Elementalist: too many bad and "meh" abilities

[Ruufio.1496]

I wish it didn't because it'd be a nice change of pace from engineer. Too many bad and "meh" abilities.

Make conjures like kits, then it won't suck so much.

[Zexanima.7851]

@"Ruufio.1496" said:I wish it didn't because it'd be a nice change of pace from engineer. Too many bad and "meh" abilities.

Make conjures like kits, then it won't suck so much.

I just started really learning elementalist and I have to say I feel like it's the other way around. With most ele abilites I feel like I have something useful I can do with it as where engi it feels like a lot of my abillites are just useless junk

[Auburner.6945]

On elememtalist; your weapon skills are more useful than utilities. For engineer, it's mostly the other way round.

Conjures can't be like kits because the damage by then will get demolished and with such high cooldowns, conjures would be literally useless given that the other skills on the conjures are quite trash and all of them have channeling.

What makes the too many abilities somehow useless are the trait lines, they are non-universal and you're locked into the attunements that you specialized in because that's where all the benefits exist. This makes ele with such high cooldowns that were introduced with 4 attunements (more skills, more cds, less damage per skill) feel so underwhelming from how it was supposed to have all things present and the ability to change themselves mid-combat, to camping 2 attunements because the trait lines are awful.

Elementalist is weak because its kit (4 attunements) cannot be used to its full-est as 2 attunements, sometimes 1, are only useful per build. You can compare it to making trait lines, each designated to a weapon, and such trait lines exist on other classes.

[MyPuppy.8970]

To add what Auburner said:

Ele's main mechanic is 4 attunements but they offer nothing more than twice as much weapon skills than other classes.Said skills are already balanced by having longer cd, much longer cast times, reduced effects and damage.Traiting those skills and mechanic is spread over 4 traitlines so you can trait at most only 75% of your arsenal and even then the effect kicks in only when you attune to a specific element. In practice that means even if you trait for 3 elements, you mostly play with only one traitline at a time. That's why Arcane is so forever mandatory (with being the only reliable source of protection) thus no one ever plays 3 elements.Ele's specific skills [auras] are spread over all weapon sets except for Sword and Scepter.[auras] traits are spread over all traitlines besides having already short duration + icd + consequent cd.

Can you see a pattern?Everything about ele is diluted. From the micro level of the skills themselves to the macro level of your build.No wonder the profession feels inefficient, no skill feels impactful.

Maybe that's why it's fun playing it. It's all about giving everything you have.

Edit: And to spice it up you also have to build for your survivability. Because why not having lowest stats of all professions since we're at it.

Edit 2 : Oh and let's also make the weapons do hybrid damage so it's neither good at power nor condi.

[rudyboysilva.6804]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:To add what Auburner said:

Ele's main mechanic is 4 attunements but they offer nothing more than twice as much weapon skills than other classes.Said skills are already balanced by having longer cd, much longer cast times, reduced effects and damage.Traiting those skills and mechanic is spread over 4 traitlines so you can trait at most only 75% of your arsenal and even then the effect kicks in only when you attune to a specific element. In practice that means even if you trait for 3 elements, you mostly play with only one traitline at a time. That's why Arcane is so forever mandatory (with being the only reliable source of protection) thus no one ever plays 3 elements.Ele's specific skills [auras] are spread over all weapon sets except for Sword and Scepter.[auras] traits are spread over all traitlines besides having already short duration + icd + consequent cd.

Can you see a pattern?Everything about ele is diluted. From the micro level of the skills themselves to the macro level of your build.No wonder the profession feels inefficient, no skill feels impactful.

Maybe that's why it's fun playing it. It's all about giving everything you have.

Edit: And to spice it up you also have to build for your survivability. Because why not having lowest stats of all professions since we're at it.

Edit 2 : Oh and let's also make the weapons do hybrid damage so it's neither good at power nor condi.

THIS! I burnt out, and left the game in 2014. I just came back 3 days ago cause I just love this class out of every mmo I played. 5 years later, the class sucks honestly, lol. I'm saying this about my favorite class, the only class I played in this game for two years straight. The class really really sucks and it bums me out. It used to be the best, and most versatile at everything. Bleh.

[Axl.8924]

ele is very strong in pve its just the conjures have a long cooldown.

I could see lowering the cd of conjures because it is very high..

[Axl.8924]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@rudyboysilva.6804 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:To add what Auburner said:

Ele's main mechanic is 4 attunements but they offer nothing more than twice as much weapon skills than other classes.Said skills are already balanced by having longer cd, much longer cast times, reduced effects and damage.Traiting those skills and mechanic is spread over 4 traitlines so you can trait at most only 75% of your arsenal and even then the effect kicks in only when you attune to a specific element. In practice that means even if you trait for 3 elements, you mostly play with only one traitline at a time. That's why Arcane is so forever mandatory (with being the only reliable source of protection) thus no one ever plays 3 elements.Ele's specific skills [auras] are spread over all weapon sets except for Sword and Scepter.[auras] traits are spread over all traitlines besides having already short duration + icd + consequent cd.

Can you see a pattern?Everything about ele is diluted. From the micro level of the skills themselves to the macro level of your build.No wonder the profession feels inefficient, no skill feels impactful.

Maybe that's why it's fun playing it. It's all about giving everything you have.

Edit: And to spice it up you also have to build for your survivability. Because why not having lowest stats of all professions since we're at it.

Edit 2 : Oh and let's also make the weapons do hybrid damage so it's neither good at power nor condi.

THIS! I burnt out, and left the game in 2014. I just came back 3 days ago cause I just love this class out of every mmo I played. 5 years later, the class sucks honestly, lol. I'm saying this about my favorite class, the only class I played in this game for two years straight. The class really really sucks and it bums me out. It used to be the best, and most versatile at everything. Bleh.

Half of these are fixed though. Playing for 3 days and saying that it sucks says more about your skill that the class itself. If it used to be the best then most people complaining sucked anyway because they got carried by an op class, which is still the csse, but with other classes which are easy to play. Ele is not as easy to pick up as most of other classes so you're struggling to adapt now.

Elite specs didn't even exist back then and most core classes are trash without one anyway.

I agree, some things have greatly improved since last patch in august or july can't remember. Overall core ele is well balanced and doesn't abuse unfun spammy and passive mechanics. There are still some issues (useless earth line, clunky staff), but it's quite manageable. Other classes just need as much trade-offs as ele does.

The add of damage in water trait was a very nice touch adding viability. I do wish necro could get some overhauls this way instead of pidgeon holing them into one area.

I think you put it well i think having core be solid enough that its not overpowered and gimmicky but solid enough to function is a good sign of class design.

[rudyboysilva.6804]

@Axl.8924 said:ele is very strong in pve its just the conjures have a long cooldown.

I could see lowering the cd of conjures because it is very high..

Hmm... maybe it's the cooldown times? I gotta go read the patch notes; it's gonna bug me till I figure it out. Again, I haven't played in years, but the initial game I put in over 1k hours on mostly wvw and pvp. I'm NOT saying the time spent to say that I'm awesome, but more to give the context of: if you spend that much time on something, you can tell when something big changed years later.

[steki.1478]

@rudyboysilva.6804 said:

@Axl.8924 said:ele is very strong in pve its just the conjures have a long cooldown.

I could see lowering the cd of conjures because it is very high..

Hmm... maybe it's the cooldown times? I gotta go read the patch notes; it's gonna bug me till I figure it out. Again, I haven't played in years, but the initial game I put in over 1k hours on mostly wvw and pvp. I'm NOT saying the time spent to say that I'm awesome, but more to give the context of: if you spend that much time on something, you can tell when something big changed years later.

Conjured weapons used to have 15 charges, 60 seconds and 60 sec duration. Now they have no charges, they have 60 sec cooldown, but 30 second duration. You never even used those 15 charges in any build so it ended up being a big nerf because you have a lot less time to pick up 2nd conjured weapon. On top of that they nerfed multi-hit skills to do less damage each hit on the same target which is beyond stupid.

[Wraistlin.6072]

@"MyPuppy.8970" said:To add what Auburner said:

Ele's main mechanic is 4 attunements but they offer nothing more than twice as much weapon skills than other classes.Said skills are already balanced by having longer cd, much longer cast times, reduced effects and damage.Traiting those skills and mechanic is spread over 4 traitlines so you can trait at most only 75% of your arsenal and even then the effect kicks in only when you attune to a specific element. In practice that means even if you trait for 3 elements, you mostly play with only one traitline at a time. That's why Arcane is so forever mandatory (with being the only reliable source of protection) thus no one ever plays 3 elements.Ele's specific skills [auras] are spread over all weapon sets except for Sword and Scepter.[auras] traits are spread over all traitlines besides having already short duration + icd + consequent cd.

Can you see a pattern?Everything about ele is diluted. From the micro level of the skills themselves to the macro level of your build.No wonder the profession feels inefficient, no skill feels impactful.

Maybe that's why it's fun playing it. It's all about giving everything you have.

Edit: And to spice it up you also have to build for your survivability. Because why not having lowest stats of all professions since we're at it.

Edit 2 : Oh and let's also make the weapons do hybrid damage so it's neither good at power nor condi.

Good general summary. The only other "con" I think you could add to the list is the locking into a specific range via weapons. Most classes can weapon swap from melee to a ranged weapon. Elementalists have to decided on one or the other generally speaking (since most of the conjures are fairly weak in their current state and mechanic).

[MyPuppy.8970]

@Wraistlin.6072 said:

@"MyPuppy.8970" said:To add what Auburner said:

Ele's main mechanic is 4 attunements but they offer nothing more than twice as much weapon skills than other classes.Said skills are already balanced by having longer cd, much longer cast times, reduced effects and damage.Traiting those skills and mechanic is spread over 4 traitlines so you can trait at most only 75% of your arsenal and even then the effect kicks in only when you attune to a specific element. In practice that means even if you trait for 3 elements, you mostly play with only one traitline at a time. That's why Arcane is so forever mandatory (with being the only reliable source of protection) thus no one ever plays 3 elements.Ele's specific skills [auras] are spread over all weapon sets except for Sword and Scepter.[auras] traits are spread over all traitlines besides having already short duration + icd + consequent cd.

Can you see a pattern?Everything about ele is diluted. From the micro level of the skills themselves to the macro level of your build.No wonder the profession feels inefficient, no skill feels impactful.

Maybe that's why it's fun playing it. It's all about giving everything you have.

Edit: And to spice it up you also have to build for your survivability. Because why not having lowest stats of all professions since we're at it.

Edit 2 : Oh and let's also make the weapons do hybrid damage so it's neither good at power nor condi.

Good general summary. The only other "con" I think you could add to the list is the locking into a specific range via weapons. Most classes can weapon swap from melee to a ranged weapon. Elementalists have to decided on one or the other generally speaking (since most of the conjures are fairly weak in their current state and mechanic).

True. Although conjures a.k.a. "lol" were supposed to fill that gap.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Thumbs Up @MyPuppy.8970I would add most of utility skill are below average, or even useless, in any game mode; effects, spread by attunenements, and related traitlines are irrelevant.

[MyPuppy.8970]

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:Thumbs Up @MyPuppy.8970I would add most of utility skill are below average, or even useless, in any game mode; effects, spread by attunenements, and related traitlines are irrelevant.

That's why cantrips have always been so good: most are instant (all except healing skill and elite), and their effects (traited or not) were the same, independently from your attunement. Plus all of them are survival tools, so they can never be useless in any given spec/build, although maybe not optimized for said build/role. Useless utilities is not ele-specific though, but we sure do have a lot of them. The best utilities have always been - and still are - those with instant cast because they don't break the flow of your rotation/combo with already average to high cast time/aftercast.

[Resonance.4216]

Lowest HP and Armor in the game, very meh damage outside of very contrived situations and no change on the horizon, why Eles are being relegated to the "never picked" pile.

[frareanselm.1925]

The one thing that keeps me from playing power ele is that you need the summoned weapons for a proper rotation and picking them from the floor breaks all the fluidity of the fight. A agree with Op, a kit would be nice.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

The crazy thing is that conjures are among the more useful utilities. Just look at the cantrips and black magic. They often have long cooldowns for severely underwhelming effects.

And then look at ele elite skills. No one talks about ele elite skills because there is nothing to talk about. They are so useless that they might as well not exist. FGS was overnerfed years ago and even before that it was only good for its gimmic. Tornado locks you out of your skills and the only useful thing about tornado - the increased attributes to make lingering fields tick harder - was nerfed. I don't think the elemental was ever nerfed, but I don't remember it ever being strong either. Now that the lesser glyph can summon multiple elementals it should be stronger than the elite skill.

[Downstate.4697]

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:The crazy thing is that conjures are among the more useful utilities. Just look at the cantrips and black magic. They often have long cooldowns for severely underwhelming effects.

And then look at ele elite skills. No one talks about ele elite skills because there is nothing to talk about. They are so useless that they might as well not exist. FGS was overnerfed years ago and even before that it was only good for its gimmic. Tornado locks you out of your skills and the only useful thing about tornado - the increased attributes to make lingering fields tick harder - was nerfed. I don't think the elemental was ever nerfed, but I don't remember it ever being strong either. Now that the lesser glyph can summon multiple elementals it should be stronger than the elite skill.

The glyph elite is very strong. The water elemental is a 7k heal on a 15s cd. Fire is ok and air is meh. Earth is a tanky at least. Tornado elite hits very hard. Specifically the 4 skill when combined with lightning rod.

[Jski.6180]

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:The crazy thing is that conjures are among the more useful utilities. Just look at the cantrips and black magic. They often have long cooldowns for severely underwhelming effects.

And then look at ele elite skills. No one talks about ele elite skills because there is nothing to talk about. They are so useless that they might as well not exist. FGS was overnerfed years ago and even before that it was only good for its gimmic. Tornado locks you out of your skills and the only useful thing about tornado - the increased attributes to make lingering fields tick harder - was nerfed. I don't think the elemental was ever nerfed, but I don't remember it ever being strong either. Now that the lesser glyph can summon multiple elementals it should be stronger than the elite skill.

The glyph elite is very strong. The water elemental is a 7k heal on a 15s cd. Fire is ok and air is meh. Earth is a tanky at least. Tornado elite hits very hard. Specifically the 4 skill when combined with lightning rod.

Pets that can die are weak in any game type. Its not important how strong there effects are as long as it can die it become worthless.

[Downstate.4697]

@Jski.6180 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:The crazy thing is that conjures are among the more useful utilities. Just look at the cantrips and black magic. They often have long cooldowns for severely underwhelming effects.

And then look at ele elite skills. No one talks about ele elite skills because there is nothing to talk about. They are so useless that they might as well not exist. FGS was overnerfed years ago and even before that it was only good for its gimmic. Tornado locks you out of your skills and the only useful thing about tornado - the increased attributes to make lingering fields tick harder - was nerfed. I don't think the elemental was ever nerfed, but I don't remember it ever being strong either. Now that the lesser glyph can summon multiple elementals it should be stronger than the elite skill.

The glyph elite is very strong. The water elemental is a 7k heal on a 15s cd. Fire is ok and air is meh. Earth is a tanky at least. Tornado elite hits very hard. Specifically the 4 skill when combined with lightning rod.

Pets that can die are weak in any game type. Its not important how strong there effects are as long as it can die it become worthless.

Water and earth elite survives fine in its own. This is the build I use and it works fine. No issues keeping elite alive its entire duration.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlJwmYeMKGJWMTZtdA-z5AfGZKB6VBYzB

I tend to use the heal in earth for protection. I tend to alternate storm glyph with earth and air. I almost always have water elite up.

[Jski.6180]

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:The crazy thing is that conjures are among the more useful utilities. Just look at the cantrips and black magic. They often have long cooldowns for severely underwhelming effects.

And then look at ele elite skills. No one talks about ele elite skills because there is nothing to talk about. They are so useless that they might as well not exist. FGS was overnerfed years ago and even before that it was only good for its gimmic. Tornado locks you out of your skills and the only useful thing about tornado - the increased attributes to make lingering fields tick harder - was nerfed. I don't think the elemental was ever nerfed, but I don't remember it ever being strong either. Now that the lesser glyph can summon multiple elementals it should be stronger than the elite skill.

The glyph elite is very strong. The water elemental is a 7k heal on a 15s cd. Fire is ok and air is meh. Earth is a tanky at least. Tornado elite hits very hard. Specifically the 4 skill when combined with lightning rod.

Pets that can die are weak in any game type. Its not important how strong there effects are as long as it can die it become worthless.

Water and earth elite survives fine in its own. This is the build I use and it works fine. No issues keeping elite alive its entire duration.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlJwmYeMKGJWMTZtdA-z5AfGZKB6VBYzB

I tend to use the heal in earth for protection. I tend to alternate storm glyph with earth and air. I almost always have water elite up.

This is why renegade and ranger sprits are not used as much. Kill able pets are just not viable in mmorpgs they are even worst with ground target aoe in both pvp/wvw and pve. All the powerful effects in the worst will not fix ele pets skill as long as they are kill able pets making it a worthless skill.

[Downstate.4697]

@Jski.6180 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@Jski.6180 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:The crazy thing is that conjures are among the more useful utilities. Just look at the cantrips and black magic. They often have long cooldowns for severely underwhelming effects.

And then look at ele elite skills. No one talks about ele elite skills because there is nothing to talk about. They are so useless that they might as well not exist. FGS was overnerfed years ago and even before that it was only good for its gimmic. Tornado locks you out of your skills and the only useful thing about tornado - the increased attributes to make lingering fields tick harder - was nerfed. I don't think the elemental was ever nerfed, but I don't remember it ever being strong either. Now that the lesser glyph can summon multiple elementals it should be stronger than the elite skill.

The glyph elite is very strong. The water elemental is a 7k heal on a 15s cd. Fire is ok and air is meh. Earth is a tanky at least. Tornado elite hits very hard. Specifically the 4 skill when combined with lightning rod.

Pets that can die are weak in any game type. Its not important how strong there effects are as long as it can die it become worthless.

Water and earth elite survives fine in its own. This is the build I use and it works fine. No issues keeping elite alive its entire duration.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlJwmYeMKGJWMTZtdA-z5AfGZKB6VBYzB

I tend to use the heal in earth for protection. I tend to alternate storm glyph with earth and air. I almost always have water elite up.

This is why renegade and ranger sprits are not used as much. Kill able pets are just not viable in mmorpgs they are even worst with ground target aoe in both pvp/wvw and pve. All the powerful effects in the worst will not fix ele pets skill as long as they are kill able pets making it a worthless skill.

If you say so

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:The crazy thing is that conjures are among the more useful utilities. Just look at the cantrips and black magic. They often have long cooldowns for severely underwhelming effects.

And then look at ele elite skills. No one talks about ele elite skills because there is nothing to talk about. They are so useless that they might as well not exist. FGS was overnerfed years ago and even before that it was only good for its gimmic. Tornado locks you out of your skills and the only useful thing about tornado - the increased attributes to make lingering fields tick harder - was nerfed. I don't think the elemental was ever nerfed, but I don't remember it ever being strong either. Now that the lesser glyph can summon multiple elementals it should be stronger than the elite skill.

The glyph elite is very strong. The water elemental is a 7k heal on a 15s cd. Fire is ok and air is meh. Earth is a tanky at least. Tornado elite hits very hard. Specifically the 4 skill when combined with lightning rod.

During the time it takes to cast fire elemental plus aftercast you can deal more damage with your other skills than the fire elemental deals over its entire lifetime. The earth elemental could be used as a meat shield if it had a way of getting aggro. So far it can only protect you from non-piercing projectiles. It protects you from neither melee nor aoe. And the water elemental doesn't scale with your healing power, so that's pretty useless too.

Again, the tornado locks you out of your other skills. So it isn't just a dps loss, but also locks you out of all your defensive abilities. I've tried the tornado in serpent's ire for cc, but the long cooldown makes it a one-trick-pony there. I've only found it usefull underwater due to trident having only one useful aoe and being meh in general.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I will say this, the "Conjured Weapons" system is badly implemented. The main reason no one wants to use them, similar to Engi, is that you can't skin any of the weapons, so you have to look like a newbie running around with rock shield if you want a shield.

The skills themselves actually aren't that bad.

The time limit also hurts them alot, it reduces them to just niches to fill a rotation. I can understand that the weapons you drop have a time limit, but the weapons you equip automatically shouldn't have that limit; the skills already have cooldowns to keep them balanced.

I've mostly given up on overhauls to any kind of systems like this. Plus the last one (Spirit Weapons) was just bad.

[Yasai.3549]

Ele's conjures really need work yea :/I like Lightning Hammer and Flame Axe, but it just makes me sadlief.

[Peter.3901]

May i ask for Arena... who would want to write a code with elementalist when you can press two keys with guardian to do the same damage (or even more)?

Elementalist/Weaver has no mechanic, in theory you would have four weapons, but these 4 weapons are not worth a weapon in the hands of other classes out there.

And the staff is a total joke outside of WvW.

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:The crazy thing is that conjures are among the more useful utilities. Just look at the cantrips and black magic. They often have long cooldowns for severely underwhelming effects.

And then look at ele elite skills. No one talks about ele elite skills because there is nothing to talk about. They are so useless that they might as well not exist. FGS was overnerfed years ago and even before that it was only good for its gimmic. Tornado locks you out of your skills and the only useful thing about tornado - the increased attributes to make lingering fields tick harder - was nerfed. I don't think the elemental was ever nerfed, but I don't remember it ever being strong either. Now that the lesser glyph can summon multiple elementals it should be stronger than the elite skill.

The glyph elite is very strong. The water elemental is a 7k heal on a 15s cd. Fire is ok and air is meh. Earth is a tanky at least. Tornado elite hits very hard. Specifically the 4 skill when combined with lightning rod.

I wish I could agree with you, too bad that in pvp the glyph doesn't last 10 seconds without being blown up by any AoE damage ...

Tornado is the only usable elite for us in pvp.