Is the Warclaw just a reskinned Griffon?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@derd.6413 said:

@ROMANG.1903 said:But all these are random mobs in open world. ANet used us to having near perfect quality and original models when it comes to mounts that players will use every day, and the way it looks just shows how off this model is for a feline mount (which as I said, is even more obvious on the Outrider skin).

rig, not model. get your terminology right. and the only reason mounts don't share rigs (if they don't) is because they're more intricately animated and not because it increase quality to give everything a unique rig, because it doesn't

Exactly this. Mounts required a greatly different set of animations due to being mounts, so they had to be new when made. But once made, they've used those rigs for other things.

Prime obvious example being Aurene using the griffon mount rig. There is, and no doubt will be, more NPCs utilizing the mount rigging in the future. But it would be arguably just as much if not more work for them to have taken an original rig (say the non-mount raptor and griffon rigs) and applied them to the mounts.

[bbop.9706]

The warclaw is inferior to previous mount designs and so are the new skins. Clearly rushed and lacking polish. they look gen 1.

I see no point in it unless you wvw. I wont be getting it. Cash grab attempt to get people into wvw that will fail.

[Blaeys.3102]

They have been reusing model rigs since the game first came out (and, as others have pointed out - it is a very common practice in game development). It isn't a sign that the game is failing or that they put in less effort than they should have on the Warclaw - it is just a sign that they reused the griffon rig to make the warclaw (nothing more).

The warclaw looks and plays well in game. That is really all that matters.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"gateless gate.8406" said:I'm surprised yet unsurprised at the apologists in this thread. What if the jackal, griffon, and raptor all had the same run animations? That would make them much less interesting, and would certainly not impart the sense of quality that those mounts currently do. Animations are extremely important in infusing a creature/character with its unique personality. Additionally, re-using animations for something as "in your face" as a mount (ie, a creature you're going to be staring at for hours) indicates corner cutting/a lack of investment from the studio. And we haven't even touched on the poorly "clipped" animation loop in the warclaw's run (there's a very obvious and jarring cut or jump in its run cycle).

This problem exists on a sliding scale. The more corners that are cut when developing content, the cheaper the game begins to feel. No, this specific corner cutting on the warclaw will not be the death of GW2, obviously, but over time, all the little ways that the studio cut corners begin to add up. There is no reason to defend this practice.

"The cheaper the game begins to feel".

So you're saying that riding on the Raptor, Jackal and Griffon feel the same to you? Because honestly, they don't to me. Let's forget that the reason you are using a particular mount is because of it's abilities (brilliant design move by ANET btw), but when I'm on a Raptor it feels way different than Jackal or Griffon.

Am I surprised to hear that the Warclaw uses the same rig as Griffon? Nope. Does it feel that way when I'm riding it? Nope, at least not to me. So why does it matter that they are recycling tech to produce it?

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@"gateless gate.8406" said:I'm surprised yet unsurprised at the apologists in this thread. What if the jackal, griffon, and raptor all had the same run animations? That would make them much less interesting, and would certainly not impart the sense of quality that those mounts currently do. Animations are extremely important in infusing a creature/character with its unique personality. Additionally, re-using animations for something as "in your face" as a mount (ie, a creature you're going to be staring at for hours) indicates corner cutting/a lack of investment from the studio. And we haven't even touched on the poorly "clipped" animation loop in the warclaw's run (there's a very obvious and jarring cut or jump in its run cycle).

This problem exists on a sliding scale. The more corners that are cut when developing content, the cheaper the game begins to feel. No, this specific corner cutting on the warclaw will not be the death of GW2, obviously, but over time, all the little ways that the studio cut corners begin to add up. There is no reason to defend this practice.

Game developer here, not affiliated with ANet. It would be utterly ridiculous to not use an existing rig for a model with similar characteristics! It is certainly not corner cutting. Would you for example, expect the internal components of a car to be completely rebuilt from scratch on a piece by piece basis with each new yearly model? Of course not. The body work looks different, but the engine/transmission/4 wheels etc will be similar. That's a good analogy for modelling in games - the basic skeleton and animations to which the skin is attached is the same for models sharing similar characteristics. There may be occasional differences, but to rebuild a rig and its animations for each model is a waste of time and absolutely not befitting a triple A game developer, or any developer for that matter.

[Trise.2865]

No. It's a "re-skinned" [literally any cat in-game], which the Griffon also used.

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"gateless gate.8406" said:I'm surprised yet unsurprised at the apologists in this thread. What if the jackal, griffon, and raptor all had the same run animations? That would make them much less interesting, and would certainly not impart the sense of quality that those mounts currently do. Animations are extremely important in infusing a creature/character with its unique personality. Additionally, re-using animations for something as "in your face" as a mount (ie, a creature you're going to be staring at for hours) indicates corner cutting/a lack of investment from the studio. And we haven't even touched on the poorly "clipped" animation loop in the warclaw's run (there's a very obvious and jarring cut or jump in its run cycle).

This problem exists on a sliding scale. The more corners that are cut when developing content, the cheaper the game begins to feel. No, this specific corner cutting on the warclaw will not be the death of GW2,

obviously

, but over time, all the little ways that the studio cut corners begin to add up. There is no reason to defend this practice.

"The cheaper the game begins to feel".

So you're saying that riding on the Raptor, Jackal and Griffon feel the same to you? Because honestly, they don't to me. Let's forget that the reason you are using a particular mount is because of it's abilities (brilliant design move by ANET btw), but when I'm on a Raptor it feels way different than Jackal or Griffon.

Am I surprised to hear that the Warclaw uses the same rig as Griffon? Nope.

Does it feel that way when I'm riding it? Nope, at least not to me.

So why does it matter that they are recycling tech to produce it?

Agreed - they don't feel the same. The Warclaw has the feel of a strong, pondering beast. The subtle things, like the footfall sounds, the deep resonating growl, the splayed paws when it pounces, all contribute to the Warclaw's uniqueness.

[LucianDK.8615]

Like in wow too, people throw around reskins with reckless abandon, having no idea of using the term correctly. Skin is just a skin, different appearance with same model. Whereas the skeleton could be borrowed for another model and giving it a similar appearance.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

@"LucianDK.8615" said:Like in wow too, people throw around reskins with reckless abandon, having no idea of using the term correctly. Skin is just a skin, different appearance with same model. Whereas the skeleton could be borrowed for another model and giving it a similar appearance.

It triggers me, another often miss-used term is "lag". If your framerate is low, you aren't lagging, you have a low framerate. If your ping to the server is huge, then you may be lagging. Hnggg!

[Nightshade.2570]

We did not have to pay for the new mount. It was free. After POF was launched any new mounts we are given for free are pretty nice icing on the cake. So I approve of them being sensible when it comes to time and resources.

WvW got an influx of people that it badly needed. People I am sure bought the new skins for this mount,(though many did not as well) which gives me hope that they will develop in this area (WvW)further in the future.

[DKRathalos.9625]

Reskin? Err.... you know if want to tell reskin probably it's closer to jackal, I mean that warclaw couldn't even fly.

[ROMANG.1903]

@nosleepdemon.1368 said:

@"gateless gate.8406" said:I'm surprised yet unsurprised at the apologists in this thread. What if the jackal, griffon, and raptor all had the same run animations? That would make them much less interesting, and would certainly not impart the sense of quality that those mounts currently do. Animations are extremely important in infusing a creature/character with its unique personality. Additionally, re-using animations for something as "in your face" as a mount (ie, a creature you're going to be staring at for hours) indicates corner cutting/a lack of investment from the studio. And we haven't even touched on the poorly "clipped" animation loop in the warclaw's run (there's a very obvious and jarring cut or jump in its run cycle).

This problem exists on a sliding scale. The more corners that are cut when developing content, the cheaper the game begins to feel. No, this specific corner cutting on the warclaw will not be the death of GW2,

obviously

, but over time, all the little ways that the studio cut corners begin to add up. There is no reason to defend this practice.

Game developer here, not affiliated with ANet. It would be utterly ridiculous to

not

use an existing rig for a model with similar characteristics! It is certainly not corner cutting. Would you for example, expect the internal components of a car to be completely rebuilt from scratch on a piece by piece basis with each new yearly model? Of course not. The body work looks different, but the engine/transmission/4 wheels etc will be similar. That's a good analogy for modelling in games - the basic skeleton and animations to which the skin is attached is the same for models sharing similar characteristics. There may be occasional differences, but to rebuild a rig and its animations for each model is a waste of time and absolutely not befitting a triple A game developer, or any developer for that matter.

Except the Warclaw is not a car. It takes a few minutes only to see that the model is off. The animations aren't natural, the feline isn't gracious. The jump animation is just the griffon's jump animation sped up, which is blatantly obvious because the whole thing was animated with a certain speed in mind. The armor isn't there to make it look cool, it's there to hide the body of the mount, because without it the poor quality would become obvious even in the trailer (again, look at the face of the Outrider. It screams "kill me"). I am totally okay for reusing models, but not for something as present and permanent as a mount (hence why I am okay with Aurene using the Griffon's rig or dwarves using the norn's). Mounts need their own models and animations.

[ROMANG.1903]

@TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"gateless gate.8406" said:I'm surprised yet unsurprised at the apologists in this thread. What if the jackal, griffon, and raptor all had the same run animations? That would make them much less interesting, and would certainly not impart the sense of quality that those mounts currently do. Animations are extremely important in infusing a creature/character with its unique personality. Additionally, re-using animations for something as "in your face" as a mount (ie, a creature you're going to be staring at for hours) indicates corner cutting/a lack of investment from the studio. And we haven't even touched on the poorly "clipped" animation loop in the warclaw's run (there's a very obvious and jarring cut or jump in its run cycle).

This problem exists on a sliding scale. The more corners that are cut when developing content, the cheaper the game begins to feel. No, this specific corner cutting on the warclaw will not be the death of GW2,

obviously

, but over time, all the little ways that the studio cut corners begin to add up. There is no reason to defend this practice.

"The cheaper the game begins to feel".

So you're saying that riding on the Raptor, Jackal and Griffon feel the same to you? Because honestly, they don't to me. Let's forget that the reason you are using a particular mount is because of it's abilities (brilliant design move by ANET btw), but when I'm on a Raptor it feels way different than Jackal or Griffon.

Am I surprised to hear that the Warclaw uses the same rig as Griffon? Nope.

Does it feel that way when I'm riding it? Nope, at least not to me.

So why does it matter that they are recycling tech to produce it?

Agreed - they don't feel the same. The Warclaw has the feel of a strong, pondering beast. The subtle things, like the footfall sounds, the deep resonating growl, the splayed paws when it pounces, all contribute to the Warclaw's uniqueness.

If by "uniqueness" you mean that the griffon has the exact same proportions and animations... To me they feel pretty mutch the same. Excpet the Warclaw feels like a cheap version of it, slower, without flight, without any face animation making the mount look alive, without even the decensy of moving like a feline.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Rubi Bayer.8493 , sometimes salvage and fork what is already done leads to great things :}

pitty balance isnt forked ... :} from better days, wich are....

ahhahahahahaa, soz but i could not hold myself for a balance joke..

[Karnasis.6892]

If by "uniqueness" you mean that the griffon has the exact same proportions and animations... To me they feel pretty mutch the same. Excpet the Warclaw feels like a cheap version of it, slower, without flight, without any face animation making the mount look alive, without even the decensy of moving like a feline.

Because it HAS to be totally different and totally new just to appease a small amount of the player base or otherwise it's awful. It plays well, looks good, does indeed have unique animations and sound effects. The ONLY similarities might be the moving animation and the rig used. Well damn lets pull the pitchforks out and attack A.Net for something so minor.

And considering it's a mount FOR WVW of all places, where there are no other mounts in the game mode to compare it to for game play purposes, who cares? It's purpose should be more important than what it looks like.

[Ulyssean.1709]

@"Karnasis.6892" said:

If by "uniqueness" you mean that the griffon has the exact same proportions and animations... To me they feel pretty mutch the same. Excpet the Warclaw feels like a cheap version of it, slower, without flight, without any face animation making the mount look alive, without even the decensy of moving like a feline.

Because it HAS to be totally different and totally new just to appease a small amount of the player base or otherwise it's awful. It plays well, looks good, does indeed have unique animations and sound effects. The ONLY similarities might be the moving animation and the rig used. Well kitten lets pull the pitchforks out and attack A.Net for something so minor.

And considering it's a mount FOR WVW of all places, where there are no other mounts in the game mode to compare it to for game play purposes, who cares? It's purpose should be more important than what it looks like.

As far as I can see, nobody is attacking Anet. I think it's fair to say that in 18 months the only new mounts is the beetle that was supposed to ship with PoF and a very "rough-around-the-edges" griffon reskin. It ties in nicely with profits going down, mismanagement of resources at Anet and massive lay-offs, you know?Some people are happy with standards going down and others are not, it's all good until the next round of lay-offs.

[Karnasis.6892]

As far as I can see, nobody is attacking Anet. I think it's fair to say that in 18 months the only new mounts is the beetle that was supposed to ship with PoF and a very "rough-around-the-edges" griffon reskin. It ties in nicely with profits going down, mismanagement of resources at Anet and massive lay-offs, you know?Some people are happy with standards going down and others are not, it's all good until the next round of lay-offs.

See I'm not seeing the standards going down just because they again, reused assets. A practice that every game company does. Also, the animation is fine, it just seems like a group of players seem to want to be super nitpicky about it. Does it get you from Point A to Point B in WvW, also have a functional engage skill, new animations movement and idle animations, and does it sound like a cat? If so, what's the problem?

The problem is perception. Many of the players in this forum feel it had to be wholly unique (which, btw it is, since IT'S THE ONLY MOUNT IN WVW) and the only mount that is basically useless in PvE which btw we have 5 very good PvE mounts for (1 of of which was released for free). I'm honestly glad they didn't have to spend a bunch of money on something when they already had the groundwork in place and could build off that. Work smarter, not harder

[Phineas Drayke.6381]

I have no problem with using existing rigs/animations/others...I just think the griffon rig does not match the warclaw. It's a feline and it does not feel feline at all. The movements work perfect for the griffon or Aurene.They don't work as nicely on the Warclaw in my opinion. I still got it and the 2000 gem pack because I'm a sucker for mounts and diversity.Reusing assets is ok but maybe there are more fitting assets to be used?

I'm still crying everytime I respec daredevil and see those awful (hammer) staff animations...

[TarkaPop.4685]

I thought it looks a bit like a Dog of Fo (Chinese Guardian Lion), maybe to appeal to the Chinese market...

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@"Karnasis.6892" said:

As far as I can see, nobody is attacking Anet. I think it's fair to say that in 18 months the only new mounts is the beetle that was supposed to ship with PoF and a very "rough-around-the-edges" griffon reskin. It ties in nicely with profits going down, mismanagement of resources at Anet and massive lay-offs, you know?Some people are happy with standards going down and others are not, it's all good until the next round of lay-offs.

See I'm not seeing the standards going down just because they again, reused assets. A practice that every game company does. Also, the animation is fine, it just seems like a group of players seem to want to be super nitpicky about it. Does it get you from Point A to Point B in WvW, also have a functional engage skill, new animations movement and idle animations, and does it sound like a cat? If so, what's the problem?

The problem is perception. Many of the players in this forum feel it had to be wholly unique (which, btw it is, since IT'S THE ONLY MOUNT IN WVW) and the only mount that is basically useless in PvE which btw we have 5 very good PvE mounts for (1 of of which was released for free). I'm honestly glad they didn't have to spend a bunch of money on something when they already had the groundwork in place and could build off that. Work smarter, not harder

I don't think anyone expects the Warclaw to be a totally new developed mount, there would of always been some reuse within the skelly, but what players would of liked to see is something a little more polished.If we take your "well it gets you from Point A to point B in wvw, does not matter what it looks like or how it was modelled.." - yeah - NO!ANET could of just modelled a chunk of dirt that moves then if we take your view.. cos ya know, WvW… sshheeshshSure it moves, and it has a half decent animation for its battle maul and personally I am not all that bothered that it is modelled on the Griffon.. but when you quickly throw a set of skins out that has nothing more than copy paste colour changes to it, that does smell cheap, I mean how long did it take to ink in the Mad Kings imagery over the existing skins. The mount pack essentially has 1 skin that reveals the poor proportioning and puur meaningless (sorry had to put a pun in) another that gives some over the top shiny eyes, the rest are just essentially copy paste colour changes, which we could do ourselves less the little mad king face.That kind of effort only gets you so far and yeah some will buy it but many others wont. Maybe they should of offered them individually, but I think we all know why they didn't

[Bloodstealer.5978]

EDIT - The word meaningless in my post above is a typo and should read "menacing".. but ya know Forum bugs still not being fixed so cant edit stuff out.

[Warobaz.9543]

Honestly, with what we learned about the company these past weeks, it shouldn't surprise anyone that it's based on existing assets. Having less and less people working on the game had to have shortcomings. And since it's the first and only mount in WvW, i don't see the real problem with reused assets.

The skins, though... The only one I'd be inclined to buy, were it available as a single purchase, is the branded one, because i have the branded pack for the other mounts, but the entire warclaw pack ? nah, thanks i'll pass

[hugo.4705]

One of the greatest issue is the rig itself/ the animations. Why using the gryphon rig which is a dragon/wyvern one to simplifly for a FELINE, no sense. In regard of re-using asset it's okay if it's chosen well, why not using one from a ranger pet? Snow leopardo or whatever felines? Even the animation feels very bad, like if the mount is just a statue without soul.

I don't want to be arrogant but I'm very disapointed, this isn't a mount, it's a rushed work. If you don't want to make a mount simply don't make it. I feel very bad for the artists that were "maybe" forced to rush the mount, even the pack without any love, joy, pleasure put in it. Would have been better to wait more, develloping a REAL pack. I would feel ashamed giving a rushed work even in school. A lot of great artists are within Anet, but I feel like they can't show their talent sadly. You have a difference between, reusing assets randomly and reusing them correctly: cf sandswept isles: the re-uses doesn't feel odd at all. Here I just see a dead cat gryphon without any charm or soul. The skin is okay, but waited for way far more from the pack.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

It is true that developers reuse assets relatively often to save time and resources. It is even a point of pride for some devs when they manage to create something unique looking from an existing asset, with none being the wiser. That's the thing though, it's fine to do that as long as the average Joe gamer remains clueless about it. The moment I saw the mount moving in game, I could tell it was the griffon. After I checked map chat I could see I wasn't the only one. It's hardly game breaking and for me personally not too much of an issue, but it's always a bad look. Which is surprising to me since GW2 often finds inventive ways to reuse its assets, some of the LS maps are prime examples of this if you look hard enough.

Another example I remember are the older Dragon Age games by Bioware.The first one had many assets being reused but cleverly done, with the game being universally acclaimed. The second Dragon Age did the same but the reuse was glaringly obvious with both players and critics ripping Bioware for it. Sometimes player perception makes all the difference.

[lezbefriends.7516]

This also sends a message that content released in between expansions, such as this "reskinned griffon," is going to be of lower quality than content shipped with an expansion, where we’ve seen 5 "unique" mounts. In other words the expansion team is better, and we need them back as soon as possible... only there isn't going to be an expansion anytime soon, so the current dev/LS team is going to be ruining the game with their bad taste in design, as shown here.

It doesn't help matters that this week's update is - oh boy - new mount skins! I'm no longer surprised that Guild Wars 2 wasn't even nominated for best MMO by Gamers' Choice. I may just call it quits now.