tyrian wild life (rider, minotaur, ogre).

The Watchknight is something else completely. Something that a Gear Warband would have created, if not fabricated.

The problem with your first sentence is that the conditions were still being discussed as of 1325. And the conditions agreed upon were merely land cessions and cease fires, with subordinants cooperating to eliminate local shared threats like harpies, ogres, and those opposing the treaty talks (Renegades and Separatists). The peace treaty wasn't signed until sometime after Season 2, since iirc, it's brought up to be ongoing during the latter first-half of Season 2.

As long as there is no embargo policy, peace or war, traders will trade. Merchants will sell their goods to whoever wants to buy until a government body tells them not to. Goods are traveling between Ascalon and Kryta despite the treaty. Also in trades, there is always the middle man. The Watchknight production team can procure the parts from a clock merchant and the clock merchant buys them from the Charrs.

And no, it is not obvious that Uzolan did not build nor design his golem; yes there is asuran tech influences but as shown by Uzolan's workshop he is fully capable of making his own devices too. Especially seeing how there is no aesthetic similarity between it and asuratech besides animation and overall bipedal form. And the resemblance to the steam creatures is in the material used, not the shape of the golem. Look under the plated parts like the abdomen and back and you get the same kind of tubing design seen in steam creature. Most likely scenario is that Uzolan used Caudecus and Separatists to reverse engineer the Steam creatures for the golem, then the royal engineers used its blueprints (since the golem itself is destroyed in explorable mode) to inspire the Watchknights.

Lets say, ok, Uzolan did design and made all those, that would only make him a Tony Stark of the GW2 human race. It doesn't necessarily mean that every engineers and scientists working for the Stark Industries are capable of creating an Ironman suit...in a cave with scraps.

Also, why would a tank squadron be capable of creating fine machinery? There's a world of difference between robotics and vehicles, and all charr have shown to be good for are vehicles and siege engines. They've never once showed capabilities or interest in making robotics/golems.

I disagree. Automated turret system (Engineer Turrets) and voice command responding drone system (Scrappers) with seek and destroy programming is more than enough to show the capabilities of the Charr. In fact, according to the Lore, it was the Iron Legion who brought engineering to Tyria.

[Telwyn.1630]

If another war broke out would dispprove Glints version where all the races were not at war with each other in a world without the elder dragons.Also my human character Tarwin hero of Ascalon helped the charr against the threats to the legions, and many of the charr would be divided (escpaallay if they are part of the orders of Tyria) on fighting a war with humans since it means they have a chance to being forced to fight Tarwin the pact commander who has been helping the charr and dose not even hate charr, and Tarwin thinks all female charr are cute even the ones who hates him and dose not like having to kill them . And Tarwin would just be frustrated with who ever starts the war and be the voice of reason to his countless charr friends that he helped many times to stand down from the fighting another war with Ascalon and that if they destroy whats left of his country Tarwin well question why did he even brother to help the charr legions if they were just going to betray his trust .