If charr and human went to war, which faction would support which side?

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@norbes.3620 said:assuming the leagons were united again under the khan-ur and the flame leagion joins back into the other high legions. why should their magicians have so much Impact compared to human magicians?the humans are a magical culture and the flame Legion wich got the most Magicians in the high Legion is at the Moment pretty beat up without much Option to regain strengths so i would say that this Point is sold to devinitys reach

Here was my response in page 2 of this discussion;

Even if magic is distrusted, it doesn't really change the fact that the Charr posses magical prowess that can rival the humans. In an event of a Human-Charr war, it's not unlikely that the High Legion will issue a truce with the Fire Legion and employ their magic users, even as fodder in the front line. The Fire Legion hates humans more than they hate the High Legion and more than likely will be glad to cooperate.

However if this event unfolds, the Fire Legion will find this as an opportunity to gain power proving that the alliance with the humans was folly from the very beginning that the judgment of the High Legion is flawed. This will rally more Charr under the leadership of the Fire Legion putting them in command.

This is a scenario that the Charr Legion I assumed have already considered, that a war with the human would mean the return of the Fire Legion in the position of power. This is why the Legions, even grudgingly, agreed to make peace with the humans. The alternative is not something they want.

I disagree that the points will be towards the humans because they are faith based magics. Knowing that human gods have left, their faith will be shaken and their morale will be low. As for the Charr magic casters, they are willing to use anything in their power to win and they have displayed that in the Searing of Ascalon.

EDIT: typo

[Telwyn.1630]

• PC is charr and joins the pro war anti human faction cuz of the oath sworn to the shinging blade wich may or may not be still intact (temporary death in PoF) wicjh could deal a huge blow against human Morales.

• PC is charr but against the war ant takes Opposition to the orders of the high Legion. this would cause quit a ruckus for the charr

• PC is charr against the legions reasoning for the war and joins the human side. this would definetly have an even heavier Impact

• PC is Human but dont join any side only try to calm both sides down

• PC is Human and joins the humans cuz disapproves the charr reasons - could cause some stir cuz some ex pact soldiers in the Legion might not want to fight the PC

• PC is human and joins the charr cuz dissapproves human reasons -> fatal blow against the human side

*human side considered as kryta

My human character Tarwin hero of Ascalon also helped so many of the charr (npc's) with the problems they were facing and showed the charr respect, and in my story Tarwin was raised by a charr Forster mother who loves Tarwin very much, added that Tarwin grew up loveing the female charr and thinking their cute. And Tarwin is responsible for ending most of the problems the Charr Legions were facing so yeah untold numbers of charr well not want to fight Tarwin if he is force to fight against the charr Legions. Tarwin also well try and get the charr to see that they do not have to be his enemy's he help them end the threats to the Legions and they repay that by betraying treaty. This would get alot of charr to be hesitant in fighting whats left of the kingdom of Ascalon and to side with Tarwin and or stand down and not fight in the war.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Not even close. Even if the Blood Legion prefers fighting hand-to-hand and use giant devourers, their culture as whole didn't just rely on that alone. They also constructed tanks and modern weaponry and armors. Compare to the Luxon, they installed a cannon on the back of a turtle incapable of targeting anyone inside a 100 yard range.Blood Legion don't build tanks. Only Icon Legion does...

That's not what I would call "combat-ready". Nerf guns can cause mayhem and chaos too. They are toys for a reason.I feel like you've never tried to solo malfunctioning princess dolls before.

Besides, "combat-ready" is not important there. The fact that they can make fine machinery is. On a larger scale, miniatures can easily become threats - see the megasized miniatures in the Mythwright raid.

As long as there is no embargo policy, peace or war, traders will trade. Merchants will sell their goods to whoever wants to buy until a government body tells them not to. Goods are traveling between Ascalon and Kryta despite the treaty. Also in trades, there is always the middle man. The Watchknight production team can procure the parts from a clock merchant and the clock merchant buys them from the Charrs.

Nations at war don't trade with each other. Charr merchants didn't trade with humans and vice versa. And like all things in charr society, their merchants are dictated by the government - it's not a free capitalist society, neither of the two are, in fact. Goods traveled between Ebonhawke and Human Kryta, or Charr Ascalon and Lion's Arch, but never Charr Ascalon and Human Kryta.

And no, it is not obvious that Uzolan did not build nor design his golem; yes there is asuran tech influences but as shown by Uzolan's workshop he is fully capable of making his own devices too. Especially seeing how there is no aesthetic similarity between it and asuratech besides animation and overall bipedal form. And the resemblance to the steam creatures is in the material used, not the shape of the golem. Look under the plated parts like the abdomen and back and you get the same kind of tubing design seen in steam creature. Most likely scenario is that Uzolan used Caudecus and Separatists to reverse engineer the Steam creatures for the golem, then the royal engineers used its blueprints (since the golem itself is destroyed in explorable mode) to inspire the Watchknights.

Lets say, ok, Uzolan did design and made all those, that would only make him a Tony Stark of the GW2 human race. It doesn't necessarily mean that every engineers and scientists working for the Stark Industries are capable of creating an Ironman suit...in a cave with scraps.

That's not what I said. Try rereading, mister hyperbole.

Also, why would a tank squadron be capable of creating fine machinery? There's a world of difference between robotics and vehicles, and all charr have shown to be good for are vehicles and siege engines. They've never once showed capabilities or interest in making robotics/golems.

I disagree. Automated turret system (Engineer Turrets) and voice command responding drone system (Scrappers) with seek and destroy programming is more than enough to show the capabilities of the Charr. In fact, according to the Lore, it was the Iron Legion who brought engineering to Tyria.

Neither of your examples came from the Gear warband or another tank squadron. Furthermore, while mechanically turrets are automated, given their asthetics I'm questionable if that's the case in lore too. And scrapper gryos aren't voice commanded or necessarily with seek and destroy programming - they seem more much like modern drones, which are remote controlled; on top of that, the scrapper is multi-racial development.

Iron Legion made engineers front line battle ready. Engineering existed among humans, dwarves, and asura long before the charr got it. In fact, most charr engineering is based off of dwarven engineering (the inventors of black powder and siege weaponry). But engineers among humans and asura weren't trained for front line combat.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Not even close. Even if the Blood Legion prefers fighting hand-to-hand and use giant devourers, their culture as whole didn't just rely on that alone. They also constructed tanks and modern weaponry and armors. Compare to the Luxon, they installed a cannon on the back of a turtle incapable of targeting anyone inside a 100 yard range.Blood Legion don't build tanks. Only Icon Legion does...

I said, "their culture as whole".

That's not what I would call "combat-ready". Nerf guns can cause mayhem and chaos too. They are toys for a reason.I feel like you've never tried to solo malfunctioning princess dolls before.

For the record, that's Asuran tech. So it's possible that even toys made by Asura can be deadly. This only further reinforce the difference between Asura and Human ingenuity.

Besides, "combat-ready" is not important there. The fact that they can make fine machinery is. On a larger scale, miniatures can easily become threats - see the megasized miniatures in the Mythwright raid.

We are talking about the capability of human inventing machinery that is combat-ready and not the existence of Chucky's made by other non-human species.

As long as there is no embargo policy, peace or war, traders will trade. Merchants will sell their goods to whoever wants to buy until a government body tells them not to. Goods are traveling between Ascalon and Kryta despite the treaty. Also in trades, there is always the middle man. The Watchknight production team can procure the parts from a clock merchant and the clock merchant buys them from the Charrs.

Nations at war don't trade with each other. Charr merchants didn't trade with humans and vice versa. And like all things in charr society, their merchants are dictated by the government - it's not a free capitalist society, neither of the two are, in fact. Goods traveled between Ebonhawke and Human Kryta, or Charr Ascalon and Lion's Arch, but never Charr Ascalon and Human Kryta.

As I said, there's always a middle man, aka Evon Gnashblade. Goods traveling between Ascalon and Kryta goes through Lion's Arch. Even the Asura gates are not directly connecting both cities. I never mentioned is because I thought it's a given.

And no, it is not obvious that Uzolan did not build nor design his golem; yes there is asuran tech influences but as shown by Uzolan's workshop he is fully capable of making his own devices too. Especially seeing how there is no aesthetic similarity between it and asuratech besides animation and overall bipedal form. And the resemblance to the steam creatures is in the material used, not the shape of the golem. Look under the plated parts like the abdomen and back and you get the same kind of tubing design seen in steam creature. Most likely scenario is that Uzolan used Caudecus and Separatists to reverse engineer the Steam creatures for the golem, then the royal engineers used its blueprints (since the golem itself is destroyed in explorable mode) to inspire the Watchknights.

Lets say, ok, Uzolan did design and made all those, that would only make him a Tony Stark of the GW2 human race. It doesn't necessarily mean that every engineers and scientists working for the Stark Industries are capable of creating an Ironman suit...in a cave with scraps.

That's not what I said. Try rereading, mister hyperbole.

Yes, he retrofit the golem casing design with steam tech underneath no different than Tony Stark scrapping parts to make the Mach I armor.

Even if Uzolan didn't stole the golem design (which he did stole), that would make him, and only him, a genius.

However, Uzolan's only accomplishment is making an annoying automated band that doesn't even play any music, just making noises.

Also, why would a tank squadron be capable of creating fine machinery? There's a world of difference between robotics and vehicles, and all charr have shown to be good for are vehicles and siege engines. They've never once showed capabilities or interest in making robotics/golems.

I disagree. Automated turret system (Engineer Turrets) and voice command responding drone system (Scrappers) with seek and destroy programming is more than enough to show the capabilities of the Charr. In fact, according to the Lore, it was the Iron Legion who brought engineering to Tyria.

Neither of your examples came from the Gear warband or another tank squadron. Furthermore, while mechanically turrets are automated, given their asthetics I'm questionable if that's the case in lore too. And scrapper gryos aren't voice commanded or necessarily with seek and destroy programming - they seem more much like modern drones, which are remote controlled; on top of that, the scrapper is multi-racial development.

Gear Warband is part of the Iron Legion. Scrapper are title given to Charr gladium and no, it's not a multi-racial. Only when it becomes a profession that other races where introduced to it.

The Gyros are voice activated. If you look at the skill Medic Gyro, you can order it to self-destruct.

Iron Legion made engineers front line battle ready. Engineering existed among humans, dwarves, and asura long before the charr got it. In fact, most charr engineering is based off of dwarven engineering (the inventors of black powder and siege weaponry). But engineers among humans and asura weren't trained for front line combat.

Yes, I was talking about the Engineer profession. I see the misunderstanding, I apologize, I thought the previous sentences leading to that would be clear of what I'm talking about. Not to mention, the context of the discussion is about war, not architecture. I'll make sure to be really really clear next time.

EDIT: typos

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Not even close. Even if the Blood Legion prefers fighting hand-to-hand and use giant devourers, their culture as whole didn't just rely on that alone. They also constructed tanks and modern weaponry and armors. Compare to the Luxon, they installed a cannon on the back of a turtle incapable of targeting anyone inside a 100 yard range.Blood Legion don't build tanks. Only Icon Legion does...

I said, "their culture as whole".

Neither does the Luxon culture as a whole rely on siege turtles. It's primarily the Turtle Clan that does. Your arguments against humanity is as equally invalid as applying them to charr.

That's not what I would call "combat-ready". Nerf guns can cause mayhem and chaos too. They are toys for a reason.I feel like you've never tried to solo malfunctioning princess dolls before.

For the record, that's Asuran tech. So it's possible that even toys made by Asura can be deadly. This only further reinforce the difference between Asura and Human ingenuity.

Besides, "combat-ready" is not important there. The fact that they can make fine machinery is. On a larger scale, miniatures can easily become threats - see the megasized miniatures in the Mythwright raid.

We are talking about the capability of human inventing machinery that is combat-ready and not the existence of Chucky's made by other non-human species.

Yeah, and the very same machinery that humans had worked on 250 years ago are, in modern times, being just now made by other races, and can become an issue for hardened veterans if they go haywire. This meant that if miniatures went haywire 250 years ago, they'd likely be causing the same level of issues; now humans have advanced by 250 years, and all technology becomes more sophisticated and advanced so long as the civilization making it doesn't crumble, and humanity hasn't crumbled. Ergo, human technology has become more sophisticated than 250 years ago.

As I said, there's always a middle man, aka Evon Gnashblade. Goods traveling between Ascalon and Kryta goes through Lion's Arch. Even the Asura gates are not directly connecting both cities. I never mentioned is because I thought it's a given.

There is literally zero support for your claim. In Edge of Destiny, it's outright stated that Ebonhawke traded specifically with Kryta, and Kryta did not trade with Lion's Arch on an official scale until after the events of the novel at best. Most humans would be highly questionable of purchasing goods from those who are literally their mortal enemies at the time, even through middle men. That's the perfect situation to be set up for sabotage, so much so it's practically Subterfuge and Sabotage 101.

Yes, he retrofit the golem casing design with steam tech underneath no different than Tony Stark scrapping parts to make the Mach I armor.

Even if Uzolan didn't stole the golem design (which he did stole), that would make him, and only him, a genius.

However, Uzolan's only accomplishment is making an annoying automated band that doesn't even play any music, just making noises.

So I guess me being able to make a toaster out of broken toasters by taking them apart, seeing what pieces are busted, and replacing them, makes me a genius? Because it sure as hell doesn't, as that would make every clockmaker, handyman, engineer, and other repair folks in existence geniuses.

The only thing genius level that Tony Stark did in that cave, was manage to create a miniaturized power source that others could only make the size of a full fledged room using scraps. But that is infinity compared to making a robot out of robot parts, which is what Uzolan did. What Uzolan did is what thousands of people do on a regular basis.

Also, if you did the circus storyline and went to Uzolan's workshop, there's more there to his inventions than the mechanical orchestra.

Gear Warband is part of the Iron Legion.

Not all Iron Legion are equally skilled technicians.

Scrapper are title given to Charr gladium and no, it's not a multi-racial. Only when it becomes a profession that other races where introduced to it.

Social standing of "Scrapper" and profession "scrapper" are two different things. It's like proclaiming that the wardens (sylvari armed forces) and the wardens (Echovald Forest species) are the same thing.

The Gyros are voice activated. If you look at the skill Medic Gyro, you can order it to self-destruct.

I don't think I've ever once heard my engineer speak (no way to test it now, since gyros are no longer NPC spawning skills), and looking at the skills, nothing indicates there are voice commands as orders aren't always vocal.

Iron Legion made engineers

front line battle ready

. Engineering existed among humans, dwarves, and asura long before the charr got it. In fact, most charr engineering is based off of dwarven engineering (the inventors of black powder and siege weaponry). But

engineers

among

humans

and

asura

weren't trained for front line combat.

Yes, I was talking about the Engineer profession. I see the misunderstanding, I apologize, I thought the previous sentences leading to that would be clear of what I'm talking about. Not to mention, the context of the discussion is about war, not architecture. I'll make sure to be really really clear next time.

The engineer profession came from literal non-combatant engineers. Charr didn't invent the engineering profession, they just took the job concept other races had, and made them combat ready. There's a world of difference there.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

[Narcemus.1348]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

Iz cuz hoomans dum! Hoomans no leern tu meak Beeg Buums, Chearr unly meak Beeg Buums! Hoomans dei tu Chearr Beeg Buums!

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

What a load of nonsense.

[Narcemus.1348]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

[dusanyu.4057]

Rata Sum Has noting to gain from joining either side and will stick to neutrality some Asura may Sell there services to the highest bidder

The Grove: I suspect it would be up to individual Sylvari to choose which ever side they will fight for or to stay completely out of it the Pale tree will take a Stance of nutrality simmular to Rata Sum

I will just say the Norn in this case as the way norn are strongly individualistic and out to chance there legend Individual norn will pick whatever side they feel called to seeing norm on both sides of the line is highly likely. if history repeats itself thy will allow the char ro pass across the Shiverpeaks into kryta

The combatantsKryta / Ebonhawk humanity according to lore is in a desperate condition and is pushed back. Militarily they have access to new Weaponry developed by the pact. but than so do the Charr

Charr Still in a strong position have access to Siege machines a well trained fighting force of soldiers that game mechanics ignored could easily overpower multiple humans bare handed (fight a tiger or a lion) they also have access to airship technology

The wild cardCentaurs: they HATE humans and were able to do alot of damage to the human race easy patsies

How i suspect the war would play outPhase one Charr decide to invade before they even let on that this is a intention they send a Emissary to Harathi hinterlands and provoke the Centaurs to attack causing a detraction diverting attention from phase 2

Phase 2 the charr taking advantage of the chaos march troops and materials across wayfarer foothills and Snowden drifts into Gendarrran and Queesdale enacting scorced earth burning fields and farms. The Asura wanting to stay neutral shut down the Gate and way point network in the combative nations. Thus playing into the Charr's favor for Phase 3

Phase three The Charr Blockade Divinity's reach preventing food and supply from moving in and out the charr plug any water piping for the city attempts to move supply in are met with cannon fire the Charr simply wait and allow dehydration and starvation do the work

Phase 3.5 occurring at the same time as the Siege of Divinity's Reach. the char load up airships with Blood legion units and ash spys and land them into ebonhawk, Humanity lacking the sort of cannons the char have are unable to repel the aircraft resulting in a Large force landing in the streets. the streets of turn into a warzone Ash spys taking advantage of the chayos disable the ebonhawk gates leaving the doors with open to invasion.

ultimately the war would be over in a few months

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@dusanyu.4057 said:

How i suspect the war would play outPhase one Charr decide to invade before they even let on that this is a intention they send a Emissary to Harathi hinterlands and provoke the Centaurs to attack causing a detraction diverting attention from phase 2

Even without the Charr sending an Emmissary, the Centaurs has continued their attacks on the humans. Rather, if the Charr attack the human, most of the Seraph deployed to fight the Centaurs will be recalled to Divinity's Reach. This will allow the Centaurs to retake the lands they lost increasing their numbers. Soon they will join the Charr in the attacks just because they hated the humans. In a sense, the Charrs would be the distraction.

Phase 2 the charr taking advantage of the chaos march troops and materials across wayfarer foothills and Snowden drifts into Gendarrran and Queesdale enacting scorced earth burning fields and farms. The Asura wanting to stay neutral shut down the Gate and way point network in the combative nations. Thus playing into the Charr's favor for Phase 3

I doubt this. Even though the humans lack weapons like cannons and tanks, they excel in guerilla tactics. I really doubt that they will allow the Charr to cross the Shiverpeaks unchallenged. The narrow paths of the mountains are perfect area to setup an ambush. The number of the Charr army will mean nothing in the mountain pass.

Phase three The Charr Blockade Divinity's reach preventing food and supply from moving in and out the charr plug any water piping for the city attempts to move supply in are met with cannon fire the Charr simply wait and allow dehydration and starvation do the work

Phase 3.5 occurring at the same time as the Siege of Divinity's Reach. the char load up airships with Blood legion units and ash spys and land them into ebonhawk, Humanity lacking the sort of cannons the char have are unable to repel the aircraft resulting in a Large force landing in the streets. the streets of turn into a warzone Ash spys taking advantage of the chayos disable the ebonhawk gates leaving the doors with open to invasion.

ultimately the war would be over in a few months

It's a good campaign strategy but I it would be difficult to achieve. It will take a long time, not in a few months and the Charr will starve to death before they can breach Divinity's Reach.

Not to mention, there are powerful Mesmers among the humans. They can simply eliminate the Charr army by infiltrating their ranks and destroy them from within. The mesmer can disguise as one of the commanding officer ordering a legion into an ambush, or cancelling orders for supplies, or sending troops home. Mesmers can cause a lot of chaos and before the Charr realize it, they will be fighting among themselves. That would only be the work of Kasmeer. Imagine the damage that Countess Anise can unleash, or the Queen.

[Narcemus.1348]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

I... disagree. Strenuously. While the charr were building tanks, humans were building walls that stood up to those tanks. Construction on that scale, while under constant threat of attack, takes nothing less than engineering ingenuity. Or how about the Krytan fleet before they abandoned the coasts? Massive galleons, kitted out with more cannons than anything the Iron Legion's ever made... getting that to float, let alone move with any speed, is a marvel.

Agriculture? Not only do humans have pressurized water systems, they're the only racial culture to apply them to watering crops. For that matter, they're the only racial culture to harness wind power, too. And while it's fair to deride the Mechanical 'Orchestra' as a gaudy monstrosity, it requires as much fine metalwork as any charr gun or tank. What about the dams flanking Divinity's Reach? Or the Mantle's ornate castles, built in secret in the middle of a trackless wilderness? And, while it hasn't been conclusively proven, there's reason to believe they pioneered air travel with their balloons.

Human achievement in GW2 isn't defined by their faith. There isn't even evidence that their accomplishments as a whole draw from any particular magical sophistication, although certainly that's a defining feature of many of their individual dignitaries. What we see in GW2 is a society that applies mundane engineering to a wide variety of problems, and does so successfully- in knowing and doing. Unremarkable, perhaps, in our own world, but that's a great distinguishing merit in Tyria. In that sense, even though they haven't honed their innovations towards supporting warfare the way the charr have, the watchknights are very much in keeping with the sort of solution Kryta would come up with.

(On siege weapons- Kryta does have cannons, SoS makes that quite clear, but it's equally obvious that they're not using them against the centaurs. I'm no expert, but my suspicion is that might be because trebuchets and catapults are more useful for what they're dealing with. Cannons can concentrate an unrivaled amount of force into a single point, and are a great choice for taking on fortifications like Ebonhawke, but on the defensive, against masses of infantry/cavalry? It might be better to have a weapon that can launch multiple deadly projectiles at once- they don't need to have the same force as a cannonball, after all, just enough to break a centaur.)

(Also, with the Ministry starving the war effort of funds, it can probably be said that wooden beams are cheaper than cast iron, and chunks of rock cheaper than gunpowder.)

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

[ThatOddOne.4387]

... stolen charr weapons? what?

the charr during that period of time didn't even USE cannons. they were still your stereotypical savage horde

and again, the very existence of the watchknight proves that the humans DO have those facilities, because as you say they are needed to build the watchknights, and the watchknights exist, thus the facilities to build them exist

also nothing about the watchknights says they are mass produced, mass production is not even something the modern charr can do

[norbes.3620]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

Underground facilities utilizing Magic to forge em..

just some random possible answer :)

[Narcemus.1348]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

I love that you ignore the point that I made that we obviously don't see everything that exists in Tyria in the game. I mean could you really call Kryta a kingdom if it controlled such small landmass? Only like 5-10 villages with nowhere near enough farming and agriculture to support what exists? Charr are capable of surviving as a mostly meat only society with only the few ranches we find in the world? Really? And do you honestly think only one smelter located in the middle of a city would be capable of creating all of the massive charr vehicles we see? Plus, let's be honest, do the Watchknights look anything close to charr technology? Their work is far more brutish and crude, not to say it doesn't work, but the human Watchknights look to require more finesse, more intricacy than the general charr engineer could provide, especially at mass produced levels. But this doesn't matter. You have no interest in what others have to say on the matter or what valid points they bring up. I'm done with responding to you.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@norbes.3620 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

Underground facilities utilizing Magic to forge em..

just some random possible answer :)

I actually like that answer. :)

As I've said in this thread, until ArenaNet revealed how the humans built the Watchknight, I will remain skeptic.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

I love that you ignore the point that I made that we obviously don't see everything that exists in Tyria in the game. I mean could you really call Kryta a kingdom if it controlled such small landmass? Only like 5-10 villages with nowhere near enough farming and agriculture to support what exists? Charr are capable of surviving as a mostly meat only society with only the few ranches we find in the world? Really? And do you honestly think only one smelter located in the middle of a city would be capable of creating all of the massive charr vehicles we see? Plus, let's be honest, do the Watchknights look anything close to charr technology? Their work is far more brutish and crude, not to say it doesn't work, but the

human Watchknights look to require more finesse, more intricacy

than the general charr engineer could provide, especially at mass produced levels. But this doesn't matter. You have no interest in what others have to say on the matter or what valid points they bring up. I'm done with responding to you.

Really? If that is true, then the production of each Wathknight is very expensive. If that is the case, then Kryta is super rich since we're just bashing those watchnights to scraps during the jubilee. Yes, you don't have to respond.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

I love that you ignore the point that I made that we obviously don't see everything that exists in Tyria in the game. I mean could you really call Kryta a kingdom if it controlled such small landmass? Only like 5-10 villages with nowhere near enough farming and agriculture to support what exists? Charr are capable of surviving as a mostly meat only society with only the few ranches we find in the world? Really? And do you honestly think only one smelter located in the middle of a city would be capable of creating all of the massive charr vehicles we see? Plus, let's be honest, do the Watchknights look anything close to charr technology? Their work is far more brutish and crude, not to say it doesn't work, but the

human Watchknights look to require more finesse, more intricacy

than the general charr engineer could provide, especially at mass produced levels. But this doesn't matter. You have no interest in what others have to say on the matter or what valid points they bring up. I'm done with responding to you.

Really? If that is true, then the production of each Wathknight is very expensive. If that is the case, then Kryta is super rich since we're just bashing those watchnights to scraps during the jubilee. Yes, you don't have to respond.

I mean... you saw the Pavillion, right? Everything about the Jubilee speaks to obscene amounts of money being thrown around. If you're already spending enough to turn a several hundred foot sinkhole into an elaborate, artistic arena, and the surrounding residential neighborhood into gardens, and then only use any of it for a couple festivals a year... the expense of hand-crafted automatons isn't going to slow you down any.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

I love that you ignore the point that I made that we obviously don't see everything that exists in Tyria in the game. I mean could you really call Kryta a kingdom if it controlled such small landmass? Only like 5-10 villages with nowhere near enough farming and agriculture to support what exists? Charr are capable of surviving as a mostly meat only society with only the few ranches we find in the world? Really? And do you honestly think only one smelter located in the middle of a city would be capable of creating all of the massive charr vehicles we see? Plus, let's be honest, do the Watchknights look anything close to charr technology? Their work is far more brutish and crude, not to say it doesn't work, but the

human Watchknights look to require more finesse, more intricacy

than the general charr engineer could provide, especially at mass produced levels. But this doesn't matter. You have no interest in what others have to say on the matter or what valid points they bring up. I'm done with responding to you.

Really? If that is true, then the production of each Wathknight is very expensive. If that is the case, then Kryta is super rich since we're just bashing those watchnights to scraps during the jubilee. Yes, you don't have to respond.

I mean... you saw the Pavillion, right?

Everything

about the Jubilee speaks to obscene amounts of money being thrown around. If you're already spending enough to turn a several hundred foot sinkhole into an elaborate, artistic arena, and the surrounding residential neighborhood into gardens, and then only use any of it for a couple festivals a year... the expense of hand-crafted automatons isn't going to slow you down any.

The "artistic arena" is nothing original nor something unheard of before, but it is nothing but a Krytan version of the X-men's Danger Room. If you read the description about it, they are mesmer illusions, no different than the Danger Room's holographic projections to make the encounters and the danger look and feel real. That "artistic arena" is but an empty room with watchknight automatons. The only thing that is real is what's on top, not what's inside the hole. So I really doubt that they've thrown an "obscene amount of money" to it. Everything is run on illusion magic.

[Electra.7530]

I get that the Norn would seemingly side with the Charr because both races are big and strong. But, the two really don't have much in common. The Norn are more spiritual than the Charr and would likely have more spiritual in common with Humans and Sylvari. The Norns are great protectors more than the Charr. I see the Norns possibly coming to the aid of mankind against Charr depending on the circumstances of the conflict. If the Charr became aggressive, the Norn quite possibly would rally to man's aid. If the Charr conquer mankind, who would they go after next? Sometimes a warring race needs to be kept in check.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Why is it so hard to accept that humans (and any other race) have the capacity to learn and advance?

Just like charr have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of magic (As evidenced by Guardians in the Iron Legion, and Necromancers in Ash), humans have the capacity to advance and learn in regards to the use of engineering which eventually birthed the Watchknight.

Why is it also so hard to understand that in game locations are in actuality much bigger in the lore? Divinity's Reach is made to hold "hundreds of thousands", it's in game representation certainly cannot. So why is it so hard to imagine that there are indeed the facilities required to completely construct Watchknights in house?

That is because of lack of evidence in game and in the lore. The only evidence we can find is that humans are faith-based society that focused on magic instead of engineering. By contrast, the Charrs distrust magic so they focused on engineering. The evidence to support those are all over the game and in the lore. Yes some Charr uses magic but not at the level of the Flame Legion or humans, and yes humans have engineers but not at the level to rival the Charrs'. The only real evidence is that human can build stuff, but the only human that actually focused on engineering is a crazy person who built a mechanical band and a golem based on a stole design to abduct the queen. That's not really a convincing argument. Even though humans have the capacity to learn and advance, it doesn't necessarily means that they are willing to use those knowledge. It's the difference between knowing and doing. While the Charrs are building tanks, the humans are praying in their shrines.

Now the humans supposedly have designed and built the Watchknights. Why now? Why not 250 years ago? According to the arguments written in this discussion, humans are capable of doing so seeing how advanced the Luxons were and how the Istani made mechanical toys. Yet, for the last 250 years, Kryta only managed to built Divinity's Reach and places shrines of the gods all over the city. Take note the name of the city, Divinity's Reach, it's appropriate to the kind of society the Krytans have become. My point is, the Watchknight came out of nowhere and was only created to setup the Living Story that, to be honest, ruined the lore for the sake of an ambitious goal of releasing content every 2 weeks. They made a Living Story with no regards to the established lore which gives me plenty of reason to be skeptic.

Maybe they didn't build them 250 years ago because the steam creatures were a recent creation, and they were what prompted the idea in the first place? Perhaps it was a lack of inspiration, not a lack of capability?

That is more the reason that humans are incapable of creating them themselves prior to the existence of the steam creature. However, I doubt that.

They simply have no way to fabricate the parts or how to convert a clock works mechanism into a combat-ready automaton.

For 250 years, humans are still using ballista and catapults while Charr are using cannons and tanks. You're basically looking at a showdown between the Roman Empire and the 1914 German Empire.

Plus all you have to do it look at the Upper City in Divinity' reach to know that humanity has the ability to make grand mechanical contraptions.

For the last 250 years, they just now realize that the citizens of Divinity's Reach needs the Watchknight for protection. Protection against what exactly? The war is over. However the timing of it is suspect. It is plausible that the only reason that the humans were able to build the Watchknight is due to the human-Charr peace treaty allowing the humans access to the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. I mean they are at war with the Charr for that long and they never thought about building weapons of war that can rival the Charrs? Even suspending my disbelief that narrative simple makes no sense. What makes sense is that, as an act of good faith, humans are purchasing Charr goods, ordering ironwork parts, and even collaborating in the Watchknight design. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I'm sure ArenaNet can come up with a better narrative like attacking Mord in the heart of Maguuma with the whole Pact fleet with zero intelligence information because nobody bother to send out a recon team ahead of the fleet. Yup that makes total sense, the commander is incompetent in commanding an army.

Maybe what you need to remember is that what is shown in the game isn't necessarily everything that exists in Tyria. You act like humans can't use or create advanced machinery when based on the ghosts we can see at Grendich in ascalon, we can see that humans had access to cannons before the Foefire even, that's not even including the differing war weapons found by other human kingdoms. We also have evidence of humans working with clockwork technology through the Upper City and the Band and humans have also been seen infusing magic into items since early in the game through many, many experiences in GW1, with the miniatures being the example of their magic giving a semblance of life to the items they imbue. It is far easier, from what we have experienced in both games, to believe that humans were able to create the Watchknights from some forge that we just don't see in game than it was to believe that the barbaric Charr that we met in Guild Wars 1 were able to create the massive industrial society that we see today. You can't accept one hard to believe situation without a doubt and refuse to believe the other.

I never said that they can't create advance machinery, since it's fairly obvious that they can create a siege engine. However, the cannons in Ascalon are stolen Charr weapons.

What I've been saying is that they didn't focused on it because they focused instead on their faith, which means they never made a facility to produce the parts to make any modern weapon for war.

To build a single Watchknight, they have to mass produce the gears and other parts that goes in it...where did they mass produced those parts? Divinity's Reach only have local blacksmiths. The only plausible source of mass produced parts is the Black Citadel's Imperial Smelter. So seeing that there are many Watchknights that we can beat up to scraps for fun shows that mass producing the parts are very important, otherwise it would be very expensive and if it is expensive, we would not be allowed to beat them up for fun. Not only mass producing the parts, but also mass producing the Watchknights. Where are all these things coming from?

I love that you ignore the point that I made that we obviously don't see everything that exists in Tyria in the game. I mean could you really call Kryta a kingdom if it controlled such small landmass? Only like 5-10 villages with nowhere near enough farming and agriculture to support what exists? Charr are capable of surviving as a mostly meat only society with only the few ranches we find in the world? Really? And do you honestly think only one smelter located in the middle of a city would be capable of creating all of the massive charr vehicles we see? Plus, let's be honest, do the Watchknights look anything close to charr technology? Their work is far more brutish and crude, not to say it doesn't work, but the

human Watchknights look to require more finesse, more intricacy

than the general charr engineer could provide, especially at mass produced levels. But this doesn't matter. You have no interest in what others have to say on the matter or what valid points they bring up. I'm done with responding to you.

Really? If that is true, then the production of each Wathknight is very expensive. If that is the case, then Kryta is super rich since we're just bashing those watchnights to scraps during the jubilee. Yes, you don't have to respond.

I mean... you saw the Pavillion, right?

Everything

about the Jubilee speaks to obscene amounts of money being thrown around. If you're already spending enough to turn a several hundred foot sinkhole into an elaborate, artistic arena, and the surrounding residential neighborhood into gardens, and then only use any of it for a couple festivals a year... the expense of hand-crafted automatons isn't going to slow you down any.

The "artistic arena" is nothing original nor something unheard of before, but it is nothing but a Krytan version of the X-men's Danger Room. If you read the description about it, they are mesmer illusions, no different than the Danger Room's holographic projections to make the encounters and the danger look and feel real. That "artistic arena" is but an empty room with watchknight automatons. The only thing that is real is what's on top, not what's inside the hole. So I really doubt that they've thrown an "obscene amount of money" to it. Everything is run on illusion magic.

Wow, you completely missed the point.

The engineering knowledge required to build the arena is what is being referenced.