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WvW commanders/guilds kicking non-meta classes.


Princ.3598

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It's funny. Months and months ago I thought exactly like the OP. I too took my Ranger into WvW and couldn't understand why a commander didn't want me in their squad when there was plenty of room. How could I be a waste of a spot when the spot was open to begin with? I also didn't understand why I was being told not to follow them while outside the zerg. What harm could I do? I can only help, right? I posted several forum threads about it in fact; could probably dig those up for giggles.

Then I chose to close my mouth, and instead used my eyes and ears and read and listened to what WvW'ers were saying. I decided to try playing one of the "meta" builds, and started running with pugmanders. Fast forward and I spend half my time in WvW, I have more characters geared/dedicated to WvW than I do PvE, am a member of more WvW guilds than PvE, and I completely and totally get it.

Now there are plenty of pugmanders running open raids that don't care who joins, and that's fine.

But when a commander is running open raids but want's to have a decent shot at beating other blobs, you bet they will demand Meta builds. They will also demand you get on voice comms and follow on tag. Because failing to do any of those makes that player a liability, not an asset.

They become a rally bot because they are out of position, out of range of heals/boons, or running an inappropriate build, and just melt when one pushed.They are receiving boons and heals that could be going to another member of the squad who is having more of an impact.

The commander does want to win. So too should all the people in their squad. So I will unapologetically say, if you want to win, then take the advice and direction that is given, or don't join in. If you as a new player think you know the game better than those who play it daily...well, what can I say.

When I started playing a meta build, getting on discord, staying on tag, magically not only was I no longer being booted from squads, but I was having a much better time in WvW, and really started to have fun.

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@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@"Tinnel.4369" said:Commanders that don't know how to make use of non-blob classes/builds to scout, flip sentries, camps, and paper towers to control the map baffle me.

The fact they are following a zerg/blob means they are not interested to do such, why would you think tags saying anything would change their reasons for following a zerg/blob?

Where do you draw the assumption that they're not interested if they haven't been asked/directed or even know it's a possible role? You think they're interested in playing a meta class by the same logic? It's as easy to say, "go flip X, or find me Y" as it is to say, "get on X or Y class". Further, what is the logic in accepting someone purely for the class they're on rather than their ability to play any class?

Why would you think tags saying anything wouldn't change their reason? Every blob class in such a blob has a specific role dictated by the tag. Similarly, smart tags put all their non-blob classes in a party, give them participation, and say, "go do X". If they're not performing that role you boot them, just like you boot blob classes that can't stay on tag.

In simple language: Rangers and such have no place in a blob. True. Rangers and such have no place in a squad. False.

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@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:Commanders that don't know how to make use of non-blob classes/builds to scout, flip sentries, camps, and paper towers to control the map baffle me.

The fact they are following a zerg/blob means they are not interested to do such, why would you think tags saying anything would change their reasons for following a zerg/blob?

Where do you draw the assumption that they're not interested if they haven't been asked/directed or even know it's a possible role? You think they're interested in playing a meta class by the same logic? It's as easy to say, "go flip X, or find me Y" as it is to say, "get on X or Y class". Further, what is the logic in accepting someone purely for the class they're on rather than their ability to play any class?

Why would you think tags saying anything wouldn't change their reason? Every blob class in such a blob has a specific role dictated by the tag. Similarly, smart tags put all their non-blob classes in a party, give them participation, and say, "go do X". If they're not performing that role you boot them, just like you boot blob classes that can't stay on tag.

In simple language: Rangers and such have no place in a blob. True. Rangers and such have no place in a squad. False.

I guess you don't tag?

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Ive noticed mostly zerg players are against no downstate (or so it seems to me) but I think that if there were no downstate this would go away. No downstate = no rallies. If you're playing a class or build that is not up to part for large scale WvW then you are not only just a liability to your team but you're technically helping the enemy team. Lets say 5-10 people tag you. Then you die because of your build and not your skill. Well then you just rallied 5-10 people. Obviously there are cases where you can play off meta exceptionally well and your team can truly benefit from you but they are looking to be competitive. It is a competitive game mode after all.

Edit: I get why some people dont like no downstate. Must be annoying being a glass weaver and dying to AC and having to run all the way back, but I do think no downstate would help eliminate some of the concerns over rallying.

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@SkyShroud.2865 said:

@Tinnel.4369 said:Commanders that don't know how to make use of non-blob classes/builds to scout, flip sentries, camps, and paper towers to control the map baffle me.

The fact they are following a zerg/blob means they are not interested to do such, why would you think tags saying anything would change their reasons for following a zerg/blob?

Where do you draw the assumption that they're not interested if they haven't been asked/directed or even know it's a possible role? You think they're interested in playing a meta class by the same logic? It's as easy to say, "go flip X, or find me Y" as it is to say, "get on X or Y class". Further, what is the logic in accepting someone purely for the class they're on rather than their ability to play any class?

Why would you think tags saying anything wouldn't change their reason? Every blob class in such a blob has a specific role dictated by the tag. Similarly, smart tags put all their non-blob classes in a party, give them participation, and say, "go do X". If they're not performing that role you boot them, just like you boot blob classes that can't stay on tag.

In simple language: Rangers and such have no place in a blob. True. Rangers and such have no place in a squad. False.

I guess you don't tag?

I guess you don't manage your maps?

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Don't listen to people telling you to play meta or GTFO. This is part of why we have such thin populations in this game mode. Because these tossers have driven everyone away to the point where all they did is hop from map to map fighting the same blob, circling here or there and getting high off the smell of each other's farts in their VOIP of choice.

My suggestion to you is to ignore the tag. If you get the other people on the map who are also roaming together especially on a home borderland it's actually more beneficial to have a secondary blob of say ten to fifteen. Even five to seven will work wonders if you're united instead of spread out all over the place.

On a home borderland the average tag is just there to get bags for his blob. So just write the tag and his crew off as only going where the action is heaviest. But depending on your match-up and how fat the enemy server is, they're probably going to have several smaller bands two to five or even five to ten running around and taking things wherever your tag isn't. Contrary to what anybody says this is important.

So if your tag is being that way then go to wherever they aren't with your band of misfits and re flip or defend anything they aren't. You'll still get participation and advancement for whatever reward track you're on, you'll still get fights. And if by chance it turns out the tag finds his blob is a bit too thin to fight the enemy blob at the time? Well that's just tough cheese, isn't it?

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@Iozeph.5617 said:Don't listen to people telling you to play meta or GTFO. This is part of why we have such thin populations in this game mode. Because these tossers have driven everyone away to the point where all they did is hope from map to map fighting the same blob, circling here or there and getting high off the smell of each other's farts in their VOIP of choice.

My suggestion to you is to ignore the tag. If you get the other people on the map who are also roaming together especially on a home borderland it's actually more beneficial to have a secondary blob of say ten to fifteen. Even five to seven will work wonders if you're united instead of spread out all over the place.

On a home borderland the average tag is just there to get bags for his blob. So just write the tag and his crew off as only going where the action is heaviest. But depending on your match-up and how fat the enemy server is, they're probably going to have several smaller bands two to five or even five to ten running around and taking things wherever your tag isn't. Contrary to what anybody says this is important.

So if your tag is being that way then go to wherever they aren't with your band of misfits and re flip or defend anything they aren't. You'll still get participation and advancement for whatever reward track you're on, you'll still get fights. And if by chance it turns out the tag finds his blob is a bit too thin to fight the enemy blob at the time? Well that's just tough cheese, isn't it?

While I agree on your solutions for them I don't fault the tag for playing to win in a competitive game mode.

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I see people still don't know how to play soulbeast properly in WvW.Soulbeast is fantastic in a zerg, top 3 class for melee damage in a zerg.I saw someone say in this thread that with a dps meter you'd be bottom? What, the, f? What are you people playing?Melee soulbeast outputs upper mid table damage while still being tanky af and also offering some support, cc, reflects.When I played pure glass backline ranger GS/LB I've been top dps in blob fights so many times I stopped counting.Positioning is key.

Honestly all this ranger hate in WvW is because terrible players come to the game mode and play badly. Yet I've seen more bad rallybot necros, revs and eles in WvW than rangers. But somehow they go unnoticed cause they play meta builds... or are they? How would you know? You assume they're using it, you assume they know how to play their role in a zerg.

Core ranger, I agree, no place in a zerg unfortunately. Druid can be useful with hard cc and heal. Soulbeast is imo top 4 classes for WvW zerg. Again, if built and played right.

Don't believe me? Come to Vabbi, get on my tag and join the revolution.

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@hobotnicax.7918 said:I see people still don't know how to play soulbeast properly in WvW.Soulbeast is fantastic in a zerg, top 3 class for melee damage in a zerg.I saw someone say in this thread that with a dps meter you'd be bottom? What, the, f? What are you people playing?Melee soulbeast outputs upper mid table damage while still being tanky af and also offering some support, cc, reflects.When I played pure glass backline ranger GS/LB I've been top dps in blob fights so many times I stopped counting.Positioning is key.

Honestly all this ranger hate in WvW is because terrible players come to the game mode and play badly. Yet I've seen more bad rallybot necros, revs and eles in WvW than rangers. But somehow they go unnoticed cause they play meta builds... or are they? How would you know? You assume they're using it, you assume they know how to play their role in a zerg.

Core ranger, I agree, no place in a zerg unfortunately. Druid can be useful with hard cc and heal. Soulbeast is imo top 4 classes for WvW zerg. Again, if built and played right.

Don't believe me? Come to Vabbi, get on my tag and join the revolution.

Dude... I've been top dps on literary every build i played. Yeah even minstrel mesmer... Doesn't say much if it happens once per full moon.

Which guild are you playing for?

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The rallybot has honestly been overblown. It's limited to 1 rally = 1 death now. In the past when you could have had some bad come in and rally 5 people on the other side yes, that sucks, but now the effect is greatly netered and not that noticable outside of small scale. Nowadays bads get 0-pushed and die at the start of the fight. They can't rally anyone. Especially with that mount insta-finish now.

If your group is losing due to rallies and you aren't severely outnumbered, stop making excuses and have better down management.

Also, you might be the best ranger in the world, but who would know? The commander cannot interview 30 people every time they run. You just have to make yourself known and maybe they'll understand.

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@Loosmaster.8263 said:SOP= Standard Operating Procedures. If you're not running a META class or build, you are useless. Regardless if the squad is full or not.

I disagree here. Non-SOP characters are very effective when used well. The problem is for the number of competent commanders out there, there's also a lot of incompetent commanders who can't make good use of the resources they do have. You can completely flip a meta group onto it's head with a hodge podge zerg of random crap with tactics made on the fly.

Another note that is often forgotten, is that taking what is meta, does not mean you are guaranteed to win. If the player in the build knows nothing about the class, or the build, or lacks general skills. Then it's just as effective as running into a fight naked.

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Just don't join the squads -- 90 percent of the commanders who say no rangers, and "rangers just do one target" don't know the first #*($ thing about playing a ranger. Run along side a group for awhile, or go off on your own. Metas are for mindless drones and meat shields that have no clue how to actually play a class dynamically, only play their "rotations." i.e. trained monkeys taught to stand in one place and hit keys in the same order - over and over and over and over ---ad nauseum.

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@DanAlcedo.3281 said:

@Princ.3598 said:I would just like to add that I'm talking about the scenario of a squad not being full. So 35/50, otherwise I would gladly leave a spot for a meta class honestly.

To be perfectly honest.98% of the time, having no ranger is better then having one.

Simply because a bad ranger does more harm then good thanks to reflects.

And rangers that enter WvW are either new, roamers or trolling the commander.

Rangers have a extremely bad reputation in WvW and that for a good reason.

Bad players have bad raps. Bad Rangers don’t help.

But good Rangers are ALWAYS welcome where I play. Anyone that thinks Rangers don’t have any place in a squad simply are short sighted and have tunnel vision.

I laugh at squads that come to cap structures that don’t have ranger support... the siege that would be gone if me and my subsquad were there lives... and they get driven off.

If all you want is fights period then Rangers, I agree, can be a problem if not played right. But wvw is rarely fights only except for a handful of guilds and elite superhero wannabes.

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@Duckota.4769 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Don't listen to people telling you to play meta or GTFO. This is part of why we have such thin populations in this game mode. Because these tossers have driven everyone away to the point where all they did is hope from map to map fighting the same blob, circling here or there and getting high off the smell of each other's farts in their VOIP of choice.

My suggestion to you is to ignore the tag. If you get the other people on the map who are also roaming together especially on a home borderland it's actually more beneficial to have a secondary blob of say ten to fifteen. Even five to seven will work wonders if you're united instead of spread out all over the place.

On a home borderland the average tag is just there to get bags for his blob. So just write the tag and his crew off as only going where the action is heaviest. But depending on your match-up and how fat the enemy server is, they're probably going to have several smaller bands two to five or even five to ten running around and taking things wherever your tag isn't. Contrary to what anybody says this is important.

So if your tag is being that way then go to wherever they aren't with your band of misfits and re flip or defend anything they aren't. You'll still get participation and advancement for whatever reward track you're on, you'll still get fights. And if by chance it turns out the tag finds his blob is a bit too thin to fight the enemy blob at the time? Well that's just tough cheese, isn't it?

While I agree on your solutions for them I don't fault the tag for playing to win in a competitive game mode.

But on average the tag isn't trying to win, are they? At least not the game mode. Any more than they were in DAoC when roaming Emain Macha for quick fights. They're busy getting bags/world exp for the crew of their pirate ship so they won't mutiny, hence the borderland hopping. Not that there aren't exceptions to prove the rule, but it's why most nights Eternal Battlegrounds is the only BL with a queue.

Perhaps if what constituted 'winning the mode' wasn't such a nebulous concept. Well not that nebulous as it means out scoring your opponent in PPT and going up the ladder. But that's sort of meaningless now, isn't it? Most of the time this is cast aside because -without turning this into a match-ups thread- nobody wants to go up tier and get stuck against an unfairly stacked server for a week or more. They'd rather go seal clubbing against pairings less able to handle them as opponents in order to keep the bags/wexp flowing.

I suppose ultimately, apart from the profession and population balance nightmares, if we had a point to playing that a majority could agree upon -one besides ranking up for ranking up's sake- the mode would be in less trouble than it's in. /shrug

One difference I see, as it was in DAoC, is a matter of philospohy. Some people are still trying to play on maps as though winning/realm defence matters and other just don't care as much and want to pass what for them, is just a good time, even if that means staying in EB to the detriment of PPT score because they see no point in it.

Neither's completely wrong. It just shows up the lack of care/attention to the game mode ANet's given over the years -that even in light of the pitfalls of DAoC and other similar games- they've allowed WvW to fall into the same traps by not facilitating/incentiveising objective defence more than they have.

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The issue is the way boon priority works. If you're in a squad the closest 5 people get boons. If 3/5 of those people are in your sub group those 3 get priority then randomly selects 2 close people.

If a ranger is on top of tag, and a Scourge is off by just 50 units, the scourge won't get boons when the scourge DESPERATELY needs the stability to be effective in fights.

When I tag, if I have rangers etc, I tend to put them in a sub group by themselves, and ask someone to tag targets to pew pew single target snipe.

But again, ranger in general isn't very good for large scale fights, which is why most commanders don't even want them in the squad, because it takes away vital aspects other classes need to be optimal.

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@zinkz.7045 said:

@Duckota.4769 said:Lets say 5-10 people tag you. Then you die because of your build and not your skill. Well then you just rallied 5-10 people.

You are out of date, they changed how rally works quite some time ago, in WvW a person can only rally one opponent now regardless of how many tagged them.

You're right. My bad, but my point -kind of- still remains. Just not as drastic as my earlier comment by far :)

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@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:Don't listen to people telling you to play meta or GTFO. This is part of why we have such thin populations in this game mode. Because these tossers have driven everyone away to the point where all they did is hope from map to map fighting the same blob, circling here or there and getting high off the smell of each other's farts in their VOIP of choice.

My suggestion to you is to ignore the tag. If you get the other people on the map who are also roaming together especially on a home borderland it's actually more beneficial to have a secondary blob of say ten to fifteen. Even five to seven will work wonders if you're united instead of spread out all over the place.

On a home borderland the average tag is just there to get bags for his blob. So just write the tag and his crew off as only going where the action is heaviest. But depending on your match-up and how fat the enemy server is, they're probably going to have several smaller bands two to five or even five to ten running around and taking things wherever your tag isn't. Contrary to what anybody says this is important.

So if your tag is being that way then go to wherever they aren't with your band of misfits and re flip or defend anything they aren't. You'll still get participation and advancement for whatever reward track you're on, you'll still get fights. And if by chance it turns out the tag finds his blob is a bit too thin to fight the enemy blob at the time? Well that's just tough cheese, isn't it?

While I agree on your solutions for them I don't fault the tag for playing to win in a competitive game mode.

But on average the tag isn't trying to win, are they? At least not the game mode. Any more than they were in DAoC when roaming Emain Macha for quick fights. They're busy getting bags/world exp for the crew of their pirate ship so they won't mutiny, hence the borderland hopping. Not that there aren't exceptions to prove the rule, but it's why most nights Eternal Battlegrounds is the only BL with a queue.

Perhaps if what constituted 'winning the mode' wasn't such a nebulous concept. Well not that nebulous as it means out scoring your opponent in PPT and going up the ladder. But that's sort of meaningless now, isn't it? Most of the time this is cast aside because -without turning this into a match-ups thread- nobody wants to go up tier and get stuck against an unfairly stacked server for a week or more. They'd rather go seal clubbing against pairings less able to handle them as opponents in order to keep the bags/wexp flowing.

I suppose ultimately, apart from the profession and population balance nightmares, if we had a point to playing that a majority could agree upon -one besides ranking up for ranking up's sake- the mode would be in less trouble than it's in. /shrug

One difference I see, as it was in DAoC, is a matter of philospohy. Some people are still trying to play on maps as though winning/realm defence matters and other just don't care as much and want to pass what for them, is just a good time, even if that means staying in EB to the detriment of PPT score because they see no point in it.

Neither's completely wrong. It just shows up the lack of care/attention to the game mode ANet's given over the years -that even in light of the pitfalls of DAoC and other similar games- they've allowed WvW to fall into the same traps by not facilitating/incentiveising objective defence more than they have.

It's not about not wanting to go up a tier, but doing that for 7 years is just plain boring, especially because you don't get anything for it, hell even a freaking achivement is not present. Last time i got something for winning a matchup that i cared about was the golden dolyak finisher that i still have 476 of.

I enjoy fights more, most commanders that are worth a damn are in guilds which also makes them very near to my state of mind and don't care about ppt, but about good fights, which is where only fun in wvw you can get is.

About kicking stuff. Just put on a good guild tag, you will never get kicked again and will most likely even be in commanders party. Oh you can't? Than don't question the commander, because he has way more experience than you do.

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@Princ.3598 said:(Posted this on reddit but will here aswell to maybe hear more opinions)

Hi,

First off I would like to say I'm a fairly new player to WvW, but not the game or PvP (plat there). I have played WvW before but just to get my legendary weapon. Since the mount came out I tried WvW again and found that It's enjoyable if done correctly, especially with coordinated teams in discord.

The thing is..I'm a soulbeast. And the commanders don't want me in their teams. In our server, there is one prevalent guild that runs WvW and tags and I got told to basically switch to meta wvw classes or else I'm just not welcome in the raid. So after waiting in a 50-100man queue, all I can do is try to follow the commander as some outcasted class that shouldnt be there in the first place.

It definitely shifted my perspective on WvW a bit. While I understand where they are coming from since the goal is to..win. Just doesnt feel good.

EDIT: I would just like to add that I'm talking about the scenario of a squad not being full. So 35/50, otherwise I would gladly leave a spot for a meta class honestly.

Is this a common occurence on your servers aswell?

Thoughts?

Well what are your thoughts on an exotic Cleric Warrior in a PvE Raid wing?

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@"hobotnicax.7918" said:I see people still don't know how to play soulbeast properly in WvW.Soulbeast is fantastic in a zerg, top 3 class for melee damage in a zerg.I saw someone say in this thread that with a dps meter you'd be bottom? What, the, f? What are you people playing?Melee soulbeast outputs upper mid table damage while still being tanky af and also offering some support, cc, reflects.When I played pure glass backline ranger GS/LB I've been top dps in blob fights so many times I stopped counting.Positioning is key.

Honestly all this ranger hate in WvW is because terrible players come to the game mode and play badly. Yet I've seen more bad rallybot necros, revs and eles in WvW than rangers. But somehow they go unnoticed cause they play meta builds... or are they? How would you know? You assume they're using it, you assume they know how to play their role in a zerg.

Core ranger, I agree, no place in a zerg unfortunately. Druid can be useful with hard cc and heal. Soulbeast is imo top 4 classes for WvW zerg. Again, if built and played right.

Don't believe me? Come to Vabbi, get on my tag and join the revolution.

Strangely enough, Vabbi build site had an "omegalul" on ranger section on builds. Now it explains why you shouldnt play ranger. If you were top dps as ranger, your weavers, necros and heralds sucked horribly, sorry. There is nothing a ranger can do in zergs that another class cant do better. Also do not compare bad players with proper build classes against great players with no blobclasses. When speaking of players at the same skill level, ranger will be always outdpssed, outhealed, outcced. The fact that YOU know how to play a ranger well, speaks for a tiny minority of the class. A mediocre scourge is still more useful than a good ranger.And ranger being top 4 blobclass,i am not buying it. Firebrand, scourge, herald, weaver, fl dd, spellbreaker, healengi, healtemp do stuff better than a ranger. That is objective.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:I see people still don't know how to play soulbeast properly in WvW.Soulbeast is fantastic in a zerg, top 3 class for melee damage in a zerg.I saw someone say in this thread that with a dps meter you'd be bottom? What, the, f? What are you people playing?Melee soulbeast outputs upper mid table damage while still being tanky af and also offering some support, cc, reflects.When I played pure glass backline ranger GS/LB I've been top dps in blob fights so many times I stopped counting.Positioning is key.

Honestly all this ranger hate in WvW is because terrible players come to the game mode and play badly. Yet I've seen more bad rallybot necros, revs and eles in WvW than rangers. But somehow they go unnoticed cause they play meta builds... or are they? How would you know? You assume they're using it, you assume they know how to play their role in a zerg.

Core ranger, I agree, no place in a zerg unfortunately. Druid can be useful with hard cc and heal. Soulbeast is imo top 4 classes for WvW zerg. Again, if built and played right.

Don't believe me? Come to Vabbi, get on my tag and join the revolution.

Strangely enough, Vabbi build site had an "omegalul" on ranger section on builds. Now it explains why you shouldnt play ranger. If you were top dps as ranger, your weavers, necros and heralds sucked horribly, sorry. There is nothing a ranger can do in zergs that another class cant do better. Also do not compare bad players with proper build classes against great players with no blobclasses. When speaking of players at the same skill level, ranger will be always outdpssed, outhealed, outcced. The fact that YOU know how to play a ranger well, speaks for a tiny minority of the class. A mediocre scourge is still more useful than a good ranger.And ranger being top 4 blobclass,i am not buying it. Firebrand, scourge, herald, weaver, fl dd, spellbreaker, healengi, healtemp do stuff better than a ranger. That is objective.

And yet a decent ranger could pinsnipe the tag and make the enemy zerg crumble..99% of rangers are bad at blobbing but there are a few good ones out there that know what to bring and what to do at keytimes such as barrage on the push or knockback shot on the enemy commander or even just tanking up with stone on the push and dropping a maul to WI to instantly down everyone around you for a bag cleann up.

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